Program Notes
Guest speaker: Shonagh Home & Neşe Devenot
We again join Shonagh Home and Neşe Devenot in a conversation centered on how plant and psychedelic medicines may used in ways that aid in healing and in improving self-awareness. Along the way we hear stories of some of the difficulties that they encountered not only as women in the psychedelic community, but also as young people coping with a rapidly changing world. And their discussion about ways in which some people use the power of psychedelics to manipulate (and in some cases even abuse) others is worth listening to more than once.
Shonagh Home
is a teacher, shamanic practitioner, and the author of
‘Ix Chel Wisdom: 7 Teachings from the Mayan Sacred Feminine,’
‘Love and Spirit Medicine,’
and the upcoming, ‘Honeybee Wisdom: A Modern Melissae Speaks.’
Website: www.shonaghhome.com
Contact: shonagh.home (at) comcast (dot) net
Neşe Devenot
is a founder the Psychedemia psychedelics conference and a PhD Candidate at the University of Pennsylvania, where she studies and teaches psychedelic philosophy and the literature of chemical self-experimentation.
Website: https://upenn.academia.edu/ndevenot
Contact: ndevenot (at) sas (dot) upenn (dot) edu
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space.
00:00:19 ►
This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:26 ►
Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon. And today we’re going to rejoin Shona Holm who is an author, a teacher, shamanic practitioner, and a doting beekeeper I should
00:00:32 ►
add. And joining Shona in this conversation are Neshea Deverno and Lily K. Ross. Now Neshea
00:00:41 ►
is the founder of the Psychedemia Conference, which we talked about in several podcasts way back, and a contributor to Reality Sandwich.
00:01:06 ►
telling me about herself she actually said she was a writer speaker and loudmouth which is something that not many people who have received a masters of divinity degree from Harvard would
00:01:11 ►
probably not say about themselves so you know that she’s got to be cool actually I think she
00:01:18 ►
is the first Harvard divinity student that we’ve had an opportunity to listen to here in the salon. Now, collectively, I don’t have a good title to apply to these three highly intelligent
00:01:29 ►
and truly fascinating women, but that won’t diminish the quality of the interesting conversation
00:01:35 ►
between them that you and I are about to sit in on.
00:01:38 ►
What I really enjoyed about listening to this conversation for the first time is how spontaneous
00:01:43 ►
it is.
00:01:45 ►
about listening to this conversation for the first time is how spontaneous it is. While they began with a specific objective in mind, the route that their conversation takes to reach this objective
00:01:51 ►
is fascinating, not only for its content, but for the seemingly capricious path that they take to
00:01:57 ►
get there, just like most conversations. Now, in the beginning of their conversation, when I heard
00:02:03 ►
Neche recalling her transition years from high school into college, she got me thinking about Transcription by CastingWords to Neche’s story early on in this conversation, and try to think of someone you know who may be in a similar situation,
00:02:27 ►
and then play this for them,
00:02:29 ►
or maybe even play it for the parents of someone who is going through a difficult time.
00:02:34 ►
Take it from this sometimes grumpy old man,
00:02:38 ►
growing old sucks,
00:02:39 ►
but it is orders of magnitude easier and a lot more fun than growing up.
00:02:45 ►
To be honest, I’m not sure that I could even make it through puberty again.
00:02:50 ►
Growing into an adult surely isn’t for sissies.
00:02:53 ►
But now let me get out of the way and turn the microphone over to Shona, Neshea, and Lily.
00:02:59 ►
Okay, so we are recording, and I am Shona Holm,
00:03:04 ►
and I am here once again with Michelle Devineau
00:03:08 ►
and Lily K. Ross.
00:03:10 ►
I’m very excited about the discussion that we are going to have, and we’re going to talk
00:03:16 ►
about the plant medicines as healing agents, which I think they were, well, I can’t even say they were intended to,
00:03:26 ►
because who put them here? The creator put them here.
00:03:29 ►
But they have been used traditionally as healing agents,
00:03:33 ►
but there is also a flip side to that as well,
00:03:39 ►
and they can also be used for mind control and warfare and other things.
00:03:50 ►
So we’re going to have to put all of that into a conversation here.
00:03:56 ►
And I am anxious to hear what we’ve got to say.
00:04:09 ►
hear what we’ve got to say. So maybe, can we maybe start with you, Nishay, and why don’t you lead us here on this interesting topic?
00:04:15 ►
Leading with my experiences with it?
00:04:21 ►
Whatever you think.
00:04:22 ►
Whatever you think.
00:04:24 ►
Okay, yeah.
00:04:33 ►
Well, when the topic came up in conversation earlier, I thought to share something that I’d never publicly shared before,
00:04:40 ►
which was that for a long time when people would ask me why I was studying psychedelics and why I was trying to, you know, help move this field and these movements forward,
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I would name sort of abstract philosophical reasons or things that were a little bit separate
00:04:53 ►
from myself.
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But actually, one reason why I, a major reason why I felt so passionately about pursuing
00:05:01 ►
psychedelics in graduate school was because they really transformed my life
00:05:07 ►
as I made the transition from high school into college.
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And so while I don’t actively,
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I don’t now take psychedelics because of the illegality of them
00:05:20 ►
and I have a son and it’s not worth the risk of it,
00:05:23 ►
I did have experiences in my early college years,
00:05:27 ►
which I got in trouble for in college
00:05:30 ►
and I had to write a research paper report,
00:05:34 ►
my first psychedelics research paper.
00:05:38 ►
But in between the transition from high school to college and high school,
00:05:43 ►
I was dealing with really,
00:05:45 ►
really intense, deeply crippling social anxiety and also obsessive compulsive tendencies.
00:05:53 ►
And I, to the point that I couldn’t, I would have panic attacks just going into the cafeteria
00:06:00 ►
or into hallways with lots of people.
00:06:02 ►
So I chose to eat my lunch in the bathroom for
00:06:06 ►
a year. And my obsessive compulsive tendency is like when I was in a grocery store and I had a
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thought that made me uncomfortable, I would feel like I would have to go and touch a certain cereal
00:06:17 ►
box or my notebooks from the time. I have sentences that were written and then rewritten over many
00:06:24 ►
times because if I had a thought that made me uncomfortable, I would have to write over the I have sentences that were written and then rewritten over many times
00:06:25 ►
because if I had a thought that made me uncomfortable,
00:06:27 ►
I would have to write over the sentence I had just written.
00:06:30 ►
And I did that with reading, too.
00:06:31 ►
And so all of these things were interfering with my ability to work.
00:06:35 ►
They were interfering with my ability to connect with people.
00:06:38 ►
And so when I was introduced to LSD in the beginning of my college years, I really kind of saw myself clearly for what I think was the first time, and I was able to process a lot of the things that had been leading to those tendencies. speaks really strongly for the healing potential of some of these chemicals
00:07:05 ►
because I wouldn’t be able to be doing the work that I’m doing and speaking at conferences
00:07:09 ►
and, you know, networking with people and getting my voice out
00:07:14 ►
if I still was dealing with those issues that I had in high school.
00:07:31 ►
Can you elaborate a little bit on exactly how did those experiences help you shift out of those behaviors?
00:07:37 ►
And also, were you using LSD or were you using mushrooms?
00:07:41 ►
Or what substance were you working with also?
00:07:44 ►
Yeah, in my case it was LSD. so not a synthesized chemical in this case.
00:07:48 ►
But I know that similar experiences can happen with other medicines as well.
00:07:56 ►
But for me, when I was in high school, I just felt really uncomfortable with who I was.
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And I had a sleeping disorder until I was halfway through high school
00:08:07 ►
my eyes sleep apnea and my um my tonsils were enlarged so I was never sleeping properly and
00:08:13 ►
I was really tired all the time and um I at the time I said my first two years of high school I
00:08:19 ►
got like d’s and c’s in my grades so then I had surgery to remove my tonsils and went from that to straight
00:08:26 ►
A’s, not only straight A’s, but I got, you know, student of the semester from, you know,
00:08:31 ►
almost all of my teachers.
00:08:32 ►
So it was this really dramatic transformation in terms of, like, and also along with that,
00:08:38 ►
when I had more energy, I lost 100 pounds, and like, and so there was a lot of really
00:08:43 ►
big change going on in my life and I
00:08:45 ►
didn’t really know you know I wasn’t really very in tune with myself and I also had in middle school
00:08:50 ►
I’d had lice for three years which as a middle school girl like that was like a really difficult
00:08:56 ►
thing for me so I just felt really bad about myself and kept trying to like fit in with
00:09:02 ►
everyone else and didn’t feel like I was doing that very successfully.
00:09:06 ►
So when I got in touch with myself through the LSD, like, I stopped judging myself from this imaginary outside perspective
00:09:13 ►
and started just learning more about who I was and being comfortable with who I was in my own body.
00:09:20 ►
And so it brought that experience, just brought all of that into your into your awareness
00:09:26 ►
i mean were you sort of did you feel like almost like you were being taught on that medicine in a
00:09:31 ►
way or or perhaps that it put you in touch with an inner teacher yeah well i i found this sort of
00:09:39 ►
like inner sense of calm and confidence and determination because before it was like I
00:09:46 ►
always had these almost like imaginary voices in my head of like thinking the people around me
00:09:52 ►
just were you know mocking me or just didn’t think that I was like good enough and I was
00:09:58 ►
always projecting this negativity like I was projecting that negativity was coming at me at all times and I I just the
00:10:06 ►
experience that I had a few experiences were so they were so compassionate and so um sort of I
00:10:14 ►
felt so optimistic kind of for the first time and I also I really saw psychedelics like as my path
00:10:22 ►
like fundamentally like I found when i first when i took them when
00:10:26 ►
i took lsc for the first time like i felt home like on a very fundamental level and i’m just
00:10:33 ►
reading ann and sasha shulgin’s peak all and and uh in ann’s section of the book she was talking
00:10:41 ►
about how when she first took masculine it felt like home to her it felt like something that on some level she had always known but didn’t know like hadn’t been there
00:10:51 ►
yet in that way but I think that there are some people that really resonate with the experience
00:10:57 ►
and I just found in finding my myself and finding my path like like I started to kind of calm down and not be so hard on myself.
00:11:08 ►
And that sort of was a self-reinforcing process over time.
00:11:13 ►
Yeah, I think my experience with these personal experiences is what I see these medicines as,
00:11:22 ►
having the ability to help us to make corrections within ourselves.
00:11:29 ►
And sometimes it’s just very kind of spontaneous or automatic,
00:11:35 ►
or something that we had carried some burden, it’s just lifted.
00:11:39 ►
But what I find is the greatest gift is the level of awareness that these medicines afford you.
00:11:50 ►
And that makes all the difference because, of course, you cannot make a correction or heal something
00:11:55 ►
if you don’t have really an awareness of the depth of that piece.
00:12:07 ►
the depth of that of that piece so it’s like having uh sorry to interrupt but it’s the thought it’s like having a wound somewhere where you don’t even know where it is and you can’t even see it
00:12:13 ►
because i wasn’t aware consciously of the negativity that i was stuck in i just like i felt
00:12:19 ►
it but i wasn’t i wasn’t sure where it was coming from or really why it was there. And so it gave me this sort of other perspective that let me sort of, like, look down on myself
00:12:30 ►
and really get that larger perspective that allows you to navigate more mindfully, like,
00:12:38 ►
through whatever issues you’re dealing with.
00:12:41 ►
Right.
00:12:42 ►
Right.
00:12:43 ►
Yeah.
00:12:49 ►
lives. Right, right. Yeah, it’s very interesting because when I worked with the mushroom, I did for over a year, very consistently, monthly, I just, I knew it was a portal and I healed so deeply
00:13:00 ►
wounds that I was carrying that was, you know, affecting my relationships, ultimately my life,
00:13:08 ►
and affected the way that I saw myself.
00:13:12 ►
And I too rarely work with that compared to the extensive use that I had at that point.
00:13:24 ►
use that I had at that point.
00:13:33 ►
But I’m really blown away by the healing ability of these medicines. And then, of course, you know, when I work with other people who have worked with these
00:13:38 ►
medicines in a very conscious way in terms of, you know, approaching them with the specific issue in mind,
00:13:48 ►
you know, then I help them integrate the experience.
00:13:52 ►
And the shifts that these people make are just incredible, incredible.
00:14:00 ►
So I think it’s really important to, you know important to talk more about that.
00:14:09 ►
And I don’t see these medicines as necessarily being sort of taken over by just the psychiatric community.
00:14:23 ►
I know they are really pushing to utilize these medicines,
00:14:28 ►
and I exercise a little bit of caution, or I feel a little bit of caution when I think about that
00:14:35 ►
because of the abuses of these medicines in the past by that very community, and not so long ago. And at the same time, you know, I actually know
00:14:45 ►
personally two therapists who very quietly work with these medicines
00:14:50 ►
with certain people in a really very conscious, amazing way
00:14:55 ►
and are helping people significantly, you know, make really profound changes.
00:15:00 ►
So, I mean, this is quite a powerful topic because it is, you know, on one hand,
00:15:07 ►
incredible mechanism for healing very deeply and changing your life in a very positive way.
00:15:13 ►
And then we have this other piece where these medicines are just absolutely abused.
00:15:20 ►
And so maybe on that note, I’ll turn it over to you, Lily, and hear your thoughts on this.
00:15:28 ►
Well, first of all, thank you, ladies, for the amazing story that you shared, Nishay,
00:15:34 ►
and Shauna for the insight and awareness that you’re bringing to some of this
00:15:39 ►
and the larger picture of what these medicines can do.
00:15:43 ►
As you’ve both been speaking, I’ve been jotting down some notes and things
00:15:48 ►
because I think there’s a lot in our language about these materials or substances that tells us a lot.
00:15:58 ►
For example, there’s a reason that the phrase under the influence exists.
00:16:02 ►
the phrase under the influence exists.
00:16:05 ►
You know, these are
00:16:06 ►
it’s the suggestibility
00:16:08 ►
and the malleability of psyche
00:16:10 ►
in these states of consciousness
00:16:12 ►
that makes them so powerful, makes
00:16:14 ►
them so effective as agents of
00:16:16 ►
healing and change and also
00:16:18 ►
makes them so dangerous
00:16:20 ►
when used for
00:16:22 ►
the purpose of manipulation or
00:16:24 ►
coercion or abuse in any way.
00:16:29 ►
You know, Nishay, when you were speaking, I found myself thinking about, you know,
00:16:35 ►
the names that we give to these materials.
00:16:37 ►
So you used the word psychedelic and Shauna used the word medicine.
00:16:43 ►
I’m inclined towards two different words for this whole category of chemicals and plants.
00:16:49 ►
One of them is agents and the other is materials.
00:16:53 ►
Because to me, you know, any one of these materials can be used for any number of purposes,
00:17:01 ►
whether it’s medicinal or recreational or, you know, what have you.
00:17:06 ►
But what I like about the term agents in some contexts is that it acknowledges a sort of agency
00:17:11 ►
of the chemicals themselves, which is a pretty far-out idea.
00:17:16 ►
I’ll be the first to acknowledge that.
00:17:18 ►
But I think it’s an idea that’s worth at least taking up into our hands and looking at,
00:17:24 ►
because, you know, Nishay, when I hear your story,
00:17:26 ►
I’m just reminded of the concept of intersubjectivity,
00:17:30 ►
how we are formed in our relationships to others,
00:17:34 ►
whether those others are persons or places or things or ideas.
00:17:39 ►
And it’s in our relationship to these different agencies,
00:17:43 ►
these materials, these psychedelics, these
00:17:45 ►
medicines, that I think provokes new levels of awareness and creates opportunities for
00:17:53 ►
change and transformation and healing.
00:17:55 ►
It’s got everything to do with who we are, with the agent or material that we choose
00:18:02 ►
to work with, and with our ongoing relationship to that material,
00:18:07 ►
which I think is really where a lot of the healing happens.
00:18:11 ►
I don’t know.
00:18:12 ►
I wonder if you ladies have any comments or ideas or critiques of what I’m saying here.
00:18:33 ►
Well, when you, that piece on aid agency, I see, I can really speak to just the mushroom,
00:18:37 ►
but I see that as a plant intelligence.
00:18:51 ►
I mean, it’s not a plant, it’s a fungus, but it is an actual intelligence. And truly, you know, we look at nature very superficially, very superficially. We look at a tree and say, oh, yeah, that’s a fir tree, and sort of leave it at that,
00:18:55 ►
or maybe we add a few more details.
00:18:57 ►
But that’s about it.
00:18:59 ►
And so I think what you’re saying is just fascinating because I see the mushroom as a teacher,
00:19:07 ►
as an ancient teacher and a great mystery.
00:19:12 ►
So my approach has always been to approach it with humility and to go in for a teaching,
00:19:32 ►
to go in for a teaching, which is why I speak to the more, shall I say, conscious use of these.
00:19:37 ►
I do think of them as medicines, but that is how I personally work with them because they have such extraordinary potential to shift and assist us on this life path.
00:19:48 ►
And so why waste that opportunity?
00:19:54 ►
And then also the suggestibility that you talk about, oh, yeah, oh, yeah,
00:19:59 ►
which is why for myself I’m so grateful that I went into this, you know,
00:20:05 ►
like I share in my book that, you know, I didn’t have a shaman to guide me.
00:20:08 ►
It was a dear friend of mine who had worked with these medicines,
00:20:11 ►
and the two of us agreed like, whoa, there’s no shaman to guide us.
00:20:15 ►
We’re on our own here.
00:20:16 ►
Well, we’re just going to have to bring all our integrity to the table here
00:20:20 ►
and do this, you know, in a sacred way. So that was our approach, and I received so much as a result of that.
00:20:30 ►
And so, yes, I have great respect for the mushroom,
00:20:37 ►
and I’m incensed at how abused these substances have been by, shall we say, opportunistic interests
00:20:47 ►
that are seeking to use them as suggestogens, shall we say, right?
00:20:54 ►
Yeah.
00:20:56 ►
And so that includes unscrupulous, which is a nice word, shamans,
00:21:04 ►
who are helping themselves sexually to women.
00:21:07 ►
And now when I, at the same time, I think we all need to exercise some intelligence and critical thinking and responsibility here.
00:21:21 ►
Because, you know, even like 10 years ago or whenever when I, you know, really started
00:21:27 ►
exploring this, I was thinking, oh, you know, these shamans, they’re so wise and they’re
00:21:33 ►
so connected to the earth and I was projecting this, you know, this sort of fairy tale image
00:21:42 ►
on these people, you know, and they’re people.
00:21:45 ►
And some of them are not so nice people or some of them are, you know,
00:21:48 ►
they have a different agenda just because they are a shaman wherever they are in the Amazon or, you know,
00:21:55 ►
Mexico or wherever or here in the States.
00:21:59 ►
And so, you know, we can’t just sort of throw ourselves at the feet of someone that we have not thoroughly investigated.
00:22:08 ►
And, you know, otherwise, you know, some of us, and I know you have your story to this,
00:22:14 ►
get, you know, in trouble and in serious danger, you know.
00:22:21 ►
So there is a great deal, I think, that we are learning, I think, as a group here exploring this, that we’re
00:22:29 ►
learning, you know, we’ve got to really apply some serious personal responsibility here and we are doing this with, you know, and, you know, what is
00:22:49 ►
it, there’s sort of a group involved, you know, what’s the group all about?
00:22:55 ►
Now, this is a really interesting, you know, area because there’s a lot of different approaches and ideas about how to manage the issue of abuse
00:23:07 ►
by persons in positions of power in an unregulated spiritual community,
00:23:13 ►
such as the global Ayahuasca community.
00:23:16 ►
And it’s really tricky territory for a number of reasons,
00:23:20 ►
including that there are many people that don’t feel that sex with a shaman is inappropriate.
00:23:25 ►
There are other people who feel that it is appropriate but aren’t willing to acknowledge it when it’s happening.
00:23:32 ►
And basically, I mean, I think we have to be very cautious of the idea also that by educating people
00:23:38 ►
and raising awareness and teaching people about boundaries and so on and so forth,
00:23:43 ►
and teaching people about boundaries and so on and so forth,
00:23:53 ►
that I think that that potentially moves us away from understanding that there are predatory people out there who are really good and that in some cases there’s no amount of education that makes people immune to the actions of these people,
00:24:02 ►
particularly if they’re in a suggestible state and somebody
00:24:05 ►
with great power is coming on to them, throwing all of this big sexual energy at them, causing
00:24:13 ►
sensations and feelings, natural feelings of arousal and attraction, and using, you
00:24:21 ►
know, this implicit narrative between, or kind of agreement between a healer and a person seeking healing
00:24:29 ►
that the healer knows something that the seeker does not,
00:24:33 ►
and the healer is saying that this is what the seeker needs to be healed.
00:24:37 ►
I mean, we’re talking about really massive, massive energies,
00:24:44 ►
and we’re also talking about a number of people
00:24:46 ►
unfortunately I don’t know the statistics I don’t think anybody does but but there are enough out
00:24:51 ►
there that we have to talk about it who are consciously using these materials as part of a
00:24:57 ►
larger strategy to you know ensnare abuse entrap and otherwise coerce individuals into you know, ensnare, abuse, entrap, and otherwise coerce individuals into, you know,
00:25:09 ►
inappropriate relationships, whether those are financial or sexual or emotional or whatever they might be.
00:25:16 ►
There are people that are doing this intentionally,
00:25:19 ►
and then there are people who maybe are doing it unintentionally and unconsciously,
00:25:23 ►
but still in a manner that is predatory and toxic.
00:25:28 ►
And the magnitude of the powers of these substances is what they’re using at their disposal to achieve these ends.
00:25:37 ►
And so it’s just so damn tricky.
00:25:40 ►
And I have to say, so few women have been willing to talk to me about their experiences in this realm of abuse.
00:25:47 ►
And I think part of it is because the confluence of all of these energies and powers and saying, yeah, but, you know, I was aroused.
00:25:55 ►
Of course you were aroused.
00:25:56 ►
This big, powerful person is coming on to you with all the sexual prowess that they’ve got.
00:26:01 ►
And you’re in an altered state on a material that’s famous for causing feelings
00:26:05 ►
of sexual arousal like you know but the shame that comes with that is so hard I think for a
00:26:12 ►
lot of people to overcome all right let’s stop there I want to know what you think
00:26:16 ►
that that was like so powerful I’ve never actually, heard that stated so explicitly, the connection between it’s still okay to stand up and say that something isn’t what you wanted, even if you did experience that arousal, which is a natural response, as you were saying.
00:26:40 ►
And I think it’s really important to get that, you know, out there more so that people can,
00:26:45 ►
I think it’s an important message to hear.
00:26:48 ►
Oh, yeah, well, rape victims, I remember reading this years ago, are one of the,
00:26:58 ►
they feel like a betrayal in their own body because they are having a sexual response to being raped.
00:27:06 ►
own body because they are having a sexual response to being raped, but it’s just like you were saying, Lily, but the body has such a natural response even if it’s being violated.
00:27:14 ►
So, yeah.
00:27:17 ►
Well, to me, too, this loops us back into this question or this conversation about these materials or psychedelics or medicine as powerful agents and a double-edged sword.
00:27:44 ►
know, some of these experiences in myself and in people I’ve talked to who’ve had similar experiences or different experiences in a similar vein is that, you know, in the case
00:27:51 ►
of sexuality, for example, we are talking about arguably the most powerful force in
00:27:59 ►
the human experience.
00:28:01 ►
It is the force by which we propagate our own species into the future.
00:28:07 ►
It’s the ultimate act of creation. Psychedelics or, you know, medicines or materials are very
00:28:16 ►
powerful in a different way, in a way that brings us into sacred communion with our world and our
00:28:23 ►
environment in a way that can cause healing.
00:28:27 ►
And I think, you know, what we’re getting at here is we’re talking about really powerful
00:28:32 ►
aspects of the human experience.
00:28:35 ►
I mean, we know that, you know, sexuality obviously is like a core part of humanity
00:28:39 ►
going back to forever.
00:28:41 ►
Psychedelic medicine, there’s more and more evidence, as we know, of, you know,
00:28:45 ►
different cultures making different attempts to alter their states of consciousness through
00:28:50 ►
fasting, through different rituals, through, you know, and then through these, imbibing
00:28:57 ►
these different materials. And it’s the power of all of these things that is so easily twisted and manipulated when in the wrong hands.
00:29:08 ►
You know, tool, etymologically the word tool talks about instrument, but also weapon.
00:29:14 ►
So it really is that full range.
00:29:16 ►
And I think this is a melting pot where we can really make some astute observations.
00:29:27 ►
make some astute observations, you know, by focusing on how humans relate to psychedelics,
00:29:32 ►
we can learn a lot about how humans relate to power is what I’m starting to kind of think.
00:29:34 ►
Well, yeah.
00:29:35 ►
Yeah.
00:29:42 ►
I mean, I also see why psychedelics have been used by those in power to manipulate through the ages.
00:29:43 ►
And, of course, why wouldn’t they? You know, because
00:29:46 ►
they’re highly effective. You know, if you’ve got a group together in some kind of a religious
00:29:52 ►
gathering experience and you pass out the sacrament, you know, you can use these substances for very deep manipulation on a large group of people who are, again, you know,
00:30:09 ►
very suggestible when they are under the influence.
00:30:15 ►
And anyway, and this is just what I find so frustrating because I just see so much profaning,
00:30:21 ►
and not just by sort of casual thrill-seekers, but, you know, by actual institutions that should know better,
00:30:30 ►
and one would like to think that they are, you know, here to sort of serve and protect and do right,
00:30:38 ►
and they are doing anything but.
00:30:41 ►
And my jaw just drops drops like this is crazy. And I really wonder, too, if, you know, I mean, these, I just don’t think the great majority of people are in this culture, modern culture, if you could even call it a culture, are even, you know, prepared for what these medicines bring, you know, for what these medicines can do.
00:31:07 ►
And yes, of course, there are many who have come to them, you know, completely bright-eyed
00:31:12 ►
and bushy-tailed and have changed their life in a very positive way.
00:31:16 ►
And that’s great.
00:31:18 ►
But I just think for the most part also, you know, there’s no touchstone for this kind of thing in this culture.
00:31:27 ►
And so there’s, you know, next to no sort of proper preparation for this experience,
00:31:35 ►
and not just for the experience, but then how do you integrate this experience afterwards?
00:31:40 ►
How do you bring it into your life in a reflective way, right?
00:31:48 ►
Because another thing that I noticed with the ayahuasca culture is this trendiness to it.
00:31:55 ►
And then these ayahuasca people you’ll talk to, and, yeah, they’ve done it, the medicine,
00:31:59 ►
a hundred times, 150 times, you know, and I’m like, what?
00:32:04 ►
You know, I mean, are you just sort of seeking this peak experience now?
00:32:09 ►
Or, I mean, you know, like what has this medicine done for you?
00:32:13 ►
Well, that reminds me of something I was thinking about when Lily mentioned that a lot of the healing happens in the ongoing relationship to the materials. I was hoping we could talk a little
00:32:25 ►
bit more about that at some point, because just the different models of, like, having an ongoing
00:32:32 ►
relationship versus the more, like, Alan Watts, like, hang up the phone when you’ve heard the
00:32:37 ►
message model. And in the current, you know, psychedelic psychotherapy studies, it’s more of that, like, you know, you take the MDMA
00:32:45 ►
or psilocybin, you know, one or a few times, and then the idea being that you don’t need to take
00:32:51 ►
it anymore once you’ve done the processing. So, yeah, I’m just curious what you all think about
00:32:57 ►
that. Lily, go ahead. I think in general, it’s a choice that each person makes for themselves.
00:33:09 ►
And I think it’s a choice that is best made when one is willing to be critically self-reflective
00:33:16 ►
and say, you know, is this, why am I doing this?
00:33:21 ►
Is now the right time for me to do this?
00:33:24 ►
Do I have the time and the space to really integrate what I experience and learn?
00:33:29 ►
You know, it’s like I so often hear the prayer of, you know, may I let go of what no longer serves me.
00:33:38 ►
You know, and I feel like that’s a common prayer for people that are maybe doing this, you know,
00:33:44 ►
working with these medicines on a very regular basis.
00:33:47 ►
And for me, I’m like, is that really all you’ve got?
00:33:51 ►
Like, I mean, what a luxury to just be able to walk in with this totally vague, like,
00:33:57 ►
I just want to let go of what no longer serves me.
00:34:00 ►
To me, like, that’s a, I don’t understand the point of that question.
00:34:06 ►
I mean, the way that, and this is my, you know, to me, it’s like if you, if you walk
00:34:11 ►
in with a very targeted reason and a very targeted question, a very targeted, you know,
00:34:18 ►
area or maybe two or three areas for inquiry and transformation and growth, you know, the
00:34:24 ►
more, it’s like a, it’s like a dissertation, you know, the more, it’s like a dissertation,
00:34:26 ►
you know, the more you can focus in that core question that you’re writing 400 pages about
00:34:32 ►
for the next five years, the more fruitful that writing is going to be.
00:34:37 ►
I think the same is true for how, you know, how to best approach medicine experiences
00:34:44 ►
for best benefit.
00:34:46 ►
And maybe somebody is going through a phase where, you know,
00:34:49 ►
they can come in with a super targeted question every single week
00:34:53 ►
because they’re working through this massive trauma
00:34:56 ►
and they’re going to work it every week for two months.
00:34:59 ►
Or maybe they’re going to go in once a year.
00:35:01 ►
I mean, for each person it’s different.
00:35:04 ►
But I think, you know, really being
00:35:07 ►
willing to say, you know, is this what I need? Am I state dependent? Am I thrill seeking?
00:35:15 ►
You know, what is this really about? Is now really the time? And listening for that inner
00:35:21 ►
guidance is, I think, absolutely crucial because it’s going to look different for everybody.
00:35:27 ►
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:28 ►
Yeah, and the experience is as unique as the individual, you know, taking that journey.
00:35:39 ►
That is for sure.
00:35:41 ►
That is for sure.
00:35:49 ►
Well, that mentioning getting in touch with the inner voice is something that interests me in light of our conversation about manipulation,
00:35:54 ►
and it also touches on issues related to delusions based on psychedelic experiences and you know I’m I’m curious
00:36:05 ►
whether
00:36:06 ►
there is a way
00:36:07 ►
to
00:36:08 ►
to practice
00:36:10 ►
discernment
00:36:11 ►
of
00:36:12 ►
you know
00:36:13 ►
what is actually
00:36:13 ►
coming from yourself
00:36:14 ►
versus
00:36:15 ►
what is
00:36:17 ►
some kind of
00:36:18 ►
like external
00:36:18 ►
external agency
00:36:21 ►
or
00:36:21 ►
you know
00:36:22 ►
something that’s not
00:36:23 ►
coming from yourself
00:36:23 ►
and
00:36:24 ►
because I’ve seen people get very confused based on, like, they’ll feel like something is something they need to do,
00:36:38 ►
but then it ends up hurting them and not actually being productive or they’ll have some thought process on psychedelics
00:36:47 ►
that they’re convinced that, like with the messianic kind of complex that a lot of people go through.
00:36:55 ►
So, you know, what is the best way to distinguish between what is actually getting in touch with yourself
00:37:03 ►
versus getting caught up in delusions or manipulations.
00:37:12 ►
That’s really good.
00:37:14 ►
Real quick, when you just mentioned briefly this sort of messianic complex,
00:37:34 ►
complex, that also feels to me like, you know, that, again, with no sort of preparation before taking these medicines,
00:37:43 ►
then the ego is at risk of just absolutely just taking the ball and running with it.
00:37:47 ►
And I talked to someone who said, yeah, I thought I was Jesus.
00:37:51 ►
And then I got off the medicine and I still thought I was Jesus.
00:38:00 ►
And whereas when I’ve spoken to a number of women and a few of the guys I’ve spoken to who do work with the medicine in the way that I’m speaking to,
00:38:05 ►
what they walk away with is a greater desire to be in service.
00:38:13 ►
And these are people I see who have that ability to have an experience like that
00:38:21 ►
and then apply some critical thinking, you know, to when they are working later with the imagery or, you know, what they took from it.
00:38:31 ►
And we talked about this a little bit in the last conversation that we had around that piece that, you know,
00:38:45 ►
that piece that, you know, about working with it maybe as a dream, you know,
00:38:53 ►
and taking what you experienced as sort of looking at it as sort of metaphorically and what it is trying to teach you.
00:38:56 ►
And then there are others who do for whatever their maturity level or whatever,
00:39:02 ►
they just don’t have that ability and they fall into this complete, you know, deluded, whatever the delusion is.
00:39:10 ►
They are not able to separate that from, you know, sort of we’re back in the 3D here, you know.
00:39:18 ►
So, you know.
00:39:22 ►
This is such an interesting question, and I have two thoughts.
00:39:25 ►
One of them is a teaching that my teacher has been, you know, kind of gave me a while ago that I’ve been working with for quite a while,
00:39:36 ►
which is, you know, find the place in you that knows.
00:39:40 ►
Which is, to me, a question about finding the place inside my own body
00:39:45 ►
where I can really just tune straight into that place and ask, you know, what’s true?
00:39:52 ►
What’s the real guidance here?
00:39:54 ►
And from the same teacher I’ve gotten the teaching of, you know,
00:39:58 ►
if it’s really a message from on high, it’s usually really frickin’ practical
00:40:03 ►
and has direct action steps.
00:40:07 ►
Oh, amen to that.
00:40:09 ►
You know, which I think is really fantastic and totally wonderful.
00:40:16 ►
Also, you know, it’s like how many times have maybe people in the community been
00:40:21 ►
approached by somebody who thought they were attractive, who was saying, my guidance is telling me that you and I are supposed to be together and heal our blah,
00:40:30 ►
blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:40:31 ►
And it’s like, well, I’m glad that’s what your guidance is telling you, but if you’re
00:40:34 ►
going to pursue me, I want it to be your choice, you know?
00:40:39 ►
So there’s that layer of it, too.
00:40:42 ►
The other thing, kind of touching on, Shauna, some of what you were saying, I started a podcast recently called Across the Threshold that you can listen to through my website.
00:40:51 ►
And my first guest co-host is a man named Caspian Collins.
00:40:57 ►
And what we’ve been talking about for the first two episodes is the prevalence of personality disorders in fringe subcultures,
00:41:06 ►
prevalence of personality disorders in fringe subcultures where there seems to be a higher population of persons with some disordered thinking than in mainstream culture, which
00:41:13 ►
is also linked into the idea that, you know, pathology and mysticism have historically
00:41:17 ►
kind of gone hand in hand.
00:41:19 ►
But the point that I want to get to is that, you know, we live in a world where people
00:41:24 ►
don’t really have,
00:41:25 ►
a lot of people have had stunted ego development from childhood trauma or critical failures of empathy.
00:41:32 ►
And a lot of people that are inclined towards really radical and alternative forms of healing,
00:41:39 ►
they’re a self-selecting population of people that really are, you know, in need of some kind of change,
00:41:45 ►
sometimes even on the level of their identity.
00:41:49 ►
And they’re a population that might maybe be a little more prone than the average American
00:41:57 ►
to narcissistic tendencies and delusions of grandiosity and omnipotence and some of these narcissistic features.
00:42:07 ►
I mean, surely some of the figureheads of the psychedelic movement over the last 50 years
00:42:13 ►
have demonstrated intense narcissistic traits and characteristics and personalities.
00:42:19 ►
So it’s very common, and there’s some great thinkers out there with a whole lot of experience,
00:42:26 ►
even researchers who are on government funding in Latin America and such,
00:42:30 ►
who say, you know, you’re going to probably get one in every bunch who goes out
00:42:35 ►
and has the super grandiose thing going on and comes back with this kind of narcissistic tendency.
00:42:45 ►
And it takes a lot of, you know, skill from a guide to bring that person back to, you know,
00:42:51 ►
you’re not an eagle soaring over the canyon.
00:42:54 ►
You’re a human being and you just shit yourself.
00:42:59 ►
So it’s complex.
00:43:02 ►
And I think, you know, there’s limitations to talking about this in the framework of, you know, mental health from a Western perspective,
00:43:10 ►
but I think there’s also something to be gained by at least indulging some of those ideas.
00:43:16 ►
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:30 ►
talk the other day with this woman who is Cree, and she carries peyote medicine, and she is a leader in her community, and I attended a beautiful ceremony last year of 55 women
00:43:37 ►
that she led, and, you know, what I admire so much about where she comes from with the medicine is that there is a lineage there.
00:43:51 ►
There is a heritage.
00:43:52 ►
There are elders.
00:43:53 ►
There are elders in that community.
00:43:56 ►
So there are these wise guides for those who come in to engage the medicine, you know, and I just, I see that as the missing piece, like you were just saying, that, you know, there is, you know, they’re missing this person who can then, you know, speak with them about the experience and revisit it and sort of assist them as they, you know, call up the parts that were significant
00:44:28 ►
that they want to understand more deeply.
00:44:32 ►
And so, you know, I think when I think of like, okay, Shauna, why are you outing yourself like that,
00:44:38 ►
you know, with a book and everything?
00:44:40 ►
I mean, I’ve been very forthright about this in an atmosphere where, you know,
00:44:44 ►
we know so well that stuff isn’t legal and whatnot.
00:44:47 ►
But as a woman at 51 now, I just feel like it is necessary that there be some voices out there offering,
00:44:58 ►
just simply offering some wise guidance as to how to maybe approach these medicines
00:45:07 ►
and to approach them with care,
00:45:10 ►
and then also how to work with yourself after you’ve had the experience.
00:45:18 ►
And there just isn’t enough of that, and I just see, you know, just a lot of usurping of this.
00:45:26 ►
And, you know, like I said, just going back to the psychiatric community because, you know,
00:45:31 ►
well, I will give you an example.
00:45:33 ►
So I went to NAPS last April, and I listened to a lot of these guys,
00:45:38 ►
and one guy was some New York psychiatrist.
00:45:40 ►
I don’t remember his name.
00:45:42 ►
I wouldn’t say it if I did.
00:45:43 ►
But in any case, he gave a talk, but at the beginning of his talk, he had on his screen an image of all
00:45:51 ►
these faces of all these men who made contributions to this area, and then he says, almost patronizingly,
00:45:59 ►
oh, now I know the women want to have their representation as well. So I compiled this.
00:46:05 ►
And so he shows another screen, and it’s faces of women who are known in this area.
00:46:14 ►
And so Donia Maria Sabina’s face is there.
00:46:18 ►
And then he couldn’t say all the women’s names because there were too many faces.
00:46:23 ►
But one of the women he highlighted was Dr. Loretta Bender.
00:46:28 ►
And she is common knowledge that she experimented.
00:46:35 ►
She was a child psychologist.
00:46:37 ►
She experimented on children between 5 and 10 with LSD
00:46:40 ►
and gave it to them for days, weeks, months, and longer, and published her work in peer-reviewed journals.
00:46:51 ►
And so it’s that kind.
00:46:54 ►
And so, I mean, I struggled with, do I stand up right now and point that out to this guy?
00:47:01 ►
And I really wish I had.
00:47:03 ►
And I was so upset.
00:47:04 ►
and point that out to this guy, and I really wish I had, and I was so upset, and I sent that guy an e-mail to his New York office and just said, listen, you know,
00:47:12 ►
how could you not know that about that woman doing what you do?
00:47:18 ►
How could that not be common knowledge?
00:47:20 ►
So this is also something that that level of abuse has occurred. Well, that needs to be talked about and addressed and admitted so that it does not happen again because there has been horrific abuse of experimenting on human beings with, as we have been discussing in this conversation,
00:47:46 ►
these very, very, very powerful substances that most people do not have the wherewithal to even, you know,
00:47:53 ►
approach or work with properly.
00:47:57 ►
And so I’m just very weary about this as I see, you know, more and more of a move to, you know,
00:48:07 ►
be able to work with these medicines in that community.
00:48:09 ►
And I’m like, all right, but listen, we’ve got, you know, these guys who are, you know,
00:48:14 ►
putting quote-unquote whatever, researchers, doctors like that on, you know,
00:48:19 ►
featuring them as contributors here, and they were anything but.
00:48:23 ►
I mean, that woman should have been imprisoned.
00:48:26 ►
So this needs to be addressed as well.
00:48:32 ►
And so…
00:48:33 ►
Sorry?
00:48:34 ►
At what time and what years was this happening?
00:48:38 ►
This was in the 60s.
00:48:40 ►
This was in the 60s.
00:48:42 ►
So, or maybe late 50s.
00:48:44 ►
I know that they were doing a lot of experimentation with that in the 50s, 60s, and, of course, the military,
00:48:51 ►
and this is very common knowledge, was experimenting on their own soldiers.
00:48:55 ►
So then you think, okay, well, these are people in positions of great power and influence,
00:49:03 ►
and this is how they are treating human beings.
00:49:06 ►
This is how, you know, they are taking these substances and, you know,
00:49:11 ►
using them on people that they are supposed to be protecting and in charge of and whatnot.
00:49:17 ►
Well, not in charge.
00:49:18 ►
I hate to say that because, actually, these are public servants who are working for us.
00:49:22 ►
Everyone seems to have forgotten that.
00:49:21 ►
These are public servants who are working for us.
00:49:24 ►
Everyone seems to have forgotten that.
00:49:35 ►
But in any case, so yeah, I mean, you know, there is a pretty pervasive abuse of these medicines. And I don’t, I wouldn’t be naive to think that those people suddenly saw the light
00:49:40 ►
and all of a sudden now they’re going to use these for good.
00:49:47 ►
saw the light and all of a sudden now they’re going to use these for good so on the note of the the military research i just to bring up p call again uh sasha shulgin mentions over and over and
00:49:55 ►
over again that the cardinal rule he feels as a cardinal moral ethical rule is that you can never or should never give mind altering
00:50:06 ►
substances to people without their full knowledge and consent of what they’re
00:50:12 ►
doing and that doesn’t happen that didn’t happen with the law the military
00:50:16 ►
studies and you know so that’s something I think that is really important to to
00:50:23 ►
remember that people need to be, you know, informed going in
00:50:27 ►
and to, based on that information, be able to make a decision for themselves.
00:50:31 ►
And under that, he includes even, like, not pressuring people.
00:50:35 ►
Like, so, you know, if someone’s like, well, I don’t know, and then someone else is like,
00:50:39 ►
oh, but you really should, you really should, like, that even, he was recommending against doing that.
00:50:44 ►
Like, let the person come
00:50:46 ►
to it on their own terms at their own time.
00:50:50 ►
Yes, absolutely.
00:50:51 ►
Because that, I don’t know, I’m not sure, that’s your inner voice.
00:50:56 ►
That taught me to listen to you, right?
00:50:58 ►
That’s saying, you know what, I think I need to, you know, maybe not do this or maybe wait
00:51:03 ►
on this.
00:51:04 ►
And yeah, absolutely.
00:51:09 ►
Especially with these substances, that has to be listened to.
00:51:10 ►
Absolutely.
00:51:12 ►
Absolutely. So there is a need for, a great need for, what did I say, wise guidance, shall we say,
00:51:29 ►
guidance, shall we say, in the use of these medicines or psychedelics or agents, you know,
00:51:30 ►
whatever we want to call them.
00:51:35 ►
I think we can agree that they are just extraordinary.
00:51:37 ►
I think they are so, so, so powerful. I think that it’s like when something is that powerful or has that much potential, it makes it dangerous, right?
00:51:46 ►
Because it can be, it’s got that power to change, to either uplift and really assist people to become, you know,
00:51:57 ►
realized in many ways or, you know, to, it just can be used for evil, if you will.
00:52:06 ►
You know, it’s like I always want to make this plug,
00:52:10 ►
which is that when things are forced into the underground
00:52:13 ►
and when there’s an enforced silence around them,
00:52:17 ►
it really impedes the ability for regulation in broad daylight
00:52:21 ►
and education and the necessary, you know, information and guidance to circulate
00:52:29 ►
so that people can make informed decisions.
00:52:33 ►
Right.
00:52:34 ►
And, you know, for myself, I just, I would trust, well, I would trust some of the actual medicine women that I know far more quickly than I would, you know,
00:52:49 ►
an FDA-approved whatever or psychiatric whatever.
00:52:56 ►
So, yeah, just to take all of that as a caution to a question.
00:53:04 ►
So it’s a caution to a question.
00:53:10 ►
Nishay, why don’t you speak to this in terms of, you know, where is academics going with all of this?
00:53:20 ►
You know, what is the position of those in academics like yourself who are endeavoring to, you know, bring this discussion forward? forward well I think like in the in the humanities there is this tradition or
00:53:31 ►
culture of critical thought that does encourage people to ask the unasked
00:53:39 ►
questions and look into the taboo so in sense, there’s a lot of room for critical thinking about the psychedelic cultures
00:53:52 ►
and use of these agents and materials.
00:53:56 ►
But I would say the vast majority of people that are working publicly on the topic of psychedelics in academia are mostly in the sciences where they don’t have
00:54:07 ►
as much leeway to um sort of speculate and critique because they’re trying to work within
00:54:15 ►
they’re trying to be you know even more mainstream than the mainstream scientists they have to dot
00:54:23 ►
all their i’s cross all their T’s. They’re not trying
00:54:26 ►
to make waves.
00:54:27 ►
Actually the opposite.
00:54:30 ►
Like Jag Davies,
00:54:31 ►
he works
00:54:34 ►
for communications
00:54:35 ►
with the Drug Policy Alliance.
00:54:37 ►
He says that his job is to make
00:54:40 ►
drugs seem boring.
00:54:42 ►
I think that the scientists,
00:54:43 ►
they’re trying to do stuff that’s not very you know it’s moving forward at a stone
00:54:51 ►
slow and steady pace so but I can’t you know speak much to that world because I
00:54:56 ►
am so you know the humanities are so very different in the approach and the
00:55:01 ►
also the the freedom to explore into different ideas.
00:55:07 ►
Lily, any thoughts?
00:55:10 ►
Well, you know, I mean, this is really interesting to me because there is a medicalization of these materials happening that, you know,
00:55:20 ►
I know I have some mixed feelings about.
00:55:22 ►
I know a lot of other people have mixed feelings about.
00:55:22 ►
I know I have some mixed feelings about.
00:55:24 ►
I know a lot of other people have mixed feelings about.
00:55:30 ►
And one of the areas I think is really compelling for further research,
00:55:35 ►
and, you know, if I were provided the necessary sort of funding to do this,
00:55:40 ►
it’s something I’d love to take up, which is really the religious studies aspect and looking at the religious aspects of these communities and these experiences
00:55:45 ►
because I think that’s also a really important framework and there isn’t much work that’s
00:55:53 ►
been done for building that framework up and getting a sense of how to look at these materials
00:55:59 ►
in that kind of way.
00:56:00 ►
So I think that’s definitely something that’s missing, but it’s also fantastic
00:56:05 ►
to know that, you know, Nishay is doing the phenomenal work that she’s doing with, you
00:56:10 ►
know, rigor and passion and really, you know, making this effort with psychedemia and other
00:56:16 ►
events to bring psychedelics into humanity, into people’s awareness. I mean, that’s really
00:56:23 ►
it’s like the last five years that that’s been really done at all,
00:56:27 ►
as far as I know, since back in the day.
00:56:32 ►
So, Neshea, I just thank you for doing the work that you’re doing, you know.
00:56:38 ►
And, Shauna, you are doing something really amazing, too, of getting these voices of medicine women,
00:56:46 ►
you know, and wanting to give them a place to speak because, you know, those bodies of knowledge
00:56:50 ►
are just as important and valid and deep and interesting and rich and legitimate as the
00:56:57 ►
knowledge that’s coming out of our schools.
00:57:00 ►
So, you know, something’s happening, which is great.
00:57:04 ►
So, you know, something’s happening, which is great.
00:57:09 ►
But one thing that I, and definitely I wholeheartedly agree with all that,
00:57:12 ►
and thank you so much for your work as well.
00:57:15 ►
But one thing, just to mention the medicine women,
00:57:20 ►
I think it’s really important, super, super important,
00:57:25 ►
to be getting these voices and different perspectives into the conversation.
00:57:31 ►
But one thing that has come up for me personally, and I was reminded of it by Shauna’s comment about the separate slides for the men and the women working in the field.
00:57:37 ►
And one thing that I’ve tended to see is that, like, oftentimes women are brought in to events to speak about women’s
00:57:47 ►
issues specifically. Like, the men talk about general issues and the women speak about women’s
00:57:53 ►
issues, and that I find highly problematic. I think that it’s important to talk about women’s
00:57:58 ►
issues, but I also think that women need to be part of the general issues conversation as well.
00:58:04 ►
Women need to be part of the general issues conversation as well.
00:58:07 ►
Oh, yes, absolutely.
00:58:15 ►
Well, you know, when I spoke with this Cree woman, her name is Alyssa Mold Coyote.
00:58:32 ►
When it comes to women’s issues, I mean, she’s just talking about real life. She’s bringing forth a great deal of wisdom in a very simple way that we can all relate to, that we all need to hear whether we’re black or white or male or female or whatever,
00:58:40 ►
having nothing to do with gender, but sort of bringing it back to brass tacks in terms of, I think, you know,
00:58:48 ►
they sort of bring us back to what’s really important.
00:58:51 ►
And also the male wisdom keepers as well.
00:58:54 ►
I mean, I did have a journey on the medicine.
00:58:57 ►
You know, I speak with ancestors on that medicine,
00:59:01 ►
but the grandfathers came and they said, dear one, don’t forget about us.
00:59:05 ►
We have something to say as well.
00:59:09 ►
And so ultimately, you know, my feeling is in terms of, you know, getting those women’s voices out there,
00:59:18 ►
just, you know, to sort of bring us back to what is important.
00:59:23 ►
to sort of bring us back to what is important.
00:59:27 ►
Because I see, and Alyssa spoke to this as well,
00:59:30 ►
like our planet is being systematically decimated.
00:59:33 ►
I mean, she is in dire straits, you know. And that’s really ultimately what we need to address is how can we change our ways
00:59:51 ►
our ways and not be so caught up in this sort of, I think, artificial divisive agenda, you know, designed to sort of keep us bickering constantly.
00:59:54 ►
And meanwhile, you know, we’ve got really big, important things to work on here.
00:59:59 ►
And that ultimately, it’s hard to get a group together of people who are totally dysfunctional
01:00:05 ►
and will not own their stuff and constantly cause problems.
01:00:09 ►
You know, so I see ultimately these medicines as a way of healing agents to help you see your shadow
01:00:19 ►
and ultimately get your shit together so that you can go out there and make a difference
01:00:26 ►
and think critically and work with other people in a cohesive way and spot, you know, the bullshit and all of that.
01:00:36 ►
I mean, that is what we ultimately need.
01:00:38 ►
And that is what I see these medicines as being able to assist if used properly.
01:00:45 ►
Yeah, I love that.
01:00:46 ►
It’s like on a certain level, maybe the paradox is that it’s not really about the medicines at all.
01:00:52 ►
You know, it’s about what they’re teaching us and what they’re enabling us to go out into the world and do.
01:01:00 ►
It’s an interesting idea I like to toss around in my head sometimes.
01:01:07 ►
And Nishay, jumping back for a second to what you were saying about basically tokenism, you know.
01:01:15 ►
And many times I have felt like the token woman at the event, you know,
01:01:22 ►
where I was invited not because of my ideas and what it is, but the fullness of at the event, you know, where I was invited not because of, you know, my ideas and what it is,
01:01:27 ►
but the fullness of what I bring, but because of my genitals, you know,
01:01:32 ►
and as though I somehow am the representative voice of the feminine.
01:01:37 ►
Like, no, no, I’m a human just like everyone else,
01:01:41 ►
and I have more to speak about than women’s and feminine issues
01:01:46 ►
or questions or concerns or experiences.
01:01:49 ►
And so, you know, I mean, but it’s so pervasive.
01:01:53 ►
It’s so pervasive.
01:01:55 ►
And at this point, it’s like we can talk about it and we can laugh, you know,
01:02:00 ►
and we can create our own alternatives and, you know,
01:02:05 ►
and accept invitations when they come and, you know,
01:02:09 ►
fly in the face of what’s expected of us.
01:02:12 ►
Well, I think, you know, also the guys in the audience,
01:02:16 ►
a lot of them want to hear more women’s voices.
01:02:22 ►
They want that too.
01:02:23 ►
I mean, what shocked me the most
01:02:25 ►
when that little talk I gave
01:02:27 ►
went on Psychedelic Salon last year,
01:02:30 ►
oh my God, I heard from so many people, mostly
01:02:32 ►
guys.
01:02:34 ►
Really, really cool, great
01:02:35 ►
guys who wanted
01:02:37 ►
to initiate more of a dialogue and were
01:02:39 ►
really, really interested
01:02:41 ►
in what I had to say.
01:02:43 ►
And so, you know, they want that too.
01:02:48 ►
I don’t know who’s organizing these conferences.
01:02:52 ►
Well, here’s the other thing too, you know.
01:02:55 ►
I find a lot of the response that I get from different talks that I put out there
01:03:00 ►
or, you know, requests for testimonials, 98% of it is men.
01:03:07 ►
And I don’t understand that.
01:03:10 ►
I mean, I’m down.
01:03:11 ►
I want to be in conversation with all kinds of people, and I really appreciate their engagement
01:03:16 ►
and involvement in the conversation.
01:03:18 ►
But I just keep asking myself, where are the women?
01:03:21 ►
And why aren’t there more women that want to talk about these things?
01:03:26 ►
And, you know, what is this?
01:03:28 ►
You know, is there something I can be doing that’s more welcoming to women in the conversation?
01:03:32 ►
How do I encourage more women to get involved?
01:03:35 ►
Because I really want to be hearing from women about their experiences.
01:03:42 ►
You know what, I just have a sense that that’s going to change for you
01:03:45 ►
Lily I just do
01:03:48 ►
I also think with this exploration
01:03:53 ►
it seems to be that there are more
01:03:57 ►
guys exploring this than there are
01:04:00 ►
women exploring it I think that’s so at the same time the women who are exploring it. I think that’s so.
01:04:06 ►
At the same time, the women who are exploring it, they’re going pretty deep.
01:04:12 ►
And, my God, I mean, I would just, you know, I don’t know.
01:04:16 ►
I just get intuitively it’s just going to be a matter of months
01:04:19 ►
and you’re going to be, you know, in touch with a great many more women. Maybe they just, because I didn’t really know of you until Nishay told me about you, right?
01:04:30 ►
So it may be just a matter of sort of getting you before more of these women.
01:04:36 ►
Right.
01:04:37 ►
Hope so.
01:04:38 ►
I hope so, you know.
01:04:40 ►
I really, really do.
01:04:42 ►
Because that’s fundamentally, I think, what we’re up to even in this podcast, you know,
01:04:47 ►
is empowering women’s voices beyond their own and, you know,
01:04:52 ►
trying to encourage more women to enter into this conversation
01:04:56 ►
and be public with what they know and what they care about and what they’re thinking about
01:05:00 ►
because, you know, the world needs more women speaking out on all kinds
01:05:06 ►
of things, you know.
01:05:07 ►
So, you know, I think it’s really possible and I think this is, you know, this podcast
01:05:12 ►
is really a wonderful platform to begin to incorporate more voices into at least our
01:05:19 ►
tiny little corner of the conversation.
01:05:23 ►
Yes, absolutely.
01:05:24 ►
Yeah, and voices that don’t really get heard otherwise.
01:05:31 ►
Yeah.
01:05:31 ►
You know, I mean, just, again, just to bring it back to this woman,
01:05:34 ►
Alyssa, I’m like, she doesn’t have any letters after her name.
01:05:38 ►
And, you know, you won’t hear her or see her on the conference circuit.
01:05:43 ►
You know, you’d be lucky if you come into contact with someone like that.
01:05:50 ►
And I just, you know, for me, those are the people I want to sit at the feet of these
01:05:54 ►
people who are really in touch with wisdom that I can then take from that and apply to my life and then share it in my way.
01:06:09 ►
I just think that is so hugely important.
01:06:13 ►
And that is the missing link, I think, with these medicines or agents.
01:06:18 ►
That is the missing link in our modern culture is we do not have those kind of wisdom keeper guides.
01:06:27 ►
And, well, hey, it’s illegal in this culture.
01:06:31 ►
So those good people would be, you know, thrown in jail if they don’t play their cards right.
01:06:38 ►
So it’s just a shame.
01:06:40 ►
And so we’ve just got these sort of architects of the profane, I call them,
01:06:48 ►
some of these, whatever, whatever, you know, who’ve got their sort of mitts in this, in the
01:06:53 ►
background, and, you know, CIA and otherwise, and they are just playing a very mean and very,
01:07:01 ►
I just think of these guys as sort of knuckle draggers. I mean, they’re shrewd, but it’s just like that has not evolved,
01:07:08 ►
and the human beings are capable of, in other words, we could create a heaven on earth.
01:07:14 ►
I mean, I really think that this planet, that this is the garden.
01:07:18 ►
We’re in the garden, and there’s a beast in the garden, and It’s a mind virus, you know.
01:07:25 ►
And so these medicines, you know, to speak on that level, I see it as the plant medicines,
01:07:33 ►
as Mother Earth calling her children back and saying, you’ve forgotten yourself.
01:07:38 ►
Come on now.
01:07:39 ►
Come back to me and remember who you are.
01:07:42 ►
And take good care of yourself. and take good care of each other,
01:07:46 ►
and stop getting involved in all these mental constructs.
01:07:50 ►
They’re just constructs.
01:07:54 ►
You know, ideologies and agendas, they’re not even real.
01:07:57 ►
You know, we come back to what is real.
01:08:00 ►
Come back to truth and kindness and taking care of each other.
01:08:06 ►
Because I really, I mean, I look at our society and I’m appalled.
01:08:10 ►
I really, I don’t like modern culture.
01:08:13 ►
I don’t like crowds.
01:08:14 ►
I just, I don’t like it.
01:08:16 ►
I don’t like, you know, the media, the government, all this stuff.
01:08:19 ►
I just shake my head.
01:08:20 ►
Because I can see, I can see through the maya of it.
01:08:23 ►
my head because I can see through the maya of it.
01:08:31 ►
So, you know, here we have these extraordinary substances.
01:08:38 ►
God knows, you know, the deep mystery to these substances that will afford us the opportunity, I think, to change on deep, deep levels that could affect the entire planet if allowed.
01:08:50 ►
And that’s what I would like to see,
01:08:51 ►
sort of call that back from those who have been using them in a destructive manner,
01:08:57 ►
call that back and say, mm-mm, mm-mm.
01:09:16 ►
You know, these are agents of healing and illumination and, you know, require good guidance, you know, from people with integrity ultimately. the conference circuit like the psychedelic conference circuit there’s a there’s a tendency
01:09:26 ►
to call on people who are already well established and partially to bring people in people want to
01:09:35 ►
buy tickets to see people they already know about but i feel like there’s less active
01:09:42 ►
searching to find people who are not yet plugged into that circuit.
01:09:47 ►
Sure.
01:09:47 ►
It’s easier to kind of call on the, you know, the list of names you already have.
01:09:54 ►
And so I think that part of the work is really being intentional about reaching out
01:10:00 ►
and asking through networks to find people that do, you know,
01:10:06 ►
are interested in coming forward and sharing what they have to say
01:10:09 ►
but just aren’t yet, like, known by the people who are putting a lot of these events together.
01:10:15 ►
Right, or wouldn’t even know themselves even how to sort of enter into the fray, you know,
01:10:21 ►
because they’re just not otherwise connected with that.
01:10:23 ►
They’re busy doing, you know, the work that they do.
01:10:27 ►
So, yeah, definitely will take a little added effort.
01:10:31 ►
But that is, of course, a very good point that they’ve got tickets to sell.
01:10:37 ►
And, you know, still you can have a couple of popular names
01:10:42 ►
and then throw in some really good gems in there
01:10:44 ►
and introduce people to, you know, some really good information.
01:10:49 ►
Yeah, I mean, that’s how, like, music festivals work.
01:10:51 ►
You have your headliners and then you have the, you know, maybe, like, less well-known acts.
01:10:57 ►
Right.
01:10:58 ►
Well, you know, I love what the Women’s Visionary Congress has been doing. I think that they have done a great job in bringing in a really nice variety of women.
01:11:14 ►
And they always have a few guys in there, too.
01:11:16 ►
The guys are great.
01:11:18 ►
But just in the two years in a row that I’ve attended. I was really, really blown away.
01:11:26 ►
And they had a couple of really amazing medicine women there,
01:11:29 ►
one who spoke two years in a row, who I just adore.
01:11:33 ►
And, yeah, we need more of that or we need more, yeah,
01:11:38 ►
more of that maybe kind of model as well.
01:11:41 ►
Right.
01:11:42 ►
Which is a great opportunity for a plug.
01:11:45 ►
There is going to be a Women’s Visionary Congress in Vancouver, Canada, coming up in this November,
01:11:52 ►
I think the 15th.
01:11:55 ►
Yeah, the 14th and 15th.
01:11:57 ►
And that’s going to be a really interesting confluence of thinkers.
01:12:02 ►
Some of the founding women from the WBC in the U.S. will be there.
01:12:06 ►
I’m going up to kind of co-facilitate a conversation and workshop on Friday
01:12:11 ►
around the issue of shamanic abuse particularly.
01:12:15 ►
And it’s going to be a whole lot of fun.
01:12:17 ►
So if any of our listeners are inclined to join,
01:12:20 ►
especially if you’re local to Canada, please come and talk with us.
01:12:25 ►
Oh, fantastic.
01:12:26 ►
Thanks for that.
01:12:27 ►
Yeah.
01:12:27 ►
Their website, well, just Google Women’s Visionary Congress,
01:12:31 ►
and they’ll have all that information on their website.
01:12:34 ►
Sure.
01:12:35 ►
Fantastic.
01:12:35 ►
Well, shall we wrap this up?
01:12:39 ►
I think so.
01:12:40 ►
Yeah.
01:12:41 ►
All right.
01:12:41 ►
So any concluding remarks here?
01:12:44 ►
All right, so any concluding remarks here?
01:12:50 ►
Well, ladies, it’s been just so wonderful to talk with both of you and such dynamic conversation.
01:12:52 ►
I know we both come from both.
01:12:54 ►
All three of us and both of you come from such different backgrounds
01:12:58 ►
and areas of expertise.
01:13:00 ►
It feels really amazing to get to talk and excited about more to come.
01:13:04 ►
It feels really amazing to get to talk and excited about more to come.
01:13:13 ►
And I know that you, Shauna, and I myself have different offerings for people in the form of teachings and things like that,
01:13:15 ►
that people can get in touch with us around working with us.
01:13:20 ►
So the conversation continues.
01:13:22 ►
Wonderful.
01:13:27 ►
Yeah, thank you both very much I was taking notes frantically the whole time with all kinds of exclamation marks
01:13:30 ►
and everything
01:13:30 ►
it really made me think about things
01:13:33 ►
in slightly different ways than I had been
01:13:36 ►
so I really appreciate that
01:13:37 ►
thank you Nishay
01:13:39 ►
thank you both of you
01:13:41 ►
I really love
01:13:44 ►
talking to the two of you.
01:13:46 ►
I can feel a lot of electricity here.
01:13:50 ►
And so I will very much look forward to another conversation.
01:13:54 ►
And also let the listeners know that Lorenzo has asked us to take over some of the podcasts
01:14:04 ►
to assist him to bring in more voices of women.
01:14:09 ►
So there will be more conversations among the three of us
01:14:13 ►
and also on our own conversations with maybe other people whose voices we want to bring into the conversation here.
01:14:22 ►
We’re featuring talks that have been given
01:14:26 ►
by different women. So I think this is going to be
01:14:29 ►
a really wonderful addition to the salon
01:14:32 ►
and I’m so honored
01:14:35 ►
that I’ve been asked, that we have
01:14:38 ►
been asked to do this and I think we’re
01:14:41 ►
going to endeavor to bring in some
01:14:44 ►
really wonderful
01:14:45 ►
women
01:14:47 ►
to this area.
01:14:51 ►
So thank you both
01:14:52 ►
and we’ll do this again
01:14:54 ►
soon. Thank you.
01:14:56 ►
Bye.
01:14:57 ►
Thanks. Bye.
01:15:01 ►
You’re listening to the Psychedelic Salon
01:15:04 ►
where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.
01:15:09 ►
And thanks to the three of you as well.
01:15:12 ►
Unlike me, you actually have lives that have deadlines and demands.
01:15:17 ►
So it’s really doubly fine of you to take the time to share your thoughts with us here in the salon.
01:15:22 ►
I think this is really going to be fun.
01:15:24 ►
I was going to say that I can’t wait to hear their next offering,
01:15:27 ►
but then I remembered that Shona already sent it to me.
01:15:31 ►
And it’s a conversation between her and Aslam Old Coyote,
01:15:35 ►
who is the medicine woman that she spoke of a few minutes ago.
01:15:39 ►
And I’ll play that here in the salon right after my next podcast,
01:15:42 ►
after this one, which, well,
01:15:44 ►
is going to be one of the 2014 Palenque Norte talks, if all goes well.
01:15:48 ►
So stay tuned.
01:15:51 ►
Now, I do have one brief comment I’d like to make about the part of the discussion that we just heard regarding Alan Watts’ famous remark that goes,
01:15:59 ►
When you get the message, hang up the phone.
01:16:02 ►
Now, my dearly departed friend, Gary Fisher, happened to actually
01:16:06 ►
be at the dinner table when that famous remark was first made. And by the way, if you’re new to
01:16:11 ►
the salon and don’t know about Gary Fisher’s pioneering work with psychedelics, not to mention
01:16:16 ►
his being deeply involved with the early Tim Leary scene, then go to our program notes, which you can
01:16:23 ►
get to via psychedelicsalon.us, and
01:16:26 ►
in the right sidebar under categories, click on the Gary Fisher link and maybe listen to
01:16:31 ►
a couple of those podcasts.
01:16:32 ►
I think you’re going to find out that he was a truly amazing man, and he was a very good
01:16:37 ►
friend.
01:16:38 ►
Anyway, Gary first told me that story one night while I was trying to convince him to
01:16:43 ►
come to an ayahuasca session,
01:16:51 ►
wouldn’t he? And at the time, I was in my 60s and Gary was in his 70s. So I tried to give him a hard time and say he was just avoiding it because he’d grown old. But Gary, in his very calm and mild
01:16:57 ►
mannered way, just gently smiled at me and said, don’t worry, you’ll find out for yourself when it’s time. Of course, I didn’t believe him.
01:17:06 ►
And also, of course, he was right.
01:17:10 ►
Because, well, a few years ago,
01:17:12 ►
I was participating in an ayahuasca ceremony
01:17:14 ►
that several of our long-time participants had skipped.
01:17:18 ►
Then I got to thinking about how much these events
01:17:21 ►
had become more social for me than spiritual.
01:17:24 ►
And, well, that was the last time I participated in an ayahuasca ceremony.
01:17:29 ►
The message finally arrived, just clear as a bell, and so I hung up the phone.
01:17:34 ►
But don’t despair.
01:17:36 ►
I still have hundreds of stories left to tell about what I heard before I hung up that beautiful phone.
01:17:43 ►
And one of them that you may have already heard here in the salon,
01:17:47 ►
I feel that I must retell again now, although only briefly, I promise.
01:17:52 ►
And I’ll preface by saying that I truly enjoyed the conversation that we just heard.
01:17:56 ►
I basically agreed with all that they said, and I learned some things that I didn’t know before.
01:18:02 ►
There is only one slight clarification that I’d like to
01:18:05 ►
make so as to keep a part of our community history very clear. In the 50s and 60s, the U.S.
01:18:11 ►
government conducted two major human research programs involving psychedelics. One was the
01:18:17 ►
infamous CIA program called MKUltra. That was the dirty one, The one where unsuspecting subjects were dosed and then observed,
01:18:26 ►
among some other even more despicable practices. The other program was run by the Army under the
01:18:32 ►
direction of Dr. James S. Ketchum. And Dr. Ketchum has written an incredibly well-documented book
01:18:39 ►
about this program, and it’s titled Chemical Warfare, Secrets Almost Forgotten.
01:18:46 ►
Actually, you won’t find any better source of information about this program, and reading
01:18:50 ►
it, you’re going to find that the Army focused on volunteers who were previously well-informed
01:18:55 ►
about the experiments.
01:18:57 ►
And I believe Jim’s version of these events, because I sat across the table from him for
01:19:02 ►
several afternoons at Burning Man one year, after Sasha Shulgin introduced us.
01:19:07 ►
And did I mention that Sasha also wrote the introduction to this book?
01:19:11 ►
My copy of which is inscribed,
01:19:13 ►
To the greatest podcast interviewer in the civilized world,
01:19:17 ►
Best wishes, Jim Ketchum.
01:19:19 ►
Well, he’s a really good man.
01:19:21 ►
He did things right, and he also moved psychedelic science ahead in as safe and a humane way as, well, as anyone conceived in the 1950s.
01:19:30 ►
Now, back to the conversation that we just listened to, I remain not only deeply impressed by the wisdom these three women have to offer us,
01:19:39 ►
but their life stories, as we’re gradually coming to hear them, are not only at times heart-wrenching, but are you ready for this?
01:19:46 ►
Some of the emotional features of their experiences are much the same as they were for me as a young man in transition,
01:19:53 ►
as Neche talked about transitioning from high school into college.
01:19:58 ►
It’s been my experience that the first five or six years of our lives, well, they seem to set the stage for all that follows.
01:20:04 ►
The first five or six years of our lives, well, they seem to set the stage for all that follows.
01:20:09 ►
That little child in us, you know, the one that first realized its independence,
01:20:11 ►
that little child never leaves us completely.
01:20:14 ►
And it’s always lurking there in the shadows,
01:20:17 ►
particularly when we’re going through significant life changes.
01:20:21 ►
That frightened little kid that was with me when I began college showed up once again when I joined the Navy.
01:20:23 ►
And again at every job and career change I made. Fortunately for me that frightened
01:20:28 ►
little kid in me had an excellent first six years of life and so I made it
01:20:33 ►
through those transitions unaided until I hit middle age and I really hit a wall
01:20:38 ►
but if you know my story it has a happy ending because on the other side of the wall was MDMA, LSD, magic mushrooms, cannabis, and ayahuasca, to name a few.
01:20:51 ►
And thanks to these sacred medicines, I’m a happy, well-adjusted, grandfatherly member
01:20:57 ►
of my community.
01:20:58 ►
I don’t even yell at the kids to get off the lawn.
01:21:01 ►
You know, these medicines really healed me, particularly in my transition
01:21:06 ►
from service in Vietnam to finding my way back into a functional person in the default world.
01:21:12 ►
These sacred substances are not for everybody. I think we can all agree on that.
01:21:17 ►
But for those of us whose destiny is intertwined with psychedelic medicines, people like me and
01:21:23 ►
Nishay, well, they are the catalysts that
01:21:25 ►
unchanged our little six-year-old minds and opened the doors of our consciousness to let
01:21:31 ►
in the light of love, or something like that.
01:21:35 ►
And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.
01:21:40 ►
Be well, my friends.