Program Notes
Guest speaker: William Radacinski
The last great mushroom conference of the millennium - Breitenbush, OR 1999
Date this lecture was recorded: June 2017
Wild Bill knows no bounds. A native of Queens and an explorer of psychedelic space, he is an old friend of Lorenzo who has some interesting experiences to share.
This is the first episode in our Psychedelic History Project featuring the voices of the people.
Wild Bill, Lorenzo & granddaughter Haylee
Wild Bill, Marycie, Lorenzo
Nick Sand and Bill Radacinski
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020 - New Drugs and Safe Parties
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in Psychedelic Salon
00:00:23 ►
2.0 and I’m really looking forward to listening to today’s podcast myself.
00:00:28 ►
It’s an interview that Lex Pelger did with my old friend Bill Radizinski,
00:00:33 ►
or Wild Bill as I like to call him.
00:00:35 ►
In previous podcasts, I’ve told the story of my first meeting with Bill in Palenque, Mexico,
00:00:41 ►
and, well, of various other adventures that we’ve had over the years.
00:00:44 ►
in Palenque, Mexico, and, well, of various other adventures that we’ve had over the years.
00:00:51 ►
However, I’ve never told any of the stories about us that also included our dear friend,
00:00:53 ►
Tom Seeger, Dr. Tom.
00:01:00 ►
And I’m sorry to say that, well, today’s not the day to tell any of those stories either.
00:01:06 ►
Instead, I am very sad to have to tell you, if you haven’t already heard,
00:01:14 ►
but this past Monday, our beloved Dr. Tom died. Perhaps one day there will come a time when many of the stories about Dr. Tom may be told, but that time is not now. What I can say, however,
00:01:21 ►
is that Dr. Tom’s contribution to the worldwide psychedelic community was tremendous.
00:01:28 ►
Tom enjoyed staying in the background, but he never made it seem as if that was his intention.
00:01:33 ►
When I recently went through some photos of some of the adventures that Wild Bill and Tom and I shared,
00:01:39 ►
I discovered that Tom was only in two of them.
00:01:42 ►
Somehow, without us noticing it, he seemed to avoid the camera.
00:01:47 ►
So, for now, I think it’s best that we keep his exploits and contributions out of the light for,
00:01:53 ►
well, for a little while longer. Hopefully, sometime after all of us graduates of the
00:01:58 ►
Palenque and Theobotany conferences are all dead and gone, well, maybe then there will be some young enthusiasts who
00:02:05 ►
uncover and publish the exploits of that unusual gang of misfits who played critical but unsung
00:02:11 ►
roles in many of the battles of this so-called war on drugs. And if those stories are told,
00:02:18 ►
you will find our dear friend Dr. Tom Seeger right at the top of the list of heroes who
00:02:23 ►
went above and beyond the call of duty to
00:02:25 ►
make this world a better place. Well, I’m sorry to have launched us into kind of a downer here, but
00:02:31 ►
particularly since this is to be Wild Bill’s day here in the salon. But since Bill was even closer
00:02:38 ►
to Dr. Tom than I was, I’m, well, I’m sure that he won’t mind. Now, getting on with the program,
00:02:41 ►
Well, I’m sure that he won’t mind.
00:02:48 ►
Now, getting on with the program, since I haven’t listened to this conversation yet myself,
00:02:53 ►
I don’t want to tell any stories here that, well, that maybe Bill has repeated in this interview.
00:03:01 ►
However, he may not mention his days as the unofficial in-house photographer at Allison and Alex Gray’s Cosm while it was still located in Manhattan.
00:03:03 ►
in Alex Gray’s Cosm while it was still located in Manhattan.
00:03:07 ►
And I should point out that way back in my podcast during the peak of the Occupy Wall Street movement,
00:03:10 ►
I interviewed Bill about what it was like to be on the ground
00:03:13 ►
during some of the big marches.
00:03:15 ►
And if you saw the Associated Press obituary for Nick Sand
00:03:19 ►
that came out not too long ago,
00:03:22 ►
well, that great photo of Nick Anusha was also one of Bill’s.
00:03:26 ►
So now let me get out of the way and turn it over to Lex Pelger,
00:03:30 ►
who I can actually picture sitting in Bill’s apartment in New York City,
00:03:34 ►
where I have also had some great experiences
00:03:37 ►
that still live as very fond memories.
00:03:43 ►
You know, with EboGain, I saw this is something that kind of grabs you by the balls and
00:03:48 ►
gets your attention and says, hey, Joe, this is your life, Jack. This is what you want to do.
00:04:01 ►
Welcome to the first broadcast of the Psychedelic History Project Thursdays,
00:04:06 ►
which is our working title for these segments.
00:04:09 ►
They will be stripped down, bare bones, no music, just letting people talk.
00:04:15 ►
And so there’s no one better I can think to start with than Old Wild Bill,
00:04:19 ►
a friend of Lorenzo’s who has seen many different worlds around the psychedelic community.
00:04:23 ►
And now I’ll leave him to tell you more.
00:04:26 ►
Hi, I represent what Lorenzo jokingly refers to me
00:04:30 ►
as the representative of blue-collar psychedelia.
00:04:34 ►
Because of that New York attitude.
00:04:38 ►
Just seeing the first time I was in San Francisco,
00:04:41 ►
I came to the first conference I ever attended
00:04:47 ►
out there and I came in with
00:04:49 ►
my, you know, just I guess brimming with
00:04:50 ►
New York attitude and you could see people edging
00:04:53 ►
away. They later
00:04:54 ►
got to know me better.
00:04:56 ►
But how I got into this, you know, back
00:04:58 ►
in the
00:04:59 ►
back in
00:05:02 ►
it had to be
00:05:04 ►
yeah it was
00:05:06 ►
spring of 69 in San Antonio
00:05:09 ►
Texas
00:05:09 ►
when my fraternity brothers said
00:05:12 ►
hey I got some
00:05:13 ►
whatchamacallit some synthetic mescaline
00:05:19 ►
which is outrageous
00:05:20 ►
because it wasn’t
00:05:22 ►
because synthetic mescaline is just too
00:05:24 ►
expensive to produce.
00:05:27 ►
So all I had ever done was pot.
00:05:34 ►
First thing I tried, though, was DMT.
00:05:37 ►
But I didn’t take it all in one shot.
00:05:40 ►
So I got about halfway to the door one night and laying in bed you know sharing a room my
00:05:47 ►
brother who’s asleep in the other bed and I didn’t get off and a couple months after that I wound up
00:05:52 ►
getting turned on to cannabis and I was having fun with it and then I went to school in Texas
00:05:59 ►
for two years in the last two years and in 69, fraternity brothers said, yeah, I’ll bring it
00:06:06 ►
over, we’ll turn on,
00:06:08 ►
you know, get about six, seven people, we’ll get
00:06:09 ►
high.
00:06:12 ►
Handed me the pill, and I figured
00:06:13 ►
I’d be full of apprehension and hesitating.
00:06:16 ►
I just took that sucker, popped
00:06:18 ►
it right in my mouth, and
00:06:20 ►
an hour later, I was just
00:06:22 ►
having a great, it was probably about 100
00:06:23 ►
mics, 125 mics, I figure about.
00:06:27 ►
They wanted to hang out and watch the walls breathe.
00:06:31 ►
And I’m saying, it’s a beautiful day outside.
00:06:34 ►
Come on.
00:06:34 ►
I went outside, got my bathing suit, went to the swimming pool, swam, walked around the campus and the gardens and stuff.
00:06:41 ►
It was beautiful.
00:06:41 ►
and the gardens and stuff.
00:06:42 ►
It was beautiful.
00:06:50 ►
And then I didn’t do much of anything for a while.
00:06:54 ►
Graduated, got drafted, wound up being serving.
00:06:55 ►
I was supposed to go to Vietnam.
00:06:57 ►
I had the orders changed, and I wound up in Berlin. And for a year and a half, I worked as the editor, command editor for the United States Army Birdland and Birdland Brigade.
00:07:12 ►
Had a nice, interesting job, office job, non-infantry.
00:07:15 ►
It was great.
00:07:17 ►
And we started getting a lot of, I started going, I got with a good group of people and started hanging out.
00:07:26 ►
And that’s when the really good acid was coming in.
00:07:29 ►
Sunshine was coming in from the States.
00:07:32 ►
Czechoslovakians were making acid.
00:07:35 ►
Students at the free university were making acid.
00:07:38 ►
And I started dropping.
00:07:42 ►
And bigger doses, much bigger doses
00:07:46 ►
and
00:07:48 ►
it was kind of like
00:07:50 ►
I described once before, it was like
00:07:52 ►
you know, I knew I was never going to be
00:07:54 ►
able to afford to go take a trip to Kathmandu
00:07:56 ►
or anything like that, do a tour of Europe
00:07:58 ►
so at least LSD gave me
00:08:00 ►
a chance to just do out of space
00:08:02 ►
so we would do these
00:08:04 ►
tremendous heroic doses.
00:08:08 ►
And so most of my LSD use, heavy LSD use, was in a year and a half period in Berlin.
00:08:18 ►
It was a very comfortable place to trip.
00:08:21 ►
It was a nice vibe.
00:08:26 ►
place to trip. It was a nice vibe. And when I came back to the States, I just kind of lost connection to the culture. And I was back to smoking pot and drinking beer just like everybody
00:08:36 ►
else. And this went on for probably about 10 years until in early to mid-90s. I was in San Antonio, Texas again with my wife.
00:08:47 ►
She was attending a board meeting or something.
00:08:51 ►
And I was just there for a week just to hang out,
00:08:53 ►
photograph, and visit old friends and stuff.
00:08:57 ►
And I walked into a convenience store,
00:09:02 ►
downtown San Antonio,
00:09:03 ►
and on the magazine rack,
00:09:07 ►
there was this magazine,
00:09:13 ►
and it had a big pink mushroom on the cover, glowing,
00:09:15 ►
and it was called Psychedelic Illuminations.
00:09:21 ►
And I may have it, it’s buried back here somewhere in my collection of stuff from my library.
00:09:24 ►
I got a library, a psychedelic library over there.
00:09:26 ►
I’ll show it to you later.
00:09:29 ►
And I picked it up, bought it, opened it up,
00:09:32 ►
and I’m reading about this guy, Terrence McKenna.
00:09:34 ►
I’m going, holy shit, people are still doing this stuff.
00:09:38 ►
You know, I was living on the East Coast.
00:09:39 ►
You know, you don’t know what’s going on.
00:09:41 ►
This has been going on the West Coast for some time.
00:09:44 ►
So I started reading it.
00:09:47 ►
And then I got a mailing from the Open Center, and I was looking through their stuff.
00:09:52 ►
And there was a guy, Terrence McKenna, who was showing I was going to have a workshop.
00:09:57 ►
So I signed up for a weekend workshop.
00:09:59 ►
I did two days with him.
00:10:01 ►
And he told us about a conference coming up in san francisco and that we ought to go to it
00:10:09 ►
and it’s a three-day conference and i did um that was in mid 90s
00:10:20 ►
and i saw carrie mullis did a you know, with a rock band. You had Jonathan
00:10:30 ►
Ott. You had all these people. Richard Schultes was supposed to show up, but didn’t quite
00:10:35 ►
make it. Had all these presenters and stuff. And I met these really great, really cool
00:10:40 ►
people. And on the seat where I was sitting,
00:10:45 ►
there was a little pamphlet and a brochure
00:10:48 ►
about an ethnobotanical conference
00:10:50 ►
being held in Palenque, Mexico.
00:10:56 ►
And I looked at it and said,
00:10:57 ►
this is interesting.
00:10:58 ►
So I got back home to New York,
00:11:00 ►
spoke to my wife,
00:11:01 ►
who isn’t into any of this stuff at all.
00:11:05 ►
And I said, yeah, this sounds interesting.
00:11:07 ►
She said, well, you got the money, why don’t you go?
00:11:10 ►
And so I did.
00:11:12 ►
I took the trip down to Palenque.
00:11:16 ►
And it was incredible.
00:11:18 ►
A week in that place, meaning that these things were legendary.
00:11:23 ►
They held two conferences one each
00:11:25 ►
each week it was uh i even knew one person went to both sessions uh he was a trust fund kid had
00:11:32 ►
nothing better to do with his life but i met an interesting bunch of people um and i said to
00:11:39 ►
terrence it’s like i went to a family reunion, meeting all these cousins that I had heard about, but, you know, I never knew.
00:11:48 ►
He said, well, welcome to our family.
00:11:51 ►
You know, that elf in the voice says, this is our gang.
00:11:57 ►
And that’s eventually, I went the following year, they went to Ushmal instead.
00:12:03 ►
And then the year after that, they went back to Palenque, which is where I ran into Lorenzo.
00:12:09 ►
And wound up introducing Lorenzo to his wife somehow.
00:12:15 ►
Mary C.
00:12:16 ►
Yeah, Mary C.
00:12:17 ►
Oh, that’s good.
00:12:18 ►
We all met down there.
00:12:19 ►
That was in 99.
00:12:22 ►
That was the last year I went.
00:12:24 ►
Because later that year, I got myself a heart attack
00:12:26 ►
and I kind of
00:12:28 ►
put a
00:12:28 ►
thing on things.
00:12:33 ►
But I was hooked and I had
00:12:35 ►
all these associations and all these people
00:12:37 ►
on the West Coast.
00:12:41 ►
To this day.
00:12:44 ►
Like I said, I flew out for the last conference
00:12:47 ►
because basically not only attend the conference,
00:12:51 ►
but see all these people I hadn’t seen in a few years
00:12:53 ►
and were really tight.
00:12:55 ►
And it’s a good crew,
00:12:56 ►
and it’s a completely different state of mind on the West Coast.
00:13:00 ►
You could not do what they did here in New York.
00:13:04 ►
You just wouldn’t be able to do it
00:13:06 ►
just not the place for it but that’s how i got back into this stuff and of course and also that’s
00:13:13 ►
about the time when i started to have a lot of problems with cognitive dissonance with my job
00:13:19 ►
as a parole officer and and senior parole officer working in within that deep bureaucratic state.
00:13:30 ►
And things just started going south, you know.
00:13:35 ►
What was it like to be doing these substances and then going back to that kind of work?
00:13:42 ►
and then going back to that kind of work.
00:13:47 ►
Well, but, you know, I really wasn’t doing anything all that, well,
00:13:50 ►
shrooms and stuff like that. Well, you have work here, and then you put all this other stuff over there.
00:13:55 ►
You carry some of the attitudes.
00:14:02 ►
I had what I call the curse of acid.
00:14:04 ►
Once you’ve done really deep trips, you get to hundreds of micrograms,
00:14:09 ►
and you see how the whole thing works together,
00:14:11 ►
and the idea of cooperation between things and how the flow works.
00:14:20 ►
You see the big picture.
00:14:22 ►
You cannot look at, I just can’t look at things like
00:14:26 ►
compartmentalized
00:14:28 ►
like a lot of the bureaucrats I work with
00:14:30 ►
just look at one particular thing
00:14:32 ►
you know you got to look at the big picture
00:14:34 ►
and you
00:14:36 ►
suddenly you look at the big picture
00:14:38 ►
and it’s all dysfunctional
00:14:40 ►
it creates
00:14:45 ►
problems
00:14:46 ►
it does create problems
00:14:48 ►
and it was working
00:14:51 ►
deep on a subconscious level
00:14:53 ►
with me and I was becoming more and more
00:14:55 ►
dissatisfied
00:14:56 ►
with just what
00:14:59 ►
attitudes
00:14:59 ►
and I tried dispelling
00:15:03 ►
fear
00:15:03 ►
dealing with the people I supervised, my parole officers,
00:15:10 ►
treating them like human beings and stuff, and getting away from that,
00:15:17 ►
if you don’t do this, you’re going to get punished type deal.
00:15:22 ►
Getting them to work in a more cooperative mode. a lot of them had never been spoken to that
00:15:27 ►
way and uh i also dealt with parolees that way a lot too and um it’s all informed by my my use
00:15:36 ►
of psychedelics opening me up to you know you got to open up a little bit here. You got to give a little bit. And I had one of my partners
00:15:51 ►
came up and said,
00:15:51 ►
you know,
00:15:53 ►
they have this image of you
00:15:55 ►
as being this real tough guy
00:15:56 ►
who kicks in doors.
00:15:57 ►
And I never kicked a door in my life.
00:16:01 ►
But you’re not like that at all.
00:16:03 ►
He says,
00:16:04 ►
you don’t lock people up a lot, do you?
00:16:06 ►
You know, you program them and stuff.
00:16:08 ►
I’m saying, yeah, because going to jail is a waste of time, quite frankly.
00:16:15 ►
So I just, we had a falling out,
00:16:20 ►
and so I went from, in my final years in a division I went from having
00:16:26 ►
a distinguished
00:16:28 ►
career to an extinguished one
00:16:29 ►
and in about an 18 month period
00:16:32 ►
they twice tried to fire me
00:16:34 ►
and
00:16:34 ►
it was just
00:16:37 ►
it was just
00:16:38 ►
I’ve been there too long
00:16:42 ►
and it wasn’t working and eventually
00:16:44 ►
I was able to retire and I crawl from the wreckage and stuff.
00:16:48 ►
Um,
00:16:55 ►
and it’s okay.
00:16:56 ►
You know,
00:16:56 ►
I,
00:16:56 ►
I,
00:16:57 ►
I guess I’m,
00:16:58 ►
um,
00:16:58 ►
I’m still here.
00:17:01 ►
I guess I’m still here,
00:17:03 ►
but it’s,
00:17:04 ►
it’s been, uh, it’s been tough coming back.
00:17:09 ►
I mean, kind of tough coming back from that.
00:17:12 ►
But having a sense of some community
00:17:21 ►
and some of the people in the psychedelic community,
00:17:24 ►
you know, help you get
00:17:25 ►
through that um boy i’m going down an alley down here that i don’t even want to go down anymore
00:17:31 ►
yeah we don’t have to it’s uh that that does sound like a tough turn though i mean that this
00:17:37 ►
would inform it to the end of uh of a career where you’re making a difference from within
00:17:41 ►
you know you yeah which is you know yeah really important. Yeah, I found that my biggest problem is when I went back into a supervisory position
00:17:50 ►
because as I was working on an individual basis, one-on-one with people,
00:17:57 ►
I actually did a lot more good.
00:17:59 ►
I did a lot more good because I wasn’t involved in programs and directing things and all that.
00:18:06 ►
Working on a one-to-one with people, I accomplished a lot more that way.
00:18:14 ►
And that way I could stay out of the view of the people up top who just want things done a certain way.
00:18:22 ►
And, you know, they used to think it was a little kind of strange
00:18:27 ►
because I would come up with, I remember one time I went to them
00:18:29 ►
and I said, I went to the personnel people and I said,
00:18:34 ►
you know, there’s an interesting,
00:18:37 ►
I had attended the International Ibogaine Conference at NYU.
00:18:41 ►
And I said, you know, in treating drug addiction,
00:18:44 ►
there are some very interesting
00:18:45 ►
new processes coming up that are pretty efficacious in treating heroin addiction and
00:18:53 ►
possibly cocaine addiction. And then even, I says, even if, you know, you had employees
00:19:01 ►
who were having problems. And then, you know, they looked at me like, and then I realized, oh, no, it’d be they had employees on cocaine.
00:19:08 ►
They’d just fire them.
00:19:10 ►
You suggested Ibogaine to your bosses for drug treatment people?
00:19:14 ►
Yeah.
00:19:15 ►
That’s great.
00:19:16 ►
You should take a look at it.
00:19:17 ►
Yeah, they should.
00:19:18 ►
Because it really works.
00:19:19 ►
Because I’ve seen the treadmill of people, you know, of coming programs if the programs and nothing is changing
00:19:26 ►
and you know with ebogaine i saw this is something that kind of grabs you by the balls and gets your
00:19:33 ►
attention and says hey joe this is your life jack this is what you want to do uh but well that’s
00:19:40 ►
too far out for those people like i said look at the medical marijuana program here in New York.
00:19:46 ►
I mean, I think they finally have added chronic pain onto the schedule.
00:19:51 ►
And it’s only edibles and oils.
00:19:55 ►
Nothing that you can vaporize or someone can smoke.
00:19:59 ►
And it’s really strict.
00:20:00 ►
And that’s all Cuomo.
00:20:02 ►
And that’s that provincial New York attitude you know and and that’s that provincial new york attitude
00:20:05 ►
and it’s strong among liberals especially they get really self-righteous when it comes to
00:20:13 ►
drugs yeah and stuff yeah it’s rather annoying they want to disown their own former abuse well
00:20:19 ►
yeah i did that when i was 19 but pots pots for kids. So you were
00:20:25 ►
saying that for these kind of medicines
00:20:27 ►
works, you just don’t want to be around New York. You now go
00:20:29 ►
other places. Yeah,
00:20:31 ►
it just doesn’t seem, I mean,
00:20:33 ►
I’ve sat up in this apartment and I’ve done
00:20:36 ►
mushrooms.
00:20:40 ►
This is a good place to meet a trip
00:20:41 ►
because it’s comfortable. It’s home.
00:20:44 ►
I feel pretty safe here.
00:20:48 ►
But I just don’t, and I’ve done substances out at parties
00:20:55 ►
and, you know, all-night painting parties and raves and stuff like that.
00:20:59 ►
I’ve done, you know, I’ve done some MDMA and stuff.
00:21:03 ►
I hung out with people. I had a good time.
00:21:06 ►
But it’s just there’s something about the vibe here
00:21:14 ►
that just doesn’t loan itself to doing heavy psychedelics.
00:21:20 ►
Now, like LSD, since the 70s when I did that year and a half,
00:21:24 ►
when I did all those
00:21:25 ►
megadose trips um getting back to the thing that saved my asses in the united states army library
00:21:32 ►
found two books the doors of perception by aldous huxley and uh the joyous cosmology by alan watts
00:21:40 ►
okay this is an army library And that’s what redirected my
00:21:45 ►
I stopped, realized that
00:21:50 ►
there’s more than just thrills and spills.
00:21:52 ►
It’s not just a wild rollercoaster ride.
00:21:54 ►
This is something much deeper.
00:21:56 ►
And then I started to do heavier
00:21:58 ►
trips and go in deeper
00:21:59 ►
into the parson. And
00:22:01 ►
began to get an amazing
00:22:03 ►
amount of benefit from from the acid uh but
00:22:08 ►
coming coming back here to new york i just don’t have that yeah just not that that same there’s not
00:22:15 ►
that same vibe here that says i want to do more so i do um i used to mock people who did what I call museum-level doses. Oh, 50 mics?
00:22:25 ►
Come on, you’re a wuss, man.
00:22:27 ►
Come on.
00:22:29 ►
You know, it’s 250 or nothing.
00:22:32 ►
And was I ever wrong?
00:22:35 ►
I was absolutely wrong.
00:22:37 ►
Because I found, I began to find benefit in what I call shine.
00:22:50 ►
Take about 50 mics you know just 50 mics or 60 mics a little you know up in that range it just adds a little shine to everything you know it doesn’t really
00:22:56 ►
fuck with your perceptions that much change it just adds a little shine a little a little shine, a little bit more there, there.
00:23:09 ►
And then that lets me,
00:23:14 ►
lets my imagination fill in the blanks and my own head come into it.
00:23:18 ►
And then I’ll go to a museum
00:23:19 ►
and I’ll really groove on the art or the architecture
00:23:24 ►
or I’ll go into a wooded area if I can.
00:23:28 ►
If I’m upstate or out on the island,
00:23:31 ►
I’ll go into a wooded area and just get into nature at 50 miles.
00:23:35 ►
It’s pretty nice because it just tweaks your perceptions a bit,
00:23:39 ►
heightens it a bit, and it’s a nice experience.
00:23:42 ►
And now I’m going to start experimenting with microdosing.
00:23:47 ►
Nice.
00:23:48 ►
And that I find very interesting,
00:23:52 ►
especially from what I heard on the results of all their research into that.
00:23:59 ►
That sounds like an interesting way to go.
00:24:03 ►
And let’s see what this is all about.
00:24:05 ►
You know, I have no desire to do 250 mics again.
00:24:09 ►
No desire to do 500 mics again.
00:24:12 ►
No desire to do 750 micrograms again.
00:24:15 ►
You know, stuff like that.
00:24:17 ►
I’ve done that by semi-accident.
00:24:22 ►
Those are good stories, too.
00:24:24 ►
Yeah, I’m really curious about these berlin times because
00:24:27 ►
it’s such a unique person i mean not only being within the army but seeing all this acid and all
00:24:31 ►
these plate places and people and oh it was you know i was going i was going to at school and i
00:24:36 ►
get my master’s degree at the same time and what doing all this uh education guidance and counseling
00:24:43 ►
yeah yeah i did that.
00:24:45 ►
My sergeant encouraged me to go.
00:24:47 ►
He said, come on, right?
00:24:48 ►
You got some time on your hands here?
00:24:50 ►
Do it.
00:24:51 ►
And so I did it.
00:24:54 ►
Actually, my experience in the United States Army was quite positive once I was overseas and there.
00:25:01 ►
I really liked the work I was doing.
00:25:03 ►
I liked the people I was working with,
00:25:05 ►
and I liked the way they respected your opinion.
00:25:09 ►
And it was really this thing of cooperation.
00:25:12 ►
Berlin was like Disneyland.
00:25:13 ►
If you fucked up, you were gone.
00:25:16 ►
You were sent to an infantry unit down in the zone.
00:25:19 ►
We called it West Germany,
00:25:20 ►
where you spent nine months of the year in the mud and the ice and the snow and the crap
00:25:26 ►
and the junk. So I had, it was nice, and there were a lot of highly intelligent people. And I
00:25:33 ►
was in headquarters companies, so I had all the, a lot of heads. There was a lot of it going around.
00:25:42 ►
But people had a sense of responsibility.
00:25:46 ►
You didn’t do it when you had work to do. You didn’t do it when you had duty.
00:25:49 ►
This was weekends only.
00:25:51 ►
Well, I did make an
00:25:52 ►
exception, and they had to say,
00:25:54 ►
Willie Red, you can’t do this stuff like candy, you know.
00:25:57 ►
And
00:25:58 ►
I didn’t, but
00:26:00 ►
there was
00:26:02 ►
a sense that we had a job to do,
00:26:05 ►
and we were so lucky we were not in Vietnam getting shot at,
00:26:09 ►
and then you compartmentalize,
00:26:12 ►
and then what you did in your own time was your own shtick.
00:26:18 ►
And it was good.
00:26:20 ►
I never had a bad trip.
00:26:21 ►
It was good-ass there.
00:26:24 ►
And like I said, the orange sunshine was coming in.
00:26:28 ►
But I’ll tell you, here’s a good cautionary tale about dosing and coming on.
00:26:38 ►
One afternoon, my trip buddy Mike and I and this guy Roger decided we felt like it was a beautiful day.
00:26:45 ►
Let’s go do some acid.
00:26:47 ►
We went downtown.
00:26:50 ►
Nobody around.
00:26:51 ►
We usually had a dealer.
00:26:52 ►
His name was God.
00:26:53 ►
He wasn’t there.
00:26:55 ►
The guy said, look, I’ve got four tabs of, I think it was four tabs of purple haze and three tabs of blue cheer.
00:27:03 ►
And that’s all I got.
00:27:04 ►
So we snatched them up.
00:27:06 ►
So we go back to our apartment.
00:27:09 ►
And we’re hanging out.
00:27:11 ►
And we decide to do the purple haze.
00:27:14 ►
So we each do a tab.
00:27:17 ►
And we have one tab left over we’re going to save for a friend of ours.
00:27:20 ►
So we’re sitting there.
00:27:22 ►
And we’re waiting.
00:27:23 ►
We’re all in our tripping chairs and nice overstuffed chairs chairs in our apartment and waiting for the stuff to come on. And
00:27:31 ►
Roger, who we didn’t know all that well, um, starts getting very fidgety, you know, and,
00:27:38 ►
uh, he starts breaking out a little bit of a sweat and he’s getting really intense. He’s
00:27:42 ►
making noises and he, and, um, we’re still waiting for stuff to happen nothing’s happening uh and a half hour
00:27:51 ►
into it suddenly he’s he’s saying this is really strong it’s coming on i’m going we don’t feel
00:27:58 ►
anything and he says you what he says no i says we I look at each other. We don’t feel a thing.
00:28:06 ►
He gets really disturbed about this.
00:28:08 ►
It gets more intense.
00:28:10 ►
And he’s obviously experiencing something.
00:28:13 ►
We’re feeling absolutely nothing.
00:28:15 ►
Okay?
00:28:18 ►
We’re into it for about an hour.
00:28:21 ►
And finally, he just freaks out.
00:28:22 ►
He says, you guys are fucking with me.
00:28:25 ►
You guys are fucking with me. You guys are fucking with me.
00:28:27 ►
He gets up, and he leaves.
00:28:29 ►
He never spoke to us again.
00:28:32 ►
We’re sitting around, and we’re waiting.
00:28:34 ►
We waited another half hour.
00:28:37 ►
Nothing’s happening.
00:28:38 ►
So we went, let’s break out the other stuff.
00:28:42 ►
So we each took a tab of that.
00:28:44 ►
And we’re sitting there.
00:28:46 ►
And in about half an hour,
00:28:47 ►
all of a sudden,
00:28:48 ►
we are like blasting off like gangbusters.
00:28:51 ►
I mean, unbelievable.
00:28:53 ►
We’re ramping up faster
00:28:54 ►
than anything we’ve ever experienced before.
00:28:57 ►
So we’re sitting there.
00:28:59 ►
And we’re just,
00:29:00 ►
it was wonderful.
00:29:02 ►
It was great.
00:29:02 ►
We’re having a great time.
00:29:04 ►
And finally, when we reach this kind of lucid moment,
00:29:08 ►
Mike says, that’s really powerful stuff.
00:29:11 ►
I said, you don’t suppose that maybe the other stuff really worked?
00:29:16 ►
He says, you know, maybe it was.
00:29:18 ►
It was just a late reaction.
00:29:21 ►
He says, I don’t know.
00:29:22 ►
I says, there’s only one way to find out.
00:29:24 ►
Let’s split the last tab and see what
00:29:27 ►
happens you know i was always up for that and so we take the other tab and then probably now i’m
00:29:34 ►
saying is what seemed like 15 minutes who knows at that point because we started like i said that
00:29:41 ►
was one of those short lucid moments when you’re in the trough between peaks
00:29:45 ►
and suddenly
00:29:47 ►
we’re just like wow
00:29:50 ►
the room goes out expands out
00:29:52 ►
like about three miles to the left and to
00:29:54 ►
the right and zaps
00:29:56 ►
back and we realize that what we had done
00:29:58 ►
is we’d just done
00:29:59 ►
we just
00:30:01 ►
Roger was uber sensitive to LSD
00:30:04 ►
he started coming on within 20 minutes to a half hour ingestion.
00:30:09 ►
We, an hour and a half later, were still not feeling anything.
00:30:12 ►
Had we waited maybe another half hour, it obviously would have developed.
00:30:19 ►
But we jumped.
00:30:20 ►
And, you know, it was, luckily we didn’t, you know, we were nice and safe.
00:30:24 ►
We had food, water, and provisions and stuff.
00:30:27 ►
And we stayed in weathered.
00:30:29 ►
Had a wonderful trip.
00:30:30 ►
But lost a friend, you know, a potential friend, which was kind of sad.
00:30:36 ►
So, yeah, that was Berlin.
00:30:41 ►
Lots of hash.
00:30:43 ►
Lots of great hash.
00:30:44 ►
Real hash.
00:30:47 ►
Yeah. And acid.
00:30:52 ►
And after the acid coming down from the acid, then the bowls would come out and you’d just fill a bowl of big chunks of hash and just pass the bowl
00:30:56 ►
around and just hum.
00:31:00 ►
Like I said, every trip I took in Berlin was just
00:31:04 ►
a magnificent experience.
00:31:07 ►
It’s a beautiful place.
00:31:08 ►
It’s a beautiful place.
00:31:10 ►
And a beautiful time.
00:31:11 ►
I’ve done acid out in the Grunewald.
00:31:12 ►
They have woods at Forest Avenue where they wild boar and deer.
00:31:15 ►
I walked into a herd of deer one morning strolling, you know,
00:31:19 ►
in the early dawn at about 5 in the morning.
00:31:22 ►
Sun is up.
00:31:23 ►
It’s summertime.
00:31:24 ►
Sun comes up early.
00:31:25 ►
And I’m strolling through a glade.
00:31:29 ►
And suddenly I look and there’s a deer in front of me.
00:31:35 ►
I stopped and I looked.
00:31:37 ►
And then I looked.
00:31:38 ►
At the corner of my eye, I noticed there’s one over here.
00:31:40 ►
There’s one over here.
00:31:41 ►
And I slowly turned around.
00:31:43 ►
There’s one back here.
00:31:46 ►
Tripping on probably 125 miles, I had just quietly walked into the middle of this herd
00:31:52 ►
of deer, and they weren’t disturbed in the least.
00:31:55 ►
And they just stood there and looked, and they were just quietly chewing away.
00:31:58 ►
And then I took a step towards one, and they kind of hopped, loped over about 50, 60 feet.
00:32:06 ►
So I walked up to them again.
00:32:08 ►
And I was just from me to you to the last deer when suddenly they wiggled their ears
00:32:14 ►
and they hopped a little further.
00:32:16 ►
So I followed them and I said, wait a minute.
00:32:18 ►
You’re going to get lost in the woods, Jack.
00:32:20 ►
You’re going to follow these guys all day.
00:32:22 ►
So I turned around and went back to where we were camped out.
00:32:26 ►
So yeah, I tie heavy LSD to my time in Berlin.
00:32:33 ►
And I really have no desire to do several hundred-mile trip again.
00:32:40 ►
Alan Watts’ old thing, you’ve got the phone call hanging up.
00:32:44 ►
After the call’s over, you’ve got the phone call hanging up. You know, after the call’s over, hang up the phone.
00:32:48 ►
I think that maybe had I kept it up during my employment, term of employment, you know, or at least light doses,
00:33:04 ►
I probably might have been a little more aware that I was involved in a bullshit game
00:33:10 ►
just keep your head down, don’t get involved
00:33:13 ►
don’t stand up and tell them that they’re full of shit
00:33:16 ►
and I would have just quietly gone out to do it without any problems
00:33:20 ►
but I didn’t
00:33:24 ►
yeah, so I have fond memories of psychedelics that’s great so yeah you
00:33:31 ►
got to see some great communities because then from berlin to palenque um was was palenque more
00:33:36 ►
about the for you more about the talking sometimes or there’s a good bit of experiments going on with
00:33:42 ►
oh there was people doing all sorts of stuff of Of course, we got down there, and I finally realized that there’s no problem
00:33:49 ►
bringing anything into Mexico.
00:33:51 ►
It’s just coming back into the States, you could have problems.
00:33:56 ►
So I got a little buzz.
00:33:56 ►
I got turned on to some marinal by a guy.
00:34:00 ►
It was interesting meeting the people.
00:34:02 ►
I met a lot of people who loved what they were doing for a living.
00:34:07 ►
And they were very fulfilled with things.
00:34:10 ►
And it was the camaraderie, the feeling that I belonged to this big family that was spread out all over the world.
00:34:19 ►
But it was a tight family.
00:34:21 ►
It was great.
00:34:23 ►
And the classes were informative,
00:34:25 ►
and I wanted to know more about plants
00:34:26 ►
and the relation of people to plants
00:34:28 ►
and the indigenous people
00:34:30 ►
and the old ruins and Mayan mythology
00:34:33 ►
and all this stuff, the whole thing.
00:34:36 ►
And the first year, I didn’t do that much of anything there.
00:34:40 ►
The second year, down in Ushmael,
00:34:46 ►
the odd thing, someone said it was a lot of people again
00:34:47 ►
hadn’t brought stuff they didn’t know that he could bring
00:34:49 ►
so I brought down a jar of holy shit
00:34:52 ►
which was my almond butter mixed with
00:34:54 ►
cannabis I brought down
00:34:55 ►
shrooms I brought down
00:34:57 ►
all sorts of stuff and when
00:34:59 ►
people want to go on party night someone says this is
00:35:02 ►
really weird that the one guy has all
00:35:04 ►
the stuff is the guy who’s a law enforcement officer
00:35:06 ►
but you know to me it was give stuff away you give stuff away so you you got to be the law
00:35:15 ►
enforcement guy sharing it palenque yeah well i used to tell i’m yeah, it was law enforcement, but I was kind of like an armed social worker.
00:35:28 ►
So I was big into the thing of programming people, putting them in, resolving things.
00:35:33 ►
But if they screw up, then I take out the handcuffs and the gun.
00:35:40 ►
That’s all there is to it.
00:35:42 ►
And I never had a problem with carrying a gun or anything like that.
00:35:45 ►
To me, it was just a tool.
00:35:47 ►
It may save my life.
00:35:50 ►
And you didn’t really use it to intimidate people to do anything,
00:35:54 ►
because that doesn’t work.
00:35:55 ►
Like I said, most of the time, I just talk to people.
00:35:59 ►
Give me a chance to talk to people for a while.
00:36:01 ►
I get them to do things like surrendering and coming in.
00:36:06 ►
That’s good.
00:36:07 ►
That’s a great lesson.
00:36:08 ►
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:11 ►
And then I just want to ask about the last iteration then about,
00:36:15 ►
because you mentioned ayahuasca’s importance, and how you came to the vine.
00:36:19 ►
Ah, okay.
00:36:24 ►
I had read about ayahuasca in a book by
00:36:26 ►
Peter Matheson
00:36:30 ►
at Playing the Fields of the Lord.
00:36:34 ►
I read about it and I said, this is fascinating.
00:36:37 ►
And then
00:36:37 ►
when I went to Palenque,
00:36:42 ►
the man who eventually became, I guess,
00:36:44 ►
we’ll call him my padron,
00:36:46 ►
did a presentation on mestizo ayahuasca.
00:36:56 ►
Not the ayahuasca of the deep jungle, which is usually a one-on-one thing
00:37:02 ►
between some native who’s is beset by
00:37:05 ►
ills and stuff this is the mestizos who’s kind of urban suburban type in
00:37:11 ►
between and did a great presentation and we talked about an ayahuasca we talked
00:37:16 ►
about about different things and this went on for four years and years and
00:37:23 ►
finally I was already I says you know maybe it’s time to try it i really want to
00:37:29 ►
try it and i was talking with a guy i was going to go help go down to the jungle with him and help
00:37:34 ►
he says what i do is i go down and spend a week or two down there making the stuff with this
00:37:40 ►
shaman making it he says and we drink it all day and we do it and he says and so i was
00:37:47 ►
thinking about that and i happened to call lorenzo and i was mentioning lorenzo i was thinking he
00:37:53 ►
says well you know so and so i won’t use his name you know he leads a group to peru every year
00:37:58 ►
they have medicine group you should give him a call you know and so i called him up and i said hey you know how’s it
00:38:07 ►
going i’m blah blah blah blah and he says you know well we usually take people into our los angeles
00:38:14 ►
meeting first and everything works out then we’ll we’ll take them to the to the jungle
00:38:21 ►
he’s but we’ve been talking about this for 10 years. And I’ve
00:38:25 ►
been trying to convince you to do it. So we’ll go ahead and waive that. And we’ll take, you
00:38:30 ►
want to pay the money and we’ll take you right down to Peru. And I went down there and I
00:38:37 ►
told you it was a very sparse experience. It, altogether I’ve done 15
00:38:45 ►
probably 15 sessions
00:38:47 ►
it is
00:38:51 ►
as I’ve said before
00:38:54 ►
to people it’s the only
00:38:55 ►
entheogen I know that gives homework
00:38:57 ►
it really does
00:39:01 ►
it does
00:39:02 ►
like I said I’m still working on my homework assignment from two years ago.
00:39:07 ►
I haven’t drunk the vine in two years.
00:39:10 ►
I found, though, that doing ayahuasca, I have a lot of respect for.
00:39:16 ►
Matter of fact, I get the willies.
00:39:19 ►
And it tastes, oh, it’s the most awful tasting shit on the planet.
00:39:27 ►
Which is one way, you you know people never abuse stuff you know um i approach it with with fear anxiety trepidation and i usually have a
00:39:40 ►
rough session because i do a lot of purging. Because I’m also, I absorb everything around me, all the vibes around me.
00:39:48 ►
So I have a lot of shit from working in the prison system for six years.
00:39:53 ►
And then 21 years in the street and parole.
00:39:56 ►
I have a lot of dark shit to work out.
00:39:58 ►
And it gets worked out.
00:40:00 ►
It gets worked out.
00:40:02 ►
I find I don’t remember a lot of the stuff I experienced, a complete blank. But after a session, I feel whole, clean, and I feel kind of impelled very gently to do certain things or not to do certain things.
00:40:21 ►
not to do certain things.
00:40:24 ►
When I started doing ayahuasca,
00:40:25 ►
I found that I was doing less of other things
00:40:30 ►
like 2C-B or MDMA.
00:40:37 ►
Stuff like that,
00:40:38 ►
I just was doing less of that stuff.
00:40:42 ►
And I was paying more attention
00:40:43 ►
to how I was conducting myself with people.
00:40:48 ►
And this is, and I’m not the only person who gets that feeling that they’ve been,
00:40:57 ►
they’re kind of getting tutored and living a different way.
00:41:01 ►
And I get that very strongly with the ayahuasca.
00:41:06 ►
Although I, like I said, I haven’t done it in about two years
00:41:08 ►
I may never drink it again
00:41:10 ►
although I just got noticed that my group
00:41:12 ►
is going to the Amazon again
00:41:14 ►
and I keep saying you know
00:41:16 ►
I would like to go down there
00:41:18 ►
and spend all that time
00:41:19 ►
even if I didn’t do ayahuasca
00:41:22 ►
just sitting in that tomba
00:41:24 ►
in absolute isolation in the middle of the rainforest is just such a mind-blowing experience.
00:41:32 ►
It’s just so different from here, from this.
00:41:36 ►
Complete opposite of this.
00:41:39 ►
I could see living and wearing nothing but a loincloth for a know, for a week and a half out there.
00:41:45 ►
And it’d be perfectly fine.
00:41:48 ►
You know, it’s just the way it is.
00:41:49 ►
You get very primitive.
00:41:51 ►
And you get stripped down to your bare bones.
00:41:54 ►
And then you do five sessions of ayahuasca on top of that.
00:41:59 ►
Let me tell you, man, your body is ready for it.
00:42:02 ►
It’s an open channel.
00:42:03 ►
And I’ve seen amazing…
00:42:07 ►
I’m sitting on the shitter.
00:42:12 ►
There are two outside the Maloka,
00:42:14 ►
which is the round building
00:42:15 ►
where we hold the ceremonies.
00:42:17 ►
And I run out to get my shoes on
00:42:20 ►
and run out to go with my bucket
00:42:23 ►
because sometimes you’re going to shit and puke at the same
00:42:26 ►
time, just in case.
00:42:28 ►
And
00:42:28 ►
I said, yeah, I need the bucket because I don’t want
00:42:32 ►
to vomit because other people are going to have to sit on this
00:42:34 ►
throne too. And I’m sitting there
00:42:36 ►
and I’m thanking the mother
00:42:37 ►
for my miserable condition.
00:42:41 ►
And at the same
00:42:41 ►
time, I’m laughing at, you know,
00:42:43 ►
I’m totally fucked up
00:42:45 ►
stretched out
00:42:47 ►
whacked out and here I am thanking the mother
00:42:49 ►
for all the shit
00:42:51 ►
that’s happening to me
00:42:52 ►
and I’m laughing
00:42:55 ►
and all of a sudden I notice the fireflies
00:42:58 ►
I think they’re fireflies
00:42:59 ►
I’m not sure
00:43:00 ►
these globes of light
00:43:01 ►
I can feel the forest leaning in on me I can feel the forest leaning in on me
00:43:05 ►
I could feel the forest leaning in on me
00:43:07 ►
and I see these great globes of light
00:43:11 ►
just slowly, quietly
00:43:13 ►
just floating
00:43:14 ►
through the air
00:43:16 ►
and they’re all around
00:43:18 ►
they’re bugs obviously
00:43:19 ►
maybe
00:43:21 ►
they’re bugs and they’re just floating there
00:43:24 ►
I’m just absolutely fascinated and then’re just floating there I’m just absolutely fascinated
00:43:25 ►
and then I finally finished
00:43:28 ►
what I’m doing
00:43:29 ►
I’m walking back and it was a very
00:43:32 ►
bright moon
00:43:33 ►
and I look down
00:43:36 ►
at the ground
00:43:37 ►
and I expect I’ll see the
00:43:40 ►
shadows of the plants and stuff
00:43:42 ►
on the ground
00:43:43 ►
but I don’t now what i see instead
00:43:47 ►
is you see the those patterns on the back of that chapobo shirt there yeah the chapobo shirt yeah
00:43:56 ►
the entire ground is it’s laid out like like a like like they just laid a blanket on top of everything.
00:44:08 ►
There are these, instead of seeing shadows of leaves,
00:44:11 ►
I am seeing these designs over the entire ground.
00:44:14 ►
Now, each one is supposed to be a door into another world.
00:44:17 ►
And I remember going back, look, I just got to get back to the Moloka.
00:44:19 ►
I don’t want to go to another universe.
00:44:22 ►
Tiptoeing through, going through. It was just amazing.
00:44:25 ►
And that was the night when, allegedly,
00:44:28 ►
he called down the UFO over the Moloka,
00:44:32 ►
but there was this buzzing sound,
00:44:34 ►
and it was just…
00:44:36 ►
He did something.
00:44:37 ►
All I can say is, Jose,
00:44:39 ►
it’s like he pulled back the veil
00:44:41 ►
from the universe
00:44:44 ►
and just showed us what was there.
00:44:46 ►
And you could hear everybody just going, wow.
00:44:50 ►
I think there was this great golden serpent gliding by.
00:44:55 ►
I’m not sure.
00:44:56 ►
It was just so mind fucking blowing.
00:44:59 ►
I don’t even know if I can contain it in my brain.
00:45:02 ►
But it was a beautiful experience, man.
00:45:06 ►
Wow.
00:45:07 ►
Beautiful.
00:45:08 ►
Wow.
00:45:08 ►
Although it beat the shit out of me.
00:45:10 ►
It was quite a beautiful experience.
00:45:13 ►
But, you know, a guy like me needs to be humbled every once in a while.
00:45:18 ►
And ayahuasca, she humbles you when you need to be.
00:45:26 ►
And I like that.
00:45:28 ►
I just wish she would taste better.
00:45:31 ►
I really do.
00:45:33 ►
Because there have been times
00:45:34 ►
when it’s so thick
00:45:35 ►
and before I’m halfway back to my seat
00:45:38 ►
I’m ready to heave it all back up
00:45:40 ►
and struggling to get it down.
00:45:44 ►
It’s good to pay for your fun a little bit.
00:45:48 ►
Thanks for that chair.
00:45:49 ►
That was the best pitch ever heard.
00:45:51 ►
So I guess I’ll just end with the last question I always like to ask.
00:45:55 ►
In whatever aspect it kind of –
00:45:58 ►
I ramble a lot.
00:45:59 ►
I get lost.
00:46:00 ►
Great.
00:46:02 ►
This is excellent.
00:46:03 ►
But I always like to ask, if you were put in charge of how these plant medicines and psychedelics are going out into the world,
00:46:10 ►
how would you regulate it? What kind of rituals would you like to see?
00:46:14 ►
Or how would you like to see it in your old job?
00:46:16 ►
What would you do if the world was ideal, if you could do the thing?
00:46:19 ►
Well, first thing I would do is I would hire Bob Jesse to organize that for me.
00:46:23 ►
Okay.
00:46:26 ►
Good call.
00:46:28 ►
One of the Sufi saints.
00:46:33 ►
I think the man in this, I call them Sufi saints.
00:46:36 ►
We have a panoply of people in that movement.
00:46:41 ►
They’re all mostly on the West Coast who have just been working so hard at these things and so consistently with so much integrity
00:46:46 ►
and stuff. And he’s one of them.
00:46:50 ►
He’s one of them.
00:46:51 ►
Shulgin’s are up there too.
00:46:55 ►
It needs…
00:46:56 ►
It needs…
00:46:56 ►
I used to talk with my friend John
00:47:01 ►
maybe about this all the time.
00:47:03 ►
He’s the one who described New York as the greatest mass hallucination ever perpetrated by Western civilization.
00:47:11 ►
He fled here.
00:47:12 ►
We talked about that.
00:47:13 ►
He said, do you really want it to be legalized?
00:47:15 ►
Do you really want it to be controlled by somebody else?
00:47:20 ►
I’m saying, well, as long as that somebody else is us, maybe that won’t be so bad.
00:47:24 ►
I’m saying, well, as long as that’s somebody else’s us, maybe that won’t be so bad.
00:47:34 ►
But it ought to be made available to people who want to try it. But there needs to be screening to weed out those people who should not do these things at all.
00:47:42 ►
those people who should not do these things at all.
00:47:47 ►
The people who are in a pre-psychotic state.
00:47:49 ►
It just hasn’t been triggered.
00:47:53 ►
Because this experience, like any traumatic experience,
00:47:54 ►
can trigger things.
00:47:58 ►
And there are some people that should not take it.
00:48:06 ►
Some way where people can be interviewed and found out if they’re suitable
00:48:08 ►
and then have a situation set up
00:48:12 ►
where they can do it safely
00:48:14 ►
with another person there.
00:48:17 ►
I, for one, do like to do my mushroom tripping
00:48:21 ►
pretty much by myself
00:48:24 ►
because I don’t want to do what anybody else
00:48:27 ►
is bullshit that’s why we do any ayahuasca sessions we’re always saying don’t get involved
00:48:32 ►
in what’s going on next door to you that’s their deal none of your business don’t get involved
00:48:38 ►
some safe place where people people can can can do it with it with friends or do it with someone else,
00:48:48 ►
but where they can do it in a safe space and talk about it.
00:48:52 ►
And you’ve got to throw some ritual in there, too,
00:48:55 ►
just to give it some shape and some form.
00:48:59 ►
People warm up to that, I think, a lot more.
00:49:02 ►
They feel safer with it being part of a formal thing.
00:49:09 ►
It’s tough because you want to control so it doesn’t get out of hand
00:49:14 ►
and go nuts and be abused,
00:49:17 ►
and yet you want it to be free enough
00:49:23 ►
so people can do it without any limitations put on them.
00:49:29 ►
I don’t necessarily think everybody would want to sit down
00:49:32 ►
in a special location with
00:49:36 ►
someone who’s trained. They just may want to go out and do it by themselves.
00:49:41 ►
It’s their kind of choice. I don’t know. It’s kind of difficult.
00:49:44 ►
I really couldn’t answer it in one thing.
00:49:46 ►
This is something that would have to be thrashed out among people over time.
00:49:54 ►
That’s why I would defer to someone like Bob Jesse,
00:49:56 ►
who probably has thought all this through and worked it out,
00:49:59 ►
and whatever he comes up with is what I would go with, pretty much.
00:50:04 ►
Well, great.
00:50:05 ►
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk today.
00:50:07 ►
It was really a pleasure.
00:50:08 ►
We’re going to give it to the mushroom experience up on Watley de Jimenez.
00:50:11 ►
That was another good story.
00:50:12 ►
We’ll do that some other time.
00:50:14 ►
Okay.
00:50:14 ►
I look forward to it.
00:50:16 ►
Awesome.
00:50:16 ►
Thanks so much.