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009 - Waking Up from the American Dream

Jun 24, 2005, 50 min read

Program Notes

Guest speaker: Michael Brownstein

michaelbrownstein.jpg

A talk by Michael Brownstein at Burning Man 2004.

Michael Brownstein is the author of nine books of poetry and three novels:The Touch, Country Cousins, Self-Reliance: A Novel.

His most recent book,World on Fire, is a prophetic, impassioned examination of corporate globalization. A personal book, World on Fire moves back and forth between the present and the post-apocalyptic future. Michael has read from it on many radio programs and at conferences and universities here and abroad.

Michael is also involved in using psychoactive substances to provide the vision to see us through the end times. His main concern now is not blaming and accusing, but waking up.

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Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Greetings from cyberdelic space.

00:00:22 ►

I’m Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:26 ►

Today we’re going to hear from poet, novelist, and all-around renaissance man, Michael Brownstein.

00:00:32 ►

Now if you’re not familiar with Michael, probably the best place to begin might be with his book, World on Fire,

00:00:38 ►

which is really a major anti-globalization manifesto.

00:00:43 ►

Author of Fast Food Nation, Eric Schlosser, said this about

00:00:46 ►

World on Fire. Bold and ambitious, World on Fire engages the great issues of the day,

00:00:54 ►

mixing the personal with the political, demanding attention be paid, continuing in the tradition

00:01:00 ►

of Whitman, Ginsburg, and Pound. Here is a howl for the 21st century.

00:01:07 ►

When I read World on Fire the first time myself,

00:01:09 ►

I hadn’t yet heard Eric’s comments,

00:01:11 ►

but I’m in complete agreement with him.

00:01:14 ►

I can still remember reading that first few pages

00:01:17 ►

and thinking, gosh, this guy has moved

00:01:19 ►

Ginsberg’s howl really up a notch or two.

00:01:23 ►

I think almost everybody’s at least heard the opening lines

00:01:26 ►

from Howell where he ominously begins, I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed

00:01:32 ►

by madness. And I guess some historians even try to claim that Ginsburg reading of Howell

00:01:39 ►

that October night, 1955, is what actually kicked off the beat generation, and of course eventually

00:01:46 ►

evolved into the counterculture of the 60s.

00:01:50 ►

Of course, there was a lot more that went into the creating of the beats than just one

00:01:55 ►

poetry reading, but that event really now has sort of assumed the aura of the historical

00:02:01 ►

genesis of the 60s, which, of course, are ancient history today

00:02:05 ►

because of the speed at which we’re moving.

00:02:08 ►

This is not only a new century, it’s a new millennium.

00:02:12 ►

And if there is to be a howl that sets the tone for this millennium,

00:02:16 ►

I think it could well be Michael Brownstein’s World on Fire.

00:02:20 ►

So let’s transport ourselves back to the playa

00:02:23 ►

at the Burning Man Festival in 2004, and we’ll join Michael, I’m sorry to say, passage from World on Fire that he reads at the beginning of this talk

00:02:47 ►

actually begins on page 44 of his book, if you want to follow along.

00:02:53 ►

The passage Michael’s reading from begins with him explaining

00:02:56 ►

that he’s traveled deep into the Amazon jungle to partake of ayahuasca for the first time.

00:03:02 ►

And he’s now in that seemingly interminable time between two worlds

00:03:06 ►

where he’s already ingested the ayahuasca

00:03:09 ►

and is now just sitting there waiting for it to take hold.

00:03:13 ►

So let’s join Michael and listen to him describe his experiences

00:03:17 ►

and listen closely to the ending of this reading

00:03:20 ►

where he ends with a wonderful description of our tribe.

00:03:24 ►

where he ends with a wonderful description of our tribe.

00:03:28 ►

Why am I here?

00:03:30 ►

Whatever possessed me to do this?

00:03:32 ►

Why aren’t I safe at home?

00:03:35 ►

Then comes the shift in atmospheric pressure,

00:03:37 ►

a subtle alteration at first.

00:03:40 ►

Wait, maybe I’m changing my mind about this.

00:03:41 ►

Maybe I’ll just get off here.

00:03:42 ►

Ha, ha, ha.

00:03:44 ►

Ha, ha, ha.

00:03:45 ►

Great tsunami.

00:03:49 ►

Tidal wave approaching with such force my body quakes in trepidation.

00:03:54 ►

I’m lying in the dark on a mattress surrounded by a dozen or so fellow travelers.

00:03:56 ►

I can hear moaning and nervous laughter.

00:03:58 ►

Then I’m on my own.

00:04:03 ►

Uneasy anticipation suddenly gives way to an explosion of visions.

00:04:11 ►

Breathtaking colors. Hypnotic patterns evolving and devolving, bursting without warning into a panoply of gesticulating figures.

00:04:12 ►

Are they people?

00:04:14 ►

Cartoon entities?

00:04:15 ►

Fairy folk?

00:04:16 ►

Demons?

00:04:20 ►

Yes, dammit, they’re grimacing, pulsating demons.

00:04:24 ►

Any second now they’re going to open their jaws and gobble me up.

00:04:25 ►

Nowhere to run. Nowhere to hide. Disabling fear, they’re going to open their jaws and gobble me up. Nowhere to run,

00:04:32 ►

nowhere to hide. Disabling fear, paralyzing, suffocating. But then an extraordinary relationship develops between my emotional state and the antics of these figures. I realize that it’s

00:04:38 ►

my fear which allows them to become ferocious. Loss of breath makes them threatening. As soon as my attention

00:04:46 ►

dissolves, they erupt in laughter. This titanic 3D movie which is invading me from outside,

00:04:53 ►

if I’m terrified, the demons are inescapable. But if I’m brave enough to breathe fully and

00:04:58 ►

calmly, they mutate, becoming puckish, playful, manageable. Then something further reveals itself.

00:05:06 ►

Several Indians appear, surrounded by

00:05:08 ►

light rays spraying out in all directions.

00:05:10 ►

I find myself in silent communion

00:05:12 ►

with one man in particular.

00:05:14 ►

As soon as we become aware of each other,

00:05:15 ►

I’m overwhelmed with sadness

00:05:17 ►

at the suffering of the planet.

00:05:20 ►

End times played out in monstrous

00:05:22 ►

unconsciousness. People seemingly

00:05:29 ►

entranced as the consequences of their actions burn away everything around them.

00:05:34 ►

Greed, violence, diseased intentions, stupidity, punching holes right through life.

00:05:38 ►

I approach this man in his dusty, tattered poncho.

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I don’t need words to convey my heartache.

00:05:45 ►

Silently I ask him, the world’s being trashed, destroyed. What can I do?

00:05:48 ►

He responds by looking straight at me,

00:05:50 ►

holding my glance, not letting go.

00:05:52 ►

My mind stops.

00:05:53 ►

He floats toward me,

00:05:54 ►

his eyes pulsating,

00:05:56 ►

throwing off intense heat.

00:05:58 ►

Hyperventilating,

00:05:59 ►

fighting to maintain composure,

00:06:00 ►

I begin to panic,

00:06:02 ►

but then I remember to breathe. I force air through my stiffened lungs,

00:06:05 ►

slowly and deeply, in and out, in and out. I give up trying to understand. His eyes fill with compassion. Their

00:06:14 ►

heat turns to warmth, comforting and reassuring me. I feel safe enough to weep for myself, for

00:06:21 ►

everyone I’ve ever loved and hated, for all of us on this earth who are slugging it out and can’t find our way. Now he’s very close to me. His eyes are enormous.

00:06:30 ►

I try to focus on both but can take in only one of them. I look into its pupil and in

00:06:36 ►

that black space I see a globe turning and turning, rolling through time. I watch, dumbfounded, as world ages come and go,

00:06:46 ►

blue, green, white, blue, green, white.

00:06:50 ►

Then tiny beads of red appear,

00:06:52 ►

their light rich and clear as rubies.

00:06:54 ►

For the longest time they slowly expand.

00:06:57 ►

But as they merge into large irregular shapes

00:07:00 ►

covering more and more of the earth’s surface,

00:07:01 ►

the quality of their color changes to a sickly grayish orange, dull and greasy.

00:07:06 ►

Oh my God, I moan like a plague.

00:07:10 ►

At the very moment I say this, the ball loses all of its color, becoming transparent.

00:07:15 ►

It continues to spin, solid rock crystal, empty in essence, luminous in nature, refracting whatever I project into it.

00:07:28 ►

Ego’s fear-based agendas are not innate.

00:07:34 ►

Control and perpetuity, not innate. What’s been given away can be taken back. We share the same planet. We share a common destiny. As I start to come down, I’m aware of the

00:07:41 ►

men and women around me, my fellow travelers huddled in their blankets, giggling and whispering.

00:07:45 ►

I have such affection for them.

00:07:47 ►

I can’t wait to talk to them, to look them in the eye.

00:07:51 ►

I inhale and exhale, feeling an indescribable pride in my physical being.

00:07:56 ►

Outrageous how right it is to be alive.

00:07:59 ►

I’ve been flat on my back, legs splayed for what seems like days,

00:08:02 ►

but now I raise my knees and feel the weight of my feet on the ground.

00:08:06 ►

Nothing, no matter how pernicious, will take away that strength, that connection to the earth.

00:08:12 ►

And now, another question.

00:08:15 ►

Great Liana emerging from the jungle floor.

00:08:18 ►

How to explain the magical embrace between my chemistry and yours?

00:08:24 ►

Why ayahuasca and so many more teaching plants in the Amazon basin?

00:08:29 ►

Why the relative scarcity of psychoactive substances in the old world?

00:08:34 ►

Then I remember that in prehistory’s global migration,

00:08:38 ►

South America was the final destination,

00:08:41 ►

the Amazon basically the end of the line,

00:08:43 ►

and there in the trackless

00:08:45 ►

jungle, patiently waiting. So I sense a vast intelligence of which I am a part, witnessing

00:08:52 ►

in real time empire’s conflagration, seeing it, tasting it, flinching from nothing, afraid

00:08:59 ►

of nothing, emerald goddess of the Amazon, heal me, mi corazon The next morning, sharing our experiences in a circle

00:09:08 ►

We’re amazed to discover that at some point during the night

00:09:11 ►

Everyone saw the globe turning

00:09:12 ►

Everyone saw the end times hit

00:09:15 ►

Everyone understood why

00:09:17 ►

Consensus reality is insubstantial

00:09:20 ►

It’s made of images and beliefs

00:09:22 ►

The instant we change them, they vanish

00:09:24 ►

The instant we change them, they vanish.

00:09:28 ►

The instant we change them, a new world appears.

00:09:31 ►

Fire meaning purification, cleansing, renewal.

00:09:35 ►

Life renewing itself and our individual selves,

00:09:39 ►

our names in the phone book are following, like it or not, ready or not.

00:09:42 ►

We’ve restricted consciousness to individual egos,

00:09:44 ►

but consciousness has no restrictions.

00:09:45 ►

Human brains don’t make it.

00:09:47 ►

A larger force is at play.

00:09:49 ►

The view we hold now no longer serves us.

00:09:52 ►

Everything going up in flames.

00:09:54 ►

Everything purified, renewed.

00:09:59 ►

Global change for the good is inevitable.

00:10:01 ►

Competition is actually contained within a larger circle of bonding and cooperation,

00:10:06 ►

the way communities operated before empire and beyond the reach of empire continue to operate.

00:10:12 ►

Global change devouring a doomed test-tomb mutant, whether early this morning or sometime next week.

00:10:20 ►

So, thank you.

00:10:30 ►

I wonder if I suppose the classical way to do this is for me to just sort of continue on and

00:10:35 ►

then have this question and answer at the end. But I thought I would break it up a little bit

00:10:39 ►

if anybody wants to share anything about Ayahuasca now. It would be nice. Yeah.

00:10:43 ►

If anybody wants to share anything about ayahuasca now, it would be nice, yeah.

00:10:45 ►

Thanks.

00:10:50 ►

Maybe ten years ago I was taking a trip up to the mountains with some friends,

00:10:52 ►

and we were tripping.

00:10:59 ►

And at one point I just stopped, and this vision of a sphere came rolling towards me.

00:11:04 ►

And I could see all the different connections that made it, you know thought that came was a circle is perfect, a sphere is perfection.

00:11:10 ►

And then after that thought came to me, the sphere just dissolved.

00:11:17 ►

And at that point, the feeling came to me that a sphere is perfect in our physical world,

00:11:25 ►

but maybe perfection is when something doesn’t exist,

00:11:30 ►

because once something exists, there’s judgment placed upon it.

00:11:34 ►

It’s too small, too hot, too cold, you name it.

00:11:37 ►

And I’ve seen spheres in so many other things,

00:11:40 ►

like even movies like Contact, where it’s spinning,

00:11:44 ►

and she’s able to travel through time and space with this sphere.

00:11:49 ►

And there’s, I mean, you have drum circles and you have circles of people and circles of love.

00:11:53 ►

And it just, like, when you were speaking, it just reminded me of that experience I had a long time ago.

00:11:58 ►

Right.

00:11:58 ►

Well, yeah, that’s nice.

00:12:00 ►

The globe spinning in and of itself, of course, is like a dream.

00:12:08 ►

So there again, it’s dependent on which dream we want to have,

00:12:16 ►

what dream we want to be dreaming on this planet.

00:12:21 ►

We as people all together.

00:12:24 ►

I mean, the Earth is just going around and around and around like this.

00:12:27 ►

And basically what we have is a situation where on an individual level,

00:12:36 ►

especially on a cultural level, you know, we basically have tapes,

00:12:39 ►

software installed in our minds by our upbringing, by our culture and so on.

00:12:47 ►

And I think everybody here really is happy to change the tapes that are running the American dream

00:12:55 ►

because it’s not working, it’s not fun.

00:13:02 ►

And, you know, there are many things one can say about it,

00:13:08 ►

and I think we all sort of know what that’s about.

00:13:12 ►

But it’s very important to get this thing in our heads that it’s like,

00:13:17 ►

who’s American dream, or is it the dream of some kind of strange mutation of fundamentalism

00:13:31 ►

and hatred of the body and work ethic and fear?

00:13:39 ►

It’s basically a fear-driven engine that’s running this country.

00:13:43 ►

So fear, of course, eventually means, or already means, especially since 9-11, it means paranoia.

00:13:53 ►

And the representative of this culture thinks that we can trick our fear through,

00:14:02 ►

we can trump trumpet through technology.

00:14:06 ►

But it’s not the case.

00:14:08 ►

I mean, you know, biometrics, for example, because we’re afraid we don’t know who other people are,

00:14:13 ►

you know, or the powers that be don’t know who they can control, how they can identify people and so on.

00:14:20 ►

So they come up with these technologies which actually simply of course

00:14:26 ►

reinforce the distance between people is that like you were talking about the the beating of the oil

00:14:33 ►

wells yeah and for what um here we have a sphere that we’re putting holes into and it’s just like

00:14:41 ►

the more you have the more you need to take care of what you have

00:14:46 ►

and this and that you know and like just getting back down to the basics you know are you are you

00:14:51 ►

a forest tribe are you an ocean tribe you know just getting rid of all the excess to get back to

00:14:58 ►

starting out because we are kind of running out of what we’ve got. I mean, the really interesting thing is that this culture is like a ravening beast, and that’s really big.

00:15:09 ►

And at the same time, it’s true that we can transform our lives and life on the planet through the power of our intention.

00:15:19 ►

Right?

00:15:20 ►

Because as I said in there, I mean, consensus reality is made up of images and beliefs.

00:15:29 ►

Where the hell that section went?

00:15:32 ►

Consensus reality is made up of images and beliefs.

00:15:36 ►

It’s insubstantial.

00:15:37 ►

The instant we change them, they vanish.

00:15:39 ►

The instant we change them, a new world appears.

00:15:41 ►

And that’s what the fear is, the unspoken fear of the, and I want to and also

00:15:48 ►

actually do have compassion for a lot of the people who are swallowed up by this dark vision that we’re

00:15:54 ►

kind of working our way out of, right? But the fear underneath it is their, you know, unspoken sense also that basically all these realities,

00:16:12 ►

the American dream that we have going, whatever reality it is, it’s arbitrary.

00:16:18 ►

You know, from the point of view of the universe, it’s arbitrary.

00:16:21 ►

These are all these relative programs that have been installed in people’s minds. And I think that the people who are sort of demonically

00:16:30 ►

swallowed up by their vision of fear and greed and so on, they know that. I mean, that’s

00:16:36 ►

why magical substances are illegal. Why else would they be illegal? They’re not, you know,

00:16:42 ►

there’s no other reason. I mean, again, I think most of us, we know that fact.

00:16:48 ►

But what it says, though, is that, again, there’s an element of fear involved.

00:16:56 ►

And just the way that they are using biometrics, for example,

00:16:59 ►

to try and identify people that they are afraid of,

00:17:04 ►

and it simply reinforces the distance and creates more sort of strangeness.

00:17:09 ►

Same thing holds true with the laws and attitudes towards plant spirits.

00:17:16 ►

Because, you know, the more they try to do that, the more we create something like this.

00:17:29 ►

You know, we’re in a, as a culture, we’re in a really dark place.

00:17:35 ►

But as I was telling my friend Daniel, you know, as I mentioned to several people,

00:17:40 ►

I mean, I’m older than I look, you know.

00:17:44 ►

So I was around in the 50s.

00:17:46 ►

I mean, I was a little kid, but I was around then.

00:17:48 ►

And I remember how totally locked down and airless that realm was.

00:18:02 ►

So that even though now we have this sense of, you know, what we’re doing to the planet,

00:18:07 ►

what we’re doing to resources, what we’re doing to the aquifers, this and that and the other thing,

00:18:11 ►

genetically modified organisms, all that sort of thing,

00:18:14 ►

what’s going on now and the armaments and all that.

00:18:17 ►

Nevertheless, when I compare it in my mind to the world in the 50s,

00:18:21 ►

I mean, I see this tremendous awakening, right, on every level.

00:18:27 ►

I mean, whether it’s health food or yoga or, you know, some sense of sexual freedom, openness,

00:18:34 ►

there’s just so much more going on now.

00:18:37 ►

You can’t even compare it.

00:18:39 ►

It’s like the dark, it was the dark ages then, you know.

00:18:42 ►

So with a few pioneers, you know, Buckminster Fuller, these people

00:18:46 ►

like Buckminster Fuller with a dome here, and Alan Watts or whoever all, I mean, you

00:18:52 ►

had these pioneers and a lot of them sort of paid their dues, you know, with their lives

00:18:59 ►

in certain cases. But nevertheless, I mean, now there’s so much more going on.

00:19:08 ►

There’s so much more connection.

00:19:09 ►

There’s so much more of us, you know.

00:19:12 ►

So, and I think the plant spirits have, you know, have a lot to do with that.

00:19:21 ►

And I personally am especially connected to ayahuasca.

00:19:28 ►

I feel it’s my main teacher plant.

00:19:32 ►

And so, I don’t know.

00:19:36 ►

Again, I was wondering if anyone had any questions or comments about that plant in particular.

00:19:42 ►

We’ve got back here in the corner.

00:19:44 ►

You may have covered this

00:19:46 ►

and i apologize if you did but um i was kind of wondering what your what your input on ayahuasca

00:19:51 ►

in a current western contextual view seeing as it’s becoming more and more prevalent i mean in

00:19:58 ►

groups like this i don’t know how many people have done ayahuasca let’s raise our hands i mean

00:20:03 ►

it’s you know so if i had asked that question even probably two, three years ago,

00:20:08 ►

you probably wouldn’t have gotten that response.

00:20:09 ►

And I’m just curious as to how you feel that spread is going to manifest.

00:20:14 ►

Yeah, that’s an interesting question.

00:20:16 ►

You know, the fact of the matter is that I personally, again,

00:20:21 ►

am really interested in taking substances in a more or less only in a sacred context.

00:20:29 ►

I mean, I’m not into doing it so much for party time,

00:20:31 ►

and I’m really not into too many synthetics, although I make certain exceptions, I guess.

00:20:38 ►

But with ayahuasca, it has become, even through the past decades, you know,

00:20:44 ►

it’s become quite popular in certain circles.

00:20:46 ►

I mean, I was first introduced to it in California, a circle of people led by someone who was trained by a shaman,

00:20:55 ►

who went down to Peru to be trained by a shaman and sort of get the brew down there.

00:21:01 ►

But he was just an American, and he didn’t sing Icaros. He didn’t sing

00:21:06 ►

the songs that the shamans sing. He had a boombox with New Age CDs and stuff, and some

00:21:16 ►

of what he did with that music was thrilling, breathtaking, because ayahuasca basically

00:21:21 ►

classically depends on the wings of song and the wings of music.

00:21:26 ►

That’s why the shamans sing.

00:21:28 ►

They carry you out there.

00:21:31 ►

Okay, so he did extraordinary things with that boombox.

00:21:35 ►

But then also there were times when I thought, you know, there’s this sound started coming through the boxes toward the end of the evening.

00:21:42 ►

I don’t want to be listening to this tape.

00:21:46 ►

You know what I mean?

00:21:55 ►

But I really feel that, you know, ayahuasca mushrooms, for me anyway, especially ayahuasca, definitely has an intelligence

00:21:58 ►

and definitely sees where it’s going with us.

00:22:05 ►

And to that degree, I think that what’s happening is positive, completely positive.

00:22:12 ►

And because especially with ayahuasca, there’s really almost a necessity to have it take place

00:22:17 ►

in a circle of people with someone leading it, basically the support or shamanic or healer role?

00:22:29 ►

In a singular context, like for myself, I’ve never done ayahuasca in a group.

00:22:35 ►

I’ve done it a half a dozen times.

00:22:36 ►

Most of the people that I know that have done ayahuasca do not have the benefit of traveling to South America

00:22:42 ►

or being in a place that has a qualified individual.

00:22:47 ►

And so I see a lot of young kids doing it without the sacred context,

00:22:52 ►

DXM mushrooms, let’s do some ayahuasca.

00:22:56 ►

And I guess that’s more my question is,

00:22:58 ►

if I were to run into a younger individual

00:23:01 ►

and I wanted to impart some sort of a bit of respect to that individual,

00:23:06 ►

give an ayahuasca.

00:23:07 ►

I can give them my experience, but beyond that, it becomes like almost the younger generation

00:23:12 ►

doesn’t seem to have the same type of context.

00:23:15 ►

Am I having a misperception there?

00:23:15 ►

Right.

00:23:16 ►

Well, I think to some degree, obviously, that’s true.

00:23:18 ►

You just said it about yourself and there are other, as you put it, the younger generation.

00:23:25 ►

We’ve got to remember, though, that the time, you know, is always moving,

00:23:28 ►

and the younger generation is going to be the – soon it’s going to be the middle-aged generation.

00:23:32 ►

And I think a lot of those people who, when they’re 22 or 24 or what, you know, are just trying –

00:23:39 ►

I don’t know how they’re getting it brewed either, but whatever it is they’re trying to –

00:23:43 ►

but I think eventually, again, I think that the intelligence of the plant is going to call them to,

00:23:48 ►

because there’s a very strong sacred context imparted as the message of the trip in the plant, you know, of the experience.

00:23:58 ►

And I think that’s going to, and I’ve seen it actually, I’ve seen, you know, young people show up wanting that experience, you know,

00:24:06 ►

very much wanting it. So I think that, all right, so maybe, you know, they’ll try it that way,

00:24:12 ►

but I think they’ll be pulled, they’ll be drawn into something more classical. I know it’s

00:24:20 ►

certainly changed my life. As I say, since 92, I mean, there was definitely a message being imparted

00:24:26 ►

and a spirit of the plant that was extremely visceral and upfront and interested, you know,

00:24:36 ►

interested in, I mean, sort of like really interested, like watching me,

00:24:41 ►

seeing what I was showing me, I should say also, right?

00:24:45 ►

And that’s very humbling, you know, to realize that there’s more than just us

00:24:51 ►

in our American dream and the trip that we have, whatever trips we have going,

00:24:58 ►

that this planet is full of spirits.

00:25:11 ►

You know, and they’ve been just like we try with the broom, with the playa dust, you know,

00:25:15 ►

get it all out of here, and then it comes seeping back in.

00:25:16 ►

The same thing with the spirits. You know, this past century, past couple centuries, you know, in fact, since the Enlightenment

00:25:23 ►

and the triumph of rationalism has been to move out all mystery,

00:25:27 ►

to move out all the ineffable, just get it out of the fucking way so we can get our program going.

00:25:32 ►

And they’re just out there.

00:25:35 ►

No matter how far you push them away, they’re right there, right?

00:25:39 ►

They’re right there looking on.

00:25:41 ►

They’re waiting.

00:25:41 ►

And they’re also not benign. I wouldn’t put it that way,

00:25:46 ►

but, you know, interested in our welfare.

00:25:51 ►

So was there anyone else who wanted to over here?

00:25:54 ►

I’m sure I would never get caught.

00:25:59 ►

I mean, no, I’m just, you know, if I ever tried it, I’m sure no CIA person would be there.

00:26:05 ►

But I’m just wondering, you know, because obviously it’s such a religious thing.

00:26:11 ►

Yeah.

00:26:12 ►

Well, the fact of the matter is that ayahuasca is illegal in this country.

00:26:17 ►

I believe it’s the, someone else may correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s not the individual substances.

00:26:24 ►

It’s not the vine.

00:26:33 ►

You know, ayahuasca is a combination of a dimethyltryptamine-containing plant and an MAO inhibitor.

00:26:38 ►

So even though it’s, like, totally natural, it’s, I mean.

00:26:42 ►

What I’m saying is that those plants are not illegal.

00:26:45 ►

What’s illegal is the end product.

00:26:46 ►

Okay.

00:26:46 ►

Yeah.

00:26:48 ►

But.

00:26:50 ►

Still.

00:26:50 ►

Okay.

00:26:52 ►

I just had to ask.

00:26:59 ►

Then I should mention, again, I’m sure some of you in here know about this term,

00:27:00 ►

ayahuasca analogs.

00:27:01 ►

Has anyone ever heard of that phrase? You know, ayahuasca analogs.

00:27:03 ►

has anyone ever heard of that phrase, you know, ayahuasca analogs?

00:27:13 ►

Jonathan Ott’s work, which is to say finding plants, like in this case mimosa and Syrian rue,

00:27:17 ►

which are not illegal, and so that that brew presumably is not illegal.

00:27:25 ►

And it has an almost identical effect as the ayahuasca and psychotria viridis plants.

00:27:28 ►

But again, illegality, I mean, we don’t have to worry.

00:27:31 ►

Illegality is part of that American dream. It’s part of those tapes.

00:27:33 ►

I mean, they can be changed. We can do it.

00:27:37 ►

It’s just a question of hanging in there.

00:27:44 ►

You know, when the mode of the music, the Plato’s thing, the mode of the music changes the walls of the city shake, right?

00:27:50 ►

Which is literally true, of course.

00:27:55 ►

It’s from Plato’s, I would assume from the Republic, I don’t know.

00:28:10 ►

I remember sitting in a backyard in the early 1960s in Ohio reading Plato and coming upon that quote. So when Tule Kupferberg was knee-high to a grasshopper.

00:28:18 ►

Okay, he asked if – shall I do it that way?

00:28:20 ►

Yeah, he asked – the person asked if I’ve had any experience smoking DMT and is it the same message?

00:28:27 ►

I mean, for me, I’m not, I’ve smoked DMT a couple times, but I don’t find it an agreeable experience.

00:28:36 ►

I don’t know what word to use exactly.

00:28:37 ►

It’s not my thing.

00:28:39 ►

I find it too harsh and, you know, it’s like a trap door opening.

00:28:44 ►

And then a couple minutes later, it’s over.

00:28:48 ►

I’m really, I feel really, and it’s not that I’m not challenged.

00:28:52 ►

I am challenged in my experiences with ayahuasca,

00:28:54 ►

but I feel at home in something that, you know, has more to do with this brew

00:29:02 ►

that’s been made for many, many thousands of years.

00:29:07 ►

You know, that’s another thing about the American Dream.

00:29:09 ►

The tapes we have installed in our head is that if you ever read people talking about, quote, unquote,

00:29:14 ►

primitive societies and so on, or if they’ll even talk about something like Ayahuasca,

00:29:18 ►

they’ll say, well, this plant has been in use for at least 1,000 years.

00:29:24 ►

Whereas in point of fact, it goes back tens of thousands of years of human use.

00:29:29 ►

Or even, let’s say, 100,000 years.

00:29:31 ►

We don’t know, you know.

00:29:33 ►

But it’s like the culture is afraid to think in those terms.

00:29:38 ►

It wants to think, well, you know, for 600 years or something, or 1,000 years.

00:29:43 ►

for 600 years or something, or 1,000 years.

00:29:50 ►

I mean, we’re afraid to, this culture’s afraid to see that there’s a very thin membrane that the rationalist Enlightenment culture has painted over something that’s extremely old and deep.

00:29:58 ►

And that’s what human beings have been doing on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years.

00:30:03 ►

They’ve been living in a certain way.

00:30:04 ►

They’ve been using ceremonial medicine plants.

00:30:10 ►

And so I think the other thing I wanted to get into briefly here was it’s almost like we have that heritage

00:30:19 ►

hardwired in us, I think.

00:30:21 ►

I don’t know if any of you here are familiar with Michael Harner’s Foundation

00:30:27 ►

for Shamanic Studies or have ever done that training. Yeah? Not too many. Michael Harner

00:30:33 ►

actually worked with the Hebrew Indians in the early 60s, one of the first people to

00:30:38 ►

work, take ayahuasca, first anthropologist, I should say, to take ayahuasca, and come

00:30:43 ►

back and write about it.

00:30:46 ►

And then he founded the Foundation for Shamanic Studies.

00:30:48 ►

And basically what he did was synthesize, pull together shamanic traditions,

00:30:54 ►

traditions for shamanic journeying and healing from all over the planet, right?

00:31:00 ►

And what he came up with is kind of like very simple, all-purpose way to contact the shamanic energy and to heal.

00:31:09 ►

And people from all over the world have been able to do that.

00:31:12 ►

People who were born and raised in New York City, for example.

00:31:17 ►

And the only birds they’ve ever seen are sparrows or whatever all it is, when they get involved in shamanic training, they very quickly identify with

00:31:27 ►

a power animal and use that power animal to facilitate healing.

00:31:32 ►

And the only way this can be is the fact that this depth of experience is hardwired into

00:31:41 ►

us because we’ve been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years, and it only stopped very recently.

00:31:47 ►

I mean, it’s more like that’s who we are.

00:31:50 ►

We’re tribal.

00:31:51 ►

I mean, you get that sense here, of course, that we’re tribal people.

00:31:56 ►

We belong to a tribe, which is a kind of resonance, resonating frequency,

00:32:02 ►

that’s different than the isolated individual of late Western culture,

00:32:08 ►

you know, in attack mode, competition mode.

00:32:12 ►

And all he really trusts is and has time to, unfortunately, you know, is his nuclear family, right?

00:32:22 ►

So he’s this attack mode creature, and then he goes home and is sweet with his

00:32:28 ►

kids, hopefully with his kids and his wife. But anyway, what we have, I think, in us is

00:32:35 ►

something tribal and something that’s, I mean, it’s gone back for hundreds of thousands of

00:32:40 ►

years. And again, this culture, you know, has done its best to wipe that out,

00:32:47 ►

wipe all traces of that because it’s kind of ultimately what we’re talking about here is consciousness.

00:32:53 ►

So it’s wiping out alternative forms of consciousness.

00:32:58 ►

But it’s like no matter how good they are at doing that,

00:33:00 ►

no matter how many tragedies have taken place with indigenous peoples and so on,

00:33:05 ►

again, because these qualities are hardwired in all of us as human beings,

00:33:09 ►

it just springs right back up, you know?

00:33:14 ►

Something like here in Burning Man.

00:33:18 ►

And when we have experiences with these plant spirits,

00:33:21 ►

we contact something that’s there inside us.

00:33:26 ►

I think it runs very deep, you know.

00:33:29 ►

Amanita, I had one or two experiences with in the 60s,

00:33:33 ►

and mostly what happened was I got violently sick because, I don’t know,

00:33:40 ►

we found, I remember, hundreds of them.

00:33:43 ►

In fact, it was up at Allen Ginsberg’s farm in upstate New York.

00:33:48 ►

They were all over the place.

00:33:50 ►

So we ate them.

00:33:51 ►

We ate lots of them.

00:33:53 ►

And I was really sick.

00:33:56 ►

So that was my Amanita experience.

00:33:58 ►

So I don’t know.

00:33:59 ►

I’m not in a hurry to go back there.

00:34:02 ►

I can remember that.

00:34:03 ►

The experience you were writing about on Iowa Hospital, that was your first trip with it, right?

00:34:08 ►

Yeah.

00:34:08 ►

To be brutally frank here, it’s a kind of compendium of several journeys that I’ve had.

00:34:16 ►

Because I’m using it for a reason in this book.

00:34:19 ►

This book is mostly kind of like a wake-up call, attack, confrontational challenge to American culture, right?

00:34:29 ►

And so I counterbalance that with experiences with the plant spirits.

00:34:33 ►

And so I’m using those and certain other things in here also, but, I mean, I’m using that, you know, in that way.

00:34:39 ►

But basically that central image, though, did come from my first.

00:34:41 ►

basically that central image though did come from my first

00:34:44 ►

but you had

00:34:47 ►

more experiences after that which slowly

00:34:48 ►

revealed more and more to you and like

00:34:50 ►

you held the same vision throughout it

00:34:52 ►

and having more experiences with ayahuasca

00:34:54 ►

helped lead you to your

00:34:56 ►

the conclusions you have now

00:34:58 ►

I suppose so although you know

00:35:00 ►

that first experience was like

00:35:02 ►

key for me crucial

00:35:04 ►

life changing it took a while to sink it was 1992 by 1997 So, although, you know, that first experience was like key for me, crucial. It was like life-changing.

00:35:05 ►

It took a while to sink in, but it was 1992.

00:35:07 ►

By 1997 or somewhere in there, I mean, because I’d been a poet,

00:35:14 ►

and then I’d published a couple novels, and I stopped writing for a while,

00:35:17 ►

and I was basically interested in, got really interested in globalization and corporate culture.

00:35:26 ►

I don’t know, why is that ringing?

00:35:27 ►

Is that me?

00:35:30 ►

Oh, I wanted to say, though, no, I wanted to say that the,

00:35:34 ►

because that first journey with ayahuasca gave me a very visceral, very upfront,

00:35:40 ►

very immediate sense of what was happening on this planet, what we as a human

00:35:49 ►

race or whatever are doing to this planet. I mean, I’d sort of known those, we all sort

00:35:54 ►

of know, you know, we have these quotes in our heads and we sort of know what’s going

00:35:58 ►

on, but this was like a very visceral experience because it was the spirit of the, again, it

00:36:03 ►

was the spirit of the plant speaking to me, right?

00:36:06 ►

So from that, it took several years, but I got involved in the anti-globalization movement.

00:36:11 ►

I got involved in learning about what corporations are all about, what they’re doing,

00:36:18 ►

what the consciousness in corporations is all about.

00:36:24 ►

I mean, there are many perfectly decent, good people who work in corporations,

00:36:29 ►

but they’re all subsumed or swallowed up in a mechanism that functions to our detriment, right?

00:36:39 ►

So I got more and more involved in that.

00:36:41 ►

But to me, the two are connected.

00:36:41 ►

I got more and more involved in that.

00:36:43 ►

But to me, the two are connected.

00:36:51 ►

And certainly other ayahuasca journeys I’ve had were not necessarily, I mean, they might be, the material brought up might be personal or, right, you know, kind of cleansing or emotional issues or what, you know.

00:37:01 ►

But I would go back to that very immediate sense of plants, spirits.

00:37:09 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:37:10 ►

Actually, I’m sure some of you are acquainted with,

00:37:14 ►

or maybe hopefully you’re acquainted with Jeremy Narby’s book called The Cosmic Serpent,

00:37:21 ►

in which it’s really about that.

00:37:23 ►

I mean, he goes down into the jungle as this sort of, I mean, you know, it’s really about that. I mean, he goes down into the jungle as this sort of, I mean, you know, I think scientist.

00:37:29 ►

And he asks that question.

00:37:33 ►

How is it that, you know, out of all these tens of thousands of plants in the jungle,

00:37:36 ►

how is it that you came up with this combination?

00:37:40 ►

And the spirits talk to us.

00:37:42 ►

And he sort of, when he first heard that, it was, well, metaphorical.

00:37:46 ►

You know, it couldn’t possibly, he didn’t even take it seriously.

00:37:49 ►

The more he, of course, then he got involved in taking the substance himself,

00:37:53 ►

but he also, the more he spent time with the shamans there,

00:37:56 ►

the more he realized that’s actually probably what was going on.

00:38:01 ►

People, just people getting together, like at a place like this, and demonstrations in the streets.

00:38:11 ►

It’s a huge threat, and we get discouraged so often because we have big demonstrations for the war,

00:38:19 ►

but the war still happens.

00:38:21 ►

But we should not lead hard.

00:38:24 ►

It’s so important for people to actually get together.

00:38:28 ►

I mean, the Internet is great and all that, but in the last 20 years, popular demonstrations,

00:38:34 ►

just people being out in the street, have brought down a dozen governments without firing a shot.

00:38:41 ►

Right, right, right.

00:38:42 ►

So that’s definitely true.

00:38:50 ►

You know what I’m going to do now?

00:38:52 ►

I mean, I didn’t want to be here at Burning Man and kind of beat you over the head with some vision.

00:38:58 ►

I mean, a lot of this in this book is sort of detailing what the petroleum industry is all about

00:39:04 ►

and what the vision is, the darkness that’s out there.

00:39:08 ►

But, I mean, I think a lot of us sort of are sensitized to such a degree about all of that that we’re here, you know.

00:39:15 ►

And so, but I do want to read one more section.

00:39:36 ►

Now, I’m picking these sections that have psychoactive substances in honor of Burning Man’s realm here.

00:39:42 ►

And this is San Pedro. San Pedro,

00:39:45 ►

anyone in here

00:39:46 ►

acquainted with San Pedro,

00:39:49 ►

the cactus from South America?

00:39:51 ►

Okay.

00:39:54 ►

But

00:39:54 ►

the reason I’m going to read this is that

00:39:57 ►

it gets somewhat to what Dale

00:39:59 ►

was just mentioning here, which is the fact that

00:40:01 ►

you’ll see when I read it,

00:40:03 ►

but it has to do with what it is we’re up against and how we can deal with that. Anyway, I cut the fact that, but you’ll see when I read it, but it has to do with what it is we’re

00:40:05 ►

up against and how we can deal with that. Anyway, I cut the star-shaped cactus into slices and cover

00:40:11 ►

the slices with water, simmering them for hours. During this process, their wrenching smell pervades

00:40:16 ►

the cabin, that indescribable aroma, its singularity making me know I’m in the presence

00:40:23 ►

of a formidable plant spirit.

00:40:28 ►

Simply cooking the cactus brings that spirit near.

00:40:31 ►

Someone calling from just beyond the threshold of hearing.

00:40:34 ►

Something appearing just beyond the threshold of sight.

00:40:35 ►

Heal me, mama.

00:40:37 ►

Heal me of this disconnect.

00:40:41 ►

I get more and more nervous as the afternoon proceeds.

00:40:42 ►

Many trips to the bathroom.

00:40:44 ►

Butterflies in my gut.

00:40:45 ►

Sweat on my brow.

00:40:53 ►

Anticipation of the psychoactive powerhouse to come. San Pedro will blow my ego apart. It will leave my identity in tatters. Glory of the unknown. Emptiness, my great friend. An afternoon of

00:41:01 ►

preparation has come down to this. Half a cup of pale brown liquid which I raise to my lips and drink.

00:41:07 ►

The taste is beyond bitter, impossible to gag down, but I do.

00:41:13 ►

Time passes and my body starts to feel inhabited, tentative,

00:41:17 ►

as if the atmospheric pressure in the entire universe dips and changes.

00:41:22 ►

Suddenly fear gives way to anticipation, acceptance.

00:41:26 ►

I look to rejoin the ancient ones, those who came before. I look to leave the toxic comic

00:41:32 ►

book of consensus reality far behind, my taste for the infinite quenched again at last.

00:41:39 ►

Maybe this time, spirit, you’ll answer my question. Teach me how to survive the collapse And Spirit tells me this. to turn and face him because the demon eats your non-awareness. He drinks your complacency. Either

00:42:06 ►

you turn and face him or he’s on your back forever. Not only face the demon but swallow him whole.

00:42:13 ►

But eating poison is impossible without guidance. To teachers both human and plant spirit I offer

00:42:19 ►

my gratitude. Their shower of blessings protects and instructs me. Their gift to me, mine’s empty nature.

00:42:26 ►

Their gift to me, fearless presence in the midst of conflagration.

00:42:29 ►

And the demon’s solidity becomes my creation.

00:42:33 ►

Evil loses its power.

00:42:34 ►

Despair no longer seduces.

00:42:36 ►

Faced with the end times, I’m renewed, energized, empowered by realizations I’d never have otherwise.

00:42:43 ►

I experience hell realms without hesitation.

00:42:46 ►

No more exciting time to be alive than now.

00:42:50 ►

So don’t lose heart.

00:42:52 ►

Take courage as we enter the dead zone,

00:42:54 ►

where planetary decimation is disguised as unprecedented material well-being.

00:43:00 ►

We’ll watch, disbelieving, while millions of people are given mysterious new identities.

00:43:06 ►

We’ll listen to canned music distract drunken revelers in surfside vacation colonies,

00:43:11 ►

while those locals, not employed as security, stare open-mouthed from the other side of barbed wire fences.

00:43:18 ►

None of this registering in suburbs back home where overfed families bicker like strangers,

00:43:24 ►

then line up at the multiplex

00:43:25 ►

to watch glacial rituals of dismemberment and sexual predation. We’ll swallow all this

00:43:31 ►

and more, remaining self-possessed, remaining present, until gradually the demon will shrink

00:43:37 ►

like a tumor in spontaneous remission and the space for a new life will appear.

00:43:44 ►

Thank you. and the space for a new life will appear.

00:43:45 ►

Thank you.

00:43:58 ►

So that, again, is coming back to, I mean, another way of looking at this thing about the American dream being a question of basically arbitrary tapes that have been installed in us by our parents and our culture.

00:44:05 ►

And the same thing holds true for the demons that are out there.

00:44:08 ►

The demons are basically our own creation.

00:44:11 ►

And as long as we run away from them, they just get more and more fearsome.

00:44:15 ►

But when we turn and face them, they disappear.

00:44:21 ►

So I’ve kind of come more or less to a close of what I was going to read from my book.

00:44:29 ►

Face them, meaning instead of being afraid, just looking them in the eye.

00:44:35 ►

I mean, who are they really to some extent?

00:44:38 ►

You know, there’s a Felicitas Goodman book.

00:44:43 ►

She was, I don’t know, she’s still alive, called What About Demons?

00:44:50 ►

It’s actually a pretty great book.

00:44:52 ►

So what about demons?

00:44:53 ►

I wonder.

00:44:55 ►

Do we believe in the existence of demons?

00:44:59 ►

Are they our own creation or are they for real, right?

00:45:04 ►

I mean, the Tibetans sort of have it both ways.

00:45:09 ►

They say, you know, all of our experience is mental projection, right?

00:45:16 ►

But when you do chud practice in the charnel grounds,

00:45:22 ►

the demons that appear to you, they say, are real.

00:45:27 ►

I think that there’s two types of demons.

00:45:30 ►

In my experience, I’ve encountered two types of demons within myself.

00:45:32 ►

The first type is the higher aspects of myself that are very angry and hurt

00:45:39 ►

because when I was a child, they were hurt, violated,

00:45:43 ►

and they are very powerful and very angry

00:45:46 ►

and found ways of making themselves ferocious for my own protection.

00:45:51 ►

And once I was able to confront them, walk into them, and look out through their eyes,

00:45:57 ►

I saw that I was just the really immature, childish, the baby in me that was so afraid so long ago.

00:46:04 ►

The other type of demon I’ve encountered, I actually would call it more of a metaphysical virus,

00:46:10 ►

which is an energy imprint that was given to me by several people.

00:46:16 ►

It was a certain type of really very, I think the best word for it is a very misogynist type of energy

00:46:24 ►

that was imprinted onto me by my father, my stepmother,

00:46:26 ►

and actually several lovers that I had that kind of perpetuate a certain form of exchange between men and women that I consider to be unhealthy.

00:46:35 ►

Right.

00:46:36 ►

And that wasn’t something that I was born with, and by recognizing it as such, was able to expel it.

00:46:42 ►

Right.

00:46:43 ►

But what you’re basically talking about is your shadow side and your own personal demons.

00:46:50 ►

I mean, my question was, are there demons out there?

00:46:54 ►

And if so, how do we deal with them?

00:46:57 ►

And I think to some extent there’s a feedback mechanism in our experience,

00:47:04 ►

which means that even though those demons are real, we’re feeding them with our fear.

00:47:09 ►

The more we’re afraid, the more power they have.

00:47:15 ►

I think that when your personal demon imprints that pattern on someone else,

00:47:20 ►

then it becomes a very real, tangible demon.

00:47:24 ►

Yeah, I’m not talking about you know let’s

00:47:27 ►

just cut to the chase here before we finish i’m talking about dick cheney for example

00:47:31 ►

do we see that person as demonic or what you know yeah or is it uh or is he what’s the story is he

00:47:41 ►

just another guy who happens to be a little more driven than most of the fear, greed-driven, you know, people who are out there?

00:47:49 ►

Or is there something demonic going on?

00:47:51 ►

I mean, I feel there is something demonic going on.

00:47:54 ►

Yeah, well, he’s just an ordinary guy that, I think he went to Wisconsin, right?

00:48:00 ►

Went to Madison?

00:48:01 ►

I don’t know.

00:48:02 ►

And was there in the 60s doing voter work for the Republicans even back then.

00:48:08 ►

However, I have heard that some have seen a demon lurking over his shoulder.

00:48:14 ►

There you go. And we don’t have to precisely determine the ontological status of the demons in order to deal with them.

00:48:24 ►

To deal with them anyway.

00:48:25 ►

To deal with them, right.

00:48:25 ►

Right, exactly.

00:48:27 ►

Okay, well, okay, one last over here.

00:48:32 ►

Hi.

00:48:33 ►

Hi.

00:48:34 ►

Yeah, there’s only us, you know.

00:48:41 ►

If there’s someone that is particularly difficult for you,

00:48:49 ►

then it’s bringing up something in you that you need to look at.

00:48:53 ►

And certainly people serve these power structures,

00:48:58 ►

and we want to replace them with something more organic.

00:49:01 ►

But we’re not replacing the people, and we’re not threatening them directly. We need to do what we’re doing in a way that is not threatening. Otherwise,

00:49:11 ►

we’re just going to turn into the new power structure, and I don’t think anyone wants

00:49:15 ►

that.

00:49:16 ►

Right. We’ll just be changing the locks on the doors, right? I think that’s definitely

00:49:20 ►

true, and I think to that extent, real change has a spiritual component to it.

00:49:28 ►

It’s not just about shifting around the wealth or whatever.

00:49:33 ►

Okay, so folks, thanks a lot for being here with me.

00:49:37 ►

It was a pleasure.

00:49:38 ►

Thank you.

00:49:43 ►

I wish there was more time to discuss World on Fire,

00:49:47 ►

but you can’t really beat the experience of reading it aloud for yourself.

00:49:52 ►

I think reading it aloud is where the real power of this book comes through, by the way.

00:49:57 ►

And I do hope that you pay close attention to Michael’s excellent advice

00:50:01 ►

about only ingesting ayahuasca in a ritual setting.

00:50:06 ►

Trust me, this is not a party drug.

00:50:08 ►

But, as Michael said, it does have the potential of providing a life-changing experience.

00:50:15 ►

And used properly, I think ayahuasca is perhaps one of the greatest teachers

00:50:19 ►

about how to live on this planet that you’re going to find.

00:50:23 ►

I can personally attest to the fact that Lady Ayahuasca,

00:50:26 ►

if you treat her respectfully,

00:50:28 ►

can also become your personal creative muse.

00:50:32 ►

In fact, large sections of my book,

00:50:34 ►

The Spirit of the Internet,

00:50:35 ►

were essentially revealed to me during Ayahuasca journeys.

00:50:39 ►

To that I am forever in her debt.

00:50:42 ►

As much as I’d like to read some of my favorite quotes from World on Fire,

00:50:47 ►

I’m going to have to bring this session of the Psychedelic Salon to a close.

00:50:51 ►

Thanks again to Jacques Cordell and Wells of Chateau Hayouk

00:50:55 ►

for the use of their music here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:50:59 ►

Really appreciate it, you guys. Thanks again.

00:51:02 ►

I hope you’ll be joining us in the next Psychedelic Salon when we’ll

00:51:06 ►

bring you a talk by Bruce Dahmer

00:51:07 ►

that’s titled, The Day the Universe

00:51:10 ►

Becomes Conscious.

00:51:12 ►

I think you’re going to find

00:51:13 ►

Bruce’s futuristic thinking very

00:51:15 ►

much to your taste.

00:51:18 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo

00:51:20 ►

signing off from

00:51:21 ►

Cyberdelic Space.

00:51:23 ►

Be well, my friends. Thank you.

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