679 - The Psilocybin Connection

Program Notes

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Guest speaker: Jahan Khamsehzadeh

Today’s podcast features a conversation with author Jahan Khamsehzadeh, whose recent book, The Psilocybin Connection, is a significant addition to our understanding of how psychedelic substances have aided humans throughout history and how they continue to do so.

The book’s publisher says that it is, “A comprehensive guide to psilocybin mushrooms and their impact on our psychology, biology, and social development. … Blending the selected experiences of nine people’s transformative experiences, his own psychedelic awakening, and the most comprehensive synthesis of psilocybin research to date, Khamsehzadeh’s Psilocybin Connection moves our understanding of the psychedelic mushroom forward toward a fresh, hopeful, and exciting future.”

Transcript

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Three-dimensional, transforming, musical, linguistic objects.

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Alpha and Omega.

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Greetings from cyberdelic space.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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Well, it’s been quite a while since my last podcast, and I’ll spare you the minute details, but here are the headlines.

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Since April, my wife and I have had COVID. Our landlord sold our apartment and we were forced to move.

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Then, just when we were almost unpacked and moved in to our new apartment here,

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we learned that we now have to vacate for most of a week while they

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tent the apartment for termites. There’s more, but you get the idea, I’m sure. Nonetheless,

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here we are, and it’s time to get things rolling once again. Now, to begin with, I want to apologize

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to Jahan, who is our guest author today, and I’m really sorry for being so tardy in getting this

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podcast out. Charles told

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me about Jahan’s book, well, just before I came down with COVID, but I at least got to read the

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table of contents and was really excited about visiting with him because I had a question that

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I’d like to ask him. Then life got in the way, and that resulted in this long delay because this

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conversation was actually recorded last May. Now the conversation

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we’re about to listen to was actually recorded during one of our live salons and in case you

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aren’t aware of it, when the pandemic began I switched from doing regular podcasts to hosting

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live salons on Mondays and Thursdays. For the first year of the pandemic we did two on Monday

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and two on Thursday. Now we’ve cut back to just one per day. At 6 30 p pandemic, we did two on Monday and two on Thursday.

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Now we’ve cut back to just one per day.

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At 6.30pm Pacific Time on Monday and at 11.30am Pacific Time on Thursday.

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The Thursday time is early so that our fellow salonners in Europe can join us without having to get up in the middle of the night.

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I post the links to these live salons ahead of time on Patreon and Discord,

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so you can just go to our Discord server and get the link without having to be a Patreon donor.

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A small group of our fellow saloners, however, have been supporting me on Patreon throughout the pandemic,

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and for them, I also post recordings of these live salons that they can download and listen to on their own time. Right now there are about 150 of these recordings on Patreon that cover everything from how to

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prepare certain mushrooms for maximum potential to THCO and many topics in between. And to give

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you a little idea of some of the interesting characters who show up for these salons,

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I’ve included part of the Q&A session here with questions from three of the people

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who were also on the Zoom conference with Charles and Jahan.

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One of them is a professional photographer who is into freediving.

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Another is an American writer and world traveler who lives in England.

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And the first person you’ll hear asking a question is a world explorer

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who has tripped on acid with Dr. Albert

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Hoffman, and more than once. We have an interesting batch of characters in the salon, I think.

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So let’s get on with today’s podcast, and I’ll be back with some comments after we listen to

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this conversation. So our guest today is Jahan Hamsazadeh, who just wrote this awesome book called The Psilocybin Connection,

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which is available everywhere. And it’s psychedelics, the transformation of consciousness

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and evolution on the planet. And, you know, as a book lover, the first thing I noticed,

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my first real takeaway after finishing this book was, what a bibliography. You know, my first real takeaway after finishing this book was what a bibliography, you know,

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you really have in, in the body of this book, um, synthesized, you know, a tremendous amount of,

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of information about, uh, about psychedelics is out there. So can you walk me through some of

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your journey and what your mission for this book is? Cause it feels like you’re really laying a

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marker down that, you know, we’re now in a new decade of psychedelic research and conversation and uh you know your book seems to be aspiring to

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be a starting point thank you yeah that was part of the intention for it to be a platform or like

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a backbone for people to build off of um i read terence mckenna’s food of the gods at 19 i’m 38

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now and so i’ve had about 20 years working with his uh stony

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hypothesis and after i was in academia the entire time um there was not a better theory i had come

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across describing the emergence of humanity and i ended up getting my master’s in consciousness

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transformation my doctors in philosophy cosmology consciousness so i was tracking evolution both in

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terms of consciousness and biological, you know,

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complexity. And I was surprised that the theory hadn’t gotten bigger, or gotten more notoriety. And the last few years, Paul Stamets has been talking about it more. And Joe Rogan has also

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been saying some stuff. But about five or six years ago, I got became really clear that it was

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probably the best idea I’ve ever come across.

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And that’s a big statement.

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I had just been finished at that time doing a year-long comp exam for my doctoral program focusing on the biggest ideas in Western history from the Greeks until now.

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So I had been studying philosophy for a very long time, and that was, again, part of my doctorate, and my bachelor’s was in philosophy.

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And for me, Terrence’s idea offered quite a bit again

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filling the missing piece of how humanity evolved because from the big bang till now we have we can

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get most of the pieces of how we got here but we don’t know how we emerge from more private forms

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of humanity and i think his theory you know that we evolved because of symbiotic relationship with

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psilocybin mushroom fills in pretty much all the gaps. And in the 20 years of looking at it, I haven’t come across

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any contradiction that holds, not in science, not in philosophy, not in any kind of rhetorical

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argument. And what it kind of leads us first, it kind of helps fill in the identity of how we got

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here. It kind of feels, I think, a big trauma that we have of not in the identity of how we got here it kind of feels i think a big

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trauma that we have not knowing our history and how we’ve arrived but its significance is huge

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because of what psilocybin does you know i think it can kind of become also a backboard for the

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psychedelic uh movement uh by claiming that this is what first made us human and the psilocybin

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as a lot of us know aside from just expanding consciousness in general, creates a deep sense of empathy and ecological awareness.

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So chapter three was kind of focused on ecology, and it was inspired by the work of Richard Doyle, who wrote the book Sex, Plants, and Evolution of the Noosphere.

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It’s called Darwin’s Pharmacy.

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And he read thousands of trip reports, and he deduced that the main psychedelic insight

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is the participant realizes they’re part of a vast interconnected living system and they should

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be re-termed ecodelics. So very congruent with McKenna’s ideas, it seems that these psychedelics,

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especially those common compounds found in nature like psilocybin, kind of help us become aware of

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the ecosystem and are here to create a state of homeostasis.

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And so I felt by kind of leading us back to this main identity of how we’ve arrived,

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we can actually lead to a more sustainable world and increasing creativity, you know,

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increased creativity that can lead to art, to the sciences, to technology and help fully move our evolution forward. Yeah. One of the, one of the really interesting elements of the book is that while you acknowledge a lot of the value of guide work, you seem to be speak a little bit to what some of the, what some

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of your views on the broad implications of mainstream acceptance of psychedelics are.

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Yeah. I don’t think we’ve come close to really fleshing out how beneficial they are. You know,

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we’ve been looking at things like depression, addiction, and anxiety. But we haven’t studied

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so much, you know, the amount of say spiritual and

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cognitive and empathic developments you know so i think they are here they can help the vast

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majority of people maybe at least 90 of the population uh my pretty much full-time work

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is as a guide i lead legal psilocybin ceremonies in jamaica i’ve gone through many different uh

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guide trainings and so about 70 of the people come in because they’re in pain, you know, so

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there’s this impulse inside because they’ve tried all the other methods of therapy and medicine,

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and they’ve come to this and it’s, it’s helpful for about 80% of them. You know, we found that

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it helps people 80% with treatment resistant depression, and near end of life anxiety,

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and so on. But this they come in because they’re in pain, but their lives

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transform radically overall. So it’s not that they just heal the pain. For me, at the core of

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this kind of psychedelic therapy work is the transformation of identity. And so often with

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depression is a sense of low self-esteem. I don’t like myself. I’m alienated. I don’t belong.

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It’s a constant internal beating down of the system that comes from this fragmented view that I’m separate from everything and everybody else.

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And this quickly heals that, I think, by unconditioning our social kind of identity of what we’ve kind of created in this culture.

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And it helps us see our deep interconnection, ultimately our unity.

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That’s just another way of saying unity, that we’re ultimately one.

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connection, ultimately our unity. That’s just another way of saying unity, that we’re ultimately one. And that goes far to say that at our core identity, we are love, which kind of, again,

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heals this deep sense of fragmentation. So once people’s sense of self shifts inside and also the

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paradigm and worldview, they only not heal, but they transform really fast. Just a few sessions

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in the course of a year kind of catap catapults them forward dramatically can you speak a bit about what it takes to get into being a full-time guide yeah so many routes

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forward um the best one is to go get trained to become a therapist you know which which requires

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a lot it’s going to graduate school and then becoming an mft and then doing on top of that

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psychedelic guide training there was other routes possible.

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The school of consciousness medicine that’s in hiatus right now was putting

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one forward. I know there’s other trainings coming up in Oregon.

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I just became a consultant for synthesis.

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So synthesis had been running psilocybin retreats in the Netherlands for a

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while. They were one of the first sites.

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And they just started a very

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comprehensive, I think 18 month guide program. There’s nine different modules, but you also,

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some of it involves going on a retreat into the Netherlands and working with psilocybin.

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And for theirs, you don’t have to be a therapist. You know, they hope you have some kind of,

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kind of a background that was more oriented towards healing before coming into this practice, but they’re willing to train people.

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So I would say it’s a deep commitment.

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And once you’re getting trained, it’s good to be in supervision and build community around it.

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I think it’s nice to come in as like this is a lifetime practice and to take it very seriously.

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People’s deepest traumas can come up, right?

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So you have to be ready to hold the worst hell and agony as traumas can come up, right? So you have to be ready to

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hold the worst hell and agony as well as the deepest bliss, right? You’re creating a state

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where as Dan Groff, the psychedelic researcher would say, these are holotropic states of

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consciousness, states that move towards wholeness. So anything that’s repressed can come up,

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including maybe one in four people could be deep sexual trauma, right? So you have to really kind of be ready, sensitive, and empathic enough to hold that level of a container,

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which requires ultimately just doing a lot of self-work.

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Aside from the training, it’s constant self-work.

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And who should be a guide?

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There’s a lot of people that talk about this aspiration, but one of the things I liked a lot in the book is that you cited Eleanor Ott,

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who says, the challenge for the new shamans today, if indeed there should be new shamans,

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is to maintain a strong personal ethical balance free of self-delusion. This requires wisdom and

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knowledge and a lifetime commitment to awesome responsibility. For some few, this may be

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possible. For most, it is better to use their abilities in a more contained but equally

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effective ways as doctors, psychotherapists, teachers, artists, writers, and priests.

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So, you know, there she’s really describing that if you have a relationship with the medicines

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and are called to help people, there are many paths open to you beyond being a guide or a

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psychedelic therapist. So given the degree of specialty that and empathy that’s required that

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you’re talking about, who do you feel really should be called to this work? And what should

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you be asking yourself to kind of self-select? Is this the path for me with the medicine or is

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another path better suited for me with the medicine? As you were kind of saying, I think

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we all have our place in the movements, regardless of our skill or background, there’s a place for you, right?

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And so often the idea of a guide comes up because people – there’s roles that don’t even exist yet, right?

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So I think people can come in with whatever talent they have to find their niche.

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As far as for being a guide, I think, honestly, there’s a general just natural disposition.

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People that have wanted to be either therapists or teachers

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or healers. And so there’s a sensitivity and attunement to others pain, and just a deep sense

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of care. So much of the work is just sitting there for like six hours in just presence with a person.

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And so if that’s hard for you, and if it’s, there’s not this large, natural, just compassion,

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it’s might not be helpful for you or that

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human right so it’s a kind of a deep devotion in that moment to another human being um that being

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said i think the biggest bottleneck moving forward for say psychedelic therapy and psychedelics are

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so much larger than just therapy um is having trained individuals. So the demand is so high. Like

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for our Jamaica retreat, I think there’s 2000 people on the wait list. I know guys across

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the country were full, right? So where the bottom of the neck is, is having more trained people.

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And so we’re actually needing more people in the field. The demand is much larger than the supply.

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field. The demand is much larger than the supply. That being said, we also need well-trained people.

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And not everybody can afford or have access to a well-trained person. So part of the truth I’ve been sitting with is people in underprivileged communities and minorities won’t have the

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finances or the access to high-skilled individuals. So what do you do? So I’ve been working with a

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group called silo health

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the last couple of years, and I think in three or four weeks, releasing this free online sitter

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program where it’s a four hour training, free online, all prerecorded where people can have

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enough of a skillset just to sit for each other because they can’t afford thousands of dollars to

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go have a skilled psychedelic journey. And once we move towards legalization, it’s probably going to cost $5, 000 t o$ 15,000.

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So again, it’s not accessible.

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And so this work, I think a lot of us believe, is part of just our human rights.

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And so we need to get enough skill sets to enough people so we can begin to heal each other.

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each other. And to what extent should somebody who is psychedelic curious be aspiring to work with a guide or a sitter versus pursuing a peer group or even doing it for themselves?

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Where are the boundaries and thresholds that a curious person should be thinking about in their own approach to this?

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Does everybody really need a guide?

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Not need.

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What I’ve come to believe is it’s the optimal experience to have a well-trained guide.

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Just like doing self-therapy is not as good as having a well-trained therapist, right?

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You can just go further with somebody else that knows this territory. And the whole time there is to take care of you.

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That being said, as I just mentioned, it might not be accessible for everybody,

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but it is the optimal approach. There’s a sense that you can go a lot deeper because

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the main thing that holds us back generally in the psychedelic experience is fear.

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And so you have somebody, hopefully that you feel safer with them in the room than them not in the room. So they can calm you down, help you feel okay, hold your hand.

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You can process anything that comes up. And sometimes something that you can get in a loop

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stuck by yourself for five hours, that loop can take maybe just five minutes with a well-trained

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person because they’re here to reassure you and help you move forward. That being said, as I just

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mentioned, I don’t think it’s very accessible to lots of people for many reasons, including it’s hard to

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find a guide, just period. And then we’re doing things, you know, in Jamaica, Netherlands. And so

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like people have to go to entire other countries. And so the next best response is to find a peer

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group. You know, I’d recommend for somebody starting out, my recommendation isn’t to go at

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it alone. It’s to, again, to find a sitter,

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at least somebody you trust or somebody that’s well-experienced to have this experience with,

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because anything can come up. And that anything can come up as part of the gift. Like anything

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can come up. It could be exciting and transformative. It’s stuff that you would

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never imagine could come up, but it can also be very difficult experiences that you couldn’t

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have planned for. So again, somebody there to take care of you, I think, can be very instrumental, especially the first several times.

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Can you carry us into what goes on for you when you’re in a space where you’re guiding someone? What happens to your quality of attention? What are you watching for? How do you show up in this space?

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What are you watching for? How do you show up in this space?

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Yeah, that’s a great question. So I had a huge life changing psychedelic experience at 18 that really kind of set the course of my life.

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Right. So I’ve been working with these substances now for 20 years and including the development and psychology of us as humans.

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And what I’ve come to believe is the deepest experience we can have is of oneness.

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And this oneness has many representations. It could be oneness just within our being, a oneness within our family system, with a partner, with the planet, with an ecosystem, or just with the universe or God. creating a sense of wholeness. And so, because I feel that’s what our psyche is trying to do

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every time I’m here to help facilitate that process to point it out. There’s a deep,

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a great training I took aside from, I took this multi-year training of somatic psychotherapy

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called Hakomi, which is amazing. And then I took an additional training with a guy that formed

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Hakomi, John Eisman. And he, he, after 20 years of working with Hakomi, he thought there was a

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shortcut and he called this training called the recreation of the self, that ultimately we’re trying to form this whole identity and sense of wholeness has many qualities towards it, including preciousness, full self-esteem, love, safety.

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So these are essential soul qualities that are under the egoic structure.

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So if we look at, for example, Maslow’s hierarchy, the bottom part are safety, then love and belonging, then connection, then self-esteem.

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So a lot of people come in working on self-esteem, especially in this country,

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because we’re not in war generally. So we’re not focused on just safety. We’re trying to feel good

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about ourselves. And once you have enough self-esteem, it’s like the caterpillar turning

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into the butterfly, there’s self-actualization and then transcendence, which is helping others.

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And so for me, it’s helping people to move up the pyramids.

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So a lot of it’s a lot of the damage we’ve gotten is around self-esteem.

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So again, that you are loved, that you are okay, that you’re all enough.

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Until you feel like you’re enough, you can’t really fulfill your potential.

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And that sense of deep identity can’t solidify.

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So I’m kind of here to kind of nudge and point them into that direction until it solidifies.

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to kind of nudge and point them into that direction until it solidifies.

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And one of the things that you talk about in one of the latter sections of the book is doing some fieldwork in Mexico, engaging with the Mazatec traditions.

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And you’ve been speaking today about doing work in Jamaica.

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And you had this really wonderful observation.

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Well, I thought it was a wonderful observation that moving into the psychedelic space may be a path for indigenous communities to reclaim power and agency.

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And I’m wondering if you can kind of unpack the lessons that you’ve attained in working with indigenous healers and working with indigenous knowledge and integrating that into a practice that also integrates Western training.

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Totally. Great. Thanks.

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Part of my background was training for a few years with Francois Borzat, who wrote the book Consciousness Medicine,

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and I went on there to Mexico with her to train with the Mazatec people.

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My mom was born in Mexico. I’m half Mexican, I’m half Iranian. And, you know, it was

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kind of just sad the way kind of grew up where there was a bit of, say, shame around being

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Mexican, but it was kind of seen lower then because that’s the kind of culture, you know,

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we can just see Donald Trump’s presidency of keeping people on the south down in the border

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and so on. And so there’s quite a transformation, especially as I became more aware of the

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psychedelic lineages, not just in Mexico,

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but just in all kind of Native American cultures and Mexico being Native American. These are just

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people that came here about 20,000 years ago. And studying the deep history as I did my dissertation

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on mushroom work was seeing that when the Europeans had come in the 1500s, the clergy,

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many of them had wrote down of massive mushroom use so we know the the mayans for example

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going back a few thousand years left about 200 different mushroom stones but later after them

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the aztecs were the largest empire in the area that the the conquistadors really kind of came

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in contact with and they write down at the inauguration of montezuma ii their empire

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probably the most powerful person in the Americas at the time,

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at his inauguration, everybody’s taking psilocybin mushrooms. And at all these major ceremonies,

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they bring out psilocybin mushrooms as part of political affairs. And there’s also part of family healing and divination and so on. There was about 60 million people in the Americas at the

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time when the conquistadors had come over to the Americas. 60 million. We’re talking about

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this place, the North, Central, South Americaica was deeply inhabited and i point out lots of artifacts in my book but

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there’s other books called like the long trip by paul devereaux that really brings down all the

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archaeology of how widespread psychedelic use had been in the americas and all around the world

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right so out of that 60 million people that were here 90 of them had died when the europeans came

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you know there’s it was

00:22:05 ►

the largest genocide and ethnocide in human history a lot of it was just because the disease because

00:22:09 ►

the europeans came about disease but they also changed the language of this area and the religion

00:22:14 ►

of this area right so all the central and south america for the most part speak spanish they had

00:22:20 ►

numerous languages of their own and belief systems and temples.

00:22:29 ►

And the clergy wrote down that they were ordered to eradicate all of that.

00:22:33 ►

And they also wrote down specifically also mushroom use.

00:22:35 ►

So that was very well documented. So that whole practice that existed throughout these continents was purposely and intentionally erased.

00:22:44 ►

The Mazatecs survived and from my understanding

00:22:47 ►

probably for three different reasons um they live high up in the altitude mountains in oaxaca so

00:22:52 ►

there’s a remote area there’s no reason to go there unless you wanted to go visit them

00:22:55 ►

um they’re a matriarchal culture so it’s largely women that held the ceremonies and the europeans

00:23:01 ►

coming from a patriarchal culture thought people in positions of power like the shamans would be men so they killed a lot of the men um but the ceremonies

00:23:09 ►

kept going underground mostly within family systems the women work the women’s hold space

00:23:13 ►

for families mostly in their homes so it’s kind of just kept quiet and the third is that they did

00:23:18 ►

integrate christianity so if you go over there to visit the mazatex it’s largely um christian

00:23:23 ►

iconography most specifically the Mother Mary.

00:23:25 ►

There’s still a matriarchal culture, so they kind of pray to the Mother Mary and so on.

00:23:28 ►

So this is one of the reasons they continue to exist, and it’s because they continue to exist that we had gained information of the mushrooms.

00:23:35 ►

It’s Gordon Watson going there in 1955 with Mary Sabina, having the mushroom experience, writing about it in Life magazine in 1957 that our country and culture at large became aware of psychedelics.

00:23:46 ►

LSD had been in the background with a few elite groups of artists and scientists, but this was a widespread article that came out and everybody became aware of it.

00:23:53 ►

So it’s because these lineages had still barely existed after this large ethnic side that our whole planet became largely aware of this medicine.

00:24:05 ►

largely aware of this medicine so i think that’s a way before we can reclaim just to finish that part of like it’s a part of the identity that i think could be reclaimed across this these few

00:24:10 ►

continents that i think had been kind of pushed away and what is your what is your experience in

00:24:15 ►

working with uh within the tradition and and going down there for the field work of how that community is carrying the medicine forward into the world.

00:24:30 ►

And is there, how do I say this?

00:24:33 ►

They have every reason to not want to help us Westerners.

00:24:35 ►

So how do they feel about our interest?

00:24:37 ►

When I was there, they were delighted,

00:24:41 ►

which was a really nice just response.

00:24:44 ►

When Marie Sabina had been doing this work,

00:24:46 ►

and as I kind of share in the book, and Michael pollan i think maybe touches on it a bit so by the late 1960s and early 70s there was a

00:24:52 ►

huge wave of you know we can call them just hippies but also just thrill seekers that went down there

00:24:56 ►

to um huatla de gemenez the main area of the mazatecs and destroyed the town pretty much um

00:25:02 ►

at any moment there’d be 70 to 80 just pilgrimage people from

00:25:05 ►

across the world just camped out. And some of them were very respectful, but some of them were

00:25:10 ►

there for a high. And the community got so upset, they ended up burning down Maria Sabina’s house

00:25:16 ►

because they kind of shared this medicine with the rest of the world and it kind of invited the

00:25:20 ►

rest of the world in and they thought their culture was going to be destroyed. So we have,

00:25:24 ►

you know, three to four decades now after that.

00:25:27 ►

So Maria Sabina, whose house was burnt down, Nash has a national holiday in that area.

00:25:32 ►

They celebrate her birthday and hundreds of people come out and give her a parade.

00:25:35 ►

And now she’s almost reached the status of a saint there.

00:25:37 ►

So as soon as you enter the city town, there’s a 12 foot statue of Maria Sabina standing on top of a mushroom.

00:25:43 ►

Right. So they’ve really come to see this very differently and if you go into the city center there’s 12 large mushroom murals and the

00:25:49 ►

cop cars have little mushrooms on them and they’ve really kind of embraced this outwardly as a part

00:25:53 ►

of their culture and they get very happy when people come now because there’s it’s nothing like

00:25:58 ►

before uh while i was there i saw aside from our group just one other worst westerner and we’re all coming to

00:26:05 ►

learn like the heat that person came to help people and stay at their house for a few months

00:26:09 ►

and clean and take care of things and see i came down with a teacher that’s had a relationship with

00:26:13 ►

them for 30 years and she comes down all the time and she knows lots of the locals and we come and

00:26:17 ►

with a local family and so we’re coming in very well like integrated and everybody seems kind of

00:26:23 ►

happy to see us you know like they it’s

00:26:26 ►

more of a pride they get to share their culture uh but i think that’s partly because the population

00:26:30 ►

has been not not that many people are going and they’re kind of on their own little bubble

00:26:34 ►

and what were the lessons that were most potent to you in working with them

00:26:38 ►

yeah that’s a great question you know what what comes to me was the stark contrast in paradigms, understandably.

00:26:48 ►

So, you know, in Western history, we’ve gotten a lot of science, a lot of psychology. We have all these theories.

00:26:52 ►

So I came with a quite, you know, well-developed view of how we heal and how we evolve.

00:26:59 ►

And I think that’s something we can offer them. Well, for them, it’s a very much, and for me too, but deeply kind of spiritual kind of context.

00:27:06 ►

And it’s more animistic, which I think it’s, we need to integrate that the world is deeply alive and so on.

00:27:12 ►

And the way they would take care of trauma, right?

00:27:14 ►

It’s like, we are like, hey, if there’s something in your system and there’s a trauma, for them, it’s a bad spirit that’s in your body, right?

00:27:20 ►

So singing and kind of bringing out different pot can say kind of potions or kind of

00:27:25 ►

blowing smoke on you um it really stood out how big it was also within the christian context again

00:27:34 ►

like you’re opening up every summer ceremony and praying to the mother mary um

00:27:38 ►

something else that kind of stood out is there’s a deep sense it felt more of equilibrium within

00:27:44 ►

that culture again more peaceful there’s smaller people, the more kind, more sustainable.

00:27:49 ►

It seems more.

00:27:51 ►

I don’t know they’re just they found a sense of equilibrium within their society and the environment. There wasn’t any sensor, like just big insight, other than I felt honored to be a part in pretending in a culture that they see themselves

00:28:06 ►

going back to the Mayans, that they’ve survived doing this for 2000 years. And in a very healthy

00:28:13 ►

way, like we have all these fears of drugs becoming legal in our society of things being

00:28:17 ►

thrown off balance of people getting addicted, we just have a lot of fear of just legalization.

00:28:21 ►

And now we have a really good model where this has been legal the entire

00:28:25 ►

time and it’s very healthy and they’re doing very well. So I think we can look at them as a prime

00:28:30 ►

model for that. Yeah, I really appreciate the extent to which you’re bringing in a variety of

00:28:37 ►

models and really advocating for an almost, well, maybe I’m projecting here, but I feel like there’s

00:28:42 ►

an advocacy for a political animism that’s coming through in the work that you’re describing, this systems logic that allows us to interpret everything as having agency.

00:29:02 ►

and is realizing that everything is consciousness and alive.

00:29:06 ►

And it’s a priceless structure that internally and externally,

00:29:08 ►

we’re connected at all times as part of a larger system.

00:29:11 ►

It heals that sense of belonging,

00:29:13 ►

of power, of care.

00:29:16 ►

For me, it’s God.

00:29:17 ►

I was atheist until I took mushrooms.

00:29:19 ►

So there’s this deep sense of my entire deep internal world

00:29:22 ►

is a part of a large,

00:29:23 ►

as Youngwood said, collective unconscious,

00:29:25 ►

but that collective unconscious is very conscious. So we’re participating in this reality internally

00:29:29 ►

and externally all the time. And I think it’s hard to understand psychedelics without that

00:29:34 ►

perspective. And it’s a perspective they still foster. When you take a psychedelic substance

00:29:38 ►

as a decent dose, like psilocybin, everything starts to breathe. There’s all these synchronicities,

00:29:43 ►

the line between an outer dissolves, and you realize just how interdependent

00:29:46 ►

even our thoughts and our feelings are

00:29:47 ►

with the whole environment.

00:29:49 ►

And so I think it fosters this experience of animism.

00:29:52 ►

But once you start living that way regularly,

00:29:54 ►

it becomes this very like enchanted reality.

00:29:58 ►

It’s like this kind of magical experience

00:30:01 ►

that you’re involved in on a day-to-day basis,

00:30:03 ►

which is a lot better than the depressing, reductionistic, isolated kind of magical experience that you’re involved in on a day-to-day basis, which is a lot better than the depressing, reductionistic, isolated kind of worldview that kind of leads to existential

00:30:09 ►

anxiety, I think. Yeah, I think that’s right. And a couple of weeks ago, I was at a party

00:30:15 ►

and somebody I was speaking to there said, capitalism is moving us down Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. And we’re being made to expect that we don’t even

00:30:28 ►

have the right to live. And there’s two passages from your book that I’m going to read that came

00:30:35 ►

up for me when I was thinking about that observation. One is, our modern culture,

00:30:40 ►

the most meat-heavy in history with the belief that humans are naturally monogamous, even in the face of rising divorce rates and promiscuity, perhaps feels threatened because these ideas challenge the status quo and the security of the identity of what it is to be human.

00:31:04 ►

strengthened is the default mode network associated with an overdeveloped self-conscious attention on oneself, which has increased the sense of depression and anxiety in our society

00:31:09 ►

and repressed our creativity and sexual energy. So here you really seem to be advocating for

00:31:17 ►

a sense of connection to get us back up that hierarchy of needs and towards a sense of interconnection.

00:31:31 ►

This seems very potent to me in a week where we’re powerlessly protesting children being murdered in schools.

00:31:32 ►

How do we take these desires for wholeness?

00:31:38 ►

How do we take these modalities for wholeness and move it out of what is generally a pretty

00:31:43 ►

privileged community

00:31:45 ►

of people that are able to have access to this medicine into a more constructive

00:31:51 ►

social point of view that allows us to reconnect with each other and create safety for each other?

00:31:57 ►

No, I think it’s a great question. You know, I think what a lot of us are doing is just to bring

00:32:03 ►

around more awareness around psychedelics and education. The means to solve, I think what a lot of us are doing is just to bring around more awareness around psychedelics and education.

00:32:07 ►

The means to solve, I think, most of our world’s problems from hunger and climate change and what’s going around with guns.

00:32:14 ►

The means are there. We’re just not choosing them. You know, we can create whatever kind of technologies we want.

00:32:20 ►

So what needs to change is values and worldviews. You know, the personal transformation has to happen with an individual to start making different choices. And that’s a very slow process to transform. Ken Wilber is one of my favorite philosophers, done a lot of work on how people develop and evolve through paradigms.

00:32:43 ►

times in five years it’s a very slow process but people aren’t generally going to have a strict meditation practice right but psychedelics can do it almost overnight it’s not a guarantee but

00:32:48 ►

there’s a deep possibility is you know as the research has shown about 65 percent of people

00:32:52 ►

in the right setting have a mystical experience mystical experience meaning understanding our

00:32:56 ►

deep kind of unity and interconnection and a deep sense of love right so those people that have that

00:33:02 ►

experience are probably not going to start choosing to have more guns in this country they’re not going to choose for this capitalist

00:33:07 ►

system that leads most people in poverty so 70 of the world’s in poverty right now i think

00:33:12 ►

something about 30 40 percent of this country um capitalism focused on the personal gain of

00:33:17 ►

individuals at the expense of others that that’s going to keep creating more of a distance so

00:33:21 ►

i ended up writing 20 pages on economics in the

00:33:25 ►

book because it’s the largest system that’s, I think, holding us back. And it’s a system that

00:33:29 ►

can evolve just like everything else. But there’s a lot of power in that position. Right now,

00:33:34 ►

money’s created out of debt. There’s three times more debt than there is money in the world. And

00:33:39 ►

that’s going to keep increasing. That creates a tremendous amount of strides. There’s a lot of

00:33:42 ►

people that are going to keep fighting really, really hard just to prove their existence in terms of house and rent while

00:33:47 ►

other people if you have a lot of money just creates a lot of money in its own just by interest

00:33:51 ►

you know so so we need to move towards another system that isn’t based on uh creating more debt

00:33:57 ►

and is more focused on the deep interconnection not on this kind of value that i’m here just for

00:34:02 ►

personal gain you know that only goes so far if it leaves everybody else destroyed and creates unsafety

00:34:07 ►

in our world.

00:34:08 ►

And so to circle back to like, well, how do we create this change?

00:34:13 ►

Psychedelics give me tremendous hope because I know nothing that can have almost years

00:34:17 ►

of therapy in one day.

00:34:18 ►

It really kind of catapult the transformative process.

00:34:22 ►

And so and it’s becoming so widespread with people either

00:34:26 ►

microdosing or just having one experience, they can become a new person and go kind of through

00:34:30 ►

a death rebirth process and make different decisions. I haven’t seen anything else that

00:34:35 ►

has worked, right? All the teaching, all the education, all the transformative stuff, it’s so

00:34:40 ►

slow. And I think we’re coming to a point because there’s so much suffering, we need things to move

00:34:43 ►

quicker. And in the right setting, this does that. And, you know, I agree with you. I also

00:34:49 ►

am concerned about those of us that are psychedelic, having a lot of self-reinforcing

00:34:55 ►

confirmation bias, and that communities that would benefit from the therapeutic lessons you’re describing being intrinsically put off because we are more liberal, generally speaking, or because we have different societal values. the MAP studies taking this medicine into military communities.

00:35:28 ►

What are some of the things that we need to be doing to be more inclusive in our messaging to invite more people into this healing?

00:35:31 ►

I really love that perspective.

00:35:35 ►

It might be the next book I’ve been playing with it for a few years.

00:35:38 ►

The title is going to be How Psychedelics Saved My Family, working with parents and

00:35:44 ►

so on. I think we need to contextualize psychedelics as wholesome and that they

00:35:49 ►

promote, I would say just family values.

00:35:51 ►

What they do many times is heal relationships within ourselves,

00:35:55 ►

with each other, within the community.

00:35:57 ►

And so I think we can speak to a lot of deep conservative values because a

00:36:01 ►

lot of us turn to be just far more on the liberal end.

00:36:04 ►

Conservative values being taking care of the people around us in terms in a very kind of

00:36:09 ►

warmth oriented way, and also creating a sense of safety, right. And so I think we that safely

00:36:15 ►

happens, again, when we’re not scared of the other, you know, it’s easy to be in a group and

00:36:20 ►

be scared of other, you know, ethnic groups, and so on. But once you kind of have this deep sense

00:36:23 ►

of connection of we’re all the same, that kind of just really heals. Everybody’s in pain. And so

00:36:29 ►

in terms of it doesn’t matter what political side you are, there’s pain all around. This

00:36:33 ►

really helps with that. And so as Michael Pollan notes, when he first released his book,

00:36:39 ►

How to Change Your Mind, he thought he was going to meet all this opposition from political sides

00:36:42 ►

and including from psychiatrists. And he’s like like i was really surprised to find i had found no opposition i think texas itself is

00:36:50 ►

doing um state-funded research into psilocybin right now and so everybody is on this board

00:36:55 ►

everybody wants to make it happen including very conservative people because it heals deep pain

00:37:01 ►

and i think you can speak to all of us. I think all they’re needing is just more,

00:37:06 ►

just awareness around it, that this exists. We’re changing the stigma around it. You know,

00:37:12 ►

I think legalization is going to be a huge thing. There’s a huge amount of people that won’t do

00:37:15 ►

something just because it’s illegal. And there’s a lot of the people that come to the work in

00:37:18 ►

Jamaica. It’s not, it’s not that they couldn’t find something around them too. They just,

00:37:22 ►

they just really want to be clean and by the book. right? And that’s fine. Maybe 50% of the population is like that.

00:37:28 ►

So once we move – like we saw with marijuana, there’s a lot of people that would never touch it once it’s legal. Then grandparents are doing it, and it’s everywhere.

00:37:45 ►

kind of conventional morality of this is okay and approved by the larger us, I think then from then on, it’s very people to, then we need to just focus on access and education because people

00:37:51 ►

are going to be looking for it pretty quickly. And what kinds of emotional labor do you think

00:37:57 ►

that psychedelic people can be doing to reach outside of their peer group and their community to, if not turn people on to

00:38:07 ►

psychedelics, at least take some of the softening lessons that we’ve learned from psychedelics out

00:38:11 ►

to mend some of the rifts that we’re dealing with? Yeah, I think it’s a beautiful question.

00:38:15 ►

And I think the answer to this is it would be the same for any kind of community confronting or

00:38:19 ►

engaging in anybody with other humans. And that would be, at this moment, to lessen judgment.

00:38:24 ►

engaging in anybody with other humans. And that would be, at this moment, it’s a lesson judgment.

00:38:31 ►

Easier said than done. On my website, it’s psychedelicevolution.org, I opened up the site with a quote from Krishnamurti. He was a kind of meditation teacher up in the 60s and 70s.

00:38:36 ►

And he said, non-judgment is the highest form of intelligence, which goes to show how hard that can

00:38:43 ►

be. But judgment by itself creates division.

00:38:47 ►

It says something is good or bad.

00:38:49 ►

And judging internally, even to ourselves or others,

00:38:51 ►

creates shame and it creates separation.

00:38:54 ►

Either is I’m better than you or I’m worse than you.

00:38:56 ►

And it immediately kills connection, again,

00:38:58 ►

within ourselves or other people.

00:39:00 ►

So a lot of people are coming with depression.

00:39:01 ►

It’s just that they’re very strong judgment towards themselves.

00:39:04 ►

Other people that have a hard time getting along with others have a lot of judgment towards others. And people can unconsciously sense when they’re being judged, and they’re also scared of it, of being rejected. They’re scared of being vulnerable and open to new ideas because of judgment.

00:39:16 ►

So if you create the sense of safety, again, by working and weeding out judgment in yourself, period, you will be a happier person and it’d be easier to connect with other

00:39:25 ►

people. That’s a really great response. Thank you for that. One of the things that I want to

00:39:33 ►

highlight before we move into the general Q&A is that there’s so many fundamental assumptions that

00:39:40 ►

you’re challenging very gently in this book, which I really appreciate. There’s a section where

00:39:45 ►

you’re talking about ADHD, and you move into this discussion that neurodiversity is a feature, not a

00:39:52 ►

bug in human evolution. I’m just going to read a short passage, and I’d like you to kind of talk

00:39:58 ►

about that idea. But you say, the term cognitive disorder is highly misleading, however, as this

00:40:04 ►

mutation has brought about many evolutionary advantages, including character traits that well served hunter and gatherer societies, but often proved difficult for individuals in modern society, as do most types of neurodivergence or neurological patterning different from that of the average human.

00:40:27 ►

Now, we’re living in a period where, you know, you and I, we were that kind of vanguard generation that when we were hyper in school, they gave us drugs.

00:40:35 ►

And this kind of set a tone about neurodiversity that is really starting to come to roost right now. So to what extent is the neurodiversity that we’re experiencing right now and the rates of maladaptation that people are coming to psychedelics for healing.

00:40:46 ►

To what extent is this actually a healing feature that should be integrated rather than a bug that needs to be suppressed in your view?

00:40:54 ►

I think it’s largely a healing feature.

00:40:57 ►

It’s not that there’s not difficulties with it.

00:40:58 ►

I think it’s a part of our system and our species, consciously and unconsciously, rejecting the system that we’re in that the system that is in what some ways enslaving people creating we’re rising depression rates more than

00:41:10 ►

any other time increasing anxiety you know whether it’s housing’s hard to find or food

00:41:15 ►

and increasing poverty um we can see what’s happening political landscape there’s a lot

00:41:20 ►

of things that i’m like hey the machine that we’re in isn’t working right it’s destroying the environment and kind of threatening life on the planet i mean so there’s a lot of things that i’m like hey the machine that we’re in isn’t working right it’s destroying the

00:41:25 ►

environment and kind of threatening life on the planet i mean so there’s a lot of things that

00:41:29 ►

need to shift and i think there’s a deep species intelligence that’s all sudden kind of wakes up

00:41:34 ►

and let’s say just rejects but also creates more internal individuality that’s just like hey i’m

00:41:41 ►

a unique person that just doesn’t need to follow the script.

00:41:51 ►

For myself, I was diagnosed with ADD at age 15. I took medicine for a few years, Adderall,

00:41:54 ►

then didn’t take it seriously for a while. I’m like, this is all made up. I’m like,

00:41:57 ►

it was part of that machine, part of the system. I’m pushing this away.

00:42:03 ►

And about four or five years ago, I took 500 micrograms of LSD, like a pretty good trip.

00:42:06 ►

And halfway through, I started thinking about ADD.

00:42:08 ►

And I was like, is this real?

00:42:11 ►

I don’t know why it came up to me, but in the trip, it started to emerge.

00:42:16 ►

And so I took out a computer, started doing a lot of research while I took a lot of tests.

00:42:17 ►

And I’m like, nope, I have ADD.

00:42:22 ►

And I kept driving deeper into the research and saw that they’ve isolated the gene of ADD. So it’s genetic components.

00:42:24 ►

And it leads to a neurodivergence, meaning a different of ADD. So it’s genetic components and it leads to a neurodivergence,

00:42:25 ►

meaning a different brain patterning.

00:42:28 ►

So it’s physiological.

00:42:29 ►

I thought it was just something we constructed.

00:42:31 ►

And there’s many of different neurodivergence

00:42:33 ►

kind of characteristics.

00:42:35 ►

And it was easy to see how a lot of the things

00:42:37 ►

that I had felt were my strengths came from this.

00:42:41 ►

Ability to hyper-focus in areas

00:42:43 ►

that I’m deeply interested in.

00:42:44 ►

And once i get into

00:42:45 ►

something i got really into something in research a lot um a lot of my drive a lot of my energy

00:42:50 ►

so there’s so many positives but a lot of certain difficulties um for example with certain details

00:42:57 ►

like i have i i can write a lot and write very easily uh but i’m not good at editing i can read

00:43:03 ►

something 15 to 20 times and miss typos.

00:43:07 ►

So there’s a tension deficit where I understand the wholeness of the idea of what’s going on,

00:43:11 ►

but the little like symbols I miss. And so I’ve learned where the weaknesses are in terms of like,

00:43:16 ►

I need to hire an editor. And so the idea with ADD and so on, the research showed that it’s been

00:43:23 ►

part of the human lineage at least 10,000 years, if not more, because these are the people that inspired creativity, perhaps promoted migration for people to get moving forward, that they became restlessness.

00:43:34 ►

And there’s this drive for novelty and change.

00:43:36 ►

So part of what ADD is, is the brain’s not making enough dopamine and needs a little bit of excitement.

00:43:41 ►

So you give people stimulants and they can focus more.

00:43:44 ►

It brings in the assignments.

00:43:45 ►

But another way to hack this is by continual learning.

00:43:48 ►

You need change.

00:43:49 ►

Again, what kind of McKenna, Terrence McKenna said,

00:43:52 ►

the big poles of the universe are habits and novelty, a sense of newness.

00:43:55 ►

So I think these are evolutionary factors that promote acceleration of growth if done right.

00:44:01 ►

And so if somebody that has ADD, part of the thing is not to keep working within the system, but to find something you really like and then get really good at it. And then

00:44:09 ►

that can be your gift that you can give to everybody else. And how do those that don’t have

00:44:14 ►

a neurodivergence in their makeup integrate their lives with people that do in a more harmonious

00:44:24 ►

way? How can we, how can we work

00:44:26 ►

with each other and bring out each other’s strengths in your view? Yeah, I think it’s a

00:44:29 ►

beautiful question. So the perspective I’m coming from is from, say, a guy in system,

00:44:34 ►

the idea that the earth is a large interconnected organism, the idea put forward by James Lovelock,

00:44:39 ►

it’s really put out in the book. I think Terrence McKenna, and the psychedelic itself kind of gives

00:44:43 ►

this expression that we’re a deep interconnected system that has some level of consciousness and so on and i think

00:44:48 ►

a good metaphor for that is our body and the body creates different organs to do different jobs you

00:44:54 ►

know a stomach a heart a lungs i mean each cell has their own specific thing what they’re supposed

00:44:59 ►

to do and even though it’s called parts mentalized what they’re supposed to be doing they work in

00:45:03 ►

unison to create this large body.

00:45:05 ►

I think the earth itself perhaps births humans to do different things.

00:45:09 ►

So not everybody is meant to be – we’re all artists, but some people are here to devote their life to art, some people to writing, some people to engineering, some people to politics, some people for systemic change, while some other people are here to work on one-on-one therapy.

00:45:22 ►

So we’re all born, I feel feel with a specific impulse to do something right it’s something and i think it’s very internal in terms of like this

00:45:29 ►

feels right and has a deep sense of purpose and excitement to my system and i’d encourage you to

00:45:34 ►

follow that right regardless of what you know neurotype you are and so the neurodivergent

00:45:40 ►

types might just have a type that’s like i need to break out of the conventional molds go do this

00:45:44 ►

thing over here but we also need a conventional society we need to keep some level

00:45:48 ►

of the structure going again the idea of as mckenna said is this tension between habit and novelty

00:45:54 ►

we need to create some habits because we need stability so regardless of what it is it’s to

00:45:58 ►

really kind of i’d say open your heart’s a big part if your heart’s closed you’re not seeing

00:46:03 ►

clearly right that’s where we feel our deep sense of unity and our connection with others. What I learned through the mushroom is love’s the most important thing, followed by learning. Everything else is so not important to these two values. So I think as long as people’s hearts are open and they’re following it forward as a compass, they’re going to end up where they’re going to, and they can have deeper relationships with whoever they’re around.

00:46:24 ►

they’re around. I love that. If your heart is closed, you’re not seeing clearly. That’s a really terrific observation. And speaking of openheartedness, one of the elements of both

00:46:29 ►

of your book and of your ongoing practice is to introduce a new framework for thinking about

00:46:37 ►

sexuality. I saw you give a presentation with the San Francisco Psychedelic Society with Ariel Brown

00:46:42 ►

on psychedelics and sexuality. And

00:46:45 ►

in the book as well, you’re talking about a more expansive view of sexuality. So to what extent

00:46:53 ►

is the increase of interest in psychedelics helping us process this increase of visibility,

00:47:02 ►

understanding, and empathy with the expansion of sexual diversity

00:47:06 ►

that’s going on right now? I think it’s a core part of who we are. A little bit of background.

00:47:12 ►

There’s a lot of stuff that came up around sexuality in the psychedelic area after some

00:47:15 ►

articles came out against some of the teachers I worked with. I think it was last November.

00:47:20 ►

And so I released an article a month ago on Lucid News about how to hold sexual boundaries and sexual energy and psychedelic psychotherapy.

00:47:27 ►

So that article is out there. You can see some of the perspectives.

00:47:32 ►

Some of my background was also studying Tantra and a teacher I really love was David Data.

00:47:37 ►

And in Tantra cosmology, the whole universe breaks down into these forces, masculine, feminine, in terms of there’s the one God.

00:47:44 ►

And it kind of breaks down to these two beings. And everything is a creation between these two archetypes, right? And from that

00:47:49 ►

perspective, everything is sex, like everything, that’s what that’s the creative energy that

00:47:53 ►

creates everything in existence. And we can follow it down the evolutionary line of all animals,

00:47:58 ►

every animal, including us, it’s ever existed, came through life through sex, sexual energy

00:48:02 ►

creates your body, right? Sigmund Freud

00:48:05 ►

puts the libido as a really kind of ground part of our psychic structure. And I don’t think that’s

00:48:10 ►

the complete picture, but it’s that important part of us. And I think it’s an important deep

00:48:15 ►

soul quality. And for somebody to feel a deep sense of wholeness, they need to feel their

00:48:19 ►

sexual vitality and energy. And so as Stan Grof said, these are holotropic states, states that

00:48:24 ►

organically

00:48:25 ►

move towards wholeness including bringing up whatever’s repressed sex comes up a lot in

00:48:29 ►

psychedelics especially in deeper doses and in this level of therapy a person can come in for

00:48:34 ►

something completely else but their life force including sexuality will suddenly come up really

00:48:39 ►

strong in the journeys um it leads to more confidence vitality connection creativity ease i

00:48:44 ►

mean there’s a lot of important

00:48:46 ►

things what’s once it’s um kind of integrated in your system and with that also comes with a sense

00:48:51 ►

of power you need more responsibility again boundaries become very very important in this

00:48:55 ►

but i think us owning that energy um is is very important and necessary because it’ll leak it’s

00:49:00 ►

a need and maslow puts it at the bottom of the hierarchy. It’s like trying to repress your hunger. And so if you repress that, it leaks out in ways that aren’t

00:49:08 ►

healthy for anybody, including doing harm to others. And so I was trying to also increase,

00:49:13 ►

I think, the awareness because these are two taboo subjects, drugs and sex, and

00:49:19 ►

give people enough drugs, including alcohol. All of a sudden, their inhibitions come out and

00:49:24 ►

sexual stuff comes up. And so I thought there was needed to be more awareness before the relationships.

00:49:28 ►

And especially before we move towards widespread legality, because I don’t think we’ve kind of

00:49:35 ►

included that in the thinking is we start giving everybody in psychedelics, there’s going to be

00:49:38 ►

more sexual arousal that happens. And we have to be ready to hold that space very well in a way

00:49:43 ►

that’s not shaming the person and encouraging growth and healing but also that we’re aware of our own sexuality and keeping the

00:49:49 ►

boundaries very strong and finally uh lorenzo wouldn’t uh wouldn’t forgive me if i didn’t talk

00:49:55 ►

about your interest in blockchain and uh its its relationship with psychedelics and you talk a bit

00:50:01 ►

about how blockchain is a an elegant solution for managing

00:50:05 ►

the psychedelic supply chain, which tracks for me except for government surveillance.

00:50:12 ►

But I think there’s a lot more in there about blockchain and UBI and blockchain with regard to

00:50:19 ►

its promise for creating a more systems-bound future. So I’m wondering if you can comment on

00:50:25 ►

your view of economics that you proposed in this book and ways that there are 21st century

00:50:33 ►

solutions to reinventing ourselves to approach the 22nd century. No, beautiful. Thanks for

00:50:38 ►

bringing the topic. As I mentioned, I’ve been somebody that’s, as I decided at 18, I’m not

00:50:43 ►

going to, I’d rather not live. I’m just not following my interests very deeply.

00:50:47 ►

And in 2017, I came across blockchain.

00:50:50 ►

And something happened where really it was the only other big thing other than psychedelics that really kind of hijacked my system.

00:50:56 ►

I felt this just innate drive to like really understand it.

00:50:59 ►

And I spent over a thousand hours in 2017 just doing a lot of research on blockchain.

00:51:03 ►

And it was just such a sophisticated and beautiful system in terms of just systems thinking there’s, I think, a deep

00:51:09 ►

evolution that happened. And the idea that we have this as a technology, I think, can really

00:51:13 ►

catapult us forward in many ways. It’s Paul Stamets and a lot of people that, you know,

00:51:18 ►

been in the psychedelic space for a while point out that as you keep taking them, you start to

00:51:23 ►

really care about the world. They start to dissolve our boundaries between us and everything and a deep sense of empathy and care including

00:51:28 ►

for the future of humanity comes up and as i’ve mentioned the economics i think is the biggest

00:51:33 ►

roadblock that’s affecting everything including from animal factory farming destroying the ecology

00:51:39 ►

um suppression of across um you know classes i mean war itself is largely economic you see what’s

00:51:47 ►

going on with ukraine and russia right now and so that system as i mentioned is largely created

00:51:51 ►

out of debt it’s blockchain offers something that money’s created almost rhythmically so if i take

00:51:57 ►

bitcoin for an example every 10 minutes 6.25 bitcoins created. It’s not based on debt. It’s an open source protocol anybody can see.

00:52:06 ►

So I think it also can encourage brings forward a value system like psychedelics where there’s a sense of transparency.

00:52:13 ►

Right. Everybody can see the code right now. Money’s created not only out of debt, but private individuals like the banks and then also the Federal Reserve.

00:52:20 ►

Right here, it’s a very democratic. It kind of brings everybody to the same power.

00:52:24 ►

of the federal reserve right here it’s a very democratic it kind of brings everybody to the same power um everybody has uh some say in how the system moves forward and again what’s this

00:52:30 ►

psychedelics kind of promote the sense of unity right where my identity is no longer just based

00:52:35 ►

on a country but i’m a global citizen um i think cryptocurrencies also like bitcoin and so on

00:52:41 ►

kind of promote that because it’s because there are a global economic language.

00:52:45 ►

It’s no longer secluded by borders. We kind of have this certain point of reference now of value

00:52:50 ►

that isn’t based on any one group or language or country. I think you can really break forward

00:52:58 ►

the stalemate in many ways. As you had mentioned, I think it can also help us bring universal basic

00:53:03 ►

income as care develops. I think there’s this impulse to help the people that are most vulnerable around us. And so giving a standard wage of living just because you’re human and part of a citizen, like here’s $1,000 a month because you deserve to live, is something that we can do. We have the resources for this. We just, we don’t have, we’re not, we don’t have the value system

00:53:25 ►

that most people can vote for this,

00:53:27 ►

but the technology starts making that

00:53:29 ►

to make it very, a lot more easier.

00:53:31 ►

And it also creates a deep sense of,

00:53:33 ►

once something’s in the blockchain,

00:53:34 ►

it’s virtually unhackable.

00:53:35 ►

So it creates a sense of a deep trust

00:53:38 ►

because there’s a historical record.

00:53:40 ►

For example, for anything to change in the blockchain,

00:53:42 ►

you need to hack 51% of the whole system,

00:53:44 ►

which is virtually impossible.

00:53:46 ►

So it creates a deeper sense of trust for any kind of contracts or anything moving forward.

00:53:52 ►

So overall, I think it just creates a new platform where we’ve had a stalemate.

00:53:57 ►

And I think those background changes can create dramatic shifts in our society across the world.

00:54:04 ►

Thank you. can create dramatic shifts in our society across the world yeah thank you uh well speaking of

00:54:07 ►

dramatic shifts uh enough enough from me let’s hear uh from any questions or comments from others

00:54:12 ►

go ahead rio uh i want to thank you very much i’m enjoying your book tremendously okay thank you

00:54:20 ►

appreciate especially you’re covering the field historically and in the new material.

00:54:27 ►

One of the things that you address is the power of single dose experiences with psilocybin.

00:54:40 ►

And there seems to be some data that shows that these can be transformative in the long term.

00:54:48 ►

But in my own observation and with others, it seems like that is limited.

00:54:56 ►

And potentially there is a good balance to be had between a single dose and some of those to be strong, others are not as strong.

00:55:07 ►

And so that’s a point you might address.

00:55:10 ►

And the new application of micro dosing to extend those facts.

00:55:18 ►

So maybe you could address that concept there.

00:55:21 ►

I love that.

00:55:22 ►

I was running a group until very recently at the

00:55:25 ►

SF Psychedelic Society called Developing a Relationship with Sacred Mushrooms. And

00:55:29 ►

I want to put forward, I think the correct word, I think better just orientation towards these

00:55:33 ►

medicines is developing a relationship. And so it’s part of just making a book. It’s like the

00:55:40 ►

arguments have to be very linear and so on. And there’s a lot of the dissertation. There’s a lot I wanted to say that I really kind of was restricted.

00:55:48 ►

And so I see our relationships to these really lifelong. I think one mushroom trip, a single dose can do a lot for individual. I’ve seen it do a lot for individuals.

00:55:57 ►

And at 18, if I just had that one journey, it would have transformed my life completely still uh but they’re almost as indigenous see the

00:56:06 ►

tradition see them they see them as teachers you don’t just show up to class once you keep showing

00:56:10 ►

up to the class um and so journeying three times a year is pretty good once a year i think on the

00:56:16 ►

more minimal end is fine you know again like you can only do one do one but especially with psilocybin

00:56:23 ►

because it’s different almost every time i I think it can be continually transformative for the rest of your life.

00:56:30 ►

And I think microdosing is a good way to keep building that relationship on a regular basis.

00:56:35 ►

So even though, I mean, I’ve taken, I’ve probably had 400 different journeys of substances altogether.

00:56:40 ►

And so I don’t take, I take a few big journeys a year right now, but I found that I’m still thinking about mushrooms all the time because that

00:56:47 ►

relationship’s always ongoing. So I’m thinking about them.

00:56:49 ►

And then a part of my life, whether I’m taking them or not,

00:56:51 ►

I think about their insights nonstop.

00:56:54 ►

And I think micro dosing is a way for people,

00:56:56 ►

especially in the beginning to just keep building a sense of communion with

00:56:59 ►

them.

00:57:00 ►

Does that answer your question adequately or would you like to ask it again in a different way?

00:57:05 ►

Oh, it certainly addresses the question. One detail there.

00:57:09 ►

Yeah. When you do do a single dose, do you think that there is a certain threshold in terms of dose that is important to hit to have some transformative effect. Yeah. I wish we could make it that concrete. What I’ve seen,

00:57:26 ►

I’ve seen at least, I mean, many hundreds of journeys of people undergoing and

00:57:31 ►

things happened almost differently at different times. I wish it was more dose dependence,

00:57:37 ►

you know, so I tend to work within the four to six gram range with people.

00:57:44 ►

And for a lot of people, it can be very breaking through a lot.

00:57:47 ►

Some people need 10 grams, right? So it’s very particular to that psyche. And in that moment,

00:57:51 ►

there’s times in my life where I’ve taken really high doses, but two hits of LSD went a lot further.

00:57:57 ►

So I think, is it appropriate for this person at this moment in their life to have this huge

00:58:03 ►

transformative experience, right? And so you can give them any amount of medicine, but I think there’s a deeper

00:58:08 ►

intelligence that they may not break through at that moment because it’s not right for them.

00:58:12 ►

They could be going through a divorce or they could be feeling unstable. I mean, that can make

00:58:15 ►

them more kind of just out of whack. What I can see, or what’s probably more right is, again,

00:58:21 ►

seeing it as ongoing because people don’t break through. And I don’t even know if that should be the main thing we’re focusing on,

00:58:27 ►

but kind of dissolve completely into a state of like-womeness and realization.

00:58:30 ►

That first time doesn’t mean they should stop.

00:58:32 ►

I think the focus should be more on growth.

00:58:35 ►

Are we taking any amount, and does that offer growth continually?

00:58:40 ►

If I could switch and ask one other thing right now.

00:58:43 ►

If I could switch and ask one other thing right now.

00:59:07 ►

You go into kind of a explanation certain aspects of the higher consciousness states. Maybe you can address that.

00:59:16 ►

And if you’ve had any experience with it and how useful you find that concept.

00:59:23 ►

Yeah, I came across that concept at 18 right so i’ve had 20

00:59:27 ►

years with it and i found it indispensable like it’s a i clung to it quickly and i’ve loved it a

00:59:33 ►

lot and the idea is a whole on uh put forward first by arthur kessler and then popularized by

00:59:39 ►

ken wilber is the idea that everything’s a whole and a part at the same time and that we needed

00:59:43 ►

this kind of concept because it’s a genuine need to understand things

00:59:46 ►

in this kind of way.

00:59:47 ►

And same way like atoms are both particles

00:59:49 ►

and waves at the same time,

00:59:51 ►

everything is always a whole and a part of something else.

00:59:53 ►

So atoms are whole at the same time,

00:59:55 ►

they come together to form molecules,

00:59:57 ►

and molecules come together to form cells,

00:59:59 ►

and cells, we have like something like 37 trillion cells

01:00:01 ►

in our body, they’re each whole,

01:00:02 ►

they’re each individual organisms,

01:00:04 ►

but they come together to create a larger whole.

01:00:07 ►

And that this is the systemic structure of evolution.

01:00:10 ►

This is how evolution moves forward.

01:00:12 ►

And the idea is also then that evolution doesn’t just end here.

01:00:15 ►

It’s the same way a cell only knows so much, but it’s a part of a larger body and network.

01:00:19 ►

That’s also a part two for us.

01:00:21 ►

And the next largest system we could say is God or the planet.

01:00:24 ►

It’s a very large interconnected biospherephere as we’re seeing with climate change.

01:00:28 ►

You know, gases and things happening in certain parts of the earth affect everything else.

01:00:32 ►

So the idea is also that there’s a deeper wholeness that we’re a part of.

01:00:36 ►

My most transformative experiences have been breaking through into, you could say, that larger holon,

01:00:41 ►

whether it’s the planet or God or the universe that uh contact with a larger

01:00:46 ►

intelligence that seems to know a lot about our history and is also a part of us it’s not this

01:00:52 ►

deep separate thing the same way my heartbeats felt in every cell in my body right when you kind

01:00:58 ►

of have this level of contact it’s this is a deep part of you. It creates you. The body creates each cell, right? This earth, this universe created me. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t sit there and think about it. That’s the level of impact it’s had in my system and I think can reorient us differently if we start to treat this earth as a living organism.

01:01:25 ►

It all becomes more sacred. It becomes more important. You’re building a relationship with it instead of seeing this inanimate thing.

01:01:34 ►

And then we start to realize that we’re all part of the system. There’s more of like, say, like a brotherhood or sisterhood or kind of family kind of feeling that evolves as we kind of realize we’re part of this larger body.

01:01:36 ►

So I found it deeply impactful.

01:01:39 ►

Let’s make space for Ian to get in.

01:01:43 ►

I wonder, Charles, if I could just follow one thing on that.

01:01:45 ►

Briefly, because I do want to get Ian in.

01:01:52 ►

Okay. And looking forward to Ian, of course. You’ve done a very good way of presenting that,

01:02:01 ►

and I see it as a way to verbalize, put into some structure experiences that one has, and in a way bringing back those insights, experiences.

01:02:07 ►

And perhaps this isn’t the goal of this concept or explanation,

01:02:13 ►

but it seems to me that what’s being attempted there,

01:02:18 ►

and maybe so maybe I’m seeing it not as it’s being meant to be used,

01:02:28 ►

not as it’s being meant to be used is the relationship of that to an organic experience in a state of higher consciousness itself i’m talking about yeah i think i’m following you

01:02:36 ►

that the idea and i put on there is that because we’re part of this whole on we can have the

01:02:40 ►

experience of a larger whole on and uh as far as it being organic i think there’s very many methods to um have that experience psychedelics i think for are the most quick

01:02:49 ►

listen useful and efficient meditation is one sex is one drumming is one holotropic breath work

01:02:55 ►

where that sense of self dissolves and it’s inherently part of our larger self and then

01:03:00 ►

we get in contact with that so it’s also not a very different vision than the hindus have with

01:03:05 ►

ahman and brahman that we’re part of this very large dream with called atman and brahman and

01:03:10 ►

within there’s a sense of self atman who is this larger self and so it’s idea of parts within larger

01:03:16 ►

just holes um and i think it’s just been a part of uh our thinking all the time it’s just we’re

01:03:22 ►

kind of clearly making the concept that everything’s a part of a larger whole.

01:03:26 ►

I hope I’m answering your question correctly,

01:03:28 ►

but that’s part of the argument that this is a structure of evolution.

01:03:32 ►

So we can see ourselves as parts,

01:03:34 ►

but always belonging to a larger whole always.

01:03:36 ►

So I think that kind of heals our sense of belonging fragmentation,

01:03:40 ►

which we realize we’re organically always a part of a larger whole.

01:03:43 ►

And then there’s this psychic reality towards it.

01:03:46 ►

I’m having this internal subjective experience,

01:03:48 ►

but there’s a subjective experience to this larger whole

01:03:51 ►

that we can actually gain entrance through.

01:03:53 ►

Ian, please.

01:03:55 ►

Hi there, Jahan, and thank you so much for being here.

01:03:57 ►

It’s been absolutely wonderful and informative,

01:04:00 ►

and also a tip of the cap to Charles,

01:04:02 ►

who’s kept it going and asked some really excellent questions.

01:04:05 ►

Right.

01:04:06 ►

I want to take it all the way back to McKenna’s stoned ape theory and whether or not, since you’ve been fascinated by it for so long, whether there’s been any solid evidence, more evidence for you to present other than the intuitive sense of it feels right.

01:04:23 ►

Yeah, totally.

01:04:23 ►

other than the intuitive sense of it feels right.

01:04:27 ►

I’ve heard people push back on it by saying,

01:04:32 ►

well, you look at the advent of early technologies like fire that enabled us to cook meat,

01:04:34 ►

which in turn gave us protein

01:04:38 ►

to increase the size and complexity of our brains.

01:04:44 ►

Which it’s hard

01:04:46 ►

to fossilize a fungus so what what do you have what’s yeah yeah totally i think there’s been a

01:04:54 ►

lot of good research that’s happened over the last 20 years that um mckenna’s book i think came out

01:04:59 ►

in 1992 1993 food of the gods we’ve had about 30 years since then. And I think there’s been

01:05:05 ►

some strong science. The most grounded by far is that we found out in the last 10 years that

01:05:11 ►

psilocybin stimulates neurogenesis, the growth of new neurons, the brain physically begins to grow.

01:05:15 ►

There aren’t that many substances on the planet that do that. In the 1990s, we thought brain

01:05:20 ►

growth just stopped at a certain age, but now we know it can be stimulated. So aside from the

01:05:24 ►

formation of new neurons, it also increases what’s known as spinogenesis,

01:05:27 ►

the re-enlivening of dendrites that had atrophied or died. And so what depression looks like is

01:05:32 ►

generally dendrites become atrophied. Dendrites are the parts of the neurons that talk together.

01:05:37 ►

And so the whole brain starts to become isolated and parsed. This hyperconnects the brain.

01:05:41 ►

I recommend people seeing, just Googling MRI and psilocybin, and there’s

01:05:45 ►

great images of psilocybin, people under psilocybin brain scans versus a placebo. I mean, the complete

01:05:51 ►

differences. And so we know now it quiets what’s known as a default mode network. The ego center

01:05:55 ►

is part of the cell phone. It’s an I, I, I, me, me, me. There’s a specific network that lights up.

01:06:00 ►

And that network acts almost as a repressive function for the rest of the brain. So when

01:06:04 ►

that loud voice quiets down, it gives room for all the other voices so the brain hyper

01:06:08 ►

connects um creates a state of neuroplasticity we work and rewire and many of those pathways

01:06:13 ►

stay with us so we know that just in the last 10 years and the idea that this was available for our

01:06:18 ►

ancestors and they did it millions of times over millions of years as paul sammett’s notes it’s

01:06:24 ►

the most common mushroom in the Africa savannah where we evolved.

01:06:27 ►

And we came down from the canopies of the trees about 5 million years ago.

01:06:31 ►

We were there for about 4 million years.

01:06:33 ►

It’s the most common mushroom.

01:06:34 ►

We’re largely kind of more vegetarian, but we followed also cattle and mushrooms grows on, you know, coprophilic goes on the dung of cattle.

01:06:41 ►

So we’ve been constantly, you know, in the footsteps as we looked for new sources

01:06:45 ►

of food so the idea is we started with microdosing just eating when we found it eventually moves to

01:06:49 ►

rituals so aside from the hyper-connected brain states that we know what exists now we also know

01:06:53 ►

now you know the research has continued to show 65 percent of people in the right setting setting

01:06:58 ►

have mystical experience so now it also leads to the formation of religion because people are

01:07:02 ►

having mystical experiences millions of years ago as mckenna notes is leads to the formation of religion because people are having mystical experiences millions of years ago.

01:07:05 ►

As McKinnon notes, it was probably also the formation of language.

01:07:08 ►

And again, it creates psychedelic state of synesthesia where our senses begin to kind of conflate into one another.

01:07:14 ►

So sound can all of a sudden conflate with meaning and images, giving also birth to the alphabet system.

01:07:20 ►

There’s also good work done by David Lewis Williams.

01:07:22 ►

He’s a cognitive archaeologist, did a lot of work in the 80s and 90s internationally renowned wrote lots of books on archaeology

01:07:28 ►

um specifically cave painting you know and so he deduced after i don’t know decades like maybe six

01:07:35 ►

decades of work that the formation of art because cave art was the first formation of arts was

01:07:40 ►

actually catalyzed likely by psychedelics he would say expanded states of consciousness in general but he strongly puts the psychedelics but he also puts breathing and

01:07:49 ►

drumming um the difference here is psychedelics are very easy to to kind of use you just eat

01:07:53 ►

something right while aside from something like meditation or holotropic breathwork where you have

01:07:58 ►

to sit there for like an hour in a very focused steady state right that takes a lot more focus

01:08:03 ►

it’s easier to state something so caves would have added a lot of uh benefits to our kind of early shamanic ancestors including a

01:08:10 ►

sense of safety there’s one entrance right so they can be in this vulnerable state and with

01:08:14 ►

somebody just taking care of the entrance and a state of darkness and so you can go there at any

01:08:19 ►

time it kind of keeps you safe from weather and predators, but also it’s a great space to project your

01:08:25 ►

visions onto. And then the formation of art simply came from tracing those images that you were

01:08:30 ►

having, these psychedelic states onto the walls, right? So it’s a quick, easy explanation from art.

01:08:35 ►

But because it creates a hyper-connected brain state and stimulates creativity, as I just shared,

01:08:39 ►

it might’ve led to the creation of tools itself. The idea for us to terraform the environment,

01:08:44 ►

right?

01:08:45 ►

So the two main theories right now in evolution, I think they fall short, is it was tools that changed our consciousness, tools changed the environment, and that changed us.

01:08:53 ►

And the idea that we started using fire and created an external stomach and that free calories in our system that went to brain growth, right?

01:09:02 ►

So we have more calories than ever before available readily,

01:09:06 ►

you know, especially in the last hundred years

01:09:08 ►

that has not led to any brain development.

01:09:09 ►

So it wasn’t the restricted restriction of calories

01:09:12 ►

and all of a sudden that those calories are free

01:09:14 ►

to lead to brain growth.

01:09:14 ►

That’s just like one of the main theories

01:09:16 ►

right now of evolution.

01:09:17 ►

And we have more tools than ever before.

01:09:19 ►

I mean, at accelerating rate, our technology is increasing.

01:09:22 ►

And it seems like since the agricultural revolution,

01:09:24 ►

our brain

01:09:25 ►

size has gone down about five percent right so that’s a massive shift so the idea is that we

01:09:29 ►

stopped eating something in our diet that was actually forming brain growth over since the

01:09:33 ►

agricultural revolution as yuval noir harari points out in his book sapiens um mushrooms were

01:09:39 ►

too elusive to integrate into the agricultural revolution they grow from spores they’re

01:09:43 ►

microscopic right so they’re not seeds like we can tangibly see the turn to plants and trees.

01:09:47 ►

It wasn’t until Terrence McKenna’s and Dennis McKenna’s book in the 1970s,

01:09:52 ►

the magic mushroom growers guide that we even knew how to grow psilocybin mushrooms. They were

01:09:57 ►

the first to kind of cultivate a method and share it with people. So it’s a fairly new technology

01:10:01 ►

in that sense for us to integrate in our culture. So once we start putting these pieces together, it’s not that there weren’t other things like tools or a fire that influenced us.

01:10:09 ►

It was that the creative spark to even do those things came from this hyper-connected brain state that psilocybin offered.

01:10:16 ►

Great. That’s a fantastic summary of the Stone April and where it’s headed.

01:10:23 ►

Sort of off the – not quite a follow-up but a

01:10:28 ►

separate topic are there people that we we talk a lot about how you know psychedelics

01:10:33 ►

aren’t for everyone are there people that you turn away and why i have to um turn away, but that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve help. For example, I scanned out borderline

01:10:48 ►

and schizophrenia because I don’t have the resources to hold that, right? And it doesn’t

01:10:55 ►

mean they don’t deserve help. And so I think as we move towards legalization and we have

01:11:01 ►

clinics with entire teams that these people can also benefit from these experiences.

01:11:10 ►

It’s just that because they can be very ungrounded, I don’t have a whole team in terms of expertise and also legal support to hold somebody that needs that level of attention.

01:11:16 ►

But somebody at the borderline of schizophrenia, if they have, you know, five people on a team

01:11:20 ►

and there’s a place they can stay for a week, my benefit, because again, it can create a

01:11:23 ►

deep sense of wholeness and love and belonging creativity um so i think these are for you

01:11:29 ►

believe these i think they’re for everybody but not at every moment and so i think the person

01:11:34 ►

needs to be at somewhat stable place and to have a good support system i think it’s a birthright

01:11:39 ►

that we can all have access to but again i think there needs to be a lot of discernment and care about before

01:11:47 ►

taking the substance. A very quick follow-up. What is your protocol for people who are on SSRIs?

01:11:53 ►

Yeah. Half the people that come are on SSRIs, right? Because most people come because they’re

01:11:59 ►

depression or anxiety. Psilocybin itself is fairly safe. I ask people to follow their doctor’s recommendation.

01:12:08 ►

It’s great if they can begin to wean off before their journey. A lot of people can’t because

01:12:13 ►

then they would be too unstable. A lot of people have been on them for 10, 20 years.

01:12:19 ►

So it’s nice to do, even though it’s fairly safe across the board, still do some level of

01:12:24 ►

comparing what compound that they are taking and how it interacts with psilocybin.

01:12:28 ►

There’s some people like Spirit Doctor.

01:12:30 ►

You can go on and share what’s it like to have this combination.

01:12:34 ►

But we still take them.

01:12:35 ►

I’ve seen a lot of people get off of SSRIs with journeys and microdosing.

01:12:40 ►

It’s not a recommendation.

01:12:41 ►

It’s not something that we can say, you know, Hey, this will be

01:12:45 ►

an outcome or promote it because I also need to pay attention to their, their doctors.

01:12:50 ►

But I’ve seen a lot of people create enough wholeness. SSRIs tend to just numb people and

01:12:55 ►

doesn’t solve the issue. While this tends to get to the root of the problems, whether it’s

01:12:59 ►

self-esteem or deep trauma, we have to engage. I’m not saying it’s easy. A lot of psilocybin

01:13:03 ►

experiences are very difficult, but it seems the overall outcome is healing.

01:13:07 ►

And a lot of people are able then to let go of the SSRS.

01:13:11 ►

Thank you very much.

01:13:13 ►

In the chat, Carl asks,

01:13:16 ►

Jahan mentioned an author or book

01:13:18 ►

who spoke about paradigm change.

01:13:19 ►

Can he repeat that source and elaborate

01:13:21 ►

on other insights on paradigm change

01:13:23 ►

that haven’t yet been mentioned?

01:13:30 ►

Thank you. Yeah, totally. There’s a deep interest of mine was world views my master’s focused on that um my favorite author in the area is ken wilbur he’s written about 20 books on integral philosophy

01:13:35 ►

and psychology and his work over a course of a lifetime was probably a thousand models if not

01:13:42 ►

at least many hundreds of of development of human

01:13:45 ►

development in the east and the west from like the chakra system to everything happening in

01:13:49 ►

psychology and systems theory and how does evolution occur collectively but also personally

01:13:55 ►

um and his background was a deep kind of a meditation and spirituality the idea that

01:14:00 ►

there’s higher stages of consciousness that are accessible with sustained interest.

01:14:06 ►

And there’s been a lot of developmental psychologists working for decades, seeing how even children develop, you know, and how that continues into adulthood.

01:14:14 ►

So if you go into Wilbur’s work, I mean, one I can point to that focuses on this specifically is integral psychology.

01:14:20 ►

In the back, you see just all these maps comparing a lot of developmental psychologists and thinkers in that area.

01:14:26 ►

The idea being that once the self is self sense of self changes, so does one’s values and the way they perceive the world.

01:14:33 ►

And they’ve been very well mapped out. Another good model is called spiral dynamics.

01:14:38 ►

Many people have been working on that one for decades, and it’s a color coded system of like eight different levels of paradigm development.

01:14:44 ►

for decades and it’s a color-coded system of like eight different levels of paradigm development um moving from animistic you know all the way to more hyper-connected system and you know with

01:14:54 ►

capitalism almost being at the middle of that that’s more of a kind of reductionist scientific

01:14:58 ►

material approach to reality that focuses on the individual is like stage five and there’s more to that there’s a

01:15:05 ►

sensitivity sensitivity and cultural awareness and more deeper sense of just knowing that growth

01:15:11 ►

exists that comes after that you know so it’s been very well mapped out spiral dynamics is an easy

01:15:17 ►

one to google and get a lot of information on without giving anything away the way you stuck

01:15:22 ►

the landing of the book on that idea and brought

01:15:25 ►

it all to a whole with your tool concert very well done as a writer thanks dog i appreciate that

01:15:30 ►

anybody else have uh any questions or comments you want to get in today

01:15:36 ►

okay oh go ahead andrew i’m i’m thinking about the particular place that we’re at as a culture, as far as like the ingression or re-ingression of psychedelics.

01:15:49 ►

And I’m curious how you feel about, there’s the reality of people having their first psychedelic experience with you.

01:16:02 ►

And then there’s the potential for future sort of experiences

01:16:08 ►

and so do you see first journeys as a distinctly different kind of experience to hold space for

01:16:18 ►

than you know somebody’s 10th somebody’s 50th. So I can tell you what I’ve seen is maybe 50 to 70% of the people that come in,

01:16:30 ►

it’s for the first journey. And there’s a lot of anxiety. There’s a lot of unknownness. I mean,

01:16:35 ►

you’re literally just stepping into the unknown. It’s something unlike ever you’ve experienced

01:16:38 ►

before. And they want somebody that’s gone through there. A lot of people come through

01:16:43 ►

referrals. I’ve worked with people they’ve known that there’s a deep sense of trust that comes in.

01:16:48 ►

And my job is to make it to go smooth as possible, which is always really does. And so they have that

01:16:54 ►

kind of association that this could be a very positive and good experience anchored in.

01:17:00 ►

The second time people come in, it’s twice as easy because all that anxiety of the unknown they’ve gone through this before you know it’s like going on a first date versus a

01:17:08 ►

second it’s like you know what you’re getting into who this person is what the setup is like

01:17:11 ►

you know there’s a lot of anxiety the first time you meet somebody um but this is you’re not just

01:17:15 ►

meeting me you’re meeting a whole new level of your own consciousness you know it’s a lot easier

01:17:20 ►

the second time and what i’ve seen with people like i’ve worked with over years after they’ve

01:17:24 ►

come and done it a few times they do branch out and start experimenting on their own

01:17:28 ►

um with family with friends there’s more security they’ve also transformed a bit um

01:17:35 ►

what’s good the first few times if you work with somebody is because if there is and a lot of

01:17:40 ►

people know ahead of time sometimes they don’t that if there’s deep underlying trauma that might all. Right. And so you want somebody there to take care of it. I mean, I’ve worked with a few people that had deep sexual childhood trauma that they had no idea about.

01:18:04 ►

we would want to realize like i was molested by a family member when as a child i had no idea the memories are coming up but this explains so much of what’s happened in my life right

01:18:08 ►

that’s a big life event for them and you know especially if they’re in their 40s 50s and so

01:18:12 ►

on they’re like fuck um and so there’s a lot to unpack and hold a person and walk them through

01:18:17 ►

and we do integrations and so on but once a lot of the stuff that’s been repressed kind of comes

01:18:21 ►

up and it feels stable a lot of people do practice on their own and then they come back to me for just big journeys you know where we’ll work with higher

01:18:28 ►

grams and just go more intentional so they go off and do their own stuff but they do come back to me

01:18:32 ►

periodically just for some deep dives thanks yeah anybody else want to get a question that

01:18:41 ►

haven’t we haven’t heard from today? Okay, go ahead, Rio.

01:18:48 ►

This one I don’t know if you’ve looked at,

01:18:54 ►

but it comes up in the context of psilocybin being quite ubiquitous around the world.

01:18:59 ►

And, of course, leads into the stone ape theory that we’ve discussed.

01:19:12 ►

An area that I’ve done some work in, but I don’t hear it discussed very often, is the datura, which is also found pretty much in most places in the world.

01:19:21 ►

And one, if you’ve done anything looking at that, or the relationship that could exist between datura and psilocybin. and uh suicide yeah no i haven’t a whole lot seen i think uh carlos castaneda’s work whenever he was

01:19:27 ►

young was one of the first kind of introductions towards it i’ve had to when i went into my

01:19:33 ►

dissertation there’s a few years i wanted to focus on all psychedelics you know because i play i

01:19:38 ►

think they’re all evolutionary they all change our consciousness and and it can be very transformative

01:19:42 ►

and after a while i had to become very clear that

01:19:45 ►

it was too wide of a field because i wanted to really cover it very well and i decided on

01:19:51 ►

psilocybin which was limiting and freeing uh the positive was i could pretty much read every book

01:19:56 ►

on psilocybin there wasn’t there’s enough i can cover that ground in a few years but if i open

01:20:00 ►

it to all psychedelics that’s a lifetime of work And it would be hard to put it into pages.

01:20:05 ►

My dissertation was like three times longer than it needed to be.

01:20:07 ►

So for myself and to be able to get something out into the world, I had to limit my scope.

01:20:12 ►

And so I did a deep dive into that medicine.

01:20:15 ►

That being said, in my personal life, I think they’re all amazing.

01:20:19 ►

Datura, you may know more than me, but I think something that back is i know i believe it can be poisonous and disorienting right and so you would have to get high level facilitators

01:20:30 ►

very skilled it’s something i couldn’t promote for people to go experiment on their own so the

01:20:35 ►

because of accessibility and degree of harmfulness it’s something that i felt i wouldn’t be able as

01:20:41 ►

to um promote or educate the public on because I wouldn’t want them to go try it.

01:20:46 ►

Any other questions for people we haven’t heard from today?

01:20:51 ►

We have another one in chat.

01:20:53 ►

Besides inducing an altered state, how do we facilitate paradigm change on an individual level with someone in need?

01:20:59 ►

How can we facilitate those breakthroughs and internal motivation, whether they’re in an altered state or not?

01:21:10 ►

Yeah, the work’s ongoing, whether you’re on the state or not. So I think getting some good maps on paradigms, you know, Wilbur work is amazing. I think spiral dynamics is another,

01:21:15 ►

because people have been mapping these out for decades based on, you know, where I’m bringing

01:21:21 ►

in these models because they’re basing their research on hundreds of researchers, right? It’s not just somebody coming up with a theory on their own. This is like very well structured and networked and graphed out and there’s been communities around these that have really kind of helped refine it.

01:21:46 ►

under it. I think a compassionate kind of approach is going to be by far the best. As I mentioned,

01:21:52 ►

anytime people feel judgment, they tend to guard, protect, or they’re scared of feeling rejected. So any kind of value system that something is better than something else, or you’re not enough,

01:21:57 ►

is going to cause some kind of breakdown. As we keep moving up into paradigms, a part of the

01:22:03 ►

structure, and I think it’s a part of the structure of our deep reality is that we are love and we are interconnected and so on. So

01:22:09 ►

I think it needs to be shared with a person holding that sense of presence already. So a sense that

01:22:15 ►

this person is okay, help them feel safe, help them feel loved and encouraged, bring their self-esteem up it’s like seeing a plant grow given enough nutrients

01:22:28 ►

and sunlight it grows very well to become what it’s supposed to be right and so i think it’s

01:22:33 ►

same with humans given the right conditions the right set and setting the right kind of love and

01:22:37 ►

attention and the nutrients it needs people grow to become what they’re supposed to and rushing the

01:22:42 ►

process isn’t helpful right i can’t get mad at a seedling for not being a tree. It will become one one day. And so I think just,

01:22:49 ►

again, being that love and just helping the person wherever they’re at is the right approach

01:22:53 ►

instead of having them have the idea that they’re supposed to be something other than what they are.

01:23:00 ►

And to bring this to a landing and to build on what you’re describing there, a lot of the current psychedelic conversations about medicalization and legalization have a lot to do with individual healing, about the individual’s anxiety or trauma or depression or needs that stem from being under-resourced in some way in their life and feeling that absence of wholeness that you’re describing. Now, I was speaking to a couple of elders

01:23:30 ►

in the community who have a lot of experience from the 1960s at the Bicycle Day a few weeks ago,

01:23:36 ►

Mountain Girl and Roni Stanley. And Roni, of course, created millions of doses with Owsley.

01:23:42 ►

And they were saying, well, all of that’s well and good, but what we need is psychedelics for world peace. And there is an element there of how do we move

01:23:51 ►

the conversation, in your view, from these transactional into individual interventions

01:23:56 ►

that are required to get people to a baseline where they can show up in the collective,

01:24:01 ►

to shifting the conversation about psychedelics towards this sense that you articulate

01:24:05 ►

in the book that species evolution is collective and these tools are designed to bring us as a

01:24:10 ►

collective into the next phase so how do we move from this individual phase that we’re at now to a

01:24:15 ►

more collective concept of using psychedelics for our species growth thanks i think it’s multi-layered

01:24:21 ►

first we need enough individuals that can rise to have those conversations. A lot of people, because they’re in their wounding, understandably systemic change. I didn’t necessarily mean to be

01:24:46 ►

a guide. It kind of just really unfolded in that direction very organically, but I wanted to be

01:24:52 ►

a professor and kind of have a platform and teach and kind of work on a larger scale.

01:24:56 ►

But I’ve learned a lot from the guide work on the one-to-one level.

01:25:01 ►

People need to feel a part of a larger whole to really care about the whole you know so they need

01:25:06 ►

to have that sense of usness and kind of collectiveness um to even i think entertain

01:25:12 ►

those conversations uh psychedelics themselves can be very vulnerable you know again a lot of

01:25:16 ►

times you don’t know what’s going to come up so you need some level of people feeling

01:25:19 ►

secure enough to have these experiences with other people. Personally, though, like I know,

01:25:25 ►

just the medical model, and so on, a lot of times one to one, and there’s the ceremonial indigenous

01:25:30 ►

context with some level of group kind of dynamics, but normally based on more indigenous cultures

01:25:35 ►

and beliefs. And then there’s like a recreational, you know, scene that has given me a lot, you know,

01:25:40 ►

I think it’s not talked about enough. But that’s also because it’s not necessarily for everybody right now, but experiences like Burning Man and festivals and even just journeying with just friends has been so transformative.

01:25:52 ►

To feel play, somebody that tends to be very serious, but have this deep sense of play with other humans has been deeply healing.

01:25:59 ►

Seeing all the artwork and creativity help us imagine what else could possibly happen if we kind of all came together you know burning man’s a good situation where 70 000 people come together

01:26:09 ►

and it’s burning man’s almost pretty much came out of psychedelic experiences you know came together

01:26:13 ►

we build a city together for a week i mean it’s really beautiful nobody’s getting paid right i

01:26:18 ►

mean this is ridiculous it’s like we’re able to pull off large scale stuff um an incredible

01:26:24 ►

infrastructure in a week

01:26:25 ►

if we all get together.

01:26:26 ►

So I think that kind of really shows us

01:26:29 ►

what else could possibly happen.

01:26:33 ►

I think the science needs to keep moving forward

01:26:35 ►

in education where people see how effective this is.

01:26:38 ►

And including how, and there has been some research,

01:26:40 ►

but I think it continues of how it does help with empathy,

01:26:43 ►

help with creativity, group bonding, and so on.

01:26:46 ►

So it gets really legitimized so people can bring it into, say, peer-to-peer counseling

01:26:50 ►

or, I mean, it’s been one of those longtime dreams where people have been saying since

01:26:54 ►

the 60s that world leaders need to take psychedelics, right?

01:26:57 ►

They need to feel, though, for world leaders to do it, that the stigma is not as high because

01:27:02 ►

they can’t be doing something illegal, right?

01:27:03 ►

Or they can’t be doing something woo-woo or so alternative.

01:27:05 ►

So it needs to be embraced by conventional society to a degree.

01:27:09 ►

They need to feel safe.

01:27:10 ►

They need a strong backing and so on.

01:27:12 ►

And they’re putting themselves in a very vulnerable position.

01:27:14 ►

So they need to have all their boxes in check before kind of coming to it.

01:27:19 ►

But it’d be so amazing to have world leaders that were psychedelically inspired.

01:27:25 ►

That’s a wonderful place to leave it for today.

01:27:29 ►

Jahan Hamzazadeh, thank you so much for joining us.

01:27:32 ►

The book is The Psilocybin Connection, Psychedelics,

01:27:35 ►

the Transformation of Consciousness and Evolution on the Planet.

01:27:39 ►

Jahan, where can people find your work online?

01:27:41 ►

Yeah, totally.

01:27:41 ►

Some websites, psychedelicevolution.org.

01:27:46 ►

It’s on all of the platforms right now in terms of Amazon, the Barnes and Nobles target, the audio book comes out, uh,

01:27:52 ►

May 31st. Um, there’s a dispute between penguin random house and Amazon right now. So there,

01:27:58 ►

they just took off the, the ability to buy the audio book, um, from there right now on audible,

01:28:03 ►

it’ll come back later, but on the 31st,

01:28:05 ►

it’ll be available on all other platforms like Google play,

01:28:07 ►

Apple,

01:28:08 ►

and so on.

01:28:09 ►

I’m halfway through listening to the audio book right now.

01:28:11 ►

We’ve got a great narrator for it.

01:28:14 ►

Fantastic.

01:28:14 ►

Well,

01:28:14 ►

thank you so much for joining us today.

01:28:16 ►

And until next time,

01:28:17 ►

everybody keep the old faith and stay high.

01:28:20 ►

Such an honor.

01:28:21 ►

Thank you.

01:28:24 ►

Before I say anything else, I want to point out an expression that Jahan used just now that, well, it really blows me away.

01:28:31 ►

When he was talking about being deep in a psychedelic experience, he described the territory as enchanted reality.

01:28:39 ►

I’d never heard Entheospace described that way before, and, well, it really hits home for me.

01:28:45 ►

in Theospace described that way before, and well, it really hits home for me. So the next time that you’re out in nature while under the spell of some magic mushrooms, it may be fun to realize that you

01:28:50 ►

are in an enchanted reality. Instead of recalling some of my favorite psychedelic experiences, I’m

01:28:56 ►

now going to instead recall some voyages that I took into an enchanted reality. I just love that

01:29:03 ►

idea. And I have to admit being drawn by the subtitle of Jahan’s book,

01:29:08 ►

which is Psychedelics, the Transformation of Consciousness,

01:29:11 ►

and Evolution on the Planet.

01:29:14 ►

You see, big ideas like that really attract me.

01:29:17 ►

The subtitle that I used for The Spirit of the Internet

01:29:20 ►

when I published it in the summer of 2000

01:29:22 ►

is Speculations on the Evolution of Global

01:29:25 ►

Consciousness. So you can see why his book got my attention. One of the things that Jahan said

01:29:31 ►

that really hit home with me as well is the fact that if these substances are declared legal,

01:29:37 ►

then many more people may be drawn to investigate them. I can attest to that personally. When I had my first experience with MDMA, it was only the

01:29:47 ►

third drug that I’d ever tried. The first two were nicotine and alcohol, both of which are legal.

01:29:54 ►

But in the spring of 1984, a lawyer friend of mine told me about ecstasy, MDMA, and at that time it

01:30:01 ►

was still legal. So here I was, a 42-year-old Vietnam veteran

01:30:05 ►

who had never even tried marijuana because it was illegal.

01:30:09 ►

Had MDMA been illegal at that time,

01:30:12 ►

well, you and I most likely wouldn’t be sharing this moment in cyberspace right now.

01:30:16 ►

But it was legal, I tried it, and here we are.

01:30:21 ►

So if you’re looking for a good summer read

01:30:23 ►

that will give you some new food for thought,

01:30:25 ►

and on top of that, if you happen to be reading it on the beach or in an airport lounge, it also

01:30:31 ►

can be a great way to bring psychedelics into a conversation with a stranger. Who knows, that

01:30:36 ►

person could become your new best friend. Until next time, this is Lorenzo signing off from

01:30:42 ►

Cyberdelic Space. Namaste my friends!

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

679 - The Psilocybin Connection

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Program Notes

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