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007 - Art, Love, Family, and Psychedelics (Part 1)

Jun 10, 2005, 54 min read

Program Notes

Guest speaker: Zena, Allyson, & Alex Grey

AlexGreyFamily-150.jpg

A talk by Alex, Allyson, and Zena Grey at Burning Man 2003.

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008 - Art, Love, Family, and Psychedelics (Part 2)

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Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Three-dimensional, transforming, musical, linguistic objects.

00:00:10 ►

Elm shells. Greetings from cyberdelic space.

00:00:37 ►

I’m Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:41 ►

We’ve got a really great program for you today.

00:00:43 ►

We’ve got a really great program for you today. It’s actually part of the first series of Palenque Norte lectures

00:00:47 ►

that were given at Burning Man in the year 2003.

00:00:51 ►

As any of you who have been to the Playa know,

00:00:54 ►

there’s a lot of challenges in producing anything on the Playa.

00:00:58 ►

Actually, there’s a lot of challenges just in surviving.

00:01:01 ►

Particularly, it was your first year there,

00:01:03 ►

which actually it was for the Gray family.

00:01:08 ►

And the talk that we’re presenting today, as you already know, is from Zena, Allison, and Alex Gray.

00:01:14 ►

It came on Saturday, the day of the burn, and it came at the wonderful hour of noon.

00:01:21 ►

Now, who the idiot was that scheduled Alex gray and family to speak

00:01:27 ►

at noon in the desert on the playa and Burning Man on the day of the burn

00:01:30 ►

thought I’d have his head examined and the truth is I decided never to do

00:01:36 ►

something that stupid again but anyhow it was by far the biggest crowd we ever

00:01:42 ►

had for one of our lectures it It was a real overflow crowd.

00:01:46 ►

We counted, and there were close to 500 people there.

00:01:51 ►

And it was just amazing.

00:01:53 ►

Not inside the pod, of course.

00:01:54 ►

It was packed to the bills.

00:01:56 ►

And to the 500 or so that were able to hear it live in person there,

00:02:02 ►

there were several thousand who caught it on K-Pod radio

00:02:05 ►

that we were broadcasting in Black Rock City at the time.

00:02:09 ►

So if you go to our website at matrixmasters.com,

00:02:12 ►

there’s actually a link on the front page with Alex Gray’s name on it.

00:02:15 ►

It’ll take you right to a page where there’s some pictures of this particular event.

00:02:19 ►

You can kind of see what it looked like when the recordings were made.

00:02:24 ►

Our particular challenge at Planque Norte was the quality of the recording that day.

00:02:29 ►

Our direct feed from the board failed, and the handheld MP3 mic that was being passed around got switched off.

00:02:37 ►

And so most of this talk was captured on my cassette tape recorder that I just put on the DJ stand there.

00:02:44 ►

And so it’s kind of a recording of what it sounded like inside the pod.

00:02:48 ►

And, you know, it’s not the greatest quality recording at all,

00:02:52 ►

but at least it did get saved.

00:02:54 ►

And, you know, while I’d like to have a much clearer recording,

00:02:58 ►

this will at least give you a better feeling of what it was like that day on the playa.

00:03:03 ►

All in all, the Graves talk lasted about an hour and a half,

00:03:09 ►

and so we can’t put it all into one podcast here.

00:03:12 ►

The file would just get too immense,

00:03:14 ►

and so we’re breaking it into two parts, part one and part two.

00:03:18 ►

This is obviously part one,

00:03:20 ►

and part two we’re going to have up on the web at the same time we post this,

00:03:23 ►

so you won’t have to wait for the Psychedelic Salon number eight.

00:03:28 ►

Before we introduce the talk, by the way,

00:03:31 ►

I want to thank my friends Jacques Cordell and Wells of Chateau Hayouk

00:03:35 ►

for letting us use a cut from their CD, which is entitled Nature Loves Courage.

00:03:42 ►

Boy, that’s a great title, by the way, guys.

00:03:44 ►

I love it. Nature Loves Courage. Boy, that’s a great title, by the way, guys. I love it. Nature Loves Courage.

00:03:47 ►

As I mentioned in the beginning,

00:03:49 ►

our recording quality could be better,

00:03:51 ►

but the quality of the Graves presentation is just excellent.

00:03:55 ►

In fact, I really don’t know if there’s a better explanation

00:03:59 ►

of how to create a family life that’s in harmony

00:04:03 ►

with what Terence McKenna espoused

00:04:06 ►

in his philosophy of psychedelic society.

00:04:10 ►

And for those of you, by the way, who might still be living at home

00:04:13 ►

and have the feeling that your parents just don’t get it,

00:04:17 ►

you might want to give some thought to asking your parents to listen with you

00:04:21 ►

to the two-part talks of the Gray family.

00:04:27 ►

And I seriously doubt if you’ll find a more rational discussion about the use of our sacred

00:04:33 ►

medicines in the context of a well-grounded and very highly creative family life.

00:04:39 ►

So anyhow, that’s something I think you ought to think about.

00:04:43 ►

It’d be probably a good move.

00:04:45 ►

You might be surprised at how open and rational some parents can be.

00:04:50 ►

Well, some parents.

00:04:52 ►

At least in the blue states, huh?

00:04:54 ►

So, let’s take a listen now to Zena, Allison, and Alex Gray

00:05:00 ►

talk about heart, love, family and psychedelics.

00:05:09 ►

I get to

00:05:11 ►

say hello and be the first to say hello.

00:05:14 ►

And I want

00:05:16 ►

to acknowledge you for coming

00:05:17 ►

in this hot 12 o’clock.

00:05:20 ►

I didn’t think that anybody would be up by now.

00:05:22 ►

So we’re amazed

00:05:24 ►

at the crowd. We’re very, very touched.

00:05:26 ►

Thank you so much for being here for our talk.

00:05:29 ►

I’m Allison Gray, and you know Alex.

00:05:32 ►

And I just wanted to introduce Dina Gray, who usually doesn’t sit up with us,

00:05:36 ►

but we invited her to do that because of our topic,

00:05:40 ►

which is art, love, family, and psychedelics.

00:05:42 ►

And because of that topic, Dina is very much a part of our art, love, family, and psychedelics. And because of that topic, Lita is very much a part of our art, love, family, and psychedelics

00:05:49 ►

sort of talk or thoughts on those subjects.

00:05:53 ►

And so I invited her, if she has any comments, to just chime in.

00:05:58 ►

And, of course, we’re going to try to keep it somewhat brief

00:06:01 ►

and keep our comments on those four subjects,

00:06:04 ►

that’s art, love, family, and psychedelics, somewhat brief, keep our comments on those four subjects, that’s art, love,

00:06:05 ►

family, psychedelics, somewhat brief, and then let you ask questions, and of course

00:06:09 ►

you can also address your questions to Zena. So, without further ado, I’ll let Alex begin

00:06:15 ►

with a brief comment on art. and thank you Lorenzo for that introduction and just being here at Burning Man is it’s just such of creative energy that is completely sort of unauthorized by the art sort of establishment.

00:06:54 ►

And this is, to me, the most inspiring gathering on the planet because it gives us hope

00:07:08 ►

that we’re not living only under the boot,

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but that our creative vision

00:07:20 ►

is really what’s supreme.

00:07:24 ►

When we’re so excited to be able to come to such an inhospitable environment

00:07:30 ►

and make it a heaven,

00:07:35 ►

it’s truly a transformative gift that we give ourselves to be here and be participants.

00:07:44 ►

When we’re here, we’re all artists,

00:07:46 ►

and we can recognize and appreciate the greatness of the efforts

00:07:50 ►

that have gone into all these striking and inspiring structures.

00:07:57 ►

So we’re just so thrilled to be here sharing this time with you.

00:08:03 ►

I’m thrilled to be here sharing this time with you.

00:08:19 ►

Psychedelics have been, I’d say, one of the most important catalysts for understanding our multi-dimensional reality that Allison and I have had the good fortune to encounter.

00:08:26 ►

It happened to be that we met each other while tripping,

00:08:32 ►

and that kind of solidified our relationship.

00:08:37 ►

We stayed together.

00:08:38 ►

It’s been our kind of cosmic glue for the last 27 years. And so that coincidence of what I like to think of as angels’ tears,

00:08:55 ►

tears cried in compassion through the molecular hijinks in Dr. Hoffman’s lab many years ago,

00:09:04 ►

hijinks in Dr. Hoffman’s lab many years ago was that kind of micrograms of opening

00:09:13 ►

that allowed us to recognize each other

00:09:17 ►

as this force of God

00:09:24 ►

that we wanted to bring into our lives together

00:09:29 ►

and share that.

00:09:30 ►

So since psychedelics has given us

00:09:34 ►

this experience of pure, infinite awareness,

00:09:39 ►

infinite love

00:09:40 ►

that forms the basis of our relationship,

00:09:44 ►

it also informs all these other subjects of art

00:09:47 ►

and love, our family,

00:09:52 ►

and all the things we want to talk about today.

00:09:55 ►

So in the subject of art,

00:09:58 ►

regarding the subject of art,

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and it’s such an appropriate subject given the expressions that are all going

00:10:10 ►

on here from from what we wear to what we listen to to what we are observing

00:10:16 ►

what we’re driving in what we’re writing on all of these have been subject to the

00:10:22 ►

scrutiny of our creative awareness.

00:10:33 ►

And so one of the things, though, as artists that Allison and I talk about and wonder about is what is the most important thing to make art about?

00:10:37 ►

Because even for abstract painters like Barnett Newman, this was his question. And for him, it was the overriding

00:10:48 ►

question of what an artist has to answer for themselves, is what is my subject? And so

00:10:57 ►

I think that many of us have encountered what that subject is through our various visions and things. It certainly

00:11:06 ►

was that way with Allison and I. The psychedelics opened us up to a realm of vision and specific

00:11:15 ►

visionary experiences that then we’ve attempted to translate into our art. I think that the Burning Man experience

00:11:27 ►

here is,

00:11:29 ►

I can’t speak for many of the artists

00:11:31 ►

because I don’t know them, but it certainly

00:11:33 ►

to me is

00:11:35 ►

an externalized

00:11:38 ►

hallucination

00:11:39 ►

that is

00:11:41 ►

like looking at a

00:11:43 ►

3D Dr. Seuss kind of world.

00:11:48 ►

You know, we’re all in Whoville here.

00:11:52 ►

And so…

00:11:54 ►

Yeah.

00:11:56 ►

We hear you.

00:11:59 ►

We’re all participants in this kind of extraordinary externalization of the soul,

00:12:09 ►

which was really what Terence was harping on for us, you know,

00:12:14 ►

when he was saying the pedal to the metal in the art direction,

00:12:18 ►

was to find this way to externalize the DMT realms,

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find this way to externalize the DMT realms,

00:12:30 ►

all the realms that are inherent to our creative imagination and have been visited by all the various cultures throughout the millennia.

00:12:36 ►

We can look at the Islamic architecture

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and the temple structures from all over the world.

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And these are also keynotes and reference points

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that are incorporated into the beautiful

00:12:51 ►

and outrageously grand structures

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that David Best and the Burning Man pyramid

00:13:00 ►

and all these magnificent structures that are so inspiring.

00:13:03 ►

They’re taken, it seems, directly from these inner worlds.

00:13:09 ►

So, however, do you want to start to say some things here?

00:13:13 ►

Allison, yeah.

00:13:15 ►

Well, I’m just going to say briefly that, you know,

00:13:19 ►

in considering being an artist,

00:13:22 ►

I think that there are three things,

00:13:25 ►

or at least the three that come to my mind right now, to be considered.

00:13:29 ►

Three questions, really.

00:13:30 ►

One is what to make art about, which is what Alice is just talking about.

00:13:33 ►

And we determined some time ago, while journeying on LSD,

00:13:40 ►

that the thing to make art about would be the most important thing.

00:13:45 ►

I mean, no one can tell you what that is,

00:13:48 ►

but for us, it was our experience of the infinite oneness and unity of all beings and things.

00:13:57 ►

We could go on and on poetically describing that,

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but that’s what poets are for, is to describe that.

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And so what to make art about, that’s an important are for, is to describe that. So what to make art about.

00:14:05 ►

That’s an important consideration for every artist,

00:14:08 ►

and we recommend making it about the most important thing.

00:14:11 ►

That’s why we’re visionaries.

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That’s why visionary artists make art,

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because they want to make the art about the visions that are the most important to them.

00:14:19 ►

So you have to look inside and see what’s the most important thing,

00:14:23 ►

and express it, and try to express it

00:14:27 ►

the best way you can so that you’re communicating that most important thing to the most people.

00:14:32 ►

You know, a lot of times we teach and we see people who will come to us with their art

00:14:35 ►

and they’ll tell us, you know, what it’s supposed to say or what the vision was, but

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you don’t get that from their vision. That’s the problem. So that’s the… But we all…

00:14:45 ►

Being an artist is a problem,

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and it’s what you have to overcome,

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is how to communicate that most important thing

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in the most communicative way.

00:14:54 ►

So that’s the first question.

00:14:55 ►

The second question is,

00:14:58 ►

how do I do it physically, time and money?

00:15:03 ►

It’s like, how do I get the time and the money to do the things to fulfill my vision?

00:15:08 ►

So that’s your second problem.

00:15:10 ►

These are all problems.

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I’m not going to tell you how to answer them.

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I’m just going to tell you what they are.

00:15:15 ►

Time and money.

00:15:16 ►

And we’re always advising people to carve out a few hours, if not more.

00:15:22 ►

Some of us make art all the time, or we focus our life on our art. But even if you don’t, even if you work in a cub hours, if not more. Some of us make art all the time, or we focus our life on our art.

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But even if you don’t,

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even if you work in a cubicle,

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which we hope some of you do,

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but even if you do,

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you know, to come home

00:15:33 ►

and to carve out a few hours a day

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for your creative outlet

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could mean so much to your life,

00:15:40 ►

could be so enriching to us.

00:15:41 ►

What would it be?

00:15:42 ►

What would it be if you did that? I

00:15:45 ►

mean, some of us already do that, but if you don’t do that, what happens to you? You know,

00:15:50 ►

how are you dried out inside when you don’t find the time and the money? And the money,

00:15:54 ►

of course, you know, we can spend great deals of money, we can spend very little money.

00:15:58 ►

Our materials can be very inexpensive, can be found objects. You know, we’ve all seen

00:16:03 ►

Andy Gold’s work, you know, he goes out in the woods,

00:16:06 ►

he sticks and leaves,

00:16:08 ►

or, you know, there’s people who build huge structures.

00:16:10 ►

So we have to, you know, adapt to that.

00:16:12 ►

But this is the concern.

00:16:14 ►

The second concern, making time and money.

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The third concern that I came to,

00:16:18 ►

that we were thinking about, that we came up with,

00:16:20 ►

is what can art do?

00:16:22 ►

You know, why be an artist?

00:16:24 ►

Why even, you know, and I think, and I’m just

00:16:28 ►

going to talk about that. I think what I was just saying for one thing, the fulfillment

00:16:35 ►

that you’ll get from being an artist. What art can do. Well, I think that, for one thing, it does represent that force of cosmic creativity

00:16:52 ►

that if we’re in a universe, we’re in a cosmos that is constantly undergoing creation, destruction,

00:17:02 ►

creation, destruction,

00:17:03 ►

recreation.

00:17:06 ►

And on such a scale,

00:17:07 ►

such an infinite scale in all the galaxies and all the

00:17:10 ►

various planets and who knows

00:17:12 ►

what kind of life forms have emerged

00:17:14 ►

in these

00:17:15 ►

various physical

00:17:18 ►

worlds as well as all the

00:17:19 ►

multi-dimensional inner worlds

00:17:22 ►

and subtle worlds that we’ve visited.

00:17:24 ►

There’s an ongoing, just boundless field of awareness that’s generating news.

00:17:33 ►

And when we tap in, we get to a glimpse of these other realms and other dimensions

00:17:39 ►

that they’re informing us, they’re educating us.

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The universe is like a university that we come to learn something about.

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And so how do we express what we learn?

00:17:54 ►

How do we digest it?

00:17:55 ►

How do we integrate whatever knowledge we have in our lives?

00:17:59 ►

And to me, just the nature of the creative act and whether it’s

00:18:06 ►

building a website or

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writing a song or

00:18:10 ►

doing a

00:18:12 ►

dance, painting a picture,

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making a drawing, all of these

00:18:16 ►

things, making movies, films,

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all of these things are

00:18:20 ►

expressions of getting you

00:18:22 ►

in alignment with this

00:18:24 ►

creative force

00:18:26 ►

or this force of universal creativity that we’re all an expression of.

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We couldn’t be here unless the universe evolved exactly as it did.

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And so here we are, these jabbering collections of molecules here.

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And here, just for a brief time,

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this little package is just like whizzing through space and time.

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We’re soon to die and all that.

00:18:53 ►

But what does it all mean to you?

00:18:56 ►

And art, through the millennia, what survives?

00:19:01 ►

We go back and we look at the artworks of all

00:19:05 ►

the various cultures, and this is how we get a vibe of, my God, they were going through

00:19:10 ►

and dealing with the same kind of shit that we’re dealing with now, you know? This is

00:19:15 ►

a way of extending the human family and human consciousness, you know, in passing on the gift of appreciation of where you are,

00:19:28 ►

where you’ve been, where you are.

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Artwork can function like that.

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Certainly for the artist, there’s that function of just that kind of healing,

00:19:38 ►

getting the monster or getting the inspiration outside of yourself.

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So art’s a creative healing force for those who are engaged in it, but also those who

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are sensitively open to letting it in.

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If you’re receptive to great works of art, there is a kind of ego transcending moment

00:20:05 ►

where your mind merges with the source of the art.

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And the artists themselves,

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at the great moments of inspiration,

00:20:15 ►

is totally out of their mind as well.

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So what you have is a connection point,

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a kind of a mode, a portal,

00:20:21 ►

into that alternative moment or glimpse of liberation,

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or whatever space, maybe it’s a glimpse of hell,

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maybe whatever the glimpse is that brought the artist out of themselves

00:20:36 ►

and into the presence,

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then you too, through your sensitive viewing,

00:20:43 ►

can merge with that moment and likewise live that inspiration.

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So the sharing of inspiration is, I think, the greatest thing that art can do.

00:20:58 ►

It empowers any creative act that we want to take in our lives, to have come here and to have witnessed all the various arts

00:21:07 ►

continually evolving,

00:21:11 ►

and it is a way of you bringing back that energy into your life

00:21:16 ►

and whatever the hell you’re doing, you know,

00:21:18 ►

then, well, gee whiz,

00:21:24 ►

can I imagine making this drawing?

00:21:29 ►

Well, look at Black Rock City.

00:21:31 ►

My God, you know, of course.

00:21:33 ►

Give yourself the space to do it.

00:21:35 ►

Just try it, you know.

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And so most creative ideas seem outlandish and ridiculous to begin with.

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creative ideas seem outlandish and ridiculous to begin with.

00:21:50 ►

And so this should inspire one, I think, to take those steps. And God knows we need the enthusiasm and the hope

00:21:57 ►

that any of our creative efforts can add up to

00:22:02 ►

sustaining our

00:22:05 ►

planetary web of life

00:22:07 ►

or all the various kind of ideals

00:22:10 ►

creating a life

00:22:11 ►

of love and

00:22:13 ►

a community that is

00:22:15 ►

recognizing each other

00:22:18 ►

as expressions of the divine.

00:22:20 ►

These are sort of

00:22:22 ►

moments of

00:22:23 ►

inter-reflectivity

00:22:25 ►

that I like to think about as, you know,

00:22:28 ►

we’re all sacred mirrors of each other.

00:22:30 ►

That’s the whole point of thinking about sacred mirrors.

00:22:34 ►

And the artworks that we do can express that.

00:22:37 ►

So that’s…

00:22:39 ►

I’ve jabbered long enough here. Shabbat shalom. You know, really when we talk about love, we’re going to sort of touch on the part about relationships,

00:23:09 ►

like, you know, finding a relationship.

00:23:14 ►

Because people often ask us about our relationship.

00:23:17 ►

You know, we’ve been together for such a long time and we still find it interesting being together.

00:23:23 ►

And, you know, we really love each other.

00:23:25 ►

We’ve been devoted and committed, you know, for quite a while.

00:23:29 ►

And, of course, you know, we said that that was your best thing.

00:23:33 ►

That’s what you told us.

00:23:34 ►

It was the thing she did the best was love, which she’s very good at.

00:23:37 ►

And I think that’s true, too.

00:23:38 ►

But we’re really talking here about relationships.

00:23:41 ►

And in considering finding that person for yourself, you first have to

00:23:48 ►

find the right person. I mean, you know, that’s the hardest or easiest part, I’m not sure.

00:23:56 ►

But how do you find that right person? And how do you know that that person is the right

00:24:00 ►

person? That’s a book-long topic, and I won’t go into it entirely, but we’ll

00:24:05 ►

touch on a couple of points. And we often start by quoting our friends, Robbie and Judy

00:24:15 ►

Gass, who teach courses on such things. And they also are a couple that I’ve been seeing

00:24:20 ►

for a long time. And they said, choose good and stop choosing.

00:24:25 ►

This is the thing to remember.

00:24:28 ►

You know, choose good is sort of like the problem.

00:24:31 ►

You’ve got to choose good to begin with.

00:24:32 ►

And if you don’t know what love looks like, there’s a long list, you know, of things that

00:24:36 ►

love doesn’t look like, and you have to recognize those things.

00:24:39 ►

And you have to know what love does look like, what love looks like, you know, nurturing,

00:24:45 ►

And you have to know what love does look like, what love looks like, you know, nurturing, supporting,

00:24:52 ►

through all the various things that each person in a couple wants to do, not limiting,

00:24:58 ►

and just, you know, you have to determine what love looks like. That’s a long topic, but once you have chosen that right person, stop choosing.

00:25:05 ►

A lot of people choose that person, and then they keep looking, you know, and that doesn’t work.

00:25:14 ►

Once you do that, I’ll hear the black rocks.

00:25:18 ►

You know, that’s really up to every individual.

00:25:20 ►

Maybe some people here are still looking.

00:25:22 ►

I don’t know.

00:25:23 ►

But for us, that works.

00:25:26 ►

And for everybody, it works differently. So I’m not trying to say that ours is

00:25:28 ►

the only kind of relationship that a person can

00:25:30 ►

have. We know that people have open relationships

00:25:32 ►

and whatever works for you. But for us,

00:25:34 ►

what worked is to choose and stop choosing

00:25:36 ►

and choose good.

00:25:37 ►

Because I think we both felt like we had made

00:25:40 ►

a good choice.

00:25:41 ►

And one of the ways

00:25:43 ►

that we knew that we made a good choice, there’s a lot of aspects of making a good choice. And one of the ways that we do that we make a good choice,

00:25:45 ►

there’s a lot of different,

00:25:46 ►

there’s a lot of aspects

00:25:47 ►

of making a good choice.

00:25:49 ►

Chemistry is very important.

00:25:51 ►

You know that you can be,

00:25:52 ►

you know,

00:25:52 ►

best friends is number one.

00:25:53 ►

We always put best friends

00:25:54 ►

at the top.

00:25:55 ►

It’s good to be,

00:25:56 ►

you know,

00:25:56 ►

in a relationship

00:25:56 ►

with your best friend.

00:25:58 ►

Because then,

00:25:58 ►

you know,

00:25:58 ►

there’s that,

00:25:59 ►

you know,

00:26:00 ►

you always want the best

00:26:01 ►

for your best friend

00:26:01 ►

and they always want

00:26:02 ►

the best for you.

00:26:03 ►

So the best friend thing

00:26:04 ►

is good. But then there has to be chemistry,

00:26:06 ►

because I know we’ve all had relationships with a person who’s our best friend,

00:26:11 ►

but we don’t have the chemistry, maybe, with sexual attraction.

00:26:15 ►

That’s pretty important.

00:26:17 ►

I mean, how are you going to have that?

00:26:18 ►

It’s got to stay there.

00:26:20 ►

Oh, in the relationship.

00:26:22 ►

I don’t know.

00:26:23 ►

I mean, that’s what’s very important.

00:26:25 ►

there in the relationship. I don’t know. I mean, that’s what’s very important. But in choosing, if you’re in the position where you don’t have that one person, you haven’t

00:26:30 ►

found that one person, and you are searching and you feel like you wonder, how am I going

00:26:34 ►

to ever find that person? Here’s a piece of advice that we usually say. It’s basically

00:26:39 ►

pursue what you love. You know, start getting busy pursuing. Having a passion is really an important thing.

00:26:47 ►

And if you pursue what you love, you will attract people. Nobody wants to be with somebody

00:26:54 ►

who’s sort of uninteresting or doesn’t have a passion. You need to find your passion.

00:27:00 ►

And once you’ve found your passion, you will just instantly attract people. People are attracted to passionate people. So whatever it is that you love, just pursue it. And then

00:27:10 ►

if you don’t find that person that you love, at least you’re doing what you love. You know?

00:27:14 ►

I mean, you can spend your life doing what you love. So what do you know? I mean, I know

00:27:20 ►

it may seem impossible, you know, to find that absolutely perfect person. But, you know, you don’t want to stop pursuing your passion.

00:27:28 ►

So I think that’s a very important part of finding.

00:27:32 ►

Well, just going back to the tripping reference points,

00:27:39 ►

on, well, probably every trip that we take together,

00:27:43 ►

but one of the ones that Allison and I were on,

00:27:48 ►

we recognized.

00:27:49 ►

I was working in an anatomy lab

00:27:52 ►

where we had a lot of samples of human pathology

00:27:57 ►

and things like that,

00:27:58 ►

and many of those were Siamese twins,

00:28:00 ►

and they were quite extraordinary,

00:28:02 ►

and one of them was these babies that were connected at the head

00:28:09 ►

and it’s called craniophagous.

00:28:11 ►

Wherever there’s a connection with Siamese twins,

00:28:14 ►

they call it oophagous, you know, like thoracophagous,

00:28:18 ►

you know, if your thorax is attached to the other.

00:28:21 ►

And so we recognized that we were spiritophagous, you know, and that in

00:28:30 ►

fact we’re all spiritophagous, you know. We’re one mass of interconnectedness, but to be

00:28:39 ►

able to recognize that as the basis of your relationship, that there is a commonality of spiritual love energy that you share

00:28:49 ►

that’s flowing through both of you.

00:28:52 ►

And you’re both an expression of that,

00:28:55 ►

kind of a unique meat package of that infinite creative love energy.

00:29:05 ►

And so we’re all here in this love circuit.

00:29:08 ►

So I think of being able to recognize each other

00:29:12 ►

as an expression of that universal love

00:29:15 ►

sort of was one key recognition.

00:29:22 ►

Why look elsewhere?

00:29:24 ►

You could equally argue, well, then why not look everywhere?

00:29:29 ►

But for us, and just because we’re artists,

00:29:32 ►

we like to get things done, too,

00:29:34 ►

and we care so much for each other,

00:29:37 ►

that there was the notion that, well, look,

00:29:40 ►

you are an expression of the all and the divine.

00:29:46 ►

And gee whiz, we have this recognition with each other.

00:29:51 ►

Let’s honor that as the core of our relationship.

00:29:55 ►

And one of the other trips, when I was staring at Allison

00:29:58 ►

in this kind of meditative, you know, back and forth,

00:30:01 ►

tantric kind of, hello, how are you, just eye bridge thing,

00:30:06 ►

it was like, and probably, tantric kind of, hello, how are you, just eye bridge thing. It was like,

00:30:07 ►

and probably this is happening to everybody,

00:30:10 ►

but in a similar situation,

00:30:13 ►

where you recognize, like,

00:30:14 ►

oh, you’re you,

00:30:17 ►

but, like, you’re also that person

00:30:20 ►

and that person

00:30:22 ►

and that person

00:30:22 ►

and that person.

00:30:23 ►

And it was like a morphing kind of multi-human, every person kind of mask

00:30:33 ►

that, yes, we’re this flesh, this particular conglomeration,

00:30:38 ►

but equally, we’re, I don’t know what that was or what it was trying to show me

00:30:46 ►

but we’re everyone

00:30:47 ►

at the same time

00:30:49 ►

and not only just like humans

00:30:52 ►

of every sort of race

00:30:55 ►

and physiognomy

00:30:58 ►

but there were also expressions

00:31:00 ►

of the animal life forms

00:31:03 ►

and things like that as well

00:31:04 ►

that were running through it just like here we are we animal life forms and things like that as well,

00:31:06 ►

that we’re running through it.

00:31:07 ►

Just like here we are.

00:31:08 ►

We’re life forms.

00:31:12 ►

We contain all within ourselves.

00:31:16 ►

And just to recognize that, well, if you’re everyone,

00:31:17 ►

why should I look elsewhere?

00:31:21 ►

You know, may as well stay right here.

00:31:22 ►

You know. So now you’ve found the person. If you’ve found that person, how do you keep it interesting? May as well stay right here.

00:31:26 ►

So now you’ve found the person.

00:31:29 ►

If you’ve found that person, how do you keep it interesting?

00:31:31 ►

How do you maintain that relationship?

00:31:34 ►

How do you keep it going for the rest of your life?

00:31:37 ►

Because I haven’t had the rest of my life. I tell you, the 27 years is really a great training.

00:31:41 ►

It’s great for honing yourself.

00:31:41 ►

it’s a great training.

00:31:43 ►

It’s great, you know, for honing yourself. I mean, this is one thing I was

00:31:46 ►

going to say, that

00:31:46 ►

in order to have a really working

00:31:50 ►

relationship, you have to believe that

00:31:52 ►

there is some honing to do here.

00:31:54 ►

You know, that basically, you’re

00:31:56 ►

not, you know, you’re not

00:31:57 ►

enlightened yet, and there are

00:32:00 ►

areas that are rough,

00:32:02 ►

edges that could be smooth and

00:32:03 ►

you know, and honed.

00:32:05 ►

And you have improvements to make.

00:32:06 ►

So if you see this person as assisting you in that process, that’s a good way of, you know,

00:32:14 ►

because, you know, if you think you have problems, then they’re all their fault that you’re wrong.

00:32:21 ►

You know, basically you’ve got stuff too.

00:32:23 ►

So in order to, you know, kind of go through your stuff

00:32:26 ►

and learn more about yourself and become a better person,

00:32:29 ►

that’s a good reason to have a long-term relationship.

00:32:32 ►

And it does help you to discover those things about yourself

00:32:36 ►

and to, you know, have transformation in your life.

00:32:39 ►

Because, you know, what else is important but transformation?

00:32:42 ►

I mean, we can have that for our whole life.

00:32:45 ►

And one of the principles that we think is interesting about transformation,

00:32:51 ►

or for us, we call it the theory of compatible pathologies,

00:32:56 ►

which means that, you know, each one of us is a city.

00:32:59 ►

You know, Alex, you know, has, when we were first together,

00:33:04 ►

he had issues with depression, and he you know, has, when we were first together, he had issues with depression.

00:33:06 ►

And he gets kind of depressed, and that’s the way he manifests it.

00:33:09 ►

You know, his negativity is sort of like, you know, self, you know, I don’t know, loathing, whatever.

00:33:17 ►

And then I’m sort of like more like the cheerleader.

00:33:19 ►

And I’m like, oh, it’s great.

00:33:22 ►

And, you know, it’s going to be fine.

00:33:23 ►

And I’ve got this sort of like positive.

00:33:25 ►

But the other day, I grew up in a very angry, angry genes, you know,

00:33:29 ►

where I have, like, this tendency to, like, occasionally get moody or angry.

00:33:34 ►

Well, I also grew up in this sort of Protestant home where they never got angry.

00:33:38 ►

So that helped a lot, you know, to have somebody in my life that never got angry.

00:33:42 ►

And it was a really great, you know, influence on me.

00:33:46 ►

So we both kind of tempered a lot in those ways,

00:33:48 ►

and we know that about each other that, you know,

00:33:50 ►

my pathologies are tempered by Alex’s strength and vice versa,

00:33:54 ►

and that’s compatible pathology.

00:33:56 ►

So if you can see that in another person,

00:33:58 ►

that you’re not totally, you know, like well and whole

00:34:00 ►

and could become, you know, healed through that person.

00:34:03 ►

We’ve had many healings through each other.

00:34:06 ►

And the other principle that we call the better-than-me principle,

00:34:10 ►

it’s very helpful to see that person as sort of awesome.

00:34:14 ►

It’s like, whoa.

00:34:15 ►

And I will be, you know, we’ll be sitting in our pod.

00:34:18 ►

You know, we have this pod of directing tables, the three of us,

00:34:20 ►

and we’ll be sitting there working, and I’ll say,

00:34:22 ►

what are you thinking about?

00:34:24 ►

And, you know, Alex will say, oh, it’s just, you know, I’ll be sitting at my table and I’ll be thinking about what we’re going to have for dinner

00:34:30 ►

and what my mother just said to me and, you know, how I’m going to, you know, what I’m going to wear to the party next week.

00:34:39 ►

And Alex will be, you know, like, I just was reading Hegel and it was so fascinating how it relates to what I read last week about Schopenhauer.

00:34:46 ►

He’s doing this whole philosophical thing in his head.

00:34:49 ►

It just brings me out of myself.

00:34:52 ►

And I think, whoa, why is he interested in me?

00:34:56 ►

I can’t believe that he would have chosen me.

00:34:59 ►

He’s just brilliant and all that kind of stuff. So feeling that way, and hopefully,

00:35:06 ►

not just hopefully, but Alice tells me

00:35:08 ►

that he feels similarly about me

00:35:10 ►

in my selection of him,

00:35:13 ►

having those feelings about each other

00:35:15 ►

really helps to keep the relationship together

00:35:18 ►

because you keep seeing that person.

00:35:21 ►

It’s about admiration and respect.

00:35:23 ►

We talked about chemistry and best friend, and It’s about admiration and respect. We talked about chemistry and best friend,

00:35:27 ►

and then there’s admiration and respect.

00:35:29 ►

I think those are important points.

00:35:32 ►

I just wanted to add with that

00:35:34 ►

that I completely concur,

00:35:40 ►

and this is just to underscore what Allison said,

00:35:47 ►

that Norbu, Nankai Norbu, who is a Tibetan Buddhist master and one of our teachers, said that the principle of sort of the transmission that you’re trying to get from your guru. Like, if you take on a guru,

00:36:11 ►

then it really matters how you regard them.

00:36:14 ►

And, of course, in this lifetime,

00:36:16 ►

Allison and Zena are my gurus.

00:36:20 ►

And so, and Norbu as well, most of you.

00:36:25 ►

But, importantly, Allison’s my main guru.

00:36:29 ►

And so he was saying it really matters how you regard your guru.

00:36:40 ►

If you regard them as a dog, then you’ll get the transmission of a dog.

00:36:47 ►

If you regard them as a normal person, then you’ll get this kind of transmission of just a normal person. If you regard them as an enlightened Buddha, as a force of spiritual

00:36:58 ►

awakening in your life, in a sense transcending some of those other elements,

00:37:05 ►

which they may also be.

00:37:06 ►

But if you hold them, in their essence, as that enlightening presence,

00:37:13 ►

then that is the transmission,

00:37:16 ►

and that is the forward movement that you can expect in your life.

00:37:22 ►

And so, for me, she’s an expression of that principle,

00:37:26 ►

that highest principle.

00:37:28 ►

And so, in that,

00:37:30 ►

I can trust when I get whacked,

00:37:35 ►

you know, like the Zen master’s staff,

00:37:40 ►

or as you’re walking through the valley

00:37:43 ►

of the shadow of the dove,

00:37:44 ►

you know, and they rob my staff, they comfort me.

00:37:47 ►

You know, you’re talking about a force of the absolute.

00:37:52 ►

And if you’re able to see past your defenses

00:37:55 ►

and see and recognize how they’re training you,

00:38:01 ►

then that’s also a help.

00:38:03 ►

I don’t know.

00:38:04 ►

I guess we have an abnormally good relationship.

00:38:10 ►

A lot of my friends, like, fight with their parents or whatever, I don’t know.

00:38:15 ►

But, yeah, we disagree, but it’s not like just because I’m a teenager we, like, hate

00:38:23 ►

each other or something.

00:38:24 ►

So, I don’t know. It’s not like just because I’m a teenager we like hate each other or something.

00:38:28 ►

So I don’t know.

00:38:30 ►

We get along pretty well, I think. And this being here is like a test.

00:38:35 ►

I don’t know.

00:38:39 ►

Just because like you have to stay in a room while we’re staying in a trailer.

00:38:44 ►

We have to stay in a trailer together for a a trailer. You have to stay in a trailer together

00:38:45 ►

for a week or whatever.

00:38:48 ►

So it’s like, I don’t know.

00:38:50 ►

How did that go?

00:38:51 ►

It was cool.

00:38:55 ►

Thank you.

00:38:56 ►

Thank you.

00:39:02 ►

So we wanted to make

00:39:04 ►

fencing. We wanted to make one more point

00:39:06 ►

about the love issue

00:39:09 ►

and then we’re going to move on to family

00:39:10 ►

where Deanna’s going to participate even more

00:39:12 ►

I’m hoping, we’ll talk more about what it’s like

00:39:14 ►

to be a parent and what it’s like to be a kid

00:39:16 ►

but anyway

00:39:18 ►

so we’ve talked about

00:39:21 ►

finding the person, we’ve talked about

00:39:22 ►

some of the issues of staying with that person, then

00:39:25 ►

there’s, you know, how to get through

00:39:27 ►

the rough patches, because, you know,

00:39:29 ►

you’re both not

00:39:31 ►

enlightened beings, and you have

00:39:34 ►

your stuff that you bring into the

00:39:35 ►

relationship, so how do you get through

00:39:37 ►

those rough patches? And, of course,

00:39:41 ►

there we go.

00:39:44 ►

So, then, you know, so what do you do?

00:39:48 ►

I mean, everybody says it.

00:39:50 ►

Everybody knows it.

00:39:51 ►

It’s obvious communication.

00:39:53 ►

You just say that, but, like, what does that mean?

00:39:55 ►

You know, communication, if you, you know, it’s about the way you communicate with that person.

00:40:00 ►

It’s not just, you know, keeping your mouth moving, you know, chin wagging and small

00:40:07 ►

mouth movements, as Sarah would say. It’s how you communicate with that person. You

00:40:12 ►

know, how you, do you do it with consciousness and with love and with an open heart, you

00:40:20 ►

know, keeping in mind that you’re not withhold games, like I’m not going to talk to you,

00:40:25 ►

and hurting games like name calling and those kinds of things.

00:40:30 ►

So communication is the way to get through rough patches,

00:40:33 ►

and learning how to communicate in an open-hearted way is obviously the way to do it.

00:40:38 ►

I won’t dwell on that because that’s pretty obvious to everybody.

00:40:40 ►

You just remember communication, retention, communication.

00:40:43 ►

And, of course, can I say that I mentioned this?

00:40:47 ►

Because this is what happened to me.

00:40:48 ►

I was, my first DMT experience, you know, I had all these questions.

00:40:55 ►

I had a lot of issues.

00:40:56 ►

You know, I had like an agenda.

00:40:58 ►

I was going to ask the elf in spirit, like, certain questions I wanted to have answered.

00:41:02 ►

And it goes pretty quick.

00:41:03 ►

You know, it’s like ten minutes across your vision.

00:41:06 ►

So I could see them coming.

00:41:08 ►

I mean, well, I couldn’t see any person, actually, but I started with my questions.

00:41:12 ►

I was like, you know, how do I be a better parent?

00:41:16 ►

I think, you know, I just wanted to be a better parent.

00:41:18 ►

And the first thing that happened was they were laughing at me.

00:41:21 ►

Like, there they were over there, and they were, like, laughing at me.

00:41:25 ►

And I wasn’t, like, used to that.

00:41:26 ►

I’m taking myself a little too seriously, probably.

00:41:29 ►

And I was just like, they were laughing at me.

00:41:31 ►

And I was like, okay, well, I’ve got to ask my questions now.

00:41:34 ►

You know, how do I be a better parent?

00:41:36 ►

And they said, laugh more.

00:41:38 ►

And then I said, well, okay, but how do I be a better wife?

00:41:41 ►

You know, how do I be the best partner I can be?

00:41:44 ►

Well, laugh more. How do I be the best wife? How do I be the best partner I can be? Well, laugh more.

00:41:45 ►

How do I be the best artist?

00:41:46 ►

Well, give me my next art idea.

00:41:48 ►

I got this art thing and I can’t decide.

00:41:51 ►

What am I going to do?

00:41:52 ►

Laugh more.

00:41:53 ►

So basically, laugh more was all they told me,

00:41:55 ►

and they just laughed at me the whole time.

00:41:58 ►

And I feel like that’s really the best thing to do in a relationship.

00:42:05 ►

Just remember to laugh more. It’s really the way thing to do in a relationship. Just remember to laugh more.

00:42:07 ►

It’s really the way to keep a relationship together.

00:42:09 ►

It’s a great kind of glue.

00:42:12 ►

All right, so our third topic was family.

00:42:15 ►

And some of you are, well, you’re all part of a family,

00:42:19 ►

and some of you have your own families, kids, and whatever.

00:42:22 ►

And so the first question is, especially if you’re

00:42:25 ►

not parents, is why be parents? You know, like, why even be a parent? It’s such a lot

00:42:31 ►

of work, and it’s so hard, and like, why even do it? Some people do decide not to be parents,

00:42:38 ►

and I think that’s a really good decision for some people, so I’m not thinking that

00:42:41 ►

everyone should be parents. Because, you know, if you feel, I thought for a long time that I wouldn’t be a parent.

00:42:48 ►

It wasn’t until my mother remembers me saying when I was little that I wasn’t going to be a parent.

00:42:51 ►

And I didn’t want to be a parent in my 20s.

00:42:54 ►

And then somewhere in my late 30s, I really, it was like there was nothing I could think about

00:43:00 ►

except being a parent.

00:43:01 ►

I just wanted to have a child so bad I could feel it, I could taste it.

00:43:04 ►

It was like every pregnant

00:43:05 ►

person I was

00:43:06 ►

jealous of, you

00:43:07 ►

know, and I

00:43:07 ►

wanted a baby

00:43:08 ►

really, really

00:43:09 ►

bad when I was

00:43:09 ►

about 34.

00:43:11 ►

And then we

00:43:11 ►

had seen it

00:43:11 ►

when I was

00:43:12 ►
00:43:13 ►

So if you

00:43:13 ►

feel like you

00:43:14 ►

need to wait,

00:43:15 ►

I just, you

00:43:16 ►

know, it’s been

00:43:17 ►

great being an

00:43:18 ►

older mother.

00:43:19 ►

I mean, it’s

00:43:19 ►

actually great

00:43:20 ►

because I would

00:43:20 ►

have been a

00:43:21 ►

terrible mother

00:43:21 ►

in my 20s.

00:43:22 ►

And I think

00:43:22 ►

I, you know,

00:43:23 ►

I mean, Zena

00:43:24 ►

will tell you

00:43:24 ►

whether I’m going to be a not, but I think we get along

00:43:27 ►

okay. So I’m editing my mistakes for sure. But, you know, I think I’ve done a much better

00:43:31 ►

job than I would have. And I’m really glad to have had what we call the parent training.

00:43:36 ►

And that’s what we came to, was that we didn’t want to have the life training without the

00:43:40 ►

parent training. You have this one life. This is it, folks. And we only have a certain amount of years to live.

00:43:47 ►

And during that training,

00:43:49 ►

I wanted to get the parent training.

00:43:51 ►

And the parent training is, you know,

00:43:53 ►

it’s really confronting.

00:43:55 ►

And it’s the hardest, best thing we have ever done.

00:43:58 ►

Far not.

00:43:59 ►

It’s just the hardest thing,

00:44:01 ►

and it’s the best thing.

00:44:01 ►

It’s hard, you know, in so many

00:44:06 ►

ways. It hones you and

00:44:07 ►

smooths your edges and it

00:44:09 ►

confronts you with yourself. There’s no

00:44:11 ►

one who will be more honest with you than your child.

00:44:14 ►

Even your partner won’t be as honest with you as your child.

00:44:16 ►

Your child will tell you exactly

00:44:17 ►

what’s up with you. What shit do

00:44:19 ►

you have? They will let you know.

00:44:22 ►

And you will be confronted with

00:44:24 ►

your shit, you know, on a daily basis. So if you want self will let you know. And you will be confronted with your shit, you know,

00:44:25 ►

on a daily basis. So if you want self-improvement, you know, and transformation in your life,

00:44:31 ►

the parent training is a really good training to go with. And that’s what we decided. We

00:44:35 ►

didn’t want to go through the life training without the parent training. So we went ahead

00:44:39 ►

and did that. Now, you know, there are entire libraries of books on parenting,

00:44:45 ►

and so I won’t, you know, try to list them here,

00:44:47 ►

but, you know, I’m really, really happy to field questions about parenting and family

00:44:53 ►

and this sort of thing.

00:44:55 ►

I think that this relates to what we were talking about before,

00:45:00 ►

about recognizing what the guru is an expression of

00:45:05 ►

and thereby what each of us are an expression of.

00:45:10 ►

And so if you’re thinking about having a child

00:45:13 ►

or something like that,

00:45:15 ►

and having relationships and things like that,

00:45:21 ►

if you can recognize them as this already enlightened presence

00:45:28 ►

that is coming into form that you’re able to have a relationship with,

00:45:33 ►

if that’s the basis of your relationship,

00:45:36 ►

that you know their inherent goodness and purity and completion already,

00:45:43 ►

and you nurture that,

00:45:45 ►

it’s like, what happens when these

00:45:47 ►

Tolkus get born and they’re raised

00:45:50 ►

over in Tibet by those who are

00:45:54 ►

honoring them as reincarnated

00:45:56 ►

Lama, reincarnations of a great

00:46:00 ►

enlightening presence.

00:46:03 ►

If we could take that as a reference point,

00:46:05 ►

it’s that in some way, you know,

00:46:07 ►

when we’re relating to our children,

00:46:11 ►

then perhaps that can foster that kind of space

00:46:16 ►

and spaciousness and love and presence,

00:46:20 ►

compassion, wisdom,

00:46:21 ►

all the forces of goodness

00:46:23 ►

that we want to help nurture in each other.

00:46:27 ►

So that’s the getting down to an essence of how I think that we could approach our relationship with each other.

00:46:39 ►

It’s just that respect and honor at that level.

00:46:43 ►

respect and honor at that level.

00:46:47 ►

Well, I was going to say something about the basic principles of parenting.

00:46:54 ►

We were coming up with a list of, frankly, I’m writing a book on the subject,

00:47:00 ►

on this whole topic, and so I was sort of enlisting Alex and Dina,

00:47:03 ►

and the three of us were coming up with, the subject was,

00:47:05 ►

how would we like to be parented?

00:47:08 ►

I mean, this is the way I think this is best parenting.

00:47:10 ►

It’s basically, if you were a child,

00:47:12 ►

how would you like to be parented?

00:47:15 ►

And coming up with that list,

00:47:16 ►

we came up with things like,

00:47:20 ►

we would like our parents to teach us things,

00:47:22 ►

we’d like our parents to be available to us,

00:47:23 ►

we’d like our parents,

00:47:25 ►

and you can come up with this list yourself.

00:47:28 ►

I won’t go into too much detail with that. But in thinking about

00:47:30 ►

the best way to parent,

00:47:32 ►

I think that first number one is

00:47:33 ►

seeing your child as

00:47:35 ►

a reincarnated Buddha,

00:47:38 ►

your guru, your teacher,

00:47:40 ►

that in every stage of the

00:47:42 ►

way, you’re reflecting on

00:47:43 ►

yourself.

00:47:48 ►

And if you knew that your child was a reincarnated Buddha,

00:47:50 ►

would you punish them?

00:47:51 ►

Would you hit them?

00:47:53 ►

Would you call them names?

00:47:55 ►

Would you be sarcastic with them?

00:47:57 ►

You know, would you yell at them?

00:47:59 ►

So seeing that it was a reincarnated Buddha is the first step in being, you know,

00:48:01 ►

I think in being aware of yourself as a parent.

00:48:03 ►

You know, because Dalai Lama was taken from his parents, but he was

00:48:06 ►

raised as a reincarnated Buddha

00:48:08 ►

and, you know, you can imagine what

00:48:10 ►

his upbringing was like. He had an incredible

00:48:12 ►

amount of respect and love.

00:48:14 ►

And that’s what we,

00:48:15 ►

you know, what we all want to do with our children.

00:48:18 ►

So,

00:48:19 ►

that’s important. But then just the list of

00:48:22 ►

if you were a child, and we all

00:48:24 ►

were children,

00:48:26 ►

how would we like to be parented?

00:48:29 ►

We would like a parent to forgive us when we make mistakes.

00:48:33 ►

We would like a parent to be appropriate in appropriate situations, to be healthy and to take care of themselves, exercise and eat right.

00:48:41 ►

Those kinds of things.

00:48:42 ►

I won’t go into the whole list, but it was a fun exercise to come up with,

00:48:47 ►

like, you know, to be thinking about

00:48:48 ►

the way you would like to be parented if you were a child.

00:48:51 ►

I think that’s a great way to think about parenting.

00:48:58 ►

I’m sorry I’m going to have to break into the flow

00:49:01 ►

of this wonderful discussion right here,

00:49:02 ►

but there’s still more than a half hour left,

00:49:05 ►

and we don’t want to make this podcast just be monstrously long.

00:49:09 ►

So we’ll sign off for now,

00:49:13 ►

and probably see you in Psychedelic Salon No. 8,

00:49:16 ►

where we’re going to bring you Part 2 of this great presentation.

00:49:21 ►

It’s where Allison and Alex talk about parenting in the psychedelic age,

00:49:25 ►

or as Allison likes to call it, parenting in other mind states.

00:49:30 ►

And they also tell a little bit about their vision for the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors.

00:49:35 ►

Of course, this was in 2003, their vision, and a lot has happened since then.

00:49:40 ►

You’ve got to check that out on Alex’s website.

00:49:42 ►

For you tool and string cheese fans, by the way,

00:49:46 ►

that part two of this talk, Alex does bring up tool and string cheese,

00:49:52 ►

mentions something about working with them.

00:49:55 ►

The Grays also discuss the relative merits of art school

00:49:58 ►

and other educational institutions in general.

00:50:03 ►

So unless I miss my guests,

00:50:04 ►

we’ll probably be seeing you here again

00:50:06 ►

in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:50:08 ►

For more information about us,

00:50:09 ►

you can just go to matrixmasters.com

00:50:12 ►

or to pick up just the audio feeds from our website,

00:50:17 ►

you can go to planquenorte.org,

00:50:19 ►

P-A-L-E-N-Q-U-E-N-O-R-T-E dot org.

00:50:25 ►

And we don’t have all of our MP3 files in podcast format yet,

00:50:30 ►

but you can certainly download them and listen to a lot of the presentations we’ve produced so far

00:50:35 ►

and some that are coming from other producers.

00:50:38 ►

And if you haven’t been to the Gray’s websites,

00:50:41 ►

the Gray’s websites.

00:50:42 ►

You can find them at www.zenagrey.com

00:50:50 ►

or alexgray.com

00:51:00 ►

Of course, you can always

00:51:01 ►

Google them and find a couple

00:51:03 ►

hundred thousand other hits if you’re interested and really ambitious.

00:51:08 ►

Well, thanks again for joining us here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:51:11 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space.

00:51:16 ►

Be well, my friends.

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