Program Notes
Support Lorenzo on Patreon -https://www.patreon.com/lorenzohagerty
Guest speakers: Patreon Saloners
This is a recording of one of our recent Live Salons. While we sometimes have guests who bring specific levels of expertise to our salons, most of the time we seem to be able to have in-depth conversations without the “experts”. This was one of those nights.
I began our discussion thinking that vaping DMT over your lunch hour wasn’t a great idea, but after learning more about vaping DMT I changed my mind, not about doing it over your lunch hour, but about vaping DMT in general. As it turns out, there is a lot more to this new trend that I realized. Also, I learned enough about 4-AcO-DMT to thinking that this is something I’m going to try. If you aren’t already familiar with it, this discussion should be of interest to you as well.
Here are the links from chat to books and other things that we talked about:
LSD & The Mind of the Universe
Download free copies of Lorenzo’s latest books
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic
00:00:23 ►
Salon.
00:00:23 ►
This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:31 ►
As you know, for the past year and a half or so, I’ve been mainly focused on hosting live salons.
00:00:36 ►
In fact, recordings of over 70 of these conversations are now available on my Patreon site.
00:00:42 ►
Whenever we have an expert guest join us, I podcast that evening’s salon as well.
00:00:48 ►
However, this past Monday’s salon, while we had no experts about psychedelics to join us,
00:00:51 ►
well, the conversation was excellent and very informative.
00:00:56 ►
Since a significant amount of current information about psychedelics can only be found in the so-called underground,
00:00:59 ►
well, us old white men, so-called experts, giving talks from a stage are,
00:01:04 ►
well, we’re no longer the best
00:01:05 ►
resource to learn about the leading edge in medicine use. Fortunately, there were some
00:01:10 ►
younger and more involved people on hand to bring me up to date on some of the latest trends in the
00:01:16 ►
psychedelic community. Hopefully, you will also be a little more enlightened about these issues
00:01:21 ►
after listening to our conversation. A lot of the usual suspects are here.
00:01:29 ►
You picked a great topic tonight, so we’ll see how many show up.
00:01:33 ►
I was actually pretty surprised by that story, to tell you the truth.
00:01:40 ►
I guess I’m really kind of old-fashioned because, you know, I have Microsoft, microdosed LST, LSD and mushrooms or psilocybin, I should say.
00:01:58 ►
But I have DMT in a whole different category and maybe I’m just kind of old fashioned, but to me, that’s something that, that, well, of course, you know, I’ve never micro-dosed it. So what am I talking about? I don’t know. Have any of you guys ever tried micro-dosing it?
00:02:14 ►
Oh, yeah. I have a lot to say about tonight’s topic, actually, but I’ll wait till more people get here.
00:02:27 ►
good good i mean if by microdosing you mean taking small doses because i don’t have enough courage for a big dose then sure i’ve done that yeah i’ll call it microdosing and not being a
00:02:31 ►
chicken shit but this article actually was about them microdosing you know at lunch breaks and
00:02:38 ►
stuff like that and you know uh you know i’ll have to, I guess, to see what microdosing DMT does for you.
00:02:45 ►
But to me, after DMT, not ayahuasca version, but just smoke DMT, you know, you’re gone for three to five minutes or something like that.
00:02:56 ►
But I need a bunch of time after that to really kind of take it all in, you know, an hour or so.
00:03:02 ►
And the way we used to do it, there was, for example,
00:03:07 ►
one time there were about six or seven of us and we were at this house having a party. And so we
00:03:15 ►
all went into the master bedroom and one guy laid on the bed and I gave him some DMT and he took
00:03:24 ►
three hits or so, three big hits and laid back and the rest of us
00:03:27 ►
sat at the foot of the bed on the floor and then when he came out of it nobody said nobody was
00:03:35 ►
allowed to say or loud we all agreed nobody would say anything until he talked first and then we let
00:03:43 ►
him talk and then we had a little discussion then the next guy
00:03:46 ►
he’d scoot over in the bed because you’re still kind of in his uh you know in the in the state
00:03:50 ►
and then he’d slide over the next guy’d sit there and and and do it and the same procedure and then
00:03:57 ►
then he’d go off the bed to the end the first guy and then they’d all move over and so we just do it
00:04:01 ►
in a circle like that and uh i i had one really profound, very profound experience that way.
00:04:07 ►
But that’s the way that that we used to do it. And the only other way I’ve done DMT is with in ayahuasca, you know, and that’s certainly not a not a microdose and not something you do in your lunch hour. So I perhaps don’t have enough background or information to really judge vaping DMT and what it’s like.
00:04:34 ►
But I just, I don’t know, I just can’t a lot of experience that vape DMT and smoked or, you know, vaporized crystalline DMT are orders of magnitude difference in intensity.
00:04:55 ►
And that you have less control and greater intensity of getting into the space with smoked or vaporized
00:05:06 ►
DMT. Whereas if you’re using a vape cartridge where it’s already been put into a medium,
00:05:13 ►
you have an ability to kind of gradually get into the space and an ability to control your
00:05:21 ►
own intensity, which means that sometimes if you’re intending to blast off,
00:05:26 ►
you can’t actually take enough to really get there. And you might only get into the waiting
00:05:30 ►
room or you might only get into a liminal space. But there are other times that you really can
00:05:41 ►
achieve a breakthrough. And I’ve had both. And then I’ve also had experiences
00:05:45 ►
both with, you know, smoking, although less so with smoking, and with vaping DMT, that, you know,
00:05:53 ►
sometimes DMT lets you in, and sometimes it doesn’t. And it kind of is up to the molecule
00:06:00 ►
and your own relationship with the molecule and your own preparation as to whether you’re going
00:06:06 ►
to get into that space. But with regard to the article that you shared with us, you know, I think
00:06:10 ►
you have to throw out all of that journalist bullshit about lunchtime and, you know, doing it
00:06:15 ►
on a break and all of that kind of consumer society bullshit that they use to sell the article And think about it more in terms of, you know, there is a efficient mechanism for a short acting dissociative psychedelic experience with an element of profound content that is accessible using the DMT pen format and that you can develop a more frequent ritual with,
00:06:48 ►
you know, through that mechanism. And when I was returning to psychedelics in midlife,
00:06:54 ►
because I was really active in my teens and early twenties, and I took a long,
00:06:58 ►
like 15 or something year break. And then I came back in my late 30s and I spent the first year just kind of reading and listening and, you know, getting acclimated.
00:07:09 ►
And then when psychedelic materia finally found me, it was DMT.
00:07:15 ►
And, you know, that first year or so, you know, I had a regular practice.
00:07:22 ►
It was about, you know, twice, maybe three times a month. I would make the container usually on a Saturday night, usually late in the vape format is really good for that. I mean,
00:07:46 ►
last week we were talking about the idea of the one-of-a-kind do-it-yourself psychedelic church.
00:07:53 ►
And this particular medicine and this particular delivery vehicle, I think is a really great tool
00:08:00 ►
for doing that. And then the last thing I’ll kind of say about the vape DMT
00:08:05 ►
experience and let make room for other people to talk is that, you know, the variability that it
00:08:14 ►
affords you is really quite beautiful. You know, you can, A, you know, kind of control how far out you want to get into the space but also unlike that crazy you
00:08:27 ►
know smack you in the face with a ectoplasm cream pie that the smoke dmt represents um you know you
00:08:37 ►
can get there more gradually and you’re not coming out of it with like a what the fuck and like
00:08:43 ►
holding on to the content as much as possible.
00:08:46 ►
You kind of drift back from it and can spend more time returning to default.
00:08:53 ►
So, you know, rather than and what I would recommend for people is, you know, rather than like snapping awake and going, holy shit, I saw elves or whatever it was you see, kind of stick with it.
00:09:05 ►
And just like when you’re coming out of a dream and doing dream work, you know, you can kind of
00:09:09 ►
navigate interesting spaces in your mind. And I was able to encounter, you know, like earlier builds
00:09:16 ►
of my psychological perceptions coming back from DMT. Like I was able to kind of perceive the world
00:09:23 ►
from the perspective of, you know, being seven.
00:09:26 ►
You know, I was able to, you know, work with different biographical connections
00:09:29 ►
and stuff of that nature.
00:09:31 ►
So that’s an interesting thing about it.
00:09:32 ►
And then finally, this is point B of the points A and B
00:09:37 ►
of the finally I set up earlier for being long-winded.
00:09:40 ►
Finally.
00:09:41 ►
I wish Ian was here to hear all this.
00:09:44 ►
Finally.
00:09:47 ►
Well, he can pretend to listen on the recording.
00:10:06 ►
Finally, the microdose experience is quite wonderful. you know, this kind of additional shine, you know, to reality that that’s just remarkable, either in a natural context or in a music context, or just in a, you know, I’m having body pain or
00:10:13 ►
body issues. And this kind of helps, you know, reset. And I know people that do use it for,
00:10:18 ►
you know, for body and neurological stuff. So I think it’s a marvelous medicine in this format.
00:10:23 ►
And I see Chris just unmuted. So I’d be curious what you had to say, Chris, because I know you have experience
00:10:27 ►
here. I was just going to kind of reiterate your, you’re talking about like that kind of the liminal
00:10:33 ►
space at the end of the experience. And like, and how valuable that is, is I think many of my most
00:10:40 ►
valuable insights have come from that sort of space and it’s people always ask me like oh how
00:10:46 ►
long does it last like well like if you really want to snap out of it like you know 15 minutes
00:10:50 ►
or something like that but like if you really if you don’t allow yourself to be drawn out of the
00:10:54 ►
experience you can draw it on for a lot longer and those vape pens really help to be able to do that
00:10:59 ►
it’s a lot it like it kind of instantly breaks my like mindset if i have to like clean out the pipe
00:11:05 ►
and add some more to it instead of it kind of like you know having to do the finger stuff
00:11:09 ►
like brings you back into the physical world where it’s just kind of like rolling over and going
00:11:13 ►
you know like that kind of that that doesn’t really break that so you can kind of like keep
00:11:18 ►
it going a little bit longer with that too but i i totally agree that’s the most informed one of
00:11:24 ►
the most informative parts of the DMT experience for me.
00:11:27 ►
And that definitely held true with 5-MeO DMT too. That same liminal space coming back is extremely,
00:11:34 ►
extremely valuable. And if you just kind of let it be, it’ll stick around for another half hour or
00:11:40 ►
something. Yeah. I always refer to this as kind of door-to-door in an hour. I mean,
00:11:50 ►
I hate the kind of nomenclature of it, but yeah, we’re saying the same thing. Andrew, you are muted.
00:11:55 ►
Go ahead. I was going to say that Lorenzo’s description of the set and setting that he and his companions were using DMT in seems very tuned to optimize for a breakthrough experience, for a high dose experience,
00:12:07 ►
but to sort of cast an alternate image with an alternate intention. You have a thousand people
00:12:16 ►
at a festival and they’re all crammed into, you know, a giant pack and you have a small crew
00:12:22 ►
and they’re all together in a line and the pen gets passed
00:12:27 ►
from one person to the next. And when you’re taking the pen, the people on either side of
00:12:31 ►
you are supporting your shoulders in the pack and you just go down the line. And it’s not something
00:12:37 ►
I’ve ever myself experienced, but, you know, there’s just, there’s all kinds of different ways that the form factor of the vape pen has sort of – it lends itself to less of the fumbling with the torch and hot glass and simplifies that whole situation in terms of the risk of burning yourself.
00:13:03 ►
simplifies that whole situation in terms of the risk of burning yourself.
00:13:08 ►
Well, and you know, you can’t really take a rig to a concert, but you know,
00:13:09 ►
I’ve, I’ve,
00:13:13 ►
I’ve recently had beautiful experiences with a DMT vape pen with, you know, live music. It’s it’s, it’s worth doing.
00:13:17 ►
Although apparently you can get a rig onto an Amtrak train
00:13:20 ►
if you’re in California. You know, 10 minutes ago, I was just a grumpy old man,
00:13:31 ►
read a headline, people are using DMT at work. And I didn’t really analyze the article like I
00:13:38 ►
should have, like you did, Charles. And now, and of course, I am so far out of the loop these days that I’ve not had access to a DMT vape pen.
00:13:49 ►
But I now feel young again because the first time in many years, not only do I hear of a psychedelic experience that I want to try, but I’m going to try.
00:13:59 ►
I’m going to find one of the damn thing. I mean, you have really lit a fire under me.
00:14:05 ►
one of the damn thing. I mean, you have really lit a fire under me. This opens up all kinds of possibilities for learning how to use DMT that we haven’t had before. And DMT is something that
00:14:12 ►
most people give up on because it’s not that easy to really learn to use and get into. But
00:14:18 ►
what you’re describing sounds like Carbogen that they used for LSD back in the 50s.
00:14:24 ►
like Carbogen that they used for LSD back in the 50s.
00:14:30 ►
But on a much better scale, I mean, wow, that sounds awesome.
00:14:33 ►
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:33 ►
Go ahead, Mike.
00:14:35 ►
How is it?
00:14:37 ►
So I have really weak lungs.
00:14:40 ►
I always cough a lot if I try to smoke pot or something. So is it easier on your lungs using a vape pen than doing the terence mckenna
00:14:45 ►
three big hits and yeah i mean you’ve still got to work on your inhalation and holding um
00:14:53 ►
holding it um or you’ve got to be prepared to just like take 25 tokes or as i like to put it you know
00:14:59 ►
you you toke until your motor skills give out and then, you know, you’re probably in the space. Go ahead, Chris.
00:15:06 ►
Do you have experience with this Charles where I feel like a lot of the
00:15:11 ►
batteries that I’ve tried using to you know,
00:15:14 ►
to light the bait pens have been maybe insufficient.
00:15:18 ►
And I feel like I’m getting a lot of the like propylene glycol or whatever
00:15:21 ►
like, you know, vaporized, but not actually the dmt and i have to
00:15:26 ►
like suck on it really hard and get it to like it almost shuts off and then like stop and then
00:15:30 ►
keep sucking it again so it like kind of overheats itself and like there’s a really good strong
00:15:36 ►
battery is really important for anyone that wants to like experiment with this because it does kind
00:15:42 ►
of seem like it needs to heat up a little bit hotter than like your standard like thc cartridge does and just try to make sure to get one of the higher
00:15:49 ►
ohm batteries for it 100 you want a variable voltage battery and you want to use somewhere
00:15:55 ►
not necessarily the hottest setting but probably like the second hottest setting depending upon
00:16:00 ►
what it is and most of these things you can get for 20 bucks at any, you know, any weed shop. And then the other thing I’ll say is that not all vape pens are equal, you know,
00:16:12 ►
and there are some that, you know, you can achieve a visual and meaning filled psychedelic experience
00:16:21 ►
with, you know, one or two tokes. There are some that, you know,
00:16:26 ►
you’re going to be pulling on it 10 times and maybe all you’re going to get are, you know,
00:16:29 ►
rainbow bubbles. So, I mean, again, they’re just not all made equal. And I think a lot of that
00:16:35 ►
just has to do with the novelty of the chemistry and people experimenting with making it and,
00:16:41 ►
you know, et cetera. And then there’s a guy named hawkeye clark in portland that has
00:16:45 ►
given interesting lectures on the various gradations of using dmt from microdosing to
00:16:56 ►
to dissociate dosing using vape pens and he describes that he will get specific formula
00:17:07 ►
describes that he will get specific formula vape pens designed to be microdosed, which he uses to manage anxiety prior to public speaking or to manage some of his chronic pain that will be
00:17:16 ►
different from using the DMT vape to dissociate and have a, you know, a commune with the infinite.
00:17:23 ►
So that’s another factor in this. And what we’re dealing with here is a, you know, a commune with the infinite. So that’s another factor in this.
00:17:26 ►
And what we’re dealing with here is physics, you know, there’s an optimal temperature at which
00:17:31 ►
the chemicals again, like if you’re assuming that your source material is relatively pure,
00:17:37 ►
then there’s a temperature that it ideally vaporizes at and above that, you know, too high,
00:17:41 ►
it burns. And so that’s going to be harsher on your lungs
00:17:45 ►
and so you really don’t want to pinch pennies when it comes to the battery because you want
00:17:50 ►
something that’ll operate at a consistent voltage and have good quality components measuring the
00:17:57 ►
temperature um so yeah the the marketplace is entirely awash in garbage batteries.
00:18:07 ►
And to find one that actually performs at the level of chemistry the way you want, yeah, you got to invest in something good.
00:18:16 ►
Do you have any recommendations?
00:18:17 ►
Going back to Lorenzo’s statement about availability, I mean, I don’t think it’s coming to the high desert of
00:18:25 ►
Las Cruces very soon. Where do you, this article sounds like… Let me step on you a bit here,
00:18:32 ►
Mike, because we really can’t talk about that here. Oh, I’m sorry. But offline, I have the
00:18:39 ►
same question, and I will deal with it offline. But let me answer the previous question about recommendations.
00:18:46 ►
I bought with a military discount for $16 a Pax ERA.
00:18:52 ►
I think they’re normally like $20.
00:18:54 ►
And with the Pax ERA, they have an app that you put on your phone and you actually set
00:19:00 ►
the temperature that you want.
00:19:02 ►
And I use it for Indica if I wake up in the middle of the night and I have the temperature that you want. And I use it for indica if I wake up in the middle of the night
00:19:06 ►
and I have the temperature set much lower so it doesn’t affect my throat or anything like that.
00:19:11 ►
And Mike, I’ve used that for quite a few years. I’m on my second one now. And it really, by
00:19:18 ►
adjusting the temperature, you can find a temperature for your cannabis that will not affect your throat, and you’ll
00:19:25 ►
be able to inhale comfortably.
00:19:28 ►
What’s that Popeye the Sailor Man thing you just held up, Chris?
00:19:33 ►
This is a little, it’s like shaped like an old school wooden pipe, you know, and the
00:19:38 ►
little buttons right here.
00:19:40 ►
That’s awesome.
00:19:41 ►
Yeah, it is.
00:19:42 ►
And I got it for like 3030, and it has variable voltage,
00:19:45 ►
but it’s like a way higher maximum voltage than most other batteries I was able to find.
00:19:50 ►
Wow.
00:19:50 ►
And it has a really cool feature.
00:19:52 ►
It’s a heat-up feature.
00:19:53 ►
So you push it twice, and it just slowly, slowly, slowly starts heating up.
00:19:58 ►
And then you can start pumping on it, and it’ll turn red when it gets really hot,
00:20:03 ►
and you can push it and keep it going at that temperature.
00:20:06 ►
Well, plus it’s so cool looking.
00:20:08 ►
What’s it called?
00:20:09 ►
Where did you get it?
00:20:09 ►
Yeah, that rules.
00:20:10 ►
Put a link in chat, please.
00:20:12 ►
I mean, I just bought it at a head shop, but it’s made by a company called Hush.
00:20:17 ►
Hush?
00:20:17 ►
It’s like the little thing just screws off right there.
00:20:21 ►
And my favorite part about it is that it’s it’s a weird awkward shape so it doesn’t fall
00:20:25 ►
out of my pocket like i i don’t lose it like i do all of the other just pen style vape pens
00:20:30 ►
and it goes it just it’s it’s usb rechargeable everything the whole thing i love it they should
00:20:36 ►
be paying me for this because this shit’s amazing and i totally recommend it i think you just sold
00:20:41 ►
five of them yeah for the people just listening, it looks like the coolest little pipe.
00:20:47 ►
You know, that’s why Charles said Popeye thing.
00:20:49 ►
It’s a very good, looks like a little briar pipe.
00:20:53 ►
I’m really impressed with that.
00:20:55 ►
Plus all the features.
00:20:56 ►
And the form factors, it’s really good.
00:20:57 ►
Like, that’s a really good kind of size for the battery.
00:21:01 ►
Because girth is the key when you’re looking for, like, a battery.
00:21:05 ►
Like, the slim batteries, garbage. Got to go because girth is the key when you’re looking for a battery. The slim batteries, garbage.
00:21:07 ►
You’ve got to go with girth.
00:21:09 ►
This is the nerdiest conversation we’ve had in a while.
00:21:11 ►
Well done, my friends.
00:21:15 ►
You’ve got some practical information coming out here.
00:21:19 ►
How long has VapePens of DMT been around?
00:21:24 ►
I’ve kind of read about it offhand
00:21:26 ►
but i’ll tell you the truth i never paid any attention to it so it’s obviously been here for
00:21:29 ►
quite a while if it’s in vaporizers now i started seeing people post pictures of them on reddit
00:21:35 ►
about a year and a half ago um and it’s significantly increased since then um
00:21:42 ►
but i started using them in 2018 yeah me too i mean it was kind of i feel
00:21:48 ►
like it was a market thing because uh the vape pens came along with cannabis dispensaries and so
00:21:55 ►
once the technology was out there someone thought oh i can take the pg that you usually use like as the base for like a home fillable vape and i i can dissolve dmt free
00:22:08 ►
base in there and um so you know once the technology was out there it was easy for that
00:22:13 ►
idea to occur to enough people for it to catch on well i feel a little better it’s only 2018
00:22:19 ►
that they first started coming around and they’re only really starting a year and a half ago making
00:22:23 ►
big time i don’t feel as far out of it.
00:22:26 ►
And they’ve gotten, they’ve gotten better since 2018 as well. I mean,
00:22:30 ►
the chemistry has gotten better. The you know, the,
00:22:34 ►
the circulation has gotten a little bit better. It’s, you know,
00:22:38 ►
the prices have gotten a little bit better, but like Mike says,
00:22:41 ►
it’s probably not in the high desert. This sounds more like a West coast thing.
00:22:44 ►
I wonder if it’s at the East coast yet well i mean you know there’s high desert and there’s high
00:22:49 ►
desert and i don’t think mike has found the high desert yet i’m so pissed at myself we’re not
00:22:55 ►
moving to san francisco instead of you know where i’m at just come just come visit you you where
00:23:02 ►
you move you wind up spending several days with Leonard Picard.
00:23:05 ►
Don’t give us that.
00:23:07 ►
I learned in the Navy, if you want sympathy, you find it in the dictionary right between shit and syphilis.
00:23:14 ►
And look, just like Deadheads, we are everywhere.
00:23:17 ►
And it’s just a matter of just snooping around who’s around and, you know, your local-ish psychedelic society.
00:23:26 ►
I mean, you’re, you know, I mean, yeah, it’s a drive to get to Santa Fe.
00:23:29 ►
But, dude, there’s some serious psychedelic people in New Mexico.
00:23:33 ►
Thanks for the encouragement.
00:23:35 ►
And, well, Mike was really serious when he moved there.
00:23:39 ►
So, yeah, there’s at least one serious person there I know.
00:23:43 ►
And when you talk about the high desert, you know,
00:23:45 ►
the high desert in California is where Myron Stolaroff lived.
00:23:50 ►
And that’s where many, many of the,
00:23:52 ►
much of the work from P. Col and T. Col took place in the high desert,
00:23:56 ►
the high, high desert.
00:23:58 ►
And this isn’t really like an example of the social side of, you know,
00:24:03 ►
we are everywhere, but like what, what the
00:24:06 ►
experience that I had that always illustrates this to me is a few years ago, I was going to move.
00:24:12 ►
It was unsure where we were going to move. We might have moved to Seattle. Um, and I was excited
00:24:17 ►
about that because Pacific Northwest is mushroom country and I had just been learning about them.
00:24:21 ►
And I was excited about maybe moving to a place where I could go and hunt these things out in the wild and find them and photograph them and all that.
00:24:28 ►
But we ended up moving to Cleveland. And, you know, for a lot of reasons, I was disappointed about that particular outcome, but rolled with it.
00:24:37 ►
And I took a job as a dog walker.
00:25:06 ►
No, as a walker, which meant I spent my days walking down, you know, sidewalks and neighborhoods. And I started seeing mushrooms growing on like all the lawns and all the mulch beds and all these high end neighborhoods that had, you know, well watered manicured lawns and had people come in with mulch every spring and introduce, you know, you know, spores from wherever the mulch or the sod had been cultivated.
00:25:15 ►
And, and I, I had expected to move to this, you know, cold, barren wasteland where I would never, you know, find any mushrooms, but they were all around me. And as I learned, I kind of picked up
00:25:21 ►
some names, and I started looking some up and, and I discovered that like, the mushroom that I learned, I kind of picked up some names and I started looking some up and, and I discovered that
00:25:25 ►
like the, the mushroom that I saw like most often on like any lawn, like there was no way that I
00:25:31 ►
could walk, you know, for a half hour without seeing one of these things was the banded model
00:25:36 ►
gill. It’s the Paniolus cinctilis and it grows on lawns all over the place. And it’s, it’s a
00:25:42 ►
psilocybin mushroom. It’s not, I never, I never
00:25:45 ►
took the step of like picking and eating them. It was, it was enough to like see them every day and
00:25:50 ►
smile every time I saw them. But like, it was just this weird experience that unfolded over a couple
00:25:56 ►
of years where I realized that I thought I had moved to somewhere that was mushroom poor, but
00:26:01 ►
these things were just all around me. And it,
00:26:10 ►
all it took was me changing the way that I looked at the world and noticing that they were there. And suddenly I was surrounded by friends.
00:26:16 ►
Back, back just briefly to the DMT pen conversation.
00:26:19 ►
I would like to kind of put out there too,
00:26:22 ►
that there’s a little bit of research and a lot more kind of underground discussion about the medical utility of DMT pens.
00:26:32 ►
It’s really interesting in this discussion, you know, from, you know, people using it for anxiety to people using it for pain relief to people using it to address, you know, kind of neurological pain,
00:26:47 ►
you know, that part I think is really interesting and worth investigating because there’s really,
00:26:54 ►
you know, no, I mean, not to my knowledge, there’s really no known downsides to, you know,
00:27:01 ►
just trying this medicine. I mean, it’s so fast acting and, you know, in the,
00:27:06 ►
in the microdose format or the vape, you know, low dose format is really the better way of putting
00:27:13 ►
it because it’s not really a micro because it’s perceptible. But in the, in the vape low dose
00:27:18 ►
format, there is a physical quality to it. And, you know, even sometimes like if I’m not feeling, you know,
00:27:26 ►
quite right, you know, in my body, I’ll use it and do breathing exercises along with it,
00:27:33 ►
and it’ll be kind of a physical reset. So I think that that’s another aspect that,
00:27:37 ►
you know, this well-meaning but ultimately sensational vice article didn’t really get into
00:27:42 ►
that, you know, there’s a lot of practical applications that people might look into with this
00:27:46 ►
as well.
00:27:48 ►
How, how, what, what is it like after like a couple of totes?
00:27:51 ►
What kind of a experience, what does it feel like?
00:27:53 ►
Is it definitely DMT like or, or cannabis like,
00:27:59 ►
or is it, is it just a buzz? What is it?
00:28:03 ►
Well, I mean, all of that stuff obviously is subjective from person to person.
00:28:08 ►
But, you know, for me, and I, you know, cannabis tells me that I’m a horrible person with bad
00:28:12 ►
ideas that everybody hates.
00:28:14 ►
So I can say for me, it’s not a cannabis-like experience.
00:28:16 ►
But, you know, I think after, you know, let’s say one or two deep tokes, again, depending on the pen,
00:28:26 ►
because a lot of this is variable.
00:28:27 ►
There’s a mild light headed flush
00:28:33 ►
that goes from the head into the body
00:28:36 ►
that will then for me facilitate
00:28:39 ►
like a better posture,
00:28:42 ►
an expanded sense of lung and deeper breathing,
00:28:46 ►
which of course, some of that is facilitated by just trying to take in as much into your lungs
00:28:50 ►
as possible. But, you know, that kind of deep breathing and that kind of, you know, kind of
00:28:54 ►
body rush and that body lightness, at least in my experience works. And I find in general,
00:29:01 ►
psychedelic medicines kind of correct my posture and breathing and bring me back into my organism, you know, more, you know, fairly effectively.
00:29:12 ►
And then when you go deeper, you know, you’ll achieve spaces that are more classically psychedelic, you know, with DMT. So, you know, I went to a couple of Phil Lesch concerts at
00:29:29 ►
Terrapin Crossroads a couple weeks ago. And, you know, at a certain point when they went into the
00:29:34 ►
jam, you know, decided to go for it on the vape pen. And you kind of know you’re there when the
00:29:40 ►
tone of the music or the pitch of the music shifts into that kind of
00:29:45 ►
warblier kind of thing.
00:29:47 ►
And then you can kind of close your eyes and get into the kind of bulb of
00:29:52 ►
psychedelic space, which is, you know,
00:29:54 ►
a remarkable and novel experience as well.
00:29:57 ►
So it just kind of varies from, you know, person to person,
00:29:59 ►
but that’s my personal experience with it.
00:30:02 ►
Well, I’m really fascinated by the potential for,
00:30:06 ►
I guess you’d call it medical uses for lessening, you know,
00:30:10 ►
anxiety, things like that, because I, you know,
00:30:12 ►
I know a lot of veterans are taking expeditions down to Peru to do ayahuasca
00:30:17 ►
and ayahuasca has been very helpful in, you know, deep healing kind of thing.
00:30:22 ►
But for, for anxiety and smaller things like that,
00:30:27 ►
editing is something I can relate to as an occupation
00:30:30 ►
and that’s something you’re doing now.
00:30:32 ►
So if you were not a heavy dose of vape pen DMT,
00:30:35 ►
but if you were going to do just,
00:30:37 ►
you’re just, you couldn’t focus,
00:30:39 ►
you’re disoriented,
00:30:40 ►
you want to just get back into focus.
00:30:43 ►
And let’s say you had two hits, two
00:30:46 ►
tokes. How long would it take you before you could get back to actually doing work like
00:30:51 ►
editing?
00:30:52 ►
Maybe a half hour.
00:30:53 ►
Oh, okay. Perfect.
00:30:54 ►
Maybe less, actually. I mean, I haven’t actually tried it. But I mean, I find that when it’s
00:31:00 ►
activated for me, that my thinking is somewhat disorganized. And, you know, if I’m just taking a
00:31:07 ►
body dose, you know, I’m usually doing it like if I’m taking a walk. So for me, it would be,
00:31:14 ►
I would go out, I would take a, you know, a brief walk. I would take a low body dose and kind of
00:31:21 ►
complete my walk. And by the time I’m back, I would be, you know, refreshed
00:31:25 ►
and focused. But, you know, perhaps, you know, 30 minutes or less would be my guess on that. But I
00:31:31 ►
haven’t tried it in the way that you’re describing. Yeah, that sounds really perfect. You know, I use
00:31:37 ►
cannabis every day. And sometimes, you know, if I’m not careful, and I don’t have the right blends
00:31:43 ►
or whatever, I get kind of lethargic, and you have to have the right cannabis to stay on edge. And this sounds like something
00:31:49 ►
that I only use meth a few times, but I really love meth, I’ll have to tell you. I have thought
00:31:59 ►
about that quite a few times, but I know enough that, you know that there’s no way I’ll ever try it again. But I like to, the little, you know, Herbamonte tea works for me actually too, to give me a little
00:32:10 ►
pep because I don’t like the heavy caffeine in the afternoon. So this sounds like something
00:32:15 ►
very fascinating for me that I’m definitely going to seek out. And just for anybody listening to
00:32:21 ►
this afterwards, there’s no equivalency whatsoever between the DMT vape pen and meth.
00:32:28 ►
I didn’t mean to imply that.
00:32:30 ►
I know you didn’t.
00:32:31 ►
I just have to throw the disclaimer in because I’m a pedant.
00:32:36 ►
You’d also make a good lawyer.
00:32:38 ►
I hate to insult you like that.
00:32:40 ►
People have thrown that epithet at me before.
00:32:43 ►
Chris, I know that you have experience
00:32:45 ►
with the medicine and Lorenzo had asked about, I don’t know if you heard the question, but about,
00:32:50 ►
you know, if you had taken, you know, say one or two doses or one or two, you know,
00:32:55 ►
tokes off of a DMT pen while doing some kind of detail oriented desk work, like editing,
00:33:01 ►
how long it would take you to um you know return to baseline and
00:33:06 ►
alternatively i guess the call area that question was if you could describe what it felt like just
00:33:10 ►
taking kind of one or two doses from your one or two tokes from your experience um so the other
00:33:16 ►
day actually i was i was driving down the highway and i accidentally hit the wrong cartridge uh only once you know uh it it didn’t it didn’t impede my anything i i
00:33:28 ►
tasted it before i took really like a huge hit in you know so i was like oh okay and i was like i
00:33:36 ►
was like super on the ball to like pull over if i needed to like got it like everything was fine but
00:33:40 ►
it was it was it was great it was totally fine, I didn’t, I didn’t feel unsafe even for a split second.
00:33:47 ►
And it was just a little bright, little bright, little shimmer.
00:33:50 ►
The little white lines were a little bit, you know, a little bit shinier.
00:33:53 ►
And I, and afterwards I was like, wow, that felt, that felt great.
00:33:59 ►
I probably won’t do that again.
00:34:01 ►
I probably won’t be doing that again just because you know you know i think i got like
00:34:08 ►
a once in a lifetime free pass on that you know so i was just gonna take that and run with it
00:34:13 ►
but as far as like detail orient like typing and stuff goes i don’t i think i probably would have
00:34:18 ►
just spaced out for a good like five minutes before i wanted to like make my fingers do keyboard stuff
00:34:23 ►
um but you know i don’t it wouldn’t have been impossible.
00:34:26 ►
I think it would probably would have been unpleasant, you know,
00:34:29 ►
it was on fun to just sit and do keyboard stuff and not that it would be,
00:34:33 ►
you know, I would be incapable of doing so, but I mean, who knows?
00:34:37 ►
It might be a, it might,
00:34:38 ►
it might spice up life in that sort of dull drum scenario.
00:34:41 ►
I’m not entirely sure.
00:34:43 ►
You know, I, I quit years ago.
00:34:45 ►
I quit going out on Saturday nights because I was,
00:34:47 ►
I was worried about all the drunk drivers. Now,
00:34:51 ►
now I’m worried about afternoons in Oregon, about the DMT driver.
00:34:56 ►
I mean, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s real. I’m,
00:34:59 ►
I guarantee you I’m not the only person who’s done that. That’s for sure.
00:35:03 ►
Boy, there’s, there’s a big fire going up in the Oregon mountains right now,
00:35:07 ►
the biggest one in the country.
00:35:08 ►
Yeah.
00:35:09 ►
Still not even close to even, I don’t think it’s even 10% contained, is it?
00:35:14 ►
No.
00:35:15 ►
And it’s getting bigger every day.
00:35:16 ►
Two of my really close friends are within 20 miles of that.
00:35:20 ►
And thankfully they’re south where the lines have been held really hard with
00:35:23 ►
the help of the river and stuff down there and the massive importance of a lot of that agricultural and residential land.
00:35:29 ►
So it’s kind of burning the other way. But, yeah, it’s it’s I mean, it’s Oregon in July.
00:35:34 ►
So, you know, it’s on fire. Yeah, my friends are in Ashland. I’ve been, you know, corresponding with them.
00:35:40 ►
You know, they’re at least safe right now. But they had a hard time last year because the smoke gets in that Valley and
00:35:45 ►
stage, you know, for months. So fire season this year, you know,
00:35:49 ►
the fire season in this country is bad, but you know,
00:35:52 ►
we’re hearing about the floods in Germany and Denmark and the Netherlands,
00:35:56 ►
but there’s also huge floods in India and Mexico right now as well. I mean,
00:36:01 ►
the same as what’s in Germany, you know, it’s just floods and fires,
00:36:06 ►
Armageddon underway here. Well, that cheery note just sparked the conversation.
00:36:16 ►
Well, there was a line from the Bible that like I always laughed about when I was a kid,
00:36:20 ►
you know, it’s a line, you know, that in the end days, in the end times, you know, there will be wars and rumors of wars.
00:36:29 ►
And I was always like, there’s always wars and rumors of wars.
00:36:32 ►
Like, what does that mean?
00:36:34 ►
But, like, I was surrounded by people who had this outlook of, like, is it now?
00:36:40 ►
Well, it might be now.
00:36:41 ►
It might be tomorrow.
00:36:42 ►
That’s the point.
00:36:42 ►
You live as though, like, it could be the beginning or the end. You don’t’t know. Like you just, you know, you live what’s in front of you.
00:37:06 ►
You do have a point. Like there’s a lot more rumors these days than people ever had access to.
00:37:16 ►
And we don’t really seem to have the psychological skills necessary to decode all the rumors that we have access to if we don’t like filter our information well.
00:37:23 ►
And you talk about wars. I don’t even know how many wars the United States is involved in anymore right now. You know, are we still in the Afghan war or whatever? But I can’t remember where I read this years ago, that from
00:37:29 ►
the last 6,000 years of human history, as far as anything they would consider large enough a
00:37:36 ►
conflict to be a war, there were only like 265 years out of 4,000, 6,000. There were not major
00:37:42 ►
conflicts of humans somewhere. So, you know, that’s just who we are.
00:37:47 ►
You know, that old cartoon about war is nature’s way
00:37:50 ►
isn’t really funny because, you know, we just don’t seem to be able
00:37:56 ►
to get along on a lot of basic things, you know, not just this country
00:38:00 ►
but humans everywhere, you know. I don’t get it.
00:38:03 ►
I just don’t really get it, you know, I don’t get it. I just don’t really get it.
00:38:06 ►
I don’t know.
00:38:08 ►
On a more positive note, you know, anyone have an interesting weekend?
00:38:12 ►
But I guess to speak really vaguely to Mike’s question, you know,
00:38:17 ►
it’s just a very, very interesting group of people.
00:38:19 ►
And I can speak unguardedly about McLeod’s Blotter Museum.
00:38:35 ►
You know, Mark McLeod is a, you know, very important kind of, you know, shadowy person in the history of LSD that knows the history of LSD.
00:38:40 ►
And, you know, he has gotten a lot of heat over the years. He’s gotten a lot of legal, you know, inquiry into his work over the years.
00:38:47 ►
He’s had his collection of blotter art seized, ultimately returned, you know, and, you know,
00:38:54 ►
to an extent was, you know, seen as a resource for law enforcement that he had all of this stuff.
00:38:59 ►
But when you go there, I mean, just to see the loving presentation with which, you know, all of this stuff is carefully cataloged and, you know, and displayed, you know, in this house is just, you know, amazing.
00:39:12 ►
And, you know, everybody there, you know, and everybody, almost everybody involved in the project had, you know, the Grateful Dead lightning bolt on them in some capacity or other.
00:39:23 ►
the Grateful Dead lightning bolt on them in some capacity or other.
00:39:27 ►
So, I mean, you know, not only was I among that tribe, but I mean, there’s just something kind of built into the spirit of LSD and the dead that
00:39:32 ►
goes side by side. And I mean, of course, a lot of that is Owsley, both,
00:39:36 ►
you know,
00:39:37 ►
bankrolling it and using it as a distribution center for his, you know,
00:39:41 ►
illicit product in the early days. but a lot of it is just you know
00:39:45 ►
that that was a container for this stuff so that that was pretty interesting to see as well and
00:39:51 ►
for those who aren’t familiar with mark mcleod and mark’s collection of blotter art full sheets
00:39:57 ►
of blotter art first of all there’s there’s not acid on the blotter uh you know he’s gone through
00:40:02 ►
all the legal hassles about that but the blotter art itself’s gone through all the legal hassles about that. But the blotter art
00:40:05 ►
itself is just amazing art. Some of these works of art are very, you know, worth a lot of money
00:40:12 ►
now. All of the blotter, sheets of blotter were just, you know, psychedelic artists were just
00:40:18 ►
making gorgeous sheets. And I don’t know how much he has. He must have thousands of sheets of it.
00:40:24 ►
You know, it’s the world, without a doubt’s it’s by orders of magnitude the largest collection of
00:40:29 ►
blotter art i doubt if anybody else has more than 50 or so and he’s got thousands he’s got thousands
00:40:35 ►
and yeah he did he did say uh in other interviews and also when he was talking to people this
00:40:40 ►
weekend um that you know a lot of this stuff was seized and then returned because
00:40:46 ►
it was inert. But he did make a crack about, you know, the gel tabs don’t get returned because
00:40:52 ►
you can’t make those inert. So that’s interesting to learn. And, you know, Mark is just a really
00:41:00 ►
nice guy. He’s really easy to visit with. And he has done so much for this community
00:41:06 ►
over the years, particularly from the legal standpoint, not just as an art collector, but
00:41:10 ►
he has stood up to the authorities and spent a lot of money and heartache on his own part to
00:41:17 ►
defend our stance about the war on drugs. So he definitely, he’s definitely gets a medal of honor from me for
00:41:25 ►
sure. He really, he really, really does. And, you know, he’s multi-talented in that he’s a
00:41:30 ►
very, very accomplished sculptor. He’s a very accomplished visual artist. He taught
00:41:36 ►
visual art for many years. Just a, just a super talented person. And, and in terms of the
00:41:44 ►
community too, another interesting thing I heard this weekend,
00:41:46 ►
I was talking to some folks that, you know, I mean,
00:41:49 ►
most of the people on this shoot had done some time, you know, for,
00:41:53 ►
for manufacturing and, and most of them were long past their, you know,
00:41:57 ►
depth of society.
00:41:58 ►
But one of the things that was brought up in discussion was that there’s a
00:42:03 ►
element of the cannabis business that if you did
00:42:06 ►
time, you kind of get to the front of the line in a lot of cannabis businesses, which, you know,
00:42:13 ►
somebody cracked, like, that’s kind of the least we can do in society. But, you know, a very
00:42:18 ►
interesting thing to bear in mind, you know, as so many of these things become mainstream is that
00:42:23 ►
there is a debt to pay that for to the people that have suffered the loss of their freedom. And, you know, seeing things like
00:42:30 ►
when Leonard visited the salon a couple of weeks ago and described his consulting work or hearing
00:42:35 ►
things like, you know, people that, you know, did time for the cultivation of cannabis that are now,
00:42:42 ►
you know, at the front of the line in the cannabis business, you know, it is nice to see some of that karmic balancing occurring. Not that the
00:42:50 ►
imbalance should have happened in the first place, but you know, we can only move forward.
00:42:54 ►
And for what it’s worth, I just talked to my oldest son today, who’s applied for 30 jobs in
00:43:00 ►
the last two weeks. And just today he was asked to take a drug test, you know?
00:43:08 ►
So in Florida, they’re still making people take drug tests for carpenter work.
00:43:11 ►
I saw an article on, I think it was ABC News.
00:43:16 ►
It was some American outlet, but anyway,
00:43:18 ►
it was that there was a labor shortage
00:43:24 ►
at some Michigan-based – I think it was Michigan-based factory, and they lifted the cannabis embargo because I guess cannabis has just gone legal in some recent capacity.
00:43:46 ►
in some recent capacity. So they lifted the cannabis embargo and suddenly we’re like a flood in candidates and, you know, valuable people. So, I mean, hopefully that is an object lesson
00:43:53 ►
to business, you know, broadly that if it’s legal, you know, and what people do on their
00:43:57 ►
own time is on their own time, it’s not going to adversely impact your work. But it’s sad to hear
00:44:02 ►
that your son had to deal with that. Yeah, he’s used to it. He lives in Florida, so he’s dealt with it for many years. But it’s such
00:44:11 ►
a strange situation in this country from coast to coast where it’s just uneven across the country.
00:44:18 ►
There’s still people serving 30-year and longer sentences in Texas and other places for, you know, a bag of
00:44:25 ►
pot. So, you know, it’s just, we’ve got a long ways to go to even that out. And I think what
00:44:31 ►
you said, Charles is exactly right. We’ve got to, we’ve got to search out and look for the
00:44:35 ►
dispensaries and the distributors who have done time, you know, who have people working there
00:44:40 ►
that have done time. I was, I was thinking we ought to, you know, in my fantasy of
00:44:46 ►
starting a business, I was thinking I was going to start a dispensary and only hire people who
00:44:50 ►
had served time for medical, for marijuana violations. And, you know, I think there
00:44:57 ►
probably are companies that are hiring, you know, only people who have been impacted negatively by
00:45:03 ►
it. So, you know, people are paying attention to it,
00:45:06 ►
but I think that’s a good question to ask.
00:45:08 ►
If anybody in your dispensary has done time,
00:45:12 ►
well, that’s a good dispensary to stick with.
00:45:14 ►
Yep, a lot of carbon to balance.
00:45:17 ►
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:19 ►
I also want to thank Charles for sending me some suggestions on reading material. I’ve had the wife of Osley,
00:45:28 ►
her book sitting on my shelf.
00:45:30 ►
I hadn’t read it and he prompted me to start reading it.
00:45:33 ►
Just a great,
00:45:34 ►
you know,
00:45:35 ►
if you want to read about the elders and some of the things that went on,
00:45:38 ►
great book.
00:45:39 ►
And,
00:45:39 ►
and I’ve been motivated to read more about 4ACODMT.
00:45:44 ►
So thanks for the suggestion, Charles.
00:45:48 ►
Glad to.
00:45:48 ►
Yeah, the book is Owsley and Me, My LSD Family by Roni Stanley.
00:45:53 ►
And my God, what a delightful human being she is.
00:45:56 ►
I’ve connected with her at a couple of dead shows, well, dead shows, but a couple of dead
00:46:02 ►
family shows out here, like when Phil’s playing at Terrapin and you know, she was around this weekend, she’s involved in this project and
00:46:10 ►
we spent more time connecting and she’s just a, you know, really, really delightful human who,
00:46:17 ►
you know, takes the history seriously, but like, it’s able to live this, you know,
00:46:22 ►
just this full life. Like, she’s just this, like, you know, she’s got some kind of a dentistry.
00:46:27 ►
She’s not a dentist, but she does some, some kind of orthodontic,
00:46:29 ►
you know, some kind of dental work, you know, in, in upstate New York.
00:46:34 ►
And it’s kind of compartmentalized in that community in that way,
00:46:36 ►
but then comes to all the shows and is like this, you know,
00:46:39 ►
elder in this community and is like just deeply curious and,
00:46:43 ►
and giving with her time and, you know, and really,
00:46:47 ►
really wise. We had some really great conversations about her perspectives on, you know, where the
00:46:54 ►
psychedelic world is going. You know, she’s a fascinating person. And this book is
00:46:59 ►
ribald and witty and full of great, you know, just kind of firsthand experience. So she’s great. And,
00:47:07 ►
and yeah, what a prominent psychedelic TV figure perked up when I was talking to a,
00:47:17 ►
a physician about, you know, asking like, is 4-ACO-DMT, which is marketed on the street as synthetic mushrooms, is that the same thing that they give people in the, in the tests? And it’s not,
00:47:31 ►
which, you know, I, you know, was glad to learn definitively. But this, this prominent person
00:47:36 ►
like perked up and joined our conversation and enthused about how much they loved that,
00:47:41 ►
that particular medicine. And why would anybody do mushrooms when you can do
00:47:46 ►
4-ACO DMT? Because it’s cheap, it’s easy to get, the dosing is predictable, and, you know, you can
00:47:52 ►
have these, you know, really powerful experiences. And while I don’t agree that, you know, mushrooms
00:47:58 ►
and 4-ACO are qualitatively equivalent, it was fun to see this enthusiasm from somebody that’s just so analytical and measured and such a super brain, just kind of be passionate about, well, that’s my favorite.
00:48:13 ►
So I have been reading up on it.
00:48:16 ►
And what I can read says that it should break down to psilocin and have the same effects as mushrooms. And yet people seem to describe it as having very distinct effects from psilocybin.
00:48:31 ►
So what’s your take on that?
00:48:33 ►
I believe it’s its own animal.
00:48:35 ►
And my personal experience of it is it makes me extremely nonverbal,
00:48:46 ►
which those of you that have suffered through sitting through me on the salon know that’s quite a feat. Um, but it makes me extremely nonverbal
00:48:53 ►
and it produces, um, you know, this, um, this visual, this visual environment with open eyes
00:49:02 ►
for a CODMT trust, um, this visual environment with open eyes, a CO DMT trust, this visual environment with open eyes,
00:49:07 ►
that’s kind of very smooth and you know,
00:49:11 ►
like polished fiberglass with, you know, with, with very,
00:49:15 ►
very bright highlights and with closed eye visuals is,
00:49:23 ►
you know, kind of a more muted version of the NN DMT space to me. But I’ve
00:49:29 ►
heard from others that are well acquainted with it, that it can take on characteristics of LSD,
00:49:38 ►
MDMA, and mushrooms, and that it’s a very mutable or fungible medicine space in that it’s kind of different for them every time
00:49:51 ►
and they can kind of oscillate based on what they want to get out of it, you know, between these different spaces.
00:49:58 ►
And I have a friend that just recently, and by the way, we’re talking at doses of around 20 to 25 milligrams, which is about what the tablets that you’ll find will be.
00:50:11 ►
I like to work a little bit higher, but I always work a little bit higher just because of the way I metabolize medicine.
00:50:30 ►
This person had a really profound aural hallucination with this medicine that was unlike anything he’s had. And I can account for my personal experience that the aural hallucinations, the auditory hallucinations within this space are sometimes overpowering in a very mystical way.
00:50:45 ►
Does anybody else have experience with this medicine here?
00:50:49 ►
It’s an interesting medicine.
00:50:50 ►
And my understanding is that it’s not illegal.
00:50:56 ►
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s legal because, I mean, that’s testing the definitions
00:50:59 ►
of the analogs.
00:51:01 ►
But my understanding is that it’s not scheduled in and of itself.
00:51:04 ►
Or that’s what
00:51:05 ►
this enthusiast that I met this weekend was talking about. And, you know, I’m not going to
00:51:10 ►
describe how to get it because, you know, if you know, then you know, and if you don’t know, then
00:51:14 ►
you probably shouldn’t. But it’s, you know, there are elements to it that this person was suggesting
00:51:21 ►
make it less risky. I just think it’s an interesting medicine.
00:51:25 ►
I use it for very specific, you know, mystical intent purposes.
00:51:32 ►
You know, it’s not my go-to medicine, but it’s a real interesting medicine.
00:51:36 ►
You know, from your description, it sounds, it’s very, very unique.
00:51:41 ►
It’s not like anything.
00:51:42 ►
It’s got little pieces of a lot of other things, but
00:51:46 ►
you can’t synergize all that. It sounds like it’s a unique experience.
00:51:51 ►
It is. And, and, you know, the other, the other piece here to bring it all full circle with the
00:51:55 ►
DMT vapes is, you know, the, the, the DMT vapes twine really well with other medicines.
00:52:07 ►
really well with other medicines. You know, my friends and I have used them with MDMA,
00:52:17 ►
and it really augments the auditory appreciation of the music that you’re listening to and kind of contributes to the body elevation and realignment of MDMA and then working with a more classical psychedelic.
00:52:28 ►
I mean, there’s a lot of literature about this, about, you know, you’ll be peaking on LSD
00:52:33 ►
and then, you know, use, you know, smoke DMT for a supercharge.
00:52:40 ►
You know, Terrence talks about that in True Hallucinations.
00:52:44 ►
You know, it definitely twines with other medicines as well, you know, Terrence talks about that in True Hallucinations. You know, it definitely twines with other medicines as well, you know, including, in my experience, 4-ACO and psilocybin.
00:52:55 ►
So not that I want to advise anybody who’s not an experienced user to polydrug, but if you’re going to mix and match, the DMT vape pen is a nice addition. I see Chris
00:53:08 ►
laughing. I don’t know if you want to make fun of me or add to that. You’re welcome to do either.
00:53:13 ►
No, I mean, I think you’re right. It’s wise to not start mixing substances unless you’re
00:53:19 ►
familiar with both substances that you’re mixing. Sure. Your, your, your advisory, Charles,
00:53:27 ►
it’s very much like Ann Sheldon’s advisory, you know,
00:53:30 ►
whether she’s talking about whatever it is, MDMA, she says,
00:53:33 ►
now you do know it’s illegal and you’re not supposed to do it,
00:53:37 ►
but when you do it,
00:53:38 ►
that’s what it sounded like to me, but you’re legal the way you did it so i i think you passed that
00:53:47 ►
test very well it’s beautiful stuff and let me add uh there there is something to be said about
00:53:57 ►
about something being quote legal now the analog drug law essentially makes everything illegal
00:54:03 ►
but it’s not on the schedule
00:54:05 ►
until somebody tests it and there’s a court case and all like that. So right now, it’s not on a
00:54:09 ►
schedule anywhere, which is the same way. There was no analog drug law when I first used MDMA,
00:54:16 ►
but it was legal. And, you know, they eventually made it illegal. But I would never have gotten
00:54:22 ►
into this whole shebang had it been illegal in the beginning.
00:54:26 ►
I tried MDMA because it was legal.
00:54:28 ►
You know, I was a lawyer in Texas.
00:54:30 ►
I was a naval officer.
00:54:32 ►
I was on the straight and narrow.
00:54:35 ►
I had short haircut and the whole nine yards, you know.
00:54:38 ►
And then I took MDMA and I became what I am now.
00:54:41 ►
But I wouldn’t have done it if it was illegal. So I think that the fact that there are these, these, uh, uh,
00:54:48 ►
pseudo legal, there’s things that, that, you know,
00:54:51 ►
they’d have to really be after you as a distributor to come after you for this
00:54:55 ►
stuff, I think. So, uh, you know, it’s, it’s, uh,
00:54:58 ►
there’s something to be said for the fact that there are ways for people to get
00:55:02 ►
into this community without a
00:55:05 ►
big deal of exposure of the law.
00:55:08 ►
You do have exposure with the chemicals themselves, of course, you know,
00:55:11 ►
we talk about that all the time and, you know,
00:55:14 ►
safety is really important from a physical side, but the legal end of it,
00:55:20 ►
I think it’s really important that if you,
00:55:22 ►
if you don’t have to worry about having your door
00:55:25 ►
knocked in and somebody coming and hauling you off, you can have a lot better experience.
00:55:31 ►
That’s what I’ve learned anyhow.
00:55:33 ►
Yeah, I think that’s right.
00:55:35 ►
And one more caveat I’ll throw in about the 4ACO is that the, oh, trust us to ask, what’s
00:55:41 ►
the half-life of 4ACO?
00:55:43 ►
I don’t know what you mean by half-life.
00:55:44 ►
Are you asking about what the duration is of 4-ACO? Probably. Well, I’ll answer the,
00:55:51 ►
I’ll speak to the first part is that the come up is, the come up is kind of turbulent.
00:55:59 ►
Like I’ve experienced just weird body anxiety in the come up,
00:56:05 ►
which could just be the dose that I’m working with.
00:56:07 ►
Cause I do like to work closer to like the 30 milligram dose with it.
00:56:12 ►
But you know,
00:56:12 ►
the come up is definitely a little bit turbulent for me and I’ve,
00:56:15 ►
I’ve seen a lot of reports and double blind did a really good article.
00:56:18 ►
And in fact,
00:56:19 ►
double blind is really good just as a resource anyway,
00:56:22 ►
as just kind of FAQs on,
00:56:23 ►
on using medicines about it where they describe people having nausea or,
00:56:28 ►
you know,
00:56:28 ►
anxiety or,
00:56:30 ►
you know,
00:56:30 ►
kind of,
00:56:30 ►
kind of just uncomfortable body stuff.
00:56:32 ►
And,
00:56:33 ►
you know,
00:56:34 ►
I,
00:56:34 ►
I think that’s really true of this medicine,
00:56:36 ►
but,
00:56:36 ►
but once you’re kind of in the space,
00:56:39 ►
the ability to,
00:56:40 ►
you know,
00:56:41 ►
blast into interesting areas is,
00:56:43 ►
is phenomenal.
00:56:47 ►
I tend to metabolize it the peak tends to be the come up tends to be about 40 40 to 60 minutes um the peak
00:56:56 ►
will be about another 90 for me and then i feel like i’m back to baseline at around the
00:57:04 ►
you know the four hour mark which is kind baseline at around the, you know, the four hour
00:57:05 ►
mark, which is kind of a lingering, you know, you’re in the, you’re in the medicine, but not
00:57:10 ►
in the space, if you know what I mean. But my friends that have used it have experienced a
00:57:15 ►
longer duration, like closer to like a six hour duration. So it’s all very subjective. And, you
00:57:21 ►
know, I don’t know if I metabolize stuff more quickly, or if my BMI is contributing to, you know, I don’t know if I metabolize stuff more quickly or if my BMI is contributing to, you know, to the impact or not.
00:57:30 ►
But that’s my experience.
00:57:32 ►
But, you know, definitely read the, you know, the online vaults, you know, beforehand or, you know, before you do it.
00:57:40 ►
Look before you leap.
00:57:43 ►
I’m surprised that I haven’t really read a lot of adverse trip reports about 4-ACO.
00:57:50 ►
And the ones that I have read tend to be dumbasses, you know, like people that just took too much or they mixed it or they had a bad set and setting.
00:57:59 ►
But it’s not, you know, like you’ll, it could just be because it’s a more novel substance and there’s not as many, you know, instances.
00:58:09 ►
But by and large, it tends to be, you know, people tend to report positive experiences with it, which is interesting.
00:58:16 ►
Yeah, there’s three or four trip reports for ACO at Arrowwood, and they’re very consistent with what you just said.
00:58:24 ►
Well, now there’s two things that have my attention tonight.
00:58:29 ►
I’m starting to feel younger by the minute.
00:58:33 ►
You’re welcome.
00:58:37 ►
So does anybody have anything else?
00:58:39 ►
We’ve actually covered some very interesting ground here tonight,
00:58:42 ►
at least from my point of view, I’ve learned a lot. So anybody have any final words of wisdom you’d like to add?
00:58:49 ►
Go ahead, Chris. I’m just really sad. I heard Leonard Picard was was on.
00:58:54 ►
Is this true? Is this is this really true? Did I miss that?
00:58:58 ►
I missed that episode and was disappointed. I playback is very, very good to hear.
00:59:03 ►
I were for forever and always
00:59:05 ►
will be kicking myself in the pants for that.
00:59:07 ►
That’s yet to happen.
00:59:09 ►
Leonard will be back.
00:59:10 ►
He asked to get on the list
00:59:13 ►
so he knows that he can come
00:59:14 ►
whenever he wants to.
00:59:16 ►
So he’ll be dropping in
00:59:17 ►
from time to time, I’m sure.
00:59:19 ►
If you ever have advanced notice of that,
00:59:21 ►
please, for the love of God,
00:59:22 ►
blast it from the mountaintop
00:59:23 ►
so that I can stop everything in my life. As a result of that, he wound up spending several days up at
00:59:29 ►
Mike’s and then he and Charles have gotten together. So you just missed out. I’m sure he
00:59:35 ►
would have come and spent a week with you there, Chris. He’ll be around. He’s a very soft-spoken,
00:59:42 ►
but very, very curious and intellectually agile person that I think is, to a certain extent, making up for lost time and interacting with the tribe.
00:59:52 ►
But what a mind and what a wonderful person.
00:59:56 ►
And I’ve been reading his book kind of intimidated by meeting him.
01:00:00 ►
I was like, I better get this thing under my belt.
01:00:02 ►
And I was intimidated by the book for so long that it just kind of sat on my shelf. And then I was surprised to find that, you know, while it demands that you take your time with it, it’s actually kind of breezy once you’re in it. It’s a remarkable body of prose. One of the finer works of literature of this century so far.
01:00:26 ►
works of literature this century so far i agree i agree i’m excited for that i would do i would do a lot of really ridiculous and crazy things to have a couple conversations with that man
01:00:30 ►
well he’ll be back here so uh i’m i’m sure so don’t worry about it and as far as the book you
01:00:36 ►
know it’s thomas wolf style as far as the prose it’s just a it’s a poem it’s a very long prose
01:00:41 ►
poem it’s the best i’ve ever read and at at the same time, it hits that kind of information porn realm that guys like Neil Stevenson excel at, where you’ve just got so much disparate information being synthesized into a single narrative. You know, it’s not merely that he has these precise, clear, and lyrical
01:01:07 ►
and emotionally resonant depictions of varied states of consciousness, but it’s also that he has
01:01:15 ►
these nuanced and well-observed descriptions of the workings of various countries various legal systems various
01:01:28 ►
social systems and how they mesh and interact with each other and when i had a brief exchange
01:01:34 ►
with him over the weekend because frankly i’m still intimidated by him and giving him space
01:01:39 ►
and he’s somebody that you should be differential to um but you know i i’d commented upon um you know the my how impressed
01:01:48 ►
i was with the body of prose and he he said um and with the imagery in particular and he said well
01:01:53 ►
you know i was i was manifesting you know the world and there there is a real um element of
01:02:01 ►
this book of um you know just the power of the magician making a spell, you know,
01:02:07 ►
he was manifesting the world that he was alienated from in this body of work. And at the beginning,
01:02:13 ►
there’s a preface that says, you know, it should be read as it was written slowly. And there’s
01:02:19 ►
something to that, because you are co-creating the world with him. It really is a psychedelic unto itself. And I love the overall theme that the default mind is the gift,
01:02:29 ►
but how we train the default mind is the life’s work.
01:02:35 ►
And there’s no other piece of literature that I have been experienced to.
01:02:39 ►
Was there the depth and breadth of love and soul that were expressed by some of the humans in that
01:02:47 ►
book. I was brought to like weeping tears so many times by the descriptions of the actions of the
01:02:53 ►
humans in that book that it just blew my mind open to know that there are people like that,
01:02:59 ►
that actually exist, that actually do those things. It was amazing.
01:03:05 ►
There’s nothing better in the world.
01:03:08 ►
And one of the end of the last chapters of the last message he actually gets from him is,
01:03:14 ►
love is all.
01:03:16 ►
That’s the final message that he gets.
01:03:19 ►
I was in tears so hard at that.
01:03:23 ►
It was, man, so much love in that book.
01:03:25 ►
It’s insane.
01:03:26 ►
So much of his life has been unjustly stripped away that I sincerely hope that we’re witnessing after his period of adjustment, which I believe is going to be significant, you know, a very strong late flowering because he has so much, so much, so many multitudes within him that I think,
01:03:46 ►
you know, are, have great potential for the world. And I don’t want to put too much pressure on him
01:03:51 ►
or DFI him or put him on a pedestal or any of that stuff, because he is, you know, merely another
01:03:56 ►
human. But, but as, as, you know, a human, he’s really developed himself to, you know, stand up
01:04:02 ►
against adversity and express himself well and in niles
01:04:05 ►
i see you’ve got the chris base book which i haven’t started yet did you start lorenzo
01:04:08 ►
no not yet not yet uh lsd and the and uh the mind of the universe i think it’s called i’ve got it
01:04:15 ►
here lsd and the mind of the universe diamonds from heaven and uh this guy did very high dose LSD for a period of like 20 some years and went out into just the very, very far edges of mind and consciousness.
01:04:34 ►
Much of which, if you listen to him talk in podcasts or on videos, was frankly diabolical and nightmarish.
01:04:42 ►
But, you know, he would, would you know go out into these spaces
01:04:45 ►
um methodically and then document them and this is the summation of that work and
01:04:50 ►
it looks fantastic have you read it niles i’m about three quarters of the way through
01:04:56 ►
and uh it’s just it’s out there yeah, and there, there’s some depiction of,
01:05:05 ►
you know,
01:05:07 ►
extremely high dose in,
01:05:09 ►
in Picard’s book as well. But it sounds like,
01:05:10 ►
you know,
01:05:12 ►
base just like that was his deal.
01:05:14 ►
You know,
01:05:14 ►
that was his jam.
01:05:15 ►
And I don’t know how high dose was he working?
01:05:17 ►
Was it like 600 micrograms,
01:05:20 ►
600 doses of 600 micrograms.
01:05:23 ►
He says,
01:05:24 ►
near where I near where I am
01:05:27 ►
that on reflection
01:05:29 ►
I could have probably
01:05:31 ►
gotten to the same places
01:05:33 ►
on lesser doses
01:05:35 ►
but this is what
01:05:37 ►
the path he had set out
01:05:39 ►
and
01:05:39 ►
he gets down to the essence of creation
01:05:43 ►
it’s well beyond being a personal book it’s about our collective soul he gets down to the essence of creation to be,
01:05:46 ►
it’s well beyond being a personal book.
01:05:52 ►
It’s about our collective soul and oneness.
01:05:57 ►
That’s the one thing I’ve got out of LSD was the oneness of all things. And that, that’s enough.
01:06:00 ►
I, you know, if I have been saying that we are a single collective organism.
01:06:09 ►
Act like it.
01:06:11 ►
Quite a book.
01:06:13 ►
Yeah, I can’t wait.
01:06:13 ►
This is a really great time for psychedelic books out.
01:06:17 ►
We’ve got this just came out.
01:06:18 ►
The new Shulgin book just came out.
01:06:21 ►
It’s a great time to be uh to be reading about this stuff let me just circle
01:06:27 ►
back before we close here and mention that leonard’s book the rose of paracelsus uh when i
01:06:32 ►
several years ago when he was still in prison and one of my uh conversations with him we were
01:06:38 ►
talking about the book and uh about the reaction people had and all. And he kind of chuckled.
01:06:45 ►
And I could tell he was kind of laughing to himself.
01:06:47 ►
And he says, you know, he says, the strangest thing, some people think it’s fiction.
01:06:53 ►
Yeah.
01:06:54 ►
If you’ve read the book, that means a lot to you.
01:06:58 ►
Absolutely.
01:06:59 ►
It’s definitely strange enough to be fiction.
01:07:01 ►
That’s for sure.
01:07:03 ►
You can’t make a lot of that shit up if you tried, man.
01:07:08 ►
That’s true.
01:07:09 ►
That is true.
01:07:10 ►
Well, listen, everybody, I think this has been a very productive night.
01:07:14 ►
And put it up on the Patreon tomorrow.
01:07:17 ►
So I think people will get a lot out of this one.
01:07:19 ►
So appreciate everybody participating.
01:07:21 ►
And until the next time, hey, keep the old faith and let’s stay high.
01:07:29 ►
And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.
01:07:34 ►
Namaste, my friends.