125 - Trialogue_ Crop Circles

Program Notes

Guest speakers: Rupert Sheldrake, Ralph Abraham, Terence McKenna

[NOTE: These comments were recorded on September 3, 1991, and the opinions expressed by the participants in this podcast may have changed in subsequent years.]

Rupert Sheldrake: “If it were just one (crop circle), the hoax theory would be very plausible, but a phenomenon over such a long time period, now with ones turning up in other parts of the world as well, increasing levels – 400 of them last year [1990] in different parts of Britton, this requires quite a large effort.”

Rupert Sheldrake: “The alien theory [about the formation of crop circles] is a very rare one among the theories encountered. The one I think is most popular among people who take seriously the phenomenon and think that the hoax theory is not the only possible explanation is that the spirit of the land itself, or Earth mysteries long embedded in these ancient megalithic monuments are sort of coming back to life again and somehow are being reactivated in Brittan’s hour of need, or that Gaia or the Gaian intelligence or the Gaian mind itself is involved in some ongoing dialogue or communication which principally has the effect, year by year, of attracting more and more attention. And the message year by year seems to be ‘Watch This Space’.”

Ralph Abraham: “I think we should bet on the red and we should bet on the black. Probably you are right. Probably it’s a hoax. In case it’s a hoax, probably military, all right. But just as the fanatics of this phenomenon can’t dis the hoaxes theory to zero, neither can we reduce the non-hoax theory to zero, therefore, we have to keep our eyes open in case it actually begins to say some understandable intelligence to us. We can’t dismiss it completely.”

Rupert Sheldrake: “I think this is the only rational position to adopt, namely to treat it as a natural historical phenomena, or at least a phenomenon. Let’s just say a phenomenon, to investigate it emphatically, I think, is Bacon Ian science.”

Terence McKenna: “I’m claiming that orthodoxy is defending itself against magic. It’s a war between reason and magic. … It’s a desperate struggle between rational orthodoxy and magic.”

Crop Circle Links
1. Why real crop circles cannot be hoaxed:http://theconversation.org/booklet2.html

2. http://www.lucypringle.co.uk/ Her photos can be found here: http://www.lucypringle.co.uk/photos/

3. Andreas Mueller’s Interview with African Shaman on Crop Formations http://www.kornkreise-forschung.de/textCredoMutwa.htm

4. Interactive site: http://www.cropcircle-archive.com/archive/index.php?language=en

5. http://swirlednews.com/index.asp

6. http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/index2.html
Crop Circle Videos
Crop Circles The Best Evidence – Part 1
(This link was broken the last time it was tested.)

Crop Circles The Best Evidence – Part 2

Transcript

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Greetings from cyberdelic space.

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This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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And today we’re going to be hearing a little more from the private trialogue that Ralph Abraham, Rupert Sheldrake, and Terence McKenna held in September of 1991.

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But before we get to them, I want to take a moment and thank two of the salon’s most stalwart supporters. They are Vipal P. and Michael M.,

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both of whom made very generous donations to the salon during the past week.

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And I want to note that both Vipal and Michael were frequent donors last year as well.

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Their contributions have significantly enhanced my ability to continue producing these podcasts,

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and I want to thank them and all of the salon’s other financial supporters for

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helping us keep expanding our physical

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facilities to accommodate

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the ever-growing number of friends

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who join us here in the salon each week.

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Thanks again to all of you.

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Now for today’s program.

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This is the next

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to last session on the set of

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cassette tapes made of a

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private trialogue

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that I’m guessing they held in preparation for the completion of their book,

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Trialogues on the Edge of the West, that came out the following year.

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The topic today is crop circles, and to me it provided what I am thinking of as a role reversal for Terrence McKenna.

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I’ve kind of always thought of Terence as being out there on the far

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edge of things for the most part, but in this discussion he becomes the conservative one.

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As you will hear, Rupert and Ralph have pretty open minds on the subject, but Terence is convinced

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it’s a hoax. The irony here, at least to me, is that from where I sit, Terence’s theory about the

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British government being behind the phenomena

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in some kind of a long-term research study about public opinion seems to be as far-fetched as the little green men in flying saucers being behind it.

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Of course, this trialogue was held over 16 years ago, and a lot has happened since then.

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You may not agree with me, but I think that Ralph’s and Rupert’s objections to Terence’s position are even stronger today,

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now that there have been several thousand more circles that have been formed in the interim.

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But I’ll let you decide about this for yourself after you hear their various takes on this interesting phenomenon.

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We’ll start with Rupert Sheldrake setting up the premise of this discussion.

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So it’s Tuesday evening, September 3rd, 1991, and our subject is crop circles.

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Well, I think it’s interesting to talk about crop circles.

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And it’s particularly interesting for those of us in Britain,

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partly because this is almost the only phenomenon in which Britain currently leads the world.

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world. And my own involvement in this, apart from the general interest, an interest shared by practically everybody in Britain, a subject discussed by almost every man, woman and child

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in the British Isles, is that I am a member of the Centre for Crop Circle Studies

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and on the scientific panel, both because of my interest in morphic resonance and also

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because I’m one of the few crop physiologists around. And since this is a crop phenomenon,

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crop physiology is one of the relevant disciplines.

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The phenomenon of crop circles first came to public attention in 1980 or 1981,

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when people started noticing circular areas of fields which were depressed,

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usually with a spiral pattern of flattening of the corn.

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fields which were depressed usually with a spiral pattern of flattening of the corn. And to start with, these were simply circles and so the name grew up, they were called

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crop circles. There were a few seen in 1981 and at first they attracted the attention of the UFO people and the Earth Mysteries people,

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particularly the UFO experts, because they started occurring in the neighbourhood of Warminster in Wiltshire,

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which is an area famed for UFO sightings.

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In fact, in those parts of southwest England with long histories of UFO interest.

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long histories of UFO interest.

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Then, in subsequent years, as interest grew,

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more and more of them were observed.

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By the mid-80s, they’d become a fairly well-known phenomenon.

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They were reported in the media and caused quite a lot of comment and the main way that they were

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explained at the time

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was in terms of whirlwinds

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the

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chief proponent of the whirlwind theory

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is an indefatigable

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fellow called Meadon

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who believes that

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they’re caused by

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plasma vortices, a new kind

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of previously unobserved whirlwind,

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which unlike ordinary whirlwinds which move across fields like dust devils

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and will therefore leave a trap,

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came into being at a single, localised, focused point

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and, by spinning around, created the sharply defined depression of the crop.

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By the mid-80eighties the phenomenon had developed

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so that instead of

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just single circles, circles appeared

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now with smaller circles around

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them, sometimes four circles

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spaced at equal intervals

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around the central circle.

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Sometimes with

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rims around them

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so there’d be the circle, then there’d be

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a gap of standing corn and then there’d be a gap of standing corn,

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and then there’d be a ring around the original circle.

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Meaden had to elaborate his plasma vortex theory now

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to account for vortices which could jump

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and create symmetrical patterns of vortices around the original circles.

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And as he elaborated his theories,

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so the phenomenon became more elaborate.

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He was one of the principal investigators at the time

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and he’s the editor of the Journal of Meteorology

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and the president of the Tornado and Storm Research Organisation,

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which is to do with curious weather phenomena.

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which is to do with curious weather phenomena.

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By 1988, phenomena had started appearing where you got rows of circles.

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By 1989, these had become more elaborate.

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And by 1990, the phenomena had become so extraordinarily elaborate that these aroused extremely widespread attention and

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media interest. There were ones where there were a series of rings joined together by

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lines with symmetrically placed boxes on the side and sometimes with cone-like structures

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coming off. Well, this was clearly a challenge for the plasma vortex theory,

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and Mead and Everin Genius elaborated it further

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so that these plasma vortices could now create things

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that looked more like Sumerian hieroglyphs than anything else.

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So his theory was elaborated ad hoc until this year.

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He had to resort to an additional hypothesis

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namely that these plasma vortices

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were organised by chaotic attractors

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well

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for some reason because Meaden

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claimed to have the

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principal scientific explanation

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for these, at first

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people thought well they were a curious phenomenon,

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an anomalous scientific phenomenon. As the phenomenon has become more and more elaborate,

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his attempt to explain the phenomenon in terms of seemingly normal natural forces has become

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less and less credible to many. In June 1990, there was a conference organised by him and his group in Oxford, in England,

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the culmination of which was supposed to be a general endorsement

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of the fact the phenomenon had now been solved in terms of the plasma vortex.

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However, just at the end of the conference,

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one of the investigators came in with a set of slides of the crop circles

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that had appeared within the few

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preceding weeks, which included

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these large Sumerian hieroglyph

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forms with series of rings,

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symmetrical boxes and so on.

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And the conference dissolved in

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disarray as everybody that

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needed realized that

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these extremely

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complex and symmetrical

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structures couldn’t conceivably be explained by the type of whirlwind theory he was putting forward.

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Because the whirlwind theory was so widely accepted

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as being the most rational scientific explanation for this,

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the hoax theory, which is one of the main alternatives,

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was not considered that seriously initially.

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As the phenomena got more elaborate,

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the phenomena has become more and more puzzling

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and more and more people have been driven to consider the hoax theory.

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There have been some definite hoaxes.

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One was commissioned by one of the popular daily newspapers in Britain,

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partly to outwit one of the rival newspapers

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who’d been giving a lot of coverage to Corn Circles.

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They were then able to show evidence of a hoax which

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was carried out by people commissioned by themselves to produce a spurious phenomenon.

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One appeared two years ago which was a fairly crudely executed hoax and to make the point

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that it was a hoax, Ouija boards were found in the middle of the circles when the hoax was discovered.

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So that one was clearly announcing itself as a hoax.

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Well, there are several features about these which perhaps I should mention by way of introduction.

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Firstly, they don’t occur just in single types of crops

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they mainly occur in cereal crops

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usually wheat and barley

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and other cereal crops

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but they also have been found in

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oilseed rape and other crops

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so they’re not confined to cereals

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but they’re mainly in cereal crops

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and just a footnote

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for the benefit of Americans what we in England called corn means all cereal

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crops so when people talk about corn circles they don’t mean circles of maize

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in maize fields maize is hardly grown in England and as far as I know these have

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never been observed in maize crops the The crop is flattened. The stems are not broken. They’re

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bent over, usually at the base. There’s two kinds of flattening. One is where the stem

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is bent, and the other, which happens in wet ground, is where the roots become loose and

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the whole plant goes over because the roots have provided very little resistance. Both

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these types of flattening occur naturally

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as a result of wind damage to crops,

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and in the trade they’re called lodging,

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where a crop falls over.

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When a crop falls over,

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if it’s still at the green and growing stage,

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then the growing ends of the thing

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will right themselves and start growing up again.

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This is a normal physiological response

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found in any flattened grass. So if the lodging occurs at an early stage in the growth of the crop

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then you get them regenerating and recovering and growing up. There’s nothing mysterious

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about this, it’s what happens to any crop whether lodged by wind, pressed over mechanically or in a crop circle.

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These crop circles have mostly been found in southwestern England and a remarkably high concentration is found around UFO centres like Warminster.

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There’s a particular hill near Warminster which is a centre of UFO sightings

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and they’ve been found around there.

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They’ve been found near to Stonehenge

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near to Avebury, Silbury Hill

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and East and West

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East and West

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Kenet, Long Barrows

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a whole complex

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of megalithic remains

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in Wiltshire

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and they’ve been

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found near Winchester

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and other places where there are ancient centres.

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So there’s a curious association of these with some of the prime complexes in England of megalithic remains and megalithic sites.

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They’re often within a few miles of them.

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And some of the best ones have been sites where you can actually stand on Silbury Hill and off them. And some of the best ones have been, you can actually stand on Silbury

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Hill and see them. This year there were something like eight or nine within two miles of Avebury

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in that particular complex. The patterns, as I’ve already mentioned, have been rapidly

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evolving from simple circles, they’ve moved on to complexes of circles

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then to these lines of circles

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joined with boxes around

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and sometimes with semicircles at the end

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this year the elaboration continued further

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ones appeared with ladder type patterns patterns in them, and perhaps

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the most remarkable of all occurred in July 1991, involving a circle in the middle, a

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ring around it, a triangle over that, and at the apices of the triangle further circles containing different spiral patterns in each.

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This last one is remarkably like the centre of a crop circle study’s logo, which consists

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of a circle with a triangle and rings at the end. And the ones with ladders which appeared

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this year are very like pictures of Neolithic rock markings which were published

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in an article earlier in the year comparing crop circles to archaic artefacts in Europe,

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drawing attention to the fact that some of them are like ball and ring markings. And

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there were some of the pictures in this book which showed ladder formations,

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very similar to the ones that subsequently appeared.

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Well, there have also been sightings of crop circles in other parts of England,

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and a few have been reported from parts of the US, Australia, Crimea, and elsewhere.

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from parts of the US, Australia, Crimea and elsewhere.

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The evolution of the phenomenon, and also its spread, is very remarkable.

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In 1990 there were over 400 circles or formations in fields,

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whereas the total recorded number up to 1990 from 1980 onwards only came to about 400. So the number of these is increasing quite rapidly.

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This year the season started late, 1991, partly because we had a wet spring.

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Apparently they’re deterred by rainy weather. The peak time for the occurrence of these

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is in May, June and July

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when the crops are still growing.

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Some occur in August,

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but in August the crops are maturing,

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becoming, drying up,

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and they’re harvested typically in August.

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So there’s a limited season

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when the phenomenon appears.

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You don’t get them between August and May because

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there are no standing crops or

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in the earlier part of the spring

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they’ve hardly grown at all.

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Attempts have been made to observe

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them forming. People have

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set up structures, observed fields

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with field glasses, infrared

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recording apparatus, and so forth. There have been various accounts of mysterious blue lights,

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buzzing noises, humming noises, some of which have been recorded on tape recorders, and

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other peculiar phenomena. Dowsers, occultists, parapsychological researchers

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ufologists

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and all kinds of people

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interested in paranormal phenomena

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fortians and so on

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have been drawn to these phenomena in droves

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and attempts to explain them

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in terms of occult forces

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dowsing lines, ley lines and so on

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are so numerous that it would take many hours to go through them all.

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The remarkable thing though is that almost every hypothesis that’s been put forward to explain them

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is either refuted by the facts or even more mind-boggling than the phenomenon itself. The variety of theories

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include migrating hedgehogs, removing in circles, mysterious fungus and viral diseases occurring

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in patterns in the fields, of course the plasma vortex theory, and then a whole range of other theories

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which fall into two main categories

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the top down theory

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that has the patterning influence

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coming from above

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like in the wind, the air

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or by some

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force coming down from above

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or the bottom up theory

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that has the patterns emerging through the earth

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and somehow weakening the crop so that it falls over, possibly by the agency of wind,

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but a kind of weakening force moving up from the earth. So you could call these the Gaian

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theory, moving up from the earth, or the celestial theory, forces moving down from above.

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It’s perfectly clear now to everybody involved in the field that

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these involve some kind of designing intelligence. They’re obviously not merely random patterns

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caused by chance natural phenomena. The fact that the complexity of the phenomena has increased

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so much in the few years that they’ve been observed can’t be explained

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simply in terms of more people

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looking out for them, therefore patterns being

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seen which were not seen before

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these are huge structures, it’s impossible

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that

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especially in the last ten years

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structures of the complexity observed

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in the last two or three years could have occurred

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in that part of England and not been observed

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of course people involved in trying to explain naturalistically last two or three years could have occurred in that part of England and not been observed.

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Of course, people involved in trying to explain them naturalistically have to try and say they’ve always happened, it’s just that no one observed them before. It’s only the press

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attention that’s led to them being observed. And so when we come to the present state of

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play, it’s clear to everyone that there’s some kind of intelligence

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involved, some kind of patterning or formative influence. The two main categories of explanation

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that have been put forward involve, first, the hoax theory, that the whole thing is an

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incredibly elaborate hoax involving a great deal of precision, planning, commando-like skills masterminded

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by people of extraordinary imagination and intelligence, and so far with complete secrecy

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on the part of all those involved. Or that we’re dealing here with a phenomenon so remarkable

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that it goes off the end of the scale of any previously known

00:20:49 ►

poltergeist, fortian or other such paranormal phenomenon

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because of its evolving nature, the intelligence behind it

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and the fact that it has a kind of sense of humour

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and interacts with what we think about them.

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Whatever theory is put forward, the phenomenon seems to refute within the next year. One

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of the very few generalisations you can make is that they never cross field boundaries.

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They’ve never yet been observed to straddle a hedge, for example, between two fields.

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But almost because that generalisation has been made there are some people in the Centre for Crop Circle Studies

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who expect that that will in fact happen next year

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so in summary I think what they present is a kind of koan

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a kind of puzzle which evolves year by year

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which is a definite phenomenon that’s unmistakable

00:21:42 ►

can be photographed and is photographed

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reported in the national press and the local media, on television,

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discussed throughout Britain and increasingly in other parts of the world,

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but for which the mind can find no single satisfying explanation,

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because any attempt to come up with such an explanation seems to be refuted by the facts

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or can be countered by some alternative explanation.

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So they present a real enigma or riddle, which in my opinion is yet completely unsolved.

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Can I hold them in?

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Hold them.

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Well, I think to take the most synthetic view to your presentation, the most radical hypothesis behind the Enigma,

00:22:39 ►

something like intelligent species on the twelfth planet with a ray gun or a powerful force

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or whatever you please.

00:22:48 ►

An external intelligence really trying seriously

00:22:53 ►

to communicate with us.

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Let’s say, I like this, I am ready to go.

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And before even so,

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we could interpret the phenomenon,

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we would be required by every consideration

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to completely eliminate the hoax theory.

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So even the UFO theorists, I think, would agree,

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before you could start listing some more

00:23:26 ►

or less

00:23:27 ►

credible explanations

00:23:30 ►

you would have

00:23:32 ►

to dispose of the hoax theory

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or give your argument why it’s extremely

00:23:36 ►

improbable or something like that

00:23:38 ►

this would just, in service

00:23:39 ►

in proper service to

00:23:41 ►

the traditional

00:23:43 ►

cognitive style of this planet

00:23:45 ►

and trying to give the best service to the intelligence of the other planet.

00:23:53 ►

And yet, it seems in your discussion

00:23:57 ►

and in the discussions I’ve read in the journals and books,

00:24:09 ►

journals and books, there is no argument is given to rule out or diminish the likelihood of the hoax theory. So this is the point, first of all, that I’m not understanding.

00:24:16 ►

I need to dispose somehow of what seems to me the likeliest explanation in order to give any theories consideration to alternative explanations.

00:24:31 ►

All right, so let us consider the hoax theory.

00:24:35 ►

Since Terence is such an expert at elaborate conspiracy theories,

00:24:41 ►

perhaps this would fall to him to provide an explanation. I think the main reason

00:24:46 ►

why people who are involved in investigating it don’t think they’re all hoaxes. Almost

00:24:56 ►

everyone who I know who’s actually investigated and been there, including farmers in whose

00:25:00 ►

fields they appear, the policemen in the aerial patrol whom we met when we visited one in Nottshire,

00:25:08 ►

the people who’ve seen them on the ground

00:25:13 ►

and who’ve seen most of them.

00:25:15 ►

There’s hardly anyone who’s actually acquainted

00:25:17 ►

with the phenomena at first hand

00:25:19 ►

who thinks they’re all hoaxes.

00:25:21 ►

The people who think they’re all hoaxes

00:25:22 ►

are people who’ve never seen them,

00:25:24 ►

who sit in armchairs, and the armchair sceptics are convinced…

00:25:29 ►

But why? What is it that has made you personally to think that a hoax is unlikely, not a likely

00:25:37 ►

explanation?

00:25:46 ►

Well, first of all, the fact that the hoaxes haven’t been detected, if so.

00:25:55 ►

Secondly, that when looking at the phenomena,

00:26:00 ►

it’s very hard to conceive how the whole thing could have been executed.

00:26:03 ►

Thirdly, and probably the most important objection,

00:26:06 ►

that for such a hoax to have been perpetrated over a ten-year period would require an extreme elaborateness of organisation,

00:26:13 ►

dedication on the part of quite a large number of people, military precision in planning

00:26:20 ►

and execution, ability to do these things under the nose of teams of investigators

00:26:25 ►

who spend all night trying to find out how they’re done. They often occur within a few

00:26:30 ►

hundred yards of investigators trying to track the phenomenon and somehow don’t detect them.

00:26:40 ►

An imagination and intelligence of a high order,

00:26:48 ►

and a dedication to this cause,

00:26:50 ►

which is rare among hoaxers,

00:26:53 ►

a persistent hoax going on for over ten years,

00:26:57 ►

showing remarkably skilful elaboration,

00:26:58 ►

so that to start with,

00:27:01 ►

the phenomena are quite simple and straightforward,

00:27:09 ►

and therefore can easily be accepted as if they are created by whirlwinds. That does seem a plausible explanation for the occasional circle of this kind. And then, carefully building up so that the thing becomes more and more intriguing

00:27:15 ►

and peculiar, it’s just that a hoax on that scale and of that kind seems exceedingly improbable.

00:27:25 ►

It’s difficult to think who could have done it,

00:27:28 ►

how they could have maintained the secrecy,

00:27:30 ►

what could have motivated them,

00:27:32 ►

and what kind of dedication and skills could have been involved.

00:27:37 ►

So the hoax theory, if it was just one,

00:27:40 ►

the hoax theory would be very plausible.

00:27:41 ►

But a phenomenon over such a long time period,

00:27:44 ►

now with ones turning up in other parts of the world as well,

00:27:47 ►

on increasing level, 400 of them last year,

00:27:51 ►

in different parts of Britain,

00:27:53 ►

this requires quite a large effort.

00:27:55 ►

So are there documented cases with photographs

00:27:58 ►

from other parts of the world?

00:28:00 ►

I mean, I keep hearing that they’ve been observed

00:28:02 ►

in Russia and Canada and so on, but I haven’t seen any.

00:28:05 ►

I haven’t yet seen any documented evidence for these,

00:28:09 ►

except that the people who say they’ve seen them seem reasonably reliable.

00:28:14 ►

So in terms of some kind of actual conviction,

00:28:18 ►

you would think it’s so conceivable that it would be discovered that it’s a hoax,

00:28:25 ►

and then the whole phenomenon would be forgotten.

00:28:28 ►

That’s not totally ruled out.

00:28:29 ►

There are various reasons

00:28:31 ►

to say that it’s very improbable.

00:28:34 ►

A matter of scale, secrecy,

00:28:36 ►

persistence in time, and so on.

00:28:38 ►

Is it more improbable

00:28:40 ►

than any other explanation?

00:28:42 ►

Can one think of a more

00:28:44 ►

probable explanation

00:28:46 ►

than that it’s a hoax?

00:28:49 ►

It seems to me any other explanation

00:28:51 ►

will be orders of magnitude more improbable

00:28:55 ►

than that it’s a hoax.

00:28:58 ►

Well, I don’t…

00:28:59 ►

It depends where you come from.

00:29:01 ►

You see, someone who was a sceptic

00:29:05 ►

would be forced to that

00:29:08 ►

hypothesis, whatever happened.

00:29:10 ►

The Humean sceptical

00:29:12 ►

position, where Hume’s argument

00:29:14 ►

against miracles is that

00:29:16 ►

miracles occur rarely,

00:29:18 ►

they’re extremely improbable, it’s far

00:29:20 ►

more probable that these are all either

00:29:22 ►

conjuring tricks, deceptions or illusions.

00:29:25 ►

This is a standard rationalist position. And I think for anyone who takes a rationalist

00:29:31 ►

or sceptical point of view, the hoax theory will always be a priori the best theory, whatever

00:29:37 ►

happens, whatever the phenomenon. For those who think paranormal phenomena are likely

00:29:43 ►

even probable, for people who subscribe to the Fortune Times, for members of the Society for the Psychical Research, and so on, then the possibility that some other forms of intelligence may be communicating with us in some way at this crucial juncture in human history has a certain plausibility.

00:30:01 ►

crucial juncture in human history has a certain plausibility

00:30:03 ►

but

00:30:05 ►

the phenomenon you see rather depends

00:30:07 ►

on what you believe to start with

00:30:09 ►

that’s a very interesting point because it’s as if

00:30:12 ►

again assuming

00:30:15 ►

I mean I really want to believe

00:30:18 ►

that the paranormal forces will be

00:30:20 ►

revealed with superhuman

00:30:21 ►

intelligence and speak to us

00:30:23 ►

like the United Dolphins and speak to us like a room of massive dolphins could speak to us

00:30:26 ►

00:30:27 ►

from that perspective

00:30:30 ►

that means that this intelligence

00:30:32 ►

has chosen a way to speak to us

00:30:34 ►

which will be misunderstood

00:30:36 ►

in most people

00:30:38 ►

I mean it almost appears to be

00:30:40 ►

intentionally disguised

00:30:42 ►

as a hoax

00:30:43 ►

starting from the simplest forms

00:30:45 ►

where a plasma vortex theory could conceivably apply,

00:30:48 ►

gradually separating the men from the boys, as it were.

00:30:52 ►

Let us find a way of speaking

00:30:54 ►

which is a whisper of intelligence to one group

00:30:57 ►

and is absolutely ridiculous to another group.

00:31:00 ►

It’s a great idea.

00:31:03 ►

It isn’t communication.

00:31:05 ►

It’s anti-communication.

00:31:07 ►

It’s kind of anti-communication.

00:31:09 ►

Can I wade into this?

00:31:11 ►

Yes.

00:31:14 ►

Well, let’s see.

00:31:16 ►

First of all, in trying to understand any unsolved mystery or unknown phenomenon,

00:31:24 ►

it seems to me the Western mind has developed a number of tools

00:31:29 ►

that have general application,

00:31:32 ►

one of them being what’s called Occam’s razor,

00:31:35 ►

that hypotheses should not be multiplied without necessity,

00:31:40 ►

so that we should seek the simplest explanation and force it to fail before we move on to time travelers, space travelers, to luric forces, and so forth and so on.

00:31:58 ►

There are a number of things about this that seem to me to argue very, very strongly that it is a hoax.

00:32:09 ►

First of all, and in your description of it, Rupert, there were all the,

00:32:17 ►

if it is shown to be a hoax, we could replay the tape of your description of it.

00:32:22 ►

It’s consistent with it being a hoax and with the tape of your description of it. It’s consistent in every way. And it’s consistent with it being a hoax

00:32:27 ►

and with the explanation of it being right under the surface.

00:32:31 ►

You speak of how it could only be done by a commando-style operation.

00:32:38 ►

It would require an organization with great self-discipline and secrecy,

00:32:53 ►

that, oddly enough, every explanation is then met with a crop circle which torpedoes that explanation.

00:32:58 ►

The people who are attracted to the phenomenon,

00:33:02 ►

it occurs within driving distance of their doorstep

00:33:06 ►

in an area with a history of unusual phenomena,

00:33:12 ►

so forth and so on.

00:33:14 ►

It seems to me that the likely explanation

00:33:20 ►

is that we’re dealing with not a hoax so much as an experiment,

00:33:28 ►

an experiment in deception.

00:33:34 ►

It’s a deception.

00:33:36 ►

Someone is studying how people react to the paranormal.

00:33:43 ►

One of the most puzzling things about this entire thing is

00:33:46 ►

that no one has ever seen one of these things

00:33:50 ►

in the act of coming into existence.

00:33:54 ►

So we get before and we get after.

00:33:58 ►

The hoax theory would be completely shot out of the water

00:34:03 ►

by videotape of these cereal grains lying down in a pattern.

00:34:09 ►

And I predict that we will never obtain such videotape

00:34:15 ►

because I’ll bet you to see it happening is to see how it’s done.

00:34:22 ►

And that the absence of this videotape is a strong indication that

00:34:30 ►

this is a disinformation project.

00:34:32 ►

That’s the most devious argument I’ve ever heard.

00:34:36 ►

Why is it devious? If you can’t catch it in the act, it means that seeing how it’s done

00:34:42 ►

will tell you how it’s done.

00:34:49 ►

Yes, but that’s very clever of it to always be invisible.

00:34:55 ►

Or very necessary for it to keep from blowing its own cover.

00:35:01 ►

Rupert said it’s discussed by all and everyone in the UK.

00:35:08 ►

That is obviously the intent of whatever is behind it. He said it displays humor. Now, humor is one of the most human of all characteristics. Polish jokes

00:35:18 ►

don’t even make sense outside of Poland, yet this has humor. We’re told that it is the product of a designing agency.

00:35:30 ►

We’re told that blue lights and humming noises are associated with it,

00:35:36 ►

as if these facts made it more mysterious.

00:35:39 ►

They don’t make it more mysterious.

00:35:41 ►

They make it less mysterious.

00:35:43 ►

They make it more mysterious. They make it less mysterious.

00:35:53 ►

And to my mind, the most astonishing fact about all this, which seems to pose no problem for the English,

00:36:07 ►

is that their own ministry of defense shows no alarm whatsoever over this phenomenon. Here are nightly trespasses of law-abiding English property owners,

00:36:11 ►

violations of the airspace of the United Kingdom,

00:36:15 ►

and the government maintains a blithe aloofness.

00:36:21 ►

And I dare say, I’m sure there are nuclear weapons storage areas

00:36:24 ►

within driving distance of these areas. It’s seriously exhausted chasing UFOs for the past 20 years.

00:36:28 ►

Well, so here’s my notion of what is going on.

00:36:33 ►

Every intelligence agency on Earth that does its work well

00:36:40 ►

has within it special units that are devoted to studying the paranormal

00:36:47 ►

both as a real possibility and as a potential disinformation tool

00:36:54 ►

to be used against their enemies.

00:36:58 ►

And in spite of the fact that in other discussions Rupert has somewhat disparaged, is it MI5?

00:37:08 ►

Yes.

00:37:08 ►

The world reputation of MI5 is that it contains some of the subtlest thinkers

00:37:16 ►

that any intelligence agency on earth has ever brought under its…

00:37:21 ►

H.G.E.M. Fleming, the best expert.

00:37:24 ►

Well, Alan Turing,

00:37:25 ►

so forth and so on. We could go on and on

00:37:27 ►

about this. So, I

00:37:29 ►

suspect that an experiment

00:37:32 ►

is in progress

00:37:33 ►

to see how people

00:37:36 ►

react to

00:37:38 ►

a phenomenon which

00:37:39 ►

defies explanation.

00:37:42 ►

And every time an explanation

00:37:44 ►

is brought forth, the phenomenon is redesigned

00:37:47 ►

to destroy and discredit the explanation. It’s a deep cover study of the semiotics of

00:37:58 ►

deception. And this seems to me a very good way for an intelligence agency to spend its money.

00:38:08 ►

This is the business intelligence agencies are in, is deception.

00:38:14 ►

Now, the people who are participating in this on the front lines,

00:38:19 ►

the lay liners, the dowsers, the UFO enthusiasts, and the Tulluruses,

00:38:26 ►

are simply dupes.

00:38:29 ►

And a population, the easiest population on earth to dupe,

00:38:34 ►

any stage magician will tell you that the easiest people to fool

00:38:40 ►

are people who believe in magic.

00:38:42 ►

They have already come over to your side.

00:38:47 ►

Now, in the United States,

00:38:51 ►

a somewhat similar phenomenon occurred

00:38:54 ►

somewhat earlier in time,

00:38:56 ►

which were cattle mutilations.

00:39:00 ►

And much was made of this,

00:39:02 ►

and the same crowd of people manned the front lines

00:39:07 ►

and announced that aliens were experimenting with bovine pituitary glands and so forth and so on.

00:39:15 ►

And, in fact, I believe what was happening was a similar effort on the part of the CIA to start a disinformation backfire

00:39:29 ►

to the spreading cult of allegiance to UFOs.

00:39:36 ►

There is a method for looking at this kind of phenomenon

00:39:39 ►

where you analyze what it’s doing in terms of its effect on society,

00:39:46 ►

and then you can reason back to its causes.

00:39:52 ►

I knew we’d get deconstruction soon.

00:39:54 ►

What this phenomenon is doing is casting doubt on scientific orthodoxy.

00:40:03 ►

The story of the gentleman…

00:40:05 ►

The gentleman who knows.

00:40:06 ►

Yes, the gentleman who called the conference to have his theory sanctioned,

00:40:11 ►

who had his conference dissolve in chaos when evidence was brought in that was completely

00:40:18 ►

outside the purvey of his theory, was simply… he was made a monkey of by this agency.

00:40:28 ►

So I think that I find this all very, very interesting.

00:40:32 ►

But I think we should be very cautious of lining up with the people

00:40:37 ►

who proclaim that friendly Zenebel Ganubians

00:40:41 ►

or people from a far-flung future are communicating

00:40:46 ►

because nothing is being communicated.

00:40:50 ►

And in the absence of the observation of the phenomenon in progress,

00:40:55 ►

I think it would be absurd to go outside the conjuring power of reason

00:41:06 ►

and just say this is an intelligence operation in progress

00:41:11 ►

and deception and the mechanics of deception

00:41:17 ►

and the sociological response to deception

00:41:21 ►

is being very, very carefully studied.

00:41:24 ►

I find it fascinating that from August to

00:41:27 ►

May, it can’t happen. I submit this is the period when the data is analyzed and next year’s designs

00:41:37 ►

are planned and perhaps training is carried out in other parts of the world where the commandos, if it is true that these things are occurring in other parts of the world, then that may be where the practice takes place.

00:41:53 ►

I would suspect that it actually isn’t going on in other parts of the world and that it’s simply the enthusiasm of the ley line people to make this claim.

00:42:05 ►

The whole thing seems to me beneath our intelligence.

00:42:14 ►

It’s directed toward the mass mind.

00:42:18 ►

It’s a dialogue between MI5 and the tabloids

00:42:23 ►

with the gullible haplessly caught in between

00:42:27 ►

and the rest of us able to look down with a small smile

00:42:32 ►

at all this sound and fury over nothing.

00:42:40 ►

It’s extremely implausible

00:42:43 ►

for anyone who’s brought up in Britain

00:42:47 ►

and knows the kind of official set-up there

00:42:49 ►

to think that an intelligence agency in Britain could have the imagination

00:42:54 ►

that such an imaginative scheme could be sanctioned by whatever committers are in power

00:42:59 ►

that they should have the motivation to discredit science in the eyes of the public or that

00:43:05 ►

any official body could carry on

00:43:08 ►

for so long in the spirit of mischief

00:43:10 ►

more implausible

00:43:12 ►

than that aliens

00:43:14 ►

from another dimension

00:43:15 ►

are writing incomprehensible

00:43:18 ►

glyphs in the cornfields of England

00:43:20 ►

no the main

00:43:21 ►

the main theory that appeals

00:43:23 ►

to people on the paranormal front in England is not aliens.

00:43:29 ►

Aliens and the UFO thing subsided into the background quite early.

00:43:34 ►

You see, when you had circles with symmetrical smaller circles around them, placed in fours or even fives,

00:43:41 ►

the ufologists said, well, this is obviously the landing marks of an alien spacecraft.

00:43:48 ►

However, as soon as they’d said that,

00:43:50 ►

the next year, ones of this kind appeared directly under power transmission lines,

00:43:56 ►

thus refuting the idea that any heavy object

00:43:58 ►

could have come down vertically from above and landed there.

00:44:01 ►

It would have had to come down, then move sideways,

00:44:04 ►

a large heavy heavy object,

00:44:06 ►

without having any effect on the surrounding crop,

00:44:08 ►

and then land,

00:44:09 ►

which is surely a devious way for it to happen.

00:44:12 ►

So the most obvious flying saucer-type theories

00:44:15 ►

were refuted by the phenomenon itself.

00:44:18 ►

The alien theory is a very rare one

00:44:21 ►

among the theories encountered.

00:44:23 ►

The one that I think is most popular among people who take seriously the phenomenon

00:44:30 ►

and think that the hoax theory is not the only possible explanation

00:44:34 ►

is that the spirit of the land itself or earth mysteries long embedded in these ancient megalithic monuments

00:44:43 ►

are sort of coming back to life again

00:44:45 ►

and somehow are being reactivated in Britain’s hour of need.

00:44:49 ►

Or that Gaia, the Gaian intelligence or the Gaian mind itself

00:44:55 ►

is involved in some ongoing dialogue or communication

00:44:59 ►

which principally has the effect, year by year,

00:45:04 ►

of attracting more and more attention.

00:45:07 ►

And the message, year by year, seems to be, watch this space.

00:45:12 ►

Well, I would make a series of predictions about this phenomenon.

00:45:18 ►

The strongest prediction that I would make is,

00:45:21 ►

it will simply be eventually exposed as exactly what I said it was, a government

00:45:28 ►

disinformation study, because if the British government is as bungling as you say it is,

00:45:36 ►

then eventually they will drop the ball. That would be my first prediction, and the whole

00:45:42 ►

thing will be exposed as a study of disinformation and deception.

00:45:47 ►

Especially now with the budget problems.

00:45:49 ►

If that doesn’t happen, then I would make the following two predictions.

00:45:54 ►

We will never see film or videotape of one of these things in the act of happening,

00:46:00 ►

and the phenomenon will stop very suddenly of its own accord

00:46:06 ►

because the project will end.

00:46:09 ►

One point I didn’t get to make in my attack

00:46:13 ►

is you mentioned that it is deterred by rainy weather.

00:46:18 ►

I submit to you this is simply because in rainy weather

00:46:21 ►

it’s harder to cover your tracks.

00:46:27 ►

You’re going to leave footprints, helicopter skid marks, or whatever it is,

00:46:31 ►

that rainy weather makes it more difficult to carry out the deception.

00:46:37 ►

So I think we will never see videotape or film of this,

00:46:41 ►

and that it will either go away very suddenly when the project is completed

00:46:46 ►

or some at night a number of these lay liners will stumble on mi5’s group hard at work

00:46:56 ►

making a crop circle green and yellow stripes yes and anything else, I mean, I’m willing to be convinced, and I would say I’ll abandon

00:47:06 ►

my position if I

00:47:08 ►

see film of it in progress.

00:47:10 ►

That’s what we need.

00:47:12 ►

It’s intolerable

00:47:14 ►

to claim that this is going

00:47:16 ►

on on such a large scale,

00:47:18 ►

and no one can come.

00:47:19 ►

It must take many minutes

00:47:22 ►

to make one of these things, even if

00:47:24 ►

you were a commando team.

00:47:25 ►

And unless we’re asked to believe it happens instantly, it seems that the strangest thing about it is that we never catch it in the act.

00:47:37 ►

And also, I do find the silence of the British government absolutely beyond understanding,

00:47:45 ►

unless they are at the highest levels fully informed.

00:47:49 ►

The American government had a UFO project, but it was top secret,

00:47:53 ►

so they might be interested in a way that we don’t know about.

00:47:57 ►

Terence, I don’t like this idea of making a large bet on this single theory. I agree that from our perspective

00:48:08 ►

the hoax theories have not been diminished in probability enough

00:48:15 ►

and that Occam’s razor does seem to apply.

00:48:19 ►

And among hoax theories, I would say your military version

00:48:22 ►

is maybe, let us just suppose it’s the most likely hoax theory.

00:48:30 ►

It still seems to me that you could be the dupe,

00:48:35 ►

because we have these very interesting precedents, if they be precedents.

00:48:39 ►

The Vedas, the Bible, the sacred books, they are written in several levels.

00:48:47 ►

In the Vedas they have four levels of communication.

00:48:51 ►

The Bible has two clear levels

00:48:54 ►

that are constantly interpreted

00:48:56 ►

and hermeneutics and put before us.

00:48:59 ►

There is a level for ordinary stupid people

00:49:02 ►

and there is another level for elite spiritual devotees.

00:49:09 ►

So here we have a phenomenon where if a Gaia is speaking to us, I mean, in case it’s not a hoax,

00:49:15 ►

in case it’s not a hoax, then what is it?

00:49:17 ►

It does seem to be disguised as a hoax, that’s true.

00:49:20 ►

But there would be a reason for that, you see.

00:49:23 ►

And all people who believe it’s a hoax,

00:49:25 ►

when as a matter of fact it’s a divine communication,

00:49:28 ►

those people are dupes.

00:49:29 ►

As in the case of the Bible,

00:49:31 ►

there are a lot of people who think it’s just history and so on.

00:49:34 ►

Well, but even the people who don’t believe it’s a hoax

00:49:38 ►

are of many minds about what it is.

00:49:43 ►

It doesn’t seem to be clearly communicating anything to anybody.

00:49:49 ►

Well, the interpretation of the Bible is also not so clear.

00:49:53 ►

Well, this is anti-communication.

00:49:57 ►

In other words, what in the world is the point of opening a channel

00:50:03 ►

and then sending noise through the channel.

00:50:07 ►

Well, as you were saying about Cain and Abel,

00:50:10 ►

exactly who did they mate with

00:50:11 ►

to produce the legions that followed?

00:50:14 ►

Is this noise?

00:50:15 ►

Is this a story?

00:50:18 ►

Well, I don’t feel the force

00:50:20 ►

of calling on the Vedas or the Bible at all.

00:50:23 ►

The very fact that you have to reach back that far

00:50:27 ►

shows the desperate effort to save the phenomenon.

00:50:32 ►

It seems to me that this is quite a tight little explanation,

00:50:39 ►

and I’m sure that the British government

00:50:42 ►

doesn’t dismiss the safety of its thermonuclear weapons

00:50:46 ►

by appealing to the double level of the Vedas.

00:50:50 ►

I think that we should bet on the red and we should bet on the black.

00:50:55 ►

Probably you’re right. Probably it’s a hoax.

00:50:58 ►

In case it’s a hoax, probably it’s the military. All right.

00:51:01 ►

Military, all right.

00:51:07 ►

But just as the fanatics of this phenomenon can’t reduce the hoax theory to zero,

00:51:10 ►

neither can we reduce the non-hoax theory to zero.

00:51:13 ►

Therefore, we have to keep our eyes open

00:51:15 ►

in case it begins to actually say some understandable intelligence to us.

00:51:21 ►

We can’t dismiss it completely.

00:51:22 ►

We have to keep watching the photographs.

00:51:24 ►

It doesn’t even have to say something intelligent to us. We can’t dismiss it completely. We have to keep watching the photographs. It doesn’t even have to say something intelligent to us. It just has to happen while we’re looking

00:51:32 ►

at it. That would bring every newspaper on earth would report it. Well, why not? Is it

00:51:42 ►

trying to communicate? What would it lose by being seen in the act of

00:51:46 ►

happening we see that it happens

00:51:49 ►

00:51:50 ►

I produced a video tape and said

00:51:52 ►

here’s the thing taken by the

00:51:54 ►

Centre for Crop Circle Studies team

00:51:56 ►

in the field here’s the video

00:51:58 ►

here you can see the stalks

00:52:01 ►

being flattened

00:52:02 ►

if you didn’t say it

00:52:04 ►

certainly members of PSYCOP and sceptical organisations would.

00:52:08 ►

This videotape is a hoax.

00:52:09 ►

It’s a hoax.

00:52:10 ►

But the people who are out there…

00:52:11 ►

No, but they would be on the defensive.

00:52:14 ►

Right now, it’s the ley-liners who are on the defensive.

00:52:18 ►

No, they’re not on the defensive.

00:52:19 ►

That’s why they watch for it.

00:52:22 ►

That’s why they’re so keen to watch.

00:52:24 ►

They know that seeing it happen is a key event in the evolution of the phenomenon.

00:52:30 ►

Well, everybody agrees that it would be interesting to be able to record one happening.

00:52:34 ►

It would be the crux of the matter.

00:52:36 ►

Well, that’s why people are out there investigating it, you see.

00:52:38 ►

But anyone who’s out there investigating it,

00:52:41 ►

well, whatever they find, have their testimony doubted,

00:52:45 ►

unless they happen to find people actually

00:52:47 ►

photographs of clear-cut evidence

00:52:50 ►

of military people flattening it.

00:52:52 ►

Now, you see, the trouble is

00:52:54 ►

nothing will prove it either way.

00:52:56 ►

That’s my point.

00:52:56 ►

If you have a picture of the military

00:52:59 ►

involved in a hoax, or non-military,

00:53:01 ►

or anybody else,

00:53:02 ►

then some people will say

00:53:04 ►

that proves they’re all hoaxes.

00:53:07 ►

Others will say, well, we’ve always known that some of them are hoaxes

00:53:10 ►

and this is just one of the hoaxes, but the others aren’t.

00:53:12 ►

That’s right. This happened with the cattle mutilations.

00:53:15 ►

No matter how many times they found military scalpels at the site

00:53:20 ►

and saw helicopters departing from the site, the hard core continued to claim that there was a residuum of these phenomena

00:53:30 ►

that were in fact aliens connecting pineal glands.

00:53:34 ►

Well, there’s very little difference between a low-speed helicopter and a UFO.

00:53:42 ►

Well, except where they come from.

00:53:49 ►

But you can’t tell where they come from I don’t see why you have such a need to close the issue in advance

00:53:51 ►

you see I think the reasonable position

00:53:53 ►

is to keep an open mind

00:53:54 ►

the hoax theory is one theory

00:53:55 ►

it has a certain plausibility

00:53:57 ►

it’s the one that involves the least

00:53:59 ►

it involves a very considerable

00:54:02 ►

stretching of one’s mind

00:54:04 ►

and credulity about the powers of the British government

00:54:08 ►

or organisations in Britain to do something like this.

00:54:11 ►

It involves the least offence to ordinary scientific rationalism.

00:54:16 ►

It involves the same kind of Occam’s razor principle

00:54:18 ►

by which many would dismiss claims, for example,

00:54:22 ►

of elf sightings under the influence of hallucinogens.

00:54:25 ►

Well, but this is a repeatable phenomenon.

00:54:28 ►

If you don’t think elves can be observed under DMT, smoke DMT and see.

00:54:36 ►

This doesn’t have that kind of straightforward, this has that weird, slippery,

00:54:43 ►

you know, for the believer it’s obvious,

00:54:46 ►

for the non-believer it’s nonsense kind of thing.

00:54:50 ►

Well, I think the DMT and elf sighting is a parallel,

00:54:54 ►

since in some areas you side with the rationalists and others with the non-rationalists.

00:55:01 ►

The elf sightings under the influence of DMT are not seen by all who take DMT

00:55:05 ►

according to the only scientific study of the subject.

00:55:08 ►

But some do.

00:55:09 ►

It’s seen by two people out of twelve.

00:55:12 ►

Well, but what’s claimed here is a massive violation of physics,

00:55:22 ►

a complete breakdown of natural law over hundreds of square meters, on very

00:55:30 ►

little evidence, on some trampled down crops.

00:55:37 ►

We’ll talk about a mountain out of a molehill, and I submit to you, you keep avoiding directly addressing this.

00:55:46 ►

Why isn’t the British government

00:55:49 ►

concerned about the violation

00:55:51 ►

of its sovereignty in airspace?

00:55:54 ►

I mean, somebody…

00:55:55 ►

That’s actually never been raised.

00:55:56 ►

Well, why not?

00:55:58 ►

Because in Britain,

00:55:59 ►

there’s this kind of defense paranoia thing.

00:56:02 ►

It is not.

00:56:03 ►

That’s a very odd culture bound.

00:56:06 ►

It’s like I see you as a painted cannibal when you explain to me that Britain is different.

00:56:13 ►

We don’t really care about the security of our thermonuclear weapons and air bases.

00:56:19 ►

That’s an odd cultural phenomenon that you Americans seem to have developed.

00:56:24 ►

odd cultural phenomenon that you Americans seem to have developed. We’re quite casual about securing our thermonuclear weapon depots.

00:56:30 ►

Are you serious?

00:56:32 ►

Well, then, there are more American thermonuclear weapons in Britain than there are British ones.

00:56:38 ►

Well, then the CIA, then good old American paranoia must be quite agitated by this kind of thing.

00:56:48 ►

Well, possibly.

00:56:49 ►

As soon as UFOs were reported in the United States,

00:56:52 ►

the first thing that happened was they said,

00:56:55 ►

what is the president’s position on this?

00:56:58 ►

And the president said,

00:56:59 ►

we’re immediately appointing a blue ribbon committee to look into this

00:57:04 ►

and it will report to me

00:57:06 ►

and the Congress and I assure

00:57:08 ►

the people of the United States

00:57:10 ►

blah blah blah blah. Okay, well let’s hear what they say

00:57:12 ►

in this case. Why don’t you write to your representative

00:57:14 ►

and say that you’re allowing

00:57:16 ►

these crop cycle phenomena happening

00:57:18 ►

in Britain within 20

00:57:20 ►

miles of the US. But apparently there’s

00:57:22 ►

one or two in the United States.

00:57:24 ►

Well, this gets very shaky.

00:57:26 ►

But it’s for sure they’re happening in Britain.

00:57:29 ►

And for sure there are lots of American nuclear weapons there,

00:57:32 ►

far more than there are British nuclear weapons.

00:57:35 ►

So you could have the matter raised in Congress

00:57:37 ►

and we could get a statement from the President of the United States

00:57:40 ►

and him to appoint a commission on the subject straight away.

00:57:44 ►

Well, I’m sure what he would say was of the United States and him to appoint a commission on the subject straight away.

00:57:46 ►

Well, I’m sure what he would say was,

00:57:51 ►

on matters of the safety of thermonuclear weapons, we make no statements.

00:57:56 ►

However, we are in contact with the British government on this matter.

00:57:57 ►

Stay tuned.

00:57:59 ►

That’s what they would say. Well, then at least they would think further.

00:58:01 ►

Then you could ask a question a few months later and say, you know, what have you found out?

00:58:07 ►

If nothing, why not?

00:58:08 ►

What are we paying these intelligence services for?

00:58:11 ►

And it may then, if it’s forced to a political crisis in America with freedom of information and all the rest of it,

00:58:18 ►

force them to compel the British secret services to reveal that the whole thing is a military hoax.

00:58:25 ►

But don’t you find it odd that it’s never been raised in England?

00:58:29 ►

No, because it’s the kind of…

00:58:32 ►

This is not a soul in England who would think like that.

00:58:35 ►

No, the flattening of…

00:58:37 ►

You’re assuming all along that it’s a violation of airspace.

00:58:41 ►

The normal assumption that most people would have is that

00:58:46 ►

poxers arrive by car.

00:58:48 ►

Well, what are the attitudes of the

00:58:50 ►

farmers whose crops are ruined

00:58:52 ►

by this?

00:58:53 ►

Well, they vary in attitude.

00:58:55 ►

Some of them are puzzled and find the whole thing very

00:58:57 ►

mysterious. And some of them set up

00:58:59 ►

a sign and make a pound a person

00:59:02 ►

off of it. To get into it.

00:59:03 ►

But I should think some would

00:59:05 ►

be quite

00:59:07 ►

some people are very

00:59:09 ►

proprietary and to

00:59:12 ►

get up some morning and see

00:59:14 ►

your wheat crop

00:59:15 ►

ruined and a bunch of

00:59:17 ►

telluruses wandering around

00:59:19 ►

taking pictures.

00:59:21 ►

The police are doing what they can.

00:59:23 ►

They’re protecting their rear.

00:59:26 ►

They fly around in helicopters

00:59:27 ►

trying to prevent occurrences.

00:59:29 ►

If they see anybody rolling around in a crop circle,

00:59:32 ►

they attack them immediately.

00:59:33 ►

But to pretend that it stops at the constabulary level,

00:59:38 ►

I just…

00:59:39 ►

Well, that’s a good level for trespassing on farmers’ property.

00:59:44 ►

I think you have a…

00:59:49 ►

I just don’t get it.

00:59:52 ►

It’s obvious that the British government is fully informed of what’s going on

00:59:57 ►

and is not alarmed.

00:59:58 ►

And the only reason they’re not alarmed is because there’s nothing to be alarmed about.

01:00:05 ►

And the reason there’s nothing to be alarmed about is because

01:00:08 ►

MI5 is doing it.

01:00:09 ►

It’s so obvious that

01:00:11 ►

to think anything else is to

01:00:13 ►

you might as well line up with

01:00:15 ►

Elvis at the 7-11

01:00:18 ►

Well, let’s say it’s a good theory.

01:00:19 ►

All right, it’s a good theory and then we can

01:00:21 ►

discuss it. We’ve just put it on the list.

01:00:23 ►

Under the hypothesis that this is actually what’s happening all right now.

01:00:27 ►

They’re going to a fantastic expense over a period of ten years.

01:00:30 ►

They’ve done over a thousand crop circles so far,

01:00:33 ►

a considerable expense for much.

01:00:34 ►

Well, these agencies are well-funded.

01:00:37 ►

Of course, it could be the French intelligence services

01:00:40 ►

or the American or the Russian intelligence services

01:00:43 ►

making a statement proving to MI5

01:00:46 ►

that as a matter of fact there’s nothing they can do to apprehend them.

01:00:50 ►

But supposing it’s the, as you say,

01:00:54 ►

the simplest theory,

01:00:55 ►

the English military are doing this,

01:01:00 ►

making this expense as what?

01:01:02 ►

As an experiment in disinformation.

01:01:04 ►

Now let’s see what we can learn about disinformation from this.

01:01:09 ►

They get the results in the newspaper.

01:01:11 ►

They’re watching us.

01:01:12 ►

They’re reading the Journal of Seriology and so on.

01:01:14 ►

We can also read the Journal of Seriology.

01:01:17 ►

Let us be scientists.

01:01:18 ►

We’ll do some grassroots science here,

01:01:20 ►

and we’ll study the process of disinformation.

01:01:24 ►

Well, what have we learned?

01:01:25 ►

Well, we actually aren’t learning very much.

01:01:28 ►

You see, because we know that some people

01:01:29 ►

prefer

01:01:31 ►

to believe in the paranormal

01:01:33 ►

theories. Other people, like you,

01:01:36 ►

prefer to believe in the hoax

01:01:37 ►

theory. What actually does that tell us?

01:01:39 ►

Some people, like Meaden, prefer a kind of scientific theory

01:01:42 ►

based on…

01:01:42 ►

There’s actually three categories of theory.

01:01:46 ►

And let’s say we could survey the English populace

01:01:49 ►

by reading letters to the editor in the various newspapers.

01:01:52 ►

And we find out there’s 30% for this, 35% for that, 25% for this.

01:01:56 ►

Is this research, is this worth the expense?

01:02:01 ►

Well, we don’t know where it’s going.

01:02:03 ►

We’re halfway through this.

01:02:05 ►

We don’t know what MI5 actually has in mind.

01:02:08 ►

It may be simply that they are studying…

01:02:12 ►

Overthrow the monarchy.

01:02:14 ►

We don’t know what they have in mind.

01:02:17 ►

That’s a good point.

01:02:18 ►

When Jacques Vallée, in his book, The Messengers of Deception,

01:02:29 ►

his book, The Messengers of Deception, he felt that there were forces at the highest levels of governments that actually were interested in destroying the credibility of scientific

01:02:38 ►

establishments. And that’s what this thing does. That’s its social consequence.

01:02:45 ►

The British government can cut science funding yet further, you mean?

01:02:47 ►

Well, who knows why?

01:02:49 ►

I mean, I don’t think our inability to second-guess MI5’s reasons for doing this

01:02:56 ►

means that they don’t have reasons for doing it.

01:02:59 ►

I mean, the deep-cover study of disinformation is not our field.

01:03:15 ►

Nor are we experts on propaganda, symbol manipulation, mass brainwashing, so forth and so on.

01:03:17 ►

This is not our field. If your prediction is correct, it’s going to be revealed as a hoax eventually.

01:03:21 ►

Or it will disappear.

01:03:22 ►

All the people who maintain it wasn’t a hoax, they’ll be discredited.

01:03:26 ►

So, unlike

01:03:27 ►

the top-down… Now that’s an interesting point.

01:03:30 ►

It is the Earth mystery, UFO

01:03:32 ►

and Telerik force people who are

01:03:34 ►

going to be discredited by the scientists.

01:03:36 ►

Thus, it’s not the military,

01:03:38 ►

it’s the British science establishment, led

01:03:40 ►

by John Maddox, who’s…

01:03:41 ►

It is from nature.

01:03:43 ►

Well, now, now think about

01:03:45 ►

the consequences of that for a moment.

01:03:48 ►

If this blows up

01:03:50 ►

and we flip on the BBC

01:03:52 ►

and see that, lo and behold,

01:03:56 ►

John Michel led his forces over a hill

01:04:01 ►

and surprised MI5 in the act,

01:04:06 ►

then that is like a body blow

01:04:09 ►

to a whole bunch of paranormal belief systems

01:04:13 ►

that have otherwise been flourishing furiously in England.

01:04:16 ►

It’s the postmodern equivalent of war.

01:04:18 ►

It’s the collapse of the Communist Party

01:04:21 ►

on an occult level in England.

01:04:23 ►

Those people would forfeit credibility

01:04:25 ►

for the rest of the millennium.

01:04:27 ►

That would put them all

01:04:29 ►

out of business.

01:04:34 ►

Now we understand

01:04:35 ►

what it is. It’s a trap.

01:04:38 ►

It’s a trap for

01:04:40 ►

gullible

01:04:43 ►

occultists, paranormalists and soft-headed

01:04:46 ►

types of all sort

01:04:48 ►

and they’re all going to be led into the trap

01:04:51 ►

announce the eminent

01:04:53 ►

approach of the Zenebel

01:04:54 ►

or the re-emergence

01:04:56 ►

of the forces that

01:04:58 ►

built New Grange

01:05:00 ►

and all this and then

01:05:02 ►

the government will say

01:05:03 ►

the government may simply announce,

01:05:06 ►

yes, we did it.

01:05:08 ►

Here’s how we did it.

01:05:10 ►

We’ll show you how we did it.

01:05:12 ►

We’re going to show you how the trick was done.

01:05:16 ►

And now, why don’t we get back to the business

01:05:18 ►

of being a rational and mature civilization

01:05:21 ►

and all you Merlinites,

01:05:24 ►

Telluricists,

01:05:26 ►

Ley-liners,

01:05:27 ►

Ouija boarders,

01:05:29 ►

channelers,

01:05:30 ►

and what have you,

01:05:31 ►

should seek honest work.

01:05:32 ►

Look at what fools you have made of yourselves.

01:05:36 ►

The incomplete military theory

01:05:38 ►

has become the complete military theory.

01:05:40 ►

I like it.

01:05:41 ►

I think we’ve got it, gentlemen.

01:05:43 ►

The Military-Military-Central-Scientific-Alliance-Complex theory. Yes. Well, I think we’ve got it. Scientific alliance complex theory.

01:05:46 ►

Well, I think… Pretty good,

01:05:48 ►

huh? I think that

01:05:49 ►

this is yet another version

01:05:52 ►

of the conspiracy theory. Well, let’s

01:05:54 ►

not get caught in this trap.

01:05:57 ►

However,

01:05:58 ►

I mean, leaving aside

01:06:00 ►

the fact that I very much

01:06:02 ►

doubt if Teleresis,

01:06:04 ►

Earth Mysteries, Lay Hunters

01:06:06 ►

Malinites and the rest of it in Britain constitute

01:06:09 ►

a significant threat to the social order that would be

01:06:12 ►

taken sufficiently seriously for anyone to mount

01:06:15 ►

a scheme of this kind. Leaving aside that objection

01:06:18 ►

my approach is in fact

01:06:21 ►

empirical. I have a plan

01:06:23 ►

the plan is to move beyond this stage of armchair speculation

01:06:28 ►

to actual empirical research.

01:06:31 ►

And the empirical research that I’m proposing,

01:06:33 ►

which I shall propose to the Centre for Crop Cycle Studies when I get back,

01:06:39 ►

is this.

01:06:40 ►

Next year, since the hoax theory is one of the theories

01:06:43 ►

that we have to take seriously and consider,

01:06:46 ►

next year the Centre for Crop Circle Studies sponsors a competition for the best hoax crop circles.

01:06:53 ►

We have a farmer on the committee who has offered his land for experimentation on this subject.

01:07:01 ►

People would be able to rent fields from him or other farmers to practice.

01:07:05 ►

There would be a small charge for that. The amount of damage in making one of these would

01:07:09 ►

be something like £100 worth of corn would be damaged. So for fees commensurate with

01:07:15 ►

the amount of damage, they could rent fields from farmers, him or other ones, to practice

01:07:20 ►

him. Then there would be the final competition. There’d be a particular night, each group

01:07:25 ►

that entered for this would be assigned a particular field. There’d be certain standard

01:07:30 ►

observation techniques applied to the field. They’d get marks for minimum detectability

01:07:37 ►

through infrared binoculars or other means. And in the morning morning the finished results would be seen and judges would go in who’d examine

01:07:48 ►

them using the criteria used in the case of normal crop cycles for trying to decide whether it’s a

01:07:53 ►

hoax or not an independent panel with judge which was the most ingenious design the most surprising

01:07:59 ►

that had got the most park marks for being done undetected, that was the most convincing.

01:08:11 ►

This would be an international competition.

01:08:14 ►

There’d be a prize of £10,000, let’s say, for the best crop cycle,

01:08:17 ►

which would be put up by the Guardian newspaper or the Daily Express,

01:08:21 ►

which would then have exclusive rights on the first publicity of the results,

01:08:27 ►

and then could be sold on to other… there’d be a tremendous media interest in this.

01:08:33 ►

And this competition would then force the evolution of the phenomenon.

01:08:37 ►

It would first of all show us what competent and well-motivated groups of hoaxers were capable of,

01:08:43 ►

which there’s been no demonstration of so far.

01:08:46 ►

Secondly, how long it took, how many people it took,

01:08:49 ►

what kind of apparatus they’d need,

01:08:53 ►

how you’d do it at night to try and escape detection.

01:08:57 ►

It would show the kind of imagination and schemes and plans and designs

01:09:02 ►

and how you execute an undercover of darkness,

01:09:04 ►

fairly complex designs in the field,

01:09:06 ►

coordinating different people.

01:09:09 ►

And it would force the evolution of the phenomenon

01:09:12 ►

because if the military or some other group of conspirators or hoaxers

01:09:16 ►

are in fact responsible for the phenomenon,

01:09:19 ►

this would then raise the standards against which they had to work.

01:09:23 ►

And whether it’s a natural phenomenon, a paranormal intelligence,

01:09:27 ►

or a military or other kind of hoax,

01:09:30 ►

the following year we would accelerate the evolution of the entire phenomenon.

01:09:36 ►

So this is my proposal as a positive step forward to testing the hoax theory,

01:09:41 ►

to gaining positive evidence and providing further amusement for the British public.

01:09:47 ►

Well, I want to go back to something you said.

01:09:50 ►

You said you didn’t think that this phenomenon was threatening

01:09:56 ►

or that the Tellurists and so forth were threatening the social order.

01:10:02 ►

But again, this book by Vallée,

01:10:05 ►

The Messengers of Deception, is very interesting.

01:10:09 ►

In the United States, over the past 20 years or so,

01:10:14 ►

up until about 1980,

01:10:17 ►

every poll that was done,

01:10:20 ►

every successive poll,

01:10:22 ►

showed that more and more people believed in the reality of UFOs.

01:10:29 ►

And it went from 15% to like 70%.

01:10:33 ►

Whatever real means, people would say, yes, I believe UFOs are real.

01:10:40 ►

And then the cattle mutilation phenomenon came along.

01:10:46 ►

And instead of the friendly space brothers bringing peace to all mankind,

01:10:53 ►

you get these forces which move in the night with scalpels removing the organs of animals.

01:11:00 ►

And this whole creepy aspect of it was brought in. Lo and behold, belief in UFOs, interest in UFOs,

01:11:09 ►

all of this stuff began to fall.

01:11:12 ►

Now, in fact, there is going on,

01:11:17 ►

and we are involved in an effort to subvert the social order.

01:11:22 ►

Your theory, my belief in the importance

01:11:26 ►

of psychedelic drugs,

01:11:28 ►

our general commitment

01:11:30 ►

to the idea that science…

01:11:33 ►

Our general commitment

01:11:35 ►

to the idea that science

01:11:37 ►

is inadequate to describing reality.

01:11:41 ►

And all of these…

01:11:42 ►

What it is, Rupert,

01:11:43 ►

is it’s a war between um pagan thought it’s an

01:11:50 ►

ideological war between pagan thought and straight people the church of england if you want to call

01:11:56 ►

it that and they are this is an incredibly clever way of dealing a tremendous setback to the forces of pagan thought.

01:12:07 ►

If this thing is exposed as a hoax, paganism, earth energy, to lurid stuff, lay life,

01:12:17 ►

all of this will be discredited in England for years to come.

01:12:21 ►

It will be a tremendous body blow to the anti-Christian forces in England.

01:12:27 ►

And tracking information and shifts in social attitudes toward orthodox morality and so forth and so on

01:12:37 ►

may have in fact triggered a decision on the part of the British government where they go to MI5 and say,

01:12:45 ►

look, we’re losing hold of society.

01:12:48 ►

People believe in the Sheldrake theory

01:12:51 ►

and they believe in the Telluric forces

01:12:53 ►

and the return of the elf armies

01:12:55 ►

and the rise of the fairy legions and all this stuff.

01:12:59 ►

Can’t you figure out some way

01:13:01 ►

to restore the power of orthodoxy?

01:13:05 ►

And they said, aha, we’ll build an enormous trap for these people. figure out some way to restore the power of orthodoxy?

01:13:09 ►

And they said, aha, we’ll build an enormous trap for these people. We’ll lure them so far out onto a branch,

01:13:13 ►

and then we’re going to cut it off.

01:13:16 ►

And that’s what’s happening.

01:13:18 ►

I think that this is the prediction that should be forwarded to the seriologist.

01:13:23 ►

You people are all going to be made fools of.

01:13:25 ►

Your gullibility has set you up to betray the real pagan renaissance.

01:13:33 ►

There’s no way to avoid this.

01:13:34 ►

Absolutely not, because first of all,

01:13:36 ►

the Center for Crop Circle Studies is not committed to,

01:13:39 ►

like the Society for Psychical Research,

01:13:41 ►

is not committed to saying these are done by Martians or anything.

01:13:45 ►

No, but this guy John Mischel

01:13:47 ►

is a pagan through and through.

01:13:48 ►

He’s the head of the pagan party in England.

01:13:52 ►

Yes, but he’s the editor of the Seriologist.

01:13:54 ►

That’s another one.

01:13:55 ►

And ruining him would be

01:13:58 ►

a tremendous blow to paganism.

01:14:00 ►

It’s like what would happen to the Third Reich

01:14:03 ►

if you blew up Hitler is what would happen to the Third Reich if you blew up Hitler

01:14:05 ►

is what will happen to paganism in England if you get rid of it.

01:14:08 ►

But the chances are that if anyone discovers it’s a hoax,

01:14:10 ►

it’s going to be the Center for Crop Circle Studies itself.

01:14:13 ►

Because this is the group that’s actually mounting field investigations.

01:14:16 ►

No, I suspect the government is going to announce it

01:14:19 ►

and say, we did it and show it and here’s how we did it

01:14:23 ►

and he will show it in front of you

01:14:25 ►

and send the media of the world to observe

01:14:28 ►

and we’ll make you crop circles

01:14:30 ►

from here to Canterbury and back again.

01:14:32 ►

But let us say that that doesn’t happen.

01:14:35 ►

What would convince you you were wrong?

01:14:37 ►

Film of it happening.

01:14:39 ►

Film of it happening.

01:14:40 ►

That wouldn’t convince you.

01:14:42 ►

Yes, it would.

01:14:43 ►

I’m not as hard as you think.

01:14:46 ►

But I just see that what’s

01:14:47 ►

happening, it’s not

01:14:49 ►

solid enough.

01:14:51 ►

There’s too much funny business.

01:14:54 ►

It doesn’t feel right.

01:14:56 ►

It feels like a bunch of

01:14:57 ►

well-meaning, gullible people

01:14:59 ►

are being coaxed deeper and

01:15:01 ►

deeper into delusion

01:15:03 ►

and they’re being set up for an enormous fall.

01:15:08 ►

And their political agenda will then be…

01:15:11 ►

Now, you always ask, why would they do it the other night?

01:15:14 ►

That was your challenge to me.

01:15:15 ►

Why would the British government do it?

01:15:17 ►

Here’s why.

01:15:19 ►

To set back paganism, to preserve orthodoxy,

01:15:23 ►

to save England from the flakes.

01:15:26 ►

They can protect themselves from this trap

01:15:28 ►

by simply saying and

01:15:29 ►

repeating on a monthly basis

01:15:31 ►

in the seriologists that yes

01:15:33 ►

we think it may be a hoax.

01:15:36 ►

No, they should say

01:15:37 ►

the most likely explanation

01:15:39 ►

is a hoax. And we’re out there

01:15:41 ►

searching to discover it.

01:15:43 ►

The point is the Center for Crop Circle

01:15:46 ►

Studies does say that.

01:15:49 ►

That it may be a hoax.

01:15:50 ►

Well, but I’ve read the seriologist

01:15:52 ►

and it’s

01:15:53 ►

by no means what you would

01:15:56 ►

call an organ of rationalism

01:15:58 ►

or of rational

01:16:00 ►

discourse. It’s a clearing

01:16:02 ►

house for every screwball

01:16:03 ►

theory ever to come down the pike

01:16:06 ►

theory is one of them this is just another theory they print it in the seriologist if you submit

01:16:15 ►

this they’ll print it they print any theory they regard the theories as interesting as the

01:16:20 ►

phenomenon itself well i i haven’t I’ve been puzzled. I’ve

01:16:25 ►

been under pressure of this

01:16:28 ►

dialogue. I’ve perfected

01:16:30 ►

this theory. I confess up until

01:16:31 ►

this week, I was a fence

01:16:34 ►

sitter. And I desperately

01:16:36 ►

like you, I assume,

01:16:37 ►

and you, wanted to believe

01:16:40 ►

that from

01:16:42 ►

the far future, from beneath

01:16:44 ►

the earth, from somewhere that would rock our worldview,

01:16:48 ►

someone was reaching out.

01:16:52 ►

You want a whole village to see the UFO from down there.

01:16:54 ►

I don’t think so.

01:16:56 ►

I would not get near it now.

01:16:58 ►

I’ve seen through it.

01:16:59 ►

This does it for me.

01:17:04 ►

Well, I still think that the best way forward

01:17:08 ►

is this experimental approach to the hoax theory that I’m proposing.

01:17:11 ►

I think that’s very good.

01:17:13 ►

The best thing that can be done in this circumstance

01:17:15 ►

is it doesn’t commit one one way or the other.

01:17:18 ►

It does shed further information on just how hoaxes could or might do it.

01:17:21 ►

It’s excellent. It escapes the trap, you see.

01:17:23 ►

It gives credibility to the gullible.

01:17:25 ►

You should lead them out of the trap

01:17:28 ►

before it’s too late.

01:17:30 ►

This is what I intend to try and get

01:17:31 ►

the Centre for Crop-Circle Studies

01:17:33 ►

to mount next year.

01:17:36 ►

This, I think, would enable them

01:17:38 ►

to maintain a position.

01:17:40 ►

My position, and that’s the position

01:17:42 ►

of others in this organisation,

01:17:43 ►

is that here’s an amazing phenomenon, whatever they call it

01:17:46 ►

there’s many theories, whatever they call it, it needs to be investigated

01:17:49 ►

now, you see the position of people who are against this

01:17:53 ►

is to say here’s an amazing thing that appears in papers

01:17:56 ►

we shouldn’t investigate it, we should pay no attention

01:17:59 ►

we should leave it just to the journalists

01:18:00 ►

we shouldn’t attempt to find out how it’s happening

01:18:03 ►

we shouldn’t wait at night to try it with video cameras to see how it happens. That seems to me a

01:18:07 ►

very peculiar position. It seems to me the position of the investigators of this phenomenon

01:18:12 ►

is far more scientific and rational than the position of those who say, we already know

01:18:18 ►

the answer, there’s no point whatever in attempting to see what’s happening or paying

01:18:22 ►

any attention, just leave it to the media.

01:18:29 ►

So I think that this is the only rational position to adopt,

01:18:32 ►

namely to treat it as a natural historical phenomenon,

01:18:35 ►

or at least a phenomenon, let’s just say a phenomenon, to investigate it empirically.

01:18:38 ►

I think this is Baconian science.

01:18:41 ►

Yes, well, this is what I called for, Occam’s raising.

01:18:44 ►

The hypotheses should not be multiplied unless there’s a necessity to do so.

01:18:50 ►

I can assure you that there’s hundreds of hypotheses of which yours is one.

01:18:53 ►

You’ve just multiplied the hypotheses this evening.

01:18:56 ►

Well, but I handled all of the facts in three-dimensional space,

01:19:02 ►

in political space, in rational space,

01:19:07 ►

and managed to tie it up all very neatly without violating physics

01:19:11 ►

or calling on other dimensions or hypothesizing strange forms of energy

01:19:18 ►

or any of the violations of ordinary…

01:19:24 ►

It’s not a strange form

01:19:25 ►

of conspiracy. It’s orthodoxy

01:19:27 ►

fighting back with the weapons at its

01:19:29 ►

disposal. What’s new about

01:19:32 ►

that?

01:19:34 ►

It gives them a great

01:19:36 ►

credit of intelligence,

01:19:37 ►

which may not be justified.

01:19:39 ►

Yes, I found the most weakest part is that

01:19:41 ►

I’ve seen no evidence either that

01:19:43 ►

orthodoxy is as coherent as you assume,

01:19:46 ►

or that it’s as intelligent as you assume, or that it has the kind of humor, imagination, and flexibility that you assume.

01:19:54 ►

Most orthodoxy is run by committees.

01:19:56 ►

This is a phenomenon that couldn’t be run bywashing, disinformation programs,

01:20:08 ►

manipulation of mass perception of reality.

01:20:11 ►

And these are the specialties of governments and intelligence agencies.

01:20:16 ►

Not your specialty. Their specialty.

01:20:18 ►

Well, let’s say that this is an excellent theory,

01:20:20 ►

and it’s not appropriate really to give probability

01:20:25 ►

to it at this time.

01:20:28 ►

I think Rupert’s plan for a research project

01:20:30 ►

is very exciting

01:20:31 ►

and the idea of publishing

01:20:34 ►

the trap theory in the seriologist

01:20:35 ►

I think is an excellent plan. It wouldn’t take

01:20:38 ►

long to write this up as a letter to John

01:20:39 ►

Michel.

01:20:41 ►

A possible supplement to the

01:20:44 ►

research program for grassroots science

01:20:46 ►

would be to do some survey research of the British population

01:20:50 ►

before and after the competition

01:20:52 ►

and see, as a matter of fact,

01:20:54 ►

what effect the competition has on the credibility or gullibility of that.

01:21:00 ►

Well, even ahead of that,

01:21:01 ►

it’s probably already been looked at,

01:21:04 ►

Well, even ahead of that, it’s probably already been looked at,

01:21:10 ►

the rate at which pagan ideas are spreading in England,

01:21:14 ►

what percentage of the population ten years ago… Are these fairies?

01:21:14 ►

Not fairies. That’s a general folk belief in England.

01:21:18 ►

Not really a fair test.

01:21:21 ►

But the abandonment of orthodox Christianity

01:21:25 ►

for the new age,

01:21:28 ►

for new

01:21:29 ►

metaphysical positions,

01:21:32 ►

channeling,

01:21:34 ►

so forth and so on, it is on the

01:21:36 ►

rise, is it not?

01:21:37 ►

Isn’t Glastonbury the center

01:21:40 ►

of all this, and it’s spreading and

01:21:42 ►

spreading?

01:21:43 ►

If you’re a straight person in England,

01:21:48 ►

you must view this with considerable alarm.

01:21:50 ►

I don’t think that straight people in England

01:21:53 ►

view that with a great deal of alarm.

01:21:56 ►

I think they’re more alarmed by cocaine,

01:21:59 ►

crime in the inner cities and that kind of thing.

01:22:02 ►

I don’t think that New Age phenomena

01:22:04 ►

are particularly alarming in Britain.

01:22:06 ►

There’s a long tradition in Britain of interest in these kinds of things.

01:22:10 ►

Prince Charles is an establishment representative of this particular point of view.

01:22:17 ►

Well, in this country it’s quite the other case.

01:22:21 ►

Religious fundamentalists have for years been denouncing the New

01:22:26 ►

Age as

01:22:27 ►

Satan’s legions

01:22:29 ►

expanding their

01:22:31 ►

base. The popularity of

01:22:34 ►

goddess workshops at the

01:22:35 ►

Omega Foundation and here

01:22:37 ►

at Essendon is on the

01:22:40 ►

increase and I don’t think that’s

01:22:42 ►

created a great wave of paranoia

01:22:44 ►

in government or the military

01:22:45 ►

that would be far fetched in the

01:22:47 ►

United States

01:22:48 ►

England is a more

01:22:51 ►

pagan country it’s more

01:22:53 ►

delicately balanced than the

01:22:55 ►

United States and these matters

01:22:57 ►

opposition

01:22:58 ►

that is more agreeable to people

01:23:01 ►

there

01:23:02 ►

and also there’s not a sharp polarization.

01:23:06 ►

And if you take the Church of England, I mean, after all…

01:23:09 ►

There’s not a sharp polarization between Christians and paganism?

01:23:14 ►

No.

01:23:16 ►

Well, I speak as one myself.

01:23:18 ►

I mean, I’m a communicating Anglican,

01:23:21 ►

a loyal member of my parish congregation.

01:23:25 ►

Well, so when they started burning pagans at the stake, where will you stand?

01:23:30 ►

I shall, my position is one of Christian animism.

01:23:34 ►

I believe that the true base of Christianity is to be rooted in the land.

01:23:39 ►

I think that the actual position of many Anglicans in Britain

01:23:46 ►

is to appreciate the sanctity of the sacred places,

01:23:50 ►

like the cathedrals, the churches, and so on.

01:23:53 ►

The revival of Marian religion is fairly well established.

01:23:59 ►

Pilgrimage is on the increase.

01:24:02 ►

The idea that sacred places have ancient roots in the land and that Christian

01:24:07 ►

cathedrals and churches are built on ancient pagan sacred sites appeals to many Anglicans.

01:24:13 ►

They don’t dismiss this. I try these ideas out on vicars and members of congregations.

01:24:18 ►

Most of them really like them. I’ve never encountered any opposition to this approach

01:24:23 ►

in my conversations quite widely.

01:24:26 ►

Well, the reason those churches were built on those pagan sites was not an appreciation of telluric energy.

01:24:34 ►

It was to appropriate those sites and utterly obliterate the pagan temples that were there.

01:24:43 ►

It was, in in fact a program

01:24:45 ►

of ideological genocide

01:24:47 ►

that was carried out

01:24:49 ►

well you can look at it that way

01:24:50 ►

but that’s the way you can look at it

01:24:52 ►

I’m sure that’s how the pagans looked at it

01:24:54 ►

I think that the way that the

01:24:56 ►

when in the Celtic church

01:24:59 ►

in Britain

01:25:00 ►

the pagans willingly accepted

01:25:03 ►

Christianity as they did in many cases in Ireland

01:25:05 ►

and in Iona and places

01:25:07 ►

they did so partly because they

01:25:09 ►

assimilated it to their world view

01:25:11 ►

and they were able to assimilate it

01:25:14 ►

by including Christian shrines

01:25:16 ►

in their sacred sites

01:25:17 ►

so you could say that

01:25:19 ►

what’s happened in

01:25:21 ►

that you could look

01:25:24 ►

at it from both points of view.

01:25:25 ►

One, an incorporation of Christianity into a pagan system,

01:25:28 ►

and the other way, the incorporation of a pagan system into Christianity.

01:25:33 ►

But both are true, and both these attitudes coexist,

01:25:36 ►

and it’s by no means the simple idea of total obliteration by conquering it.

01:25:41 ►

The power of the…

01:25:42 ►

I think if you had been there,

01:25:44 ►

I mean, I don’t know

01:25:46 ►

that much about the coming of Christianity

01:25:48 ►

to the British Isles, but

01:25:49 ►

where I do know something about

01:25:52 ►

it, it was always a bloody

01:25:54 ►

nightmare, such as in Mexico

01:25:56 ►

or South America.

01:25:58 ►

I just, this cheerful story

01:26:00 ►

of how these happy pagans

01:26:02 ►

I think we’re rambling too much here.

01:26:05 ►

And maybe we could bring it back to corn circles,

01:26:09 ►

or in the trap theory,

01:26:11 ►

we could say the church is more on the pagan side, actually,

01:26:15 ►

than on the side of science and the military.

01:26:17 ►

Certainly.

01:26:18 ►

I’ve never…

01:26:19 ►

You know, I go to church every Sunday.

01:26:21 ►

I’ve had lots of sermons.

01:26:22 ►

I read things about religious columns and newspapers and that kind of thing.

01:26:26 ►

I’ve never heard any denunciation

01:26:28 ►

of crop circles from

01:26:29 ►

any credible Christian.

01:26:32 ►

No, but denunciations

01:26:33 ►

of paganism. I’ve heard

01:26:36 ►

almost none of those.

01:26:38 ►

The entire history of

01:26:40 ►

Western civilization is a

01:26:42 ►

frantic effort to stamp

01:26:44 ►

out paganism.

01:26:45 ►

It’s taken them 2,000 years, and they’re still at it,

01:26:50 ►

still invading against witchcraft, sorcery, scrying, all of these things.

01:26:57 ►

I mean, this cheerful story you tell about this land of happy men is nonsense.

01:27:04 ►

We’re talking about the fate of Western civilization.

01:27:07 ►

And if you don’t think people will defend their vision of it

01:27:11 ►

with disinformation programs, propaganda, lying, trickery, and manipulation,

01:27:17 ►

and if that doesn’t work canon,

01:27:20 ►

then you just haven’t read Western history.

01:27:24 ►

I don’t think the Church is involved in the conspiracy if there is one.

01:27:27 ►

I think orthodoxy is defending itself against unorthodox forces.

01:27:33 ►

It doesn’t have to do with church.

01:27:35 ►

Yes, I mean, 2% of the population…

01:27:37 ►

Time to fight back, I dare say.

01:27:40 ►

It’s very, very unlikely that orthodoxy in Britain

01:27:44 ►

is any longer identified

01:27:45 ►

with the official Christian point

01:27:48 ►

of view. Secondly,

01:27:49 ►

I don’t think orthodoxy in Britain, as

01:27:51 ►

represented by the Conservative government,

01:27:53 ►

has any axe to grind for scientific

01:27:56 ►

orthodoxy. They’ve

01:27:57 ►

done more to set back the cause of

01:27:59 ►

science in Britain than any government in history.

01:28:02 ►

They’ve cut funding, they’ve demoralised

01:28:04 ►

scientific institutions.

01:28:06 ►

The Thatcher government has closed down lab after lab.

01:28:11 ►

The scientific community in Britain, almost to a man,

01:28:15 ►

is anti-government to the depth of their being

01:28:18 ►

because never before has the scientific community been so demoralised and humiliated.

01:28:22 ►

Well, then ready to lash out by any means necessary.

01:28:27 ►

Time for wild schemes.

01:28:29 ►

If they’re that demoralized, if their backs are that much to the wall,

01:28:34 ►

then it seems the absolute precondition for them to undertake an operation like this.

01:28:40 ►

There’s no conspiracy between the church and the military.

01:28:43 ►

I’m not claiming that. Or between the scientific community the military. I’m not claiming that.

01:28:45 ►

Or between the scientific community.

01:28:47 ►

I’m not claiming that.

01:28:48 ►

I’m claiming that orthodoxy is defending itself against magic.

01:28:53 ►

It’s a war between reason and magic.

01:28:55 ►

And you can talk about whether the Thatcherites are on one side or the other

01:28:59 ►

or where does the Church of England come down.

01:29:01 ►

It’s a desperate struggle between rational orthodoxy and magic.

01:29:09 ►

And magic is being led into a trap.

01:29:12 ►

These assertions should probably be posed as questions

01:29:15 ►

for grassroots social science research.

01:29:21 ►

Questionnaires.

01:29:22 ►

Clergymen could be asked

01:29:23 ►

for their attitudes in clever ways about different things

01:29:26 ►

well I think you need to ask the whole population of England

01:29:30 ►

and see to what degree is loyalty being transferred

01:29:34 ►

from reason to the occult

01:29:38 ►

and what does reason think about that

01:29:41 ►

and what does the occult think about that

01:29:44 ►

that’s an important question

01:29:45 ►

that could be approached by survey sample research.

01:29:49 ►

And that would sort of give us an idea how we’re doing.

01:29:53 ►

And I’m not sure if there have been any such survey

01:29:55 ►

in Britain or in the United States on these questions.

01:29:58 ►

We speculate about them in all our talks,

01:30:02 ►

and there’s been no objective measures.

01:30:05 ►

This is a very good grassroots project.

01:30:07 ►

Simple to do.

01:30:09 ►

Yes.

01:30:10 ►

So why don’t we let it lie at that?

01:30:13 ►

Yes.

01:30:14 ►

Good.

01:30:15 ►

Good. You’re listening to the Psychedelic Salon, where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.

01:30:31 ►

Well, that was what Rupert, Ralph and Terence thought about crop circles back in 1991.

01:30:37 ►

And I thought it was telling that at one point Terence said he thought the phenomena would eventually be exposed as a government information study.

01:30:47 ►

However, 16 years have gone by since he made that statement,

01:30:51 ►

and if anything, the picture is even less clear today than it was back in 1991.

01:30:56 ►

While I applaud Terence for refusing to believe that crop circles are created by non-human energies until he sees one being made,

01:31:04 ►

crop circles are created by non-human energies until he sees one being made,

01:31:09 ►

I wonder how he would react today to the news that at least some of the crop circles that have been seen in the past ten years or so have essentially, how shall I say it,

01:31:14 ►

laid down in a matter of moments.

01:31:17 ►

There are a number of cases where this has been documented,

01:31:20 ►

but the one that hit me most forcefully was the circle that appeared in under an hour’s time and in full daylight.

01:31:27 ►

I can’t remember which crop circle video had this clip on it,

01:31:30 ►

but a commercial pilot who took tourists for rides out to see Stonehenge by air

01:31:35 ►

showed some footage of a circle that appeared during the time that it took him to return to the airport,

01:31:42 ►

refuel, and pick up another load of tourists.

01:31:46 ►

On the return flight, and not far from Stonehenge,

01:31:50 ►

and directly on the flight path that he had just completed,

01:31:53 ►

suddenly there was a big crop circle.

01:31:56 ►

It had simply appeared in a very short time and in full daylight.

01:32:00 ►

Now, I don’t mean to diss Terrence here, But after all, he’s the one who once said

01:32:05 ►

The problem is how do we know an alien intelligence when we encounter it

01:32:10 ►

Because after all, it is alien

01:32:13 ►

Now maybe he had that thought later on

01:32:16 ►

I really don’t know

01:32:17 ►

But it is at least something to consider, don’t you think?

01:32:22 ►

Communicating with an alien species is a tougher problem than

01:32:25 ►

you might think until you work on it a bit. If you’ve ever tried to train an animal, you know

01:32:30 ►

what I mean. You can talk and talk and talk, and your dog will just sit there looking at you,

01:32:36 ►

seeming to understand every word you’re saying, yet we know that they don’t have a clue what all

01:32:42 ►

those funny little mouth noises we’re making are all about.

01:32:46 ►

And so they tilt their head and give you this quizzical look,

01:32:49 ►

kind of like the way we must tilt our heads and look at crop circles, if you think about it.

01:32:55 ►

So maybe someone or something, whether you call it Gaia or think of it as an extra-dimensional entity,

01:33:03 ►

may have opened a communications channel and is actually sending information.

01:33:07 ►

Not noise, as Terence suggested, but real information that we haven’t yet been able to decode.

01:33:14 ►

Which boils down to Ralph’s approach of keeping our minds open

01:33:18 ►

until there is a clear, agreed-upon understanding of the phenomena.

01:33:23 ►

Now that I’ve seen a half dozen or so films about crop circles

01:33:27 ►

and read a few books as well,

01:33:29 ►

I’m no closer to forming a solid opinion about them than I was when I began.

01:33:34 ►

And unless I ever have the opportunity to walk in several crop circles myself,

01:33:40 ►

I don’t expect to come to any final conclusions.

01:33:43 ►

But for what it’s worth, I’ll at least give you my working hypothesis about crop circles.

01:33:49 ►

And while this is meant to be tongue-in-cheek,

01:33:51 ►

the way it resonates with those I tell it to

01:33:54 ►

makes me think that maybe there actually is something to this crackpot idea.

01:33:59 ►

Here it is.

01:34:00 ►

If you’ve ever been to one of the large cities in the U.S.,

01:34:04 ►

you’ve probably seen graffiti painted all over the place, particularly in areas where youth gangs are active.

01:34:11 ►

And there you’ll see young men, primarily young men with paint cans in their hands, running around tagging any available space with their gang symbol.

01:34:21 ►

Now, stretch your mind a bit and try to imagine the same type of behavior on the part

01:34:26 ►

of beings that exist in other dimensions. Once you’re with me on this, you can see that it’s

01:34:32 ►

no stretch to imagine young beings in higher dimensions who are still not very civilized for

01:34:38 ►

their level, and so they sneak back down to this dimension and tag parts of the land that their young spirits claim.

01:34:46 ►

So there it is. Lorenzo’s theory of crop circles is that they’re nothing more than the graffiti tags of adolescent ghosts.

01:34:56 ►

Well, it’s not much to go on, I admit. But hey, I’m just the carnival barker here.

01:35:00 ►

If you want to see the real action, just take a look in the big tent we call the Internet, and there you can find some excellent sites that deal with the crop circle phenomena, and where you can also follow up on the project that Rupert proposed among many more current topics.

01:35:45 ►

Thank you. our own notes from the Psychedelic Salon, which you can find at psychedelicsalon.org.

01:35:52 ►

And there you will find a wide range of comments that are posted under the various podcast program notes,

01:35:54 ►

as well as other posts from fellow salonners.

01:36:00 ►

And then there is also the Psychedelic Salon forum over on thegrowreport.com, where you will find items like the question Dutch Boy posed,

01:36:04 ►

asking where to find more biographical information about Terrence McKenna.

01:36:09 ►

One of the people who answered that question, by the way, was Max Freakout,

01:36:14 ►

the host of Psychonautica, a podcast that you can find over on the Cannabis Podcast Network at dopefiend.co.uk.

01:36:22 ►

In fact, that is also where you can find

01:36:25 ►

Bebe’s Bungalow, hosted from down under

01:36:27 ►

by Black Beauty, whose lovely voice

01:36:29 ►

you heard right after today’s trialogue.

01:36:32 ►

While I’m at it, I guess I should also mention

01:36:35 ►

Lefty’s Lounge, The Girl Report,

01:36:37 ►

and the Cornerstone podcast,

01:36:39 ►

The Dopecast by The Dopefiend,

01:36:41 ►

coming to us from the UK.

01:36:43 ►

And in case you haven’t heard of Dopecast yet, just start with his most recent one.

01:36:48 ►

I just listened to number 108 yesterday, and once again, I’m impressed with the quality of the information

01:36:54 ►

and the level-headedness of the host who goes by the handle Dope Fiend.

01:36:59 ►

And if you’re a parent that is looking for some drug information you can trust for your teenager,

01:37:05 ►

I highly recommend the Dope Fiends podcast.

01:37:08 ►

And my guess is that your kids will not only get a lot of good information from them,

01:37:12 ►

they’re also going to thank you for treating them like adults

01:37:16 ►

and putting them in touch with the truth about cannabis.

01:37:19 ►

Because they already know that the schools that they’re going to aren’t teaching them the truth.

01:37:24 ►

They know that from their peers.

01:37:26 ►

You know, it’s an interesting and fun podcast that I think you’ll find quite compelling.

01:37:30 ►

So you might want to check it out for yourself.

01:37:33 ►

And now they’ve added several other podcasts to their lineup over at dopefiend.co.uk.

01:37:38 ►

And unless I miss my guess, you’re going to find more than one podcast over there to interest you.

01:37:44 ►

And hey, Lefty, I hope you’re feeling better these days, my friend.

01:37:48 ►

And I don’t want to forget KMO’s podcast from the Sea Realm,

01:37:52 ►

which you can find via kmo.livejournal.com.

01:37:56 ►

If I’m not mistaken, I think KMO is conducting

01:38:00 ►

an interview today with our friend Matt Palomary

01:38:03 ►

for one of KMO’s upcoming podcasts. Thank you. has a new book out that I’ll be talking about in a future podcast myself.

01:38:29 ►

It’s a memoir, and I’m here to tell you that it reads like a page-turning novel.

01:38:34 ►

Right now, I don’t want to say anything more about it until after KMO Podcasts’ interview,

01:38:37 ►

and I’m sure that’s going to be quite interesting.

01:38:43 ►

And speaking of interesting, I was out of town for a while over the recent holidays,

01:38:47 ►

and after I returned home, it took me a bit to get back up to speed.

01:39:11 ►

And while I still haven’t actually caught up with all of the posts on our forum over at the Grow Report, all I can say is, wow, activity there has really picked up these past few weeks. For example, topics like Don’t Depotentiate the Psychedelic and Best Terrence McKenna Podcast for a Newcomer have already gathered between 40 and 90 replies.

01:39:17 ►

And a lot of it’s not only great information, much of it is also new to me as well.

01:39:26 ►

So if you want to keep up with some of the latest buzz on the street about the psychedelic community, you might want to take a look at the wide range of forums over there.

01:39:30 ►

Besides the salon, KMO has a forum there,

01:39:33 ►

as do all of the podcasts from dopefiend.co.uk.

01:39:36 ►

And for the medical marijuana growing community,

01:39:41 ►

the growreport.com should probably be one of your first stops if you want to learn more of the best ways to tend to your crops.

01:39:45 ►

I doubt if you’re going to find any better advice than you can get for free from Zandor and Mrs.

01:39:51 ►

Zandor and their podcasts and on their forums. We all owe a great big thank you to the two of them

01:39:57 ►

for all they do for our community. So on behalf of our fellow salonners, thanks again for all you do,

01:40:03 ►

Zandor and Mrs. Z. The world is a much

01:40:05 ►

better place for having you here. And while I’m talking about the Girl Reports forums, I

01:40:11 ►

particularly want to mention the thread on our salons forum that’s titled A Thread of High Art,

01:40:18 ►

where you can find some of the art created by our fellow salonners. There are images posted there,

01:40:24 ►

as well as many links to other sites where their work is posted.

01:40:28 ►

I’m really happy to see this thread get started

01:40:30 ►

so we can all share in the wonderful creative energy of this community.

01:40:35 ►

Before I go, there are two other brief announcements I should make,

01:40:40 ►

and that is for those of you who have signed up for the Palenque Norte mailing list

01:40:44 ►

or the Matrix Masters mailing list, or tried to link to the salon as a MySpace friend, well, I’m sorry to have to say that the mailing lists and our MySpace account are all inactive now.

01:40:59 ►

As you know, MySpace simply deleted our account a few months back, and I’m not willing to waste my time arguing with them and setting it up again.

01:41:07 ►

And as for the mailing lists, they kind of went by the board when I started podcasting back in 2005.

01:41:14 ►

My thought was that rather than clog your email inbox with more stuff to read,

01:41:20 ►

I’d just limit my communications to these podcasts and our blog and to the Psychedelic Salon forum.

01:41:27 ►

So if you’ve been wondering why your subscription never resulted in a newsletter showing up, well, now you know why.

01:41:34 ►

Hopefully you won’t be too disappointed.

01:41:37 ►

Other than that, I should mention that this and all of the podcasts from the Psychedelic Salon are protected under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial ShareAlike 3.0 license.

01:41:49 ►

And if you have any questions about that, just click the Creative Commons link at the bottom of the Psychedelic Salon webpage.

01:41:56 ►

Well, thanks for being here with us again today.

01:41:58 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

01:42:04 ►

Be well, my friends.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

125 - Trialogue_ Crop Circles

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Program Notes

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