Program Notes
https://www.patreon.com/lorenzohagerty
Guest speaker: Terence McKenna
Today’s podcast begins with Terence talking about the elephant in the ayahuasca room: purging, puking, barfing, vomiting or whatever you want to call it. Fortunately he moves on and speculates that the human break with nature came about due to a change in the climate. And he ends this part of the workshop talking about the dire state of affairs on the planet on that February day in 1991 as the First Gulf War was raging. Two of my favorite quotes from this talk are: “The modern nuclear family, and I’ve got one I know whereof I speak, is just a cauldron for neurosis. It makes impossible demands on everybody involved.” … and “The way you prove your worthiness is by not wrecking your home planet. You can’t join the galactic club if you wreck your home planet. They withdraw your membership application.”
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484 - This is the Mushroom’s Program
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486 - The Main Vein of the Peculiar
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space.
00:00:20 ►
This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.
00:00:23 ►
This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:30 ►
And I want to begin by passing along a message that, well, you may have already received it.
00:00:35 ►
Apparently, someone is using an email and pretending to be James Fadiman.
00:00:42 ►
This person has asked people to contact him about being in a microdose study being run by John Hopkins.
00:00:45 ►
Now, none of this is true. It’s not James Fadiman and no such study is being run by John Hopkins. Now, none of this is true. It’s not James Fadiman, and no such study is being done by John Hopkins. Hopefully, you haven’t responded
00:00:51 ►
to the links in that bogus email if you received it.
00:00:56 ►
Well, now today we’re going to listen to the next to last part of a weekend workshop with
00:01:01 ►
Terence McKenna. And to be completely honest with you,
00:01:07 ►
I think that I’ve probably overdone it here by playing so many of his talks.
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For what it’s worth, I’m really excited
00:01:12 ►
about some of the new programs
00:01:13 ►
that I’ll be podcasting this year.
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And I think that there are already enough
00:01:18 ►
Terrence McKenna talks here in the salon
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to last us for a while.
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But next week, I’ll be playing the last talk
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in this workshop,
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and then we’ll get on with some new material.
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But for today, we’re going to listen to a bit more McKenna.
00:01:36 ►
As you listen to this talk, it will become clear to you that even though many of us didn’t buy into Terrence’s end of history
00:01:41 ►
and arrival of the Eschaton rap,
00:01:43 ►
well, he most certainly believed it himself back in 1991.
00:01:48 ►
And as you listen to him talking about these things,
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it may be a good time to examine your own mind in regards to the future.
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When Terence gave this talk some 25 years ago,
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he and many of his followers were quite sure that in some manner or other
00:02:05 ►
the world was going to go through a significant shift if not end altogether in 2012.
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Well, I think it’s safe to say that that made-up emergency is now safely behind us.
00:02:17 ►
For myself, I must admit that for a long time I’ve been hoping to live long enough
00:02:23 ►
to at least see the end of the American Empire. For, as you know, all empires eventually come to an end. But over the last few years,
00:02:32 ►
it’s slowly dawned on me that this ugly empire isn’t going to dissolve anytime soon. And if you
00:02:39 ►
subscribe to the idea that today’s America isn’t at all unlike ancient Rome, well, then it would also be good
00:02:46 ►
for you to realize that it took Rome somewhere around 400 years after its peak of power before
00:02:52 ►
it was completely gone. What I’m getting at here is that, in my opinion, we should be gearing
00:02:58 ►
ourselves and our families up for the long haul. What if the American empire outlasts everyone who is alive at this very moment?
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What if the only change we are going to experience in our lifetimes is more of the same?
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More police violence, more surveillance, more income disparity, more wars, more refugees.
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You get the idea.
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The question I think that we should be asking ourselves is,
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how are we going to organize our own little local clans?
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You know, groups that can interact and survive during the centuries that it takes for this empire to come to an end.
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Think of occupied France during World War II.
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Maybe it’s time that we begin to organize the resistance while we still can.
00:03:42 ►
But for now, hold that thought until I return after we first listen
00:03:46 ►
to what Terrence has to say. So, with that cheerful little note, let’s join Terrence on an afternoon
00:03:54 ►
in February of 1991 when this talk was first given. At that time, the senior living member
00:04:01 ►
of the Bush-Clinton crime family, had begun the first Gulf War.
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And today we’re still in the midst of the second Gulf War
00:04:09 ►
that was begun by his screwhead son.
00:04:12 ►
And the world situation itself seems to be getting worse each day.
00:04:16 ►
If anything, the world seems to be a bigger mess
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than it was when Terrence gave this talk.
00:04:22 ►
So what if things aren’t that much different
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from what they are today, 25 years from now?
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In that case, where will you be?
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What will you be doing?
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But here’s the kicker.
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If you do it right, 25 years from now,
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you and your friends can be enjoying more freedom and joy
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than most of the other people on the planet.
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Of course, I’ll be dead by then,
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so you won’t be able to tell me whether I’m wrong or not.
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Actually, your life is much more in your hands than you may think sometimes.
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So why not take charge of it?
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And I’ll have more to say about that when I return.
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But first, here’s Terrence McKenna, who is going to begin by talking about throwing up.
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Barfing.
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But not because of all the bad news. This time it’s because of first ingesting a jungle brew called ayahuasca.
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The purging effect of ayahuasca. In South America, ayahuasca is called la purga, and
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for every person who hallucinates, there are probably five or six who just get sick and throw up.
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And this is culturally sanctioned.
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A lot of people, Peruvians are just like everybody else, a lot of people are ambivalent about being swept away by titanic visions.
00:05:43 ►
So people will just sip it in these ayahuasca circles and then vomit.
00:05:47 ►
It’s a tremendous worm killer,
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and worms are a major source of mortality in the tropics.
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If you take ayahuasca once a week, intestinal parasites are history for you.
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So it does have an effect on the health.
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There’s also been research done at SFMed
00:06:11 ►
to show that on petri dishes, at any rate,
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dilute ayahuasca kills the trypanosomal phase
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of the malarial organism.
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Well, if it is in some way even partially prophylactic for malaria, then this is another
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factor that would make it important for people to be taking it. They like the vomiting and stress it.
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When we went down there in 76, at first we didn’t vomit. We would fight the vomiting,
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fight the nausea. And it’s not overwhelming.
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Usually you can win it. And because I thought, you know, you should keep the whole dose down.
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But then a couple of times they dosed me heavily and I couldn’t keep it down. And I discovered
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that the really strong waves of hallucinations seemed to follow immediately upon the vomiting.
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immediately upon the vomiting and I think it’s probably very good to purge some of the people we were with were very secular and they would tell us all this stuff you’re not supposed to
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eat sugar you’re not supposed to have sex no salt no alcohol and then we would just observe them
00:07:20 ►
completely pigging out on all of these things and then we would say well what’s
00:07:25 ►
the deal and said oh yeah well that’s why we take ayahuasca then we get rid of all this bad stuff
00:07:31 ►
so it was this kind of thing but i think it’s very uh it’s very cleansing it’s the only one of these
00:07:39 ►
uh plant things as i said where there’s not a net energy loss. You actually feel better the next day.
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And then what they say, and this is, you know, field work for the future, what they say is that
00:07:53 ►
taking ayahuasca is just the beginning of ayahuasca and that the real thing is to keep a special diet and do it repeatedly over weeks.
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And I suspect from my own experiences down there
00:08:10 ►
that there is a way to tiptoe into something that if it’s not Buddhahood,
00:08:16 ►
you could sell it on the Western market for Buddhahood.
00:08:20 ►
I mean, there is a way to chemically tiptoe into a place of humor, balance, equilibrium, caring, openness, anticipation of difficulty, attention to other people’s needs.
00:08:37 ►
I mean, it actually begins to happen.
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It’s what I call appropriate activity.
00:08:42 ►
But I think what it is is it’s a kind it’s the dissolving of the ego
00:08:46 ►
it’s not something dramatic
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it’s just that you stop being
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an introspective
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selfish
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misbehaving
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loutish
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unfocused
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dweeb
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and you know
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but without anything dramatic happening this sloughs away and underneath
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is this shining caring attention giving person i’ve been in these places and god knows if it
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can trick me into enlightenment it will work for anybody because i don’t think i have the
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credentials for the real thing. But that’s what
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feeds this notion that I talked about a little this morning, that we’re in a state of dysfunctional
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neurosis caused by the absence of these plants in our lives. If we had these plants in our lives we would just feel better
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and we’re like
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rainforest creatures that have learned to adapt
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to a desert
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we live in this desert, we survive in it
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but constantly we’re haunted
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by a memory of a golden age
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a better time,
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when our sexual neuroses,
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our acquisitiveness,
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our fear of each other,
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all of these things were somehow not present.
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And the rationalists just sneer and say,
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oh, it’s a golden age,
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it’s been going on since Vico and the Bible. But I don’t think so.
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I think the myth of the fall into history
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is very real,
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that something bad has happened to us.
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And that’s why we’re dysfunctional,
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why we’re unable to solve our problems.
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You know, it began with the rise of the ego,
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male dominance
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property, possession
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control of women by men
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so forth and so on
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that was all happening in the late nomadic pastoral phase
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as soon as you add agriculture into the picture
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you get overproduction
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then you have hoarding
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now you can really go to hell in a handbasket
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because you have more food than you can eat,
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but you must protect it from starving neighbors.
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And how you’re going to then maintain a moral vision
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in a world where you fight people off who want your food supply.
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And then, as I mentioned this morning, the phonetic alphabet and all these things.
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But I feel this very deeply.
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It’s not a metaphor, this thing about how there has been a connection broken with the earth.
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All this yipping about the goddess is an effort to find this broken connection and plug it back in. When we find it, it’s not going to be like another religion
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or a political reformation or something like that.
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It’s much deeper than that.
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It’s actually our lost other half.
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And there’s a lot of talk that goes on about gender politics
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in human society,
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men versus women and so forth and so on.
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But when you stand off and get a little perspective on that, we human beings, all of us, are so yang
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that if there is a tension between us and the feminine,
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it isn’t within our species.
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It’s between us and vegetable nature, the slow-moving planetary mantle of life that is the counterpoise to our own furious and frenzied and destructive way of living out organic existence.
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And as soon as that connection was broken in Africa
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with the psychedelic religion,
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we began to go to hell in a handbasket.
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And the connection was not broken by an act of ill will
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or an act of intentionality.
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It was simply broken by a fluctuation of the climate.
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The mushrooms which had been available for thousands and thousands of years
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ceased to be available.
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The land became drier.
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The great mushroom festivals became seasonal
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the boundary dissolving, ego dissolving
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orgiastic festivals became less and less
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frequent, became centered on the solstices
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and the equinoxes and as the mushrooms
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became scarcer and
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cultural sophistication advanced
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there were experiments with preserving mushrooms.
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And the most successful, or perhaps unsuccessful,
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depending on how you view it,
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was to preserve them in honey.
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All graduates of Levi-Strauss’ thought
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will understand the complexity of honey.
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But what is important for our argument is that
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honey is itself capable of becoming a psychoactive substance through fermentation.
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But what you get then is mead or honey beer. Well, the qualities of a drug like alcohol on a social menu are completely different from
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the impact of a psychedelic on a social menu the psychedelic was in was promoting boundary
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dissolving sexual arousal group sexual activity and and that sort of thing the alcohol thing
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empowers
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misconstruing of social queuing
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and
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it does
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this weird thing, it lowers
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sensitivity to social boundaries
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at the same time that it
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empowers the personality
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to overreach those boundaries
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I mean, how much sexual imprinting on the part of women in our society,
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early sexual imprinting,
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goes on in the presence of intoxication by alcohol?
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I mean, it’s just almost basic to the game,
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and even more so before the last 50 years or so.
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I mean, you can almost say of Western civilization,
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nobody got laid for a thousand years unless they were juiced because they were so uptight.
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I mean, alcohol was the way you got to that moment in many cultures.
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Well, so this is just to show how unconsciously over centuries one plant ritual,
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one plant style can give way to a completely different plant style. And once the drying of
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the African continent had proceeded to the point where people were migrating out of Africa and settling in the
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ancient Middle East, then you have all the institutions that we associate with the illness
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of our own society. You have male dominance, stratified social hierarchy, and a city-state defended by armed men, a class of armed men.
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Add on to that a couple of thousand years later the phonetic alphabet, and it’s no wonder that
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there’s no sense at all of the living mystery of being in a dynamic balance with nature
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that we come out of. Anybody want to say anything on all that?
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Somebody asked last night
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about how are we going to save the world.
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And since this evening,
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I thought maybe we should talk about that
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a little bit,
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because this evening I’ll show you the time wave.
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And it argues that we don’t have to save the world
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because the world is going to disappear
00:17:06 ►
up its own nose in 22 years anyway
00:17:09 ►
so
00:17:10 ►
there’s not a whole lot of obligation on us
00:17:15 ►
to worry about it, we’re simply the witnesses to the end game
00:17:18 ►
but nevertheless, since that sounds to me
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like a long shot and I’m the inventor of the thing
00:17:24 ►
it might be good to prepare a backup position
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just in case the emanization of the eschaton
00:17:35 ►
is delayed somehow
00:17:37 ►
you know it’s pretty hard
00:17:43 ►
to figure out rationally where we’re going from here.
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Does anyone have any idea where we’re going from here?
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I mean, if you just extrapolate the trends in place,
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they lead to a world so science fiction-y that
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it’s hard to imagine
00:18:07 ►
and
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you know in some of these
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meetings we’ve talked about how
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the psychedelic viewpoint
00:18:18 ►
is always trying to
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meld
00:18:22 ►
things together to make a
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coincidencia positorum out of apparently
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dichotomous
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positions but there is
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this one issue where it’s very
00:18:32 ►
hard to get it going both
00:18:34 ►
ways and that is
00:18:36 ►
to try and figure out what our
00:18:38 ►
relationship to the earth
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is and
00:18:42 ►
then what we can do about it
00:18:44 ►
are we is our destiny
00:18:47 ►
to become the stewards of the earth
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are we to become like ecology
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tenders, gardeners
00:18:56 ►
on a planetary scale
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honoring species diversity
00:19:00 ►
detoxifying environments
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and promoting and somehow glorifying
00:19:10 ►
the steady state of ecology?
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Or is that now impossible
00:19:17 ►
and do we have to accept that you don’t make an omelet
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without breaking eggs
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and that
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the egg which we’re about to break
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is an entire living
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planet and that somehow
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in the name of
00:19:34 ►
the angel which wants
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to be born from the human
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soul we are
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going to
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justify about
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to witness,
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the destruction of an entire planet for the birthing of some kind of hyper-technological space-faring species.
00:19:55 ►
Well, I always assumed that Apollonian and Titanic,
00:20:02 ►
as that latter possibility is,
00:20:04 ►
that that’s what was actually going to happen
00:20:06 ►
that there was too much momentum
00:20:08 ►
to do anything else
00:20:10 ►
that we couldn’t stop our breaking out
00:20:14 ►
from this planet and probably ruining it
00:20:17 ►
in the process
00:20:19 ►
and the mushroom cheers this kind of stuff on
00:20:24 ►
and says,
00:20:30 ►
this is what the planet was born for, this is what the species exists for, that there can be no sentimentality about carbon chemistry.
00:20:37 ►
Information is on the march to higher and higher dimensions of self-reflection,
00:20:42 ►
and we are strangers here on our way
00:20:45 ►
to a grander and odder tomorrow
00:20:47 ►
in short, pure Gnosticism
00:20:49 ►
this universe is only a shell of our becoming
00:20:55 ►
and that was always my position
00:21:01 ►
because I assumed it was inevitable
00:21:03 ►
now I think that it’s not inevitable,
00:21:07 ►
that it is in fact impossible and unreachable. We’re not going anywhere. You can forget the
00:21:13 ►
triumphant march to the stars. You can forget all that Robert Heinlein stuff. We don’t have it,
00:21:21 ►
we’re not together enough. Monkeys too much. The kind of creature, the kind of planning, foresight, social coordination,
00:21:31 ►
and technical intelligence that is required to cross between the stars is out of our reach.
00:21:38 ►
And meantime, we are slipping into the quicksand of a toxified planet.
00:21:43 ►
into the quicksand of a toxified planet.
00:21:48 ►
Okay, well then, if it’s not possible to leave the planet and to take the high road, then what’s left?
00:21:53 ►
Are we, can we get hold of this situation?
00:21:57 ►
Can we halt what’s going on?
00:22:01 ►
Well, my style is to always try to go back to first principles,
00:22:06 ►
to get behind the problem,
00:22:08 ►
behind the problem,
00:22:09 ►
to try and boil everything down
00:22:11 ►
to some kind of mega problem
00:22:13 ►
that then maybe can be dealt with.
00:22:17 ►
And you’ve heard me say,
00:22:19 ►
or many of you have many times,
00:22:21 ►
that for my money,
00:22:23 ►
the problem is ego, that there is too much ego that we cannot
00:22:29 ►
the concept of ownership and of my right to to mercedes and a split level and then everybody
00:22:41 ►
else is right and so forth there isn’t’t enough glass, metal and plastic in this planet
00:22:47 ►
to give everybody a Malibu-style lifestyle.
00:22:51 ►
It just isn’t going to happen.
00:22:54 ►
Well, so then what lies ahead?
00:22:56 ►
If we’re not going to space, what lies ahead?
00:23:02 ►
And it looks to me like unless there’s very careful social management,
00:23:09 ►
great difficulties lie ahead.
00:23:14 ►
The species equivalent of what I’ve been calling ego
00:23:18 ►
is the inability to curb our drive to reproduce ourselves.
00:23:26 ►
As a species, this is our chauvinistic,
00:23:30 ►
the center of our chauvinistic complex.
00:23:33 ►
We have put economic systems in place
00:23:38 ►
that have implicit in them the assumption
00:23:42 ►
of more and more and more and more people.
00:23:47 ►
And it’s more and more and more people that are destroying the planet
00:23:52 ►
because capitalism has this built-in assumption of, you know, ever-expanding populations.
00:24:01 ►
This notion that there is some value in just endlessly producing people is impossible
00:24:08 ►
for me to understand. I mean, you would have to bring the Catholic Church around on this issue.
00:24:17 ►
But I think that, you know, it’s like the greening of Buddhism or something like that.
00:24:28 ►
Celibacy has always been marketed as a fine and mighty thing.
00:24:33 ►
I could never understand why.
00:24:35 ►
It just seemed to me a source of neurotic contortion.
00:24:39 ►
But we could define celibacy differently.
00:24:43 ►
We could define celibacy as a commitment not to have children.
00:24:49 ►
That’s a meaningful celibacy from society’s point of view.
00:24:54 ►
You’ve actually done something for society.
00:24:57 ►
And you haven’t pushed yourself out of shape.
00:24:59 ►
We don’t need you to become a eunuch.
00:25:02 ►
We just need a little restraint. Well, then the problem
00:25:07 ►
then with this rap, I think, is that it seems to be to go against one of our most cherished icons,
00:25:15 ►
which is the nuclear family. But I’m beginning to think that the nuclear family is actually a dinosaur and that it is far from being this wonderful institution,
00:25:30 ►
thousands of years old,
00:25:32 ►
which is our last link with anything meaningful and human.
00:25:37 ►
That’s not what the nuclear family is.
00:25:39 ►
The nuclear family was dreamed up in 1600,
00:25:43 ►
right before the Thirty Years’ War.
00:25:45 ►
And before that, everybody lived in extended families
00:25:50 ►
in multiple generational dwellings,
00:25:54 ►
and women had great support in child rearing
00:25:58 ►
from their sisters and the wives of their brothers
00:26:01 ►
and so forth and so on.
00:26:02 ►
The modern nuclear family, and I’ve got one, I know whereof I speak,
00:26:09 ►
is just a cauldron for neurosis.
00:26:12 ►
It makes impossible demands on everybody involved.
00:26:18 ►
And the last census showed that something like three-quarters of American households
00:26:25 ►
are no longer organized that way.
00:26:29 ►
They have some other arrangement.
00:26:33 ►
I think that this one woman, one child thing is,
00:26:38 ►
first of all, it rests upon women to implement it.
00:26:42 ►
Second of all, it seems to me it’s tremendously empowering of women
00:26:47 ►
because the second child,
00:26:51 ►
to my observing mind,
00:26:53 ►
the second child is the way that male dominance
00:26:57 ►
is driven home in the modern marriage
00:27:01 ►
and that a woman can be independent with one child.
00:27:07 ►
With two children, if she’s not superhuman,
00:27:10 ►
she’s going to have to cut a deal
00:27:12 ►
with the prevailing system of male dominance
00:27:16 ►
that is in place.
00:27:19 ►
Well, I just toss these ideas out there
00:27:21 ►
because I think it’s interesting we never hear these things.
00:27:27 ►
It could be very easily done and if we are not going to go to space, then I think we have to
00:27:35 ►
immediately plan a sane future. We cannot continue as we have. Now, you might object, and I’m sure many people would, that this one woman, one child
00:27:47 ►
thing is a tremendous interference in basic civil liberties. But you have to remember,
00:27:55 ►
we’re not comparing it to heaven. We’re comparing it to the future we’re going to have if we don’t get some of these problems under control.
00:28:06 ►
And the thing I like about this idea is people volunteer.
00:28:11 ►
It’s self-organizing.
00:28:13 ►
We don’t have the central committee on population and eugenics control
00:28:18 ►
saying who may have children and who may not.
00:28:22 ►
You appeal to people’s higher self. I think that in our society
00:28:28 ►
presently, there’s a lot of tension around the issue of having or not having children.
00:28:35 ►
And many people manage, if they don’t have children, to define themselves as somehow
00:28:40 ►
incomplete. I think this is a terrible mistake
00:28:45 ►
that the reflexes that served
00:28:48 ►
during the last glaciation,
00:28:50 ►
you know, to propagate furiously
00:28:52 ►
as much as possible,
00:28:54 ►
may not be the reflexes
00:28:57 ►
that really serve the community
00:28:59 ►
as we approach six billion people
00:29:02 ►
on the planet.
00:29:04 ►
So I would like, instead of all this ballyhooing of the nuclear family
00:29:08 ►
that we get from politicians,
00:29:12 ►
I would like the independent choices of women
00:29:16 ►
to limit childbearing to be supported.
00:29:21 ►
And I think men could support that society could support that
00:29:26 ►
and that single
00:29:28 ►
area of activity
00:29:30 ►
would give us breathing space
00:29:32 ►
to solve all our other problems
00:29:35 ►
because every other area
00:29:38 ►
where we make a start
00:29:39 ►
toward a solution
00:29:40 ►
it’s swept away
00:29:42 ►
by population growth
00:29:44 ►
this is just unconscionable it’s swept away by population growth. This is just unconscionable. It’s intolerable.
00:29:48 ►
Speaking of unconscionable, as a former Catholic
00:29:52 ►
I think it behooves me to just stomp
00:29:56 ►
all over them. They have a population
00:29:59 ►
policy which I equate with the final solution for the
00:30:04 ►
Jews in Nazi Germany.
00:30:06 ►
I mean, how in the world you can support continued uncontrolled birth in the third world
00:30:14 ►
when it shoves millions of people into poverty and death?
00:30:18 ►
Entire societies go on to the triage list,
00:30:22 ►
and people are squawking that it’s immoral
00:30:25 ►
to intervene in this situation
00:30:27 ►
I just don’t understand
00:30:29 ►
this is to me, this is another bugaboo
00:30:31 ►
of mine, but this is to me
00:30:33 ►
a perfect example of what I call
00:30:35 ►
the poisonous nature of ideology
00:30:37 ►
that you know
00:30:39 ►
will sink in a sea of slime
00:30:42 ►
if it’s up to the Pope
00:30:43 ►
rather than just change your mind you know you
00:30:47 ►
speak ex cathedra they said it one way say it another way times change god said times change
00:30:54 ►
so here’s the change i mean it’s it’s absurd and you know this war was justified under the grounds that evil was out of control in a part of the world.
00:31:08 ►
It was just running roughshod over whole nations and peoples.
00:31:12 ►
But this population policy thing is pushing many more people into death and degradation
00:31:19 ►
than the policies of the Ba’athist party in Iraq, believe me.
00:31:24 ►
So I think we need to think about these things.
00:31:27 ►
Why psychedelics, why this is appropriate in a weekend like this,
00:31:31 ►
is because the rest of society has this tremendous intellectual constipation,
00:31:38 ►
momentum, stodginess.
00:31:41 ►
They can’t change their mind simply because they can’t change their mind. Psychedelics
00:31:47 ►
are almost the precondition for clearing the table for a rational discussion of, you know,
00:31:54 ►
how can we create a sane and human future? How many people should be on this earth? And what
00:32:02 ►
mix? What should be the role of men and women toward each other toward nature toward the children toward the future we we need to have this kind of a global discussion the calendar is a wind blowing at our backs because by great good fortune
00:32:26 ►
we will live through a millennial year
00:32:30 ►
happens once every thousand years
00:32:33 ►
it’s a great opportunity for us
00:32:35 ►
to make a shrewd public relations move
00:32:39 ►
and force an evaluation
00:32:42 ►
of where we’ve been
00:32:44 ►
and where do we want to go.
00:32:46 ►
Well, let’s see.
00:32:47 ►
954, King Canute unites England and invades Norway.
00:32:53 ►
We started there. We end now.
00:32:56 ►
George Bush invades Iraq.
00:32:59 ►
It looks like we haven’t come very far in a thousand years.
00:33:04 ►
The bombs are smarter,
00:33:06 ►
the politicians are as stupid as they ever were.
00:33:11 ►
But now we are a global society
00:33:14 ►
united by electronic media,
00:33:17 ►
thinking as one mind.
00:33:20 ►
And it’s very important, I think,
00:33:23 ►
in this last decade before the millennium to try and shed some of the ideology of the past and try and plot a way toward a sane world.
00:33:35 ►
I mean, we’ve talked about a number of things here.
00:33:37 ►
A technical fix, visible language, which can be accomplished either through drugs and computers or a combination of the two.
00:33:48 ►
A social fix, one woman, one child.
00:33:53 ►
And these things are not mutually exclusive.
00:33:58 ►
There are other things that can be done, but I think this population thing is just very basic,
00:34:05 ►
and the debate that can be spawned around it, the education that can go on around talking about this population thing,
00:34:14 ►
will lead in to all of these other issues, because what we’re actually doing is we’re coming to the end of our childhood,
00:34:23 ►
and we are being given, metaphorically, the keys to the end of our childhood and we are being given metaphorically
00:34:25 ►
the keys to the family car
00:34:28 ►
and the family car is the planet
00:34:30 ►
and so now they’re saying okay go forth and drive
00:34:34 ►
and try to stay out of trouble
00:34:38 ►
and
00:34:39 ►
I don’t think any area of discussion
00:34:43 ►
should be off limits.
00:34:46 ►
I think if pharmacological invention against human bestiality and cloddishness is possible,
00:34:56 ►
then that should be entertained.
00:34:57 ►
If we can consciously limit our population, that should be entertained.
00:35:01 ►
And, you know, there’s a slew of exotic possibilities.
00:35:07 ►
I mean, if everybody were the size of a piss ant we could all live in Utah
00:35:09 ►
or you know
00:35:14 ►
some people think we’re going to be downloaded
00:35:17 ►
into a black cube on the back side of the moon
00:35:20 ►
I don’t know
00:35:21 ►
I suspect it’s going to be more mundane than that
00:35:25 ►
and that instead of just waiting
00:35:27 ►
for the flying saucers to save us
00:35:30 ►
it’s actually going to take
00:35:32 ►
an act of human self-discipline
00:35:35 ►
and
00:35:35 ►
self-control
00:35:38 ►
it looks like
00:35:40 ►
tragedy
00:35:41 ►
there’s a lot of blood and moaning
00:35:43 ►
and thrashing and agony you
00:35:46 ►
would never dream that this was not only part of the plan but the culmination of
00:35:51 ►
the plan and you know we are birthing something here the question is are we
00:35:58 ►
birthing something that will honor the planet or is the planet the placenta of this birth
00:36:05 ►
and when it’s over with
00:36:06 ►
the planet will be finished with
00:36:09 ►
and it’ll just be disposable somehow
00:36:12 ►
I mean that’s a mind-boggling concept
00:36:14 ►
but we don’t know what’s going on here
00:36:16 ►
we do not know what is happening here
00:36:20 ►
the rest of nature presents no problem
00:36:24 ►
I mean through the theory of molecular genetics
00:36:27 ►
and darwinism and so forth we understand nature on its surface pretty well but when we come to
00:36:36 ►
ourselves you know we’re a miracle and a mystery the language the, the spiritual yearnings all this is very puzzling in the context of mindless nature
00:36:49 ►
I don’t take issue with the idea
00:36:53 ►
it’s obviously a great idea
00:36:54 ►
but I can’t imagine it having more adherence than the flat earth theory
00:36:58 ►
is this the idea about limiting population?
00:37:01 ►
yeah, I can’t imagine it ever catching on
00:37:03 ►
unless there was some other psychological mutation. I mean,
00:37:07 ►
only a handful of people would ever…
00:37:11 ►
And plus,
00:37:12 ►
it seems like it’s a woman’s solution,
00:37:14 ►
but men are making the laws about birth
00:37:15 ►
control and abortion.
00:37:18 ►
Well, you’re saying
00:37:20 ►
that it would never catch
00:37:22 ►
on disturbs me, because
00:37:23 ►
essentially you’re saying
00:37:25 ►
I wasn’t persuasive.
00:37:29 ►
So I’m dead in the water.
00:37:32 ►
If I can’t persuade you,
00:37:34 ►
how am I going to persuade
00:37:36 ►
the matrons of Beverly Hills?
00:37:39 ►
They wouldn’t even come here
00:37:40 ►
in the first place.
00:37:41 ►
You may persuade all of us,
00:37:42 ►
but we’re already a tiny minority.
00:37:45 ►
Well, this brings up the subject of meme replication.
00:37:50 ►
Do you all know what a meme is?
00:37:52 ►
A meme is the smallest unit
00:37:55 ►
out of which ideas are made.
00:37:58 ►
In the same way that a gene is…
00:38:01 ►
Proteins are made by genes,
00:38:03 ►
well, ideas are made by memes.
00:38:06 ►
And what I see myself doing here, I mean, very consciously, I’ll reveal the game plan to you,
00:38:12 ►
is I’m a meme generator, and you are meme receivers.
00:38:20 ►
And then your job is to generate the meme again.
00:38:24 ►
And faithful copying is very important here
00:38:28 ►
just like in genetics
00:38:29 ►
because if you get it wrong
00:38:30 ►
it’s not the same meme
00:38:32 ►
please pay attention
00:38:37 ►
so I really believe
00:38:41 ►
I mean maybe this is the last shred of my idealism,
00:38:46 ►
but I really do believe the best idea will win,
00:38:49 ►
that the best idea will replicate and consume and digest
00:38:55 ►
and replicate its competition, and it will win.
00:39:00 ►
And that this is why I’m very optimistic,
00:39:02 ►
because I love the environment of electronic media.
00:39:06 ►
As long as we can be allowed to meet like this and talk, we can win.
00:39:13 ►
Because, you know, it was William Blake who said a wonderful thing.
00:39:19 ►
He said, the truth cannot be told so as to be understood without being believed.
00:39:29 ►
Do you understand?
00:39:30 ►
In other words, if you can tell the truth to somebody and they understand you, belief is automatic.
00:39:38 ►
You don’t even have to worry about that.
00:39:41 ►
What’s important is that they understand you.
00:39:42 ►
about that. What’s important is that they understand you.
00:39:43 ►
And so
00:39:44 ►
what we’re trying to do here
00:39:47 ►
is build understanding.
00:39:50 ►
I think
00:39:51 ►
what objection
00:39:54 ►
would people have to this?
00:39:56 ►
I mean, what is the
00:39:57 ►
great rhetorical comeback
00:40:00 ►
to this idea?
00:40:02 ►
Oh, you’ve got it? What is it?
00:40:04 ►
Well, just not to one, this idea? Oh, you’ve got it? What is it? Well, just not that
00:40:06 ►
one, it’s an idea
00:40:07 ►
that crosses a lot of
00:40:10 ►
religious beliefs
00:40:11 ►
and political beliefs, but there’s also
00:40:14 ►
just another thought about
00:40:15 ►
when you brought forth that idea of the solution of
00:40:17 ►
one woman, one child,
00:40:20 ►
there’s the classic Gandhi statement
00:40:22 ►
of there’s enough for the world’s need
00:40:24 ►
but not enough for the world’s greed,
00:40:25 ►
which gets back to where you originally started out with,
00:40:29 ►
you know, in this situation because of ego,
00:40:31 ►
nuclear family systems have been set up politically, economically, etc.
00:40:35 ►
So, you know, maybe we can move all those people from the back streets of India
00:40:39 ►
and move them all the way to Montana.
00:40:41 ►
We don’t have to be this big.
00:40:42 ►
There seems to be, you know, the Earth,
00:40:42 ►
And Montana, we don’t have to be this big.
00:40:44 ►
There seems to be, you know, the Earth,
00:40:49 ►
one seems to be self-generating to an extent of different, you know, other thoughts need to be…
00:40:54 ►
So you would argue that we are, that steady state is sufficient,
00:40:59 ►
that we should not try to reduce population,
00:41:02 ►
but that we should just stay at a certain number
00:41:05 ►
and that the earth is sufficient to support that number.
00:41:08 ►
The problem is a great leveling will have to take place
00:41:14 ►
to give a decent standard of living to most people,
00:41:17 ►
and that leveling is going to come right out of this society
00:41:21 ►
because we’re at the top of the pyramid.
00:41:24 ►
No, I think a different consciousness
00:41:26 ►
towards the usage.
00:41:27 ►
Towards matter.
00:41:29 ►
Well, but this gets close to being
00:41:31 ►
a virtual reality solution.
00:41:34 ►
You either are saying people should become Zen monks
00:41:38 ►
or we’re going to give them an electronic simulacrum
00:41:43 ►
of the world that will be very cheap to produce, but as satisfying as reality. I’m sure that an across all kinds of religious and social taboos,
00:42:07 ►
but I think that if you look at each one of those taboos,
00:42:10 ►
you’ll find them rooted in male dominance,
00:42:13 ►
and that what this is is it’s at a lightning stroke.
00:42:18 ►
You just end male dominance.
00:42:21 ►
Women with one child and a government supporting that as a policy
00:42:27 ►
with subsidies
00:42:28 ►
in a stroke would liberate
00:42:31 ►
women from much of the
00:42:33 ►
machinery of their oppressive
00:42:35 ►
position in society
00:42:37 ►
so
00:42:38 ►
and then people say well but what about
00:42:41 ►
people who want more than one children
00:42:43 ►
one child well good lord the world is adrift in orphans, awash in orphans.
00:42:50 ►
And then if you say, well, but I want my child, well, then we’re right.
00:42:54 ►
But that’s what we’re saying no to is this genetic ego chauvinism.
00:42:59 ►
I mean, once you can have your one child,
00:43:03 ►
but just the notion that your genes are to be spread like chaff to the wind is…
00:43:08 ►
It’s not the idea. It’s how do you… how will people even listen to it?
00:43:12 ►
It’s so… against all their conditioning.
00:43:15 ►
Not just…
00:43:16 ►
No, I think it’s actually… isn’t it happening?
00:43:19 ►
Aren’t there…
00:43:19 ►
China is mandatory.
00:43:22 ►
You get penalized if you have more than one child.
00:43:24 ►
But that’s not what we want.
00:43:26 ►
We don’t want that.
00:43:27 ►
But I get the feeling that there are thousands of women
00:43:31 ►
with one child around
00:43:33 ►
who have made a decision to live
00:43:36 ►
without a permanent man in their life
00:43:39 ►
or perhaps with a permanent man in their life,
00:43:41 ►
but they have made the decision that in order to have a career,
00:43:44 ►
a degree of independence, a degree of financial comfort life, but they have made the decision that in order to have a career, a degree of independence,
00:43:45 ►
a degree of financial comfort
00:43:48 ►
that they wouldn’t have otherwise.
00:43:50 ►
I think this is happening
00:43:51 ►
on an undetected and large scale.
00:43:54 ►
It’s just that we have not given it any support,
00:43:57 ►
but we should.
00:43:59 ►
We should say,
00:44:00 ►
these women are the heroes of the future.
00:44:02 ►
These are the people
00:44:03 ►
who are creating the new paradigm.
00:44:05 ►
It’s not being created in seminars at Esalen.
00:44:07 ►
It’s creating as people actually create new kinds of lives
00:44:12 ►
in order to deal with the world as they find it.
00:44:15 ►
In Japan, just recently, there’s a big controversy
00:44:18 ►
that’s been raging for the last few months about this issue,
00:44:21 ►
and they’re trying to get the women there to only have one child
00:44:28 ►
they’re offering on cash incentives i mean granted the cash incentives in the way of their economy
00:44:33 ►
are quite minimal but you know again it’s not it’s not self-expression but well now it’s interesting
00:44:43 ►
i’d like to know more about this, because first of all,
00:44:46 ►
Japan is one of the most child-worshipping
00:44:48 ►
societies in the world.
00:44:50 ►
Second of all, it’s one of the most
00:44:52 ►
consumer-intense
00:44:54 ►
societies in the world.
00:44:56 ►
So, if the Japanese
00:44:58 ►
government is encouraging a one-woman,
00:45:00 ►
one-child policy,
00:45:01 ►
there should be immediate
00:45:03 ►
relief and release of resources somewhere else in
00:45:07 ►
the world, because probably the Japanese child also is using 800 times as much resources.
00:45:15 ►
Well, I’m all for this. I think it should be debated. If I’ve made a serious error,
00:45:20 ►
if somebody can run the demographic modeling, I’d like to know how fast will it fall
00:45:25 ►
unlike you who thinks it couldn’t be sold
00:45:28 ►
I’m already grappling with the problem of
00:45:31 ►
how would you persuade people to stop it
00:45:34 ►
as they observed decade over decade
00:45:38 ►
over decade themselves get richer
00:45:41 ►
better taken care of
00:45:43 ►
their vast estates become ever more vast,
00:45:46 ►
the cost of art falling,
00:45:49 ►
the cost of everything falling?
00:45:51 ►
How would you say,
00:45:52 ►
okay, folks, we’ve been at this 125 years.
00:45:55 ►
Now everybody go back to having as many children as they want.
00:46:00 ►
I think this would be the real problem,
00:46:02 ►
is to shut it off once you’ve demonstrated
00:46:04 ►
what a good thing it is.
00:46:07 ►
Yeah.
00:46:08 ►
Well, we’ve already seen some level of this in the baby boom generation
00:46:15 ►
deferring having children.
00:46:18 ►
So we’ve had a, right now at a 20-year-old age,
00:46:22 ►
we have a decline in the population.
00:46:26 ►
That’s kicking to a new boom behind that.
00:46:30 ►
But the implications are the incredible value that would be placed on the children that you did have.
00:46:39 ►
Oh, incredible value.
00:46:40 ►
These children would have an education, and they would inherit a sane, detoxified,
00:46:46 ►
non-violent, I mean, it’s what we want.
00:46:49 ►
And I’m amazed that the
00:46:52 ►
mushroom could get it together in one sentence.
00:46:54 ►
Here’s a question, how do you save the world?
00:46:58 ►
Says, you know, one woman, one child
00:47:01 ►
and then you go back and you run the scene and you say, my God,
00:47:03 ►
this is it. All we have to do is sell
00:47:06 ►
it. But now, why
00:47:08 ►
should it be hard to sell? I think a lot
00:47:10 ►
of people have children
00:47:11 ►
because they think they should.
00:47:15 ►
And it makes
00:47:16 ►
them poorer,
00:47:18 ►
it scatters their energy,
00:47:20 ►
and not everyone
00:47:22 ►
finds it, you know,
00:47:23 ►
a tremendously rewarding experience.
00:47:25 ►
You can tell that by the statistics on child abuse, abandonment, and that sort of thing.
00:47:32 ►
I think we should see it not as a biological function
00:47:37 ►
that we’re all likely to participate in in our lives,
00:47:41 ►
but the highest calling to which a human being can aspire and the generation
00:47:47 ►
of new people for the next twist of the spiral. Yeah, Billy.
00:47:52 ►
Well, I think he wanted to include with that a restructuring of the family in order that
00:47:56 ►
children could have co-children, because that’s a big thing for having more than one children.
00:48:02 ►
A big motivation is to provide growth made
00:48:05 ►
play made
00:48:06 ►
the archaic model is the long
00:48:10 ►
house or the extended
00:48:11 ►
family and I think
00:48:13 ►
that what the automobile
00:48:15 ►
did to the nuclear
00:48:17 ►
family which was first of all it made
00:48:20 ►
it possible but it’s a
00:48:21 ►
completely maladaptive
00:48:23 ►
style men become breadwinners they have offices
00:48:28 ►
far from the home they are ground down by a set of concerns that their wife and children never see
00:48:36 ►
the woman is essentially a hearth slave chained to the tasks of the house and to the idiot cycle of consuming that children have too tight an interaction with each other
00:48:49 ►
not a tight enough interaction
00:48:51 ►
there are not multiple role models
00:48:54 ►
in the form of uncles, cousins, aunts
00:48:57 ►
coming and going
00:48:59 ►
in an Amazonian tribe
00:49:02 ►
if you have a hassle with your family,
00:49:07 ►
you just take down your hammock and move three posts down to your uncle’s family.
00:49:14 ►
And it’s a big deal.
00:49:15 ►
You’ve moved out.
00:49:16 ►
But it’s only from me to Cheryl, you know.
00:49:19 ►
But it’s a statement about space and commitment.
00:49:23 ►
And then if you piss on your uncle, he’ll throw you out.
00:49:26 ►
And then you have to go somewhere else.
00:49:27 ►
And children move and they choose their role models.
00:49:32 ►
And it’s all, we really have to get back to feeling human,
00:49:38 ►
to feeling good about ourselves.
00:49:40 ►
I am in total agreement with you.
00:49:43 ►
But what I am feeling increasingly pessimistic about
00:49:45 ►
is that we and i use the term collectively are ever going to be able to get that kind of unity
00:49:51 ►
and agreement behind anything i don’t see anything to indicate that we’re moving in that direction
00:49:57 ►
and it absolutely breaks my heart but yes if we got behind just that one idea of course it would
00:50:03 ►
transform the world.
00:50:07 ►
But there are a lot of other ideas too.
00:50:10 ►
It just seems to me that we, again,
00:50:12 ►
the ego is driving the machine and unless there’s that radical shift
00:50:14 ►
in consciousness on this large level,
00:50:17 ►
I just don’t see it happening
00:50:18 ►
and I feel exceedingly discouraged by that.
00:50:21 ►
Well, what I liked, as I said,
00:50:24 ►
about this idea was number one it didn’t
00:50:26 ►
depend on men that eliminates half of everybody so that we’ve a limit now it’s critically dependent
00:50:35 ►
on half of the human race and then what i really like about it is that the women that it is least
00:50:41 ►
important to convert are the women that it would be hardest to convert.
00:50:48 ►
In other words, it’s least important to convert the women of India,
00:50:55 ►
the women of Bangladesh,
00:50:56 ►
because their children aren’t impacting on resources anyway.
00:51:01 ►
So it should be easiest to reach the college educated, high tech, independently minded,
00:51:10 ►
liberal, financially comfortable American or European woman. Well, if that’s who we have to
00:51:18 ►
convince, then I feel hope. I feel that that’s a constituency from which I would expect fair treatment,
00:51:27 ►
a decent hearing, and so forth. Yeah, I’m just working this out over the past 10 days,
00:51:34 ►
so I’m very interested in feedback. It’s not really my bailiwick, but this how do we save
00:51:41 ►
the world thing comes up all the time. And many people in these workshops ask me the question,
00:51:46 ►
what can I personally do?
00:51:50 ►
And I never had, I just had some namby-pamby answer.
00:51:53 ►
You should be aware of, oh God, I don’t know.
00:51:58 ►
Well, here’s something you can do.
00:52:01 ►
Limit your reproductive expression to one child.
00:52:03 ►
You are having, This is the most politically
00:52:06 ►
high impact
00:52:07 ►
act you will ever have.
00:52:10 ►
I mean, the people on the other
00:52:12 ►
side of the planet that you will never meet
00:52:14 ►
will thank you if they
00:52:15 ►
but could.
00:52:17 ►
Men should support
00:52:20 ►
women in this choice.
00:52:22 ►
Is it celibacy or
00:52:23 ►
sterilization what choices
00:52:25 ►
that women are making do we have to demand
00:52:27 ►
you mean
00:52:29 ►
after the first child what happens
00:52:32 ►
yeah well I think that
00:52:34 ►
there are many options
00:52:35 ►
so they should all be exercised
00:52:37 ►
we’re not talking about mass sterilization
00:52:40 ►
here I have two
00:52:41 ►
children as soon
00:52:44 ►
as I had my second child I had had a vasectomy. It just seemed
00:52:47 ►
to me like the socially responsible thing to do. I will not stand up in front of a group of people
00:52:53 ►
and advocate vasectomy because I think I was lied to about what it’s like.
00:53:02 ►
I mean, they said, oh oh it’s a little procedure
00:53:05 ►
a little procedure snip snip
00:53:07 ►
he said hey
00:53:08 ►
I won’t give you the gory details
00:53:11 ►
but
00:53:12 ►
it’s certainly politically
00:53:15 ►
a defensible thing
00:53:16 ►
I think this is where if you’re serious
00:53:19 ►
about making a political impact
00:53:21 ►
this is where we can all
00:53:23 ►
have a tremendous impact and it’s on us
00:53:25 ►
because our children are such
00:53:27 ►
rapacious users
00:53:29 ►
of the world
00:53:31 ►
and its resources, and somehow we have to
00:53:34 ►
recognize that.
00:53:36 ►
Cut down the numbers, then we can still
00:53:38 ►
use the same power. I see what you’re saying.
00:53:40 ►
No, no. Solar is
00:53:41 ►
screwed. No, all I’m suggesting
00:53:44 ►
here is that this would buy us breathing
00:53:46 ►
time I’m not saying
00:53:48 ►
to figure out how we’re going to solve
00:53:52 ►
the very problems you’re talking about I’m not
00:53:54 ►
suggesting we go back to the 17th century
00:53:56 ►
and live on vast estates
00:53:58 ►
and burn coal and wood because
00:54:00 ►
there are only half a billion of us
00:54:02 ►
on earth no I think that
00:54:04 ►
if we drop the pot if we take off this population pressure,
00:54:08 ►
then there will be breathing time to implement the other solutions that you’re talking about,
00:54:14 ►
a solar economy, a hydrogen economy run on hydrogen split from seawater.
00:54:21 ►
There are a number of these kinds of things.
00:54:24 ►
And also we have to correct the gaseous
00:54:27 ►
imbalance of the atmosphere. This billion people that I’m talking about will be kept
00:54:32 ►
fully employed as combination archaeologists and waste cleanup artists because there will
00:54:41 ►
be centuries of detoxifying and cleaning up the earth to be done.
00:54:46 ►
Well, I think what you’re skirting around here is the possibility
00:54:50 ►
that the genetic plan has a whole other scenario going,
00:54:57 ►
and that we’re actually agents of a grander plan that’s being acted through us.
00:55:05 ►
And that’s where the theme of leaving the planet comes around again and again.
00:55:10 ►
Like Tim Leary talks about often,
00:55:13 ►
the plan of the gene is to fill up niches with new species
00:55:20 ►
and then the pressure generated by overcrowding
00:55:26 ►
species and then generate and then the pressure generated by overcrowding spawns the the creative intelligent leap to the next whatever the next frontier is and that as a human species we’ve
00:55:32 ►
been filling up the ecological niche of basically the planet’s surface really because we’re so
00:55:37 ►
adaptable well see the problem with that from my point of view is that, and the problem with all these forced evolution scenarios,
00:55:45 ►
is they have no mercy on the individual.
00:55:50 ►
I mean, in this nice phrase, filling up the niche, what are we talking about?
00:55:55 ►
10 billion people? 20 billion people?
00:55:57 ►
How hellish does it have to get on this planet before governments dedicate every penny they’ve got to building spaceships to escape.
00:56:07 ►
I mean, it could get that bad, but I would prefer not to be crisis-driven, you know,
00:56:14 ►
not to always be moving to the next phase because the bridge behind us is on fire.
00:56:20 ►
I think in credence to the fact that there’s an underlying, possibly an underlying scenario that we have to come make an agreement with.
00:56:27 ►
I think ultimately we’ll be a space-faring species, but I think we have to prove our worthiness for that.
00:56:37 ►
And the way you prove your worthiness is by not wrecking your home planet.
00:56:42 ►
You can’t join the galactic club if you wreck your home planet.
00:56:48 ►
They withdraw your membership applications.
00:56:52 ►
So, in order to save our planet, we’re going to have to become excellent planners,
00:57:01 ►
able to coordinate diverse points of view, able to honor diverse points of view.
00:57:09 ►
All the things we haven’t yet learned to do.
00:57:11 ►
And then, when we’ve balanced our accounts on this planet, we’ll be able to go out into the universe.
00:57:19 ►
I really wouldn’t want us to go any other way i mean i don’t like the scum to the stars scenario that you know we
00:57:26 ►
will pillage rape and burn our way to our tourists the same way we did to fort laramie or something
00:57:32 ►
i i don’t like that i think that we we have to pass certain tests before we can enter the galactic club. Yeah, there is also, you know, there is a realm of art.
00:57:46 ►
I mean, we will, through virtual reality and things like that,
00:57:51 ►
we want to both save the Earth
00:57:54 ►
and live in this titanic dimension
00:57:59 ►
where our engineering dreams can be unfolded against black space.
00:58:04 ►
And it’s the tension between these two things,
00:58:06 ►
the garden planet we come from
00:58:08 ►
and the truly titanic dreams
00:58:12 ►
that are being dreamed even now, you know.
00:58:15 ►
I mean, of ships the size of Manitoba
00:58:18 ►
that would carry a billion people to the stars,
00:58:21 ►
stuff like that.
00:58:23 ►
I mean, it isn’t here now,
00:58:24 ►
but on the other hand
00:58:26 ►
nothing that is here now was here even a hundred years ago
00:58:31 ►
well see there was a there you get a fair amount of agreement when you talk about saving the world
00:58:39 ►
and you talk about what we should stop. We should stop population, stop pollution, stop nuclear
00:58:47 ►
proliferation. Where it gets tricky is when you move into the area of what could be done,
00:58:54 ►
not turning switches off, but turning switches on. And then it becomes really complicated
00:59:01 ►
to know exactly what to do. For instance, you instance, there’s a CO2 debt in the atmosphere
00:59:09 ►
that is the accumulation of several centuries of fairly intense industrial activity.
00:59:15 ►
Well, recently it’s been proposed that for cheap, for like $25 million,
00:59:29 ►
cheap for like 25 million dollars the cost of a bad movie you could uh you could divert iron ore tankers from the great lakes uh to the south pacific and pelletize hematite ore and dump it
00:59:39 ►
into the sea in the south atlantic to create a temporary algal bloom
00:59:45 ►
that would, the theory is
00:59:48 ►
this huge algal bloom would take place
00:59:51 ►
there would be a massive release of oxygen
00:59:54 ►
into the atmosphere
00:59:55 ►
and then the algal bloom would consume the hematite
00:59:59 ►
and the algae would die
01:00:01 ►
and there would be a net gain of 3% oxygen
01:00:04 ►
in the planetary atmosphere.
01:00:11 ►
This is big stuff we’re talking, you know, how right or wrong can you be?
01:00:16 ►
Is this the kind of fiddling we should be getting into?
01:00:20 ►
And then the answer is, well, it depends on how bad you think things are.
01:00:24 ►
Obviously, we’re not going to stand by and do nothing
01:00:26 ►
while the planet burns up
01:00:28 ►
and there are other plans like this
01:00:31 ►
there are plans to aerosol spray
01:00:35 ►
powdered lime into the atmosphere
01:00:38 ►
to restore the acid imbalance
01:00:42 ►
in lakes
01:00:43 ►
and they’re talking about doing this on a scale of the northern hemisphere.
01:00:48 ►
You know, millions of tons of lime dust dropped at high altitude
01:00:52 ►
and then allowed to aerosol disperse.
01:00:55 ►
But, you know, they’re afraid that there might be a return of sunlight to space
01:01:01 ►
that would cause a climatological depression.
01:01:04 ►
So when you’re able to make
01:01:05 ►
big corrective changes
01:01:07 ►
you’re able to make big boo-boos
01:01:10 ►
and these
01:01:11 ►
are vast multinational
01:01:14 ►
undertakings which impact
01:01:15 ►
every country and population
01:01:17 ►
on the planet so you know what kind
01:01:20 ►
of administrative machinery
01:01:21 ►
is to be put in place to deal
01:01:24 ►
with this kind of thing.
01:01:25 ►
Well, these are all challenges to human organization and to mind.
01:01:31 ►
And because we’re going to have to design from the ground up, redesign an entire global
01:01:39 ►
system, I think psychedelics as a catalyst to the design process should have an obvious role
01:01:49 ►
i mean we really we have an opportunity to remake the world almost from scratch if we will but use
01:01:58 ►
the tools that we have to do it the tools that allow us to reach people, to educate people, the computer
01:02:08 ►
power that we have to simulate various solutions before we commit to them.
01:02:14 ►
The future is a future of planning.
01:02:17 ►
The mushroom said to me once, very emphatically, it said, if you don’t have a plan you become part of somebody else’s plan
01:02:27 ►
or the implication is some other plan
01:02:31 ►
and we see that happening
01:02:32 ►
it is easier to move around
01:02:36 ►
than you think
01:02:37 ►
this is both a cause for cynicism and hope
01:02:41 ►
as an example of this
01:02:43 ►
I had a funny thing happen
01:02:45 ►
when I was coming down here.
01:02:47 ►
I don’t own a TV.
01:02:48 ►
I own TVs, but I don’t own antennas.
01:02:51 ►
I watch tape, but I never watch broadcast TV,
01:02:54 ►
so I don’t know anything about it.
01:02:55 ►
So I’m reading the entertainment page of the paper,
01:02:58 ►
and it says that Twin Peaks is canceled,
01:03:04 ►
and I’m puzzled
01:03:06 ►
isn’t this the most phenomenally successful
01:03:09 ►
television program in history
01:03:11 ►
isn’t this the show which mobilized hundreds of millions of people
01:03:15 ►
so they had to be home in time to see it
01:03:18 ►
night after night
01:03:19 ►
and I read through this thing
01:03:21 ►
it’s in the business section
01:03:23 ►
and I read through this and it says it’s cancelled, it’s finished.
01:03:31 ►
The public relations ploy of focusing audience attention
01:03:36 ►
on the question of who killed Laura Palmer completely backfired.
01:03:41 ►
The whole thing is a burnt-out case.
01:03:44 ►
It wasn’t the most creative
01:03:45 ►
television show in history
01:03:47 ►
it was junk
01:03:48 ►
a lot of money was spent to make people think
01:03:51 ►
it’s wonderful and now the money
01:03:53 ►
has stopped being spent and
01:03:54 ►
it ain’t wonderful anymore
01:03:56 ►
this is an example of the power
01:03:59 ►
of public relations
01:04:00 ►
that’s all
01:04:02 ►
if you will give me
01:04:03 ►
10 million dollars we can sell this idea to enough people
01:04:11 ►
to make an impact on the history of the planet. You could sell any idea for $10 million. Media
01:04:19 ►
costs money. Ideas are driven by the same market economy that drives everything else. I mean,
01:04:27 ►
it’s an obscene fact, but no idea is sold without hype because the arena of the sale of ideas
01:04:36 ►
is an arena of hype. I mean, it’s all packaging and that sort of thing. This is a very cynical thing. I realized this watching the peace demonstrations
01:04:48 ►
after the war first broke out,
01:04:51 ►
because I come out of that.
01:04:52 ►
I was in the Vietnam Day Committee
01:04:54 ►
and all that stuff back in Berkeley.
01:04:56 ►
So then here’s the CNN broadcast of the peace demonstration.
01:05:01 ►
And here’s some guy, his Adam’s apple,
01:05:04 ►
moving four inches up and down as he speaks screaming
01:05:09 ►
what do you want peace when do you want it no it’s just you know it’s the total turnoff image
01:05:17 ►
they must have been hired by the government to do this don’t they can’t they get some decent public relations don’t they understand
01:05:26 ►
public relations it’s how you are doing it well then it’s insidious then you have agent provocateurs
01:05:33 ►
essentially which was always the problem in the 60s we looked so bad because the cops always led us
01:05:40 ►
well the way money is spent in this country is really obscene.
01:05:48 ►
There was a breakdown of weapons in the paper about a week ago
01:05:52 ►
in an effort so that the ordinary person in the street
01:05:56 ►
could understand what’s going on.
01:05:58 ►
The stealth fighter, is it the F-18?
01:06:04 ►
The F-18A, sitting there on the runway costs $110 million. You know what
01:06:12 ►
you can buy if you have $110 million on the civilian market? You can buy the Trump princess.
01:06:19 ►
That’s what the Trump princess costs. Well, now we think of Trump as just the exemplar of obscene wealth.
01:06:29 ►
I mean, this guy, what a pig, all this money.
01:06:33 ►
All of his money buys him one F-18A.
01:06:39 ►
We build these things by the dozens,
01:06:42 ►
dream of selling them by the hundreds.
01:06:44 ►
So, you know, is Donald Trump a pig? What about their levels and levels? build these things by the dozens, dream of selling them by the hundreds.
01:06:46 ►
So, you know, is Donald Trump a pig? What about
01:06:48 ►
their levels and levels? Some people
01:06:50 ►
make an easy target.
01:06:52 ►
The amount of money being
01:06:54 ►
spent on armament, as opposed to the
01:06:56 ►
amount of money being spent on
01:06:57 ►
anything else, the cure of disease,
01:07:00 ►
housing, education,
01:07:02 ►
you name it, is
01:07:04 ►
totally schizophrenically skewed
01:07:06 ►
but see I think that ideas are permeable
01:07:12 ►
they do leak out
01:07:15 ►
all you have to do is articulate them
01:07:17 ►
that’s why I don’t want to lead a particular crusade
01:07:21 ►
I don’t want to found the committee for one woman
01:07:24 ►
one child, because I
01:07:26 ►
figure like my position is just to lay this stuff out there. And then if it’s heard, that’s how it
01:07:34 ►
tests. I mean, there is an environment of natural selection for ideas as well. And it’s just a
01:07:43 ►
matter of putting these things out there. I had never heard,
01:07:47 ►
it’s like a suppressed statistic, I had never heard the statistic about an American child using
01:07:55 ►
600 to 800 times the resources of an Indian child. I mean, they do not tell you that, because that’s
01:08:02 ►
all you need to know to figure out to reach a whole bunch of conclusions
01:08:06 ►
just on your little old own without anybody leading you by the nose so that that fact is
01:08:14 ►
kept in abeyance and we’re told oh if only all these little brown people would stop breeding
01:08:19 ►
like flies then we they’re not the problem and to break out of it is indeed a challenge,
01:08:28 ►
and it does take unity, and that’s a challenge. Well, and then if you’re lazy, you just wait,
01:08:34 ►
and it also has internal contradictions which will destroy it. If you’re the patient type,
01:08:42 ►
you can just wait for the internal contradictions to destroy it.
01:08:45 ►
The problem is now we seem to be up against a kind of a planetary deadline.
01:08:50 ►
We don’t have centuries to let these things work out.
01:08:55 ►
So a certain urgency creeps in.
01:09:00 ►
This is why anything which catalyzes consciousness,
01:09:04 ►
this is why anything which catalyzes consciousness,
01:09:08 ►
anything which accelerates the production of ideas in the body politic has to be taken seriously.
01:09:13 ►
And when you look back at the 1960s,
01:09:15 ►
that’s what characterized that decade
01:09:18 ►
was a whole bunch of ideas came out with the psychedelics,
01:09:24 ►
and the psychedelics were repressed and pushed off stage
01:09:28 ►
but the ideas remained to shape our society i mean uh feminism uh racial tolerance uh the idea of
01:09:42 ►
feeling concern for people far removed from you in space and time
01:09:47 ►
the notion of brotherhood basically of global community
01:09:52 ►
all that began then and has bedeviled them ever since
01:09:58 ►
and that’s the real legacy of that time
01:10:01 ►
now it just has to be refocused.
01:10:07 ►
The problems are coming home to roost.
01:10:11 ►
It’s not that abstract anymore.
01:10:13 ►
I mean, this convulsion over petroleum
01:10:15 ►
is going to haunt us for years.
01:10:19 ►
And I think that even in the government chancelleries
01:10:25 ►
and corporate boardrooms of this world,
01:10:28 ►
there’s a fair amount of alarm.
01:10:30 ►
There’s a fair sense that it’s out of control.
01:10:33 ►
People are willing to talk Turkey
01:10:35 ►
within their small private circles.
01:10:39 ►
Who is in charge?
01:10:42 ►
Where are we pointing and where do we want to go?
01:10:45 ►
And it’s a complicated situation.
01:10:48 ►
Are the corporate multinationals black hats, white hats, gray hats, or all of the above?
01:10:55 ►
What are we doing with the nation state?
01:10:58 ►
Is it on its way out?
01:11:04 ►
It’s a tremendous moment
01:11:06 ►
for opportunity
01:11:07 ►
and there will be more chaos
01:11:10 ►
this is just the beginning
01:11:12 ►
the whole rest of this century
01:11:14 ►
is about the surfacing
01:11:17 ►
of the contradictions
01:11:18 ►
in the renaissance structure
01:11:21 ►
of society that we’ve been
01:11:22 ►
working out
01:11:23 ►
it won’t function for an electronic population of six or seven billion people.
01:11:29 ►
And we’re meeting this challenge moment by moment.
01:11:34 ►
You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon, where people are changing their lives one
01:11:39 ►
thought at a time.
01:11:41 ►
As Terence just said, this convulsion over petroleum is going to haunt us for years.
01:11:48 ►
However, he then went on to say, but we’re meeting this challenge moment by moment.
01:11:54 ►
Now, while I wasn’t very clear in my introduction to this talk,
01:11:57 ►
what I hope today’s program will be leading us to is a further discussion of some of the topics that were touched on by Terrence just now.
01:12:05 ►
You see, while I truly believe that we have at least another century with the
01:12:10 ►
owners of the American empire continuing to have their way with the world, I also believe that
01:12:16 ►
deep inside this troubled world there are ways for us locals to not only survive the empire but
01:12:22 ►
to actually thrive while Rome burns all around us.
01:12:27 ►
Now, something that Terence also said was,
01:12:30 ►
as long as we can meet like this and talk, we can win.
01:12:34 ►
And he said that in conjunction with his comments about who is actually in charge
01:12:38 ►
and is there anything that we can do about our situation.
01:12:42 ►
Well, what we can do, at least for the time being,
01:12:46 ►
is to get together in all kinds of different ways and talk.
01:12:49 ►
During the course of this year,
01:12:51 ►
I hope to be able to Skype into several festivals
01:12:54 ►
and talk with the participants there
01:12:56 ►
about ways in which we can thrive
01:12:58 ►
while the empire washes over us locals.
01:13:01 ►
And as I’ve said before,
01:13:02 ►
I’d be happy to Skype into your local meetings as well. What is important, I believe, Thank you. Over on our forums, I’ve begun a thread titled, The Empire is Falling Apart.
01:13:25 ►
And already there have been eight or ten different people who have begun the conversation.
01:13:31 ►
Soon I’ll be adding a few subsections to this thread, and I hope that we’ll be able to figure out a few ways to help us all survive and to actually thrive during the dark times that we seem to have entered.
01:13:43 ►
actually thrive during the dark times that we seem to have entered.
01:13:50 ►
And this isn’t all about alternative currency, non-corporate sources of work, and alternative living arrangements.
01:13:55 ►
I hope that we can also come up with new ways to have fun-filled days and nights,
01:14:01 ►
and close to home, without first becoming the target of the screwheads who own this country.
01:14:04 ►
So who’s in charge? Well, we are. And I think that there are
01:14:06 ►
a lot of positive things that we can be doing other than buying into the widespread fear that
01:14:11 ►
our governments are creating so as to tighten their grip on we the people. Let’s face it,
01:14:17 ►
if there is one single group of people who already know how to live in a tightly screwed
01:14:22 ►
down police state, it’s the psychedelic community.
01:14:26 ►
We’ve been living within our own set of rules ever since this insane war on drugs first began.
01:14:31 ►
So if you get a chance, why don’t you come over to the forums and add your two cents to the
01:14:36 ►
conversation. Now I’d be remiss, I think, after a lecture by Terrence in which he promoted his one woman, one child idea,
01:14:45 ►
if I didn’t mention a woman who, to me, is a true hero.
01:14:49 ►
Now, if you’re new to the salon, then I should let you know what I’ve said on several occasions in the past.
01:14:55 ►
One of the main reasons that I’m doing these podcasts is to leave a little bit of myself online
01:15:01 ►
where my grandchildren can find it, should they ever want to know a little
01:15:05 ►
about one of their ancestors.
01:15:06 ►
So this is just a personal note to them.
01:15:09 ►
The woman that I’m talking about is named Rindy, and she is the real Rindy who I fictionalized
01:15:15 ►
in the Genesis generation.
01:15:17 ►
I won’t go into her full story, but she had an exceptionally difficult life before we
01:15:22 ►
met.
01:15:23 ►
However, during the time when her daughter was in middle school and high school,
01:15:26 ►
I lived with her and her daughter,
01:15:28 ►
and so I came to understand how unbelievably difficult it is to be a single mother.
01:15:34 ►
It was Rindy, by the way, who broke me out of my conservative shell
01:15:38 ►
and turned me into the radical that I am today.
01:15:41 ►
We produced over a hundred television programs together,
01:15:44 ►
and some of the series
01:15:45 ►
were titled Big Brother’s Latest Lies, Freedom Now, and Reality Check. She also got me involved
01:15:52 ►
in the Vietnam Prisoner of War movement, and we protested together up and down the East
01:15:57 ►
Coast. Without all that I learned from Rindy about being tough and standing up for what you believe in, I would probably still
01:16:06 ►
be a mild-mannered cubicle worker. And she led by example, the example that only a single mother can
01:16:13 ►
provide sometimes. Rindy and I haven’t seen one another for many years now, and we are both
01:16:19 ►
grandparents now. But we stay in touch, and I’m very pleased to say that she is still the shining star
01:16:25 ►
who cracked my conservative shell and had an awful lot to do with making me the person I am today.
01:16:32 ►
Now, as we part, I want to call to mind a man who died the other day and who is going to be
01:16:39 ►
missed by millions. I’m talking, of course, about David Bowie. Over the years, his music and his characters have played a part in many of our lives.
01:16:49 ►
Now, back in the early 1970s, when I was practicing law in Houston, Texas,
01:16:53 ►
one of the songs that was frequently played at our weekend Navy Reserve meetings
01:16:58 ►
was Ground Control to Major Tom.
01:17:02 ►
Now, what seems really funny to me now is that we were so square and straight back
01:17:08 ►
then that we thought the song was about a real astronaut. Tripping wasn’t even in our vocabulary
01:17:14 ►
back then in that straight-laced place called Houston, Texas. At the time, I was living in a
01:17:20 ►
small town that was only 10 miles from the Houston Space Center, and one of the officers
01:17:25 ►
in our reserve unit was actually the person in charge of ground communications for the whole
01:17:30 ►
space program. And in our eyes, he was ground control. Now, fast forward about 15 years or so
01:17:38 ►
to the time when I was living in Dallas and selling ecstasy and had at long last begun
01:17:43 ►
using psychedelics. Needless to say,
01:17:46 ►
the song took on an entirely new meaning for me, as it has for countless psychonauts. So,
01:17:53 ►
I thought that in the memory of David Bowie today, we should let Major Tom end this podcast.
01:18:00 ►
And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space. Be careful out there, my friends.
01:18:10 ►
Ground control to Major Tom.
01:18:18 ►
Ground control to Major Tom.
01:18:31 ►
Take your protein pills and put your helmet on. Ground control to Major Tom. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
01:18:50 ►
Liftoff. This is Ground Control
01:19:10 ►
It’s a major job
01:19:12 ►
You’ve really made me great
01:19:17 ►
And the papers want to know
01:19:22 ►
Whose shirt you wear.
01:19:31 ►
Now it’s time to leave the capsule if you dare.
01:19:39 ►
This is Major Tom to ground control.
01:19:43 ►
I’m stepping through the door And I’m floating in the most peculiar way
01:19:51 ►
And the stars look very different today
01:19:59 ►
For here am I sitting in a tin can
01:20:08 ►
Far above the world
01:20:16 ►
Planet Earth is blue
01:20:20 ►
And there’s nothing I can do Though I’m past 100,000 miles
01:21:01 ►
I’m feeling very still.
01:21:06 ►
And I think my spaceship knows which way to go.
01:21:14 ►
So my wife, I love her very much.
01:21:19 ►
She knows.
01:21:23 ►
Ground control to Major Tom
01:21:26 ►
Your circuit’s dead
01:21:28 ►
There’s something wrong
01:21:30 ►
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
01:21:34 ►
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
01:21:37 ►
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
01:21:42 ►
Can you hear
01:21:44 ►
Am I floating
01:21:46 ►
Am I sinking
01:21:48 ►
On above the moon
01:21:55 ►
Planet Earth is full
01:22:00 ►
And there’s nothing I can do Thank you.