388 - Wherever You Are, Be There!

Program Notes

Guest speaker: Dr. George Greer

[NOTE: All quotations are by George Greer.]

“Meaning: the final addiction!”

“Meaning is suffering.”

“How do you feel your experience would be different if you ‘understood’ the universe? How would your experience be different from right now?”

“My thought about MDMA is that it blocks the fear response to a perceived emotional threat.”

GEORGE R. GREER, MD
Co-Founder, Medical Director, Secretary of the Heffter Research Institute

Spheres & Constellations by Farthest South

Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Greetings from Cyberdelic Space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic

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Salon.

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And I’d like to begin today by first thanking our friends at Stabilist Drywall Services,

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who have been sending in monthly donations for a long time now.

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I really appreciate your long-term support.

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Also, I want to thank Louis N., Aaron P., Jimmy L., and longtime salonner William K.

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Also, a thank you to Martin W. for the cool book. A couple of days ago, Dr. Charlie Groves stopped by for a visit, and when he noticed

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that book, he asked if he could borrow it when I finished reading it. So, your gift

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is going to be put to good use. And Michael S., your Message to Lorenzo video was really

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nice.

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That’s the first time that anyone ever did that, and I’ll always remember you.

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And finally, I’d like to thank the anonymous Bitcoin donor.

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We now have received at least one Bitcoin donation in each of the three months since I figured out how to accept them. So, a big thank you to you, dear soul.

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And at the end of today’s program, I’m going to play a sample of some new music

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from the Israeli psychedelic improv group, Far The South,

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who also happen to be fellow salonners.

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So, for today’s program, I’m going to play another of the 2013 Palenque Norte lectures

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that took place at the Burning Man Festival.

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And the talk that I’m going to play

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is the one given by Dr. George Greer, and is the one that Dr. Griffiths mentioned in his talk,

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which we heard a couple of podcasts back. In just a moment, you’re going to hear Chris Pezza

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introduce Dr. Greer, and you’ll hear Pezz mention some of George’s very impressive credentials.

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But for me, the highest credential he can have is tied up in

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the way we met for the first time. Although my wife already knew George, my first time to see

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him was when he walked into our Burning Man camp in 2002 wearing a long white toga, an olive wreath

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on his head, and a big smile on his face. George has been a burner for a long time, and that, for me, is about as good a credential

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as a person would want. Now, I do have to admit that during the first 10 minutes or so, I had a

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hard time listening, mainly because it was a little difficult to follow without seeing the chart that

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George was referring to. And you can see a little bit of it in the photo of George that I’ve included

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with the program notes, though, so if you surf on over to that blog via psychedelicsalon.us, you can see a little bit of it in the photo of George that I’ve included with the program notes, though.

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So if you surf on over to that blog via psychedelicsalon.us, you can get a little better idea of his introduction to this talk.

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But trust me, you’re going to most definitely want to learn the mental techniques that Dr. Greer suggests in this talk.

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And here, however, I must beg forgiveness from both you and Dr. Greer, but during his talk,

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there were a few points where he would pause and let the audience do the mental exercise that he just described. Now, if this was an instructional program, I would have left those long pauses in.

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However, in view of the fact that many of our fellow salonners listen to these podcasts on

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their way to work, well, I wouldn’t want anybody to get so spaced out that they miss their subway stop or something like that.

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So please forgive me for making all of those pauses quite brief,

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but it should be obvious where they come,

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and so if you want to do the exercise right then,

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all you have to do is hit the pause button on your MP3 player.

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Well, that’s enough of me for the time being, so now let’s join Pez as he introduces doctor and longtime burner, George Greer.

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All right, everybody, welcome back.

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Well, I’m very excited to introduce our next speaker here.

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We have Dr. George Greer with us.

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introduce our next speaker here. We have Dr. George Greer with us. And Dr. Greer is the co-founder and medical director of the Hefter Research Institute, which sponsored several of the

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psychedelic studies that you just heard about. And Dr. Greer has conducted over 100 therapeutic

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sessions with MDMA for 80 individuals between 1980 to 1985 with a psychiatric nurse wife, Rika Tolbert.

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Their review of this work remains the largest published study of the therapeutic use of MDMA.

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He is a distinguished fellow of the American Psychiatric Society

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and past president of the Psychiatric Medical Association of New Mexico.

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He was also the clinical director of mental health services

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for the New Mexico Corrections Department during the 1990s.

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He has been the Medical Director of Hefter Research Institute since 1998.

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So please welcome Dr. George Greer. Is everybody safe and warm inside?

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Go ahead and sense the presence of the contentless background now,

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did anybody have any difficulty doing that?

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Okay.

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Tell me what described your difficulty.

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My difficulty, I would say,

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was intellectual.

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I was intellectually searching

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for the right answer.

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So the words I said

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didn’t really translate to you

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in terms of what you think

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I was trying to have you do

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intellectually.

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Okay.

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So there is a need for me to talk further then.

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Okay.

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Otherwise, that would have been it.

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Okay.

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So I’m going to make the talk a little more complicated now,

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for those of you who think.

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And I’m going to approach it from two ways from two

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models the first model is from Arthur Young’s theory of process in this book

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called the reflexive universe and Arthur divides all of reality if you’re going

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to talk about anything you have to divide it up so you can talk about pieces and parts and have contrast.

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So he starts with, he divides it up as form and substance.

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So form is everything like mind, thoughts, thinking, images, words, ideas.

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Substance is everything that’s not formless that’s part of reality.

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So in terms of the outer world, it’s matter without form.

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But we’re talking about experiential world. So the best example of substance is just pure emotion without content.

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The best example of substance is just pure emotion without content.

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So I’m going to take you through a little mental exercise to focus on four levels. And the four levels are substance with form, form without substance,

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substance without form, and no form and no substance

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and the contentless background

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has no form and no substance

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but I think it’s real

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okay so

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if you start to feel weird or spacey

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uncomfortable

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you know open your eyes and

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ground yourself in your body

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and don’t worry about it

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so right now pay attention you know, open your eyes and ground yourself in your body and don’t worry about it.

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So right now, pay attention with your mind, attend to sensory input.

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And let’s start with visual input.

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Just notice seeing everything you see, this tint, the people, me, the colors,

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and recognize that that is sensory input.

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And it changes, it comes and goes.

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And just try to watch that and not necessarily just take it in and believe it’s really out there.

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So everything you see is just a product of your brain and perception.

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Now, sound. The music out there, the sound of my voice, that’s also perception.

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And now the sensations from your body, the feeling of your body on the ground,

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your proprioception, where your legs are, where your knees are.

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Just notice that, but don’t be that.

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That’s this bottom level on this chart here.

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Form and substance.

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It changes a lot, constantly.

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Now, notice any kind of formed

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thought that you’re having.

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The meaning that my words

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make in your mind.

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Ideas that flow

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through your mind. Images that flow

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through your mind that have nothing to do with

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what your sensory input is right now. Just pure thought imagery form, that has form.

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And so don’t be that, just notice that you’re watching that. And now, this is a little trickier because it’s formless. Notice any emotion that you have. And I’m

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going to define motion as an experience that pulls you toward it or pushes you away. So

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like if it’s fear or anxiety, it’s like, I want to move away from that. If it’s pleasure or desire, I want to move toward that.

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And emotions, there’s physical sensations with emotions, usually in this part of our body, in our abdomen and chest.

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That’s where we physically feel emotion.

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But as best you can, try to focus on just the pure, non-physical feeling.

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And again, don’t be it and just notice it.

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And so now, what I’m trying to communicate to you is the aspect of your experience that is not any of those things.

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That’s just the background of your awareness.

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The background of attention.

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A metaphor is unlimited space, but it’s not physical space.

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And for me, that background isness is really,

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I can’t tell if it’s inside me or outside there,

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but my feeling is it’s both.

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It’s the background of out there, it’s the background of in here, and when you get down to just pure experience, there’s really, you know, it’s an artificial boundary experientially.

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And my sense of that is it really doesn’t care about time, now, then, past, future.

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It’s not affected by emotion or thought or the body.

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So that is what I mean by the contentless background,

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because this background awareness, it has no content itself the content is the

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The sensory input the thoughts the feelings that’s all content

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So this is the background from which we observe all that content

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so does that Make any sense to you?

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Okay

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so Make any sense to you? Yeah, okay. So I’ll just, does anyone else have any questions about the model I just presented or not understand it?

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Okay.

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I’m going to talk just a little bit more.

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I’m going to digress from the main focus of this talk, which is just, you know, be here now, notice what is the background,

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to describe a little about this model, because I like it because it purports to explain everything,

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outside science, natural science, inside, human experience, human culture, mythology.

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inside human experience, human culture, mythology.

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And Arthur Young was a mathematician.

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He hung around with Einstein and people like that in the 20s.

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He believes that there is purpose in the universe,

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that all matter is evolving from light to subnuclear particles,

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atoms, form, substance, matter,

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and then that this purpose is then pulled back up to just pure being.

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That’s just the nature of it.

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It’s like a spirit is pulling up evolution from here.

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And then there’s complex molecules.

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And finally, DNA is the final thing that can replicate itself.

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And it’s fractal in that it can apply to chemistry, biology, natural evolution biology.

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So you’d go from molecules, plants, animals, humans with consciousness.

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It also is sort of a simple model of the hero’s journey,

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who starts in a quest, has a great ordeal and trauma going into the cave to fight the monster,

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and comes out and is a hero and helps his people.

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So it’s just to let you know that this model is out there,

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Arthur Young, Reflexive Universe.

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I like it.

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Okay.

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There’s another model that I like to use.

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In my mind, when I ask the question,

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what’s going on now?

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How do I explain this?

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I kind of come to this.

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When I say, I really need to get perspective now,

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I use a different model.

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When I don’t really care how to explain it,

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I just want, you know, I need perspective now.

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The other model I like is,

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it’s a pair of books called A Course in Miracles.

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And it’s a long text and then a workbook where you do lessons every day.

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And it was, I would say, basically channeled by a female Jewish psychologist in New York City in the 70s.

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And she didn’t relate to it at all and

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and she dictated it to this her partner psychologist and they wrote it all down

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they didn’t publish it for five years and a lot of the sort of transpersonal people in the 80s

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got into it and published it so these are just, affirmations, but it points in the same

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direction and it helps me get my mind oriented toward this what I call the

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contentless background of reality. So here’s an example. I am in danger

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nowhere in the world. So if you logically sort of parse that, what does that mean?

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I am in danger nowhere in the world.

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Well, clearly my body is in danger in this world.

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You know, I’m going to die.

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I could have an accident.

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I could suffer pain.

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So the implication of this is I am not my body.

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And the other part is, you know, I still have a mind,

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I have thoughts, I have feelings.

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You know, I can have my feelings hurt,

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I can get confused, even if my body’s okay,

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I can have existential crisis, despair,

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and I won’t like that.

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That’s danger.

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So this would imply that I am not my thoughts. I’m not my feelings.

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I’m not anything that can be heard. And my sense of this background is that it fits that

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description. It can’t be affected by thoughts, feelings, material things. It just doesn’t care

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if the whole planet blew up, it would still be there.

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If I took some incredible, powerful, psychedelic drug, like one of the smokable tryptamines or a

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huge dose or whatever, or ketamine, that that background of awareness is just completely the

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same. And you can just see for yourself,

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I’m sure some people here occasionally take mind-altering drugs,

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and just, you know, if you think of it and notice in the middle of it,

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okay, is this background, being this awareness,

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here, now, in this DMT state or whatever?

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And at least my experience is it’s really the same as just, you know, when I brush my teeth.

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It just doesn’t really matter.

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It’s always there.

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And it’s, you know, psychologically, it’s hard to, it’s not easy to ground oneself in just pure emptiness.

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And you can’t really get a hold of it.

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But I still find it helpful to at least point my mind in that direction when I’m disturbed or freaked out or upset.

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Because I do experience some reassurance there.

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I do experience some reassurance there.

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And probably from having done these lessons for 20 or 30 years.

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I do it daily to start my daily mindfulness meditation,

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just to kind of get focused in the mindfulness direction.

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The basic lesson of the Course in Miracles is nothing real can be threatened.

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Nothing unreal exists.

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Herein lies the peace of God.

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So now I want to get to, you know, this contentless background. That’s my, it just popped in my head, you know, what to call it that’s not related to religious traditions or philosophy traditions or ideology.

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Because once you use a word that connects to an ideology, then that whole ideology fills your mind and you’re thinking about it.

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then that whole ideology fills your mind and you’re thinking about it. Like Hinduism or Christianity or secular humanism or physics or whatever.

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So what I like about it is that we can label this background isness any way we want.

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We can call it the contentless background.

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We can call it nirvana.

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We can call it the body of Christ.

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We can call it the logos.

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We can call it the logos.

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We can call it anything.

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And so, you know, we can then create our own belief, our intellectual belief system.

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And, you know, beliefs, a firm belief form sticks around.

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You know, people pretty much stick to their ideology, their belief system throughout their lives.

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And I think it is possible through repetition to reprogram that and say, I’m going to label this background God or whatever.

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And so, therefore, what I am, what God is, is one.

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And if you’re talking to a Christian,

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it’s like, are you saved?

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Yeah, I’m saved.

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You know, have you accepted Jesus in your life?

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Absolutely.

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He’s right here and right now.

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You know, are you enlightened?

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Yeah.

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You know, if I notice it,

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if I try to notice it,

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yeah, if I think about it,

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yeah, it’s there.

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And yesterday, Roland Griffiths asked me,

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are you aware that you’re aware right now?

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And when he was asking the question, I wasn’t.

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But after I processed the question,

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it pointed me to exactly what, like,

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those Course in Miracles lessons do, and it’s like, yes, I am now. it pointed me to exactly what like those course of miracle lessons doing this

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like yes I am now and it’s not easy to do because there’s no emotional

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reinforcer to do this there’s no desire that’s I don’t think there’s a at least

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a physical emotional you know energy desire to do this.

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It’s something that we have to choose.

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And, you know, I work with psychedelics, MDMA, and that sort of thing,

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and work as a psychiatrist, you know, with patients who are suffering or lost, confused.

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know with patients who are suffering or lost confused I like to remind them that no matter what their symptoms are or their emotion or their confusion there’s

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always the possibility of making a choice to orient toward spirit that’s

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another word we can call it just just spirit. To orient toward that, away from

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suffering, away from attachment,

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away

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from the

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prison, the confinement of this

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dense conceptual

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world.

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In other words,

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you can’t make your feeling change right now.

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If you’re feeling depressed or sad or anxious, you can’t just say,

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okay, I’m not going to be anxious now. At least I can’t do that.

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I’m not going to be anxious now, and then it goes away.

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But you can decide, I’m going to feel out where I want to go,

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and I think I want to go this direction because that’s away from anxiety and

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despair and suffering and toward the light or positivity you can orient yourself and you can’t

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really at least I can’t control moving or how fast you get there or whatever but at least I can say

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okay I feel horrible now but I am pointed in a direction that I really

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want to go in and that can really help the person feel less trapped and afraid

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and scattered so go ahead and since the presence of the contentless background now.

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Any questions?

00:24:10 ►

No questions?

00:24:11 ►

Oh, no, there was a question.

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Okay.

00:24:15 ►

Well, my question is, I guess,

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how do I sense this contentless background?

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Because I’m still not quite getting it, actually.

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Well, let me ask you this.

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Why would you want to in the first place?

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I don’t know how to answer that question either.

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Because let me talk about will, sort of purpose and will, because in a way, executive function, purpose, choosing, making a decision, in a way, is something that doesn’t have form or content. In a way, it’s up here at this highest level of being where you’re on top of things, you’re in charge. And you’re the chooser.

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And if I ask you,

00:25:14 ►

pay attention right now to what in you chooses in the moment.

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You know, just whatever sensation

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you have about, okay, this is

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the place that I choose from.

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And what are the qualities

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of that?

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Can you answer that question?

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Mine would be for a desire

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of understanding.

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To understand me? No, to understand

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the universe, to understand the purpose of anything.

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So how do you feel

00:25:51 ►

your experience would be different if you understood the universe?

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How would your experience be different from right now if you

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felt and believed, okay, I understand the universe.

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Mission accomplished.

00:26:08 ►

How would you do that?

00:26:10 ►

I actually have wondered if somebody did get to that point,

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would then it seem like there’s no purpose for anything anymore

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because now you’ve just sort of figured everything out.

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That’s great.

00:26:22 ►

I agree with you.

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And I’m glad you said that because that brings me to this.

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It’s a quote on my Facebook page that just sort of came to me.

00:26:36 ►

Meaning, the final addiction.

00:26:43 ►

So, and I’ve seen patients who’ve’ve taken i remember this one patient she’d taken

00:26:48 ►

so much lsd that she was in that like there’s no meaning to anything everything is pointless

00:26:56 ►

you know the classic existential despair there is no meaning in anything, and I’m not happy.

00:27:10 ►

And speaking psychologically, I think that’s, I don’t like to say necessary,

00:27:17 ►

because I don’t understand the universe either,

00:27:19 ►

but I think a lot of people go through sort of an existential death and rebirth

00:27:23 ►

where they get to the point where there’s…

00:27:26 ►

I mean, I went through something like this.

00:27:29 ►

Assisted with, you know.

00:27:32 ►

There was no meaning in anything.

00:27:33 ►

There’s no point in living or dying, so why not kill yourself?

00:27:37 ►

I mean, it doesn’t matter. Nothing cares.

00:27:39 ►

This reality doesn’t care if I live or die.

00:27:43 ►

Psychologically, sorry for the people over there, I can’t see this good.

00:27:48 ►

I think that’s hitting bottom here.

00:27:51 ►

It’s like all the programming, desire, biology forces, survival.

00:27:59 ►

You go here to existential despair, and you hit the bottom, and you bounce off.

00:28:01 ►

to existential despair,

00:28:03 ►

and you hit the bottom,

00:28:04 ►

and you bounce off.

00:28:08 ►

And up here,

00:28:10 ►

the universe,

00:28:12 ►

or whatever is running the universe,

00:28:15 ►

you could call it grace,

00:28:17 ►

you know, you can’t control it,

00:28:19 ►

starts pulling you up.

00:28:24 ►

And meaning comes to you.

00:28:28 ►

You can’t make it happen on your schedule.

00:28:35 ►

All you can do is be here now, be ready, be open for grace,

00:28:42 ►

for help, assistance to come to you.

00:28:48 ►

And that’s something, you know, this is all about control of the ego,

00:28:53 ►

and this is all about releasing control and letting something mysterious that I can’t explain happen.

00:28:56 ►

And, you know, a lot of people have stories of, well, you know,

00:29:02 ►

AA, alcoholics, addicts, you know, hitting bottom

00:29:05 ►

or spontaneous religious experience.

00:29:09 ►

You know, I was desperate

00:29:10 ►

and the Holy Spirit came to me

00:29:13 ►

and I was saved and I’m thankful.

00:29:15 ►

And they frame it in the context of their religion

00:29:18 ►

or whatever it was at that time.

00:29:20 ►

But, you know, it can happen in any religion,

00:29:22 ►

any culture.

00:29:23 ►

And my experience is that the meaningless phase,

00:29:29 ►

in other words, meaningless comes and goes too in experience.

00:29:33 ►

For this patient, she had felt her life was meaningless for, you know,

00:29:38 ►

several months or a year or two, and she hadn’t killed herself.

00:29:41 ►

You know, there was, like, no desire to kill herself either.

00:29:43 ►

It’s like, you know, whatever.

00:29:45 ►

But sometimes I think, and this is very Buddhist,

00:29:52 ►

because the Buddhists are completely aware of attachment to everything,

00:29:56 ►

including attachment to meaning,

00:30:11 ►

the subtle delusion that being attached to meaning can cause. When I was in therapy, my therapist said,

00:30:16 ►

well, are you attached to getting better?

00:30:20 ►

It’s like, yep, I am.

00:30:24 ►

I am attached to getting better.

00:30:26 ►

And I know it’s all an illusion, it’s all a delusion,

00:30:29 ►

but, I mean, to be honest, I feel that way.

00:30:31 ►

I’m attached to getting better.

00:30:34 ►

I joke with my friends sometimes about,

00:30:37 ►

my goal in life is to have a meaningless life,

00:30:42 ►

where I’m not working toward a goal.

00:30:49 ►

And I said that quote, meaning the final addiction,

00:30:52 ►

the first idea that came to me was,

00:30:54 ►

it just randomly popped in my head,

00:30:57 ►

meaning is suffering,

00:30:59 ►

which to me meant if you’ve achieved your goal,

00:31:02 ►

if you’re like an enlightened being, a Buddhist enlightened being or Dalai Lama or, you know, someone way up there.

00:31:11 ►

And able to just be here now all the time.

00:31:15 ►

You’re in Satori.

00:31:19 ►

There’s nothing you can do that’s meaningful because you’re already there.

00:31:23 ►

But you’re happy.

00:31:25 ►

And that’s so it’s great.

00:31:27 ►

So if something’s meaningful to you, the way I parse meaning is if something’s meaningful,

00:31:33 ►

it’s sort of an advancement toward your goal.

00:31:37 ►

So if this is really mundane.

00:31:43 ►

It’s about money.

00:31:42 ►

this is really mundane.

00:31:44 ►

It’s about money.

00:31:50 ►

I’m trying to invest.

00:31:53 ►

I’m trying to save for my retirement.

00:31:56 ►

And all my money’s in markets and all securities.

00:32:00 ►

And when the stock market goes up, it’s like, oh, that means maybe I can quit work earlier and be retired is my goal,

00:32:09 ►

and then I’ll be happy. Well, that’s not like being here now. That’s like in the future.

00:32:19 ►

And if your experience is, I enjoy this breath I’m taking right now,

00:32:27 ►

regardless of what the stock market is doing,

00:32:31 ►

you have a very fulfilling and meaningless life.

00:32:39 ►

I’ve rambled on a bit.

00:32:40 ►

Is that helpful or any other follow up questions?

00:32:46 ►

Yeah, that’s very helpful actually. I’m still having trouble actually visualizing what you’ve asked us to visualize.

00:32:54 ►

Well that’s because it cannot be visualized. Because visualizing something is form.

00:33:02 ►

I mean by definition it’s impossible to talk about something that has no form.

00:33:08 ►

So another way to say it is be here now.

00:33:15 ►

Really try but really accurate.

00:33:19 ►

Anything else?

00:33:23 ►

Back behind you.

00:33:24 ►

Hi there. else? We’re all back behind you.

00:33:28 ►

Hi there. What you’re kind of saying reminds me of a John Lennon

00:33:29 ►

quote. When he was a child,

00:33:32 ►

a teacher asked him what he wanted to be

00:33:34 ►

when he would grow up. And he said, I want to be happy.

00:33:36 ►

She said, well, you really don’t understand

00:33:37 ►

the question. And his reply

00:33:40 ►

was, well, you don’t understand life.

00:33:42 ►

I mean, what you’re talking about

00:33:44 ►

is a momentary happiness.

00:33:45 ►

If your happiness is just to be breathing and alive and here,

00:33:48 ►

why do you got to worry about money?

00:33:49 ►

You’re going to retire eventually.

00:33:51 ►

Who cares if it happens sooner or later?

00:33:54 ►

Yes, I agree completely.

00:33:56 ►

I think John Lennon got it.

00:33:58 ►

Wow, yeah.

00:33:59 ►

So do I.

00:34:00 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:34:01 ►

And, you know, that’s the problem with words like happy.

00:34:07 ►

I mean, happy, we all know what it means.

00:34:11 ►

And at the same time, it means something different to everybody.

00:34:15 ►

And, you know, growing up in the U.S. in the 50s, you know, leave it to Beaver, they were all happy.

00:34:21 ►

Like, well, yeah, but there’s other kinds of happiness.

00:34:26 ►

You know, when the Dalai Lama talks about happiness,

00:34:29 ►

he’s not talking about, I have a good job and a nice car and my kids all behave.

00:34:35 ►

That’s not what he’s talking about when he says happy.

00:34:39 ►

But, you know, if I’m honest with myself, that’s all I want.

00:34:45 ►

I think happiness pertains to you personally.

00:34:48 ►

My happiness could be different than her happiness versus his and his.

00:34:51 ►

And everybody in this room has a different version of what happiness would be to them.

00:34:55 ►

It’s almost the same as rather than being happy, it’s just to have enough.

00:34:59 ►

Enough to be content with your life.

00:35:01 ►

Right.

00:35:02 ►

Yeah.

00:35:02 ►

This reminds me.

00:35:07 ►

Ten years ago, actually, I was at Burning Man and I was going to be in a camp with, with cool people and then they canceled

00:35:12 ►

and I ended up in a camp where I didn’t know anybody. And I was, it was Wednesday, middle of

00:35:18 ►

the week, and I was sitting in my camp chair. I, I, I fly to Reno and then buy stuff that’s too big for the plane at the store and rent a car and drive up here.

00:35:29 ►

Sitting in my cheap camp chair eating my freeze-dried food from its packet with my spoon.

00:35:35 ►

And it was kind of dusty.

00:35:36 ►

And I looked around and I thought, you know, I am completely content.

00:35:43 ►

I could just live like this forever.

00:35:49 ►

That was my experience.

00:35:50 ►

And I wasn’t seeking that out.

00:35:52 ►

I just noticed, like, wow.

00:35:55 ►

That’s pretty amazing that I’m having this experience of being fully content in the dust,

00:36:01 ►

eating a freeze-dried meal in this camp chair.

00:36:06 ►

I mean, that’s a profound lesson that I didn’t, you know,

00:36:10 ►

by Wednesday, the default world has kind of faded

00:36:13 ►

from everyday repetitive thoughts,

00:36:17 ►

and that was wonderful.

00:36:21 ►

Any other questions?

00:36:24 ►

Pass the microphone over here. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us today. Any other questions? research that you’ve done and I’m curious as to how substances such as MDMA for example may help people therapeutically

00:36:49 ►

Rise to higher levels of

00:36:52 ►

Altered states of consciousnesses or higher levels of awareness, okay

00:37:02 ►

Easy question

00:37:10 ►

easy question uh the the um when when we started giving people to mdma at around 1980 i wrote this little short um thing for the for the clients to to read beforehand to sort of orient for for

00:37:19 ►

what i thought was like a good mindset you know there’s like set and setting and drug are the three main factors in psychedelic experience. And so I thought this was a good mindset to remind people

00:37:30 ►

that they have a choice. And I called it using altered states to experience choice.

00:37:38 ►

And particularly with MDMA, my thought about MDMA was that it blocks the fear response to a perceived emotional threat.

00:37:55 ►

It’s just really hard to be afraid.

00:37:57 ►

You know, if you’re prepared, it’s a good setting, and all that’s lined up.

00:38:02 ►

It’s really hard to be afraid in the MDMA state.

00:38:08 ►

And also, and this is even true with more potent psychedelics like psilocybin or LSD

00:38:15 ►

that really sort of disorient the ego-functioning mind,

00:38:22 ►

you know, the habitual mind, repetitive thoughts, repetitive thought patterns,

00:38:26 ►

circular looping thoughts, it sort of interrupts all that.

00:38:29 ►

And it’s easier, I think, to experience being in the position of having choice,

00:38:34 ►

to point yourself in any direction that you want to move toward.

00:38:40 ►

Because your normal thought patterns and intention patterns are disrupted.

00:38:45 ►

Your habitual life’s disrupted.

00:38:47 ►

And that’s a lesson that can be learned and remembered.

00:38:53 ►

And what I like about MDMA is it’s not so ego-disrupting that you can’t remember what happened.

00:39:03 ►

You know, your normal mind is functioning.

00:39:05 ►

You can remember the thoughts you had.

00:39:07 ►

It’s not like some powerful psychedelic, you know, the next day you say,

00:39:10 ►

I wrote down the secret to life.

00:39:13 ►

This is this.

00:39:15 ►

And it’s just not useful the next day.

00:39:21 ►

But with MDMA, you can learn things and remember like,

00:39:23 ►

okay, I’m talking to my wife or boyfriend or girlfriend about something that’s really scary.

00:39:31 ►

But I talked about it under MDMA, and it wasn’t scary.

00:39:36 ►

And we resolved it and moved on.

00:39:38 ►

And it’s okay to keep communicating like that.

00:39:41 ►

We have a choice to do that.

00:39:42 ►

We have a choice to even try to do that. So that’s how I think, regardless of what

00:39:47 ►

happens or emotional release can happen or trauma release in psychedelic therapy,

00:39:51 ►

just noticing that there’s more choice and more options

00:39:55 ►

to life than the default culture brought us up to believe.

00:40:01 ►

So that’s, does that sort of address what you’re asking?

00:40:05 ►

Okay, good. We have time for one more question

00:40:08 ►

how about you

00:40:10 ►

hi thank you

00:40:14 ►

so something I’ve been

00:40:16 ►

thinking about a lot I’m a woman in

00:40:18 ►

gender studies and one of the

00:40:20 ►

hot topics I guess was as you were

00:40:22 ►

talking about like how happiness was

00:40:24 ►

a thing like in the 1950s type of era,

00:40:27 ►

where we had Virginia Woolf, who was terribly, terribly depressed living in the same type of environment that other women were,

00:40:34 ►

and how it comes up with this idea that happiness is sometimes very superficial.

00:40:38 ►

It’s very much like putting a smile on your face and fake it until you make it.

00:40:43 ►

You know, putting a smile on your face and, you know, fake it till you make it.

00:40:50 ►

And so I think that a prof said to me that was really insightful was that, like, depression is, like, a very useful feeling.

00:40:53 ►

And going into a deep depression is a very sincere emotion.

00:40:58 ►

And sometimes all it means is awakening and realizing the oppression that’s all around you.

00:41:06 ►

And especially, like, within feminism, you find a lot of women who are seen as, like, very negative people and always like, you know, the downer at the party.

00:41:09 ►

But oftentimes it’s because they’re not willing to just be happy.

00:41:13 ►

They’re observing the oppression around them.

00:41:15 ►

And obviously that doesn’t just apply to women.

00:41:17 ►

It applies to all sorts of people and all sorts of different types of oppression.

00:41:20 ►

So I was just wondering, like, I mean, obviously a large part of your speech is obtaining happiness as a level of what your goal should be in life.

00:41:29 ►

I don’t know, like something that was like, during my depression that was really big for me to accept was like, happiness isn’t necessarily a goal and happiness isn’t necessarily a good thing.

00:41:40 ►

And I was just wondering what your comments on that would be.

00:41:43 ►

Yeah, well, I think it gets partly back to the, like, happiness can have so many different meanings.

00:41:49 ►

And I would agree that, you know, I really wanted to eat at this fancy restaurant

00:41:59 ►

because I really like the shrimp they have there and the wine.

00:42:06 ►

And I go there, and I’m eating the shrimp and drinking the wine,

00:42:10 ►

and I’m happy that I’m doing that.

00:42:13 ►

I would call that the superficial happiness.

00:42:16 ►

And then there’s I’m doing my mindfulness meditation,

00:42:22 ►

and finally my mind is quiet.

00:42:27 ►

And I’m aware of this.

00:42:29 ►

I am one with the beingness of the universe,

00:42:34 ►

but you’re not thinking of it that way.

00:42:37 ►

And I’m happy, but not an emotional happiness,

00:42:43 ►

an existential, spiritual happiness.

00:42:48 ►

In terms of depression,

00:42:49 ►

what reminded me of my undergraduate thesis advisor

00:42:54 ►

was the chaplain.

00:42:56 ►

And he said,

00:42:59 ►

depression is the fat hand of God

00:43:03 ►

squeezing you so hard that you can’t look anywhere else except to God for help.

00:43:14 ►

God in the abstract sense.

00:43:17 ►

And, I mean, I believe that, I like that metaphor for depression, but, you know, I’ve felt, we’ve all felt depressed at times,

00:43:25 ►

and I’ve worked with patients who are really incredibly depressed,

00:43:30 ►

and it’s really just cognitively very difficult for a depressed person to do anything

00:43:37 ►

or make a choice or point themselves in any direction.

00:43:41 ►

It’s really, really hard to just be aware that there is a choice.

00:43:46 ►

I mean, you know, clinical depression, the brain biology is different, you know,

00:43:51 ►

and it’s so, it’s like intense pain.

00:43:54 ►

It just sucks up all your attention, and it’s just really hard to have a thought outside of that.

00:44:00 ►

And, you know, I don’t have a good answer for someone in words like what to do

00:44:06 ►

when you feel really depressed except you know I just try to be with them and

00:44:11 ►

not get depressed and have have them experience that that that I am here we

00:44:16 ►

are here I’m real and that I’m something in their reality that is not depressed

00:44:20 ►

and negative okay thank you very much.

00:44:33 ►

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon, where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.

00:44:36 ►

Are you aware that you are aware?

00:44:39 ►

This is something that I’ve been trying to focus on each day for many years now.

00:44:45 ►

And it isn’t easy, at least for me.

00:44:48 ►

Years ago, when I was on the motivational speaking circuit,

00:44:52 ►

one of my fellow rainmakers was a man named Jim Rohn.

00:44:55 ►

In fact, he’s still out there motivating people yet today.

00:44:58 ►

Well, we all had our own little handles for our talks back then,

00:45:03 ►

and Jim’s is still my favorite.

00:45:05 ►

It went,

00:45:12 ►

wherever you are, be there, which as you can see is the title that I used for this podcast.

00:45:19 ►

And at one time, I even had that phrase inscribed on a brass plaque that sat on my desk so that I could notice it throughout the day. Wherever you are, be there. Five simple words that can actually

00:45:26 ►

change your life if only you can keep that in focus at all times. And not like me, constantly

00:45:33 ►

find my mind wandering off on all sorts of tangents. That’s one reason why I enjoyed programming so

00:45:38 ►

much. It was something that completely captured my consciousness and didn’t let my thoughts stray.

00:45:44 ►

something that completely captured my consciousness and didn’t let my thoughts stray.

00:45:48 ►

And I’m finding that writing novels is exactly the opposite.

00:45:52 ►

I’ll be working on a particular scene, and before I realize it,

00:45:58 ►

my mind has wandered off on some tangential backstory that makes the character more interesting,

00:46:00 ►

but for which there is no room in the story.

00:46:05 ►

Then, that realization might lead me off on other flights of fancy before I get back to work.

00:46:11 ►

Maybe that doesn’t happen to you, but sometimes it sure is a problem for me to stay focused on where I am and what I’m doing. Now here’s something that I found, however, that not only helps to

00:46:17 ►

focus you in the present, but is actually fun to experiment with. Now it only will work if you’ve

00:46:23 ►

seen the movie Being John Malkovich,

00:46:25 ►

and if you’ve seen it, you know that much of the movie takes place with the camera seemingly inside

00:46:31 ►

Malkovich’s head and looking out through his eyes, as if you were riding along inside his skull and

00:46:37 ►

watching his life from there. Now one trick in doing that, I found, is something that is taught

00:46:43 ►

about lucid dreaming, and that is to look at your hands to remind you that this is a dream.

00:46:48 ►

And in the right frame of mind, you would be amazed at how, once this technique is perfected,

00:46:53 ►

that you will actually feel as if you are coming awake in a dream, this dream of a human life.

00:46:59 ►

I think that you’ll find it quite interesting if you try being that camera inside your own skull.

00:47:06 ►

Sometimes I find it interesting and revealing to think of whatever is actually me as being a

00:47:13 ►

recording device inside the skull of Lorenzo and watching what he’s up to. Then I try to

00:47:19 ►

consciously become my own walk-in, if you know what that is, and take over this biological avatar that

00:47:26 ►

other avatars recognize as Lorenzo. But being an enlightened being, I decide to do my best

00:47:32 ►

to control that avatar in a more enlightened manner than its autopilot is currently allowing.

00:47:39 ►

Hopefully these twisted ideas of mine haven’t completely negated Dr. Greer’s wonderful talk.

00:47:46 ►

As I’ve said before, the way I sometimes see things isn’t necessarily the best way.

00:47:51 ►

I’m only throwing them out to get you thinking about these things on your own.

00:47:54 ►

Think for yourself and question authority. All authority.

00:47:59 ►

That’s the bottom line for a person who is a psychedelic thinker.

00:48:03 ►

Now, one of the things that I hope you picked up from this talk was the part where George was talking about what he thinks of as his core awareness or the essence of who he is beyond the attachment to his body.

00:48:15 ►

This is something that experienced psychonauts usually take for granted after a while. But to the uninitiated, what is important to note is that even in extremely deep

00:48:26 ►

psychedelic states that I’ve been in, I’ve always been me, the person I’m constantly talking to all

00:48:32 ►

the time in my head. I’ve never lost the sense of being me. Now, that may not make sense to some

00:48:39 ►

people, but if you’ve ever had a plus four or even a plus five experience, you know exactly what I mean.

00:48:49 ►

So don’t let all of this loose talk about the so-called ego loss lead you to think that psychedelics cause a person to lose their sense of identity.

00:48:55 ►

In fact, it’s just the opposite, because it is in deep entheospace

00:48:59 ►

that we come face to face with the essence of who we really are at that very moment.

00:49:06 ►

Now, where was I? Oh yeah, I wanted to say something about what George in his talk said was

00:49:11 ►

the mundane question of money and retirement. Now, if you remember, the person asking the

00:49:19 ►

question that prompted his discussion said something like, why do you have to worry about

00:49:24 ►

money? You’re going to

00:49:25 ►

retire eventually. Who cares if it happens sooner or later? And for what it’s worth, I am now in

00:49:32 ►

complete agreement with that person. But back when I was in my 40s and 50s, I didn’t think that way.

00:49:38 ►

I was always letting those retirement planning people convince me that I had to keep working harder than ever so as to have enough money to retire on. Well, in the summer of 1999, I took a six-month leave of

00:49:51 ►

absence from a really fun and well-paying job in order to spend some time out here on the West

00:49:56 ►

Coast. And as you probably know, I never returned to either my job or the East Coast. In essence, I accidentally retired.

00:50:06 ►

And without having that nest egg that the retirement planners had me so worried about.

00:50:12 ►

What happened was that I finally realized that I didn’t actually need all of the stuff and trips I’d been spending my money on.

00:50:18 ►

Over time, my life has now become quite simple, but by far, it is the most enjoyable and rewarding part of all my years.

00:50:28 ►

But since we’re on the subject of money, I’m going to once again try to get you thinking about some incredible technology that can be used to create programmable money.

00:50:38 ►

And if you’re also a fan of Joe Rogan’s podcast, you already know what’s coming next.

00:50:43 ►

I’m going to once again, and only briefly,

00:50:45 ►

say a little something more about Bitcoin. First of all, if you haven’t already heard Joe Rogan’s

00:50:51 ►

podcast number 446 with Andreas Antonopoulos, I urge you to listen to it right now. I’ve read

00:50:58 ►

dozens of articles about Bitcoin, and I’ve watched probably 20 or 30 YouTube videos about it,

00:51:04 ►

but the conversation

00:51:05 ►

between Joe and Andreas is significantly more enlightening than all of that earlier research

00:51:10 ►

that I did. Now, a couple of podcasts back, you heard me say that I haven’t been this excited

00:51:15 ►

about a technology since 1992, when the web was first introduced. Back then, I was still working

00:51:22 ►

in the technology industry, and so I had a good understanding of how revolutionary the web truly was.

00:51:27 ►

It was more than a gut feeling that time.

00:51:30 ►

However, this time, I have to admit that until I listened to Joe and Andreas talk about Bitcoin,

00:51:36 ►

well, 99% of my feeling about Bitcoin being as important as a browser was purely a gut feeling.

00:51:42 ►

But now that I’ve listened to someone with the technical

00:51:45 ►

expertise to understand Bitcoin technology and also be able to explain it to us less technical

00:51:52 ►

souls, I’m even more convinced that 20 years from now you’re going to say that by far, by far,

00:51:58 ►

the most important thing that you ever got from listening to these podcasts was me trying to push you into becoming a Bitcoin user as soon as possible. Now I first played around with Bitcoin in 2011 or so but

00:52:12 ►

I gave it up because well it seemed like a $30 or so coin couldn’t be spent in many places and

00:52:18 ►

wasn’t worth the effort. Now today it’d be nice to have a 100 or so of those old $30 co in s b ec a u se t h e y^{'} re w or t h o v er$ 800 each and can be used at over 40,000 businesses, including cab drivers in Germany, I understand.

00:52:32 ►

Now in case you haven’t listened to that podcast yet, or if you are going to listen to it again, like me, there are two things that I think are of utmost importance here.

00:52:43 ►

One, Bitcoin is a technology.

00:52:45 ►

Digital currency is just one program that can run on it.

00:52:49 ►

Just like your browser can do a lot of different things, not just your banking.

00:52:53 ►

And two, of the 7 billion people on this planet today,

00:52:58 ►

only about 1 billion have access to the global economy through banks.

00:53:02 ►

Many of the other 6 billion, however, have to cope with rapidly inflating cash.

00:53:07 ►

2 million of those bankless people, by the way,

00:53:09 ►

have cell phones that can use bitcoins.

00:53:12 ►

So, for example, if you’re a musician

00:53:15 ►

and you want to sell your music in Africa

00:53:17 ►

without having to set up a credit card system

00:53:19 ►

that charges you monthly fees plus interest on every transaction,

00:53:23 ►

well, you can sell your music directly to your fans and receive Bitcoin directly from them.

00:53:28 ►

No middle persons, no bank fees.

00:53:31 ►

Okay, I’ll stop now, but one day you’ll be kicking yourself if you don’t look into Bitcoin today.

00:53:37 ►

Enough said.

00:53:39 ►

So, I guess that I’d better get to these announcements that I’ve been putting off for a couple of weeks.

00:53:45 ►

First of all, if you haven’t already heard enough of me,

00:53:48 ►

there are several podcasts that I’ve been interviewed on lately.

00:53:52 ►

One of them is the comedian Rosie Tran’s show, which is titled Out of the Box Podcast.

00:53:57 ►

Also, I was on Paul McCollum’s Gonzo Radio Podcast back in November,

00:54:02 ►

and a couple of weeks ago I was on Overthinking with Brad Allen.

00:54:06 ►

So those are, I think, my most recent public conversations. And another thing that I’d like

00:54:12 ►

to announce is about a new festival that I’ll be attending. And it’s a festival that is being held

00:54:19 ►

near Tucson, Arizona this coming April 25th through the 27th. It’s called Arizona Wild Wild West Festival,

00:54:27 ►

and I’ll put the link in today’s program notes, but you can easily remember it. It’s

00:54:32 ►

azwildwildwestfest.com. azwildwildwestfest.com. As you might have noticed, I’ve more or less

00:54:43 ►

been a hermit since June of 2012 when I spoke at Esalen.

00:54:47 ►

Since then, I’ve turned down several offers to speak, mainly because I’ve become weary of traveling.

00:54:53 ►

But when Brian Hewitt contacted me about this new festival that he’s helping to organize,

00:54:58 ►

well, I didn’t want to turn him down since he’s always been so good about being one of our Planque Norte speakers at the Burning Man festivals.

00:55:05 ►

So what I’m going to do at this festival is to host the very first live sessions of the Psychedelic Salon.

00:55:12 ►

And I’ll be telling you more about this as we get a little closer to the date.

00:55:16 ►

But if you’re thinking about attending yourself, you might want to get a ticket soon

00:55:20 ►

as they’re limiting attendance to only 1,500 people,

00:55:23 ►

which will make it a really nice size for finding a few of the others.

00:55:28 ►

And I don’t want you to think that the salons are going to be anywhere close

00:55:32 ►

to the main event at this festival.

00:55:34 ►

Not only are you going to get to interact with some artists of world renown,

00:55:38 ►

the music lineup for this festival alone is going to make the trip worthwhile for me.

00:55:43 ►

So why don’t you surf on over to their website

00:55:45 ►

and check it out. I’d really like to meet you in person someday and maybe this will be the event

00:55:50 ►

where that happens. And finally I’d like to let you know that this coming Monday evening February 10th

00:55:57 ►

at 7 30 p.m eastern time I’ll be doing a live interview with Bill and Nancy Burns on their future theater radio program.

00:56:06 ►

Their program is on the Inception Radio Network.

00:56:09 ►

And as you may know, Nancy is also the editor of UFO Magazine.

00:56:15 ►

And I’ve been on their program once before and really enjoyed it.

00:56:18 ►

So I’ll put the link to their program in today’s program notes as well, in case you can join us.

00:56:45 ►

Thank you. to in the program notes that you know you can find via psychedelicsalon.us. And while it’s been quite some time since I’ve listened to music on a mushroom trip, and should I ever take another one,

00:56:51 ►

I intend to try the full 35-minute long track of this free jazz meets electronica vibe. So give it

00:56:59 ►

a listen and see what you think. And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space. Be well, my friends. The The world is not here on our report. The products and people we talk about are such a lovely thing.

00:57:48 ►

My brother Daniel and I have been talking about the great new conservation of the species of birds and plants

00:57:55 ►

for hundreds of years now.

00:57:57 ►

And I think that’s what we need to do.

00:57:59 ►

We need to do a good job of protecting the species.

00:58:01 ►

I have been pointing out the difference in the way we treat birds and plants. The next flight is going to be on the I wish you a happy birthday. My name is Arne. And I am a member of the Fire Tribe,

00:58:26 ►

which we use to run development and sharing.

00:58:30 ►

I’m your host, Amy.

00:58:32 ►

I’m a doctor.

00:58:34 ►

I’m here to help you in the right direction.

00:58:36 ►

I’m a physical condition.

00:58:40 ►

And I wish you the best of luck.

00:58:43 ►

From the Fire Tribe. I wish you a happy birthday. The language in there is so beautiful. From high up, I can’t get to the bottom of the ocean.