Program Notes
https://www.patreon.com/lorenzohagerty
Guest speakers: Rose Kiseato & Shonagh Home
Today’s podcast features a conversation between Shonagh Home and Rose Kiseato Shepherd Davis, who is a Navajo-Hopi water woman of the Native American Church of North America. She is from the tobacco clan and is a 5th generation grandmother in her maternal line. Rose is an accomplished artisan bead-worker who teaches classes on this ancient craft. She is recognized both by her tribe and by the Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers, and many people consider her to be their spiritual mother and grandmother. She has been participating in the peyote ceremony for over 25 years, and she lives on the Navajo Reservation in Sanders, AZ.
Cannabis Nurses Magazine
Shonagh Home is a teacher, shamanic practitioner, and the author of
‘Ix Chel Wisdom: 7 Teachings from the Mayan Sacred Feminine,’
and the upcoming, ‘Honeybee Wisdom: A Modern Melissae Speaks.’
Website: www.shonaghhome.com
Contact: shonagh.home (at) comcast (dot) net
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492 - The Dizziness of Things Unsaid
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494 - The Alchemical Angel Will Not Die
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space.
00:00:19 ►
This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:23 ►
Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:28 ►
And today we’re going to listen in on a conversation between Shauna Holm and Rose Kiyosoto Shepard Davis, who is a
00:00:32 ►
Navajo Hopi water woman of the Native American Church of North America.
00:00:37 ►
And they’ll be talking about peyote, which
00:00:40 ►
is actually a first for us here in the salon.
00:00:43 ►
In the past, I’ve focused these talks primarily on plants and chemicals that I’ve experienced with myself.
00:00:50 ►
However, it may surprise some of our fellow salonners to learn that peyote is a plant with which I have no experience of my own.
00:00:57 ►
Although I have had several opportunities to participate in peyote ceremonies, I’ve always passed them up.
00:01:04 ►
to participate in peyote ceremonies, I’ve always passed them up.
00:01:10 ►
One reason is that, as you know, it takes many years for a peyote plant to mature to the point where it may be used in a ceremony.
00:01:14 ►
And in some places, such as Texas, it’s now listed as an endangered species due to over-harvesting.
00:01:21 ►
So one of the reasons that I’ve always passed on an opportunity to experience a
00:01:25 ►
peyote ceremony is that, well, it just doesn’t seem proper for someone such as myself, who is
00:01:31 ►
Caucasian and descended from northern European stock, to use some of the precious medicine that
00:01:37 ►
is so central to some Native American spiritual practices. And that’s how I have explained myself
00:01:43 ►
to friends who have invited me to a ceremony.
00:01:46 ►
But there’s another reason as well, and I want to be honest about it right here.
00:01:51 ►
The reason is that, well, I’ve never been able to deal with extreme heat,
00:01:55 ►
such as what may be encountered in a traditional peyote ceremony.
00:01:59 ►
I can paint that with all kinds of talk about physical problems that I experience in intense heat,
00:02:06 ►
but let’s just say that I’m basically a coward.
00:02:09 ►
I know what deep psychedelic experiences are like,
00:02:12 ►
and for me, having one while in a hot teepee is just something that I’ve decided to pass on.
00:02:19 ►
Now, I’m not judging anyone else here, and in truth, I’ve spoken with quite a few people
00:02:23 ►
who have had amazing and richly rewarding experiences with peyote. Thank you. this has been a sacred plant for many generations. But today I’m very pleased to be able to play a
00:02:46 ►
recording of a recent conversation that Shauna Holm had with Grandma Rose, who is a Navajo Hopi
00:02:52 ►
water woman of the Native American Church of North America. And it is the first original recording
00:02:58 ►
that I’ve been able to play in which peyote is discussed by someone who comes from a very long tradition of using it.
00:03:05 ►
And so now, let’s join Shauna and Rose and learn a little bit more about this interesting plant.
00:03:13 ►
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another podcast discussion for the Psychedelic Salon. My name is Shauna Holm, and today I have the pleasure of sitting across from Rose Kisiato
00:03:30 ►
Shepard Davis.
00:03:32 ►
And Rose is a Navajo Hopi water woman of the Native American Church of North America.
00:03:39 ►
She is a master bead worker, and she is a fifth generation great grandmother in her maternal
00:03:46 ►
line. She has been participating in the peyote ceremony for over 25 years, and she lives
00:03:53 ►
on the Navajo Reservation in Sanders, Arizona. And today we’re going to have a conversation about your life, Rose, and your experience with the peyote and how you found your way to it.
00:04:11 ►
And I would be grateful for you to share whatever wisdom you are willing to share with our listeners.
00:04:19 ►
And so I’d love for you to just first start, begin by, if you could give us a little history of
00:04:26 ►
where you were born and where you grew up and we’ll take it from there.
00:04:34 ►
Where I was born, I was born in a place called T-Cito area. That’s where my name comes from, too, on my grandfather’s side.
00:04:49 ►
So my father spoke English,
00:04:55 ►
so he knows that I was born on August 18, 1947.
00:05:03 ►
But my census roll tells me I was born on August 11, 1947. But my census roll tells me I was born on August 11, 1947. So I used
00:05:12 ►
the 11 for records. But on the other hand, 18, I celebrate my birthday. And my mom didn’t
00:05:23 ►
speak English, so she just says, you were born when the corns
00:05:27 ►
and the watermelons were ripe. And I still go to that place where I was born. And I look
00:05:38 ►
at the area where the hogan used to be.
00:05:42 ►
The what is that?
00:05:43 ►
The hogan.
00:05:44 ►
The hogan used to be the what is that the hogan the hogan and so i know that i was born
00:05:48 ►
there and my my my my cord is still there to where they put it they buried your umbilical
00:05:59 ►
cord there ah yes and and what is the hogan? And it’s still, you know, just the remaining of it is still there.
00:06:11 ►
It’s in the Atisiyato area.
00:06:14 ►
Okay, so the hogan is an actual area.
00:06:17 ►
Yeah, it’s a place, it’s a home that they had in those days.
00:06:23 ►
They still have them.
00:06:26 ►
They use it for ceremonial purpose or just to live in it
00:06:29 ►
or just to have it, this hogan that we talk about.
00:06:35 ►
And so your umbilical cord is buried there,
00:06:38 ►
so that gives you, almost like us, I would think,
00:06:41 ►
a very spiritual bond to the land itself
00:06:45 ►
so many years ago I was in Los Angeles and I had this feeling you know I don’t know what it was at
00:06:54 ►
that time but it calls you back so I went back and then after that I didn’t get any more calling.
00:07:11 ►
So it does call you back if you know where it’s at, your cord.
00:07:15 ►
And so you visited the place where your cord was buried?
00:07:15 ►
Yeah.
00:07:20 ►
And is that a place that your mother selected specifically? Well, we’re not there anymore due to the relocation
00:07:25 ►
that the government put on us.
00:07:29 ►
So there’s a few people that are still out there,
00:07:34 ►
but that’s the reason why I live in Sanders,
00:07:39 ►
due to the relocation from the government from 1960, 70, 80.
00:07:47 ►
They, what, forcibly removed you from your home?
00:07:52 ►
From the Hopi land.
00:07:53 ►
From Hopi land.
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Really?
00:07:55 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:07:57 ►
So Sanders got, like, maybe 13 communities.
00:08:03 ►
They all live in different areas.
00:08:05 ►
They’re all the relocatings.
00:08:08 ►
And so everyone’s kind of scattered about.
00:08:11 ►
In Sanders, you know, area here and there.
00:08:13 ►
Right, right.
00:08:15 ►
But I’ve been only there less than 10 years.
00:08:19 ►
And before that you were?
00:08:21 ►
I was living in Wheatfield, Arizona.
00:08:23 ►
Okay.
00:08:21 ►
Before that, you were?
00:08:23 ►
I was living in Wheatfield, Arizona.
00:08:24 ►
Okay.
00:08:30 ►
And I was there for close to maybe even 20 years until my late husband passed and I moved there.
00:08:35 ►
I moved away from there.
00:08:37 ►
Okay.
00:08:38 ►
I have a question.
00:08:39 ►
So when the government forced all of you off of your lands,
00:08:46 ►
what was the reason?
00:08:56 ►
Due to a paper that was signed back in the 1800s between the Hopis and the government saying that this place was theirs.
00:09:03 ►
Who was saying that that place was the Hopi? We were as neighbors until the government came in.
00:09:10 ►
Some of them weren’t forced.
00:09:12 ►
Some of them went willingly to leave their home
00:09:16 ►
because the government offered them homes and money.
00:09:20 ►
Of course.
00:09:21 ►
Yeah, so to this day, some of them are doing well, especially the younger ones.
00:09:32 ►
The older people, I know some of them, they’re not happy.
00:09:39 ►
They’re in a strange place.
00:09:42 ►
Right.
00:09:43 ►
They miss their home.
00:09:44 ►
Of course.
00:09:45 ►
They miss, you know.
00:09:47 ►
So some of them weren’t forced.
00:09:52 ►
Some of them thought they have a better chance of getting jobs, education, you know.
00:09:59 ►
And some of them do.
00:10:01 ►
Some of them actually have good jobs.
00:10:03 ►
Some of them are in school.
00:10:06 ►
Kids have a better school.
00:10:08 ►
Oh, well, that’s good.
00:10:09 ►
That’s good, I guess.
00:10:10 ►
I mean, do you think, though, that it was a big disruption for the community itself?
00:10:15 ►
At the time.
00:10:17 ►
Yeah.
00:10:17 ►
At the time, it was like that.
00:10:19 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:10:19 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:10:30 ►
but even though people went to different states,
00:10:34 ►
different areas to have their homes and all that,
00:10:37 ►
we’re still faced with alcoholism.
00:10:40 ►
We’re still faced with drugs. We’re still faced with a lot of things.
00:10:45 ►
Well, all right.
00:10:48 ►
It is my understanding in terms of the subject of alcoholism and addiction, drug addiction,
00:10:54 ►
that the peyote ceremony has been a huge help for many people,
00:11:03 ►
particularly Native people who suffer from addiction.
00:11:07 ►
Is that correct?
00:11:09 ►
It could be true, but it’s going to be up to the individual.
00:11:13 ►
Of course.
00:11:14 ►
That wants to do away with it or, you know, they will take medicine, but they will still
00:11:20 ►
take alcohol, too, on the side.
00:11:23 ►
Okay.
00:11:24 ►
So it’s obviously more than just the medicine.
00:11:28 ►
Yeah.
00:11:29 ►
Yeah.
00:11:31 ►
And I know some of them, you know, they pray good,
00:11:37 ►
but, you know, sometimes something comes up
00:11:40 ►
and they will still, you know, do a little of both.
00:11:44 ►
But then again, that’s the choice that they make.
00:11:49 ►
Some younger people are taking medicine nowadays.
00:11:54 ►
They do their prayers, and they really hold it strong.
00:11:59 ►
They really abide by how they want to be.
00:12:07 ►
So it’s good and it’s not good.
00:12:12 ►
Right, right.
00:12:13 ►
How did you come to begin working with the peyote, Rose?
00:12:19 ►
Well, all my life while I was growing up,
00:12:24 ►
I had relatives that were taking medicine already.
00:12:29 ►
I just hear about it, but never really got around to it.
00:12:33 ►
I don’t know why.
00:12:37 ►
It wasn’t until 1990 that I got close to it
00:12:46 ►
me and my late husband
00:12:48 ►
started having marriage problems
00:12:52 ►
and his aunt wanted us to stay together
00:12:56 ►
and so she’s the one that
00:12:58 ►
set up a meeting for us
00:13:00 ►
so our first time eating the medicine
00:13:04 ►
first time to be in a TP and ceremony with
00:13:09 ►
the kids and the person that was running the whole ceremony had a chance to talk to us.
00:13:20 ►
The other people they talked to, you know, how we should be, and we shouldn’t be like that,
00:13:30 ►
and things like that. So, you know, it didn’t get better right away, you know, years.
00:13:51 ►
So in so many ways, that one meeting, that first time, helps things get better.
00:14:00 ►
And so in that first meeting, did it begin with them speaking to you about, I guess, offering their wisdom in terms of how to assist your marriage
00:14:05 ►
and then you ate the peyote
00:14:07 ►
and then
00:14:08 ►
alright so then what would be
00:14:11 ►
the purpose then of eating the peyote
00:14:13 ►
obviously there is a spirit there that
00:14:15 ►
assists as well
00:14:17 ►
we were getting counseling
00:14:19 ►
right
00:14:20 ►
we were getting counseling
00:14:22 ►
we take the medicine
00:14:24 ►
and spiritually that helps if we weren’t exactly doing our prayers or anything.
00:14:33 ►
So it was a start to where we’re learning how to pray again.
00:14:40 ►
Well, for me, because my late husband was Catholic, and I was, you know, Mormon.
00:14:46 ►
You were Mormon? You were raised Mormon?
00:14:49 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:14:49 ►
And your husband was raised?
00:14:50 ►
Catholic.
00:14:51 ►
Catholic. Wow. Wow. My goodness.
00:14:56 ►
In Mormon, I pray, you know, one prayer.
00:15:01 ►
We say one prayer, and then we use that same prayer you know
00:15:05 ►
but with the medicine
00:15:09 ►
you pray for everything
00:15:11 ►
you pray for
00:15:15 ►
the world, the water
00:15:18 ►
the ocean, the stream
00:15:21 ►
the animals, the birds
00:15:22 ►
you pray for everything
00:15:24 ►
so not just yourself the stream, the animals, the birds. You pray for everything.
00:15:27 ►
So not just yourself.
00:15:32 ►
Sometimes when you pray for others,
00:15:33 ►
you kind of forget yourself.
00:15:35 ►
You have to pray.
00:15:39 ►
And I believe that’s what happened on our first ceremonial,
00:15:43 ►
is that they prayed for us, the people that came.
00:15:46 ►
And so this was held within a teepee?
00:15:50 ►
And was there a fire also that was burning in the center?
00:15:51 ►
Yeah, there was a fire going all night.
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That’s why they had that fire chief.
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They take care of the fire.
00:16:00 ►
And so this peyote ceremony is an all-night ceremony,
00:16:03 ►
and that fire is kept going all night,
00:16:05 ►
and the fire is in the center of the circle you’re all sitting in a circle around the fire
00:16:07 ►
and they do their smoke
00:16:09 ►
when they want to pray for you
00:16:12 ►
you drink the medicine
00:16:14 ►
goes around
00:16:16 ►
and the
00:16:17 ►
instrument
00:16:19 ►
it goes around too
00:16:22 ►
they sing
00:16:23 ►
sing a lot of good songs
00:16:26 ►
healing songs, new songs
00:16:28 ►
and
00:16:28 ►
you know some of those songs
00:16:32 ►
if you listen
00:16:34 ►
to it when they sing
00:16:36 ►
in Navajo
00:16:36 ►
there’s a lot of good words in there
00:16:40 ►
teaching words
00:16:42 ►
but you have to listen to hear it.
00:16:47 ►
And you understand from that that it’s a healing song.
00:16:54 ►
And in the peyote meeting, you will actually cry, have tears,
00:17:07 ►
because it moves.
00:17:09 ►
It moves you around.
00:17:11 ►
Some place in your body you kind of shut down.
00:17:14 ►
Some place in your body you close it off to other people.
00:17:21 ►
You don’t want other people to know what you’re going through.
00:17:21 ►
to other people.
00:17:24 ►
You don’t want other people to know what you’re going through.
00:17:27 ►
So this medicine, when you take it,
00:17:30 ►
it helps you open up those.
00:17:31 ►
Those closed eyes. And you’re able to bring out your true feelings.
00:17:37 ►
And that’s where your tears will come in.
00:17:44 ►
And it’s a release to let go of some things that you’re carrying with you.
00:17:50 ►
And then you have community around you as well.
00:17:54 ►
Yeah.
00:17:54 ►
Yeah, that’s beautiful.
00:17:56 ►
What is the purpose of the fire?
00:17:59 ►
The purpose of the fire,
00:18:04 ►
we have a fire burning in our heart, right? We live by the fire, we live
00:18:12 ►
by water. So many percentage of our body takes out water. And we live with air. You know,
00:18:23 ►
we live with air to breathe. It’s almost the same thing with all the animals, you know, we live with air to breathe.
00:18:26 ►
It’s almost the same thing with all the animals, you know, they live with that fire in their
00:18:32 ►
heart, everlasting fire.
00:18:36 ►
This place has a fire, it has water, it has air. So everything that we have runs by those elements.
00:18:49 ►
Our vehicle runs by fire, water, air.
00:18:55 ►
So in that term, we have the everlasting fire.
00:19:02 ►
We have the everlasting water, air.
00:19:07 ►
So that’s the purpose is, you know, for that fire to be going for you.
00:19:13 ►
It gets hot, really hot, but if you know how to withstand it,
00:19:18 ►
you can sit there and take it.
00:19:20 ►
Some people can’t.
00:19:24 ►
Really? And so if they can’t.
00:19:27 ►
Really? And so if they can’t, then they leave the TB?
00:19:29 ►
Sometimes, yeah.
00:19:30 ►
Oh, my goodness. Okay.
00:19:34 ►
But if you really focus on what needs to be done,
00:19:40 ►
what needs to be corrected, you know, that fire helps you.
00:19:42 ►
Helps you burn it away.
00:19:45 ►
Yeah, you can look in there and see things.
00:19:48 ►
Oh, look into the fire.
00:19:48 ►
Yes.
00:19:55 ►
When I did the one peyote ceremony that I was so graced to be able to participate in, I was going through a rough time at one point,
00:19:58 ►
and the woman sitting next to me leaned in and said,
00:20:02 ►
Look into the fire.
00:20:03 ►
Look into the fire.
00:20:04 ►
And that’s when the grandfather peyote started speaking to me,
00:20:09 ►
and everything changed.
00:20:10 ►
Yeah.
00:20:12 ►
Some people, they actually will hear things
00:20:15 ►
that the next person to them don’t hear it.
00:20:20 ►
So it’s really good.
00:20:24 ►
The sacred medicine, it’s really good, the sacred medicine.
00:20:27 ►
It’s really good.
00:20:30 ►
It’ll help you, and it will help you if you let it, if you want it.
00:20:39 ►
Right, right.
00:20:39 ►
Now, you are a water carrier.
00:20:42 ►
Can you explain that function within the peyote ceremony?
00:20:47 ►
Okay, my late husband and I, we were given a fireplace from Ken Littlefish, Nancy Littlefish,
00:20:56 ►
that lives in Port Angeles.
00:20:58 ►
Can you explain what is it to be given a fireplace?
00:21:02 ►
What does that mean?
00:21:03 ►
Well, when they came out one year, Nancy and Ken Littlefish,
00:21:09 ►
they came out to our place in Wheatfield,
00:21:12 ►
and we planned a meeting.
00:21:17 ►
And a meeting means you have a peyote ceremony?
00:21:20 ►
We have a peyote prayer service.
00:21:22 ►
Okay.
00:21:23 ►
So my husband sat in the cedar position,
00:21:29 ►
and I sat in the patient position,
00:21:34 ►
and Ken sat in the roadman position.
00:21:43 ►
The roadman?
00:21:44 ►
Yeah. Okay.
00:21:45 ►
So we talk about what we go through.
00:21:50 ►
So around midnight, he told my husband to stand up.
00:21:55 ►
And he stood up, and I stood up.
00:21:58 ►
Nancy stood up. All four of us stood up.
00:22:02 ►
And he says says I came here
00:22:05 ►
I want to give you a piece
00:22:07 ►
of my fireplace
00:22:08 ►
I’m going to have
00:22:12 ►
both of you use it
00:22:13 ►
when he sits here
00:22:16 ►
he’s going to sit
00:22:17 ►
in the water lady position
00:22:20 ►
so in there
00:22:23 ►
it’s changed place
00:22:24 ►
my husband didn’t know
00:22:28 ►
everything he just knew how to take medicine how to sing what what procedure uh each officer does
00:22:39 ►
he knew that and he beyond that, he didn’t know. I didn’t either.
00:22:48 ►
To this day, I still don’t know all of it.
00:22:52 ►
I had to get a little piece
00:22:54 ►
and put it together.
00:22:58 ►
So that’s how
00:23:00 ►
he left that
00:23:02 ►
fireplace with us.
00:23:06 ►
Meaning you could then call your own ceremonies with Icy.
00:23:11 ►
All right.
00:23:12 ►
All right.
00:23:13 ►
And that’s when I got that spot to sit with the water in the morning.
00:23:18 ►
And what does that mean?
00:23:19 ►
That I can sit there and help him with the water.
00:23:26 ►
And what does that look like?
00:23:28 ►
To sit behind the water in the morning, it’s a responsibility.
00:23:38 ►
And we also are a teacher to the younger ones
00:23:43 ►
so they can learn how to bring in water.
00:23:46 ►
Nowadays they’ve got children, five, six years old, bringing in water.
00:23:52 ►
It’s a job that a woman holds.
00:23:57 ►
And so everyone drinks the water then?
00:24:01 ►
At midnight, that’s when the man brings in the water.
00:24:05 ►
Ah, okay.
00:24:07 ►
They say when the man brings in the water, they say that’s hot water.
00:24:13 ►
Hot water?
00:24:14 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:24:14 ►
It’s not hot, but it’s preferred as he brings in the hot water
00:24:20 ►
to help you with things that you need to…
00:24:26 ►
Release.
00:24:27 ►
Yeah.
00:24:27 ►
Okay.
00:24:27 ►
Or work through.
00:24:29 ►
You know, stress, worries.
00:24:32 ►
So when the woman brings it in in the morning,
00:24:35 ►
it’s cool water.
00:24:37 ►
Ah.
00:24:38 ►
A woman always makes things better when you’re sick, right?
00:24:43 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:24:44 ►
Your mother can touch you when you’re sick.
00:24:48 ►
It feels good.
00:24:49 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:24:50 ►
It’s something like that.
00:24:52 ►
So very nurturing.
00:24:54 ►
Yeah.
00:24:55 ►
Very maternal, almost.
00:24:58 ►
So that’s, you know, and you get to sit there and pray
00:25:02 ►
of what you really want to pray about
00:25:06 ►
they don’t tell you in there
00:25:09 ►
pray for this, pray for that
00:25:11 ►
you pray the way you want
00:25:13 ►
you can do a long prayer
00:25:16 ►
do a short prayer
00:25:17 ►
I know one rope man told us
00:25:20 ►
if you don’t know how to pray
00:25:23 ►
if you just say
00:25:24 ►
bless me, that will take
00:25:28 ►
care of all the prayers of the prayers. Just two words you can say, it will take care of
00:25:36 ►
it. And down the line, you know, your prayer gets longer, it seems.
00:25:41 ►
you add things and so
00:25:46 ►
do you feel when you
00:25:47 ►
participate in this ceremony
00:25:49 ►
do you feel close to your
00:25:51 ►
ancestors as well
00:25:53 ►
I feel closer
00:25:56 ►
to the medicine too
00:25:57 ►
closer to the medicine
00:25:59 ►
because I’m able to
00:26:00 ►
look at it and taste it
00:26:03 ►
you just feel it in your heart
00:26:07 ►
that it wants to take care of you.
00:26:14 ►
It wants to take care of your problem.
00:26:16 ►
The medicine does.
00:26:17 ►
Yes.
00:26:18 ►
Well, let’s talk about that
00:26:19 ►
because it’s sounding to me like you are saying
00:26:23 ►
there is an intelligence,
00:26:25 ►
there is a spirit within that medicine.
00:26:30 ►
And so this is something you know in your heart to be true.
00:26:34 ►
Yes.
00:26:36 ►
And is it more of a, I understand, a grandfatherly spirit?
00:26:39 ►
Do you call it grandfather?
00:26:41 ►
I call the medicine my mom.
00:26:41 ►
I don’t call it grandfather.
00:26:44 ►
I call the medicine my mom.
00:26:50 ►
I call the fire my grandfather.
00:26:54 ►
So the medicine, I call it my mom.
00:27:00 ►
Because you can tell almost anything to your mom.
00:27:03 ►
That’s how I feel with the medicine. I can say anything in my prayer to the medicine.
00:27:08 ►
To where it’s different to tell my own mother, my birth mother. Because this medicine I know
00:27:18 ►
will help me. Like it has, it helps you.
00:27:26 ►
It’ll listen.
00:27:27 ►
It’ll listen.
00:27:31 ►
So whatever you say, whatever you do,
00:27:34 ►
the medicine will help you.
00:27:37 ►
And so you are having, when you take this medicine, a direct experience of being almost held, it seems,
00:27:46 ►
by a very kind and loving spirit presence, if you will.
00:27:54 ►
That’s certainly what I felt as well when I experienced that medicine.
00:27:58 ►
And then surrounded, you’re sitting in a circle,
00:28:02 ►
which in itself is very symbolic,
00:28:06 ►
and then you are surrounded by community and that fire.
00:28:10 ►
And then the singing, I think the singing is a very powerful part.
00:28:16 ►
You spoke of singing.
00:28:17 ►
I didn’t hear women speak in Navajo, probably because there wasn’t anyone there who could speak Navajo.
00:28:22 ►
Do you speak Navajo?
00:28:24 ►
Yes, fluently.
00:28:26 ►
Fluently.
00:28:27 ►
And yet you were raised Mormon.
00:28:31 ►
And so you were raised Mormon.
00:28:33 ►
No, I wasn’t really raised Mormon.
00:28:35 ►
I was in a Mormon home for a year
00:28:39 ►
because on the reservation we have all kinds of churches.
00:28:44 ►
Even in Sanders, I have Mormon that comes over.
00:28:47 ►
I have Jehovah Witness come over.
00:28:49 ►
I have Christian come over.
00:28:51 ►
I have Ohio Faith come over.
00:28:54 ►
My goodness.
00:28:55 ►
Everything except the actual Native.
00:28:59 ►
Well, the Native NAC is still in my home.
00:29:03 ►
The Native American Church.
00:29:04 ►
And I’m honest about it.
00:29:05 ►
If the Mormon comes and I say, you know,
00:29:08 ►
do you want to pray?
00:29:09 ►
I say, oh, yeah.
00:29:11 ►
Or you can pray.
00:29:14 ►
But I hear that same prayer over and over.
00:29:17 ►
So when they ask me to pray,
00:29:19 ►
I pray for everything about them,
00:29:21 ►
their family, even the churches,
00:29:23 ►
the leader of the churches.
00:29:25 ►
You know, make sure that, you know, whatever decisions they make, you know, make it right.
00:29:30 ►
You know, make it right for the two young men that are here.
00:29:37 ►
But I keep my faith.
00:29:41 ►
I’m with the Native American Church.
00:29:43 ►
I eat the peyote, you know.
00:29:44 ►
But you eat the drugs, you
00:29:46 ►
know. Yeah, to you I do, but to me it’s a medicine.
00:29:51 ►
They call it drugs. And so are they coming to your home and essentially trying to convince
00:29:57 ►
you to leave the peyote?
00:30:00 ►
But I tell them, I said, you know, you’re’re in my home so don’t say that when you go home you can
00:30:07 ►
say that you know but not not in my home don’t say that and they respect that yeah good yeah i i had
00:30:15 ►
to tell one that you know that i said don’t say that if you can come here i welcome you to my home but there’s something that you can’t say because i have the
00:30:28 ►
instrument in my room i have my medicine i have my peyote in the back where where where you know
00:30:36 ►
my goodness so but one actually told me he, you’re taking drugs. I said, okay, I’m taking drugs.
00:30:46 ►
Did she know that
00:30:48 ►
the Mormon are growing
00:30:50 ►
Bardies in Idaho?
00:30:52 ►
That Bardie makes beer.
00:30:54 ►
So what do you say?
00:30:57 ►
He says,
00:30:58 ►
I don’t think so. I said,
00:31:00 ►
I know because I read the newspaper.
00:31:03 ►
Do your research
00:31:04 ►
and you’ll see.
00:31:07 ►
So when you’re here, you know, it’s okay.
00:31:13 ►
The medicine will take care of you as soon as you leave my door.
00:31:17 ►
Go to another home, make sure you’re welcome there
00:31:20 ►
so the other people won’t slam the door in your face.
00:31:24 ►
You’re very gracious rose you’re much
00:31:27 ►
nicer than i would be but bahia faith there they don’t mind they welcome you they welcome the
00:31:37 ►
traditional people if you’re christian you go to them for prayer they’ll pray for you so the bahia
00:31:42 ►
faith doesn’t are you saying they don’t try to
00:31:45 ►
convince you to leave the page they actually take part half interesting
00:31:50 ►
interesting christians are a little different they they will actually you know it’s not right
00:31:58 ►
for you to take the peyote you know you’re not going to get to god you know you’re not going to get to God you’re not going to get to heaven
00:32:05 ►
you’re going to burn
00:32:07 ►
you know
00:32:08 ►
well
00:32:09 ►
but I say
00:32:11 ►
I still pray for you
00:32:14 ►
and there I still pray
00:32:17 ►
for you
00:32:18 ►
so you
00:32:20 ►
stand Rose very
00:32:23 ►
strong in your own faith, clearly.
00:32:25 ►
Yes.
00:32:26 ►
I mean, that to me, that is what it is to have a sacred medicine practice,
00:32:34 ►
a sacred relationship with your creator,
00:32:39 ►
and know that that is your truth.
00:32:43 ►
Yeah.
00:32:44 ►
And so then it just doesn’t matter what other people say.
00:32:50 ►
You just request that they be respectful.
00:32:53 ►
I really appreciate that.
00:32:55 ►
So I really take care of the faith that I have.
00:33:02 ►
So when I go to other places, to other meetings, if there’s something that’s
00:33:07 ►
not going right, I have to speak up because I have to protect that medicine. I have to
00:33:13 ►
protect the fireplace because in some places it’s still illegal. So if somebody comes in and starts acting wrong, or some people, the first time medicine, they’ll get sick, so they go outside.
00:33:32 ►
We have to take care of that person.
00:33:35 ►
Because I sometimes discourage people from not leaving early in the morning to go.
00:33:42 ►
I said, no, you can be on the road.
00:33:47 ►
You can’t do that while you still have that medicine.
00:33:50 ►
You might get stopped by the police and you can get a lot of people in trouble.
00:33:52 ►
So you have to take care of yourself first.
00:33:57 ►
There’s a whole closing piece, though, isn’t there?
00:34:01 ►
In the morning, because the one ceremony I attended,
00:34:05 ►
it wasn’t just over at 6 a.m.
00:34:08 ►
There were people who then came in with the water,
00:34:11 ►
as you were saying, as you do,
00:34:13 ►
and also with, as I recall, fruit.
00:34:18 ►
Oh, we had the morning fruit, yes.
00:34:20 ►
Yes, yes.
00:34:21 ►
So, yeah, the ceremony went well into the morning.
00:34:27 ►
Yeah, the food is always brought in in the morning.
00:34:31 ►
And what does that represent?
00:34:34 ►
It brings in corn, meat, and fruits.
00:34:40 ►
Corn, well, in different fireplaces, corn represents different things of the way they were taught.
00:34:51 ►
But for us, you know, maybe not just us, but for a lot of people, corn is what we grew up on.
00:35:03 ►
It takes care of us
00:35:06 ►
as food it can last longer
00:35:08 ►
but corn also
00:35:12 ►
represent
00:35:13 ►
a lot of things
00:35:16 ►
like the colors
00:35:17 ►
there’s some that are red, blue
00:35:20 ►
so with the yellow
00:35:22 ►
corn we pray with it
00:35:24 ►
that’s always been the tradition from way back you pray with the yellow corn we pray with it that’s always been the traditional from way back you
00:35:27 ►
pray with the yellow corn how the white one okay how the yellow the yellow corn
00:35:34 ►
the white corn we pray with it in the morning the yellow one we pray with it in the evening. But I heard, that was some years ago I first heard that.
00:35:52 ►
We do a prayer in the morning with the white corn.
00:35:58 ►
In the afternoon, we pray with the blue corn.
00:36:02 ►
In the evening, we pray with the blue corn in the evening we pray with the
00:36:06 ►
yellow corn
00:36:08 ►
at midnight
00:36:09 ►
we pray with the black corn
00:36:11 ►
see I didn’t know that
00:36:13 ►
but I heard it from my mother
00:36:16 ►
so but the
00:36:18 ►
two things
00:36:18 ►
it probably
00:36:21 ►
still happens
00:36:23 ►
in homes.
00:36:27 ►
So that’s where our prayer comes in,
00:36:30 ►
and prayer helps us in different ceremonials
00:36:36 ►
that are done in the Navajo tradition.
00:36:44 ►
So corn is a medicine. So in that way, corn is part of the animal that sacrificed.
00:37:07 ►
So we can take that and consider a medicine again.
00:37:12 ►
They use beef or buffalo, deer, that kind of animal.
00:37:21 ►
So they sacrificed themselves for us. To day you know we still rely on meat
00:37:29 ►
and then for the fruits they have that sweet taste to it and
00:37:38 ►
the way i know about the fruits is that because it’s sweet,
00:37:48 ►
and, you know, you always want to give something sweet to your child,
00:37:51 ►
and they feel good when they’re eating something sweet.
00:37:56 ►
So it kind of brings a memory back of how it was when you were growing up.
00:38:02 ►
Every so often we would get sweets.
00:38:06 ►
Not all the time, maybe three, four times a year.
00:38:10 ►
So when we have sweet, we would…
00:38:13 ►
Well, for me, it kind of takes me back into my childhood
00:38:16 ►
to this day if I have one.
00:38:21 ►
So, yeah, I remember at one time
00:38:23 ►
we used to have something like this during Christmas
00:38:29 ►
time. So it’s kind of like a memory, a sweetness of your life when you were growing up. I know
00:38:39 ►
in the state some sweets are not being given to kids because of, you know,
00:38:46 ►
for health reasons.
00:38:48 ►
Of course.
00:38:48 ►
Yeah.
00:38:49 ►
But one little candy’s not going to hurt a child.
00:38:54 ►
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:55 ►
Well, so these are very specific components
00:39:03 ►
of what is a
00:39:06 ►
ritual practice.
00:39:08 ►
I mean, ritual is very much
00:39:10 ►
a part of
00:39:11 ►
the peyote experience
00:39:14 ►
within the Native American Church.
00:39:18 ►
What would you say is
00:39:20 ►
the importance
00:39:22 ►
of incorporating ritual
00:39:24 ►
when you are working with the peyote.
00:39:28 ►
What would you say that ritual,
00:39:31 ►
what does ritual do
00:39:32 ►
in terms of does it elevate the experience?
00:39:37 ►
What is the importance of ritual?
00:39:40 ►
You mean inside?
00:39:42 ►
Within the ceremony, yeah.
00:39:44 ►
Well, for one thing, they always tell you,
00:39:47 ►
watch the way you talk.
00:39:50 ►
You talk and hear really good.
00:39:52 ►
When you go through that doorway, continue to practice that.
00:39:58 ►
Watch your word, watch your lip.
00:40:01 ►
Watch what you say.
00:40:04 ►
Because sometimes that word can turn around and attack you
00:40:08 ►
because you use words that you shouldn’t do.
00:40:14 ►
It taught me that.
00:40:17 ►
I know my late husband, when I get mad, I used to get mad,
00:40:21 ►
and he used to get scared of me.
00:40:24 ►
And then I do beat work. So one lesson
00:40:28 ►
that I really got, we were having a POE meeting in Flagstaff that ran by my late relative.
00:40:39 ►
He was also my father too. And the man that sat next to him, the cedar chief, he was a highway patrol.
00:40:50 ►
Really?
00:40:52 ►
Yeah. And he introduced him and he says, you’re also my daughter. You know, he’s my brother,
00:41:00 ►
your late father was my brother. So we’re all brothers.
00:41:05 ►
So you’re my daughter.
00:41:07 ►
He says, I know what your husband’s saying about you.
00:41:11 ►
You get mad.
00:41:13 ►
You use these words.
00:41:16 ►
He says, but you know what?
00:41:17 ►
He says, I’ve seen your beadwork.
00:41:20 ►
He says, it’s a beautiful thing you do.
00:41:24 ►
He says, from here on on I’m going to advise you
00:41:27 ►
pick up your words like the way you pick your beads
00:41:31 ►
he says I want you to do that
00:41:36 ►
I’m not asking you
00:41:38 ►
try, I’m going to ask you to do it
00:41:43 ►
pick your words from here on.
00:41:47 ►
I’m not going to ask nothing of you.
00:41:49 ►
I’m not going to ask you to do a beat word for me.
00:41:52 ►
I want you to learn.
00:41:54 ►
This is an NAC meeting.
00:41:58 ►
This is a prayer service.
00:41:59 ►
Just for both of you.
00:42:01 ►
Just for you mainly because you get a mouth.
00:42:04 ►
Just for both of you, just for you mainly because you get a mouth.
00:42:09 ►
And your husband will be happy.
00:42:12 ►
And you will be happy.
00:42:14 ►
The kids will be happy.
00:42:17 ►
The medicine will be happy.
00:42:21 ►
He said, I will be happy because you’re my daughter.
00:42:26 ►
I’m saying this because you’re my daughter. I’m saying this because you’re my daughter.
00:42:30 ►
So that was one lesson.
00:42:34 ►
It took me from that time, that morning,
00:42:36 ►
it helped me.
00:42:40 ►
It helped me all that time.
00:42:43 ►
So that’s part of the ritual then.
00:42:45 ►
I mean, that’s part of the ritual then I mean that’s part of the passing of wisdom
00:42:48 ►
the advice, the counsel
00:42:50 ►
and I have used that
00:42:52 ►
here and there
00:42:54 ►
since that time
00:42:55 ►
I say whatever
00:42:58 ►
you do as a hobby
00:43:00 ►
or as a job
00:43:01 ►
use that on yourself too
00:43:04 ►
so it became a lesson for me. It became
00:43:08 ►
a lesson to other people that I came through when we passed through each other’s life.
00:43:16 ►
So one works like that through a prayer service that helped me and helped another person,
00:43:27 ►
and that person helped another person.
00:43:30 ►
And prayer is a spiritual component, and clearly it works.
00:43:38 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:43:49 ►
You can tell somebody some things so many times after drinking,
00:43:51 ►
and say, don’t do that, don’t do that.
00:43:55 ►
You have to put in another word.
00:43:59 ►
Sometimes you can put your tears in there.
00:44:01 ►
Beg a person.
00:44:08 ►
Do it in a more loving, kind way,
00:44:12 ►
and that person you’re talking to,
00:44:14 ►
the heart will open up.
00:44:17 ►
If you just sit there and say,
00:44:18 ►
don’t be doing that,
00:44:20 ►
where is it going to take you?
00:44:21 ►
You’re going nowhere.
00:44:24 ►
They don’t want to hear that.
00:44:25 ►
They want something.
00:44:28 ►
Something that their heart is yearning for.
00:44:32 ►
You know, one kind word to a person can change something within them.
00:44:36 ►
Yes, so true.
00:44:37 ►
Maybe if you go to a juvenile place,
00:44:42 ►
if you just talk to them right,
00:44:44 ►
they will change.
00:44:45 ►
I know they will.
00:44:46 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:44:50 ►
That’s because that medicine’s helping you
00:44:53 ►
to learn how to talk.
00:44:56 ►
Because that medicine
00:44:57 ►
is already a loving medicine.
00:45:02 ►
It also can be a mean medicine too
00:45:06 ►
if you can’t get things
00:45:07 ►
through your head.
00:45:09 ►
It will shake you.
00:45:11 ►
Listen.
00:45:13 ►
Really listen.
00:45:15 ►
So that would be
00:45:16 ►
what some people experience
00:45:18 ►
on the different
00:45:19 ►
visionary medicines
00:45:20 ►
where they have a real
00:45:21 ►
challenging time.
00:45:23 ►
Some people will spank you.
00:45:24 ►
Yeah.
00:45:26 ►
It’s just trying to make you realize that you’re a person.
00:45:32 ►
You don’t deserve to be like that.
00:45:34 ►
I want you to be, you know, a person that will see things in the right way,
00:45:42 ►
open up your eyes to more things, Open up your eyes to more things.
00:45:47 ►
Open up your heart to more things.
00:45:50 ►
You know, with our five senses,
00:45:56 ►
our eye, our touch, our feelings, our taste, our hearing, you know,
00:45:58 ►
that will all open up.
00:46:02 ►
When you work with the medicine.
00:46:03 ►
Yes. Not only during the prayer service, in your everyday life.
00:46:09 ►
Yes, because it stays with you, doesn’t it?
00:46:11 ►
It will always be near you, be there.
00:46:15 ►
Well, I have a question.
00:46:16 ►
I know peyote grows very slowly,
00:46:20 ►
and I understand it is endangered in some areas.
00:46:24 ►
In many areas where it used to grow prolifically
00:46:27 ►
it doesn’t even grow anymore
00:46:28 ►
and so what do the people within the Native American church do
00:46:35 ►
to help keep the peyote growing and available?
00:46:42 ►
growing and available.
00:46:51 ►
The way I think is that if we could just all come together,
00:47:02 ►
all that, it doesn’t matter what NAC you belong to,
00:47:05 ►
as long as you partake of the medicine.
00:47:10 ►
And if people can all come together and try to agree,
00:47:15 ►
not criticize each other about the medicine,
00:47:17 ►
because that’s what’s going on now.
00:47:20 ►
Oh, so-and-so is not doing things right. So-and-so is not, you know, there’s words going back and forth that’s why the medicine
00:47:27 ►
is kind of backing up oh really yeah he says oh you know the medicine is not going to be so
00:47:36 ►
available you mean yeah because of what we’re doing it ourselves that’s an interesting perspective yeah but if we do things you know accordingly to
00:47:48 ►
the way it wants we’re trying to put more laws on it too more laws on it to say what we we make the
00:47:57 ►
law we say oh you can’t do that you can’t sit like You can’t. A woman can’t sing in the peyote meeting.
00:48:05 ►
A woman, a woman, you know. Oh, they don’t let women, some fireplaces don’t let the women sing?
00:48:12 ►
Yeah. Really? That’s true. Some women aren’t allowed to speak in the meeting. Or speak?
00:48:19 ►
Yeah. Just men speak? Yeah. You need both, as you know. I went to a prayer service where they said,
00:48:28 ►
I said, can I talk? I said, no, you’re not allowed. I said, oh, okay. Then I should sneak out. You did.
00:48:37 ►
They wouldn’t notice. Oh my goodness. It is true. But now that the younger men that are coming,
00:48:47 ►
and they’re more open-minded,
00:48:50 ►
they see more things than the older people.
00:48:58 ►
The older people are strict, yeah, for a lot of reasons.
00:49:02 ►
Because, you know, we need that strictness.
00:49:06 ►
We keep doing things wrong, do it again, repeat things over, you know.
00:49:10 ►
They will, you know, tell us, kind of shake us.
00:49:15 ►
But now the younger kids are more open-minded.
00:49:20 ►
They’re, you know, more into…
00:49:24 ►
They educate themselves, really, is what they’re doing.
00:49:30 ►
They don’t all agree with the laws.
00:49:38 ►
So if we can come up together and pray for each other and talk to each other good,
00:49:49 ►
think about each other good, not talk about the next person,
00:49:54 ►
the medicine will come back, start coming back.
00:49:57 ►
Oh, okay, so become more available, growing in areas maybe that it hasn’t.
00:50:03 ►
I have a son in Mexico.
00:50:06 ►
I talked to him earlier.
00:50:08 ►
He is trying to work with the Mexico government.
00:50:14 ►
He’s working with the Navajo Nation and all other native nations.
00:50:21 ►
He even has gone to United Nations in New York,
00:50:25 ►
trying to get the medicine Mexico
00:50:27 ►
into United States.
00:50:31 ►
Oh,
00:50:31 ►
why you can’t bring the peyote from
00:50:33 ►
Mexico into the United States?
00:50:35 ►
But some have done it.
00:50:39 ►
How?
00:50:40 ►
I don’t know. Do you think
00:50:42 ►
they’re doing that because they want to protect
00:50:43 ►
what little peyote they have growing in Mexico?
00:50:47 ►
Mexico is, they got medicine.
00:50:52 ►
And my son’s going to buy a land and grow medicine.
00:50:57 ►
And just dedicate it to growing peyote?
00:50:59 ►
And keep the medicine going for all people.
00:51:03 ►
Ah.
00:51:03 ►
Keep the medicine going for all people.
00:51:12 ►
But Texas, it doesn’t grow like the way it used to.
00:51:20 ►
I have heard that they’re selling medicine by the roadside now in Texas.
00:51:22 ►
Who’s selling medicine by the roadside? People that grows.
00:51:23 ►
Okay.
00:51:24 ►
Yeah.
00:51:22 ►
who’s selling medicine by their own people that grows
00:51:23 ►
so it will come back
00:51:28 ►
but it’s going to be up to the people again
00:51:32 ►
I think that’s very interesting
00:51:35 ►
because it has been coming to me more and more
00:51:37 ►
that I think human beings
00:51:41 ►
are a very intrinsic part of the earth
00:51:44 ►
I think we do belong here I do not think beings are a very intrinsic part of the earth. I think we do belong here.
00:51:46 ►
I do not think we are a cancer.
00:51:48 ►
I really don’t.
00:51:48 ►
I think we have lost our way dramatically.
00:51:52 ►
And when human beings lose their way,
00:51:55 ►
I think nature, of course, reflects that,
00:51:59 ►
which is why it’s a polluted mess out there,
00:52:02 ►
because people are a polluted mess. And so what you’re saying
00:52:07 ►
makes perfect sense, that if certainly native people who work with the peyote, if they can come
00:52:16 ►
into their own harmony, because of course, this is a spiritual practice, and this is a spirit
00:52:23 ►
intelligence, clearly that we’re speaking about here, that
00:52:27 ►
if that harmony could be established, that then the peyote itself would respond to it.
00:52:32 ►
This is what it sounds to me like you are saying, and then would all of a sudden be
00:52:36 ►
a little more available, perhaps in areas where it has not been thus far.
00:52:41 ►
In other words, that it is reflecting the imbalance, the disharmony right now.
00:52:50 ►
And even some rogue people, they ask for a lot of money to run prayer service.
00:52:58 ►
See, that’s where things are backing up to, the medicine’s backing up.
00:53:03 ►
Oh, okay, so that didn’t used to be before?
00:53:07 ►
No.
00:53:08 ►
No, so you would have a peyote ceremony or a meeting, as you call it,
00:53:12 ►
and people would come in, and no one would pay for this.
00:53:16 ►
No, the real person wants the money.
00:53:19 ►
Now they do, but they didn’t used to.
00:53:22 ►
It’s like a job.
00:53:22 ►
Now they do, but they didn’t used to.
00:53:24 ►
It’s like a job.
00:53:29 ►
If I do a meeting for you, I want 500.
00:53:35 ►
I mean, the person’s already not well to ask for a meeting, a prayer done.
00:53:40 ►
If you take $500, that person’s just going to keep suffering.
00:53:47 ►
Now, in the past, would there be some kind of gifting that you would do for the roadmen? If you bring tobacco or maybe something that you just have, you know, jewelry.
00:53:55 ►
Something special.
00:53:56 ►
You know, you can’t give them so much money, you know, for them to travel.
00:54:01 ►
Something to eat on the way.
00:54:03 ►
Right.
00:54:04 ►
You know, this is what I can give you. Right.
00:54:07 ►
This, you know, I don’t have much. And a lot of people don’t have much. So when you’re
00:54:14 ►
asked to put down a thousand, you know, never mind, you know. I’ll see if I can find somebody else. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:54:33 ►
So that’s where, you know, the medicine.
00:54:37 ►
Don’t want to be in a peyote if there’s going to be,
00:54:41 ►
if somebody’s going to be asking for money.
00:54:44 ►
It’s not the medicine.
00:54:46 ►
Yes, the medicine costs money.
00:54:58 ►
Maybe $500 for a thousand button. I know people spend a lot to have medicine, but you’ve got to have medicine to have a paradigm. I know one time my daughter says,
00:55:05 ►
what will happen?
00:55:08 ►
No, her friend is a Mormon.
00:55:11 ►
And her friend says,
00:55:13 ►
if you want to have a meeting for your birthday
00:55:16 ►
and you have no medicine,
00:55:18 ►
so that means no birthday meeting for you,
00:55:22 ►
what are you going to do?
00:55:23 ►
He says, we’ll just pray with the water.
00:55:27 ►
Pray with the water.
00:55:30 ►
That’s what she said.
00:55:32 ►
She said that medicine, that water will be like a peyote.
00:55:38 ►
So, but we still need to have money to buy the medicine.
00:55:44 ►
Some people, they actually go to Texas to get medicine,
00:55:49 ►
but you’ve got to have papers.
00:55:52 ►
Of course.
00:55:53 ►
To travel, you’ve got to have money.
00:55:55 ►
You’ve got to have money for the medicine.
00:55:56 ►
Some people, they pitch them,
00:55:58 ►
I’ll put in this much, you know, when you get back.
00:56:01 ►
I’ll give you whatever you think, you know.
00:56:05 ►
Is peyote easy to grow? Can you?
00:56:09 ►
Maybe, maybe in Texas, yeah.
00:56:12 ►
But not in Arizona where you are?
00:56:14 ►
I think you can do it if you have a greenhouse,
00:56:18 ►
but I am not too sure if that’s legal or, you know.
00:56:28 ►
But somebody will have an answer to that.
00:56:37 ►
Okay, well, I have a, maybe a controversial question, perhaps. So for those people who are not part of the Native American church, but who feel called to work with the peyote, what advice would
00:56:51 ►
you give those people in terms of how to approach the peyote?
00:56:56 ►
Because not everyone, you know, in other words, I know that the North American Native American church
00:57:05 ►
does allow non-Native Americans into their ceremony.
00:57:10 ►
But other, of course, Native American churches do not,
00:57:16 ►
if I’m understanding this.
00:57:17 ►
And so for those non-Natives who do wish to work with the peyote,
00:57:25 ►
what advice would you give them?
00:57:28 ►
Okay.
00:57:28 ►
Okay.
00:57:30 ►
I had a couple get after me
00:57:36 ►
because I had a non-native that came to my place for a pair done
00:57:44 ►
because I invited them, because I trust them.
00:57:49 ►
Okay, they said, I shouldn’t do that.
00:57:53 ►
That’s not right.
00:57:55 ►
I said, okay.
00:57:57 ►
I said, but I have grandkids that are half white.
00:58:01 ►
Are you telling me that if I do a prayer for my grandkids I only do half?
00:58:08 ►
What are you saying?
00:58:09 ►
Tell me.
00:58:12 ►
I never got an answer.
00:58:15 ►
They left.
00:58:19 ►
And I don’t think that’s right.
00:58:31 ►
I went to a conference,
00:58:34 ►
Native American conference that they have in Texas.
00:58:37 ►
That’s what was brought up.
00:58:40 ►
There’s a TPO there.
00:58:42 ►
We want all the Native people in there.
00:58:44 ►
There’s another people where all the white can’t go in, or Mexican. And I said, what are you guys saying? We’re in
00:58:51 ►
Texas. We’re not on the reservation. This is their land. I said, so the people that came from, there’s a lot of people there.
00:59:12 ►
I said, all the people that came from New York, they can’t get in?
00:59:15 ►
It’s their money that brought us here.
00:59:17 ►
It’s their food we’re going to eat.
00:59:20 ►
You know, the Mexican people here are the ones that brought the medicine.
00:59:26 ►
And they want to segregate them.
00:59:28 ►
That’s right.
00:59:28 ►
And what was the response?
00:59:30 ►
All human beings, they have a heart.
00:59:32 ►
I have one.
00:59:34 ►
You’ve got one.
00:59:35 ►
The medicine’s got a heart.
00:59:37 ►
That medicine is for all 500 people.
00:59:43 ►
And then I said, we dress like white, we speak their language,
00:59:49 ►
so if you want this law to be just for you, write it in Navajo.
00:59:56 ►
Don’t use English.
00:59:58 ►
Don’t speak English.
01:00:00 ►
Don’t eat their food.
01:00:02 ►
Don’t dress like them.
01:00:09 ►
If you can be like that. what was their response to that they they i just walked out and my husband’s going to be quiet i said i have to say something
01:00:18 ►
you know i have to say something you know you You can’t treat people like this.
01:00:28 ►
Right, no matter what color they are.
01:00:30 ►
No matter what color.
01:00:32 ►
It’s preposterous.
01:00:35 ►
And it’s not right.
01:00:38 ►
Did the medicine say that to them, so we can be like that?
01:00:52 ►
say that to them so we can be like that. The medicine came to us with no paper. Now we’re allowed to have paper. In a way it’s good because if I want to come out here I can bring
01:00:59 ►
my gourd box, my feathers, some medicine, paper, shingles, you know, it’s okay. Yeah, yeah.
01:01:14 ►
So when I went to Mexico, I put my gourd box right on my lap and my paper.
01:01:18 ►
See, in Mexico, if I take anything across, it’s illegal.
01:01:19 ►
Ah.
01:01:25 ►
So I told the people at the crossing,
01:01:30 ►
I said, this is my medicine box, my feathers.
01:01:33 ►
If you want to open it, go ahead. I said, oh no, we trust you.
01:01:37 ►
I said, I’m going to go to your land, I’m going to pray there.
01:01:41 ►
Go ahead, go ahead.
01:01:45 ►
I was at an airport in Las Vegas.
01:01:48 ►
I had my medicine box.
01:01:50 ►
I told them, I said,
01:01:53 ►
you can open it and look in it.
01:01:55 ►
They said, no.
01:01:57 ►
Then it goes through.
01:01:59 ►
I think you command respect, Rose.
01:02:03 ►
And I think it is your spirit.
01:02:06 ►
You stand very strong in your spirit.
01:02:09 ►
You stand very strong in your wisdom.
01:02:13 ►
So coming back into Mexico,
01:02:16 ►
they said, we’re not going to bother with your medicine box.
01:02:20 ►
We’re not going to ask you to open it.
01:02:21 ►
But we’re going to ask you, are you bringing back Coke, cheese?
01:02:27 ►
No, I would want to, but I ate a lot before I came across.
01:02:34 ►
Yes, so just for me, it’s not right.
01:02:40 ►
Mm-hmm.
01:02:42 ►
You know, it’s not right for my grandchild to be treated like that because she’s half white
01:02:49 ►
and my late my brother’s kids are half white i’m not gonna allow that
01:02:57 ►
you know if you can tell it like that go back to your home and talk like that but not in my home i have kids
01:03:07 ►
that are half black kids are half mexican half white you know patchy you know i have all kind
01:03:15 ►
of tribe in my family and i am gonna pray for them yeah the right way oh The good way. Thank you.
01:03:28 ►
What you tell me, you can do that in your own home.
01:03:31 ►
Maybe that’s the way you were taught.
01:03:38 ►
I taught myself not to be that way.
01:03:44 ►
So that was a lesson to myself that I was able to say that. I didn’t know I was going to say that.
01:03:48 ►
Yes, well, this is what I’m saying.
01:03:50 ►
This very strong spirit that you carry is, I think, exactly what is needed right now.
01:04:01 ►
Because I think things are just getting worse than than ever and i think it is so interesting
01:04:07 ►
what you shared about the peyote essentially receding not making itself so available saying
01:04:16 ►
look there is you know because of course we can say well it’s been over harvested and and of course
01:04:21 ►
it has been uh in many areas from what I understand.
01:04:26 ►
And yet, as you say, there is tremendous discord among the, uh, people within the Native American
01:04:35 ►
church. And, uh, and so, and, and other, it sounds like, you know, tribes that work with this.
01:04:43 ►
and other, it sounds like, you know, tribes that work with this.
01:04:50 ►
And it’s almost as if the medicine is calling us back to harmony.
01:05:06 ►
And then so here you are, this native great-grandmother with all of this life experience and this very good and strong heart,
01:05:11 ►
saying, listen, I’m going to tell you exactly how I see it, and there’s right and wrong, and the way you guys are doing this is wrong.
01:05:16 ►
This is not how you, this is not how we treat each other.
01:05:21 ►
So sometimes you have to bring these things up,
01:05:31 ►
of how to treat each other you know in a prayer meeting how to take care of that medicine how we can’t always do certain things the way we want to
01:05:39 ►
do in a prayer there’s time to really attention, there’s a time to really sit up
01:05:45 ►
when the water coming in
01:05:47 ►
or the medicine
01:05:48 ►
you can’t really sleep
01:05:52 ►
in there
01:05:52 ►
I know one person
01:05:55 ►
says
01:05:56 ►
I’m just coming out from rehab
01:05:59 ►
you know
01:06:00 ►
but why did you come
01:06:04 ►
he says I wanted to see what it’s like
01:06:06 ►
okay did you come to watch
01:06:10 ►
or come to participate
01:06:12 ►
I said I think I came
01:06:14 ►
to watch
01:06:14 ►
I said you know what
01:06:16 ►
that’s not the right way to be here
01:06:19 ►
you want to watch
01:06:21 ►
go to a dance and watch
01:06:23 ►
this is a prayer.
01:06:26 ►
You’re in a circle.
01:06:28 ►
You can sit up and pray.
01:06:30 ►
You’re young, you know.
01:06:32 ►
Maybe it will help you.
01:06:34 ►
This is where you can get rehab.
01:06:36 ►
It’s where you get therapy.
01:06:38 ►
Where you get counseling.
01:06:39 ►
It’s where you get love, too.
01:06:42 ►
So if you want to get help, I suggest you set up.
01:06:46 ►
Ah, yes.
01:06:47 ►
Set up and pray for yourself.
01:06:51 ►
Eat the medicine, pray.
01:06:55 ►
So it comes around to those things
01:06:58 ►
where you sometimes have to say something.
01:07:02 ►
Because if we don’t take care of the fire and the medicine, the water,
01:07:08 ►
what if the police comes in and get everybody arrested?
01:07:13 ►
And most of the time, a lot of people,
01:07:15 ►
especially the non-native, they don’t have papers.
01:07:21 ►
Right.
01:07:22 ►
So with that in mind, we have to protect everything, everybody in
01:07:28 ►
a prayer. So I want to go back to my earlier question just to clarify. So if there are
01:07:38 ►
non-Native people and they just want to do peyote in the privacy of their own home,
01:07:46 ►
they don’t have access, shall we say, to a Native American church,
01:07:51 ►
would you encourage them to incorporate some kind of ritual
01:07:57 ►
into that experience for themselves,
01:08:00 ►
rather than just sort of hanging out on the sofa and eating peyote if something is
01:08:07 ►
gonna be like that like you know done that way you know again you know those are the choice
01:08:14 ►
of how you want to pray how you want to uh use it um i really can’t say anything on that.
01:08:26 ►
Make sure you have witness.
01:08:31 ►
Make sure you have at least somebody there that knows more
01:08:35 ►
so you have a teaching as you go about it.
01:08:41 ►
But just to take it in your home and just eat it and you know get that feeling uh no
01:08:49 ►
you know if it’s if you want help and want to do it in your own private home you know
01:09:04 ►
You know, that’s one way.
01:09:10 ►
You know, sometimes when we have problems at home,
01:09:18 ►
we just put our charcoal down, put the instrument down, and we just pray.
01:09:22 ►
If we have medicine, we’ll have some medicine too.
01:09:25 ►
Or we’ll just smoke, put cedar down, and that helps.
01:09:31 ►
A cedar, I meant to ask you about that.
01:09:36 ►
So there is a cedar person in the ceremony as well,
01:09:39 ►
and so they’re working with the cedar tree, the cedar,
01:09:43 ►
as a way to cleanse the area?
01:09:47 ►
Okay, you know, probably go to a cedar tree.
01:09:53 ►
Again, you know, that’s where prayer comes in.
01:09:55 ►
You have to pray.
01:09:58 ►
You just don’t run out there and start gathering up cedar.
01:10:03 ►
You have to pray because that’s part of who we live with.
01:10:09 ►
So they give up themselves.
01:10:12 ►
You know, I’m going to take you home.
01:10:14 ►
I’m going to use you to pray with, you know, just like that animal.
01:10:20 ►
You want to go hunting.
01:10:22 ►
I know the Wacholis, they go to the mountain, they bring a deer back.
01:10:29 ►
I know one place that had a sun dance and they went out to the mountain.
01:10:36 ►
They actually pray out there to the deer.
01:10:39 ►
The meat was done, they prayed to the meat.
01:10:51 ►
done, they prayed to the maid. So yeah, you go out there and pick and let it dry and fix it and then you pray with it. The same thing with the medicine, you go out there to get
01:10:58 ►
medicine, you have to do a prayer. Just as soon as you get in your vehicle, you know, you pray.
01:11:11 ►
Yes, I’m getting this, that everything is a prayer.
01:11:15 ►
Everything you do is going to be a prayer.
01:11:18 ►
Some people say that, oh, you’re not actually praying.
01:11:21 ►
But if you look at your children and they’re there to eat
01:11:26 ►
that’s a prayer you know you see the food that’s put before you you know be thankful
01:11:33 ►
you know just looking at it you know that’s a prayer being aware like you know, whatever you have, you got it through prayer.
01:11:47 ►
Got it through, you know, hard work.
01:11:57 ►
And I know when my late husband died, his ex wanted everything.
01:11:59 ►
And court.
01:12:08 ►
She wanted cars, she wanted a mobile home, she wanted money. money but you know what i was calm about it i said judge can i speak she says go ahead she was sitting right there i said you know what
01:12:17 ►
whatever i had i sat up all night and cried just so I could have a home, a vehicle.
01:12:27 ►
I said, you know what, that’s what you should do.
01:12:31 ►
Pray.
01:12:32 ►
Pray for whatever you want.
01:12:36 ►
Pray with your husband and your children.
01:12:39 ►
And if you do it right, you’ll get a home.
01:12:41 ►
But this is my home.
01:12:43 ►
I’m going to hang on to it because I prayed for it
01:12:47 ►
all night it can happen to you too in fact I’ll help you I’ll pray for you that you will have a someday. That was it. Judgment gave me lifetime restriction so she can’t come near me. I wasn’t
01:13:16 ►
mad at her. I wasn’t angry with her. I said I was also a faithful wife. I was a good mother, a good wife to him.
01:13:28 ►
Cooked his food, took care of him.
01:13:31 ►
When he wants to argue, I say, wait, I’m busy.
01:13:36 ►
I’ll come back and we’ll argue later.
01:13:39 ►
I go back, okay, I’m here, I’m ready.
01:13:43 ►
Oh, got all about it.
01:13:47 ►
So these were lessons.
01:13:49 ►
It wasn’t something, oh, I can’t do it, you know, it’s my home, you know.
01:13:55 ►
You have to be careful of what you say.
01:14:01 ►
Yeah, I was mad, you know, but I had to think first
01:14:06 ►
you know
01:14:08 ►
she has a heart
01:14:11 ►
she wants a home but she can’t have mine
01:14:13 ►
what I work for
01:14:14 ►
she can’t have it
01:14:16 ►
so
01:14:17 ►
I still hope that you know
01:14:20 ►
wherever she is
01:14:23 ►
that you know she has she is, that, you know, she has something.
01:14:26 ►
Rose, your wisdom is so powerful and so needed today.
01:14:34 ►
And I want to thank you so very much for taking this time out of your schedule to sit down
01:14:42 ►
with me and share.
01:14:44 ►
And I know there are going to be a lot of people
01:14:46 ►
who will be very grateful for what you have shared for this good wisdom.
01:14:55 ►
You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon, where people are changing their lives one
01:15:00 ►
thought at a time.
01:15:03 ►
Well, I have to admit that after listening to Grandma Rose,
01:15:07 ►
I am now sorry to have passed up on the opportunities
01:15:10 ►
that I had to participate in a traditional peyote meeting.
01:15:14 ►
I’m sure that it would have been very beneficial for me.
01:15:17 ►
However, unless you’re raising your own peyote,
01:15:20 ►
it still doesn’t seem right for us Caucasians
01:15:23 ►
to harvest that plant to near extinction,
01:15:25 ►
thus making it unavailable to the indigenous people to whom it’s been a part of their culture for so long.
01:15:32 ►
And speaking of so long, while these podcasts haven’t the pedigree of ancient usage,
01:15:39 ►
well, today’s podcast marks the last podcast of my 11th year in producing these talks from the Psychedelic Salon.
01:15:46 ►
This coming Thursday, March 17th, will mark the beginning of my 12th year in sending these talks your way.
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And to celebrate that event, I’m going to post another talk this week,
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on Thursday actually, from the Terrence McKenna series that we’ve been listening to lately.
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So stay tuned.
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Now, in continuing with what I began
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last week, I thought that I’d read some of the headlines from stories that I’ve posted in my
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Flipboard magazine. And in case you aren’t aware of Flipboard, it’s mainly an app that you can use
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on your phone or tablet to easily congregate news stories that may be of interest for you.
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And in fact, it can also be accessed directly on your computer via Flipboard.com. Transcription by CastingWords heroin addiction. Aquaponics, how to grow cannabis using fish for $35. The energy gobbling truth
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about legal cannabis that can’t be ignored. Five ways the war on drugs is waged against women.
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Top U.S. international drug official signals green light for countries to decriminalize.
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Men of color on what it’s like getting busted for weed in today’s New York City.
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Six college students arrested for allegedly operating ecstasy ring.
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Analysis of Arrowood shows weed is not a gateway drug after all.
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Marijuana outsold alcohol in Aspen, Colorado during two months in 2015.
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Alcohol in Aspen, Colorado during two months in 2015.
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Racial disparity persists in Philadelphia marijuana arrests after decriminalization.
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Could marijuana help kids with cancer? What is it like to have your severe depression treated with a hallucinogenic drug?
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Is it time for football to reconsider marijuana?
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80-year-old marijuana dealer in U.S. faces sentencing in large business.
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Israel, the spark-up nation for medical marijuana investing.
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The five biggest marijuana-consuming countries in the Western Hemisphere.
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And lawyer offers five facts to know before starting a marijuana business.
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There were more stories that I posted there during the past week,
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but, well, that’ll give you a little taste for what’s going on in the mainstream media
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when it comes to cannabis and other psychoactive substances.
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And before I go, I also want to mention one other magazine.
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It’s the Cannabis Nurses Magazine and is published by the Cannabis Nurses Association.
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This is an international association of medical professionals, nurses to be exact,
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and is something that you may want to look into if you’re a nurse or studying to become one.
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Even if you aren’t a nurse, I think that you’re going to find some truly interesting stories
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in this very professional and well-produced magazine.
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In addition to the main articles in the most recent edition, Thank you. That’s all one long word.
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And there you will even find a digital edition,
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as well as information on how to subscribe to their print edition.
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To tell you the truth, when my wife came home from a recent meeting of the local chapter and showed me their January-February magazine,
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well, I was really blown away.
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There’s really a wealth of new information that they’re making available to us,
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and I highly recommend that you check it out.
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And for now, this is Lorenzo, signing off from Cyberdelic Space.
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Be well, my friends.