545 - Current Research and Future Trends of Psychedelics, Stanford 2_3

Program Notes

https://www.patreon.com/lorenzohagerty

Guest speakers: Bruce Eisner, David Nichols, Rick Doblin, Charles Grob, Richard Yensen, and Timothy Leary

Date this lecture was recorded: February 3, 1991

Today’s podcast features a panel discussion that took place at a psychedelic conference that was held at Stanford University in February of 1991, which is before the World Wide Web came into existence. At the time, conferences such as this were the primary means of communicating information about psychedelics to the public-at-large. Participants were: Bruce Eisner, David Nichols, Rick Doblin, Charles Grob, Richard Yensen, and Dr. Timothy Leary who, in addition to his own comments, also provided some amusing running commentary during several of the other talks. And we get to hear a young Rick Doblin give one of his most detailed descriptions about how he first came to become involved in psychedelic research.

Transcript

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Greetings from cyberdelic space.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.

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And yes, you’re correct.

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It’s been, well, it’s been almost a month since my last Salon 1.0 podcast.

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But thanks to the Symposia team, I’ve been able to post new podcasts each week and, well, and still goof off a whole bunch.

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But I figured that it’s now time to get this show back online.

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But I figured that it’s now time to get this show back online.

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First of all, I’d like to thank Judy T., Austin S., John R., and Kate M., all of whom have made donations to the salon during this past month.

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Additionally, three new friends have become patrons of my writing projects,

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and these good souls are Anomaly, Petra M., and Bjorn Z.

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So a big thank you goes out to our donors and patrons alike.

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You are the ones who are keeping the lights on here in the salon.

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And now I’m anxious to get on to today’s podcast.

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The recording that I’ll be playing was given to me by Dr. Charlie Grobe,

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who is also one of the speakers on this most esteemed panel, which also includes

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Bruce Eisner, Dave Nichols, Rick Doblin, Richard Jensen, and Timothy Leary. This panel discussion

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was held on February 3rd, 1991, which was over a quarter of a century ago. So you may think about

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skipping this program because it’s so old, but while some of the information may be a little out of date,

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however, from an historical perspective, I think that it’s important to get a better understanding about how much progress has actually been made

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in fighting this insane war on drugs over the past 26 years.

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Now let me say this up front.

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Even if you have only a passing interest in the history of

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the beginning of this new psychedelic renaissance, well then you may want to listen to today’s

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program at least twice. The first time, try to keep in mind the fact that this panel discussion

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was held even before the launch of today’s World Wide Web, or the Internet as some people like to think of it. In fact, this discussion

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was held five years before California even approved medical marijuana. Then, after you hear this

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discussion for the first time, give a little thought to how much has actually changed since

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this took place. The entire world has begun to undergo a massive change of unknowable extent, not only through digital technology, but through psychedelic technology as well, as you learned in the recent Salon 2.0 podcast with Dr. Thomas Roberts.

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try to recall all of the positive things that have since flowed through the relatively small groups of people who managed to get to one of these rare places in which psychedelics were discussed back then.

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I think that this is an important piece of our community’s history.

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It is surely something to tell your grandchildren about, even if they aren’t even yet glints in your eye.

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Over a quarter of a century has passed since this panel discussion was held.

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Back then there was no maps.org or arrowid.org to give us information,

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because back then there was still no public world wide web,

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no browsers and very little publicly available information about psychedelics.

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The primary way that this information was being distributed to non-researchers

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back then was through tapes from these rare conferences and from recorded talks by people

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like Terence McKenna. In fact, I just checked Arrowood’s comprehensive listing of psychedelic

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conferences by year, and apparently this was the only conference about psychedelics that was held that entire year,

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which is about average until you get to this new millennium that we are now beginning to struggle into.

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When this panel discussion was held, well, it was also around the time that the U.S. government

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had begun a major crackdown on MDMA manufacture and distribution.

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So, I’m sorry to say, at the time this conference took place,

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there I was, laying low in Florida, waiting for the statute of limitations to expire on

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some of my nefarious adventures in Texas, back during the days when ecstasy first hit the streets.

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So, while I was no longer actively involved in the psychedelic scene, at that very same time, there was Bruce Eisner, the author of Ecstasy, the MDMA story.

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And he was right up there on the stage with several others who were also willing to put themselves on the line so as to get this information out to a wider audience.

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Timothy Leary even violated the terms of his then current parole to be there.

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and violated the terms of his then-current parole to be there.

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Now this may not seem like such a big deal today,

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but trust me, these guys were our brave heroes back then,

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and they still are today.

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So let me stop talking for now and turn it over to the panel moderator, Bruce Eisner,

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who, as you will see, had his hands full

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trying to keep the irrepressible Timothy Leary in check.

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Hello, my name is Bruce Eisner, and I’m here to moderate the last panel of the Bridge Conference,

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which will concern current trends in research and the future of the psychedelic experience.

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of the psychedelic experience.

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First of all, I’d like to bring up Leonard Enos,

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who is going to read a letter to the conference from Albert Hoffman in Switzerland.

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Yes, hello.

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I called Albert Hoffman last week

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because he has some papers of mine

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that I gave him at Santa Rosa,

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and I inadvertently called him on his 85th birthday,

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January 11th.

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I’ll ask him if he wished to submit a small statement, and I just received it from him

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yesterday afternoon, and it reads as follows.

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Dear Companions in the Battle for the legalization of psychedelic drugs,

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I am pleased to send you regards and best wishes for a successful meeting

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from Switzerland.

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There is no need to waste words pointing out

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the importance of the aim of such a conference,

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the aim to document the use of psychedelic

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medicaments in psychiatry,

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psychology, and as unique tools in the search for self-realization and the use of psychedelic medicaments in psychiatry, psychology,

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and as unique tools in the search for self-realization and the study of consciousness.

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The experience of unity and wholeness caused by these agents makes them best fit for the therapeutic concept of psychology

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represented in transpersonal psychology and psychotherapy,

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where the experience of a deeper, all-encompassing reality constitutes the basic healing element.

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The prohibition of the psychedelics is connected, unfortunately, with today’s fantastic war against drug use.

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It is very important, therefore, to point again and again at the fundamental differences

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between the addiction-producing, highly toxic drugs

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and the non-dependency-producing psychedelic substances with relatively low toxicity.

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The fact is that the psychedelics now only do not produce addiction.

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They are promising medicaments for the treatment of addiction.

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I am convinced that the battle for making the psychedelics again legally available

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could be easily won if the people responsible among the health authorities

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would agree to test these special pharmaceuticals on themselves.

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For the purpose of making psychedelics once again legally available for psychotherapeutic use,

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I would suggest that the several thousands of scientific reports on LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline

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carried out in the period before

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prohibition should be collected, analyzed, and evaluated. Using computer techniques,

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it would be easy to evaluate the results of all these numerous investigations with regard to

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different important criteria. All this could be composed into a convincing general document which

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could impress the health authorities. Such documentation should finally convince the health authorities of the nonsense of the prohibition

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of a group of psychopharmaceuticals based not on their pharmacological properties and therapeutic qualifications,

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but on the wrong, incautious use of these medicaments on the street.

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It seems to me very important to support the realization of such a project.

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I end my address by repeating my best wishes for a successful, enjoyable meeting.

00:08:48 ►

Albert Hoffman.

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Thank you.

00:09:01 ►

Oh, there are seats in the balcony if anybody would like to take them.

00:09:06 ►

There are psychedelically colored seats, too.

00:09:09 ►

As high as you can get.

00:09:18 ►

Well, I’d like to begin this last panel on current trends and future research with psychedelic the of the psychedelic experience and basically I think we have a collection of both

00:09:33 ►

current researchers and spaced out prophets and so I’d like to begin the A balanced mixture, I hope.

00:09:52 ►

So I’d like to begin the panel by introducing the guests we have here today.

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See that? You thought it was another panel, Bruce.

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I don’t see any current researchers up here. We’ll start off with

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David Nichols, who’s a professor

00:10:13 ►

of medicinal chemistry

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at Purdue University.

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And David has done

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extensive research with

00:10:21 ►

many different psychoactive compounds

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in animal experiments

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and has developed a variety of new compounds.

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Then next we have Charlie Grobe, or Charles Grobe,

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who is an assistant professor of psychiatry at UC Irvine Medical School,

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and who is currently petitioning for the use of MDMA for clinical research.

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Next we have Richard Jensen.

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Richard is a psychologist who participated in the LSD research program at Maryland Psychiatric Research Center in Maryland

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and is a co-founder of Transpersonal Psychology

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and is currently director of Arinda Institute in Baltimore.

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Next we have Rick Doblin.

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And Rick is president of MAPS, the Multiple Disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies

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and he’s currently working on a degree

00:11:49 ►

in psychedelic studies at Harvard University

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it’s actually public policy

00:12:01 ►

I did try to get into the psychology PhD program

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to do psychedelic research, and they said

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that they didn’t want the ghost of Timothy Leary

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walking through the halls.

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What about Richard Alpert and Ralph

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Metzner?

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I could go on with the list.

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So that’s why I went to the School of Government.

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A lot of ghosts.

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Not to mention William James.

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And, of course, last we have, for the man who needs no introduction, Dr. Timothy Leary, former professor of Harvard University

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and author of over 30 books, including The Politics of Ecstasy.

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It says here,

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Exploring the Increased Capacity of the human mind, computers, virtual

00:12:46 ►

reality, and a cyberpunk hacker, exponent of smile.

00:13:03 ►

Okay, well, I’d like to begin the panel by telling people how I got here today.

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It started for me in the 1960s with my first LSD experiences in 1967.

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I was 19 years old, and my first LSD experiences were mind-blowing,

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revelationary religious experiences,

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which completely changed the course of my life.

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In any event, from there I ended up having dinner with Albert Hoffman on the Rhine River in Switzerland in 1976.

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And it was my quest for pure LSD that brought me to Switzerland.

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And then the next year, I brought Hoffman to UC Santa Cruz,

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where we had the first psychedelic conference in 10 years called LSD a Generation Later.

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And we had an amazing turnout of psychedelic researchers.

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It was a reconnection after a long period of no activity in the area.

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And it was at that conference,

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actually I organized the conference

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along with some of the other people here,

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Lynn Francis and Peter Stafford.

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It’s a grueling event to organize in one of these things.

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You spend weeks and weeks doing a lot of footwork, running around.

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The last day there was a lunch.

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It was a brunch at La Chamboyer, a French restaurant.

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And I decided not to go, and I ate mushrooms instead.

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In any event, I had this experience on the mushrooms. I was with a friend of mine who wrote for this newspaper we published later on in Santa Cruz called Blotter.

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And he wrote it under the name Sporius E. Mycelium.

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And he made a decoction of psilocybin mushrooms, and we took it.

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And I had just read Timothy’s book,

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the one where he talks about spin from east to west.

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Do you remember that?

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Intelligence agents.

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I remember very little.

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You’re on your own, Bruce.

00:15:40 ►

At the same time, I also had been reading Ernest Huxley’s book, Island.

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And on the trip, I put those two ideas together.

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I was looking out west.

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It was a beautiful, clear day, looking out to the west.

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And I started thinking about the spin of the earth and the idea of the island out there to the further west.

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How can we go further west?

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And the idea of a utopian psychedelic community,

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which Huxley had evoked in Ireland.

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And I said to myself,

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well, this is what I want to do

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with the rest of my life.

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I want to create an island group,

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an island foundation.

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And I put that, basically I put that on the back burner for the next 12 years.

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And it wasn’t until this year that I actually actively began to

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organize that organization and brought

00:16:35 ►

this conference together as a kind of a kickoff for

00:16:39 ►

the island foundation and the island group.

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Now, I wanted to read, this is a publication that Peter Stafford and Lynn Francis and I

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edited after we did that conference in 1977.

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It was called Blotter, and it was the annals of the Psychedelic Education Center,

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which was a group we started in Santa Cruz back then.

00:17:09 ►

And in this third issue, there was an article written by Michael Horowitz.

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And I wanted to read an excerpt from that.

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It’s a little lengthy, but I think we can handle it here.

00:17:23 ►

Now, Bruce.

00:17:28 ►

It’s dated April 17th. I’m going to grab a clock on you. What, two minutes?

00:17:35 ►

If two minutes doesn’t put them in a state of orgasmic enlightenment,

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we’ll move on, okay?

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All right.

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We’ll move on, okay?

00:17:50 ►

It’s dated April 17, 1993.

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Lolo Global Library Systems, San Francisco Branch,

00:17:57 ►

Federation of California Communes.

00:18:02 ►

Dear children, we had a time last night at the Gala celebration commemorating the 50th anniversary of the discovery of LSD.

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It was held at Visionary Stadium, and many of the 50,000 people who attended were dressed in the psychedelic style of the late 60s,

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just like those pictures of us in the Family album.

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Bill Graham and Chet Helms organized a spectacular concert,

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which featured many of the surviving musicians from the old San Francisco acid rock bands.

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There was a holographic light show, too,

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and people danced the old folk boogies all night long.

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Doses of a primitive type of LSD manufactured in the early days of the suppression

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were freely distributed.

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The mental effects seemed rather crude compared to the products available to us today,

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but most did get a buzz and no one complained.

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There were even a few freak-outs which delighted the celebrants.

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Bruce, does this get better?

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One more try.

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It was wonderful to see Albert Hoffman and Timothy Leary at the Table of Honor,

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which was modeled like a three-dimensional LSD molecule.

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LSD molecule.

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Dr. Hoffman, in splendid shape from then of 87,

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was given a silver bicycle replica of the one he rode along the Basel streets on the first LSD trip.

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When it was said that it meant more to him than the Nobel Prize for Chemistry,

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there were cheers of right on from those standing beside the punch table.

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The entire audience was sitting on the edge of their seats

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while they recounted for at least a thousandth time

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his accidental discovery of the prototypic psychedelic

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in the midst of the Second World War.

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Timothy, who at 73 looked much as he did at a Harvard psychology professor,

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had flown in from Base L5 on a space shuttle for the event.

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He was presented with a key to his archives,

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which the FBI had finished sorting and studying after two decades.

00:19:58 ►

Tim talked about his second Civil War of the 60s

00:20:00 ►

and compared himself to Homer reciting the Iliad.

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Civil War of the 60s and compared himself to Homer reciting the Iliad.

00:20:12 ►

He brushed off reports that he had been fired from his command post in L5 for turning on some teenage space colonists to a new high-classified time travel pill.

00:20:17 ►

The past may be more interesting than the future, he said not so enigmatically, concluding,

00:20:23 ►

as this party proves tonight.

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so enigmatically, concluding,

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as this party proves tonight.

00:20:30 ►

Michael Aldrich, chairman of the board of Ludlow Global, spoke next.

00:20:33 ►

He recalled the days when Ludlow Library was just a few volumes housed in a tiny room in Furlough Galley Avenue

00:20:35 ►

and how he had worked for reefers and cocaine

00:20:37 ►

when there was no money to pay for his creative salary.

00:20:41 ►

The stadium was hushed as he recapitulated the world flip-out spring of 1984 when over

00:20:45 ►

100,000 doses of Sandoz pharmaceutical LSD secretly purchased by the CIA in the early

00:20:50 ►

50s and stockpiled during different locations on the planet of the future used as a pharmacological

00:20:55 ►

weapon began to leak into the atmosphere during the UFO visitations. You could hear a pill

00:21:01 ►

drop as he described how the delegates of the UN General Assembly

00:21:06 ►

tripped out during an emergency meeting in New York,

00:21:09 ►

declaring all living things on planet Earth to be here for designated endangered species

00:21:14 ►

and agreed unanimously to disarm and stop pollution.

00:21:19 ►

That was followed by some psychedelic vaudeville performed by two surprised guests flown for the occasion.

00:21:29 ►

The 100-year-old Maztec shamanist Maria Sabina chanted the ancient mushroom Vedas,

00:21:34 ►

during which Yaki sorcerer Don Juan caused the entire audience to hallucinate a symposium on the subject of mind control

00:21:42 ►

given by himself, Hassassin-e-abath, and William S. Burroughs.

00:21:46 ►

After the applause died down, it was back to presentations.

00:21:50 ►

Sir Humphrey Osmond received an award for his pioneering research with mescaline,

00:21:53 ►

for turning out Otis Huxley, and for coining the term psychedelic.

00:21:56 ►

The period of silence for the memory of Otis was very appropriate and extremely moving.

00:22:01 ►

Laura Huxley came on stage afterward to accept his award for creating the last novel, Island, the most compelling blueprint for the lifestyles of the tribes and communes

00:22:09 ►

that quietly flourished during the suppression. She herself was honored for giving her husband LSD

00:22:14 ►

and reading from him the Tibetan Book of the Dead while he lay on his deathbed, allowing him to die

00:22:19 ►

with painless, anxiety-free dignity in the manner we are so accustomed to nowadays. Dr. Stitt.

00:22:26 ►

How many more are these?

00:22:28 ►

One more.

00:22:29 ►

Okay.

00:22:31 ►

Well, I’ll, in any event, the culmination of the awards ceremony is

00:22:37 ►

You had to be there.

00:22:38 ►

Really.

00:22:39 ►

The larger-than-life statue of Hippie, symbol of the legions of young people

00:22:43 ►

who risked their minds and their freedom to experiment

00:22:45 ►

with the metaprogramming tools

00:22:47 ►

provided by the alchemists and travelers among them,

00:22:50 ►

preserving the psychedelic visions

00:22:51 ►

until the general rebirth of 1984.

00:22:54 ►

After brushing away a tear or two,

00:22:55 ►

we descended upon the dance floor and rocked out

00:22:57 ►

with our brothers and sisters until dawn,

00:22:59 ►

love and ecstatic evolution

00:23:01 ►

for always, Mom and Dad.

00:23:02 ►

and ecstatic evolution for always, Mom and Dad.

00:23:14 ►

In any event, the reason I read that, and as no disrespect to Michael,

00:23:26 ►

was to show the futility of trying to place timelines on predicting the future of events and how they unfold. It seems like every time we try to put numbers on it or quantify it in some way that we get thrown off a little bit.

00:23:35 ►

So today, as we were talking about the future, I think we should keep that in mind.

00:23:41 ►

I’d like to make a few remarks about what I feel is the future of the psychedelic experience.

00:23:49 ►

First, I believe that we’re going to see an increased understanding of the way that the human nervous system functions.

00:23:59 ►

In other words, we’re going to be able to learn more and more and more about how the brain works,

00:24:03 ►

how neurons work, how synapses work. And that increased understanding of the

00:24:08 ►

brain is going to lead to an increased

00:24:12 ►

ability to produce new psychoactive compounds

00:24:16 ►

with more specific and precise effects.

00:24:21 ►

So that’s, it’s also going to lead to

00:24:24 ►

the development of

00:24:26 ►

new maps

00:24:30 ►

as we

00:24:32 ►

learn the way that the brain

00:24:35 ►

works we’re going to also develop

00:24:36 ►

a corresponding metaphorical

00:24:38 ►

map for understanding

00:24:40 ►

the future of

00:24:42 ►

unfolding of the

00:24:44 ►

new territories

00:24:45 ►

that have not yet been charted with psychedelics.

00:24:50 ►

Third, I think we’re going to see an integration of the ancient wisdom of the East

00:24:55 ►

and of shamanism into modern science.

00:24:59 ►

I think we see that happening already with the paradigmatic shifts, the new physics.

00:25:04 ►

We see that happening already with the paradigmatic shifts, the new physics.

00:25:15 ►

But I think that we’re going to see a blending of this ancient insight with modern sensibilities. I see new technologies developing for expanding the technology of mind expansion beyond the drug experience.

00:25:36 ►

One of those may be biofeedback and brain machines.

00:25:41 ►

As you know, biofeedback was in an infant state back in the early 60s,

00:25:46 ►

but now we’re beginning to learn more and more about how the brain works

00:25:50 ►

and how biofeedback can change our consciousness.

00:25:58 ►

We’re going to also see the interrelationship with that with brain machines.

00:26:03 ►

interrelationship with that with brain machines. We’re going to also see the creation of

00:26:07 ►

virtual reality apparatus which can simulate

00:26:11 ►

inter-experiences.

00:26:15 ►

In any event, what this is going to do is it’s going to take the psychedelic experience

00:26:19 ►

beyond just drugs to a new

00:26:23 ►

synergism, to create a new synergism where we can blend all of these various diverse elements

00:26:31 ►

into something greater than just drugs or shamanistic rituals or the new technologies, but a new culture.

00:26:48 ►

then I see this as having a tremendous impact on society as we develop ways of integrating these insights into our society.

00:26:54 ►

I think that we need to develop an institutional basis for consciousness change,

00:27:01 ►

for the new therapies, for the new humanistic therapies, for transpersonal therapies,

00:27:06 ►

and blending all these things together and creating institutional framework for the use of these things.

00:27:12 ►

And it’s been talked about for years.

00:27:14 ►

Dick Alpert, back in the mid-’60s, talked about an internal flight agency, I believe he called it,

00:27:22 ►

in which we would have licensing for psychedelic trips.

00:27:28 ►

People would have places where they could go and they could learn how to use them and

00:27:33 ►

take out trip licenses.

00:27:39 ►

But it makes sense to me.

00:27:41 ►

I mean, it’s kind of an in-between-between complete laissez-faire, let it all go,

00:27:45 ►

and the current situation we have now with complete control.

00:27:50 ►

So I see the need for this psychedelic center to evolve.

00:27:54 ►

And so that’s my vision of the future.

00:28:14 ►

Well, I live in the Midwest, and I always enjoy my trips to the West Coast.

00:28:22 ►

And when I got the invitation to attend this conference, I looked at this and I thought,

00:28:31 ►

I can’t afford to go to the West Coast for this weird conference. So I put the invitation away, and sometime later I got a call from Ted,

00:28:36 ►

and he said, did you get our invitation? And I said, yes, I did. And he said, where are you coming?

00:28:40 ►

And I said, I really can’t afford to fly out there. Well, if we pay your way, will you come?

00:28:45 ►

We think it’s very important that you come. I’m a reductionist sort of scientist,

00:28:50 ►

and I feel like among maybe perhaps a few others, you’re a token minority person here.

00:28:58 ►

I rode on an airplane a few years ago with a fellow who had just finished a residency in psychiatry, and I was very excited about the work I did, and I talked to him about doing research

00:29:03 ►

with LSD in animals, and I started talking about some of the work that Stan Groff

00:29:06 ►

had done giving LSD to humans and he looked at me in total horror and said

00:29:10 ►

you mean they actually gave LSD to humans

00:29:15 ►

and he had just finished a residency in psychiatry well I’m not going to spend

00:29:24 ►

a long time giving you comments in past history.

00:29:27 ►

I really got interested in this field as a child.

00:29:29 ►

My first exposure was in the manufacture of gunpowder and pyrotechnics.

00:29:34 ►

And I suppose you could consider that now I’m into mental pyrotechnics to some extent.

00:29:43 ►

The sad fact of the matter is though relating back to this

00:29:47 ►

psychiatrist

00:29:47 ►

if this were an audience with all the scientists in the world

00:29:52 ►

and I said how many people in here are doing research

00:29:54 ►

on how psychedelic agents work

00:29:57 ►

there would be two hands raised in the whole world

00:30:00 ►

mine and one other fellow

00:30:01 ►

at least in a university setting

00:30:03 ►

and funded by the National

00:30:06 ►

Institute on Drug Abuse. It’s a great tragedy to me that I can design these molecules right and

00:30:13 ►

left, and I can put them into rats, and I can measure receptor binding profiles, but the big

00:30:17 ►

question is, what do they do in man? We invented an LSD analog that’s twice the potency of LSD in

00:30:22 ►

man, but we can’t study it clinically because of the taboo.

00:30:26 ►

If LSD had been used as a clinical agent in the 1960s and had been legitimatized,

00:30:32 ►

SmithKline in French and Upjohn and Syntex and all these companies would have research groups

00:30:36 ►

employing perhaps dozens of chemists and pharmacologists doing the work that I alone basically try to do

00:30:42 ►

through funding by the government.

00:30:43 ►

And my plea to you would be, if you ever consider going to graduate school,

00:30:48 ►

or you know somebody in chemistry who wants to do this,

00:30:51 ►

there really aren’t very many people.

00:30:53 ►

I’m a very big fish in a very tiny pond.

00:30:55 ►

And I think that’s a real tragedy.

00:30:58 ►

Whether or not these drugs ever find utility in therapy or in spiritual growth or anything else,

00:31:04 ►

they’re a totally fascinating class of psychoactive agents.

00:31:07 ►

They relate to the process of dreaming and consciousness and spiritual revelation

00:31:11 ►

and how we see the environment that we live in and how we perceive it

00:31:16 ►

and who we are, the basic question of what is man.

00:31:18 ►

That alone ought to stimulate someone to do research in this area.

00:31:21 ►

And the field in a university setting and a legitimate setting

00:31:25 ►

is devoid of people doing this kind of work nowadays. And there’s really no reason for it.

00:31:30 ►

I’ve worked with a fellow now, an MD, who’s gotten an IND to give a psychedelic to humans.

00:31:35 ►

And other people could do it if they would. It takes an MD, admittedly. It takes a lot of

00:31:39 ►

patience. I’m an obsessive compulsive type person and I’m very tenacious and anti-authoritarian.

00:31:44 ►

So I’ve worked for a long time to get into this position,

00:31:47 ►

but it’s not a position that someone else couldn’t get into if they wanted to.

00:31:51 ►

Had people like me or others not done this, in terms of legitimate scientific research,

00:31:56 ►

there would be virtually nothing today and in the foreseeable future.

00:31:59 ►

So that’s a real tragedy that I see in terms of future research,

00:32:03 ►

that not enough bright people in psychology and cognitive science

00:32:06 ►

and organic and medicinal chemistry and pharmacology are going into these areas.

00:32:11 ►

Not enough psychiatrists fresh out of medical school and residencies

00:32:14 ►

are even aware of the possibilities that LSD could present in studying cognitive processes.

00:32:20 ►

So I would just make that comment as my brief introduction, so to speak. Thank you.

00:32:37 ►

As my first interest in this field actually goes back about, actually almost 30 years now. I was a sound man, and this gentleman that

00:32:48 ►

needs no introduction at the end of the table came to give a talk about a new drug called

00:32:54 ►

LSD. Well, I was an undergraduate, and I was interested in all kinds of gadgets and sound and media and motion pictures

00:33:05 ►

and dreamed of becoming a physician.

00:33:10 ►

And when he started talking about LSD, he said,

00:33:14 ►

you remember when you were a little kid and you’d go home and you’d turn on the TV

00:33:17 ►

and you’d go channel 4, channel 6, channel 11, channel…

00:33:22 ►

Well, if you try LSD, it’s all the channels at once.

00:33:26 ►

I think he got me right there.

00:33:31 ►

He was also saying things like,

00:33:33 ►

tune in, turn on, and drop out.

00:33:40 ►

That takes a lot from a gloom, you know.

00:33:44 ►

My professor said, he’s being irresponsible.

00:33:48 ►

He’s got the credentials.

00:33:49 ►

He’s got the degrees.

00:33:51 ►

Don’t listen to him.

00:33:58 ►

I didn’t believe them, even though I paid attention to their advice.

00:34:04 ►

even though I paid attention to their advice.

00:34:09 ►

I sit here now at the other end of the spectrum having spent 20 years of my adult life

00:34:12 ►

doing legitimate LSD research

00:34:14 ►

and struggling with the government

00:34:16 ►

to get the permission to do that work.

00:34:21 ►

And I think I tend to agree with my professors.

00:34:25 ►

Tune in, turn on, and drop out is irresponsible.

00:34:28 ►

It absolutely denies the way that psychedelics have ever been used in human history.

00:34:35 ►

Throughout human history, they’ve always been used to take us to another dimension,

00:34:40 ►

to a dimension where we can get meaning, where we can bring meaning back to our cultures.

00:34:45 ►

They haven’t been used for countercultural purposes.

00:34:48 ►

They haven’t been used for revolutions in the external sense of the word.

00:34:52 ►

They’ve been used to find deeper meaning inside

00:34:55 ►

to make us better citizens, to help us to change this country,

00:34:58 ►

to change this world.

00:35:00 ►

They haven’t much been used in societies as large as ours.

00:35:04 ►

Thank you. they haven’t much been used in societies as large as ours applause

00:35:06 ►

I guess it feels to me sometimes

00:35:13 ►

like in struggling with the government

00:35:14 ►

it’s a very small group of people that are doing this kind of work

00:35:18 ►

and there are a lot more people who are taking psychedelics

00:35:20 ►

and having wonderful experiences

00:35:22 ►

and who form a counterculture that really can be a support group in a way,

00:35:27 ►

but it’s also very dangerous for people who are involved in legitimate research.

00:35:33 ►

So I walk here a narrow line among friends, though I’m sure, as has been mentioned,

00:35:41 ►

there probably are representatives of the Food and Drug Administration and the DEA out there.

00:35:45 ►

Hi, gang.

00:35:50 ►

I think we really need some kind of standards for psychedelics, which we’re advocating,

00:35:57 ►

some kind of standards for what represents ethical use of psychedelic substances,

00:36:04 ►

use of psychedelic substances. And some summary of what’s been learned from our history of what represents

00:36:08 ►

real positive uses for these substances. Because there are

00:36:12 ►

real abuses. And we found some of them

00:36:16 ►

over the ensuing years from when I first met Tim

00:36:20 ►

and found him such a charming and wonderful guy.

00:36:25 ►

Well, over the 20 years, I kind of rambled back and forth, really,

00:36:30 ►

between mainstream science and, or at least mainstream institutions,

00:36:36 ►

doing research with LSD, with human beings, with cancer patients,

00:36:40 ►

with other professional people trying to get an idea

00:36:44 ►

how they might become

00:36:46 ►

more sensitive as therapists, with alcoholics who were looking for inspiration, for a way

00:36:57 ►

to turn their lives around, for a way to find meaning.

00:36:59 ►

I think that really when you look at all of the groups of people that I’ve worked with,

00:37:03 ►

they’re people who have a crisis of meaning in their life,

00:37:06 ►

who are really trying to find some renewed inspiration and some direction to go in.

00:37:15 ►

But I met a strange character in this process named Carlos Castaneda,

00:37:18 ►

who sort of pointed me towards something a little bit different,

00:37:22 ►

towards Don Juan and shamanism and Mexico and being

00:37:26 ►

half Latin American I was quite entranced by

00:37:28 ►

that

00:37:28 ►

when I came to the research center on the east coast

00:37:32 ►

I met a Mexican psychiatrist who was

00:37:33 ►

working with shamans in the mountains

00:37:35 ►

and took the opportunity to go down there

00:37:37 ►

and visit and it was like

00:37:40 ►

taking a journey 5,000 years into our

00:37:42 ►

past and

00:37:44 ►

entering a place where I could see the

00:37:45 ►

similarities between the ceremony that Maria Sabina was running and the LSD sessions that

00:37:51 ►

we were running for therapy at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center.

00:37:57 ►

I also began to, as I studied LSD and the history of psychedelics, to be able to see

00:38:02 ►

that these were enormous forces that through Albert Hoffman’s fortuitous discovery were unleashed from a laboratory

00:38:08 ►

with no cultural context.

00:38:11 ►

There I was sitting in a hut on a mountainside with a little old lady

00:38:17 ►

who was talking to me about the flesh of God.

00:38:21 ►

And as I studied other cultures that used psychedelics,

00:38:24 ►

I saw that they all regarded

00:38:26 ►

these substances as sacred. They all had extreme reverence for them. So I guess the other message

00:38:33 ►

of irreverence that I’ve heard, I’d like to see the future of psychedelics be involved

00:38:38 ►

with a new reverence, a new reverence for psychedelics as both synthetic and organic or natural,

00:38:48 ►

as profoundly meaningful substances that the word drug is really inadequate to encompass or explain. Computers and virtual reality are another track

00:39:17 ►

that I’ve been very interested in for a number of years.

00:39:22 ►

And it seemed to me as I went back and forth between here and Mexico,

00:39:26 ►

between present day and 5,000 years before,

00:39:32 ►

that really what shamans do is to use virtual reality environments,

00:39:37 ►

to use technology, whether it’s the technology of plants and drums and rattles,

00:39:42 ►

or it happens to be the technology of high-density digital displays

00:39:47 ►

and ways of dissolving the barrier between us and our percepts.

00:39:54 ►

One of the things that I feel is fairly inevitable in the future, as Bruce was pointing toward,

00:40:09 ►

is that the difference between the pharmacology that we know from drugs or plants, from ingesting substances, is going to begin to blur with a better understanding of the pharmacology of experiences.

00:40:18 ►

Because as we develop virtual reality devices of such resolution that you can put on something

00:40:23 ►

and enter another reality

00:40:25 ►

very convincingly as real as this one one of the possibilities is to actually monitor

00:40:31 ►

neurotransmitter release at the synaptic level and relate that to sequences of experience that

00:40:40 ►

are presented to somebody and through that process it’s possible to develop sequences of experience

00:40:46 ►

that produce certain patterns of neurotransmitter release

00:40:50 ►

across individuals.

00:40:53 ►

So then all of a sudden,

00:40:55 ►

you have an experience that produces a change in the brain

00:40:58 ►

the way that a drug might produce a change in the brain.

00:41:02 ►

And so what you begin to be looking at is non-drug pharmacology.

00:41:09 ►

So that many of the experiences that we’ve had with psychedelics

00:41:13 ►

that we find profound may have another home

00:41:16 ►

in this realm of virtual reality and cyberspace.

00:41:20 ►

Again, this is a technology that can be grasped in a profane way

00:41:24 ►

and is being developed by our military.

00:41:29 ►

It’s no less profound than the technology of mind-manifesting substances.

00:41:35 ►

No less sacred in its own potential.

00:41:38 ►

I hope that we find a way to grasp it in a sacred manner.

00:41:42 ►

The military is using it for Nintendo Wars.

00:41:56 ►

The great challenge that we face

00:41:58 ►

in trying to accomplish this

00:42:00 ►

is that we come from a culture of narcissism.

00:42:06 ►

Narcissism is a fancy psychoanalytic word for not being able to love yourself. As individuals, we suffer from individual narcissism.

00:42:15 ►

It’s hard for us to love ourselves for who we are. And that’s what a lot of people are looking for

00:42:20 ►

in this movement. The sad thing is that the possibility to find it is really there,

00:42:26 ►

and that’s a profound experience.

00:42:29 ►

But there’s an awful lot of garbage around it,

00:42:31 ►

an awful lot of other stuff around it,

00:42:33 ►

where you can just build up yourself.

00:42:34 ►

Oh, look at me, look at what I’m doing.

00:42:36 ►

Oh, I’ve gotten to level 24.

00:42:39 ►

I see you’re only at level 12.

00:42:41 ►

It’s too bad.

00:42:42 ►

Why don’t you follow my guru?

00:42:44 ►

We try to materialize. We bring emptiness

00:42:47 ►

to this dimension of meaning that’s so much a part of the tools that I’m talking to you about.

00:42:54 ►

And our culture suffers from the same thing. A culture needs to love its people.

00:42:59 ►

It needs to give them health care. It needs to educate them. The people are the stuff of which the

00:43:05 ►

culture is made. It doesn’t need to kill them. It doesn’t need to spend all its money on

00:43:10 ►

war.

00:43:23 ►

Something amazing happened at Woodstock.

00:43:26 ►

A nation of peace came alive.

00:43:29 ►

And somebody was up there singing a song.

00:43:31 ►

Joan Baez, I think it was.

00:43:33 ►

Ronnie Reagan, zap.

00:43:37 ►

Well, Ronald Reagan became president of the United States

00:43:39 ►

and our generation elected him.

00:43:41 ►

That’s what’s wrong with the 60s.

00:43:41 ►

Our generation elected him.

00:43:43 ►

That’s what’s wrong with the 60s.

00:43:53 ►

That’s what’s wrong with love that isn’t love.

00:43:55 ►

That’s what’s wrong with mysticism that isn’t mysticism.

00:43:58 ►

It doesn’t mean that the real thing isn’t out there.

00:44:00 ►

But it’s very hard to find.

00:44:05 ►

And there are a lot of very difficult experiences that you have to go through in the process. It isn’t so easy. LSD was touted as instant mysticism. That’s like instant coffee.

00:44:12 ►

It’s nice, but it’s not the real thing. That’s just because mysticism isn’t in LSD. It isn’t in

00:44:20 ►

these substances. It’s in us. us it’s real and these are all tools

00:44:26 ►

for us to realize that

00:44:28 ►

and we’re young and we’re innocent

00:44:31 ►

we’re young and we’re innocent

00:44:38 ►

and we embrace the tools

00:44:40 ►

in a young innocent way

00:44:41 ►

and we misuse them

00:44:42 ►

in a young innocent way

00:44:44 ►

and I would like to think that we’re getting more mature We embrace the tools in a young, innocent way, and we misuse them in a young, innocent way.

00:44:50 ►

And I would like to think that we’re getting more mature as a society,

00:44:57 ►

and that we will be able to rise to the occasion and the challenge.

00:45:02 ►

We can embrace this in a meaningful way.

00:45:18 ►

We can go forward in a positive direction. We can go forward with idealism and love. If we don’t, it all will pass into the background. It’s passed into the background a hundred times before, I’m sure. When Albert Hoffman had a strange experience riding home from his laboratory on a bicycle,

00:45:27 ►

all of this was a murky shadow in the background of the consciousness of our society.

00:45:35 ►

It’ll become that again.

00:45:38 ►

I don’t want to see that happen.

00:45:40 ►

I want us to work to make sure that it doesn’t happen.

00:45:43 ►

But that takes a lot of responsibility

00:45:45 ►

and a lot of hard work

00:45:47 ►

and it takes dealing with people who

00:45:50 ►

seem very unreasonable at times

00:45:53 ►

in positions of power

00:45:55 ►

so I hope you’ll join me in doing that

00:46:00 ►

thank you Thank you. I want to say we should rise to the challenge.

00:46:33 ►

You’re next, Rick. Now that there’s a war in the Middle East

00:46:49 ►

against people

00:46:50 ►

and that there’s a war against drugs here

00:46:53 ►

which is really against people

00:46:55 ►

could you just mention your name

00:46:58 ►

because I’m not familiar with some of you

00:47:01 ►

and also a few other people are

00:47:03 ►

I’ll introduce Rick?

00:47:05 ►

Yeah, I’ll introduce Rick again.

00:47:07 ►

This is Rick Doblin, who’s the president of MAPS,

00:47:10 ►

the Multiple Disciplinary Association for the Study of Psychedelic Drugs.

00:47:17 ►

He’s also doing a master’s degree at Harvard University in political studies, I believe.

00:47:26 ►

Public studies, that’s right.

00:47:27 ►

Public policy.

00:47:28 ►

Yeah.

00:47:31 ►

I’m sorry.

00:47:34 ►

I’m Richard Yensen.

00:47:37 ►

Richard Yensen.

00:47:38 ►

Richard Yensen.

00:47:43 ►

Baltimore, Maryland there’s actually one other thing I’d like to do

00:47:53 ►

as far as getting us acquainted with each other

00:47:55 ►

and I wonder if people could raise their hands

00:47:59 ►

if they or a close friend of theirs

00:48:01 ►

has had what they might call

00:48:03 ►

one of the more moving experiences of their lives with psychedelics.

00:48:07 ►

Yes.

00:48:12 ►

Woo!

00:48:13 ►

Wow.

00:48:23 ►

Now, this one’s a little bit harder.

00:48:26 ►

And I’d like to know how many people who either themselves or their close friends have had a brush with the law,

00:48:33 ►

that have had a legal case against them in this country.

00:48:39 ►

Related to drugs of some sort.

00:48:43 ►

That’s a pretty large number of us.

00:48:46 ►

Criminals? So we were among criminals here?

00:48:50 ►

I was!

00:48:52 ►

I was!

00:48:54 ►

I’m in violation of parole just to be with you people. Well, today I’d really like to talk about waging war, and more importantly, making peace.

00:49:20 ►

Because there is a war that’s being declared against drug users and drug abusers indiscriminately.

00:49:29 ►

And it’s a war that’s having a lot of consequences in our lives.

00:49:34 ►

And also there’s a lot of people that don’t realize that they could be helped by these substances

00:49:38 ►

if they could approach them in a safe context.

00:49:42 ►

There’s people who could use marijuana for cancer chemotherapy

00:49:46 ►

to control the nausea.

00:49:48 ►

It might really extend their lives some.

00:49:50 ►

There’s people that are going blind with glaucoma

00:49:53 ►

that could use marijuana

00:49:54 ►

that aren’t able to get it.

00:49:55 ►

There’s people that could use LSD psychotherapy

00:49:58 ►

for LSD addiction.

00:50:01 ►

There’s people that could use MDMA

00:50:03 ►

for facing terminal illness. There are people that could use MDMA for facing terminal illness. There are

00:50:06 ►

people that don’t realize what they could be getting. And a lot of these people are

00:50:11 ►

who we think of as them waging the war against us. And that’s where I think waging peace

00:50:19 ►

is really necessary. As long as we talk about how these drugs have helped us to become more of what we are, I think we’re frightening a lot of people.

00:50:34 ►

And I think they deserve

00:50:36 ►

to realize that there may be some changes from that. But if we can

00:50:40 ►

turn it around and start to talk about these drugs used in a

00:50:44 ►

medicinal way,

00:50:46 ►

right now they can’t hear shamanistic, religious is a little bit.

00:50:50 ►

Try to show that these substances are for our parents and our grandparents who are dying.

00:50:56 ►

That these substances are for Ronald Reagan’s family,

00:51:02 ►

who some have cancer, who some have glaucoma.

00:51:06 ►

It’s for people who are waging the war against us.

00:51:11 ►

And they have enormous fears

00:51:12 ►

about what we’re up to and what we’re doing.

00:51:15 ►

Just enormous.

00:51:17 ►

And we have to deal with those.

00:51:20 ►

We have to run right into the research laboratories

00:51:23 ►

and say to them that we are ready to be experimented on ourselves. That if they think that there’s a generation

00:51:30 ►

of people that are going to be giving birth to chromosome-damaged babies, that we’re going

00:51:37 ►

to have birth defects all over, they’re going to have to show it in our own families, but

00:51:42 ►

we’re going to have to open up our families to the researchers. We’re going to have to show it in our own families, but we’re going to have to open up our families to the researchers. We’re going to have to reach out to the government and say, you’re talking

00:51:49 ►

about us being brain damaged from MDMA. Well, here we are. Prove it.

00:52:02 ►

But where it starts to seem more like war is they come and they say,

00:52:05 ►

well, in order to prove it, we’re going to have to jab you with all these needles.

00:52:09 ►

We’re going to have to stick you in all these machines.

00:52:12 ►

We’re going to have to wire you up to all this equipment.

00:52:17 ►

We’re going to have to take your children away if, for some reason or other,

00:52:20 ►

we think that you’re doing drugs and they’re harmed by it.

00:52:24 ►

Or if you’re pregnant and you’re a drug addict, we’re going to have to separate you from your children.

00:52:29 ►

And not only that, we’re going to put you in jail.

00:52:31 ►

There’s just so much of a criminal mindset that’s put on drug use.

00:52:37 ►

And it’s not really something that we can do all that much about.

00:52:42 ►

But in the areas that we can work, we’re particularly powerful.

00:52:46 ►

And I think that those areas have to do

00:52:48 ►

with producing honest-to-goodness,

00:52:51 ►

genuine information and science.

00:52:54 ►

Now, the government’s done their very best so far

00:52:56 ►

to block the research,

00:52:58 ►

so we have a hard time doing actual studies.

00:53:02 ►

But to give you an example of what we can do,

00:53:06 ►

through MAPS, the organization

00:53:08 ►

that I’m trying to put together,

00:53:10 ►

130 people, there’s only

00:53:11 ►

130 members of MAPS.

00:53:14 ►

And together, we

00:53:16 ►

funded a conference in Switzerland

00:53:17 ►

and a trip to Czechoslovakia that just

00:53:20 ►

took place the end of November and December.

00:53:22 ►

And Charlie was there, and

00:53:23 ►

Richard was there, and many people in this room

00:53:26 ►

were there. And what we

00:53:28 ►

were doing was meeting with people from

00:53:29 ►

a variety of different countries.

00:53:32 ►

Psychiatrists from Moscow, who came

00:53:33 ►

as representatives of their Ministry of Health.

00:53:36 ►

Psychiatrists from Czechoslovakia

00:53:38 ►

that used to do LSD research there.

00:53:40 ►

Psychiatrists from Germany,

00:53:42 ►

who would like to do this work and are doing

00:53:44 ►

work with other substances. And psychiatrists from Switzerland, would like to do this work and are doing work with other substances.

00:53:45 ►

And psychiatrists from Switzerland who now are no longer able to do work because temporarily they’re completely shut down.

00:53:53 ►

So there’s nowhere in the world that this work is happening now.

00:53:57 ►

And we also brought several people who are doing research for the government on the harms of MDMA

00:54:02 ►

so that they could hear from us what we thought were the benefits,

00:54:07 ►

and so that they could tell us what they thought were the harms.

00:54:10 ►

And together we could try to see, is there a way to advance knowledge that would both teach us and teach them?

00:54:17 ►

And we found that there was, or so they say.

00:54:21 ►

And now it’s our time to put it to the test.

00:54:21 ►

Or so they say.

00:54:24 ►

And now it’s our time to put it to the test.

00:54:29 ►

And we’re developing a protocol to submit to the FDA.

00:54:33 ►

Charlie is doing a lot of the design and others are helping.

00:54:38 ►

And as a community, there’s a lot of wisdom here, a lot of resources, a lot of talent,

00:54:41 ►

and that we can actually develop a credible protocol. Unfortunately, I found out that

00:54:45 ►

this odyssey that we have gone on to try to find other countries

00:54:49 ►

to do this research, it seemed like Czechoslovakia

00:54:52 ►

would be a great place. We’ve all heard about how wonderful

00:54:55 ►

Havel is. He’s very sympathetic with all of this.

00:54:59 ►

But it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be happening in Czechoslovakia

00:55:02 ►

quite yet. They’re still very much in need of

00:55:04 ►

American aid. They’re still very much in need of American aid.

00:55:05 ►

They’re still very concerned about alienating us.

00:55:08 ►

Russia’s in turmoil.

00:55:09 ►

It’s very difficult to move through bureaucracies in Russia for anything new.

00:55:14 ►

Switzerland’s shut down.

00:55:16 ►

At first, I really thought that we would be able to start this work in other countries

00:55:19 ►

and then bring the data back home.

00:55:24 ►

Well, we need exactly that.

00:55:26 ►

We need exactly that.

00:55:27 ►

And there is a group of people in the hate,

00:55:30 ►

and around here in this room,

00:55:31 ►

that I would like to now address specifically.

00:55:34 ►

People who have used substances

00:55:35 ►

and have used MDMA more than 10 times,

00:55:39 ►

or have never used MDMA,

00:55:41 ►

or who know people that are totally opposed

00:55:43 ►

to the use of drugs and haven’t used them. The government has said there is an open door. It’s going to be slow.

00:55:50 ►

It’s going to be very tedious. It has to be extremely thorough. But it’s not a world out

00:55:54 ►

there where the government is completely stopping everything. They’re not successfully able

00:55:59 ►

to do that. Plus, enough of their own interests. Just the mere fact that Dave Nichols can do

00:56:03 ►

work. The mere fact that we can be here today.

00:56:07 ►

And I honestly don’t know, but I don’t believe there’s any narcs here.

00:56:11 ►

They don’t care what we’re talking about.

00:56:13 ►

They have us blocked at every step of the way.

00:56:16 ►

They don’t need to find out what we have to say.

00:56:18 ►

It doesn’t matter to them.

00:56:19 ►

They’re not going to learn anything.

00:56:21 ►

They’re not after us in any case except incidentally.

00:56:24 ►

anything. They’re not after us in any case except incidentally because they

00:56:27 ►

have a mindset that it’s what the culture thinks, what the culture

00:56:32 ►

is being taught and they’re controlling information, they’re controlling research

00:56:36 ►

it doesn’t matter to them that much what we’re doing

00:56:40 ►

unless we surface in their area where they’re

00:56:44 ►

playing and that’s in the media but not so much the reports here what we’re doing, unless we surface in their area where they’re playing,

00:56:45 ►

and that’s in the media, but not so much the reports here, but we need facts.

00:56:49 ►

We need to contradict facts, and we need to address their fears.

00:56:53 ►

And the way is through research.

00:56:55 ►

But because it’s like waging war, there’s a price.

00:56:58 ►

It’s not easy.

00:57:00 ►

And it takes a lot of courage to go into the laboratories,

00:57:04 ►

and it takes a lot of courage to stand up and to try to ask ourselves,

00:57:09 ►

are we really suffering occasional memory loss?

00:57:12 ►

Is that from LSD, MDMA? Is that from aging?

00:57:16 ►

What is the kernel of truth, if there is any, in what they’re saying?

00:57:21 ►

And why is it that there aren’t more of us moving into their studies.

00:57:29 ►

So there’s a study at Johns Hopkins that the government has funded

00:57:32 ►

that’s looking to evaluate the effect of MDMA on individuals.

00:57:38 ►

And so far they’re taking 24 people who’ve used MDMA over 10 times

00:57:42 ►

and they’re testing them for four days in the hospital.

00:57:45 ►

And they’re going to compare this group with a group of people

00:57:47 ►

that have used drugs like the MDMA people, but have never used MDMA.

00:57:52 ►

So they’re looking for people who have done psychedelics,

00:57:55 ►

people who have done marijuana, cocaine, other drugs, but just not MDMA.

00:57:59 ►

And then they’re going to compare them to a group of people that have never done drugs.

00:58:03 ►

And it’s very difficult to get

00:58:07 ►

this study completed. And it’s a very, you know, minimal study. It’s a toehold. Who knows what it’s

00:58:11 ►

going to show? But I’d like to just ask people to reflect on how many of us have paid the price

00:58:19 ►

in terms of the laws and the government and the jails being a threat to our lives. It’s a heavy price to pay. And it’s less of a price to go into these studies and try to show and to change

00:58:30 ►

knowledge and to do factual research. That we know problems and we should be the first

00:58:38 ►

ones to try to really explore them. So I just would also like to say that if only 130 people could put together a conference in Switzerland,

00:58:48 ►

that the group of us here can take the next steps.

00:58:52 ►

Because where I see we’re at now at the FDA is that there’s a receptiveness right now for our protocol.

00:59:00 ►

If we work with terminal patients, if we work with people that are close to dying,

00:59:05 ►

I mean, we’re talking about them.

00:59:07 ►

Everyone is going to be dying.

00:59:08 ►

And everyone is a little bit nervous or scared about it.

00:59:13 ►

And so the protocol that we’re thinking about sending in

00:59:16 ►

has to do with terminal patients

00:59:18 ►

and also with another group of people

00:59:21 ►

who we need to learn a lot from,

00:59:22 ►

and that’s the people that are suffering from AIDS.

00:59:25 ►

The things that they have been able to do

00:59:27 ►

because their life’s on the line,

00:59:29 ►

because they recognize it.

00:59:31 ►

In terms of doing their own research,

00:59:33 ►

they know, again,

00:59:34 ►

that facts are the key

00:59:35 ►

to their survival.

00:59:37 ►

I mean, from what Joey’s doing

00:59:39 ►

with needle exchange,

00:59:41 ►

you can’t just do it.

00:59:50 ►

You have to do it and study it. And then you have to study it and talk about it. And then you expose yourself to the law. But that’s the approach, I think, that will

00:59:56 ►

work eventually. And perhaps sooner than later, the medical marijuana case is right now in the

01:00:02 ►

appeals court being argued out by a group of

01:00:05 ►

excellent lawyers who are mainly Republicans who’ve taken the case pro bono, working for the

01:00:12 ►

medical use of marijuana. They’ve spent over $100,000, this law firm in Washington, D.C.

01:00:18 ►

So our allies come from a lot of strange places that we wouldn’t expect. And they assigned one of their lawyers who

01:00:25 ►

actually was blind to the medical marijuana case. Blind. You know, marijuana can help

01:00:32 ►

people stop going blind.

01:00:34 ►

There was, there was, in the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Right. be next. So we may not agree with these people and their lifestyle,

01:01:05 ►

but we’re going to go through

01:01:07 ►

with that for a minute because if we don’t do it for us

01:01:10 ►

then maybe because

01:01:11 ►

the culture doesn’t like us.

01:01:14 ►

Can we limit the

01:01:15 ►

questions right now?

01:01:18 ►

And I think we

01:01:19 ►

want to go through the rest of the panel

01:01:21 ►

before we open the panel for discussion.

01:01:25 ►

Okay. I’d like to go next the rest of the panel before we open the panel for discussion. Okay.

01:01:25 ►

Yeah.

01:01:26 ►

Okay.

01:01:26 ►

I’d like to go next to Charlie Grove here.

01:01:32 ►

Yeah.

01:01:34 ►

I think Bruce wants to stop and come up.

01:01:35 ►

Come on.

01:01:36 ►

Yeah, Bruce.

01:01:37 ►

Okay.

01:01:56 ►

Okay. My name is Charlie Grobe. I’m a psychiatrist at the University of California at Irvine.

01:01:59 ►

I’m really, you know, real delighted to be here today. I’m having a much better time here today than I did last year at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

01:02:04 ►

a much better time here today than I did last year at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

01:02:06 ►

A lot more to think about.

01:02:10 ►

A lot more possibilities come up here.

01:02:15 ►

As Rick Doblin mentioned,

01:02:18 ►

with Rick’s backing, I’ve been, along with my colleagues at UC Irvine, working on a protocol to submit to the FDA to examine the clinical efficacy of MDMA in a subject group for which we really have no or we could offer very little in terms of help, and that’s those individuals with terminal illness.

01:02:43 ►

of help, and that’s those individuals with terminal illness.

01:02:51 ►

Certainly there are other subject groups which might benefit from such unique substances as MDMA and the other psychedelics, yet we felt for a variety of reasons we would undertake

01:02:58 ►

a strategy in terms of getting sanctioned from the authorities to work with these substances with the terminally ill.

01:03:08 ►

Again, for whom we have very little to offer, that’s number one.

01:03:12 ►

For whom the concern of long-term adverse effects is not a pragmatic concern.

01:03:20 ►

And then finally, looking back to the early work at Spring Grove, Maryland, where Rich Jensen was some years ago, along with Dan Groff and Albert Kurland, where they utilized LSD as well as DMT in efforts to relieve the suffering of terminally ill patients with very, very impressive results.

01:03:42 ►

So that’s why we’re undertaking this tact.

01:03:45 ►

I believe that when it comes down to designing a strategy to pursue obtaining sanction to work with these substances

01:03:52 ►

from the authorities, we need to initially look at conditions people might have that are refractory

01:03:59 ►

or not responsive generally to conventional treatments.

01:04:03 ►

These might include severe alcohol and severe substance abuse.

01:04:08 ►

It might include severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

01:04:14 ►

Although we probably could find applications in a number of areas,

01:04:18 ►

I think we need to be somewhat circumspect in coming up with our initial strategies.

01:04:23 ►

circumspect in coming up with our initial strategies. Once we get our foot in the door, then I think all sorts of

01:04:28 ►

possibilities might possibly open up. In terms

01:04:32 ►

of my own interest in psychedelics,

01:04:36 ►

it extends quite a long time

01:04:39 ►

back. Some many years ago, I actually took Dr.

01:04:43 ►

Leary’s advice and I tuned on, tuned in, and dropped out, at least from college.

01:04:49 ►

I think my parents still want to talk to you about that.

01:04:52 ►

But I dropped back in.

01:04:54 ►

And one of the…

01:05:02 ►

And I’ll say that, you know, when I, after I dropped out of college,

01:05:08 ►

I worked as Stan Krippner’s research assistant at the Maimonides Dream Research Lab,

01:05:13 ►

where I would have to stay up all night monitoring EEGs and waking up people over intercom systems

01:05:20 ►

and asking them about dreams.

01:05:21 ►

And when I wasn’t simply trancing out on the EEG tracings,

01:05:25 ►

I was doing a lot of readings,

01:05:26 ►

including a number of works on psychedelic drugs

01:05:30 ►

that Stan had in his library or in his office at that time.

01:05:34 ►

And I remember distinctly the night I read The Politics of Ecstasy.

01:05:38 ►

And upon finishing it, I felt, boy, this is what I’ve got to do.

01:05:42 ►

This is great.

01:05:43 ►

I mean, the potential to help people.

01:05:45 ►

I mean, what if, you know,

01:05:46 ►

one-tenth of what he’s talking about could be true.

01:05:51 ►

We might really have something.

01:05:54 ►

It’s really two-thirds true.

01:05:57 ►

So I went back to school

01:05:59 ►

and was stunned to perceive

01:06:02 ►

that it was a, going back to school, the pre-med, the medical school,

01:06:06 ►

the training, not only turned out to be a

01:06:09 ►

very depleting, even dehumanizing

01:06:12 ►

experience, but it was a very confusing

01:06:15 ►

affair. There was enormous pressure in contemporary

01:06:18 ►

medicine and psychiatry not to look at

01:06:21 ►

the models of treatment that Dr. Leary and Stan

01:06:24 ►

Groff were exploring some 20, 30 years ago.

01:06:28 ►

Keep in mind that when we look back into the 50s and the early 60s,

01:06:32 ►

research with psychedelics was one of the most exciting areas in all of psychiatry.

01:06:37 ►

There was tremendous anticipation as to the potential these substances had,

01:06:44 ►

not only in understanding the processes of mind,

01:06:46 ►

but for us to learn how to help people, help people for whom we really couldn’t get to.

01:06:52 ►

Unfortunately, because the cat getting out of the bag, let’s say,

01:06:57 ►

research was shut down in the late 60s and has become absolutely moribund since then.

01:07:04 ►

in the late 60s, and has become absolutely moribund since then.

01:07:10 ►

I remember in medical school, in my more depressing moments,

01:07:15 ►

cramming for exams in the library, staggering to my feet after not having gotten up for five hours, and staggering over to Index Medicus to see if there was anything in the past month

01:07:19 ►

written on lysergic acid diethylamide.

01:07:22 ►

And except for what goes on in cat retina or salamander

01:07:26 ►

reflex, there wasn’t a whole lot. Interest fell flat to the loss of all of us.

01:07:38 ►

And but I hung in there. I didn’t know if I was going to turn back.

01:07:45 ►

I didn’t know what quite to do.

01:07:47 ►

I also remember at one point we had to present a synopsis of a research study to a public health seminar,

01:07:53 ►

and I chose Stan Grof’s work on the treatment of the terminal ill with LSD,

01:07:59 ►

which appeared in 1972 in the International Journal of Pharmacopsychiatry.

01:08:04 ►

Just as moving a scientific study as you’ll ever find.

01:08:09 ►

And I presented the paper to my class, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

01:08:16 ►

I mean, they thought I was a normal person, but the looks I got that day were somewhat disheveling.

01:08:24 ►

The looks I got that day were somewhat unsettling.

01:08:34 ►

Well, let me just say, Dave Nichols earlier mentioned that he was astounded to see that the psychiatric resident he met on the plane knew nothing of the clinical potential of LSD.

01:08:49 ►

That is a very, very common, almost generalizable thing that you find within medical students,

01:08:52 ►

within trainees, even within young physicians. They have no idea that these substances were once viewed as having extraordinary potential,

01:09:01 ►

and it’s just a shame that these substances have been lumped into common drugs

01:09:06 ►

of abuse. They’ve been profaned and have remained so, at least in professional circles, for some

01:09:15 ►

years. I am becoming more optimistic, and I should say perhaps I’m, I should say that Rick Doblin’s optimism is contagious.

01:09:26 ►

And I’m beginning to, within, among my professional colleagues,

01:09:32 ►

to speak up about how I see some of the real issues are with psychedelic drugs.

01:09:39 ►

And my colleague, Gary Bravo, who’s here today,

01:09:43 ►

and I have published in the, psychiatric literature some thoughts on psychedelics,

01:09:51 ►

and I’ve actually been somewhat surprised that just about all the feedback we’ve gotten has been positive.

01:09:59 ►

I have not as yet at least gotten a notice from Sacramento asking me to turn in my medical license,

01:10:07 ►

although after my talk today, who knows?

01:10:11 ►

In which case, I’ll move to Hawaii.

01:10:13 ►

Okay.

01:10:16 ►

So I do feel that, or I’m hopeful, that we’re on the threshold of perhaps reexamining the area of psychedelics

01:10:26 ►

and the degree to which they may be helpful in the relief of human suffering.

01:10:35 ►

You know, physicians and general psychiatrists in particular are, let’s say, at a very difficult and tenuous juncture.

01:10:44 ►

are, let’s say, at a very difficult and tenuous juncture.

01:10:49 ►

Physicians not only are heirs to the traditions involved with healing,

01:10:54 ►

they’re heirs to the traditions involved with being a part of the priesthood,

01:10:56 ►

being the protectors of the dogma. And we may be coming to the time where we’re going to have to examine which will take priority.

01:11:03 ►

Our role as healers and our commitment, our dedication,

01:11:06 ►

our oath to help relieve suffering versus our support and entrenchment in status quo and convention.

01:11:34 ►

Let me mention just a couple of other related areas.

01:11:39 ►

The work I do at UCI is generally with young people, adolescents and young adults. And I am astounded and horrified as to the degree of misinformation that exists among young people today.

01:11:46 ►

And I believe this misinformation often leads to very, very tragic results.

01:11:52 ►

The kids today really have very, very poor appreciation as to the drugs that they utilize.

01:12:04 ►

the drugs that they utilize.

01:12:11 ►

They’ve more or less been force-fed a concoction of distortion,

01:12:15 ►

exaggeration, and misinformation that really gets many of these kids into terrible, terrible trouble.

01:12:19 ►

I’ll give you a brief case history of a kid I worked with recently,

01:12:23 ►

or actually a friend of a kid I worked with recently, or actually a friend of a kid I worked with recently.

01:12:26 ►

A group of kids out in Southern California in a relatively poor desert town

01:12:35 ►

who had been using marijuana for some years as their drug of choice.

01:12:39 ►

And as we know, if you look at the data, it is a normative experience of adolescents to, at the very least, experiment, have some experience with illicit drugs.

01:12:50 ►

These kids had chosen marijuana as their drug of choice, and although one could perhaps make some statements as to their general lack of motivation to get ahead in the world,

01:13:01 ►

they were generally doing all right utilizing a, by and large, benign drug.

01:13:06 ►

Well, our government has begun to devote tremendous resources and energies

01:13:10 ►

to stopping the use of marijuana.

01:13:15 ►

Their interdiction program with marijuana has been very, very successful,

01:13:20 ►

and one of the outcomes has been, at least in this poor desert town,

01:13:24 ►

that the marijuana supplies dried up.

01:13:26 ►

Now, if you look at the data, and if you read such people as Ron Siegel,

01:13:33 ►

you get a sense that perhaps there may be something intrinsic to the human being,

01:13:37 ►

particularly those who are young, that they need to alter their state of consciousness. The previously benign vehicle for doing that was no longer available.

01:13:50 ►

They turned to what was available, which initially was methamphetamine,

01:13:55 ►

followed by the discovery on the outskirts of town, a patch of gypsum weed growing.

01:14:00 ►

So the new trip for these kids was mixing methamphetamine and gypsum weed,

01:14:07 ►

both of which they knew nothing about.

01:14:09 ►

Well, the outcome was tragic.

01:14:10 ►

One day, one of the boys became acutely agitated, very confused,

01:14:16 ►

ran out of the house he was staying in where he was with his friends.

01:14:19 ►

His friends couldn’t catch him.

01:14:20 ►

He ran out into the middle of town, behaved in a very agitated, disturbing manner. The townspeople

01:14:26 ►

called the police.

01:14:28 ►

The police arrested him,

01:14:30 ►

cuffed him, put him in the back of the police car,

01:14:32 ►

drove him to jail, put him

01:14:34 ►

in a cell, let him cool off

01:14:36 ►

for a little while, came back an hour later,

01:14:38 ►

and he was lying dead on the floor.

01:14:40 ►

Post-mortem results indicated

01:14:42 ►

a cardiac arrest. The results

01:14:44 ►

of methamphetamine, Datora, which is the active component in Jimson weed, and fear.

01:14:51 ►

This kid was literally scared to death.

01:14:53 ►

And I truly see him as a purpose here is, I guess, in part to reminisce, in part to speculate,

01:15:18 ►

in part to examine the potentials of utilizing these substances in sanctioned, approved kosher clinical settings,

01:15:28 ►

clinical research settings, and yet I believe another purpose of ours is to disseminate accurate information

01:15:35 ►

and really to help implement or revive an outlook which will counter some of the inaccuracies and distortions

01:15:47 ►

that our war on drugs has provided.

01:15:52 ►

To paraphrase Albert Hoffman, whom we met with in Switzerland,

01:15:57 ►

Dr. Hoffman, who, by the way, for his age, which is the mid-80s,

01:16:00 ►

is about the most remarkable specimen I’ve ever seen.

01:16:03 ►

And if he’s a testimony to the long-term effects of these substances.

01:16:16 ►

But what Dr. Hoffman did tell us, did share with us,

01:16:21 ►

was his belief that instead of all this attention and effort,

01:16:27 ►

energy directed at the war to end drugs,

01:16:33 ►

how about a little attention to drugs which will end war?

01:16:36 ►

Thank you.

01:16:54 ►

That’s been wonderful.

01:16:57 ►

Thank you.

01:17:03 ►

We’ve got some real comedians on this panel

01:17:05 ►

we’ve got some real good preachers

01:17:08 ►

and we’ve got some

01:17:11 ►

powerful

01:17:12 ►

sociological, political

01:17:15 ►

we should take this on the road

01:17:16 ►

I made a clerical error in my head,

01:17:29 ►

and I thought this was going to be about the future of psychedelics,

01:17:34 ►

but it’s more about the future of psychedelic research.

01:17:37 ►

It’s open, Tim.

01:17:38 ►

I can prove that, yes.

01:17:39 ►

Because you have psychedelic experience.

01:17:40 ►

Yes.

01:17:40 ►

I quickly learned it was open, and I’ve proved that yet.

01:17:43 ►

We don’t have a panel of

01:17:45 ►

follow the leader people here

01:17:47 ►

when I was younger and more brash

01:17:59 ►

when people

01:18:00 ►

people say

01:18:02 ►

well we got to get government approval we got to get government funding we got to get government approval

01:18:05 ►

we’ve got to get government funding

01:18:06 ►

we’ve got to get government approval

01:18:07 ►

the more I think about it

01:18:10 ►

the last thing I want to do

01:18:13 ►

is to turn my brain over

01:18:16 ►

to a government authorized agent

01:18:18 ►

applause

01:18:21 ►

you know your comments about the medical profession,

01:18:30 ►

which come up a couple of times here,

01:18:32 ►

and the awesome narrow-mindedness that you guys have been talking about.

01:18:38 ►

You know, let’s face it.

01:18:40 ►

When I was growing up, the medical profession was right up there.

01:18:44 ►

It was very honored.

01:18:45 ►

You know, there was a doctor in town

01:18:46 ►

that always had the Buick.

01:18:48 ►

And when I went through Ph.D. training,

01:18:54 ►

you know, until very recently,

01:18:57 ►

you know, you didn’t have to apologize to be an M.D.

01:19:02 ►

But recently, you know,

01:19:04 ►

the evidence is that people are not

01:19:07 ►

joining up to study medicine as much

01:19:09 ►

because good God

01:19:11 ►

half your time is spent defending yourself

01:19:13 ►

against suits from

01:19:15 ►

lawyers who are suing you

01:19:17 ►

so the easier thing

01:19:19 ►

is to become a lawyer

01:19:20 ►

which they’re doing

01:19:23 ►

and medicine has I think lost its glamour to

01:19:29 ►

those of us who watch the general population. I’ve had some discouraging and disappointing

01:19:39 ►

and depressing conversations with students in colleges. And those of you that are not close to college,

01:19:45 ►

you’d be shocked at the way morale has dropped

01:19:49 ►

and the way a sense of confidence in themselves

01:19:52 ►

has dropped among college students today.

01:19:55 ►

Over and over again, I’ll have this conversation

01:19:57 ►

with a student driving me into the airport and said,

01:19:58 ►

what are you studying?

01:20:00 ►

Marketing.

01:20:02 ►

What are you studying?

01:20:03 ►

Finance.

01:20:04 ►

What are you studying? finance what are you studying?

01:20:05 ►

law

01:20:06 ►

communication

01:20:12 ►

that’s good

01:20:13 ►

and I said

01:20:17 ►

this one guy

01:20:17 ►

it’s chilling

01:20:19 ►

a 20 year old

01:20:21 ►

college student

01:20:21 ►

who said

01:20:21 ►

well I’m going to

01:20:23 ►

study accounting

01:20:23 ►

and then I’m going to

01:20:24 ►

go and I’m going to study legal of law and then I’m going to go and I’m studying legal of law

01:20:27 ►

and then I’m going to end up

01:20:28 ►

as a law clerk.

01:20:29 ►

So he knows that in 10 or 15 years

01:20:32 ►

he’s going to be doing tax law.

01:20:35 ►

Now that spooks me.

01:20:38 ►

I mean,

01:20:39 ►

and I say to him,

01:20:40 ►

I tell him,

01:20:43 ►

you know,

01:20:43 ►

in a nice friendly way,

01:20:44 ►

it’s my job to spook people a little bit. And I say to him, you know, in a nice, friendly way, it’s my job to spook people a little bit.

01:20:47 ►

And I say, you know, that spooks me.

01:20:49 ►

He said, why?

01:20:50 ►

I said, well, she, you know, you’re an intelligent person,

01:20:54 ►

and how come, you know, you can have all the,

01:20:56 ►

is that what you really want to be?

01:20:57 ►

He goes, no, I want to be a doctor.

01:21:00 ►

Why can’t you?

01:21:01 ►

He said, well, Mom and Dad, like every other Mom and Dad,

01:21:03 ►

they both have to work just to keep ends meeting

01:21:05 ►

after the last

01:21:06 ►

ten years

01:21:07 ►

of the Bush-Reagan

01:21:08 ►

administration

01:21:09 ►

and

01:21:10 ►

so this face

01:21:11 ►

simply can’t

01:21:12 ►

afford to put me through

01:21:14 ►

four years

01:21:15 ►

of medical school

01:21:16 ►

or of graduate school

01:21:17 ►

and the statistics

01:21:19 ►

that keep going up

01:21:20 ►

isn’t it

01:21:20 ►

like to put a kid

01:21:21 ►

through four years

01:21:22 ►

of college now

01:21:23 ►

costs what

01:21:24 ►

two hundred

01:21:24 ►

more thousand dollars

01:21:26 ►

and to think

01:21:28 ►

here’s a country

01:21:29 ►

that’s supposed

01:21:30 ►

to pride itself

01:21:30 ►

on empowering

01:21:31 ►

the individual

01:21:32 ►

and all that stuff

01:21:33 ►

and here are

01:21:33 ►

intelligent young

01:21:34 ►

women and men

01:21:35 ►

who

01:21:36 ►

who can’t

01:21:38 ►

pursue

01:21:40 ►

you know

01:21:41 ►

the very word

01:21:41 ►

liberal arts

01:21:43 ►

it makes Ronald Reagan go red and Nancy Reagan go red liberal and arts pursue, you know, the very word liberal arts.

01:21:47 ►

Then it makes Ronald Reagan go red and Nancy Reagan go red. Liberal and arts!

01:21:49 ►

I mean, get out of here.

01:21:53 ►

Jesse Helms, bust these people.

01:21:57 ►

I’m kind of circling around this notion about

01:21:59 ►

medicine losing some of its glamour

01:22:01 ►

partly because the path is not as

01:22:04 ►

quick and it’s so hard work,

01:22:05 ►

and because you’re really helping other people instead of helping yourself.

01:22:08 ►

Another reason for it is the work that many of us did in the 1950s

01:22:12 ►

when a small but increasingly large group of us in the 50s

01:22:17 ►

decided that the way to help individuals with some sort of behavioral problems

01:22:27 ►

or problems of bad thinking or whatever

01:22:29 ►

was not to get an M.D. and then put them on a couch,

01:22:36 ►

which is not very inspiring to one’s self-confidence,

01:22:39 ►

and keep them there for a while.

01:22:41 ►

So, as I mentioned yesterday,

01:22:43 ►

we started experimenting with the notion of group therapy,

01:22:48 ►

bringing together people in small groups.

01:22:50 ►

And I told you yesterday how this was doctors,

01:22:53 ►

the famous doctor and the psychiatrist in the airplane that you met.

01:22:58 ►

I mean, he was telling us then, well, that’s illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional to let patients.

01:23:03 ►

But, you know, we won that.

01:23:05 ►

We won that. And I

01:23:07 ►

think that the goal

01:23:09 ►

to kind of get approval

01:23:11 ►

of medical people is looking

01:23:13 ►

less and less

01:23:15 ►

cogent.

01:23:18 ►

1950, if you were to take

01:23:19 ►

a phone book, yellow pages of the phone book,

01:23:21 ►

and you’d look through the idea

01:23:23 ►

of where is there anything in the way of psychological help.

01:23:27 ►

And you’d see under physicians,

01:23:28 ►

you’d have pediatrics,

01:23:30 ►

and podiatrists,

01:23:31 ►

oh yeah, there’s psychiatrists.

01:23:33 ►

There were very few,

01:23:35 ►

if any, psychologists

01:23:36 ►

listed in the yellow pages,

01:23:38 ►

01:23:39 ►

I mean, psychologists

01:23:40 ►

didn’t list themselves

01:23:41 ►

on the yellow page.

01:23:42 ►

You were supposed to do research

01:23:43 ►

on Skinnerian, blah, blah, blah, and all that.

01:23:46 ►

So that the notion, really, literally, these are the facts, Max.

01:23:54 ►

Until the early 50s, the whole province of behavior change, changing the mind,

01:24:00 ►

so far it was the province not only just of medicine,

01:24:03 ►

but of a specialized version of medicine called psychiatry.

01:24:08 ►

Today, I know at least it’s true in L.A. and I know in San Francisco,

01:24:13 ►

if you look up in the yellow pages for people that offer help to others with mental questions and so forth,

01:24:21 ►

probably the number of psychiatrists has actually gone down,

01:24:25 ►

but maybe it’s the same.

01:24:26 ►

But when you get to psychologists,

01:24:28 ►

page after page,

01:24:29 ►

you know, the different,

01:24:30 ►

not to mention masseurs,

01:24:32 ►

not to mention drug counselors

01:24:34 ►

and marital counselors

01:24:35 ►

and all that,

01:24:36 ►

children and all that.

01:24:39 ►

So literally,

01:24:40 ►

there are probably 15 or 20 pages

01:24:42 ►

of the Yellow Pages

01:24:43 ►

devoted to non-medical approaches,

01:24:46 ►

which I take to—since I, too, am a reductionist of science, David,

01:24:54 ►

I like score statistics like that.

01:25:01 ►

Of course, I must tell you, David, that I’m not a reductionist scientist all the time

01:25:07 ►

I knew that Tim

01:25:10 ►

and without

01:25:14 ►

outing you

01:25:16 ►

or pulling you out of the closet

01:25:19 ►

you’re not a reductionist scientist

01:25:21 ►

all the time.

01:25:32 ►

Nobody’s supposed to know that.

01:25:32 ►

I know.

01:25:37 ►

The whole thing about putting people in categories,

01:25:40 ►

like when I said turn on tune and drop out,

01:25:44 ►

you know, shit, we didn’t mean you just leave home and don’t take a shower and listen to Beatles records and smoke marijuana.

01:25:50 ►

You know, I mean, the idea was you have to keep dropping out every minute, every hour, every day, or anything like that.

01:25:57 ►

And that’s, you know, it’s a basic, you learn that from Einstein in the 20th century.

01:26:04 ►

You’re not anything very long, you keep changing and improving

01:26:06 ►

people ask me what my

01:26:10 ►

zodiac sign is now

01:26:12 ►

I say, any fucking sign I want

01:26:15 ►

go with your luck

01:26:18 ►

sex is going to be alright

01:26:19 ►

profound rising, I can do it

01:26:22 ►

I can play 12 rows, it’s not bad

01:26:24 ►

when you’re throwing rising signs, I can’t it I can play 12 rows it’s not bad when you’re throwing

01:26:25 ►

rising signs

01:26:25 ►

I can’t handle

01:26:26 ►

a lot of that

01:26:27 ►

but

01:26:27 ►

people ask me

01:26:35 ►

am I vegetarian

01:26:35 ►

I say damn right

01:26:36 ►

I eat vegetables

01:26:37 ►

not all the time

01:26:40 ►

what do I do

01:26:42 ►

you don’t eat meat

01:26:44 ►

do you

01:26:44 ►

I say not me brother less than 5% of the time. What do I know? You don’t eat meat, do you? I said, not me, brother. Less than

01:26:47 ►

5% of the time, okay? Maybe an hour a day, what’s that? Oh, by the way, speaking of objective

01:27:03 ►

science and scorekeeping,

01:27:05 ►

that was a wonderful letter that was written from Albert Hoffman.

01:27:09 ►

Could we have a printed copy of that available?

01:27:12 ►

Boy, what a…

01:27:14 ►

At the end, by the way, I agree with you.

01:27:16 ►

He’s a great testimony.

01:27:19 ►

We’ll put him on the Super Bowl commercials.

01:27:38 ►

Hoffman had a wonderful idea, which I’m sure all of us have had it.

01:27:40 ►

Why couldn’t there be a simple

01:27:41 ►

business of scorekeeping?

01:27:43 ►

Not the government. Fuck the government. But why couldn’t there be a simple business of scorekeeping why shouldn’t, not the government fuck the government

01:27:46 ►

it wouldn’t take a lot of money at all

01:27:52 ►

to have a poll questionnaire study

01:27:55 ►

and get 20,000 people

01:27:59 ►

who took LSD

01:28:01 ►

and 20,000 people who did not match according to age,

01:28:05 ►

sex, bubble,

01:28:05 ►

and all that

01:28:06 ►

and then find out

01:28:07 ►

where they were at.

01:28:09 ►

Now, of course,

01:28:10 ►

when you get to the 60s

01:28:12 ►

and the 70s,

01:28:13 ►

a lot of the people

01:28:13 ►

that took LSD

01:28:14 ►

did not go to Vietnam

01:28:15 ►

so they didn’t come back

01:28:18 ►

in a body bag.

01:28:21 ►

But that’s just

01:28:21 ►

a side issue here.

01:28:23 ►

The reason why

01:28:24 ►

there has never been any such study

01:28:26 ►

because I’m totally confident that if a study of you took

01:28:29 ►

10,000 people who took LSD in the last 20 years

01:28:33 ►

and matched them against people

01:28:35 ►

I’d be very happy to stand up with my brothers and sisters

01:28:37 ►

and I think they would

01:28:38 ►

I don’t know, they might not be making as much money

01:28:42 ►

I’d like to see that kind of study done I don’t know, they might not be making as much money.

01:28:48 ►

I’d like to see that kind of study done.

01:28:55 ►

And by the way,

01:28:59 ►

being a, I’m a really obsessive psychometric scorekeeper, you know, and I really believe

01:29:03 ►

in keeping score. and I’m very

01:29:06 ►

I was very interested

01:29:07 ►

in the 60s and 70s

01:29:08 ►

I’d watch the

01:29:09 ►

Gallup polls

01:29:10 ►

about how many people

01:29:11 ►

were using marijuana

01:29:12 ►

and we were kind of

01:29:13 ►

keeping it as

01:29:13 ►

oh my god

01:29:14 ►

it was incredible

01:29:14 ►

it was 5 million

01:29:16 ►

then 10 million

01:29:16 ►

then 20 million

01:29:17 ►

then 30 million

01:29:17 ►

got it up to 60 million

01:29:18 ►

pretty soon

01:29:19 ►

Darryl Gates

01:29:20 ►

the chief of police

01:29:22 ►

of my hometown

01:29:23 ►

Los Angeles

01:29:24 ►

yeah he’s the guy that said that marijuana smokers should be taken out and shot.

01:29:33 ►

Not hard drug users, because number one, his son is a hard drug user.

01:29:40 ►

He had some logic for doing it, but anyway.

01:29:46 ►

Daryl Gates said about in 1970 sometime he said

01:29:48 ►

96%

01:29:54 ►

of the high school students in L.A.

01:29:56 ►

County have taken marijuana

01:29:58 ►

before they graduate

01:29:59 ►

see

01:29:59 ►

now number one I didn’t believe him

01:30:03 ►

but number two if that were true

01:30:05 ►

would you want your kid to be that 4% of alienated

01:30:09 ►

anti-social

01:30:13 ►

lonely people

01:30:19 ►

I mean 94%

01:30:21 ►

but now we come to today when it’s all changed.

01:30:26 ►

I was amused by a story.

01:30:30 ►

Anything that doesn’t have to do with Bush’s apocalyptic desire

01:30:35 ►

to have an Armageddon war with the Arabs,

01:30:38 ►

anything that doesn’t fit that,

01:30:39 ►

you can’t find any much news in the paper what’s going on.

01:30:44 ►

But there was a little.

01:30:44 ►

The war on drugs gets

01:30:45 ►

the war on drugs were winning it because

01:30:47 ►

for the first time they’ve been

01:30:49 ►

keeping statistics, the percentage

01:30:52 ►

of high school students who have used

01:30:53 ►

marijuana has dipped below 50%

01:30:56 ►

so we have 48%

01:30:57 ►

oh jeez

01:30:59 ►

I’m amazed that 48% would

01:31:01 ►

be dumb enough to admit it

01:31:03 ►

because I’ve been following

01:31:09 ►

these, you know, it’s my job as a statistician, but 15 years ago, like Daryl Gates said, if

01:31:17 ►

a man in a suit with a clipboard came around and said, do you smoke marijuana, kid? Yeah,

01:31:22 ►

sure, don’t you know me? Even if you didn’t,

01:31:26 ►

you would.

01:31:27 ►

You didn’t want to be, you know.

01:31:32 ►

Today, you’re a high school kid

01:31:34 ►

and some guy

01:31:36 ►

in a suit, the clipboard comes up, did you smoke

01:31:38 ►

marijuana? Who, me?

01:31:41 ►

So we’ve got to be semantically,

01:31:44 ►

linguistically correct here

01:31:45 ►

the situation is not how many people are smoking marijuana

01:31:48 ►

but how many will admit it to a man with a clipboard

01:31:51 ►

oh and I agree about the stuff about marijuana

01:32:03 ►

that’s interesting

01:32:04 ►

I make part of my living, honestly.

01:32:08 ►

I don’t know if I should apologize for this, but I debate very right-wing establishment of thought-turning types like G. Gordon Liddy.

01:32:21 ►

I frequently debate a man named Peter Bensinger, who for five years was the head of the DREAD DEA.

01:32:28 ►

And I’ve been amused and bemused and astounded to listen to the way these right-wing people talk about drugs,

01:32:36 ►

talking about doctors not knowing about the effects of…

01:32:42 ►

Gordon Liddick has never had a unauthorized

01:32:45 ►

thought in his life

01:32:47 ►

and all he has

01:32:49 ►

Gordon, I love to

01:32:51 ►

I really like Gordon a lot and I really

01:32:53 ►

treasure him for this thing that anytime you want to know

01:32:56 ►

what’s the kook right wing

01:32:58 ►

in the CIA Pentagon thinking

01:32:59 ►

he’ll tell you, one, two, three

01:33:01 ►

so you don’t have to worry about what the motives are

01:33:04 ►

so it’s amazing.

01:33:07 ►

He, of course,

01:33:07 ►

he knows everything

01:33:08 ►

because he’s been told

01:33:09 ►

by this, you know,

01:33:10 ►

them.

01:33:13 ►

It’s kind of curious to me

01:33:14 ►

as a student of semantics

01:33:16 ►

and linguistics,

01:33:17 ►

you know,

01:33:17 ►

the word marijuana

01:33:19 ►

to Liddy,

01:33:20 ►

and he goes,

01:33:22 ►

blah, blah, blah.

01:33:23 ►

He’s been taught.

01:33:24 ►

That’s called

01:33:24 ►

lack of motivation syndrome or something he goes, blah, blah, blah. He’s been taught. That’s called lack of motivation syndrome,

01:33:26 ►

something like that.

01:33:27 ►

So one toot, and you’re slack-faced with him.

01:33:32 ►

That’s so bad.

01:33:33 ►

LSD, you run out in the front of cars

01:33:36 ►

in the highway and get killed,

01:33:37 ►

or you jump out a window.

01:33:40 ►

Well, it’s true that the CIA people

01:33:42 ►

that use LSD jumped out a window.

01:33:47 ►

That doesn’t tell us much about LSD.

01:33:49 ►

It tells us a lot about set and setting.

01:33:57 ►

So the lady is, he’s no problem because everyone knows he doesn’t know anything about drugs.

01:34:03 ►

The students said

01:34:05 ►

well who are you in the trial

01:34:06 ►

have you ever taken it

01:34:07 ►

he said

01:34:07 ►

yes I have at one time

01:34:09 ►

been authorized

01:34:10 ►

indeed I was commanded

01:34:11 ►

by a medical officer

01:34:12 ►

to take a drug

01:34:13 ►

to counter pain

01:34:16 ►

I felt the invitation

01:34:20 ►

yes I felt

01:34:22 ►

wonderful

01:34:24 ►

and I respectfully asked the surgeon, please do not command me to

01:34:29 ►

take this again because I don’t want to go any farther with it. Anyway, that’s Gordon Liddy.

01:34:35 ►

But Ben Segers, he makes his living. He’s now president of a company that makes you pee in a

01:34:41 ►

bottle and he goes around scaring companies. You know that there’s one company alone,

01:34:46 ►

it’s called Syntex or something,

01:34:47 ►

$500 million a year they get

01:34:50 ►

for forcing people to pee in bottles.

01:34:52 ►

I mean, it’s called the drug abuse industry.

01:34:55 ►

But anyway, Ben Singer is now very involved

01:34:57 ►

in the drug abuse industry.

01:34:59 ►

So it’s amazing to me

01:35:01 ►

that he spends 95% of his time attacking marijuana.

01:35:09 ►

He will occasionally say, oh, yes, alcohol is a bad drug.

01:35:12 ►

I don’t like that.

01:35:12 ►

But, of course, we’re not going to.

01:35:15 ►

He never mentions nicotine.

01:35:16 ►

Well, that’s because of Jesse Helms, I guess, from North Carolina.

01:35:21 ►

But it’s astonishing, you know, all the statistics, you know, of death and fatality.

01:35:26 ►

And Kroc, you know, he’s trying to scare you by saying, I don’t care if you students get

01:35:33 ►

high, but what I care about is if you fly my plane. I don’t want you coming into LAX,

01:35:40 ►

you know. And he cites the case case the one case of the engineer

01:35:45 ►

on an Amtrak

01:35:46 ►

that

01:35:47 ►

a test showed

01:35:49 ►

that he had

01:35:49 ►

ingested marijuana

01:35:50 ►

sometime within

01:35:51 ►

the 14 days

01:35:52 ►

before it happened

01:35:53 ►

and

01:35:55 ►

I was

01:35:57 ►

joking with him

01:35:58 ►

once and I said

01:35:58 ►

there was one time

01:35:59 ►

where there was

01:36:00 ►

a worker

01:36:01 ►

forgot to put a

01:36:02 ►

door down

01:36:03 ►

in a ferry

01:36:04 ►

in Holland,

01:36:06 ►

and 200 people died because of that.

01:36:08 ►

You better check that, Peter.

01:36:09 ►

That guy was probably high on marijuana.

01:36:11 ►

You know what he did?

01:36:12 ►

He went to the office the next day and tried to do it.

01:36:14 ►

I mean, they’re looking for some way to scare people about marijuana.

01:36:19 ►

And you’re right.

01:36:20 ►

The case about your young people, that’s really tragic.

01:36:23 ►

What they’ve done to marijuana is they’ve made it so hard to get.

01:36:27 ►

I have trouble getting it.

01:36:37 ►

This guy, Bensinger,

01:36:39 ►

he says, for example, he’s got a more sophisticated line.

01:36:42 ►

He says, well, I say something like anyone with more than one finger forward knows that marijuana is much less dangerous,

01:36:52 ►

one-tenth percent dangerous as alcohol, and 90% of the audience will cheer when you say that.

01:36:57 ►

He says, that’s not true.

01:36:59 ►

That’s not true.

01:36:59 ►

Because marijuana contains 279 ethanol or something,

01:37:06 ►

and alcohol contains only one.

01:37:09 ►

So they have, marijuana is 279 times more dangerous

01:37:13 ►

because it gets in your fatty tissues, I know that.

01:37:17 ►

Yeah, smoke marijuana is going to get in your fatty tissues.

01:37:22 ►

Boys, you may be having an A cup problem

01:37:25 ►

See boys, you’re going to definitely lose your masculinity

01:37:28 ►

You smoke marijuana

01:37:28 ►

Oh yeah, you lose your immune system

01:37:32 ►

So you’re going to get AIDS

01:37:33 ►

I mean it goes down the list

01:37:34 ►

And I can’t believe it

01:37:35 ►

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon

01:37:40 ►

Where people are changing their lives

01:37:42 ►

One thought at a time

01:37:44 ►

Before I go, I’d like to suggest where people are changing their lives one thought at a time. and the evils of cannabis, to discuss the medical and scientific uses of these amazing chemicals.

01:38:07 ►

And now think about the state of this so-called war on drugs today.

01:38:11 ►

Right now, here in the USA, there are more people involved in the growing and distribution of cannabis

01:38:17 ►

than there are dental hygienists.

01:38:20 ►

And the U.S. marijuana market is bigger than the NFL or movies.

01:38:24 ►

And the ground for this progress was cleared is bigger than the NFL or movies.

01:38:29 ►

And the ground for this progress was cleared by men and women like the ones that we just heard from.

01:38:36 ►

A perfect example comes from a recent Salon 2 podcast from Symposia’s Psychedelic Storytime in Victoria.

01:38:39 ►

Do you remember the first story that was told?

01:38:47 ►

It was by a woman U.S. Army veteran who served in Iraq and was discharged after being diagnosed with severe PTSD.

01:38:57 ►

After at least one suicide attempt, she was fortunately accepted into Dr. Michael and Annie Mithoffer’s MAPS-sponsored MDMA study,

01:39:00 ►

the study of people suffering from PTSD.

01:39:03 ►

Her story is really powerful and worth listening to.

01:39:08 ►

Now think about the talk that we just heard that Rick Doblin gave.

01:39:14 ►

Now that was back in 1991 when there were fewer than 150 members of MAPS.

01:39:18 ►

There were no studies yet approved and even the web wasn’t here yet.

01:39:27 ►

However, Rick Doblin never gave up and even when faced with some highly improbable odds, he kept going. And people are now being helped thanks to the work of Rick and the rest of this panel and of course all of the

01:39:32 ►

supporters of MAPS, Arrowhead, Hefter, all of the other organizations that are providing funding for

01:39:37 ►

research. Another pioneer whose work stretches back even beyond 1991 is Dr. Thomas Roberts,

01:39:46 ►

whose work stretches back even beyond 1991, is Dr. Thomas Roberts, who we just heard from in the previous podcast from the salon. If, after hearing the pioneers in today’s talk,

01:39:53 ►

you would like to explore the possibilities of having a career in the field of psychedelics,

01:39:57 ►

then I suggest that you also listen once again to that interview with Dr. Roberts.

01:40:02 ►

He has some really good suggestions for you there.

01:40:06 ►

And for what it’s worth,

01:40:09 ►

although Timothy Leary and Bruce Eisner have sadly passed on,

01:40:12 ►

everyone else whose name you have heard today

01:40:14 ►

is still active,

01:40:15 ►

and they remain at the forefront of research

01:40:17 ►

into these magical molecules.

01:40:20 ►

Maybe it’s time for you to join them.

01:40:23 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

01:40:27 ►

Be well, my friends. Thank you.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

545 - Current Research and Future Trends of Psychedelics, Stanford 2_3_91

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Program Notes

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