Program Notes
Guest speaker: Keeper Trout
Year this lecture was recorded: 2017
The wonderful Keeper Trout shares with us today includes his experiences archiving the files of Dr. Alexander Shulgin, working to collect the chemistry of psychedelic plants and medicines (particularly mescaline containing plants), and the cultural and legal history of the Native use of peyote and cactus as well as its suppression by the United States government. Keeper Trout is a multifaceted and delightful character who gives us today’s engaging interview.
See Trout’s work on Shulgin’s archive here:
www.shulginarchive.org
More about his work conserving the cactus here:
www.cactusconservation.org
And his own excellent and thorough work on the chemistry and history of use of psychedelics:
http://Troutsnotes.com
Also, here is the article in which Keeper mentioned: Hallucinations of Neutrality in the Oregon Peyote Case, by Harry F. Tepker, Jr.
https://works.bepress.com/harry\_f\_tepker/23/
To support the Psychedelic Salon 2.0 broadcast, join the No Nonsense! Club on Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/NoNonsense
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space.
00:00:19 ►
This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in Psychedelic Salon 2.0.
00:00:24 ►
And I’m really looking forward to listening to today’s podcast with you.
00:00:28 ►
It comes to us once again from Lex Pelger, who has interviewed one of my all-time psychedelic heroes, Keeper Trout.
00:00:36 ►
I can no longer remember when and where we first met,
00:00:40 ►
but for a while it seemed as if we would meet at almost every event that I attended for
00:00:45 ►
several years. You know, it’s sometimes the little things about an interaction with someone that
00:00:50 ►
sticks with you the most. Although I can remember being blown away by Trout’s knowledge about all
00:00:56 ►
aspects of psychedelics, which I recall him demonstrating several times at MindStates
00:01:01 ►
conferences. It was an offhand conversation that we had somewhere.
00:01:06 ►
Maybe it was at Burning Man.
00:01:08 ►
But I remember talking to Trout about the work several people were doing
00:01:12 ►
to develop a truly instant-on small portable vaporizer.
00:01:17 ►
Now, over the years, as I’ve gone through a series of maybe five or six portable vaporizers,
00:01:23 ►
I always recall that conversation and how
00:01:26 ►
insistent Trout was on not accepting anything less than what was perfect. And so now, each day as I
00:01:33 ►
use my wonderful little Pax ERA vaporizer, I think of Kay Trout and how pleased I assume he would be
00:01:40 ►
at this amazing little piece of technology. In my opinion, it’s the ultimate technological development that has come around during my
00:01:48 ►
entire lifetime, and that includes tablet computers, web phones, and the internet.
00:01:55 ►
But hey, I’m not just an electrical engineer, I’m also a professional stoner, so I come
00:02:00 ►
to this conclusion with some experience under my belt.
00:02:04 ►
And before I turn the microphone over to Lex,
00:02:07 ►
and since I’m already talking about cannabis, my most important ally,
00:02:12 ►
and since there hasn’t been any good opportunity for me to pass this along to you before now,
00:02:17 ►
I want to read a single paragraph from my latest, most favorite book.
00:02:22 ►
The book is titled, A Renegade History of the United States
00:02:26 ►
and is by Thaddeus Russell.
00:02:29 ►
And while I haven’t quite finished reading it yet,
00:02:31 ►
I’m very close to saying that it may be an even more important book to read
00:02:36 ►
than Howard Zinn’s People’s History of the U.S.,
00:02:39 ►
which I’ve been talking about here in the salon for many years.
00:02:43 ►
And the reason that I think that you will like the Renegade History book so much Here in the Salon At least that’s how I see it. So now I’m going to read you a single paragraph from that book,
00:03:07 ►
just to see if it’s something that you already knew.
00:03:09 ►
And if not, maybe you want to read this book.
00:03:11 ►
I quote now,
00:03:16 ►
Marijuana had been effectively outlawed in 1937, but during the war, all American farmers were required to attend showings of the USDA film,
00:03:23 ►
Hemp for Victory.
00:03:26 ►
Sign that they had seen the film,
00:03:33 ►
and read a hemp cultivation booklet. Hemp harvesting machinery was made available at a low or no cost. Farmers who agreed to grow hemp were waived from serving in the military,
00:03:40 ►
along with their sons. During the war, 350,000 acres of marijuana were cultivated for the war effort,
00:03:48 ►
and the seeds for the pot culture of post-war America were literally planted.
00:03:54 ►
End quote.
00:03:56 ►
Now you’ll have to read that entire chapter to put this into a better perspective
00:04:00 ►
about what was going on in World War II,
00:04:03 ►
but if you have not yet seen Hemp
00:04:05 ►
for Victory, well, you might want to go out to YouTube and give it a look. Instead of seeing
00:04:10 ►
fields of waving grain, you’ll see fields of waving hemp, and it’s a beautiful sight to behold.
00:04:17 ►
Just think of how wonderful our forests could be today if instead of cutting down trees for
00:04:22 ►
paper products, we were still using hemp.
00:04:26 ►
But I digress.
00:04:30 ►
So now let me turn the microphone over to Lex Pelger,
00:04:33 ►
and along with you, I’m going to be listening to Lex chatting with one of our most important psychedelic elders, Keeper Trout.
00:04:48 ►
This is a Non-Nonsense production.
00:04:53 ►
If you like what you hear and want to help us make the Salon 2.0 bigger and better,
00:04:58 ►
sign up to support this work monthly on patreon.com.
00:05:02 ►
As a two-person production, any help goes a long way. Join us at patreon.com slash nononsense.
00:05:11 ►
I’m Lex Pelger, and this is a Psychedelic Salon 2.0.
00:05:19 ►
Keeper Trout is an invaluable asset to the psychedelic community.
00:05:24 ►
As the archivist of the work of Alexander Shulgin,
00:05:27 ►
he’s preserving Sasha’s immense contributions to chemistry,
00:05:31 ►
as well as digitizing all of the history stored up in those file cabinets.
00:05:36 ►
Keeper Trout is also the author of a number of books
00:05:39 ►
that would be of interest to our listeners.
00:05:41 ►
I’ve had his Some Simple Tryptamines on my reference shelf for
00:05:45 ►
many years, and it’s an intriguing mix of chemistry, folklore, and his own insights.
00:05:52 ►
In this episode, we spend a lot of time talking about the history of the native use of mescaline
00:05:57 ►
containing compounds, and the heinous response by the United States government to a religion they found threatening.
00:06:08 ►
We’ll be linking to all this work in the episode notes.
00:06:13 ►
I certainly enjoyed this conversation because it’s always a pleasure to talk to someone as knowledgeable and enthusiastic as the venerable Keeper Trout.
00:06:22 ►
All right.
00:06:23 ►
I am Lex Pelger.
00:06:24 ►
I have the Psychedelic Salon 2.0, and I am very happy to have Keeper Trout here on the show today.
00:06:30 ►
Hello.
00:06:31 ►
Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Your work has been impressing me for a long time.
00:06:35 ►
I’m actually holding my copy of the second edition of Some Simple Tryptamines right here, which is an amazing piece of work.
00:06:43 ►
Well, thanks. Thanks for having me.
00:06:46 ►
No problem.
00:06:47 ►
First, I wanted to hear about your current stuff
00:06:51 ►
in working in Sasha Shulgin’s archives and digitizing that.
00:06:57 ►
Yeah, right now I’m working as the director of the digitization of Sasha’s archives.
00:07:04 ►
Our end goal is putting it online in a fully accessible public database,
00:07:10 ►
obviously with some private information redacted,
00:07:14 ►
but we’re trying to get the entire thing online.
00:07:17 ►
And just to give you an idea of this,
00:07:19 ►
we’re well over halfway there with the file cabinets.
00:07:23 ►
Wow. well over halfway there with the file cabinets. And then we got the barn and what’s necessary for
00:07:28 ►
the bookshelves. But some of the material’s already done. All but one of the lab books is
00:07:35 ►
not just finished, but is already up on both archive and Arrowwood. So we’re making really
00:07:41 ►
good progress. And for everybody at home, what I was looking at was I think a bunch of filing cabinets from A through Z through double G of filing cabinets.
00:07:51 ►
Right.
00:07:52 ►
Filled with material from the godfather of Shulginism himself.
00:07:57 ►
Yeah.
00:07:57 ►
Each one of those little rectangles was a file cabinet drawer.
00:08:02 ►
Wow.
00:08:02 ►
So, yeah, it’s a lot of material.
00:08:05 ►
But it’s some exciting stuff too
00:08:07 ►
because it’s not just science.
00:08:09 ►
It’s a lot of cultural history
00:08:11 ►
and social history of the interactions
00:08:14 ►
of drugs and civilization and humans.
00:08:19 ►
And the really fascinating thing
00:08:21 ►
that makes it a really unique collection
00:08:22 ►
is it’s broken apart
00:08:24 ►
where it has this
00:08:25 ►
sort of cultural and social look from the point of view of one molecule or class of molecules
00:08:32 ►
at a time. And I’ve never seen anything like this. I mean, he’s got like 69 folders on just MDMA.
00:08:41 ►
And then I think there’s half a dozen folders on TMA, another half a dozen folders on
00:08:47 ►
methamphetamine. But it’s literally that level of a broken apart look. But from the point of
00:08:55 ►
view of the molecules, it’s just, it’s really going to keep some historians busy for decades.
00:09:01 ►
And what’s it like for you, you know, the speed of wanting to get this stuff scanned in,
00:09:05 ►
but also the pleasure of wanting to stop and read so much? Oh, I don’t have time to read. I wish I
00:09:11 ►
did. But it’s just, it’s exciting. You know, I love doing mindless, repetitive tasks, because I
00:09:19 ►
find it very relaxing. And so I’m in heaven. You know. I’m working with material that’s fascinating to me.
00:09:26 ►
I’m working with people that I love, some of my best friends on the planet. And so,
00:09:32 ►
yeah, for me, it’s a dream job. That sounds great. And how did you get
00:09:36 ►
involved with this project? Totally accidentally. When Sasha was alive,
00:09:41 ►
he was urging me to stop by and copy his mescaline and peyote cabinets.
00:09:48 ►
And I never got around to doing this.
00:09:50 ►
And then after he died, Tanya was reminding me I needed to get this completed because there was some uncertainties about what was happening with everything.
00:09:59 ►
And when Earth heard I was doing this, Arrowood offered to start paying me for doing this.
00:10:05 ►
So I was actually starting to do this just for myself, and it unintentionally turned into a job.
00:10:12 ►
And then when things started getting reorganized for actually paid workers doing the digitization
00:10:19 ►
and the archiving material, I was one of the people.
00:10:23 ►
And so it was just a matter of lucky placement.
00:10:26 ►
That’s great.
00:10:27 ►
I can’t imagine someone better for the job either.
00:10:29 ►
And I wanted to ask, for all of these listeners at home that might be interested,
00:10:33 ►
is there ways that people can help?
00:10:34 ►
Sure.
00:10:35 ►
We have a donation page at www.shulginarchives.org.
00:10:43 ►
Shulgin Archives.
00:10:45 ►
Sorry, Shulgin Archives dot O-R-G.
00:10:48 ►
And there’s a PayPal link at the bottom.
00:10:51 ►
We heard people were having trouble accessing it with mobile devices,
00:10:56 ►
and I believe that’s been fixed.
00:10:58 ►
But if not, if somebody could just drop me an email and let me know they had trouble,
00:11:02 ►
we’ll be sure to take care of it.
00:11:04 ►
But, yeah, it’s a seriously exciting project because it’s not just, like I say, it’s not just science.
00:11:11 ►
It’s Sasha’s notes, observations, photographs, recollections, his travel notes.
00:11:19 ►
I think he has around 200 conferences that he saved information from and material going back into the 80s.
00:11:29 ►
So it’s really some exciting material.
00:11:33 ►
Like I said, the one thing that’s really evident about it is right now we’re all too close to this material to actually understand the significance of it.
00:11:45 ►
And after some decades pass, I think that’s when people are really going to grasp the significance of it.
00:11:51 ►
Because we’re immersed right now in the same time stream.
00:11:56 ►
And so we don’t have any possibility of being objective.
00:12:00 ►
This is just material we love and are interested with.
00:12:04 ►
You know, this is just material we love and are interested with.
00:12:10 ►
But as far as, you know, the true value of it, that’s going to be for the future to sort out.
00:12:12 ►
I’m glad you’re there saving it.
00:12:20 ►
And your true area of expertise seems to be around the cacti and mesclun-containing materials.
00:12:24 ►
How did your journey start with these?
00:12:26 ►
Oh, that’s a really good question. Um, with the mescaline containing cactus, it started with reading back when I was a teenager
00:12:32 ►
and an order placed to a company called Swamp Fox that used to be in Texas. And this is, you know,
00:12:40 ►
early seventies. And so they were who I bought my first sections of the San Pedro cactus from,
00:12:48 ►
sent to me in a little tube in the mail.
00:12:51 ►
I think it was like 1973.
00:12:55 ►
But, yeah, I love cactus,
00:12:56 ►
and I’ve gotten involved with an organization called the Cactus Conservation Institute
00:13:01 ►
where we’re actually working on putting out good science
00:13:05 ►
around the Lophophora species, most specifically peyote. Not just, you know, environmental issues,
00:13:14 ►
but also it intersects with politics and some very important issues as far as indigenous culture and religious freedoms.
00:13:26 ►
And so it’s quite a complex area, but we’re doing our best to do good science
00:13:31 ►
and keep putting out papers in this area just so that there is good science
00:13:36 ►
that policymakers have to refer to.
00:13:38 ►
Though it must be frustrating how often they don’t refer to it.
00:13:43 ►
Oh, for sure.
00:13:42 ►
and how often they don’t refer to it.
00:13:44 ►
Oh, for sure.
00:13:50 ►
But that’s been, you know, I’m doing a lot of work looking at the early history of peyote persecution, and it’s been true since the beginning.
00:13:54 ►
The courts, outside of very few instances, the courts have been supportive and protective
00:14:00 ►
of Native American religious rights from the very beginning. And no matter how many times the Native American church or Native Americans have won in the courts,
00:14:11 ►
their opponents, who are largely Protestant Christians, figure out how to mount their next attack.
00:14:18 ►
And this has been going on every decade of the last century.
00:14:23 ►
I mean, and it’s sort of baffling. You would think of a person
00:14:26 ►
won once or two dozen times in courts. Their opponents would accept that as meaning the
00:14:32 ►
courts support them and would stop attacking them and trying to find ways of tripping them up.
00:14:37 ►
But that’s not what’s occurring here. I mean, even the thing with the Smith case in the 90s,
00:14:43 ►
a lot of people don’t understand that wasn’t about peyote.
00:14:46 ►
That was about unemployment benefits.
00:14:49 ►
And Justice Scalia turned it into being about peyote.
00:14:53 ►
And the legal observers of the day accused Scalia of doing that deliberately as a stalking horse to take out the compelling interest test, which is what,
00:15:07 ►
in fact, it did. And one of the things that was also missed by a lot of observers,
00:15:12 ►
the precedent that Scalia said that the court had never deviated from this opinion,
00:15:18 ►
but the reality was… What was the opinion?
00:15:21 ►
Well, no, the opinion was that individual religious rights can’t take
00:15:27 ►
priority over you know the federal state’s interests that you know there’s basically
00:15:33 ►
there’s nothing that says that you can’t hold religious beliefs but acting out on them when
00:15:39 ►
they violate the law is the line that Scalia said that the courts had never allowed to be crossed,
00:15:46 ►
which actually not only wasn’t true, but he based his precedents on a case that had been overturned
00:15:53 ►
three years after the decision and failed to mention that he was basing the precedents on
00:15:58 ►
an overturned case. So there was a lot of dirty shenanigans about the Smith case in the first place.
00:16:09 ►
But unfortunately, the Supreme Court is the last line.
00:16:13 ►
So there’s nobody there’s nobody to appeal to at this point.
00:16:19 ►
But people should understand that that’s actually what happened in that case.
00:16:25 ►
It’s not at all what a lot of people think it was, which was just a decision about peyote that went against peyote. Because there was no way Smith could actually win that one. Why is that? Well,
00:16:30 ►
it’s basically, it wasn’t about religious rights. It was about, am I entitled to be given state
00:16:38 ►
unemployment benefits for being fired as a drug counselor for using drugs on the job after being told I couldn’t.
00:16:48 ►
He never at any point sued for his job back.
00:16:51 ►
The entire thing was only going after unemployment benefits.
00:16:55 ►
So he actually wasn’t suing for wrongful termination.
00:16:59 ►
So that’s why I say he couldn’t have possibly won that case.
00:17:02 ►
And that’s why Scalia turned it into being about peyote because it was a sure win.
00:17:08 ►
Yeah, you can find out if you look for an author named Tepker, T-E-P-K-E-R.
00:17:15 ►
There’s a really lovely piece online that he wrote in the 90s called Hallucinations of Neutrality in the Smith Case. And it’s really
00:17:27 ►
worth reading because he breaks it down in detail about the dirty shenanigans that Scalia pulled in
00:17:35 ►
this case. Wow. That’s a great title. Oh, it is. It is. And it’s a great piece. I mean, it’s long,
00:17:42 ►
but it’s like, for legal reading, it’s almost riveting reading.
00:17:46 ►
And that was one of my questions about your work, looking at something like some simple
00:17:50 ►
tryptamines, which is very, very scientific with some great humor thrown in as well, which
00:17:56 ►
is fascinating.
00:17:57 ►
Thanks.
00:17:57 ►
But to do something that is so rationalistic, scientific in nature, while also learning
00:18:04 ►
about the history of
00:18:05 ►
native use of these medicines. What’s that like for you?
00:18:10 ►
It’s complex and interesting, but I’m sort of obsessed with learning and acquiring new
00:18:16 ►
information. So it’s lovely. It’s a lot of fun. But it’s also disturbing and somewhat discouraging when I
00:18:28 ►
look at the forces and the money that’s being directed against this. There isn’t a power base
00:18:35 ►
actually supporting or protective of this area, whereas the opponents are not just huge, but well-funded. And it’s included some of the most disturbing and disgusting reading
00:18:49 ►
that I’ve done in my entire life because it’s so heavily imbued with racism and just cultural
00:18:56 ►
biases and dismissive attitudes of elitist arrogance that it’s just bothersome. And so I’ll actually be glad to be done with this and move on.
00:19:08 ►
And it’s already produced two pieces, one of which Martin Terry and I wrote.
00:19:15 ►
He was the lead author, and it was just published in the Journal of the Botanical Research Institute of Texas
00:19:20 ►
in the current issue. And it’s about this same issue about, I believe it’s called
00:19:29 ►
the triumph of religion and politics over science and medicine.
00:19:37 ►
And then there’s another piece that’s coming out that was part of a presentation I gave to the
00:19:42 ►
Ethnopharmacological Search for Psychoactive Drugs Conference in England back in June.
00:19:49 ►
And that’s going to print as a written version of the presentation, and it’s going to come out in hard copy before the end of the year.
00:19:57 ►
And so that’s more on the same disturbing saga of early peyote persecution.
00:20:06 ►
That is sad.
00:20:08 ►
And what is the – who are these well-funded opponents,
00:20:11 ►
and what tactics do they take?
00:20:15 ►
Well, it’s largely industrialists and bankers and always has been.
00:20:22 ►
It’s people who are basically holding a Christian ideology,
00:20:26 ►
usually Protestant in nature, and convinced that the world would be benefited if they believed
00:20:32 ►
exactly the same thing. So there’s a lot of people who are actively involved with this,
00:20:37 ►
like the Koch brothers influencing the last election by pumping ungodly amounts of money into the elections at county, state, and federal
00:20:47 ►
levels and causing a total upset in terms of Republican majorities all across the country.
00:20:53 ►
And that was largely funded by two people. But this has been the case since the word go,
00:21:08 ►
word go is it’s the power the people who have money in this country are have traditionally largely been christian and protestants and they’ve used that money to promote their ideology
00:21:15 ►
it’s partially through hiring people to write newspaper articles and magazine articles. And there’s a surge in popular articles in not just
00:21:26 ►
magazines, but newspapers appearing around and during almost every period, if not every period
00:21:34 ►
of congressional deliberation. There was actually political letter writing machines that were
00:21:41 ►
created early in the last century that were flooding the various
00:21:46 ►
government agencies with, you know, just massive amounts of mail trying to influence legislation.
00:21:53 ►
When they actually got a commissioner of Indian affairs, John Collier, who had a respect for
00:22:00 ►
Native Americans, the whole of his department turned against him because they’re basically
00:22:05 ►
staffed from missionary groups from the word go. And it wasn’t that this was done maliciously.
00:22:13 ►
You know, when Grant had the idea of coming up with the notion of the Board of Indian Commissioners,
00:22:18 ►
he decided that they needed to be Christians simply because there were so many people that
00:22:23 ►
were ripping off, shortchanging, and cheating Native Americans.
00:22:27 ►
And so he thought that he could guarantee more honest representation if the 10-member board
00:22:36 ►
was drawn entirely from the Quakers because he thought the Quakers could bring peace to the Indians.
00:22:43 ►
Now, the problem was the other Protestant groups
00:22:46 ►
wouldn’t have any part of this. And so you had the Baptists, the Methodists, and the Presbyterians
00:22:51 ►
all wanting a piece of the pie. And so it turned into this sort of scrapping war over control,
00:22:58 ►
where everybody wanted control over a reservation, whether they had the resources or not. And then
00:23:03 ►
after they found out they couldn’t really handle it, then they started swapping reservations with each other in terms of
00:23:10 ►
who got more convenient oversight. But from the word go, it’s been predominantly Protestant
00:23:17 ►
missionary groups that have not just run the Bureau of Indian Affairs, but also the prohibitionist mentality among them
00:23:29 ►
has focused on getting their members elected to government. And by the beginning of the last
00:23:36 ►
century, they’d succeeded in getting political predominance in the government. So we started
00:23:42 ►
seeing the Harrison Act come through, we saw prohibition happen. And then the decade after that, we saw other drugs get added,
00:23:51 ►
and it’s continued to escalate ever since then. But the goal is, you know,
00:23:57 ►
worldwide was worldwide prohibition of all intoxicants, not just one or two.
00:24:09 ►
intoxicants, not just one or two. What a shame. What would you see as the state of peyote use in North America now? Well, the big problem with it is it’s not being cultivated. It has a limited
00:24:17 ►
life unless something changes. We really don’t know how many people are using peyote. We don’t really know how much peyote is being harvested.
00:24:27 ►
The only harvests that leave records are the licensed harvesters,
00:24:32 ►
which now is apparently four people.
00:24:36 ►
I’m not sure about the new one.
00:24:39 ►
She’s doing advertising, so there’s clearly number four advertising.
00:24:44 ►
She’s doing advertising, so there’s clearly a number four advertising.
00:24:53 ►
But the biggest challenge in my mind is that the movement seems to be trying to open up Mexico as a source of peyote for north of the border, peyote users.
00:25:01 ►
And considering how badly the populations in Texas have been addressed,
00:25:06 ►
I’m not sure that does a favor to Mexican peyote people, who surely have as much right to the
00:25:13 ►
Mexican peyote as anybody north of the border. Now, it’s a tricky picture because it’s actually
00:25:20 ►
land loss, not over-harvesting, that’s caused the problems. The vast majority,
00:25:27 ►
possibly as much as 90 to 95 percent of all peyote land has been destroyed in the course
00:25:34 ►
of creating pastures, orchards, shopping centers, building projects, or just root plowing to remove
00:25:41 ►
thorny brush. And so with the vast destruction of habitat,
00:25:46 ►
it pushes people into relying on smaller areas to harvest from. And that’s where overharvesting
00:25:53 ►
has become such a big problem. You know, peyote is a very resilient and rugged species.
00:25:59 ►
And if a person waits long enough, which seems to be somewhere between six and eight years between harvests, it is sustainable.
00:26:08 ►
But when there’s pressure to return and harvest buttons the size of a quarter, then clearly it’s not sustainable.
00:26:16 ►
And within the next generation or two, people are really going to have some problems having adequate source of their medicine.
00:26:21 ►
having adequate source of their medicine.
00:26:24 ►
So that’s one of the things we’re trying to work with with Cactus Conservation Institute
00:26:27 ►
is just help with better education,
00:26:30 ►
help people with information.
00:26:32 ►
Members of the Native American church
00:26:34 ►
that are interested in cultivation,
00:26:37 ►
we’re happy to help them with technical information
00:26:39 ►
and basically anything we can do to be of assistance.
00:26:43 ►
That’s great.
00:26:44 ►
Among the wheat shoulders,
00:26:46 ►
often guidelines about the size of what you can harvest isn’t correct?
00:26:52 ►
Yeah.
00:26:52 ►
Well, I think that’s anybody with any sense follows that.
00:26:58 ►
And the peyote distributors were also up until the 90s
00:27:03 ►
when they started having trouble getting enough
00:27:06 ►
buttons, at which point they started harvesting smaller ones. And of course, this is a classical
00:27:13 ►
model, whether it’s fish or ginseng, when things start getting over harvested, the numbers go up
00:27:19 ►
and the sizes go down. And that’s just what’s happened with peyote. But it’s something where the Native
00:27:26 ►
American churches, you know, getting really concerned, and they’re starting to do studies
00:27:32 ►
of their own practices and of their own needs. And so there’s a lot of real encouraging
00:27:37 ►
glimmerings on the horizon. Now, what it works into, only the future is going to tell. But,
00:27:47 ►
now what it works into only the future is going to tell but you know we’re not talking people that are blind you know it’s just uh it’s a problem when you have faith in something and you believe
00:27:54 ►
in the power of the medicine to protect itself and i believe in that too but i also believe that
00:28:02 ►
the medicine has the power to protect itself by enlisting people,
00:28:06 ►
because we have voices and we have hands and we have feet and we can accomplish work that plants
00:28:12 ►
can’t. And so we’re part of the picture too. But you know, the people who are out there caring
00:28:19 ►
about the plants, I believe we’re enlisted by the plants. I think they run the show, not us.
00:28:26 ►
That makes a lot of sense. We’re just here following plants’ orders.
00:28:30 ►
There’s even some theories that we were just brought about to spread seeds for plants.
00:28:35 ►
I can’t argue with that. I don’t have any way of knowing one way or the other.
00:28:39 ►
Now, if you were put in charge of all of this, what technical guidelines or ways of practice would you like to see to help create a sustainable peyote harvest and stave off a peyote crisis?
00:28:53 ►
Well, the biggest thing is wildcrafting and cultivation.
00:28:59 ►
And wildcrafting is technically cultivation, but it occurs from planting in a natural outdoor
00:29:07 ►
situation. And both of those could in fact occur. Now it’s sort of fascinating in that there’s been
00:29:14 ►
some trials of people distributing seeds and concluding, and not peyote, but astrophytum,
00:29:22 ►
and concluding that the loss rate was too high from seedling
00:29:27 ►
distribution compared to planting out seedlings. But if you actually look at their percentages,
00:29:33 ►
their percentages of their seedlings are actually far higher than what’s believed to be the natural
00:29:39 ►
recruitment of seedlings. So I’d say that even though the numbers are low,
00:29:46 ►
it still shows it’s perfectly successful even from broadcasting seeds. So if people are starting
00:29:52 ►
with seedlings and transplanting seedlings out into suitable locations and then letting them
00:29:58 ►
establish, there could be a good future within this next generation.
00:30:07 ►
And that really is where the future is.
00:30:14 ►
Because peyote is not reestablishing anywhere that it’s been removed from. A lot of people believe peyote gets spread around by birds and that birds are responsible for distributing it.
00:30:21 ►
But if that was true, peyote would be coming back in areas it’s been removed
00:30:26 ►
from because it’s been missing from some areas for decades. And there’s no evidence that peyote
00:30:32 ►
is recovering in anywhere where it’s been over harvested or where there’s been land conversion.
00:30:39 ►
Now, we do know of some spots towards West Texas where it appears people simply stopped harvesting many decades ago, and peyote’s grown back there from seed.
00:30:52 ►
And so the seed, you know, the seed resilience of peyote is huge.
00:30:58 ►
And so I believe that is where the answer is, is, you know, a combination of wildcrafting and cultivation, but not cultivation
00:31:07 ►
of pumped up plants like they’re growing in Europe where the alkaloid level is low.
00:31:13 ►
People are using peyote for medicine. They actually need it to be potent,
00:31:17 ►
which requires it to be grown similarly to how it’s grown in nature, which is experiencing six
00:31:23 ►
to nine or more months of drought stress out
00:31:26 ►
of every year. What a plant to be able to take that. Oh, yeah. It’s incredible. I mean, it can
00:31:31 ►
be buried, totally buried from one year to the next, and it’ll outgrow it. Somehow, we’ve noticed
00:31:39 ►
that the pups that come out of the base underground are green before they get to the surface of the soil.
00:31:49 ►
And I don’t even know how that works.
00:31:52 ►
But, yeah, we found like green heads almost two inches deep before, you know, just doing excavations.
00:31:59 ►
So they’re amazingly resilient plants.
00:32:01 ►
And I believe with just a little bit of co-partnership,
00:32:07 ►
peyote will be here for the Native American church as long as there’s a Native American church.
00:32:11 ►
That would be great. And so to pivot a little bit to another cacti, maybe you could explain
00:32:19 ►
your work around San Pedro and trying to define what that actually means when you use the term San Pedro.
00:32:26 ►
Well, one problem is that we’ve got this thing in cultivation that grows super fast and is rather
00:32:33 ►
weak. And there’s a lot of aspects about it that suggest it’s a hybrid. Now, we don’t know the details, and hopefully someday we will through genetics work.
00:32:46 ►
But the bottom line is it’s not what shamans in South America use.
00:32:53 ►
They use something that is much more potent.
00:32:58 ►
And I believe that’s the reason that we still have the tricocerius is the potent ones do not predominate. If they
00:33:07 ►
predominated, I have no illusion that they would have been made illegal years ago, just like peyote.
00:33:13 ►
But, you know, the reality is the predominant clone is incredibly weak. Sometimes it’s totally
00:33:20 ►
inactive. And so it’s just, I believe it’s important people understand what plants are
00:33:27 ►
used by shamans if they’re actually using the plants for those purposes.
00:33:32 ►
And what’s the difference in mescaline levels between very potent and a weak clone?
00:33:39 ►
A hundred to one, as far as what’s been, well, actually, in terms of what’s been reported,
00:33:46 ►
to one as far as what’s been well actually in terms of what’s been reported some are zero so you can’t really say something’s more times than zero because it’s infinity but there’s been plants
00:33:54 ►
were on the outer the outer portion of them it’s been shown to be in excess of six percent there’s
00:34:01 ►
been plants for five percent around six and then there’s plants that have also been shown to be like 0.01%.
00:34:09 ►
So you’re talking a huge disparity between high and low,
00:34:15 ►
from some percent down to hundreds of a percent.
00:34:20 ►
So you are talking about hundreds of times worth of differences between the two ends.
00:34:24 ►
That’s a lot of eating in ceremony.
00:34:27 ►
It’s the same with peyote, though.
00:34:28 ►
If you look at the high and the low numbers with peyote, there’s a 63 times difference between the highest and the lowest numbers.
00:34:39 ►
And when you have pumped up cultivated plants, they’re going to tend towards the low end,
00:34:44 ►
have pumped up cultivated plants, they’re going to tend towards the low end,
00:34:51 ►
which is why cultivation, the way that people cultivate ornamental plants, is not going to be satisfactory for medicine use by the Native American church.
00:34:56 ►
They’re going to find the material produced would be completely unsatisfactory.
00:35:02 ►
And it’s the same with San Pedro, partially because the content is lower,
00:35:07 ►
but also because it tastes different. And a lot of people, especially from a Western ideology,
00:35:13 ►
don’t reflect on taste being part of the experience. And so if you’re giving somebody
00:35:18 ►
a surrogate for their medicine, and it weak and tastes different and smells different and looks
00:35:26 ►
different they’re it’s not going to be their medicine you know because most indigenous people
00:35:34 ►
do not view things in a reductionist view where they’re thinking oh well this this cactus has
00:35:40 ►
mescaline too therefore i could swap it out with peyote. That’s something you run into in our
00:35:45 ►
culture. It’s a sort of one size fits all or we can substitute type of approach to reality.
00:35:53 ►
Yeah, that makes sense. Now, could you share a little bit for the listeners about the history
00:35:57 ►
of the Native American church and how it came about?
00:35:59 ►
Well, that’s a really good question because there’s a lot of different
00:36:03 ►
versions out there and I’m not sure exactly which version is true.
00:36:09 ►
Quanah Parker was involved, but there were several other indigenous people who were involved.
00:36:14 ►
James Mooney might have been involved, but how far it came from one person or another person remains to be seen.
00:36:26 ►
But basically, it was very clear that the Native American church was under attack by Protestants during that period. can interact with the government or any agency of the government unless they have a representative
00:36:48 ►
who’s capable of serving as the spokesperson for them. So you have to have an entity
00:36:55 ►
with some nature of leadership in order to be negotiated with. And so if you have no organized religion, there’s no chance of having your religion be
00:37:07 ►
respected. And so for any Native American religion to be respected in this country,
00:37:13 ►
it had to be organized. And so to be a church here, you need a charter, and you have to have bylaws. And that’s what they did is they basically,
00:37:27 ►
and if you look at the foundation of the Native American church, at no point in their first
00:37:34 ►
charter was peyote mentioned, you know, which is really wise. Wow. No, I didn’t know that.
00:37:41 ►
Another aspect that might sound a little dark, but I’d suggest it’s actually
00:37:47 ►
real. The Native American church was perceived of as a Christian organization in the same way that
00:37:54 ►
the Uniao de Vegetal and the Santo Daimes are perceived of as Christian organizations.
00:37:59 ►
I’d suggest that none of those groups would have enjoyed any respect or success if they had not been perceived of as Christian organizations.
00:38:10 ►
Now, that’s just my cynical take, but it’s just how it seems because any other group that hasn’t been has failed.
00:38:22 ►
So you suspect that they knew they had to play the game somewhat.
00:38:26 ►
Oh, yeah. Well, you have to. If you want to interact with the government, you have to.
00:38:30 ►
And it’s like right now, it’s been changed due to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act,
00:38:37 ►
where it’s no longer membership of a Native American church member that’s allowed to eat
00:38:43 ►
peyote. And it’s no longer based on a
00:38:46 ►
racial criteria because that was considered to be challengeable under a racist criteria.
00:38:52 ►
Instead, the people who are permitted to eat peyote now are members of federally recognized
00:38:58 ►
tribes. Now, that’s true whether or not their federally recognized tribe has ever eaten peyote in their history or not.
00:39:06 ►
And it’s considered to be non-discriminatory because it discriminates against Native Americans who belong to groups that were not federally recognized as tribes.
00:39:17 ►
And because it discriminates against them, it’s considered not to be a racist basis.
00:39:24 ►
Oh, it’s twisted.
00:39:25 ►
It’s really twisted because the reality is a lot of Native American groups
00:39:29 ►
weren’t tribal-based.
00:39:31 ►
They were band and group-based.
00:39:34 ►
You know, to have a tribe, you have to have like a designated permanent leader
00:39:37 ►
called a chief.
00:39:40 ►
And most groups didn’t do that.
00:39:45 ►
Most groups had leaders that sort of came and went and most groups didn’t do that.
00:39:49 ►
Most groups had leaders that sort of came and went,
00:39:50 ►
or if they had some sort of activity,
00:39:55 ►
somebody would be appointed as the leader during that activity.
00:39:58 ►
But that’s actually how a lot of people lived.
00:40:03 ►
The problem was when you came to interact with treaties with the U.S. government,
00:40:05 ►
they don’t want to talk to the whole group. You know, they don’t want to talk to everybody. They want to talk to one individual
00:40:09 ►
that can be spokesman for the group. So it’s sort of, so it’s a structure that was forced upon
00:40:15 ►
Native Americans in order to actually talk with the government and enter into treaty.
00:40:21 ►
Like, you know, some of the groups like the Apache, like what were termed the Apaches
00:40:25 ►
weren’t tribal based, but they are now because they had, they had to present themselves that way
00:40:36 ►
to be recognized. So yeah, you have to, if you want to interact with a bureaucracy,
00:40:42 ►
you have to play the game that permits you to mesh with their framework.
00:40:47 ►
It’s just part of the beast.
00:40:50 ►
And in the continued bureaucracy, am I correct that there are places today that anyone here can go and for a nominal fee become a member of a Native American church and receive some peyote?
00:41:03 ►
Not exactly.
00:41:07 ►
a Native American church and receive some peyote? Not exactly. You’ve got Oak LaVue who,
00:41:15 ►
as far as I can tell, DEA simply seems to be afraid to take on again for fear of experiencing another loss. But they basically were respected not on constitutional rights, but they were respected based on the state’s rights in the
00:41:26 ►
wake of the Smith case, because the Utah Constitution didn’t specify the drug. It
00:41:32 ►
didn’t specify Native American membership. And the legislature has gone back and changed that law
00:41:41 ►
so that no other organization can actually use what Mooney’s organization did
00:41:48 ►
for being respected. So you can join their organization, which the rest of the Native
00:41:54 ►
American church insists is not part of the Native American church. And it’s for the future to
00:42:01 ►
determine what’s actually going to happen with them. It’s really sort of exciting and encouraging to watch the progress they’ve had.
00:42:09 ►
There’s one other all-race Native American church, which is the NAC of Strawberry Plains.
00:42:15 ►
And again, they’re denounced by the rest of the Native American church.
00:42:30 ►
Most of the Native American church now insists that they are required to ban all non-native participation.
00:42:32 ►
That’s here in the U.S.
00:42:42 ►
You also have the Peyote Way Church of God, who does spirit walks, but they actually lost in court back in the 90s. The court said that even though they were sincere,
00:42:45 ►
Congress clearly did not intend for anybody but Native Americans to use peyote.
00:42:51 ►
But they’re continuing to operate.
00:42:54 ►
They’re doing it openly, and they informed the DEA that they were doing that.
00:42:58 ►
And so far, the DEA has left them alone.
00:43:10 ►
the DEA has left them alone. But I’d suggest all of those groups aren’t on firm footing,
00:43:18 ►
you know, in terms of the future. They could, in fact, endure and survive, and I hope they all do.
00:43:30 ►
But right now, we really don’t have any clear picture of what’s happening because I’m sure you’ve noticed everything seems to be polarizing into special interest groups.
00:43:42 ►
And as opposed to the civil rights movement during the 50s and 60s, everybody pulled together in one big umbrella for shared interests in that. But now what we’re seeing is a bunch of scrapping camps
00:43:46 ►
who are fighting over their own little piece of the pie, seemingly oblivious to the fact that
00:43:51 ►
if they were all to pull together for common goals, they would succeed. Whereas right now,
00:43:58 ►
all they’re doing is wasting resources and not going very far very fast.
00:44:03 ►
Yeah, it’s a tough time. It’s never easy for drugs in America.
00:44:06 ►
No, no, but this actually goes beyond drugs.
00:44:10 ►
This basically, drugs got pulled into this
00:44:13 ►
because they are a non-Christian religious practice.
00:44:19 ►
And that became an issue early in the last century.
00:44:26 ►
And something that becomes really apparent if you go into the literature,
00:44:31 ►
the early attacks on peyote weren’t about it being a drug.
00:44:35 ►
It was because it was used for religious ceremonies.
00:44:40 ►
When the courts failed to back them on that,
00:44:43 ►
then it started getting packaged in with dangerous drugs.
00:44:46 ►
Then it started getting declared to be killing dozens of people and to be highly addictive and to cause insanity and death within three to five years after a person started using it.
00:45:01 ►
And you can actually find congressional testimony about claiming all of
00:45:06 ►
this. So there’s a lot of politics wrapping this whole picture and has been for many years.
00:45:14 ►
So it just makes for an ugly picture. And it’s just something where if people would wake up
00:45:20 ►
to the fact that we have common goals and common shared enemies, a whole lot of
00:45:28 ►
organizations that are going nowhere could actually find themselves joining into something larger that
00:45:34 ►
actually could succeed. So I’d invite anybody to take a look at the old civil rights marches with Martin Luther King.
00:45:50 ►
And look at the composition of those crowds in those marches. It’s not a sea of black faces.
00:45:53 ►
It’s a sea of everybody that cared, marching side by side.
00:45:59 ►
And that’s really what we’re missing today in this sort of polarization into special interest groups.
00:46:07 ►
Because nobody grasps that as small fragmented groups, we have very little power.
00:46:15 ►
But if people look for our commonalities and things that we can accomplish in numbers, we actually have a voice that can be heard.
00:46:24 ►
That’s great. That’s a great call to arms.
00:46:26 ►
And it’s part of the reason too, that I’m glad that you’re there adding to the science of it,
00:46:30 ►
adding to the peer reviewed work that will be respected with things like some simple
00:46:35 ►
tryptamines. And I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your story, actually from the
00:46:39 ►
very back in the acknowledgements, and all of your gratitudes when you say, and also, of course,
00:46:45 ►
my gratitude to whoever it was who lost that small bag of DMT-treated herb back in 1972.
00:46:53 ►
What happened there?
00:46:54 ►
That was my introduction to DMT. I mean, I was, I guess, 14 years old, me and some friends were walking down the street and one of them
00:47:06 ►
spotted a gutter or I mean a baggie laying in the gutter. And, uh, it had like some weed in it that
00:47:14 ►
was weird smelling and sort of crunchy feeling. And obviously it’d been doped with some chemical
00:47:19 ►
none of us recognized. So, you know, we immediately found a place where nobody would bother us because we
00:47:25 ►
didn’t know what we’re about to get into and smoked it. And wow. Yeah, it was like, for want
00:47:33 ►
of a better word, I went home. I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. But I went to this
00:47:40 ►
very familiar place where I’m surrounded by these beetle-headed shimmering
00:47:45 ►
creatures that are all singing ecstatically, he’s back, he’s back, welcome home. And next thing I
00:47:52 ►
know, I’m standing right where I started. Not many minutes could have passed and I was really
00:47:58 ►
befuddled. And it was 20 full years before I discovered what I’d ingested.
00:48:13 ►
I mean, it was literally the first time I got DMT and put it on pot at a 10% concentration was when I discovered what I’d ingested.
00:48:16 ►
Because everybody I asked told me nothing was that short.
00:48:20 ►
And everything I read about DMT said it lasted half an hour.
00:48:23 ►
And clearly what had happened to me was several minutes long.
00:48:26 ►
But, yeah, it’s just so it sort of got a fond spot in my heart. That’s great. So where did your explorations take you
00:48:31 ►
from there? With these, these medicines? Well, I mean, when I was a teenager, I was more interested
00:48:37 ►
in drug abuse, for want of a better word than anything. And, you know, I wanted to experience, you know, everything
00:48:45 ►
possible. So I spent most of my teenage years experiencing everything possible and using things
00:48:52 ►
to great excess. You know, when I was 19, I sort of woke up. And that was, you know, from the
00:49:01 ►
message from the peyote. And it just sort of, you know, turned my life around as far as setting down and walking away from hard drugs and things that, you know, I
00:49:11 ►
consider abusable or things that sort of, you know, use us more than we use them, so to speak.
00:49:21 ►
But, you know, now it’s just, you know, some years ago I got sick with Lyme, Lyme disease.
00:49:27 ►
And so that really interfered with my ability to do anything.
00:49:31 ►
And so including writing.
00:49:33 ►
So there was a period where I slacked off on everything and I’m recovering now.
00:49:38 ►
I mean, largely back in the recovery process, but that definitely flavored my experiential adventures.
00:49:46 ►
Because, you know, when you have Lyme, if you dose, it really makes you aware of how sick you are.
00:49:53 ►
And that’s not the most productive or positive place to be.
00:50:00 ►
But anyway, as of last summer, I’m largely back.
00:50:07 ►
And I believe that the progress is going to continue good congratulations but i got most most of my mind back and uh
00:50:13 ►
a huge amount of my energy back so it’s definitely going the right way good good um yeah because
00:50:20 ►
we’re happy to have you here saving all this information. And I’m curious, in some simple tryptamines, I guess I have two questions out of it.
00:50:29 ►
One is, what were the molecules that became closest to your heart through your journey with all of them?
00:50:35 ►
And then in this definitive book on tryptamines, what were some of the great surprises that you think were underrated molecules that might deserve more knowledge around the psychonautical community?
00:50:47 ►
CZ74, but I think most people are familiar with it.
00:50:51 ►
You know, the 4-acetoxy or 4-hydroxy or 4-phosphoriloxy-DET.
00:50:58 ►
I mean, that really resonated well with me when it was around back in the 90s.
00:51:02 ►
It may still be around for all I know.
00:51:06 ►
with me when it was around back in the 90s may still be around for all i know um but you know the molecules that influenced me the most you know growing up were mescaline and lsd and then later
00:51:13 ►
you know dmt assumed a very large role in my life during the you know starting during the 90s
00:51:30 ►
but i mean there’s some one other i enjoyed that passed through very briefly was called the lamid you know the methyl isopropyl um it’s uh lysergic acid uh but it’s uh
00:51:38 ►
the problem with it is it got released as lsd and it’s not. And anybody taking it thinking it’s LSD is going to be really disappointed
00:51:46 ►
because it’s light.
00:51:48 ►
It’s sociable.
00:51:49 ►
It doesn’t interfere with ideation, doesn’t interfere with conversation.
00:51:54 ►
And I think it would have been really popular if it had been released
00:51:58 ►
as what it was instead of being sold as acid.
00:52:02 ►
And that’s one of the big problems we’re seeing now is a lot of things
00:52:05 ►
are being sold as other materials and that’s just a recipe for problems no matter what excuse people
00:52:13 ►
have for it it’s just a bad idea the law of prohibition well that’s exactly the problem
00:52:19 ►
when things are unregulated they can’t actually be controlled.
00:52:29 ►
And some things actually do need control, like purity, quality.
00:52:33 ►
And, you know, we need to know what quantity people are getting.
00:52:35 ►
We need to know what things are.
00:52:39 ►
It was like when Sasha tested, what was it, 4-fluoroamphetamine,
00:52:42 ►
he got so many bans in the GCMS, his recommendation was don’t ingest this molecule because it’s just so dirty.
00:52:49 ►
And before I let you go, I wanted to find out what are you working on now that’s exciting, book-wise or articles?
00:52:58 ►
I’m working on – I usually have several projects happening in parallel, And this is the same with right now.
00:53:06 ►
The core piece I’m working on has to do with, you know, early peyote history and persecution.
00:53:13 ►
I’m trying to put together a really good timeline of events and articles and activities.
00:53:22 ►
It’s huge.
00:53:23 ►
So it probably won’t be out for, you know, maybe another year.
00:53:29 ►
We’re also working on conservation issues always. And so there’s another piece that we’re working on
00:53:37 ►
about the peyote crisis. And I’ve been hoping to have that done, gosh, over a year ago. But the problem is there’s been so much movement and change in the area that it’s premature to actually finish writing a piece when the story is in process.
00:53:56 ►
And so once some things develop a little farther, I think we’ll be to that point.
00:54:01 ►
And the most important thing I’m working on actually has to do with religious
00:54:06 ►
freedom. And that’s what euphemistically gets called cognitive liberties. And we really need
00:54:14 ►
a good phrase, you know, something that, you know, is a soundbite, because cognitive liberties,
00:54:20 ►
we understand, but it just doesn’t roll off the tongue. And so those are what I’m working on
00:54:25 ►
right now. But there’ll always be something more being added. And whatever gets completed,
00:54:31 ►
you can find on trout notes or on cactus conservation, the web pages, because we’re
00:54:38 ►
trying to make everything available as it happens. And they are excellent sources of information. I
00:54:44 ►
was going through again
00:54:45 ►
today. And also to see your work documenting the fungi and plant life up in your neck of the woods,
00:54:51 ►
really beautiful stuff going on. I love Mendocino County. That’s a great spot to be. And the last
00:54:58 ►
question I wanted to ask is, if we happen to have a giant pot of money we could give you to start
00:55:03 ►
your own foundation, doing your own kind of research and work, what would you most want to do to see happen, to get done, to do with that?
00:55:10 ►
Peyote conservation.
00:55:12 ►
Okay.
00:55:13 ►
It’s the thing that’s most pressing time-wise.
00:55:34 ►
Once things get dialed in where people are producing their own medicine, from the point they decide to start that process to the point that they’re actually producing their own medicine is probably going to be a period of greater than 12 years.
00:55:40 ►
And so very clearly, that’s something that needs to happen sooner rather than later.
00:55:42 ►
That would be great.
00:55:45 ►
Yeah, if any deep-pocketed donors out there,
00:55:46 ►
this is work to support.
00:55:49 ►
Keeper Trout, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us
00:55:50 ►
and sharing from your knowledge.
00:55:51 ►
I know you could go on for a lot of hours,
00:55:52 ►
but we should let you get back
00:55:53 ►
to the scanning and the work.
00:55:54 ►
Hey, thanks, Lex.
00:55:55 ►
Hope you have a great day,
00:55:56 ►
and we’ll talk soon.
00:55:58 ►
That sounds great.
00:55:59 ►
Thanks so much.
00:56:13 ►
Thanks for listening to the Psychedelic salon 2.0 to help us out you can leave a review or rating on your favorite podcast service or share an episode with a friend it really does make a
00:56:18 ►
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00:56:25 ►
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