Program Notes
Guest speakers: Dr. Albert Hofmann and Peter Gorman
[NOTE: All quotations are by Albert Hofmann.]
“I reported about this bicycle ride because I had the feeling that time would stand still. It was a very strange feeling that I had never had before, this change in the experience of time.”
“It [my first LSD experience] became such a strange experience that I feared to have become insane.”
“At the climax I had the feeling to be already out of my body.”
“It [LSD] works on the very center of our psychic existence.”
“Nobody has died from toxic doses of LSD, not one case. All of the fatal cases were by accidents due to the disturbances of the consciousness of the senses.”
“They did not see any special effect on animals, because LSD works only on very high spiritual centers, on consciousness, which animals don’t have.”
“[Research with morning glory seeds] shows us that LSD is not just a laboratory product. It is closely related chemically, and pharmalogically, psychologically with [morning glory seeds], with this old Indian magic drug. That means that LSD belongs, pharmalogically chemically, with a group of the sacred magic plants of Mexico. That’s a very important finding.”
“I never believed it [LSD] would become a pleasure drug on the streets.”
“I think, of course, the story of LSD is not yet finished at all. If we learn to use it with respect and under the right conditions I am sure the beneficial effects are enormous.”
“In antiquity they had institutions where people who liked to have a [psychedelic initiation] could go and have a very well elaborated condition to have a beneficial effect. But we have not this. We have not. Doesn’t exist.”
“I think the next thing that can be reasonably asked is that LSD and the psychedelics should be legally available in psychiatry. As doctors have access to morphine, they have access to cocaine, they have no access to LSD. This must be changed. This should be changed.”
“That is also important, that LSD produces no addiction.”
Peter Gorman, Writer, Explorer, Naturalist
LSD Testing on British Troops
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from Cyberdelic Space.
00:00:20 ►
This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:24 ►
This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:36 ►
And with me today as virtual hosts are Michael O., Roman S., Leon M., Jennifer M., and Anatole L., all of whom have either paid for a copy of my Pay What You Can audiobook, my novel The Genesis Generation,
00:00:43 ►
or they made a direct donation to the Slan to
00:00:46 ►
help offset some of our expenses.
00:00:48 ►
And I thank you all ever so much.
00:00:51 ►
And four other people I want to thank are the four adventuresome souls who bought a
00:00:56 ►
ticket to the workshop on Orcas Island that Bruce Dahmer and I were planning on giving
00:01:01 ►
at the end of this month.
00:01:03 ►
And yes, you heard me correctly when I said we
00:01:05 ►
were planning. Because as much as it pains me to do so, I’m sorry to announce that we have had to
00:01:13 ►
cancel this event. As you might guess, with only four weeks left and only four tickets being sold,
00:01:20 ►
well, it appeared to be a losing proposition where we couldn’t even cover our expenses.
00:01:27 ►
So, I sincerely apologize to you four wonderful people who were committed to attending our workshop,
00:01:33 ►
and I hope that one day we can find a way to make it up to you.
00:01:37 ►
But for now, it looks like I’ll only be coming to you here in the salon and not in person any time this year.
00:01:46 ►
to you here in the salon and not in person anytime this year. However, if you live near Portland, Oregon, there is another workshop that same weekend that you may be interested in.
00:01:51 ►
It’s being led by my good friend and fellow podcaster and all-around brilliant person,
00:01:57 ►
Neil Kramer. His workshop is titled Walking the Sacred Path, and I’m sure that it’s going to be fantastic, as is all of Neil’s work.
00:02:07 ►
So you might want to go to neilkramer.com
00:02:14 ►
and check out this event, which runs from September 30th through October 2nd.
00:02:20 ►
So, where are we now?
00:02:22 ►
Well, instead of finishing my notes for this podcast,
00:02:26 ►
I have to admit that I’ve been watching a lot of the live Ustream video from the playa at Burning Man.
00:02:32 ►
I wish I could turn it off and get something else done around here,
00:02:35 ►
but it’s hard to do when you’re feeling a bit homesick about not being able to make the festival this year.
00:02:42 ►
And after seeing the size of the temple this year, I’m definitely planning on watching it burn on this Sunday night.
00:02:48 ►
And for my burner friends who are listening to this podcast
00:02:52 ►
a week or a month or so after returning from the playa,
00:02:55 ►
well, I hope you had a great burn
00:02:57 ►
and that we get to meet in Black Rock City next year
00:03:00 ►
when I plan to be there for sure.
00:03:03 ►
But enough of me pining for the playa, so let’s get on with today’s program, and then
00:03:09 ►
of course I’ll be back to watching John’s live stream from the playa.
00:03:15 ►
But that said, I do want you to know what a treat we’re in for today, because we’re
00:03:21 ►
about to hear what to me is the best, most intimate, and most revealing conversation I’ve ever heard of the discoverer of LSD, Dr. Albert Hoffman.
00:03:31 ►
And it begins with the greatest call waiting moment I’ve ever heard.
00:03:36 ►
Now, I don’t know about you, but personally, I’ve always disliked the call waiting feature on today’s telephone service.
00:03:42 ►
like the call waiting feature on today’s telephone service.
00:03:47 ►
Very rarely will I click over when a call comes in while I’m talking to somebody else,
00:03:50 ►
because, well, I find it extremely rude.
00:03:54 ►
But let me ask you, if you had Dr. Albert Hoffman on the phone after trying for weeks to get him to do an interview,
00:03:57 ►
would you ask him to hold while you took another call?
00:04:02 ►
Well, Peter Gorman does exactly that, and as you will hear in just a moment, it was a timeless
00:04:09 ►
moment. And that’s the only hint I’m going to give you about the caller. But I do want to let you
00:04:15 ►
know that I have edited out several minutes of their conversation, the conversation between Peter
00:04:20 ►
and Dr. Hoffman, right after the call waiting interruption. And what I edited out is a lengthy Thank you. it doesn’t exactly show Dr. Hoffman at his finest, but I left the heart of their discussion in
00:04:45 ►
simply because I think it’s important that we all keep in mind that everyone, even the great
00:04:51 ►
Albert Hoffman, is human and has a few character traits that we might not expect in one of our
00:04:57 ►
heroes. The point I’m trying to make is that even with our failings, each and every one of us can still be great in our own ways,
00:05:05 ►
and that even the great ones among us are humans,
00:05:09 ►
complete with their own unique set of quirky character traits.
00:05:14 ►
Now, before I forget, there are three important thank yous
00:05:17 ►
to pass along in conjunction with today’s program.
00:05:20 ►
The first two you’ve been hearing for several weeks now,
00:05:22 ►
and those go out to the interviewer, Peter Gorman, who I’ll have a little more to say about later,
00:05:28 ►
and to Hector Glass, who digitized these old tapes for us.
00:05:32 ►
However, this particular tape, and a few others, were so badly damaged by the Texas heat in which they’d been stored,
00:05:40 ►
that I could barely make out what was being said.
00:05:42 ►
that I could barely make out what was being said.
00:05:46 ►
And as you know, I asked for help in making them listenable,
00:05:52 ►
and several people, including Roman P., who did the best job, took a stab at it.
00:05:56 ►
And as I said, he had some very promising results.
00:06:00 ►
But the person who did a really incredible job of cleaning them up, the one that you’re going to hear right now, in fact, was my dear friend, Amara Angelica.
00:06:06 ►
And while Amara may be a little surprised to hear me call her my dear friend,
00:06:11 ►
seeing as how we’ve only met in person one time,
00:06:13 ►
but that is how I always think of her,
00:06:15 ►
since it was Amara who wrote an article in the 10th edition of Mondo 2000
00:06:20 ►
in which, for the very first time, I learned about a substance called DMT and
00:06:27 ►
of a man named Terrence McKenna. Had she never written that story, well, there’s a high probability
00:06:33 ►
that you and I wouldn’t be sharing this moment right now. You see, at the time I read her
00:06:38 ►
story, I was living alone in Florida, and actually I only knew one other person who
00:06:43 ►
was using psychedelics, and mainly
00:06:45 ►
magic mushrooms, which we found on his farm. In fact, we pretty much thought that we were
00:06:51 ►
the last two guys of our age who were still smoking pot and using mushrooms. That’s how
00:06:57 ►
isolated that I’ve become, and so I do understand what some of our fellow salonners are talking
00:07:03 ►
about when they report that they haven’t been able to find any of the others in their local area.
00:07:09 ►
It’s a really lonely feeling, and back in 1993, when I read Amara’s story, and, by the way, the same year that this interview we’re about to hear took place,
00:07:21 ►
well, there was no World Wide Web or podcasting to let us know that we weren’t alone.
00:07:27 ►
And so I guess this is a long-winded way for me to once again thank Amara for both leading me to the others
00:07:33 ►
and for doing an incredible job of fixing some audio files that otherwise might have been lost forever.
00:07:40 ►
You’re the best, Amara. Thank you ever so much.
00:07:42 ►
You’re the best, Amara. Thank you ever so much.
00:07:53 ►
And one more thing I kind of feel compelled to add is a little tidbit for what seems to be now our weekly synchronicity watch.
00:07:56 ►
First of all, I read that article about Terrence.
00:08:01 ►
It was in Mondo 2000, issue number 10, which came out sometime in 1993.
00:08:06 ►
And that’s the same year that the interview we’re about to hear took place.
00:08:09 ►
So there’s a chance that I was reading Amara’s story at about the same time Peter was interviewing Dr. Hoffman.
00:08:13 ►
And on top of that, if you’re a listener to the great podcasts
00:08:16 ►
on the Cannabis Podcast Network at dopefiend.co.uk
00:08:20 ►
and or participate in the growreport.com’s forums, you know that one of the cornerstones
00:08:28 ►
of both those efforts is the work of someone we only know as Xandor, which by very neat
00:08:35 ►
coincidence is the pen name that Amara used for the article about Terrence that eventually
00:08:40 ►
led me to the tribe.
00:08:43 ►
It’s kind of interesting, don’t you think, that all these paths are intersected here today?
00:08:49 ►
Or maybe you don’t, I guess, but I have to admit that it all does really tickle my fancy.
00:08:54 ►
And if your fancy is like mine, it can use all the tickling it can get.
00:09:01 ►
So, enough of me rambling on, let’s get on with the show, huh?
00:09:06 ►
First of all, I do want to point out in advance what a magnificent job Peter Gorman does in interviewing Dr. Hoffman.
00:09:14 ►
I don’t usually do interviews in the salon here myself because I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not very good at interviewing people.
00:09:22 ►
You see, the sign of a good interviewer is being able to keep quiet.
00:09:27 ►
And you know me, I love to talk.
00:09:29 ►
So I pay close attention to how a professional does it whenever I can.
00:09:34 ►
And you may come to a different conclusion, but for me,
00:09:37 ►
the way Peter handles what could have become a very contentious interview
00:09:41 ►
and turns it into a friendly conversation in which he lets
00:09:45 ►
his guests do almost all the talking I think is world class. I can guarantee you that if
00:09:50 ►
I’d done this interview, I would have started talking during some of Albert’s longer pauses.
00:09:55 ►
And as you’re about to hear, that would have been a mistake. And after we hear this conversation,
00:10:01 ►
I’ll be back to tell you a little more about Peter Gorman. But first, here is Dr. Albert Hoffman speaking with him sometime in 1993, at which time Dr. Hoffman was about 87 years old.
00:10:21 ►
Yes, Peter Gorman.
00:10:24 ►
Yes, explain me again
00:10:26 ►
What magazine are you working for?
00:10:30 ►
High Times magazine
00:10:31 ►
High Times?
00:10:32 ►
Yes
00:10:33 ►
And the people that have already spoken to me for this
00:10:38 ►
Just so you’re comfortable
00:10:40 ►
Include Oscar Janik
00:10:42 ►
John Beresford
00:10:44 ►
Stanley Graf Sasha Shulgin, Ken Kesey, Nina
00:10:48 ►
Graboi, Laura Huxley, Stanley Krivner.
00:10:52 ►
We have already…
00:10:53 ►
Whoops.
00:10:55 ►
…to give interviews.
00:10:56 ►
Sorry?
00:10:57 ►
All these have already accepted to give interviews.
00:11:00 ►
They have already done interviews with me.
00:11:02 ►
Already done.
00:11:03 ►
This is finished.
00:11:04 ►
All of these people are done.
00:11:05 ►
Stephen Gaskin.
00:11:07 ►
Yeah.
00:11:08 ►
Yeah, I mean, there’s 30 people
00:11:10 ►
that have finished interviews with me.
00:11:12 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:11:14 ►
And more people have promised,
00:11:16 ►
but these are the ones that are
00:11:17 ►
honest to God in their finished,
00:11:20 ►
and I could send you the tape recorder.
00:11:22 ►
This is not…
00:11:24 ►
Pardon me one moment, okay? Sorry.
00:11:27 ►
Hello?
00:11:28 ►
Hello, is this Peter Goleman?
00:11:30 ►
Yes.
00:11:31 ►
Good afternoon, this is Laura Huxley.
00:11:33 ►
Hello, Laura. You know, I… Can I call you… I’m on the phone with Albert Hoffman right now.
00:11:39 ►
Oh, yes. Well, I’ve been giving my best, please don’t call me back.
00:11:42 ►
Okay, thank you.
00:11:43 ►
Pleasure.
00:11:44 ►
Hello? Yes. Yes, that was laura huxley yes and she says please give
00:11:51 ►
albert my best i’m not kidding people uh they know my work and they know that it’s i’m i’m
00:12:00 ►
trying to draw a fair picture of a fair fair history of, from the people, hopefully like yourself,
00:12:08 ►
but up through some of the more modern workers, Richard Doblin.
00:12:13 ►
I just got off the phone since I spoke to you last with Ronald Sanderson in England,
00:12:18 ►
and he spoke with me for 15 minutes.
00:12:22 ►
And, you know, Richard Schultes is a friend of mine because of my
00:12:26 ►
work in the Amazon. And I know you have done a lot of work. That’s one of the things I
00:12:32 ►
would like to talk to you about. So, it’s okay.
00:12:36 ►
Yes.
00:12:37 ►
Thank you. Thank you.
00:12:39 ►
But do you pay a ton of money for the interview?
00:12:45 ►
Not normally.
00:12:47 ►
The magazine is not a non-profit organization.
00:12:54 ►
It is a profit organization, the Time magazine.
00:12:57 ►
And you are also paid.
00:12:59 ►
This is High Times magazine.
00:13:00 ►
I should not be paid.
00:13:03 ►
But you are so important
00:13:05 ►
for me to
00:13:06 ►
talk to that
00:13:08 ►
I would be
00:13:08 ►
willing to
00:13:09 ►
make an
00:13:09 ►
exception and
00:13:11 ►
if I can
00:13:12 ►
afford it I
00:13:12 ►
will pay you
00:13:13 ►
from what I’m
00:13:14 ►
getting paid.
00:13:15 ►
My entire
00:13:15 ►
payment for the
00:13:16 ►
story will be
00:13:17 ►
$300 and my
00:13:20 ►
phone bill will
00:13:20 ►
be $750 or
00:13:22 ►
$800 and
00:13:24 ►
that’s okay
00:13:24 ►
because I want to do this story.
00:13:28 ►
What was it with your proposal?
00:13:30 ►
What did you propose?
00:13:31 ►
I have no idea, just I brought this question up to the caller.
00:13:38 ►
Let’s say I can personally afford $250 American dollars.
00:13:44 ►
Oh.
00:13:46 ►
Oh. Oh.
00:13:48 ►
And the rest would be paid at the magazine.
00:13:52 ►
No, that’s what the magazine,
00:13:53 ►
I mean, in other words,
00:13:53 ►
they would say,
00:13:55 ►
we’re paying you $300, Peter,
00:13:56 ►
so you take $50 for yourself
00:13:59 ►
and $250 for Mr. Hoffman.
00:14:02 ►
Uh-huh.
00:14:04 ►
Oh, yeah, like…
00:14:06 ►
Oh, yeah.
00:14:07 ►
Okay.
00:14:09 ►
Okay.
00:14:11 ►
I mean, does that mean okay?
00:14:13 ►
And I should…
00:14:14 ►
I don’t…
00:14:15 ►
I don’t mind.
00:14:16 ►
I’m just…
00:14:18 ►
I gave an interview.
00:14:20 ►
It was some years ago.
00:14:23 ►
They paid me $1,000.
00:14:25 ►
That was Omni magazine.
00:14:29 ►
Maybe it was a more rich magazine than we have.
00:14:31 ►
Yeah.
00:14:35 ►
Let’s say $500.
00:14:37 ►
Okay.
00:14:39 ►
Okay, I’ll try to clear $500.
00:14:42 ►
Let’s start.
00:14:44 ►
Okay.
00:14:50 ►
Start a brief summary about your work with Zandos and why you ended up synthesizing LSD.
00:14:54 ►
What were you working on?
00:14:57 ►
I was working in the ergot field.
00:15:01 ►
And ergot is a mushroom
00:15:03 ►
which contains many, many interesting substances,
00:15:07 ►
alkaloids. And I, in this work, I planned to synthesize a stimulant for the circulation. A circulatory stimulant.
00:15:30 ►
For blood circulation? Blood circulation, yes. That was the idea. Because… and then I had at the model I had was coramine that was already famous and very good
00:15:50 ►
circulation stimulation it is was coramine and coramine. Nicotinic acid diethylamide. And because lysergic acid with which I was working
00:16:10 ►
has a similar structure as nicotinic acid. I expected that because nicotinic acid diethylamide was a circulatory stimulant,
00:16:29 ►
I expected that lysergic acid diethylamide would also be a circulatory stimulant.
00:16:44 ►
Yes. That was the plan.
00:16:46 ►
Right.
00:16:48 ►
And so, what happened?
00:16:52 ►
And these, as it is the rule,
00:16:57 ►
this substance,
00:16:58 ►
linoleic acid thiazolamide,
00:17:00 ►
which I synthesized the first time in 1938,
00:17:06 ►
was given to the pharmacological medical department for testing.
00:17:12 ►
But we did not find anything special.
00:17:17 ►
Just the animals which were used for the tests
00:17:22 ►
became in the,
00:17:25 ►
they were given to sleep.
00:17:27 ►
What is that?
00:17:28 ►
Hypnotized animals.
00:17:31 ►
It was a hypnotic on the animals.
00:17:34 ►
No, it was…
00:17:35 ►
The animals, when they are tested for something,
00:17:37 ►
they are even tranquilized or something like that.
00:17:44 ►
I see.
00:17:45 ►
And then they became,
00:17:47 ►
that is not important,
00:17:48 ►
in any way,
00:17:50 ►
they did not find something special
00:17:51 ►
with this compound
00:17:52 ►
and this
00:17:53 ►
further research
00:17:55 ►
was stopped
00:17:56 ►
in the
00:17:57 ►
medical department
00:17:59 ►
with this substance.
00:18:01 ►
Right.
00:18:01 ►
But
00:18:02 ►
five years later,
00:18:04 ►
in 1943, I decided to prepare a new batch of LSD in order to give
00:18:16 ►
it to the medical department for a more extended testing, because in the meantime, new tests
00:18:24 ►
were developed.
00:18:26 ►
And I had, from the very beginning, the impression, this substance must be something special.
00:18:32 ►
I don’t know why, it’s just a feeling that you have when you are working and preparing
00:18:37 ►
substances.
00:18:40 ►
And so I had the intention to give it again to this medical department.
00:18:49 ►
And then I was working with this synthesis. At the end of the synthesis, when I was crystallizing the lyseric diethiophthalamide in the form of a tartrate in a soluble soap,
00:19:10 ►
I went into a very strange feeling of a dreamlike feeling.
00:19:25 ►
Everything changed, the forms,
00:19:30 ►
and everything had another meaning.
00:19:34 ►
It was very agreeable.
00:19:36 ►
I went home, lay down,
00:19:40 ►
and with closed eyes,
00:19:42 ►
I had a very, very simulated fantasy. I could just think something and
00:19:48 ►
then saw the pictures. It was wonderful. and I did not know what was the reason.
00:20:12 ►
And really I had used a compound, this was dichlor ethylene, which
00:20:30 ►
I had been using, that could have been the reason.
00:20:33 ►
And then, three days later, I inhaled some of this solvent, but nothing happened. And then I thought maybe that I got by some strange way some of this
00:20:49 ►
diethylsaccharide, diethylsaccharide in my body. And I started, I made a solution, this 5 milligrams,
00:21:09 ►
but I started then taking an equivalent only corresponding to a quarter of a milligram.
00:21:18 ►
How many micrograms is that?
00:21:20 ►
250 micrograms.
00:21:23 ►
Okay.
00:21:29 ►
And immediately, or not immediately, after half an hour, similar symptoms… Did you inject which I had three days before, but immediate, very
00:21:56 ►
soon to become very, very strong, very intense, and I became anxious, and I asked my library assistant to accompany me home.
00:22:11 ►
And then we went home by bicycle, because it was wartime, and of course I had no car.
00:22:20 ►
And I told him then…
00:22:24 ►
How was the bicycle ride?
00:22:26 ►
Yes, the bicycle ride is just strange.
00:22:29 ►
It takes such an important place in the story of LSD.
00:22:33 ►
I wonder why.
00:22:34 ►
But I could have…
00:22:37 ►
I reported on this bicycle ride, in my report about my report about these experiences, I
00:22:50 ►
reported about this bicycle ride because I had the feeling that time would stand still.
00:22:58 ►
It was a very strange feeling I never had before. This change in the experience of life, of time, and therefore I mentioned it.
00:23:11 ►
And since that this bicycle ride, which is about six kilometers down to the little village,
00:23:21 ►
town, little village,
00:23:22 ►
Portland,
00:23:25 ►
I found such an interest in the
00:23:27 ►
mass media.
00:23:30 ►
I don’t know why.
00:23:32 ►
But, and I’m saying
00:23:32 ►
that was the
00:23:35 ►
most characteristic thing.
00:23:38 ►
I was deep already in
00:23:39 ►
France, in LSD,
00:23:42 ►
in LSD,
00:23:44 ►
in the creation, in a variation,
00:23:47 ►
but one of the characteristics
00:23:49 ►
just on this bicycle ride
00:23:51 ►
was that the feeling
00:23:52 ►
not coming from the place
00:23:54 ►
and to be out of,
00:23:58 ►
no time, no feeling of time.
00:24:04 ►
Marvelous.
00:24:06 ►
And then at home, feeling of time. Marvelous.
00:24:10 ►
And then at home, I asked
00:24:12 ►
my
00:24:14 ►
my
00:24:16 ►
assistant to ask
00:24:18 ►
for a doctor.
00:24:20 ►
My wife
00:24:22 ►
and children were out
00:24:24 ►
by their parents at that date, just in another town.
00:24:29 ►
And I asked also the, my assistant to ask for milk by the neighbor, because milk is
00:24:40 ►
known as an antitox, antitoxic in general. And, but I was in a very, very old state of, of, of consciousness.
00:24:56 ►
I, uh, the outer world had changed. Things, um,
00:25:13 ►
things. The room seemed to be full of life, inner life. The colors had changed in more non-intensive. And I had also the feeling of to be myself changed, my ego had changed. And then it became such a strange
00:25:34 ►
experience that I had a fear to have become insane. And sometime
00:25:46 ►
in the
00:25:47 ►
climate,
00:25:50 ►
I had the feeling to be
00:25:52 ►
already out of my body.
00:25:56 ►
And in the meantime,
00:25:58 ►
the doctor
00:26:00 ►
arrived. He tested
00:26:01 ►
my blood pressure.
00:26:03 ►
He made the tests and he shook the head and did not
00:26:07 ►
find anything abnormal with the exception that my pupils in the eyes were enlarged.
00:26:16 ►
But nothing. And… Did that calm you down knowing that? Pardon? You say that you were a little bit frightened about having gone insane.
00:26:28 ►
When the doctor said you were good, did that calm you down?
00:26:32 ►
No, then I had the feeling to die, because I had no more feeling in my body.
00:26:38 ►
I had the feeling to be already out of the body.
00:26:41 ►
I see.
00:26:42 ►
And I could not explain to the doctor. He explained him.
00:26:49 ►
I could, sometime I could really speak rationally and explain him, and I had made an experiment. in the back and stood with me. And then after a very, very five hours, it began to change.
00:27:27 ►
I had the feeling to come from this very, very strange world back to our normal, wonderful world.
00:27:47 ►
I had a feeling
00:27:49 ►
that
00:27:50 ►
when I came back
00:27:54 ►
to this strange world,
00:27:56 ►
that our
00:27:57 ►
world, our normal
00:28:00 ►
world experience,
00:28:03 ►
which normally we don’t
00:28:04 ►
just think it would be something
00:28:08 ►
wonderful, I had the feeling to come back to a wonderful world. I saw it
00:28:15 ►
quite in the new, in the new light, and it’s quite like, what a kind of, to be, to
00:28:22 ►
reverse, to reverse again. But that happened then only uh this very happy feeling
00:28:29 ►
was at the end but when i came back the first thing was that i had very beautiful colored vision
00:28:41 ►
then i of course i lie down and I have the eyes closed and I have beautiful
00:28:45 ►
visions. Every, and what’s very
00:28:48 ►
strange, this
00:28:50 ►
transformation of every sound
00:28:52 ►
in optical
00:28:53 ►
figures.
00:28:55 ►
Some noise
00:28:56 ►
produced in
00:28:59 ►
corresponding colored figure.
00:29:03 ►
And
00:29:04 ►
I could enjoy this and finally I slept I get
00:29:11 ►
asleep and the morning I am awake completely fresh and really then I had
00:29:20 ►
the feeling to see the world as it was fresh and wonderful as the very first day.
00:29:27 ►
Then I wrote all these things down for the head of the pharmaceutical department, Professor
00:29:41 ►
Stoll, and to Professor Rothlin, that was the head of the pharmacological department.
00:29:48 ►
And at the very beginning they did not believe it. They said you must have, may have something with the dosage.
00:29:54 ►
Cannot see it is impossible that such a small quantity can have any effect. But then they made experiments also by other people. The head of the
00:30:09 ►
pharmacological department made an experiment and the movement converges and it
00:30:13 ►
confirmed the enormous potency of the experiment. It took only one piece of what I had taken. And they had still very strong experiences.
00:30:28 ►
Mm-hmm.
00:30:31 ►
Did it look in the test tube
00:30:35 ►
or in the laboratory,
00:30:37 ►
did it look like it could have this potential
00:30:40 ►
or it just looked like it would be
00:30:42 ►
not enough to have an effect?
00:30:46 ►
I didn’t understand your question.
00:30:47 ►
Well, you say you were surprised, or they were surprised, that such a small quantity
00:30:53 ►
could have such a strong effect.
00:30:56 ►
Yeah.
00:30:57 ►
Were they looking at it chemically and saying that the lysergic acid itself should not have this effect?
00:31:10 ►
Or they were just generally saying nothing so small could have such an effect?
00:31:13 ►
Nothing so small could have any effect.
00:31:14 ►
I see. And also today, LSD is the most, most potent substance which has a psychic effect.
00:31:24 ►
with a psychic effect.
00:31:33 ►
All those compounds for psilocybin,
00:31:35 ►
you need 100 times more. For mescaline, 5,000 more.
00:31:39 ►
Five times higher dosage.
00:31:43 ►
You can imagine that with one gram of LSD, you can have 10,000 to 20,000 doses.
00:31:54 ►
One gram.
00:31:56 ►
If 20,000, 10,000 to 20,000. If you make a dose of 100 micrograms, then it gives, one gram gives you 10,000.
00:32:10 ►
Or if you use only a normal dose, that means 50 micrograms, which you use in medicine, then
00:32:17 ►
you can make from one gram, 20,000 doses. And that is
00:32:25 ►
absolutely
00:32:25 ►
out of all
00:32:28 ►
the other compounds
00:32:30 ►
you use,
00:32:32 ►
which you have. For example, all the
00:32:34 ►
toxins,
00:32:36 ►
strychnine,
00:32:38 ►
or
00:32:40 ►
what other
00:32:42 ►
many, they use milligrams,
00:32:44 ►
always use milligrams. always use all these milligrams.
00:32:47 ►
And all the other, all the other psychiatric
00:32:54 ►
medicaments you use always in milligrams or even in centigrams.
00:33:01 ►
And therefore is why you should never read in the newspaper that they got grams of LSD
00:33:09 ►
in you.
00:33:10 ►
In general, there are so many doses, 100 doses or 1,000 doses maybe.
00:33:16 ►
1,000 doses, 0.1 gram.
00:33:19 ►
Right. But in general, in the black market, this also, the one speaks about, about
00:33:31 ►
doses, doses and not in grams or in kilograms with hashish or with cocaine or so on. quite an extraordinary property of LSD
00:33:46 ►
and that’s a very very deep
00:33:48 ►
meaning
00:33:49 ►
pharmacologically
00:33:52 ►
because it means
00:33:54 ►
if you have such
00:33:56 ►
a deep
00:33:58 ►
effect on the whole body of your consciousness
00:34:01 ►
of your
00:34:01 ►
senses
00:34:04 ►
of your seeing and hearing and everything, it means that
00:34:10 ►
LHC must attack the very center of our consciousness, the very center where all these
00:34:17 ►
things come together. And then if you go to the center you can have effects with very small doses.
00:34:28 ►
And that has… it means LSD works very specifically, very specifically, very specifically on the…
00:34:42 ►
on our brain. It works on the very center of our psychic existence.
00:34:54 ►
Now, when we talk of LSD and the experience, this is perhaps I’m getting ahead of myself, but LSD ended up in the hands of psychiatrists
00:35:08 ►
and psychotherapists, and it also ended up in the hands of kids like me 20 years ago.
00:35:19 ►
But is your belief that when it hits, I mean, do you have a belief that it is simply a physical,
00:35:26 ►
something which stimulates a physical part of the body,
00:35:29 ►
or do you have a belief that it does something even more in terms of putting us in tune with,
00:35:38 ►
I don’t know, the altered states of consciousness?
00:35:55 ►
altered states of consciousness. I am sure it is… it stimulates our consciousness and changes our consciousness. That is the most important thing. And the bodily effects are very, very little.
00:36:15 ►
LSD is not toxic compared with, if you compare the affective dose to the lethal dose,
00:36:18 ►
that is the range which you say something is toxic.
00:36:23 ►
You need this range between the affective dose and the lethal dose.
00:36:26 ►
And we know this relation.
00:36:27 ►
We don’t know.
00:36:31 ►
People have had 100 times the active dose and they did not die.
00:36:35 ►
Nobody has died from the toxic doses of LSD.
00:36:36 ►
Not one case. All the fetal cases were by accident due to the disturbances of the consciousness of the senses.
00:36:48 ►
Right.
00:36:50 ►
And it is also very interesting, as I mentioned, the people in our pharmacological department
00:37:00 ►
working with animals, they did not see any special effect on animals, because
00:37:07 ►
LSD works only on very high spiritual centers and consciousness, which animals not have,
00:37:18 ►
seemingly not have. very high doses and then you see in animals and you can see
00:37:34 ►
Not on the central nervous system or just on the what is that the name the
00:37:42 ►
Parasympathetic or the
00:37:55 ►
Or the or the… on the peripheral system, on animals, you only see these effects, which you also see in humans, but if you have very little, little doses, you don’t see it, it has no importance. And therefore she did not, she could not, she thinks it was
00:38:10 ►
nothing special. And indeed, it, that proves that LSD works on, really on, our very, very core, or what do you say, the center of our being,
00:38:35 ►
of the consciousness, which is of course consciousness.
00:38:40 ►
Now, how did LSD begin to be utilized by psychologists and psychiatrists?
00:38:48 ►
How did that happen?
00:38:51 ►
We immediately knew that it is a very important instrument in psychiatry.
00:38:59 ►
And we made then, in sound notes, with the pharmaceutical department and in my department, the chemistry department, we made the first supervised and experiment with volunteers and with tests,
00:39:16 ►
psychological tests.
00:39:32 ►
And then, based on this, we asked, it went in psychiatry for the first psychiatric investigation to the son of my boss at that time, to the son of Professor Stoll, it went to Werner
00:39:38 ►
Stoll, who was at the psychiatric clinic in Zurich. And he made the very first study, psychiatric study with LSD,
00:39:50 ►
giving it to a normal person, to different kinds of mentally ill persons, and it was a very
00:39:59 ►
important, a fundamental investigation. I think with all the important facts he already discovered.
00:40:12 ►
And then, based on this first paper,
00:40:15 ►
which appeared in 1947 in the Swiss Psychiatric Journal,
00:40:22 ►
based on these standards,
00:40:38 ►
journal, based on these sand investigation by Werner Stoll.
00:40:51 ►
And then it was, it found enormous interest worldwide for many years.
00:41:00 ►
It started at the end of the 30s and in the 50s.
00:41:04 ►
which started at the end of the 30s and in the 50s.
00:41:12 ►
And I think many thousands of publications appeared in medical journals and everywhere,
00:41:14 ►
and all things went well.
00:41:20 ►
But certainly in the United States, something happened.
00:41:26 ►
Well, now tell me about, if you will, when these papers began to be published and people realized its importance and how close and how immediate to the core this substance
00:41:33 ►
worked. You know, there have been a lot of books written about the Central Intelligence
00:41:39 ►
Agency deciding to use it as a brainwashing tool. Now, as a chemist, and as the man who synthesized this,
00:41:50 ►
what were your feelings about them doing that?
00:41:54 ►
I was not happy about it at all,
00:41:57 ►
that the people of the war,
00:42:02 ►
the army, of the army laboratory,
00:42:06 ►
were interested in this substance.
00:42:10 ►
And let me just say,
00:42:11 ►
was it only the United States,
00:42:13 ►
or was it also Germany?
00:42:14 ►
No, I heard that also in Russia
00:42:20 ►
that this was made, this substance.
00:42:22 ►
But I was not so…
00:42:26 ►
I think the title of these publications
00:42:31 ►
of the Army,
00:42:34 ►
of the American Army Journal,
00:42:39 ►
I don’t know exactly how it’s named,
00:42:42 ►
is that was war without death. We can, instead of killing our enemies, we incapacitate them, incapacitating drugs, the
00:42:56 ►
believed.
00:42:58 ►
And in this case, it would not be so bad.
00:43:02 ►
But that is not, that also means that it does not function because you need
00:43:08 ►
the right dosage, of course. And, but experiments, many experiments were made in the army that
00:43:17 ►
is known and published. I think you find these things also in this new book, which came out, what is the name?
00:43:28 ►
Storming Heaven?
00:43:29 ►
Storming Heaven.
00:43:30 ►
Yes.
00:43:31 ►
I just wanted to hear your opinion on it, that’s all.
00:43:36 ►
Now, when did you begin to work with Richard Schultes and Wasson in the field?
00:43:46 ►
I know you’ve published and I’ve cited you in some of my papers from the jungle.
00:43:53 ►
Did you begin to travel with Schultes?
00:43:56 ►
Yes.
00:43:59 ►
It started this interest.
00:44:03 ►
It started this interest.
00:44:13 ►
I got in contact first with Professor, with Mr. Vossen.
00:44:34 ►
And that was because, Vossen, you know, this is the man, of course, and he was so enthusiastic about our work here, because before we had the chemical and pharmacological, pharmacology to solve the problem, his colleague did not believe him. He had some
00:44:46 ►
visions. He had a spin or something like that. And then we had this substance and
00:44:54 ►
had all seen that the mushrooms really, ah yes, wasn’t worth, you know, working with
00:45:04 ►
the mushrooms. And nobody did believe know, working with the mushrooms.
00:45:05 ►
Sure.
00:45:05 ►
And nobody did believe him.
00:45:07 ►
And then the mushrooms were investigated in, what was it?
00:45:19 ►
In Merksharp Dome, in the library of Merck-Sharp-Tolm, and in the University of…
00:45:32 ►
Oh, you can read it in my book, if you find this data. and also in the University of Paris.
00:45:48 ►
Professor Heim gave it to the chemical laboratory at the University of Paris.
00:45:52 ►
But they did not find anything.
00:45:55 ►
They were not able to isolate the active principles.
00:45:59 ►
And then Professor Heim in Paris thought that
00:46:04 ►
something in the lab in Basel, they have a substance
00:46:09 ►
which produces the same psychic effects.
00:46:14 ►
And maybe that they have experience to solve this problem.
00:46:18 ►
And so he asked us if we would be interested to investigate the mushrooms.
00:46:25 ►
And then we could solve the problem.
00:46:28 ►
And interesting enough, I must tell this story.
00:46:33 ►
Why had we success?
00:46:34 ►
Very soon, in opposite to the other labs,
00:46:40 ►
because we tested the extract.
00:46:44 ►
You need a test for isolation procedure.
00:46:48 ►
We tested the extract on ourselves.
00:46:52 ►
We ate the extract.
00:46:55 ►
And because in animals you don’t see anything.
00:46:58 ►
And Professor Moore in Delaware was the man who worked also.
00:47:01 ►
Professor Moore in Delaware University.
00:47:05 ►
And he tested it in animals, all kinds of animals, but they did not see effects.
00:47:10 ►
Then we were able to concentrate the extracts and finally crystallize and finally make structure and synthesis.
00:47:20 ►
And then Professor Wossen was so so enthusiastic he came to Basel, visited me in my lab and I showed him the crystals. And of course he as then he said, no, there is another magic plant in Mexico used by the Indians
00:47:53 ►
which is not yet investigated chemically, and that is ololucre.
00:48:01 ►
And then I…
00:48:02 ►
I’m sorry, what?
00:48:04 ►
Ololucre.
00:48:05 ►
Okay. Ololukwi. Okay.
00:48:06 ►
Ololukwi.
00:48:07 ►
Okay.
00:48:08 ►
You’ll find it also in my book, Ololukwi.
00:48:11 ►
And this is not investigated,
00:48:15 ►
and you should also start to investigate this.
00:48:19 ►
And then I studied the literature about what was known on Ololukwi,
00:48:32 ►
and then I found a publication by Dick Schultes about Ololukwi.
00:48:38 ►
He described it botanically, the botanical identification of Ololukwi, the seeds of some morning glory species.
00:48:50 ►
morning glory species. And then we met, I got the literature by him, and then on a congress on medicinal plants we met the first time in Berlin in, what about 19, maybe
00:48:58 ►
about 1960, so. So I got also in contact with Dick Schulz and then good friends and we worked together
00:49:08 ►
and he also published two books, you know.
00:49:12 ►
Yes, I’ve seen it.
00:49:13 ►
The Botany and Chemistry of Allergens and Plants of the Gods.
00:49:21 ►
we made an
00:49:23 ►
expedition
00:49:26 ►
to
00:49:27 ►
the Mazatec
00:49:29 ►
country in search
00:49:31 ►
of another
00:49:33 ►
another
00:49:35 ►
magic plant
00:49:36 ►
which finally could collect
00:49:40 ►
the plant and that was
00:49:41 ►
the Saldia species
00:49:43 ►
but this it is not yet solved the problem, it seems that it is the plant and that of salvia divinora, salvia species.
00:49:48 ►
But this has not yet solved the problem.
00:49:54 ►
It seems that it contains a principle which is easily destroyed. And the Indians use the breast, that’s this juice, which you compress the plant to get
00:50:03 ►
the juice, and they drink this juice and you compress the plant to get the juice and he drinks his juice and
00:50:05 ►
has then visions.
00:50:09 ►
And the name
00:50:10 ►
of this plant was? One more time.
00:50:12 ►
Salvia
00:50:13 ►
divinorum.
00:50:15 ►
Salvia divinorum. You’ll find it also
00:50:17 ►
in my… Right, I just want to get it right
00:50:19 ►
so I can look for the proper thing.
00:50:21 ►
Yeah, yeah. Salvia divinorum.
00:50:24 ►
It was an unknown species.
00:50:26 ►
We brought samples from this expedition,
00:50:30 ►
and then in the Harvard Botanical Department,
00:50:35 ►
it was identified,
00:50:37 ►
it was described as a new species,
00:50:39 ►
and they gave a new name,
00:50:41 ►
Salvia diminorum.
00:50:56 ►
you name, saldia divinorum, that means the saldia of the gods, divini would be the gods.
00:51:00 ►
It is not quite just the right name. I would have said Saudia Divinaturum of the
00:51:06 ►
forefathers, more than of the
00:51:08 ►
gods. But the
00:51:09 ►
name is now in
00:51:11 ►
scientific literature
00:51:13 ►
as Saudia Divinorum.
00:51:16 ►
Did you try it when you were in Mexico?
00:51:21 ►
No, we tried it.
00:51:22 ►
I got…
00:51:23 ►
Yes, yes, Saudia Divinorum, we tried it. I got… Now, yes, yes, we tried it.
00:51:26 ►
In Mexico? And did it work in Mexico?
00:51:28 ►
We tried, yes, yes, yes. It was a wonderful experience.
00:51:34 ►
It was a long thing. Finally, we got a shaman.
00:51:40 ►
It was a woman who could provide and make a session with this.
00:51:46 ►
And Dick, Gordon, my wife, and I, we took, we could get this.
00:51:56 ►
We had very smooth, smooth, but visions and optical visions with closed eyes.
00:52:03 ►
vision, some optical vision with closed eyes.
00:52:05 ►
And then…
00:52:06 ►
Was this similar to the LSD
00:52:09 ►
but milder?
00:52:10 ►
And then I isolated
00:52:13 ►
these principles
00:52:14 ►
and it was
00:52:15 ►
not of the salvia.
00:52:20 ►
I must go back
00:52:21 ►
to the…
00:52:22 ►
The salvia is what we
00:52:24 ►
found then that was the third drug.
00:52:28 ►
But before, I had investigated the seeds, the ololucleic.
00:52:35 ►
And that is very important now.
00:52:38 ►
The ololucleic seeds, which I got via Watson from Zapotec Indians,
00:52:48 ►
we found as active principle, listening good, lysergic acid amide.
00:52:56 ►
Very closely related, of course, to lysergic acid diethylamide.
00:53:01 ►
That means that that was an extraordinary result.
00:53:08 ►
Nobody believed it because lysogic agitators have been found only in fungi, in very low, in primitive plants.
00:53:20 ►
But olioquia are the seeds of flowering plants
00:53:25 ►
and that is a very
00:53:27 ►
excellent
00:53:28 ►
exception that you find
00:53:31 ►
the same active principles in fungi
00:53:33 ►
and in flowering plants
00:53:35 ►
and this lysergic acid
00:53:37 ►
amide and lysergic
00:53:39 ►
hydroxyamide which we find
00:53:41 ►
to be the active principles of
00:53:43 ►
olioquii
00:53:44 ►
shows us that LSD Hydroxyamide, which we find to be the active principles of ololukvi,
00:53:51 ►
shows us that LSD is not just a laboratory product.
00:53:57 ►
It is closely related chemically and pharmacologically, psychologically,
00:54:05 ►
with ololukvi, this old Indian magic drug, that means that LSD belongs pharmacologically, chemically
00:54:08 ►
to the group of the sacred
00:54:10 ►
magic plants of Mexico.
00:54:13 ►
It’s a very
00:54:14 ►
important finding.
00:54:16 ►
And they’ve made those plants
00:54:18 ►
outlawed in the United States now.
00:54:20 ►
Naturally.
00:54:22 ►
What do you mean?
00:54:24 ►
Those, the morning, the active
00:54:26 ►
morning glory seeds
00:54:27 ►
are not permitted to be brought into
00:54:30 ►
the United States.
00:54:32 ►
They have
00:54:32 ►
been used, used,
00:54:35 ►
tons of seeds have been used
00:54:37 ►
in hippies.
00:54:40 ►
Yeah.
00:54:41 ►
Yes, but it is not very,
00:54:44 ►
it tastes very bad and the effect is not very it tastes
00:54:45 ►
very bad and
00:54:46 ►
the effect is not so clear with LSD
00:54:49 ►
and I think it’s no more
00:54:51 ►
very often used
00:54:52 ►
but the Indians use it still
00:54:54 ►
the Indians use it still like
00:54:56 ►
they use
00:54:57 ►
they use mescaline or they use
00:55:01 ►
the mushrooms, they use also all the liquids
00:55:02 ►
that protects Indians especially
00:55:04 ►
and that is I think that is very strange or they use the mushrooms, they use also all the liquids. That protects Indians especially.
00:55:05 ►
Right.
00:55:09 ►
And I think that is very strange,
00:55:18 ►
that you find the same kind of LSA-like,
00:55:23 ►
very similar compounds to be the active principles of an old and of an ancient magic track.
00:55:28 ►
Now did you ever travel further down into South America or try Yahe or
00:55:36 ►
Ayahuasca, San Pedro? No, and never been more south than Mexico. I see what what were your feelings once when you were
00:55:49 ►
making these discoveries and they began to make it well let’s just say when
00:55:54 ►
people like Timothy Leary and Ken Kesey began to Ken Kesey with his pranksters
00:56:00 ►
and can get Timothy Leary obviously with tune in turn on drop out
00:56:07 ►
what were your feelings as the chemist who had created this was it good or bad
00:56:12 ►
I was quite astonished because when I had discovered these very deep
00:56:21 ►
effects of LSD which are not at all
00:56:25 ►
just a pleasure.
00:56:27 ►
It is always a confrontation
00:56:29 ►
with our
00:56:31 ►
deepest ego.
00:56:34 ►
I had the feeling,
00:56:35 ►
never believed that would
00:56:37 ►
be a pleasure to come on the street.
00:56:39 ►
Never had believed.
00:56:41 ►
And I was quite astonished, and I
00:56:43 ►
followed up this development, this
00:56:46 ►
very, I think, what happened here. And I, at the very beginning, I thought that it’s
00:56:51 ►
very dangerous what now happens in the United States, the Paganas State. And then it turned
00:57:01 ►
out that my fear was well-founded
00:57:06 ►
because so many people were not conscious of it.
00:57:09 ►
They did not respect the deep effects which Indians have.
00:57:16 ►
The Indians believe that you should take the mushrooms
00:57:19 ►
only if you are prepared by praying and by fasting and so on,
00:57:26 ►
then only the mushrooms bring you in contact with the gods.
00:57:31 ►
If you are not prepared, then it makes you crazy or you may even die.
00:57:38 ►
That is the belief of the Indians, based on thousands of years of experience.
00:57:43 ►
And what happened with the white man,
00:57:45 ►
he brings it on the street without preparation.
00:57:48 ►
And that was the tragedy.
00:57:51 ►
If it had been used carefully,
00:57:55 ►
then never we had had this scandal
00:57:57 ►
and never LSD would have been withdrawn
00:58:00 ►
also from the use in the medical field.
00:58:07 ►
But do you think when you now,
00:58:11 ►
we’ve gone through one hippie stage,
00:58:13 ►
and in fact, almost all of us came out of it all right, right?
00:58:19 ►
Yes.
00:58:19 ►
I do believe most of us came out better, not worse.
00:58:22 ►
I think so many, many people have contacted me and confessed that they had really
00:58:31 ►
very, very important experiences in their life, really.
00:58:36 ►
But although thousands have been brought into hospitals and clinics because of psychological breakdowns and so on.
00:58:50 ►
And that was the reason, finally the reason why it was withdrawn from the…
00:59:02 ►
from also
00:59:03 ►
that came
00:59:04 ►
then it was banned
00:59:06 ►
and
00:59:06 ►
the possession
00:59:08 ►
of
00:59:08 ►
and
00:59:09 ►
and
00:59:10 ►
fabrication
00:59:11 ►
possession
00:59:12 ►
and use
00:59:12 ►
completely
00:59:13 ►
prohibited
00:59:14 ►
and it was
00:59:15 ►
of course
00:59:16 ►
absolutely
00:59:17 ►
and
00:59:19 ►
what is the
00:59:20 ►
and
00:59:23 ►
we cannot understand that this would happen.
00:59:27 ►
That is not any logic.
00:59:29 ►
That if something does by unconscious,
00:59:34 ►
by unwise use in the streets,
00:59:37 ►
you forbid the use in the medical field
00:59:40 ►
where it never had done any bad.
00:59:53 ►
field where it never had done any bad. And I think, of course, LSD, the story of LSD is not yet finished at all. If we learn to use it really with respect and with the right
00:59:59 ►
conditions, I am sure the beneficial effects are
01:00:05 ►
enormous.
01:00:07 ►
Now we’ve got kids now, the new
01:00:10 ►
thing. Have you been following
01:00:12 ►
they call it raves
01:00:14 ►
or acid house
01:00:16 ►
where a lot
01:00:18 ►
of kids go dancing for two or three days?
01:00:22 ►
I did not hear about this, I don’t know.
01:00:24 ►
Oh, okay. How about, um, not long now, you’re being absolutely marvelous. Okay? Thank you
01:00:33 ►
very much, honest to goodness. I have a few more questions, but you’re being fantastic. in terms of its street use,
01:00:46 ►
some people are going to take it regardless, right?
01:00:50 ►
You could stand here all day and I could write all day.
01:00:53 ►
You should use this only in certain circumstances
01:00:56 ►
and you should blah, blah, blah.
01:00:58 ►
And kids will say, forget it.
01:01:01 ►
I know better, right?
01:01:03 ►
So I wonder, is there a simple, simple antidote for people
01:01:11 ►
who get a toxic reaction?
01:01:16 ►
Yes, but you need an injection. You get an injection with a tranquilizer. But milk did not work, for instance.
01:01:26 ►
Or niacin.
01:01:28 ►
They used to say that niacin
01:01:30 ►
would help, or chocolate, or milk.
01:01:32 ►
No, no, no, I think
01:01:33 ►
really
01:01:36 ►
tranquilizer, chlorpromazine or something
01:01:38 ►
is a very strong tranquilizer
01:01:40 ►
as
01:01:40 ►
injected.
01:01:45 ►
That interrupts the experience.
01:01:51 ►
But it also says that in psychiatric treatment,
01:01:59 ►
if there is a bad reaction,
01:02:02 ►
we should not interrupt it.
01:02:05 ►
If you care, it will pass.
01:02:11 ►
It is only dangerous if you are in a discotheque
01:02:18 ►
or something like, you have a horror trip,
01:02:21 ►
so then it is very dangerous,
01:02:22 ►
but it is important that you could stop it
01:02:25 ►
and make an injection
01:02:28 ►
of a tranquilizer.
01:02:30 ►
But that is…
01:02:32 ►
No, you can interrupt it.
01:02:34 ►
Right.
01:02:35 ►
No, I was hoping
01:02:36 ►
that there might be
01:02:36 ►
a simpler one
01:02:37 ►
for someone
01:02:39 ►
who reads this
01:02:41 ►
to say,
01:02:42 ►
who might do it anyway,
01:02:44 ►
that we give them an educational tool to help them
01:02:47 ►
if they make a mistake.
01:02:50 ►
And that it would be because, you know,
01:02:52 ►
we can’t carry around tranquilizer injection needles.
01:02:56 ►
So I was hoping something simpler like
01:02:59 ►
eat three chocolate bars and it will calm you down
01:03:03 ►
or take three niacin and wait ten minutes and you’ll calm down.
01:03:08 ►
But you know nothing of that sort.
01:03:10 ►
No, nothing of that sort.
01:03:13 ►
It helps to stabilize it, but then you have to say,
01:03:16 ►
do you need needles and so on.
01:03:17 ►
So you need the hospital, and the hospital itself is very scary
01:03:20 ►
if you’re having a bad time, right?
01:03:22 ►
And then you call, someone calls the police to bring you to a hospital, that would
01:03:26 ►
probably make it even worse.
01:03:28 ►
Yes, yes, yes.
01:03:30 ►
Yes, of course.
01:03:31 ►
But the best thing is, it is
01:03:33 ►
it is difficult
01:03:39 ►
to say, but
01:03:41 ►
you know, I have written
01:03:44 ►
also something
01:03:45 ►
then with
01:03:46 ►
Gordon
01:03:51 ►
about
01:03:52 ►
the mysteries of Elusis.
01:03:56 ►
Please talk about them, yes.
01:03:58 ►
And there
01:03:59 ►
we are convinced,
01:04:01 ►
and also the people who
01:04:03 ►
were working in this field,
01:04:05 ►
and there’s a problem of elusiveness,
01:04:07 ►
we agree that they had to use their holy potion.
01:04:12 ►
Them, all of Cynogen must have been,
01:04:15 ►
because they could induce vision with hundreds of people at the same time,
01:04:20 ►
all had the potion and that means that something and psychic active
01:04:29 ►
ingredient must have been there and there was a problem what could that have been
01:04:33 ►
and in any case we had some things and hypothesis is very good
01:04:40 ►
founded that some LSD like thing could have been there.
01:04:45 ►
Because special ergot,
01:04:48 ►
which grows in the Mediterranean basin
01:04:49 ►
in the environment of Eleusis,
01:04:53 ►
there grows an ergot
01:04:56 ►
which contains the same alkaloids as olioleuqui,
01:05:01 ►
namely lysergic acetamide and hydroxyethylamide.
01:05:04 ►
And the priest of Eleusis
01:05:05 ►
had only to pick up these
01:05:07 ►
grains of this special herb
01:05:09 ►
and grain it and
01:05:11 ►
put it in the salt in this
01:05:13 ►
potion and they had
01:05:15 ►
an LSD-like preparation
01:05:17 ►
and that is our hypothesis
01:05:19 ►
that this was
01:05:21 ►
the drug of Eleusis.
01:05:24 ►
But, I mean and I came that, I think that in the antiquity
01:05:31 ►
they had institutions where people who liked to have an initiation could go and have very
01:05:52 ►
could go and have very well-elaborated conditions to have a beneficial effect. But we have not this, we have not.
01:05:55 ►
It doesn’t exist.
01:05:57 ►
Because maybe that psychiatrist could provide in all in their, if they make their use as a tool in their
01:06:14 ►
like analysis or in psychotherapy, that they also prepare a setting which comes near to that which happens, even in Lewis’ work, is not the same, of course,
01:06:33 ►
in to have it a medical environment or purely spiritual.
01:06:41 ►
And that is a problem which is not solved in our society.
01:06:44 ►
and that is a problem which is not solved in our society.
01:06:53 ►
I think it is also probably your experience or your meaning not solved.
01:07:16 ►
I think the next step should be, and that is the reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonably be asked, that LSD and the psychedelics should be, should be available for the, in psychiatry.
01:07:24 ►
Should be legally
01:07:25 ►
available.
01:07:27 ►
As the doctors have access to morphine,
01:07:30 ►
they have access to cocaine,
01:07:32 ►
they have no access to LSD.
01:07:35 ►
This must be changed. That should be changed.
01:07:38 ►
And as soon
01:07:39 ►
and when LSD can
01:07:41 ►
also be legally used
01:07:43 ►
in medicine,
01:07:44 ►
it will be possible to accumulate more knowledge about how to use it
01:07:50 ►
and how to get the best of it.
01:07:54 ►
But you need a legal situation.
01:08:00 ►
Do you think that those of us like me,
01:08:10 ►
Do you think that those of us like me, I mean, do you think it was a grave mistake on our part to use it?
01:08:11 ►
No. I always took it seriously, but I never took it and said, oh, I should go to a party now.
01:08:17 ►
I always thought it should be done in the country with a good friend who was sober, not inebriated with, you know, LSD,
01:08:25 ►
and I always thought someone was there to take care of me
01:08:29 ►
if anything happened.
01:08:30 ►
But do you think, looking back 50 years,
01:08:33 ►
that it was a mistake for people like me?
01:08:37 ►
No, not at all.
01:08:39 ►
Not at all.
01:08:40 ►
We also, here, before it was banned,
01:08:43 ►
before this was illegal, we made here also, officially,
01:08:48 ►
and I have described it in my book also with writers and with friends, we made these sessions,
01:08:56 ►
which came in very, very, very important.
01:09:01 ►
No, no, I finally look back and say it was
01:09:05 ►
it was good that it happened
01:09:09 ►
the hippies
01:09:11 ►
period of
01:09:12 ►
of American
01:09:15 ►
history I think
01:09:15 ►
is very important
01:09:19 ►
and
01:09:20 ►
of course
01:09:23 ►
it could have been even better if it had not been used unwise and uncautiously.
01:09:33 ►
That was the, I think that was the disaster.
01:09:41 ►
disaster.
01:09:44 ►
And we had that.
01:09:46 ►
The bad reputation came from all these
01:09:48 ►
things which, when they failed,
01:09:51 ►
there were few, there were few
01:09:52 ►
compared with millions which used it
01:09:54 ►
in the good way. But
01:09:56 ►
these, that
01:09:57 ►
cases came to the mass
01:10:00 ►
media and gave
01:10:02 ►
that picture and
01:10:04 ►
yes, I I that is regrettable very regrettable
01:10:11 ►
he could have had another another development now are you familiar with Sascha Schulgen and the book Fikal?
01:10:25 ►
Yes, yes, I know him. He’s an old friend of mine.
01:10:28 ►
I think he’s marvelous. I like him a lot. He’s in this also. And his wife Anne as well.
01:10:34 ►
I don’t know him personally. I’ve never met him. I would have liked to have met him because I saw him in… You know there is a film that’s been drawn on LSD by the BBC broadcasting.
01:10:50 ►
Do you know?
01:10:50 ►
No, I don’t know this.
01:10:52 ►
About some, maybe some six, seven years ago,
01:10:55 ►
BBC made the film, twice 40 minutes emission,
01:11:00 ►
The Fall of LSD and the Rise of LSD.
01:11:03 ►
Mm-hmm.
01:11:04 ►
Very good film.
01:11:06 ►
And there is a long interview with Kishi.
01:11:10 ►
Very long, excellent.
01:11:12 ►
And also there is the very beginning
01:11:13 ►
that were made in
01:11:18 ►
the psychiatric experiments
01:11:23 ►
were filmed
01:11:25 ►
already in the 60s
01:11:27 ►
by some clinics in
01:11:29 ►
England.
01:11:31 ►
All these were in this film.
01:11:33 ►
And there I only know
01:11:35 ►
Kesey filmed this film.
01:11:37 ►
Right.
01:11:39 ►
Well, that’s Kesey,
01:11:41 ►
and I was thinking more of Shulgin.
01:11:44 ►
Kesey is also in this, and Kesey was crazy.
01:11:49 ►
Fun crazy.
01:11:51 ►
Yeah?
01:11:52 ►
Crazy?
01:11:52 ►
Fun crazy.
01:11:53 ►
Ah, fun crazy.
01:11:54 ►
Fun crazy, not bad crazy, I mean.
01:11:56 ►
Yes, yes.
01:11:57 ►
And he remains very fun and full, full, full of life.
01:12:02 ►
Yes, yes.
01:12:03 ►
Very.
01:12:04 ►
Yes, his interview also with BBC, he’s excellent, full of life. Yes, yes. Very. Yes, it seems to be also this BBC.
01:12:06 ►
He’s excellent.
01:12:07 ►
Brilliant.
01:12:08 ►
Yeah.
01:12:09 ►
And I think that,
01:12:12 ►
but I’m beyond cheesy
01:12:16 ►
with Sasha Shulgin
01:12:19 ►
and the book Fikaal.
01:12:21 ►
He’s giving out some recipes to people, right?
01:12:24 ►
Yeah. Fikaal. And what do you giving out some recipes to people, right? Yeah.
01:12:25 ►
Fical.
01:12:26 ►
And what do you think about some of the new analogs?
01:12:29 ►
Have you studied them or experienced and talked about them?
01:12:33 ►
Ecstasy, things like that, which really are in, as I said, I’ve never done ecstasy.
01:12:41 ►
And I don’t do chemicals now, but, you know, I’m a little afraid now.
01:12:45 ►
I’m getting too old.
01:12:49 ►
But I’m not sure if they’re made well, you know,
01:12:52 ►
so I don’t like to play if it’s not made well.
01:12:54 ►
I think all these new drugs,
01:13:00 ►
synthetic drugs are derivatives of mescaline or amphetamine.
01:13:07 ►
Between mescaline and amphetamine, it’s not like social gas.
01:13:11 ►
It’s quite different in chemistry.
01:13:14 ►
The chemistry is different.
01:13:17 ►
Both are derived from magic plants of Mexico.
01:13:24 ►
Mescaline is in the mescal bottom, the peyote.
01:13:31 ►
And LSD comes from the ololucle.
01:13:37 ►
And what does it say?
01:13:44 ►
Yes. What does it say? Yes, and the derivatives of mescaline,
01:13:51 ►
these are the new compounds which Shulgin, Sasha, has made.
01:13:56 ►
He has made hundreds of these derivatives of mescaline,
01:14:00 ►
combined with the structure of amphetamine,amine which closely related to mescaline.
01:14:08 ►
But they are different.
01:14:11 ►
I have tried ecstasy, and it seems to me different.
01:14:20 ►
It is different.
01:14:30 ►
and it is different. And pharmacologically also it is still in investigation, also toxicities still investigated. And it is more, it goes not so deep. Psychologically it is more and they tried also to give a new name and pathogenic or that that
01:14:49 ►
if you have the feeling to do that you must kiss so they embrace the whole world just
01:14:56 ►
this this kind of feeling it is not such as dramatic experiences
01:15:01 ►
this dramatic experience,
01:15:03 ►
this going deep
01:15:05 ►
and through the various stages
01:15:07 ►
of your psyche,
01:15:09 ►
it’s not the same.
01:15:11 ►
Mm-hmm.
01:15:13 ►
Do you…
01:15:14 ►
I’m sorry.
01:15:15 ►
It may be useful in medicine
01:15:17 ►
for certain treatments,
01:15:19 ►
I don’t know.
01:15:20 ►
We have no experience.
01:15:23 ►
At this stage,
01:15:24 ►
are you… Do you ever continue to experiment on yourself with LSD?
01:15:30 ►
No. Well, I took it many years, some years ago. It’s very special, in a very special situation in Mexico with friends. Years ago I was with friends in the mountains
01:15:50 ►
in south of Mexico near Jalapa and in a friend who had already experimented with drugs, the
01:16:00 ►
chemist and writer Jonathan Ott. And we were on the ranch there, which he named Olorukwi.
01:16:10 ►
And it was a wonderful full moon night and suddenly we said, now we must take LSD.
01:16:17 ►
And there were about six people, seven people. And there was music there.
01:16:27 ►
They had one of the friends,
01:16:31 ►
or the wife of Jonathan,
01:16:36 ►
this Indian dancer,
01:16:38 ►
for beautiful music.
01:16:39 ►
And then we took LSD,
01:16:41 ►
and we went out in the full moon night,
01:16:43 ►
and it was an incredible, wonderful experience.
01:16:48 ►
But I believe I don’t need to get new insights from LSD.
01:16:57 ►
Because I got it. I got it. I have the insight, I must do what Huxley wrote me in a letter, which I also printed
01:17:14 ►
in my book. Huxley wrote me, what you take in by vision, vision experience, you must
01:17:21 ►
give out by intelligence and love in daily life. And that is now the
01:17:27 ►
task which I try, and what I, the feeling to be a part of the universe which I got by
01:17:38 ►
the experience, this feeling does not, is always present in my life
01:17:46 ►
and therefore I don’t need
01:17:48 ►
to repeat
01:17:49 ►
and it is also the idea of
01:17:52 ►
Huxley when he wrote in his book
01:17:54 ►
Islands that three times in life
01:17:56 ►
you should take it
01:17:57 ►
and in antiquities he went once to allude
01:18:00 ►
to have the initiation
01:18:02 ►
and the vision
01:18:02 ►
and it’s not necessary
01:18:05 ►
it could
01:18:06 ►
maybe if you use it for
01:18:09 ►
just for
01:18:10 ►
a special experience.
01:18:14 ►
Yes.
01:18:15 ►
But in any case, I cannot understand
01:18:17 ►
people who take it hundreds of times
01:18:19 ►
take it over.
01:18:21 ►
It is known that it loses
01:18:23 ►
it loses
01:18:24 ►
the effect
01:18:26 ►
the
01:18:27 ►
potency
01:18:30 ►
it loses
01:18:31 ►
it is also experimental
01:18:34 ►
if you use it daily
01:18:36 ►
just on the first
01:18:38 ►
day is that no more
01:18:39 ►
any effect anymore
01:18:41 ►
on the fourth day you say?
01:18:43 ►
if you use it every day it On the fourth day, you say? If you use it every day,
01:18:46 ►
LSD,
01:18:47 ►
the second day it is no more so active
01:18:50 ►
and the fourth day it’s no active at all.
01:18:53 ►
You must stop
01:18:53 ►
at least one week to have
01:18:56 ►
the full activity again.
01:18:59 ►
That is
01:19:00 ►
quite different from
01:19:01 ►
all the other drugs which
01:19:03 ►
produce addiction.
01:19:10 ►
That is also very, very important, that there is no product, anything addiction, no addiction.
01:19:19 ►
And that is a very, very big difference, which in general also the health authorities don’t respect and don’t understand.
01:19:21 ►
That is a very, very important thing, because all the drugs which are a problem in society
01:19:27 ►
are addiction-producing.
01:19:30 ►
And addiction is a problem,
01:19:31 ►
not one experiment with heroin.
01:19:37 ►
It doesn’t matter anything.
01:19:39 ►
There’s nothing.
01:19:40 ►
But it is only dangerous because you become toxicomaniac,
01:19:45 ►
you become addicted and use it and destroy your health.
01:19:50 ►
That’s such a difference, an enormous difference
01:19:53 ►
in the character of these compounds, of these different drugs.
01:20:03 ►
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more.
01:20:06 ►
But I like
01:20:07 ►
what you said
01:20:07 ►
also about
01:20:08 ►
that you’ve
01:20:09 ►
already got
01:20:10 ►
it.
01:20:11 ►
What?
01:20:12 ►
I liked when
01:20:13 ►
you said
01:20:13 ►
you’ve already
01:20:14 ►
got it and
01:20:15 ►
you’ve got the
01:20:16 ►
message.
01:20:16 ►
Yeah.
01:20:17 ►
And now it’s
01:20:17 ►
a question of
01:20:18 ►
learning to
01:20:19 ►
bring that
01:20:19 ►
message from
01:20:20 ►
yourself.
01:20:21 ►
Yeah.
01:20:25 ►
Have you anything to say
01:20:26 ►
for…
01:20:28 ►
I mean, this is marvelous.
01:20:30 ►
I could talk all day,
01:20:31 ►
but this is a wonderful interview.
01:20:36 ►
Is there anything
01:20:38 ►
you would like to add?
01:20:41 ►
Just no.
01:20:44 ►
I hope that when we learn, Just know and then take off it.
01:20:45 ►
I hope that one will learn, make the time to use it in the proper way,
01:20:52 ►
and then I am sure it can open your doors of perception.
01:20:59 ►
Thank you. I knew you were fooling when you said your English was not good enough.
01:21:05 ►
No, it is.
01:21:07 ►
It’s marvelous.
01:21:10 ►
You have been pretending all these years.
01:21:13 ►
But I’m telling you, it’s very, very good.
01:21:16 ►
It’s fine.
01:21:17 ►
You made yourself as clear as you want to be.
01:21:20 ►
No, no.
01:21:21 ►
Finally.
01:21:23 ►
Maybe that I will learn it finally
01:21:25 ►
ok
01:21:31 ►
ok
01:21:32 ►
well thank you
01:21:32 ►
maybe that I meet you sometimes
01:21:34 ►
I would love to
01:21:35 ►
I would like it also
01:21:36 ►
thank you
01:21:37 ►
bye bye
01:21:38 ►
bye bye
01:21:38 ►
bye bye
01:21:38 ►
you’re listening to the Psychedelic Salon,
01:21:46 ►
where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.
01:21:52 ►
Like you most likely have done,
01:21:54 ►
I’ve read Dr. Hoffman’s little book, LSD, My Problem Child,
01:21:59 ►
where he writes about his discovery of acid.
01:22:02 ►
And I’ve heard him give a couple of speeches about it as well.
01:22:06 ►
However, I don’t know how you feel about it, but for me, this particular telling of that story in
01:22:11 ►
such a casual setting, even though it was over the phone, is the most intimate and wonderful
01:22:17 ►
telling of this tale that I’ve heard. This is simply a story being told by an 87-year-old man about a day in his life back when he was only 37
01:22:27 ►
years old. And while 50 years had passed since that day, it sounded to me as if those events
01:22:33 ►
were so permanently etched in his memory that he was telling us how it happened as if we were right
01:22:39 ►
there with him in the time. Peter, I can’t thank you enough for not only letting us hear this interview,
01:22:46 ►
but for the wonderful job you did in drawing Dr. Hoffman out of his scientific shell
01:22:51 ►
and letting us hear him as if he were our grandfather
01:22:54 ►
and we were hearing the stories at his knee.
01:22:57 ►
All I can say is bravo!
01:23:00 ►
Now, if you think back a little bit to where Dr. Hoffman mentioned
01:23:04 ►
how unhappy he was with the military testing LSD for warfare uses, well, I couldn’t help but remember that YouTube video of a group of British soldiers who were given LSD to see how they’d react in battle if they were under its influence.
01:23:25 ►
influence, and I’ve linked to it in the program notes for this podcast, simply for the fun of it.
01:23:31 ►
In case you haven’t watched that yet, it’s a minute and a half of good laughs for anyone who has had an acid trip. It ends with the narrator saying, but one hour and ten minutes after taking
01:23:37 ►
the drug, with one man climbing a tree to feed the birds, the troop commander gave up, admitting he could no longer control himself
01:23:45 ►
or his men. He then relapsed into laughter. It’s a great little British documentary about two and a
01:23:53 ►
half million people have already seen, and my guess is that virtually all of those viewers were,
01:23:59 ►
were, or are acid heads, and it seems to me that the result of this experiment was actually really positive.
01:24:08 ►
All we have to do is dose everyone in every army, navy, and air force around the world all the time,
01:24:14 ►
and we’d never have a war again.
01:24:16 ►
But in the interest of keeping a low profile,
01:24:19 ►
I certainly don’t recommend writing to your political representative and recommend that.
01:24:24 ►
At least not yet.
01:24:26 ►
My final comment about this wonderful interview is that I hope you go back and listen to Albert Hoffman’s advice about 47 minutes into the interview,
01:24:36 ►
where he talks about how the traditional use of these sacred medicines involves proper preparation and a proper setting for the experience.
01:24:44 ►
medicines involves proper preparation and a proper setting for the experience.
01:24:50 ►
And, you know, I can’t preach here because, as the goddess knows, I, for one, have certainly abused these precious substances in the past myself.
01:24:54 ►
I don’t anymore.
01:24:55 ►
Now I have these sacred experiences very rarely and never in a party situation, and always
01:25:02 ►
with rituals that I’ve developed on my own primarily, and that I don’t
01:25:06 ►
share, and I do it in private. But that’s just me. Maybe I’ve become more conservative in my use of
01:25:12 ►
these substances because I’m getting old. But I don’t think that’s it, because I have a lot of
01:25:18 ►
friends who are psychonauts, and we all seem to have gone overboard at first, then become a little
01:25:23 ►
more focused, and by the time we all had about 20 years or so of intensive use of these substances, well, we all seem to have backed way off, no matter what our age was at the time the 20 years or so ran their course.
01:25:37 ►
But, hey, don’t go by what I say. I’m just one guy, and your experience is going to be unique.
01:25:44 ►
I’m just one guy, and your experience is going to be unique.
01:25:49 ►
All I suggest is that before you decide to try anything, you first learn all you can about it,
01:25:55 ►
and when it comes to psychedelics, well, the first place to start, as you’ve heard me say over and over,
01:25:59 ►
is arrowid.org, E-R-O-W-I-D.org.
01:26:04 ►
The people who work on that website are friends of mine,
01:26:08 ►
and I’ll personally vouch for the integrity of the information that you’ll find there and there are very few places that I’d say that about
01:26:12 ►
now one last plug before I go and that’s for Peter Gorman’s website
01:26:17 ►
where you can find more information about his recent book
01:26:20 ►
Ayahuasca in my blood traveled the rivers and quaffed the brew with the best and the worst of them, and been way, way beyond the chrysanthemum on many a dark jungle night.
01:26:49 ►
This is the intensely personal story of an old-school jungle rat
01:26:53 ►
for whom ayahuasca is not just a hobby, but a lifelong quest.
01:26:58 ►
Well, I don’t know how you could get a better review for an ayahuasca book than that one,
01:27:04 ►
coming as it is from
01:27:05 ►
a fellow explorer and
01:27:07 ►
recognized expert in the field
01:27:09 ►
so if you’re looking for an interesting gift
01:27:11 ►
to give yourself or a close friend
01:27:13 ►
why not help us support Peter’s
01:27:16 ►
work as a way of thanking him for these
01:27:18 ►
wonderful interviews that he’s letting us play
01:27:19 ►
here in the salon
01:27:20 ►
well that’s going to do it
01:27:24 ►
for now and so I’ll again close today’s podcast by
01:27:27 ►
reminding you that this and most of the podcasts from the Psychedelic Salon are freely available
01:27:32 ►
for you to use in your own audio projects under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial
01:27:37 ►
Sharealike 3.0 license. And if you have any questions about that, just click the Creative
01:27:42 ►
Commons link at the bottom of the Psychedelic Salon webpage,
01:27:45 ►
which you can get to via psychedelicsalon.us.
01:27:49 ►
And if you’re interested in some of the stories that may or may not have led you to come to this moment
01:27:56 ►
where you and I are sharing a few thoughts together,
01:27:59 ►
well, you can read about a few of them in my novel, The Genesis Generation,
01:28:03 ►
which is available in Kindle and other e-book formats, as well as a pay-what-you-can audiobook read by me. And you can find
01:28:11 ►
out more about that at genesisgeneration.us. And for now, this is Lorenzo, signing off from
01:28:18 ►
cyberdelic space. Be well, my friends.