298 - Terence McKenna_ Beyond 2012 Part 1

Program Notes

Guest speakers: Bruce Damer and Lorenzo Hagerty

Today’s podcast features the first of the recordings from last weekend’s workshop (titled “Terence McKenna: Beyond 2012”) that Bruce Damer and Lorenzo led in the Los Angeles area on January 28, 2012. In addition to Lorenzo’s remarks and some comments by those in attendance, three videos created by Bruce Damer were shown. Those videos are embedded below.

The second part of the podcast is the Occupy Movement update, which features a conversation between Lawrence Lessig and Chris Hedges. During the course of their conversation they debate the relative merits of pushing for a Constitutional Convention verses non-violent civil disobedience. Also included is a sound bite from one of OccupyFreedomLA’s live video feeds in which a speaker addresses the actions now being taken by those who are suffering from the foreclosure epidemic that is facing so many people in the U.S.

Video of the first session of the workshop

Books mentioned in this podcast
Land Without Evil: A Novel
By Matthew J. Pallamary

Death of the Liberal Class
By Chris Hedges

Republic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress—and a Plan to Stop It
By Lawrence Lessig

OCCUPY SEGMENT:
“The Occupy Movement seems deeply rational for not engaging in normal politics, because normal politics gets us Barack Obama.” -Lawrence Lessig

“All of the correctives to American democracy came through movements that never achieved formal political power.” -Chris Hedges

“Which in my mind means the system is not reformable but will have to be pushed aside. And I think in that sense the Occupy Movement is, in sort of classical terms, correctly defined as a revolutionary movement.” -Chris Hedges

“The legislative branches, both at the state and the federal level, are wholly owned subsidiaries of the corporate state.” -Chris Hedges

“But this is a moment, this is more the French Revolution moment. This is a moment when everything is falling apart at the same time, and it’s another reason to be pushing on every front at the same time.” -Lawrence Lessig

This is the YouTube video from which I extracted some of the audio for this podcast.

Transcript

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Greetings from Cyberdelic Space, this is Lorenzo, I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon

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and today is day

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140 of occupy wall street to begin with i would like to thank our fellow saloners who either made

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a direct donation to the salon or who purchased one of my books your support is greatly appreciated

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and goes directly to offsetting some of the expenses associated with these podcasts. And also I want to send thanks out to you for spreading the word about these podcasts

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and to helping to continually expand our family here in the salon.

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You know, we’re all in this together, as you well know.

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Now, for today’s program, I should warn you up front that, well, you’re going to hear a lot from me today,

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because in addition to my comments about the Occupy Movement, which will follow the recording I’m going to play first,

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well, in addition to that, what I’m going to play for you today is the first of the recordings from last weekend’s workshop

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that Bruce Dahmer and I led in the L.A. area last Saturday.

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Bruce Dahmer and I led in the LA area last Saturday.

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It looks like I’ll be able to play most of what was recorded that day in this and the next two podcasts after this,

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which I’ll try to release a little faster than one a week if I can.

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And as the program turned out on Saturday, I was the first speaker.

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And so when Bruce followed me, much of his presentation, the first part of it, was in multimedia format, so it isn’t included in this podcast.

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However, never fear, I’ll be passing along the links to those video pieces, and you can

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watch them on YouTube.

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So by the time the next three podcasts are completed, you’ll have probably heard about

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80% of the material that was presented that day.

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have probably heard about 80% of the material that was presented that day.

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So now, without any further ado, here is a recording of the opening session of a workshop led by Bruce Dahmer and myself on the 28th of January, 2012, and it was titled Terrence

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McKenna Beyond 2012.

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I too would like to welcome you here and point out that probably the most important thing that’s going to take place today is meeting other people.

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I mean, that’s what these little things are about.

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And as much as I don’t like leaving my cave and I don’t like to travel and the Internet’s great,

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it still falls way short of something like this where we can meet each other.

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falls way short of something like this where we can meet each other.

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And what I found is that rather than us send everybody the mailing list,

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because everybody doesn’t even want to be on an emailing list,

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is that get together with each other and try to meet somebody that you didn’t know when you got here.

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Get their email address. You’d be amazed at how something like this can turn into a long-term friendship.

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You know, you never know what can happen in these conferences, and it’s all good.

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So I really appreciate you coming here today.

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Bruce and I will, this is the first of the 2012 events that Bruce and I will be doing,

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and Bruce is going to be doing a lot more than me.

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We will be doing one at Esalen, Burning Man,

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and then there’s going to be some kind of a spectacular close of the year to be announced.

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But this is special to me for many reasons,

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that this particular room is one where Terrence spoke several times,

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and it’s also where we held the wave.

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It was a combination of a wake and a rave for Terrence,

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and there were several hundred people here.

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We were a bigger crowd than this.

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There were no chairs.

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We were all just crammed in.

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And those of you who have heard my podcast and know the music, the background,

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the last time Chateau Hayouk played live was right here on this stage for Terrence’s Wave.

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So this room has a lot of meaning for many of us for many reasons.

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So this room has a lot of meaning for many of us for many reasons.

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Now today what we’re going to do is we’re going to kind of split the day into two parts.

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This morning, or I should say the first half of the day, is going to be a lot about Terrence McKenna, a lot of tributes.

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And then the afternoon we’re going to kind of spin off and talk about ideas that Terrence has placed into our minds and things that he gets you to think about.

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And we don’t want to make a saint of Terrence. And as Dennis’s book will point out at the end of the year, he definitely had feet of clay.

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But we do want to honor what Terrence has done in bringing us all together one way or another.

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Terrence has done in bringing us all together one way or another. My part is this morning,

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I’m really not going to talk about Terrence, even though the first half is about Terrence.

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I’m going to talk about how we got here, and then this afternoon, where it’s maybe possible to go.

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But when we talk about how we got here, I know a lot of you, most of you I’m meeting in person for the first time.

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Many of you I’ve met online.

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And, of course, Terrence McKenna has been the draw,

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even for the people that didn’t know Bruce and I ahead of time.

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But Terrence, the first time I saw him,

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and most of you in this room probably have known about Terrence McKenna a lot longer than me.

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I only first heard about him in a Mondo 2000 article in

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And so I was a very late comer to this whole Terrence McKenna archaic revival. And that’s what

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he was talking about at the first workshop I went to that he gave was the archaic revival.

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And if we’ve listened to Terrence enough, you’ve heard him talk about that. But I like to dig in a little bit and see what did he really mean by an archaic revival.

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And this is just my take on it, but I think he was talking more about the type of consciousness that prevailed in archaic times,

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not necessarily living in an archaic society.

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I think the tech is very important right now. But here we are today

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in essentially, no matter what our cultural background is, we’re living in a Western

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Judeo-Christian society. And so how did we get here from an archaic mind to the society we’re in right now. And I took a look back as when, how far back can we go to say

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that, well, this is an archaic society. My particular decision on the thing was it happened back

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several thousand years ago and came to a head with the mysteries of Eleusis. And the guy that

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first talked about it that I heard about before I read The Road to Eleusis. And the guy that first talked about it, that I heard about

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before I read The Road to Elusis by Hoffman and Ruck, was Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell has

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this great series called Mythos, Mythos 1 and Mythos 2. They’re available at Netflix. And each

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of them have five episodes. And first uh five episodes are about the foundation

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of the human mind and he starts 200 000 years ago and through the first four programs and in

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program five he says okay now how did this all come to a head what is the culmination of 200 000

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years of humans uh starting to uh recite poetry and sing and dance and create works of art.

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And Campbell said, in his opinion, the high point of the ancient world was Eleusis,

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the word that you write at Eleusis.

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And I want to read what Cicero wrote about that,

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and you’ll see where I’m getting to by the time I get under this one paragraph. Cicero wrote, and he wrote this, I think, about 100 BC.

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For it appears to me that among the many exceptional and divine things your Athens

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has produced and contributed to human life, nothing is better than those mysteries. For by

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means of them, we have transformed from a rough

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and savage way of life to the state of humanity and have been civilized, just as they are called

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initiations. So in actual fact, we have learned the fundamentals of life and have grasped the

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basis not only for living with joy, but also dying with better hope. And those of us who have,

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you know, been studying the psychedelic world for a long time can definitely start seeing some

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pieces there of a psychedelic mindset. And Hoffman and Ruck wrote this book, The Road to Elusis,

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that at least for me has very conclusively proven that essentially Eleusis,

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the mysteries of Eleusis were, well, the central part of it was an acid trip, basically.

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And so it was definitely a psychedelic society that they were creating.

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And at Eleusis, the mysteries went on for several thousand years.

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There were periods where it went down and there wasn’t much and it’d come down and up.

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But this is, the rites of Eleusis is where Western civilization came out of. Socrates, Plato,

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you know, Aristotle, they all went through the rites. Almost every one of the ancient philosophers

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that we’ve read of went through these rites of the mysteries of Eleusis. And Campbell said that

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the, here’s what he said about them, the essence of the spiritual experience, and the rites of Eleusis were a spiritual experience,

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the essence intended at Eleusis is that of shifting consciousness

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from the purely phenomenological aspect of one’s life to the spiritual,

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the deep, the energetic, eternal aspect.

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And that’s Joseph Campbell.

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Again, it doesn’t take any reading between the lines to see that

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what they’re really talking about is a shift in consciousness and of course that elusives and in

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in uh today’s uh psychedelic community a lot of people are shifting their consciousness and what

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we want to talk about today of course is at the end of the day is uh once you shift it uh where

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you shift it to and then what do you do once you’ve shifted into high gear? You know, there’s a little trick there. But I think that we’re all here today

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because somehow we have come into this world with an archaic resonance in our mind. We,

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I think, do have sort of an archaic mindset, and that’s what draws us

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to things like psychedelics and Terrence McKenna and people like that, is they were talking about

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things that have been, well, they’ve been a no-no for a long time. And I think going back

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into the history is what Terrence is talking about as archaic. And, of course, there’s a question, would we be here

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and know about Terrence if there was no such thing as a war on drugs? Because when Terrence

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first started in the 70s and 80s, and a lot of us have heard a lot of these old tapes now,

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it’s pretty obvious that there was no World Wide Web, there was no Arrowhead. I only learned about psychedelics in the 80s.

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I was in Dallas, Texas.

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And in Dallas, Texas in 86, you didn’t find out much about psychedelics or pot or anything else.

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Back then, you could get 30 years in prison for one single joint, as a guy did in Dallas at the time I was living there.

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So these things were not talked about, particularly outside of the West Coast

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where Terrence was going up and down the coast.

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And he was really the person that started bringing this back after, you know, the Nixon’s war on drugs.

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So I started looking at the war on drugs, and we’ve got Nixon.

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You go back to the 30s when the stamp tax for marijuana.

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But if you really want to see when the war on drugs began

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and start figuring out why it began,

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I’m going to put a date on the beginning of the war on drugs of 425 BCE

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because the rights had been going on for almost, well,

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probably 2,000 years at that point in time.

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had been going on for almost, well, probably 2,000 years at that point in time. But at that point in time is the first known record of a law being passed, the state law, because the rights were

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secret. Nobody was supposed to talk about them. But what happened is the jet setters of the day

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found out how to make this little potion, and they were having some parties. And so it became a fence

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against the state to do anything about the mysteries, to talk about them, to take them out

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of context. And that was in 425 BC. But in around 300 BC, the state actually took control of the

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rites. And that’s when it got expanded terrifically to where anybody could go to the

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rites of Eleusis, even slaves. The only requirement was is that you had no blood on your hands,

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you hadn’t murdered someone. And so at that time, they really expanded it. And I did a little

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research about what the rites were like, because they didn’t really talk about them much. But around that time, in that 300 to 200 B.C.,

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the description that Wasson and Ruck give of the rites to me sounded like a horror show.

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These people would be fasting and they’d have processions.

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But the night of the mysteries, they would go to the temple

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and they’d get dosed with

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with whatever it was we don’t know for sure but it was an acid-like substance and then there was

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all this this uh there was music and sound and light shows in the temple basically i think they

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just scared the hell out of these people and gave them a bad trip. And then they were in line, you know, the gods spoke.

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And back those days, if you remember, the temples were essentially like the Federal

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Reserve.

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They were the central bank, and everybody stored all their treasures there.

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And so if you were scared out of your socks because you had a bad acid trip at the temple,

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you weren’t about to go up there and rob the place.

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Now, this is all my own take on it. And I’m expanding it for

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my novel I’m working on. But you can read in between the lines your own way on those things.

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But I think there was something like that that maybe took place. But remember what Campbell said.

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It was a shifting of consciousness, the archaic minds shifting to the logos. And we’re going to

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play a soundbite here in just a second.

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But what I want to propose, and then I’m going to kind of open the floor and see if some of you would like to contribute to how you got here and why you’re here.

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And see if maybe we can find some community among us, some common threads, because I think that what happened is the logos, that was

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this voice in the back of our heads back in pre-Homeric times, got silenced.

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And what we need to do is to start listening to these little voices.

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Now, of course, you know, they say, well, you start talking about voices in your head

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and you’re going to wind up restrained and in an institution.

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But I really think there is something there. It’s intuition. in your head, and you’re going to wind up restrained and in an institution.

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But I really think there is something there.

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It’s intuition.

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It’s whatever you want to call it. But the question is, can we reinstitute the logos from the archaic mind?

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We can release this thing once again.

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I mean, the logos can be unleashed once again. I mean, the logos can be unleashed once again, and the voice that spoke

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to Plato and Parmenides and Heraclitus, that voice can speak again in the minds of modern

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people. And when it does, the alienation will be ended because we will have become the alien.

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Because we will have become the alien.

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We’re here because we’re aliens.

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Now, if like me, you’ve gone home for the holidays in the past,

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and you sit around the Thanksgiving dinner table,

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and your relatives look at you and think you’re an alien,

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well, there’s a reason for it.

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And I don’t know how many of you have really just realized,

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and should be waking up right this moment, that we are aliens.

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And we are an alien group.

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We have descended from the mothership.

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We landed here. It was a crash landing.

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And it’s taken us all these damn years to get assembled.

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We were supposed to get together, us group here, we were supposed to get together 15 years ago.

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And, you know, we all got lost when we parachuted down, assembled.

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Some of the ships crashed.

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We lost a few pilots.

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We lost a few members of our crew here.

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But I want to welcome this alien group because I’m part of it.

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This is why we assembled.

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And here we are today. Finally,

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we’re all together. I’m happy to announce that the other groups have found each other for the

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most part. And I’ve just received word from our home planet that after today, our mission is to

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find the others. I think you’ve heard that before. So right now, since we’ve kind of found each other, I’d like to see if we can have just a few of you briefly just stand up and give us some ideas of how Terrence drew you here, why you’re here.

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A little bit of some of you can tell about your paths.

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And so we can start learning uh about how

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arduous our trip was to get here but now that we found one another we don’t want to let go so uh

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who would like to start off anybody uh oh yes well i just like a lot of you you know we’ve all been

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uh aliens and feeling very very alert and tuned in to what’s going on.

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Okay, can you hear me now? Okay, great.

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It’s been a long time. Many years ago when I was little, I had ships

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all around me and all that. And then through the years, going to Joshua Tree in the deserts,

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I’ve had continuing experiences. And

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going in and out of portals and whatever else.

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And to me, that was normal.

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It was just like, in fact, being on this planet, it was like strange.

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But those experiences, lots has happened.

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I think that we’ve been real open.

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I know I’ve been real open for a long time, receiving messages,

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the automatic writing,

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you know, channelings and spacing out, tripping out. And then it was a small phase or short phase where I felt like I had a bag over my head or something and I couldn’t hear. And what really

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drew me here, because I don’t want to make this long, is that there was a feeling that where is

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everybody? I know you’re somewhere.

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I know I could find you.

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And there have been friends like people back there,

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which I can’t remember right now, right?

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Kate and Connie.

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But it’s time for us to get together.

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And for me, it was like a draw, it was like a thing.

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And Connie sent a message and I go, yes, I’ve got to go.

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I don’t even know why, but I’ve got to go. Of course, we all Terrence, but it’s a wake up call. We know who we are. We know we’re weird. We’ve been weird all our life and it’s not going to stop. In fact,

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I like weird. So I think that’s pretty much, you know, in the edited version, it’s time. It’s time

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for us to use what we know to utilize each other’s talents and be for us to use what we know, to utilize each other’s talents,

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and be able to draw upon what we know, you know, and trust it, as we were talking.

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We’ve got to trust it.

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So that’s why I’m here, and I’m very grateful to be here because it’s lovely,

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and also the people who are speaking are great, and we’re family, and it feels right.

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And as I said, so enjoy the weird ride because it’s going to get even more weird.

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Thank you.

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And I do agree.

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We really are family.

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We have somebody else here that

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I’d like to give as many people a chance

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to talk as we can and

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then if we run out of time here

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in this first little session, there’s going to be

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two or three other times today you’ll have a chance

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because I’d like to make sure everybody has a chance to get their two cents in here.

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Francisco, and I’m so glad to be here as well.

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I was one of the fortunate few to grow up in San Francisco near the Hades,

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so that said a lot about where I was coming from.

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I think I was born into it.

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But since that time, you know,

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I’ve lived in spiritual communes and all that, but always felt this urge to find out and make

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this connection that, you know, we’re here talking about. The interesting thing is that every time

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I get together with people like you, a psychedelic conference where I met Bruce, for example, in Santa Cruz about a year or so ago.

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Instant communication.

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It’s like we’re right in tune.

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Went to the Amazon, did the ayahuasca thing.

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Again, it’s a spiritual community that gathers.

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That’s why I love to be around people like you,

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because to me, it’s an instant connection.

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We are family.

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So continue that.

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Continue looking for your other brethren

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and sister and, you know, just enjoy.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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So,

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any more? Yeah, come on up.

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That, just

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so that you know a little bit more of the schedule

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today, we’re going to

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be kind of going around

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hearing from each other. Then we’re going to be kind of going around, hearing from each other.

00:21:25 ►

Then we’re going to, Bruce is going to have a couple multimedia presentations.

00:21:30 ►

And then at lunchtime, right after we eat lunch, is going to be the premiere of Ken Adams’ film about Terrence,

00:21:35 ►

which I’ve seen twice already and can’t wait to see again.

00:21:38 ►

So we’ve got a big day ahead of us there, too.

00:21:41 ►

Thank you.

00:21:44 ►

My name is Phil. I’m from Freeport, Maine. And it just turned out that

00:21:51 ►

this conference coincided with a visit I’d already planned to visit my family out here

00:21:56 ►

on the West Coast. And I just hopped on that synchronicity and sent in my money.

00:22:02 ►

I have a story of early introduction to psychedelics,

00:22:06 ►

then 30-year hiatus, raising a family, working a job,

00:22:11 ►

and then read Daniel Pinchbeck,

00:22:16 ►

and that reunited me with mushrooms,

00:22:21 ►

and that led me to the psychedelic salon,

00:22:26 ►

which led me to Terrence McKenna.

00:22:27 ►

So thank you so much for that.

00:22:28 ►

I heard him speak, and it was like kaboom,

00:22:32 ►

instant rapport with his ideas and his presentation.

00:22:39 ►

Certainly agree with the whole theme of alienation

00:22:42 ►

and the pun alien nation.

00:22:48 ►

And the logo spoke to me at one point perfectly straight walking down the street where I wanted to look up in a tree and see if there was somebody playing a joke.

00:22:59 ►

It said, you are here to play attention.

00:23:04 ►

Oh, I love that.

00:23:10 ►

Talking about meeting people at conferences, it was at the last conference Terrence gave,

00:23:16 ►

the one that Ken produced along with Manuel over at the All Chemicals, is where I met Connie and Bruce.

00:23:22 ►

And so, you know, these conferences,

00:23:28 ►

Bruce and I have had a long friendship ever since then.

00:23:31 ►

So, you know, we are family, so let’s get to know each other.

00:23:32 ►

So, yeah.

00:23:34 ►

Hi, good morning.

00:23:38 ►

My name is Kevin, and I got turned on when I was in high school thanks to Jim Morrison.

00:23:41 ►

The movie The Doors came out,

00:23:44 ►

and I think I was the first in my peer group.

00:23:46 ►

I was like, that, what he took, was what I’m into.

00:23:49 ►

So I took LSD before cannabis and all that,

00:23:52 ►

and fortunately I was living in Florida,

00:23:54 ►

so mushrooms were plentiful in the summer.

00:23:58 ►

So I had that experience.

00:23:59 ►

Then a friend of mine played Terrence’s Alien Dreamtime CD,

00:24:03 ►

and it just floored me, just freaked me out.

00:24:06 ►

It scared me, because I grew up fundamentalist Christian,

00:24:08 ►

like, I was a witness, really, so, like, you know, really scared.

00:24:11 ►

I was like, is this satanic or what?

00:24:13 ►

But I was into it, and I read these books, and I’m a huge reader,

00:24:16 ►

so that all just kept going and avalanching.

00:24:20 ►

And for a time, I lived in Japan,

00:24:23 ►

and I was fortunate in Japan that mushrooms were legal, dried from Switzerland, Swiss labs and DMT was legal.

00:24:30 ►

So I could indulge in those and, you know, but I was alienated because I’m in a different culture.

00:24:35 ►

And then I was listening to the Internet radio.

00:24:38 ►

I didn’t have an iPod even then or MP3.

00:24:40 ►

And I found your podcast, Lorenzo’s podcast, I think 2005, even 2004, I don’t know.

00:24:46 ►

But I caught it and it just, I got back in the community.

00:24:50 ►

I took a hiatus and I’ve had a family and I’ve had that and I’m a teacher.

00:24:54 ►

So I did my career thing, but it just kept going.

00:24:57 ►

And the message, the logos, the whole thing, it’s been inspiration.

00:25:03 ►

It’s just changed my life pattern.

00:25:04 ►

It’s been my mind as well as everybody here, I’m sure, community.

00:25:09 ►

And I think everybody, you know,

00:25:11 ►

it’s fair talking when I get to see you or meet you.

00:25:13 ►

I’ve met some great people already.

00:25:15 ►

So thank you.

00:25:17 ►

Thank you.

00:25:18 ►

And the creator of Alien Dreamtime happens to be here

00:25:23 ►

because it’s Ken Adams who did the film we’re going to see today.

00:25:26 ►

So come on up.

00:25:29 ►

And in a minute, I’m going to see who heard of Terrence the Farthest Back.

00:25:34 ►

So start thinking when you first heard of Terrence.

00:25:37 ►

Hi, my name is Patrick, and I’m from Iowa.

00:25:40 ►

So definitely from all over.

00:25:42 ►

Okay, another.

00:25:44 ►

And I study philosophy at Loyola Marymount

00:25:46 ►

in their master’s program there. So your comments. Thank you for the introduction, Lorenzo.

00:25:52 ►

First time meeting you and Bruce. Thank you very much. And everybody, can’t wait to talk

00:25:56 ►

to you. I’m going to make this really brief. So it really struck home to think about the

00:26:02 ►

Logos in the way that I’ve learned it through the dialogues, Plato’s Dialogues,

00:26:05 ►

which is definitely an enactment of Logos

00:26:08 ►

that you should get into, I think,

00:26:10 ►

to pitch that for a second.

00:26:11 ►

But Logos, the most literal translation of Logos

00:26:14 ►

is gathering together,

00:26:16 ►

rather than language, reason, etc.

00:26:18 ►

And so I think you should take seriously,

00:26:20 ►

and we should all take seriously,

00:26:21 ►

because we’re all here, I think, because of Logos.

00:26:23 ►

I think it’s all present within us. It’s a shared thing. And I think that is ultimately what brings

00:26:28 ►

us together. I think each and every one of us has tapped into that. Everybody else has it and we

00:26:33 ►

want everybody else to tap into that. So thank you for that great introduction. And I can’t wait to

00:26:38 ►

meet everybody else. I’ve met Kyle. He’s been awesome. So yeah, looking forward to it. Welcome. Welcome.

00:26:45 ►

Yeah, come on up.

00:26:49 ►

My name is Eric.

00:26:52 ►

I am the owner of Guy and Botanicals, and the blog is erockx1.

00:26:56 ►

I wanted to be a hip-hop DJ when I was 15

00:27:00 ►

and got a chance to play a rave,

00:27:04 ►

and someone gave me LSD, and I wanted to be a techno DJ.

00:27:11 ►

And I got, I was in the Venice Beach area a lot and I got, I heard about Terrence McKenna, and I went to a conference he gave, and it was all on the I Ching.

00:27:30 ►

Like, where’s the mushrooms? Where’s the DMT? Where’s everything?

00:27:33 ►

It was all on the I Ching, and so I sort of lost interest and rediscovered him several years later.

00:27:42 ►

Lorenzo and Bruce, and I’ve been hearing them talk about doing this event.

00:27:46 ►

Didn’t you know Tim Larry?

00:27:47 ►

Yes, I did some audio conversions and a lot of free work.

00:27:54 ►

Tim liked free work.

00:27:56 ►

And so I did some graphic design, sound and lighting for him

00:28:01 ►

when I was 17, 18 years old.

00:28:03 ►

It was awesome.

00:28:04 ►

But it’s changed my life and

00:28:05 ►

I’m happy to be here and meet everybody. Who heard Terrence? Let’s see who heard Terrence,

00:28:13 ►

knew about Terrence and we won’t count Ken, doesn’t get to count. Who heard Terrence in the

00:28:19 ►

80s? Wow, look at that. Man, it makes me, anybody hear him in the 70s whoa that’s the record i think that uh

00:28:30 ►

uh i just learned this the other day that i think that maybe the first uh a real way to get his name

00:28:38 ►

out into the general public outside of the little uh lecture circuit he was in was when Robert Anton Wilson mentioned the time wave in Cosmic Trigger.

00:28:48 ►

And I think that was in 79 or maybe before.

00:28:52 ►

It was in the 70s.

00:28:53 ►

And that probably got him really going.

00:28:57 ►

I know that Mary C. got to hear him at the talk in, what was it called?

00:29:04 ►

It was UC Santaara that and everybody was

00:29:07 ►

there it was albert hoffman richard evans schultes uh uh alan uh uh andrew weill that’s his name and

00:29:17 ►

oh leary all the the general suspects were there and uh i i didn’t know mary c then but uh they were up she was up

00:29:27 ►

there with some friends and they still talk about because there was a cancellation on the program

00:29:31 ►

and somebody everybody wanted to see couldn’t show up and you know he’s not here and everyone

00:29:36 ►

but we’ve got this guy we we’re filling in we think you’ll like him his name is terence mckenna

00:29:41 ►

and to this day these people don’t remember anything that

00:29:45 ►

Hoffman or Schultes or Leary or Sasha or any of those said. They just remembered McKenna. And it

00:29:51 ►

was a really big break for him. So is anybody else at that conference in 83? Wow. Okay. So let me ask,

00:30:00 ►

I want to get Mateo up here for a minute to tell a story about, and he’s known Terrence for a while, and he went through some hoops to get this book to Terrence.

00:30:14 ►

I didn’t know Mateo back then, but in 99, September, I think it was, there was the All Chemical Arts meeting in Hawaii, and Terrence is walking around with this book.

00:30:26 ►

arts meeting in Hawaii. And Terrence is walking around with this book. And Mary C kept saying,

00:30:30 ►

we’ve got to see the name of this book. You know, he’s dying and he’s still reading books.

00:30:34 ►

It must be an important book. So I’ll let Mateo pick up the story now.

00:30:40 ►

Thank you, because he’s going to finish it. I’m a perspiring writer, as some of you know.

00:30:44 ►

This is the book. I’m not plugging it it even though it’s for sale over there i will plug connie

00:30:45 ►

cds they’re over there for sure but um i’ve been teaching at the santa barbara writers conference

00:30:51 ►

for over 20 years and when i was a student there i read a short horror story about a guy who

00:30:57 ►

overdosed on psychedelics and lost his mind and when i was finished all these acid heads came out of the woodwork, and this little old lady, she was like 97 years old.

00:31:08 ►

She was a psychologist, and she did some of the original LSD studies in Hawaii.

00:31:13 ►

She had these bright blue eyes, and she wanted my story,

00:31:16 ►

so I gave it to her, and she started sending me cassettes of Terrence,

00:31:20 ►

who I’d never heard of.

00:31:21 ►

So I went to the Entheobotany Seminar in 98, and I met Terrence, and I told him the story,

00:31:26 ►

and I gave him a copy of the collection.

00:31:28 ►

It’s over there.

00:31:29 ►

And he dug it because he’s always had that literary bent.

00:31:33 ►

So I went to Palenque for four years,

00:31:36 ►

and when he was passing, my novel,

00:31:39 ►

the one I just showed you, was coming out,

00:31:41 ►

and I couldn’t make it to the conference,

00:31:43 ►

and I wanted him to have a copy

00:31:44 ►

because I knew he was getting close to the end.

00:31:46 ►

So a brother, a lot of people may know who goes by Paloka.

00:31:50 ►

The day that the books came from the publisher, he called me 10 o’clock that night and he says, I’m going to the all chemical.

00:31:57 ►

I said, shit, when you’re going, he says, I’m leaving in the morning.

00:32:00 ►

And I said, when you’re going to bed, he says, I’m not.

00:32:01 ►

I’m staying up all night.

00:32:03 ►

And I was in San Diego and he was in L.A. So I said, I’m on my bed, he says, I’m not. I’m staying up all night. And I was in San Diego, and he was in L.A.

00:32:06 ►

So I said, I’m on my way.

00:32:08 ►

So I got in my car.

00:32:09 ►

The book that Terrence got was the absolute very first book from the printing.

00:32:13 ►

I got a little care package for Terrence.

00:32:16 ►

I drove up.

00:32:17 ►

I met Paloka.

00:32:18 ►

We hung for a couple of hours.

00:32:20 ►

I gave him the book and everything.

00:32:21 ►

I turned around, got back home.

00:32:23 ►

It was 6 o’clock in the morning.

00:32:24 ►

I slammed a whole shitload of coffee, went to work all day,

00:32:27 ►

and I got the book off to Terrence, which felt really good

00:32:31 ►

because we had a nice connection.

00:32:33 ►

And then…

00:32:35 ►

So we’ve been following Terrence around,

00:32:38 ►

trying to see the name on the book and everything.

00:32:41 ►

But the closing ceremony at the all chemical arts conference uh

00:32:47 ►

at the very last thing and it’s the very last time i saw terrence is that it was in a room about like

00:32:51 ►

this i think actually about this size and we put it must have been awkward for him he had to sit on

00:32:57 ►

a chair in the middle of the room and then we all laid down on the floor with our heads toward him

00:33:01 ►

while connie played for uh, played music. And we all

00:33:05 ►

sent all this, this love and harmony and stuff to him. And it’s, it’s literally the last time I saw

00:33:10 ►

Terrence. And so when I hear Connie’s music, of course, I think of Terrence and he was sitting

00:33:14 ►

there in the chair holding Mateo’s book. Uh, of course I didn’t know Matt then or Mateo. And so

00:33:20 ►

a few weeks later I was at an event and, uh and there’s this really loud, obnoxious guy next to me who was just irritating the hell out of me until he opened his bag and his book fell out.

00:33:32 ►

And we said, hey, where’d you get that?

00:33:34 ►

And he said, well, I wrote it.

00:33:38 ►

So we’ve been friends ever since, too.

00:33:40 ►

But he’s still pretty irritating.

00:33:43 ►

I’m just narrowed on the shadow. too but he’s still pretty irritating yeah so does somebody else have some uh terence

00:33:49 ►

remembrances they’d like to add right now or uh anybody else uh any any things like that

00:33:54 ►

oh connie yeah you just reminded me uh at that conference i was playing the space base which

00:34:01 ►

we’ll hear later and everybody in the room went into prayer and intention with the tones,

00:34:08 ►

and we used the tones to send them to his condition.

00:34:13 ►

And I got home, and it felt wonderful.

00:34:16 ►

It just felt so great.

00:34:17 ►

And I have a great psychic facilitator who has fantastic sight.

00:34:20 ►

And I said, so what happened?

00:34:21 ►

What happened?

00:34:22 ►

She said, it actually changed it.

00:34:24 ►

And I said, you’re kidding. She said, but you know, he was so used to it and he was so ready to go

00:34:30 ►

that he put it back the way it was because he was so used to it. And I went, okay, well,

00:34:36 ►

just a little tidbit. That will tie into his, that story ties in quite well. In fact,

00:34:44 ►

I haven’t told Bruce I’m going to do this,

00:34:45 ►

but you want to talk about what you saw, the vision you had during that time?

00:34:49 ►

Go ahead.

00:34:50 ►

We’re lying on the floor.

00:34:52 ►

I had, you know, you could do anything you want.

00:34:55 ►

The intention was you could send him healing energy.

00:34:57 ►

You could, you know, imagine meeting him,

00:35:00 ►

and thereafter you could do anything you wanted while Connie played.

00:35:04 ►

And I just lay down

00:35:05 ►

and I have a kind of brain that as soon as my head hits the ground, the virtual world just,

00:35:13 ►

it just starts. I don’t have to have taken anything. And so as soon as my head hit that

00:35:18 ►

carpet, the room cleared. I had my eyes closed. The room was empty. It was an infinite green plain.

00:35:26 ►

And there was Terrence.

00:35:27 ►

I was an observer.

00:35:28 ►

There was Terrence sitting kind of cross-legged in his way.

00:35:31 ►

And I thought, okay, this is the start of something.

00:35:36 ►

So I just fell into that space, and I heard a whirring sound.

00:35:42 ►

And I looked up.

00:35:43 ►

I sort of took my camera and looked up, and there was this dot coming down,

00:35:47 ►

and it sort of resolved into an egg shape.

00:35:50 ►

And as it got closer, it sort of started to shine in the sunlight,

00:35:54 ►

the virtual sunlight, and a little bejeweled.

00:35:58 ►

And I realized, oh, it’s a Fabergé egg mobile.

00:36:03 ►

And it just came to rest.

00:36:05 ►

It was a whir, whir, whir, whir, whir, whir, whir, whir, whir, and it came to rest right beside Terrence.

00:36:10 ►

He sort of looked at it, and he unfolded himself in the way he would,

00:36:14 ►

and he got himself up, you know, kind of like mounting a horse, a Colorado kid, you know.

00:36:21 ►

Got in the back.

00:36:22 ►

It was a nice plush seat, And in the front, there was this

00:36:25 ►

sort of sweeping windscreen with this unseen little thing in there. And gear was shifted

00:36:31 ►

and the thing shook and it went up and whir, whir, whir, whir, and up through into the

00:36:37 ►

azure veil. It just sort of disappeared. And I thought, okay. And then, you know, Connie gave one last big bow or big stroke and I popped out of it. And then later on, these are the last words that I spoke to Terrence personally. I said, I came up to him as we were all, the conference was leaving and I said, can I, you know, have a, can I have your ear so I can tell you what I saw? And he’s game for that, so sure.

00:37:05 ►

And I explained, and he sort of sat upright and had this grin on his face

00:37:10 ►

and looked back at me and said, ah, the getaway car.

00:37:30 ►

So that was, and that actually informed some of my later work with Terrence,

00:37:34 ►

which you’ll see in some of these pieces we’ve produced.

00:37:39 ►

You know, I barely knew Terrence.

00:37:43 ►

You know, I met him at conferences and would ask a question or something,

00:37:50 ►

and, you know, he wouldn’t have remembered who i was or anything and but my my last interaction with terence now that i think about it we were just talking about i hadn’t realized it was really the last uh words he said to me is i was working

00:37:55 ►

on the spirit of the internet uh at the time which you all have a copy of now and uh i was really

00:38:01 ►

excited i was right in the middle of doing it and and, you know, I was still six months from finishing it.

00:38:06 ►

But I got him aside, and I told him I wanted to talk to him about the premise of the book,

00:38:10 ►

about the Entierle Hardé Chardin’s concept of the noosphere and the Internet.

00:38:14 ►

And I explained it all to him in really more detail than he wanted to hear.

00:38:19 ►

And so I said, well, what do you think about my premise?

00:38:22 ►

And he says, well, it seems pretty obvious to me.

00:38:24 ►

And that was the last thing I heard from Darren. I said, well, what do you think about my premise? And he says, well, seems pretty obvious to me.

00:38:28 ►

And that was the last thing I heard from Darren.

00:38:30 ►

Seems pretty obvious to me.

00:38:35 ►

So what we’re going to do now is we’re going to adjust the lighting in the room.

00:38:41 ►

And rather than me introduce Bruce, because that, as you’ll see in just a moment, would be a very complicated thing to do.

00:38:45 ►

Bruce has had more lives than the nine live cats,

00:38:49 ►

and they’ve all been exciting and very artistic in many ways.

00:38:55 ►

So what I’d like to do is if we can lower the lights.

00:39:00 ►

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon,

00:39:03 ►

where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.

00:39:08 ►

And if you would like to lower your own lights right now and watch the video that Bruce was about to introduce, you can click over to YouTube.

00:39:17 ►

Assuming, of course, that you aren’t driving to work or something like that right now.

00:39:25 ►

something like that right now. But if you’re at a computer, you can go to the notes from the Psychedelic Salon blog, which you can get to via www.psychedelicsalon.us. And in the program

00:39:33 ►

notes for this podcast today, you’ll find not just Bruce’s personal video embedded, but also the two

00:39:39 ►

videos about Terrence McKenna that Bruce created as well. And those three pieces took up a good portion of

00:39:45 ►

Bruce’s part of the morning session of our workshop. The pieces actually are titled,

00:39:52 ►

Who is Bruce? Terrence McKenna Life Stream, and Terrence on the Natch. And I’ll leave it up to

00:40:00 ►

you to watch those three videos before my next podcast, which we’ll pick up right after Ken Adams

00:40:05 ►

premiered his new video about Terrence McKenna. And in my next podcast, I’ll be telling you a lot

00:40:12 ►

more about Ken’s wonderful film, as well as a way that maybe you can use it to help find some of the

00:40:18 ►

others in your own hometown. So now I want to again pass along a few thoughts about the Occupy movement

00:40:26 ►

and first of all I should mention how heartened I am about the number of positive messages that

00:40:32 ►

I’ve received about my including Occupy News in these podcasts apparently all of this talk over

00:40:38 ►

the years about expanding our consciousness has helped us to become better aware of all the

00:40:44 ►

changes that are taking place in our world and of how truly interconnected we all are.

00:41:05 ►

of possible police agent provocateurs infiltrating the black bloc actions and even attacking occupied journalists who are feeding live video streams

00:41:10 ►

to those of us who can’t be there in person.

00:41:14 ►

And you’ve no doubt also been following the events from the London Stock Exchange

00:41:18 ►

to Des Moines, Iowa, to small towns in Nevada and elsewhere,

00:41:24 ►

and particularly back in Egypt.

00:41:26 ►

There’s hardly a corner of the globe where there isn’t this new vibe that’s being felt and acted on.

00:41:33 ►

And here in the States, one of the main focal points of the current phase of the Occupy movement

00:41:38 ►

is the focus on mortgage fraud that the banks perpetrated on unsuspecting homeowners and which has resulted

00:41:46 ►

in an epidemic of house foreclosures and other problems like that in this country. In fact,

00:41:52 ►

I read recently that there are more foreclosed and vacant houses in the state of Florida

00:41:57 ►

than there are homeless people in that state. So, hey, what’s wrong with that picture, huh?

00:42:03 ►

And just to give you an idea, a small idea of some of the more positive aspects of the Occupy movement right now,

00:42:10 ►

I’m going to play just a few minutes of audio from a video clip that I recorded just today

00:42:15 ►

from the live video stream of a young woman journalist in Los Angeles

00:42:19 ►

who goes by the handle OccupyFreedomLA on the ustream.tv network.

00:42:26 ►

And if you haven’t watched her stream yet, I highly recommend it.

00:42:30 ►

Along with Tim Pool and a few of my other favorite journalists,

00:42:34 ►

I’ve embedded Freedom Stream on a permanent page on my OccupySalon.us blog, OccupySalon.us.

00:42:42 ►

That’s where I also post just this Occupy segment of my podcast

00:42:46 ►

from the Psychedelic Salon

00:42:48 ►

in case that you just want to replay just the Occupy part.

00:42:52 ►

Anyway, that was kind of a long introduction to this soundbite

00:42:56 ►

which is of a man talking at a rally in L.A.

00:42:59 ►

just going on right as we speak actually

00:43:02 ►

and it was supported by the Occupy movement.

00:43:05 ►

And here’s what he had to say about what is being called the mortgage crisis and or the foreclosure crisis.

00:43:14 ►

Politically, that will probably lead to major national legal decisions and or legislation

00:43:23 ►

to put a stop to a lot of their fraudulent policies.

00:43:28 ►

And when I say fraudulent, everyone knows about the fact that the banks are not being

00:43:34 ►

regulated, sold off a lot of the mortgages that they held to other investors.

00:43:41 ►

And so they illegally have foreclosed on many of these 12 million homes

00:43:45 ►

that they’ve already snatched, number one.

00:43:48 ►

But number two, they have become very illegal and fraudulent in their efforts to dispossess

00:43:55 ►

homeowners who they have often suckered into believing that they were helping to rewrite

00:44:02 ►

their mortgages. And they have found systematic ways, systematic ways to trip up homeowners in these programs

00:44:11 ►

and snatch their properties because all this time they have been under very little scrutiny

00:44:16 ►

or control by anyone.

00:44:18 ►

And they’ve gotten used to it.

00:44:20 ►

And we’re saying that that has to stop.

00:44:23 ►

You know, this whole process of dispossession of homeowners is nationwide and hits every community.

00:44:30 ►

But in particular, it hits communities of color.

00:44:36 ►

It hits communities where unemployment is already extremely high.

00:44:41 ►

It hits these communities with a far greater effect. Particularly in communities of color, the homes often were only acquired after several generations of effort

00:44:51 ►

to put together enough money to be able to afford to buy a home.

00:44:55 ►

And often against the strictures of redlining, which meant that often the family had to raise enough money

00:45:02 ►

to actually buy the house outright or close to do that,

00:45:05 ►

or have massive down payments in order to get into the housing market.

00:45:11 ►

The banks pretended, starting around the year 2002,

00:45:15 ►

that they were going to give people they had previously redlined a chance to own a home like anyone else. But the truth is that they were using that mechanism of

00:45:27 ►

opening up a broader range of people to purchase houses actually to put pressure on the prices

00:45:33 ►

of houses and it was only one of a series of mechanisms that were used to artificially

00:45:39 ►

inflate the cost of housing across the board. And that is why, once that bubble burst and the economy

00:45:46 ►

spiraled down, the entire economy, causing a loss of at least 10 million jobs, the collapse of

00:45:53 ►

thousands of workplaces and businesses across the country and even globally, once they found that that bubble burst,

00:46:05 ►

the homeowners, those who they weren’t able to outright dispossess,

00:46:10 ►

were then stuck with mortgages that were hyperinflated.

00:46:14 ►

And that is what they’re still paying on all these years later,

00:46:18 ►

five or six years later, they’re paying inflated rates,

00:46:23 ►

monthly payments on homes that have dropped sometimes by 50% or more in market value.

00:46:30 ►

This is a massive social crime.

00:46:33 ►

We are saying that corporate crime has reached such levels of outrage in this country

00:46:45 ►

that the citizenry has to organize itself now to demand, number one, that they be fully prosecuted.

00:46:53 ►

Every single one of them responsible for this mess needs to be prosecuted.

00:46:57 ►

Number two, the banks need to immediately stop this foreclosure process throughout the country.

00:47:04 ►

Number three, they

00:47:05 ►

need to help those who are still in their homes to stay in their homes. Number four,

00:47:11 ►

they need to be required, required to make restitution to those who they illegally and

00:47:20 ►

fraudulently did out of their properties and seized the number one thing that many families will ever have in their lifetime,

00:47:29 ►

which is a home.

00:47:30 ►

And all of this is about mega bucks.

00:47:33 ►

Mega bucks.

00:47:34 ►

And it’s time for the buck to stop here, like at Wells Fargo.

00:47:38 ►

It’s time for the buck to stop here at the state building.

00:47:42 ►

And until this situation is dealt with,

00:47:45 ►

we are going to be out here in the streets.

00:47:47 ►

We are saying that when they say leave your property,

00:47:51 ►

do not comply.

00:47:53 ►

We say occupy.

00:47:56 ►

Occupy.

00:47:57 ►

When they say leave, don’t comply.

00:48:00 ►

We say occupy.

00:48:02 ►

We say occupy.

00:48:04 ►

We say occupy. We say occupy. We stay occupied!

00:48:11 ►

And finally, 12 million homes is more than enough and it’s time for the homeowners to get tough and our intent is to organize those

00:48:28 ►

homeowners as a constituency group we’re saying hold on to your home occupy your home fight for

00:48:36 ►

your home you have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness these issues caused a

00:48:41 ►

revolution in this country 200 some odd years ago.

00:48:47 ►

200 some odd years ago.

00:48:56 ►

And life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are being denied to the mass of the citizenry in this country today,

00:48:58 ►

and it’s not going to be tolerated.

00:49:06 ►

So thank you, Carlos the Mailman and and others for pulling this rally together.

00:49:12 ►

Thanks to all the partners in our coalition that are coming together to fight this phenomenon.

00:49:20 ►

And thanks to all the homeowners like Ms. Parker and Bertha Herrera and many others who are beginning to stand up and say that we’re going to organize and we’re going to resist this and we’re going to stand up for our rights.

00:49:25 ►

Thank you.

00:49:26 ►

Thank you.

00:49:29 ►

Now, in just a minute, I’m going to play a conversation that included Harvard University professor Lawrence Lessig and Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Chris Hedges.

00:49:45 ►

Prize winning journalist Chris Hedges. But first I want to read a few words that Chris Hedges wrote recently after a visit to Canada, where basically he found an economic and political situation

00:49:53 ►

strangely similar to that of the U.S. And here is part of what he had to say in an article for

00:49:59 ►

Truthout titled, What Happened to Canada? And I quote, Corporations have no regard for nation-states.

00:50:08 ►

They assert their power to exploit the land and the people everywhere.

00:50:12 ►

They play worker off of worker and nation off of nation.

00:50:17 ►

They control the political elites in Ottawa as they do in London, Paris, and Washington.

00:50:22 ►

This, I suspect, is why the tactics to crush the Occupy movement around the globe

00:50:28 ►

have an eerie similarity.

00:50:31 ►

Infiltrations, surveillance, the denial of public assembly,

00:50:35 ►

physical attempts to eradicate encampments,

00:50:38 ►

the use of propaganda and the press to demonize the movement,

00:50:41 ►

new draconian laws stripping citizens of basic rights, and increasingly

00:50:46 ►

harsh terms of incarceration.

00:50:49 ►

Our solidarity should be with the activists who march on Tahrir Square in Cairo or set

00:50:55 ►

up in Campamentos in Madrid.

00:50:58 ►

These are our true compatriots.

00:51:01 ►

The more we shed ourselves of national identity in this fight, the more we grasp that our true allies may not speak our language or embrace our religious and cultural traditions, the more powerful we will become.

00:51:49 ►

I go on with Hedges’ quote, our most dangerous opponents, in fact, look and speak like us. They hijack familiar and comforting iconography and slogans to paint themselves as

00:51:55 ►

true patriots. They claim to love Jesus, but they cynically serve the function a native bureaucracy

00:52:01 ►

serves for any foreign colonizer. The British and the French

00:52:05 ►

and earlier the Romans were masters of this game. They recruited local quizlings to carry out

00:52:11 ►

policies and repression that were determined in London or Paris or Rome. Popular anger was

00:52:17 ►

vented against these personages and native group vied with native group in battles for scraps of influence.

00:52:29 ►

And when one native ruler was overthrown or, more rarely, voted out of power,

00:52:32 ►

these imperial machines recruited a new face.

00:52:35 ►

The actual centers of power did not change.

00:52:37 ►

The pillage continued.

00:52:41 ►

Global financiers are the new colonizers.

00:52:43 ►

They make the rules. They pull the strings.

00:52:48 ►

They offer the illusion of choice in our carnivals of political theater,

00:52:52 ►

but corporate power remains constant and unimpeded.

00:52:57 ►

Barack Obama serves the same role as Herod did in imperial Rome.

00:53:01 ►

This is why the Occupy Wall Street movement is important.

00:53:08 ►

It targets the center of power, global financial institutions. It deflects attention from the empty posturing in the legislative and executive offices in Washington

00:53:13 ►

or London or Paris. The Occupy movement reminds us that until the corporate superstructure is

00:53:19 ►

dismantled, it does not matter which member of the native elite is elected or appointed to rule.

00:53:24 ►

it does not matter which member of the native elite is elected or appointed to rule.

00:53:30 ►

The Canadian Prime Minister is as much a servant of corporate power as the American President,

00:53:34 ►

and replacing either will not alter corporate domination.

00:53:39 ►

As the corporate mechanisms of control become apparent to wider segments of the population,

00:53:41 ►

discontent will grow further.

00:53:46 ►

So will the force employed by our corporate overlords.

00:53:50 ►

It will be a long road for us, but we are not alone.

00:53:53 ►

There are struggles and brush fires everywhere.

00:54:00 ►

And I’ll link to the entire article that Chris wrote in the program notes for this podcast in the event that you want to read his essay, and I highly recommend that you do.

00:54:04 ►

this podcast in the event that you want to read his essay, and I highly recommend that you do.

00:54:11 ►

Now I want to play this conversation with Lawrence Lessig and Chris Hedges that was hosted by Occupy TVNY, and as you will hear, they each have different approaches for the road ahead.

00:54:19 ►

While Lessig is supporting a constitutional convention, as am I, by the way.

00:54:31 ►

Chris Hedges thinks that peaceful civil disobedience will be required, as do I, by the way.

00:54:34 ►

Now, here’s their conversation.

00:54:50 ►

I am here with Chris Hedges and Lawrence Lessig, who’ve joined us today, the Occupy the Courts team, to talk about issues of corporate personhood and reform in our current system or outside of it in connection with a corporate personhood

00:54:59 ►

event that’s taking place today in Foley Square in New York City. So I thought I’d just like to start by asking you both, you know, what brings you to the

00:55:10 ►

event today, the Corporate Personhood event?

00:55:15 ►

What in your work has brought you to the place that you’re interested in this event and think

00:55:18 ►

it’s an important one to be engaging in right now through Occupy or otherwise?

00:55:23 ►

I guess I’ll start with Professor Lessig.

00:55:26 ►

Mr. Hedges.

00:55:27 ►

Well, I think that the anniversary,

00:55:31 ►

the day of infamy that we’re celebrating tomorrow,

00:55:34 ►

the anniversary of the Supreme Court’s decision

00:55:37 ►

in Citizens United,

00:55:38 ►

is an extraordinarily important moment

00:55:40 ►

to rally people to recognizing

00:55:43 ►

the wide range of reform that’s necessary. I’m not somebody

00:55:48 ►

who believes that reversing Citizens United gets us to utopia in American democracy. I think

00:55:54 ►

American democracy was broken before Citizens United shot it once again. The body was already

00:56:00 ►

dead and cold. But it is a moment because many people recognize the absurdity in the

00:56:07 ►

decision and the consequences of the decision, and that’s the energy we need to rally if

00:56:13 ►

we’re going to ever reform it and reverse it and take the other steps that are necessary.

00:56:18 ►

We’ve undergone a corporate coup d’etat in slow motion and it’s over. We’ve lost and they’ve won.

00:56:26 ►

And the fundamental message of the Occupy movement,

00:56:29 ►

which is often criticized for not having demands or having a message,

00:56:33 ►

is that they want that coup reversed.

00:56:35 ►

And once that coup is reversed, then everything falls into place.

00:56:39 ►

Healthcare, affordable housing, sustainable energy, local banking

00:56:47 ►

but if you don’t shatter that corporate monolith

00:56:51 ►

then all of the reforms that we seek

00:56:55 ►

none of them will come into place

00:56:56 ►

and so by focusing on that issue

00:56:59 ►

on the corporate state

00:57:01 ►

on what the political philosopher Sheldon Wolin calls

00:57:05 ►

our system of inverted totalitarianism,

00:57:08 ►

by which he means that it’s not classical totalitarianism.

00:57:12 ►

It doesn’t find its expression through a demagogue or a charismatic leader,

00:57:16 ►

but through the anonymity of the corporate state.

00:57:19 ►

That in inverted totalitarianism, you have corporate forces

00:57:23 ►

that purport to pay fealty

00:57:25 ►

to the Constitution, electoral politics,

00:57:29 ►

the iconography and language of American patriotism,

00:57:32 ►

and yet internally have seized all

00:57:35 ►

the levers of power so as to render the citizenry

00:57:38 ►

impotent. And this is the issue.

00:57:41 ►

Citizens United is a manifestation,

00:57:43 ►

as Professor Lessing has pointed out,

00:57:46 ►

a disease that

00:57:49 ►

has destroyed the body

00:57:52 ►

politic for some time.

00:57:54 ►

But it’s a pretty flagrant

00:57:55 ►

manifestation of that.

00:57:57 ►

So do you agree that there’s been a coup

00:58:00 ►

and that it’s over?

00:58:03 ►

Well,

00:58:04 ►

I do agree that politics in America

00:58:07 ►

has been captured by the tiniest slice of America.

00:58:11 ►

0.26% of Americans give more than $200 in a political campaign.

00:58:16 ►

0.05% give the maximum amount in a congressional campaign.

00:58:21 ►

0.01%, one out of 1,000,

00:58:23 ►

give more than $10,000 in an election

00:58:26 ►

cycle. Those are the people with the influence inside of our political system. And though I agree

00:58:34 ►

it’s important to address the question of corporate personhood and to get that resolved in the right

00:58:39 ►

way, if that’s all we did, those people would still control American politics in a way that

00:58:46 ►

would make American politics still unresponsive to all the issues that I think people on the left,

00:58:52 ►

and even people on the right, want American government to be able to address. So I think

00:58:57 ►

that it’s absolutely essential that we get people to recognize the way this system is captured by not the 1%, by the fraction of the 1%.

00:59:08 ►

And until we reverse that, the system has no claim to being called a representative democracy.

00:59:15 ►

So how does it get reversed?

00:59:17 ►

Well, let me just add on that it’s not just the political system that has been seized by the corporate state.

00:59:28 ►

It’s the systems of communication, it’s education, it’s culture, with an assault against those

00:59:39 ►

traditional liberal institutions that once made incremental and piecemeal reform possible.

00:59:45 ►

Labor unions, the public education, and in particular, great universities like City University,

00:59:54 ►

which have been decimated.

00:59:57 ►

You go to places like Harvard or Princeton, where I’ve taught, and they are run as corporations.

01:00:03 ►

where I’ve taught and they are run as corporations.

01:00:09 ►

The whole process of standardized testing, the winnowing out,

01:00:15 ►

the celebration of a very narrow analytic kind of intelligence embodied in figures like Lawrence Summers,

01:00:19 ►

is exactly what the corporate state wants.

01:00:23 ►

So that by the time you reach these elite institutions,

01:00:26 ►

you’re perfectly molded and, of course, incredibly deferential to authority.

01:00:32 ►

Indeed, most students at these institutions, by the time they get there,

01:00:38 ►

allow authority to define their success.

01:00:42 ►

And they are funneled into the system to work as systems managers.

01:00:48 ►

That’s all they know how to do, is serve that system, the whole withering away of the humanities.

01:00:55 ►

And I just spoke at Harvard where I went to graduate school, and there is certainly a

01:00:59 ►

very heavy push to turn Harvard into the Stanford of the East Coast, i.e. a giant technical university

01:01:07 ►

with a vast medical research center and everything else, and let the humanities atrophy.

01:01:16 ►

And this is writ large across the country.

01:01:19 ►

Of course, for-profit universities don’t even provide humanities.

01:01:22 ►

And there is a huge difference between teaching people how to think,

01:01:27 ►

which classics do, and you’re a classics major,

01:01:31 ►

and teaching people what to think.

01:01:34 ►

And we teach less and less people how to think.

01:01:37 ►

So we can’t look at it as just a corruption of the political system.

01:01:42 ►

These corporate forces, I mean, half of the trustee board

01:01:46 ►

of any university, including Harvard, with Robert Rubin,

01:01:50 ►

who sits on the board of overseers, should be in jail.

01:01:53 ►

And these institutions celebrate that kind of money.

01:01:57 ►

The presidents of these institutions are judged solely

01:02:00 ►

on their capacity to raise money.

01:02:01 ►

Of course, they’re paid like overcompensated CEOs.

01:02:05 ►

So we’re talking about a degeneration,

01:02:10 ►

not just within the political system,

01:02:12 ►

but throughout the entire culture.

01:02:14 ►

The real debate is being carried out by groups like Occupy.

01:02:18 ►

But the struggling with the issues

01:02:23 ►

that actually mean something in the daily lives of Americans

01:02:26 ►

are almost virtually absent from the commercial airwaves.

01:02:30 ►

So let me ask you, Professor Lessig,

01:02:33 ►

Chris Hedges just said that it’s not just about the corrupting influence of money in politics,

01:02:38 ►

but there’s a pervasive corrupting influence, and it goes really deep.

01:02:41 ►

You’ve proposed certain reforms, or I’m not sure if that’s the right word for them,

01:02:46 ►

to excise money from politics.

01:02:48 ►

Do you see that as the main issue?

01:02:52 ►

Do you recognize what Pudges is saying about this broader issue?

01:02:55 ►

Do you think your solution would address that broader issue?

01:02:57 ►

I think that there’s a sequence of reform.

01:03:01 ►

And I completely agree about the way in which many institutions have been corrupted by a similar dynamic.

01:03:09 ►

I run an ethics center at Harvard that is focused on institutional corruption,

01:03:13 ►

which is this problem we see in government, but in every private institution you can imagine, including the academy.

01:03:20 ►

So I completely agree with that.

01:03:22 ►

But democratic politics was about the space where we could self-consciously decide how to make and remake a society. And if we can’t reclaim that, we done across the spheres of society. But I think we actually have a moment and an opportunity where we could rally enough forces, this kind of diverse

01:03:50 ►

outsider forces, and they’re not even left-right, it’s outsider-insider, that’s the fundamental

01:03:56 ►

division, enough. We could rally them in the way Hobbes thought of the sovereign as the

01:04:01 ►

sleeping giant. The sleeping giant can be awoken and when the

01:04:05 ►

giant awakes, can reclaim enough power to fix a part of it and then begin the long work

01:04:13 ►

that will be required to fix all of it. So I think it’s a sequence question, not a disagreement

01:04:19 ►

about what the ultimate problem is.

01:04:21 ►

On Wednesday, we had the internet blackout and the sort of large movement

01:04:26 ►

against SOPA and PIPA, the internet piracy bills, where millions and millions of people

01:04:34 ►

sent petitions and many people called Congress. Is that the sort of sleeping giant awakening that

01:04:38 ►

you’re talking about? You know, spring comes in waves, and we’ve seen a whole series of these

01:04:42 ►

waves. And this is the latest. It’s not, I mean, it was very impressive.

01:04:46 ►

It’s not as impressive as what Occupy was.

01:04:49 ►

But we can talk about all of them.

01:04:51 ►

And you can see the way each time they happen,

01:04:53 ►

people begin to have a recognition that, you know,

01:04:56 ►

it’s like the giant feeling, the twitching of the fingers.

01:04:59 ►

And, oh my gosh, I have a hand over here, and then I have legs.

01:05:01 ►

And I slowly begin to see how I can coordinate and begin to do things. So each of them is important. None of them has yet put it all

01:05:10 ►

together. But I think we’re in that direction because the underlying cause of any of these

01:05:15 ►

things is not going away.

01:05:17 ►

And what is that underlying cause? I don’t want to ask you the same question.

01:05:20 ►

In my view, the underlying cause here is a deep corruption in many institutions, but let’s just talk about the corruption inside of the government system, where because of the way in which we have embedded power, there’s no connection to the original conception of a republic dependent upon the people alone.

01:05:41 ►

They’re increasingly dependent upon funders, which, of course, are not the

01:05:45 ►

people.

01:05:45 ►

So there’s this deep corruption inside the system that, until we address, cannot make

01:05:50 ►

democracy function.

01:05:51 ►

Until democracy functions, people are going to say, fuck democracy.

01:05:54 ►

Why should I waste my time with democracy?

01:05:56 ►

So people criticize the Occupy Movement for not engaging.

01:06:00 ►

The Occupy Movement is being deeply rational for not engaging in normal politics, because

01:06:04 ►

normal politics gets us Barack Obama, right?

01:06:06 ►

Look at, I mean, we thought in 2008 normal politics machine would work,

01:06:11 ►

we’d get the reformer, we’d be on our way back to happiness.

01:06:14 ►

But obviously we’ve seen it’s gotten us nowhere.

01:06:18 ►

So what, in your view, is the underlying cause?

01:06:20 ►

The destruction of radical and populist movements, which began in World War I

01:06:24 ►

and culminated in the 1950s with communist witch hunts.

01:06:28 ►

So the Wobblies, the old CIO, the Communist Party, the anarcho-syndicalist unions, all of these are wiped out.

01:06:37 ►

And so you have a liberal class.

01:06:40 ►

The liberal class in any society has never been designed to be the left. It’s designed to be

01:06:47 ►

the political center. The liberal class, it works as a kind of safety valve, so that when there are

01:06:53 ►

widespread grievances and injustices, as we saw during the Great Depression, you have traditional

01:06:58 ►

liberals within the establishment, like Henry Wallace, Roosevelt’s vice president, or Roosevelt

01:07:02 ►

himself, who give us the New Deal.

01:07:05 ►

And when Conrad Black writes his biography of Roosevelt,

01:07:08 ►

he said that Roosevelt’s greatest accomplishment was that he saved capitalism, and that’s right.

01:07:13 ►

Well, the destruction of those radical movements and then the disemboweling of liberal institutions.

01:07:18 ►

In the 1950s, you had thousands of university professors, directors, artists, writers, social workers.

01:07:26 ►

The social workers in this country, the union used to agitate on behalf of their clients.

01:07:31 ►

All of it’s wiped out.

01:07:32 ►

Great figures like I.F. Stone can’t get a job anywhere.

01:07:36 ►

He even hit the Nation magazine and starts I.F. Stone Weekly in his basement.

01:07:41 ►

And so essentially we were left defenseless.

01:07:44 ►

Movements, all of the correctives to American democracy came through movements

01:07:47 ►

that never achieved formal political power. The Liberty Party that fought

01:07:52 ►

slavery, the suffragists for women’s rights, the labor movement,

01:07:56 ►

the civil rights movement. And the destruction of

01:08:00 ►

those movements, coupled with a gutless liberal class,

01:08:04 ►

a kind of faux liberalism embodied

01:08:05 ►

in figures like Bill Clinton. I mean, what corporate giveaway did the Clinton administration

01:08:11 ►

not carry out, whether it’s deregulating the FCC or NAFTA or, you know, destroying,

01:08:18 ►

ripping down Glass-Steagall, the firewall between commercial and investment banks,

01:08:22 ►

again, the handiwork of Lawrence Summers,

01:08:31 ►

who Obama has just proposed to go to the World Bank. You know, they speak in that traditional language of liberalism, and yet betray every one of the sort of fundamental or core values

01:08:38 ►

that a liberal would embrace. And I think that that is emblematic of how deeply decayed the system is. human needs must be sacrificed because of the marketplace defies, you know, 3,000 years of

01:09:08 ►

economic history and human nature. It’s a utopian ideology, and it’s been exposed as a lie.

01:09:15 ►

And I think that the death of that utopian ideology, which is becoming increasingly

01:09:22 ►

apparent not only to the American worker but to the global workforce,

01:09:27 ►

which is, of course, on this downward spiral where American workers are told that they have to be competitive on a global level

01:09:34 ►

with women who work in sweatshops in Bangladesh for 22 cents an hour or prison labor in China.

01:09:41 ►

It’s the death of this utopian ideology coupled with the utter corruption of an

01:09:47 ►

extremely, as Professor Lessing pointed out, this incredibly tiny, narrow, oligarchic elite,

01:09:54 ►

which in my mind means the system is not reformable, but will have to be pushed aside.

01:10:00 ►

And I think that in that sense, the Occupy Movement is, in sort of classical terms,

01:10:05 ►

correctly defined as a revolutionary movement.

01:10:09 ►

So do you, I mean, it seems a little bit like those two answers were talking past each other.

01:10:14 ►

You’re talking about a mechanism whereby people’s voices cannot be heard in the political system

01:10:20 ►

because it’s been purchased. And you’re talking, it seems like, about the

01:10:25 ►

consequences of that, the destruction of correctives to American democracy, perhaps,

01:10:31 ►

by corporations who recognize them as threats. No, I’m saying that I’m agreeing with Professor

01:10:36 ►

Lesson on the political aspect, but I’m saying that the other avenues of public expression,

01:10:41 ►

for instance, the media, have been shut down.

01:10:51 ►

Opportunities of education are increasingly confined to the elite.

01:10:58 ►

But can I, just to interrupt you again, do you, I mean, do you think, you said you don’t think reform is possible, and why? I don’t think appealing to the systems of power will make the kinds of reforms that we want to see possible. And do you see an attempt to extract money from politics as an appeal to the systems of power?

01:11:10 ►

Sure, because it’s got to pass through Congress.

01:11:12 ►

And these guys are the congressional legislative branches,

01:11:18 ►

both at the state and federal level, are wholly owned subsidiaries of the corporate state.

01:11:23 ►

And maybe you could take a step back and explain a little bit of your project

01:11:26 ►

and say how you address that critique,

01:11:28 ►

which seems to be, you know, a very powerful one.

01:11:31 ►

How do you expect the captured powers to go along with you

01:11:35 ►

as you try and remove the influence of corporate money from politics?

01:11:39 ►

So I’m not convinced that it’s wrong

01:11:43 ►

to say that the existing Washington structure is unreformable.

01:11:50 ►

And in my book, I talk about the only outsider reform movement which the Constitution left open to us, which is a convention process.

01:12:02 ►

Sorry, could you just say the name of your book? Yeah, so my book is Republic Lost.

01:12:07 ►

And the framers in Article 5 say amendments can happen through Congress

01:12:12 ►

and then somebody said, well, what if Congress was the problem? And they said, okay, fine.

01:12:16 ►

States can say, let’s have a convention. The convention proposes amendments and the amendments go

01:12:19 ►

through the states. And then the question is, to what extent really

01:12:23 ►

have the same powers that have

01:12:25 ►

taken over Washington taken over the states? And Chris might be right. I don’t know. My view is,

01:12:34 ►

even if I think there’s no chance, you’ve got to do everything you possibly can to win. So I don’t

01:12:43 ►

really care

01:12:45 ►

whether he’s right or not. It’s not going to

01:12:48 ►

change what I think we need to do, which is

01:12:50 ►

this is the only path we have

01:12:51 ►

for trying to insert radical change

01:12:54 ►

into the system that doesn’t depend

01:12:56 ►

upon congressmen voting on it.

01:12:58 ►

No congressman has to vote on this.

01:13:00 ►

And so that’s what I think

01:13:02 ►

we ultimately are going to do. The only path being

01:13:04 ►

that you would convene a convention?

01:13:07 ►

Article V convention that would symbolize

01:13:11 ►

and create enough political momentum around it

01:13:13 ►

that it would be very hard for people to stand down from it.

01:13:17 ►

Now, I don’t think a convention…

01:13:19 ►

One of the fundamental positions I have about this reform movement

01:13:24 ►

is that there’s two things that have to happen at the same time.

01:13:28 ►

One thing is, as somebody from the left, I celebrate

01:13:33 ►

the leftist reform movements that are reviving themselves

01:13:36 ►

and the gut expression and the Occupy movement. I think all of those are extremely important.

01:13:40 ►

We haven’t had those enough, maybe 1950 is the mark, I don’t know when it is,

01:13:44 ►

but it’s

01:13:45 ►

sometime in a long time. And they have to become powerful and really vibrant again. But at the same

01:13:50 ►

time, I think we have to recognize, at least in the conventional way that I’m talking about,

01:13:56 ►

and I don’t mean convention there, I mean the conventional way that I’m talking about,

01:13:59 ►

one faction never achieves fundamental reform. We have to find a way to talk about fundamental reform that isn’t just about one

01:14:06 ►

faction. And so

01:14:07 ►

this is kind of bizarre.

01:14:09 ►

It’s kind of odd to see whether it’s even possible,

01:14:12 ►

but can we put two things together at the same time?

01:14:14 ►

One is a revival of

01:14:16 ►

this leftist movement

01:14:17 ►

and a recognition that

01:14:20 ►

the leftist movement might need to

01:14:22 ►

find not common ground,

01:14:24 ►

but a common enemy. So it might

01:14:27 ►

need to be alliance in the sense that you could imagine somebody like a Stalin sitting with

01:14:32 ►

a Roosevelt against a common alliance, against a common enemy. And that’s what I wonder here.

01:14:38 ►

I wonder whether there isn’t a grassroots movement that could express its anger about this corruption clearly and forcefully

01:14:47 ►

enough that it didn’t have to get in, that this part of it didn’t have to get into, you know,

01:14:51 ►

whether once we fix the system we’re going to have aggressive taxes or no taxes. And in my view,

01:14:57 ►

that’s the only hope to affecting a constitutional change. Now, maybe we’ll just, you know, some

01:15:03 ►

people just want to get rid of it. Let’s have a real revolution, have a new government. That’s the end of this

01:15:07 ►

constitution. I’m not there. You know, that’s not my game, but I understand it.

01:15:13 ►

Do you think that, I mean, Professor Lessig said this is the only path for inserting change in our

01:15:17 ►

system. I put it that way. Do you think that’s right?

01:15:22 ►

No, I think that the only path left is civil disobedience. I’ll just expand on that

01:15:29 ►

then because you brought it up and I’ve seen you write that. Can you define what is the scope of

01:15:35 ►

civil disobedience as you understand it? Well, mass acts that defy the law of the land in a non-violent way. I don’t think that…

01:15:46 ►

I mean, I’d be curious to hear

01:15:48 ►

sort of the nuts and bolts of Professor Lessing’s idea

01:15:52 ►

of how it would work.

01:15:55 ►

I think that the state has played its hand,

01:16:00 ►

and when it shut down the 18 occupying campments,

01:16:04 ►

that if it had any capacity to hear the voices of the people,

01:16:13 ►

Congress only has a 9% approval rating,

01:16:15 ►

so most Americans absolutely detest everything that they’re doing.

01:16:20 ►

It doesn’t make any difference.

01:16:23 ►

Nobody supported the F Pfizer Reform Act.

01:16:26 ►

Eighty percent of Democrats supported a public option,

01:16:29 ►

and yet Obama scuttled it and turned Obamacare over to lobbyists who wrote it,

01:16:33 ►

and it ended up being $400 billion in subsidies to the pharmaceutical insurance industry.

01:16:40 ►

I mean, you know, there’s sort of an endless train of examples

01:16:43 ►

that the legislative process just does not respond, even when the vast majority of the Americans want something.

01:16:49 ►

It doesn’t matter.

01:16:50 ►

It’s not relevant.

01:16:52 ►

So I think we also have to bring in the environmental crisis.

01:16:56 ►

We just have very, very little time left, and the fossil fuel industry is killing us, quite literally.

01:17:01 ►

It’s, of course, killing the planet.

01:17:03 ►

How do you break the back of ExxonMobil?

01:17:08 ►

We’re not going to do it through this process

01:17:13 ►

because ExxonMobil owns this process.

01:17:16 ►

Yeah, I think I’m not convinced.

01:17:18 ►

I think that we should avoid either or.

01:17:21 ►

I think these two things have to happen at the same time.

01:17:24 ►

should avoid either or. I think these two things have to happen at the same time.

01:17:28 ►

I’ll confess to a certain cowardice about it’s brought about

01:17:32 ►

by a recognition of the absolute

01:17:35 ►

extraordinary power that is

01:17:40 ►

deployed against civil disobedience

01:17:44 ►

in our country.

01:17:45 ►

When Israel had 300,000 people marching,

01:17:49 ►

the police officers around those marchers had no guns.

01:17:54 ►

They just were police officers there to keep the peace.

01:17:58 ►

And you look at the Oakland events,

01:18:01 ►

and it’s like a military invasion from a Star Wars episode.

01:18:05 ►

It’s like extraordinary. And the unrepentant display of force embraced by everybody, you know, is like,

01:18:13 ►

well, this is what… And in fact, the polling then, seeing, you know, the American public back

01:18:18 ►

away from support because of the conflict of violence, makes me fearful that running down

01:18:23 ►

the path that would force that kind of confrontation would lead to, first of all, an extraordinary amount of blood,

01:18:29 ►

and number two, it’s not clear what the thing on the other side is.

01:18:31 ►

So I’m happy to run down the path of more and more pressure, as much as we can get.

01:18:38 ►

But we live in a, you know, not just…

01:18:41 ►

How do you exert it?

01:18:42 ►

If you don’t use the kinds of obstructionist tactics that the Occupy movement, I think, has used successfully,

01:18:49 ►

and of course they want us to be afraid.

01:18:51 ►

I mean, that’s the whole point.

01:18:53 ►

And it’s not fun.

01:18:55 ►

I mean, I just spent all morning in court after being arrested in Goldman Sachs

01:18:58 ►

and going to jails more time than I care to donate to the U.S. government, frankly, to quote Wendell Berry.

01:19:04 ►

But I don’t really see that we have any option left, and certainly Bill McKibben agrees with that.

01:19:09 ►

Berry, who occupied the governor’s office in Kentucky over mountaintop removal, agrees with that.

01:19:15 ►

Cornel West agrees with that.

01:19:18 ►

I want to know how we’re going to bring that pressure if we are not willing to put our bodies on the line.

01:19:25 ►

Yeah, but again, I’m not saying don’t put your bodies on the line.

01:19:27 ►

I am saying let’s not put bodies on the line that we can see predictably is going to produce tanks on the other side.

01:19:34 ►

Because countries can be brought to being the Chinese very quickly, and our country is very close to being the Chinese in this sense, very quickly.

01:19:41 ►

So I’m happy to – I want these movements to create that kind of pressure.

01:19:46 ►

But I think we also have to open up a release valve on the other side, which is a way to

01:19:52 ►

imagine creating a situation where people don’t actually need to be in the streets in

01:19:57 ►

the same way.

01:19:58 ►

But what would that look like? I don’t understand how it would work.

01:20:01 ►

Well, so if there were at the same time that there’s these Occupy movements,

01:20:06 ►

the Occupy movement’s pushing for

01:20:08 ►

the thing which Washington fears the most,

01:20:11 ►

a convention.

01:20:13 ►

So going to legislatures.

01:20:14 ►

And there are a lot of relatively sane,

01:20:16 ►

you know, not at the center of corporate power legislatures.

01:20:19 ►

For example, New Hampshire has 400 legislators, right?

01:20:23 ►

These are not people who spend much time with lobbyists

01:20:26 ►

because nobody can afford to.

01:20:28 ►

So you begin this process of pushing towards

01:20:32 ►

the convention-like reform.

01:20:35 ►

And what I imagine happens is what happened

01:20:37 ►

100 years ago, literally exactly 100 years ago,

01:20:41 ►

when the last time we came close to a convention,

01:20:43 ►

calling for the election of senators, because the Senate time we came close to a convention, calling for the election

01:20:45 ►

of senators, because the Senate at the time was conceived to be the source of all corruption

01:20:49 ►

inside the government, we came within one vote, and Congress very quickly sent an amendment

01:20:54 ►

out to get senators as elected, because they didn’t want to see the convention.

01:20:59 ►

So the convention is a peaceful form of terrorism here that would really shake up.

01:21:06 ►

And I think that that should be on the table

01:21:09 ►

as much as reviving in the spring Occupy movements.

01:21:14 ►

Well, everything should be on the table.

01:21:16 ►

On the other hand, I think I have a darker view of the systems of power.

01:21:21 ►

I think they’re so calcified and so corrupt.

01:21:26 ►

And I think that there’s pretty good evidence that a lot of these corporations are just harvesting the country. They know it’s over.

01:21:30 ►

They’re grabbing as much as fast as they can, including looting the U.S. Treasury,

01:21:35 ►

on the way out the door. I think there’s a really deep cynicism, of course,

01:21:40 ►

nurtured in places like Harvard Business School. I think they get it. I mean, they probably

01:21:46 ►

wouldn’t disagree with our analysis at all. And yet we have no mechanisms now to stop them.

01:21:54 ►

There is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs. Obama has proved utterly useless

01:21:59 ►

in terms of curbing these class of speculators who are using taxpayer dollars to reinflate

01:22:06 ►

the bubble all over again and make themselves as much money as they can before it crashes.

01:22:11 ►

I mean, it’s really quite staggering.

01:22:13 ►

No, the failure of reform is the biggest signal that this system is totally corrupt.

01:22:19 ►

I mean, it’s one thing to imagine the buying of deregulation before 2008.

01:22:28 ►

But what should terrify everybody, even conservatives,

01:22:30 ►

is the fact that after this crisis,

01:22:32 ►

for the first time in American history,

01:22:36 ►

the government didn’t have the power to respond to real reform.

01:22:40 ►

But we haven’t actually liquidated a difference in our views about the probability of succeeding on the second path or on the

01:22:46 ►

first path? Because again, my view is even if I think this other path is zero probability

01:22:52 ►

of succeeding, I still think it’s a path that we have to push.

01:22:55 ►

Right. Well, you know, in the end, it’s a kind of moral imperative. And if you, I covered

01:23:01 ►

all the revolutions in Eastern Europe, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania.

01:23:06 ►

I spent every night with Václav Havel in the Magic Lantern.

01:23:11 ►

And I think that that’s how we have to think of it, that this is morally where we have to be.

01:23:20 ►

And because, I mean, literally these corporations, which have commodified everything, human labor, the natural world, will exploit them until collapse or exhaustion.

01:23:32 ►

Yeah. But the difference is that when those political cultures collapsed, the people at the top just literally didn’t have the resources to fight.

01:23:44 ►

And it wasn’t bloody.

01:23:46 ►

It was kind of amazing how little blood

01:23:47 ►

there was in that extraordinary change.

01:23:50 ►

But if the same thing happened here,

01:23:52 ►

there’s a lot of money at the top.

01:23:53 ►

But I think that the whole tactic of the Occupy

01:23:56 ►

movement is to

01:23:58 ►

not attack the pillars

01:24:00 ►

of the establishment, but divide them.

01:24:03 ►

To constantly

01:24:04 ►

remind the blue uniform police

01:24:06 ►

that they are not the 1%.

01:24:08 ►

And that when you create these divisions within the pillars,

01:24:12 ►

I mean, the fact that Occupy essentially realizes

01:24:15 ►

that the corporate media is not going to,

01:24:18 ►

I mean, this kind of discussion is never going to make it,

01:24:20 ►

even on MSNBC,

01:24:22 ►

which just serves the Democratic Party

01:24:24 ►

the way Fox serves the lunatic just serves the Democratic Party the way Fox

01:24:25 ►

serves the lunatic fringe of the Republican Party.

01:24:28 ►

Not as well.

01:24:29 ►

Not as well.

01:24:30 ►

And so they just create their own media.

01:24:32 ►

The pepper spraying of the students at UC Davis or the pepper spraying of the women

01:24:37 ►

in New York by Anthony Bologna, which were monumental in galvanizing not only support for the movement,

01:24:46 ►

but revulsion at the tactics used against this movement,

01:24:50 ►

came out of the media that the Occupy movement created.

01:24:53 ►

And I think that the more that they create parallel structures,

01:24:58 ►

they not only show the outside world another way to form interaction, social

01:25:06 ►

and even

01:25:08 ►

political interactions through the GA

01:25:09 ►

and everything else

01:25:10 ►

but they

01:25:13 ►

create

01:25:16 ►

fissures within

01:25:17 ►

the pillars of the establishment

01:25:19 ►

and I was in

01:25:21 ►

Leipzig for all

01:25:24 ►

the demonstrations before the wall came down,

01:25:27 ►

and there was a moment when the ruler of East Germany, Erich Honecker,

01:25:31 ►

sent down an elite paratroop division.

01:25:33 ►

It was a night.

01:25:34 ►

There were 70,000 marchers in Leipzig.

01:25:36 ►

Because he realized that as these numbers grew,

01:25:39 ►

it was only by using draconian force that he had any chance of regaining control,

01:25:44 ►

and they wouldn’t fire

01:25:46 ►

on the crowd. And at that moment, it’s over. I mean, people forget that the Russian Revolution

01:25:50 ►

was a peaceful event. It was the Bolsheviks who carried out a coup d’etat. But it was

01:25:58 ►

when the Cossacks and the elite units went to Petrograd and refused to fire on the crowds

01:26:03 ►

that it was finished. And I think that that very much is part of the brilliance of the Occupy movement,

01:26:11 ►

of creating those divisions between the sort of white-shirted inspectors

01:26:15 ►

and the rank and file within the police.

01:26:19 ►

And I think that that is the way to go, And that is most dangerous to the power leader.

01:26:25 ►

Just to bring it back to your proposal, in terms of, Chris was talking about Occupy creating

01:26:30 ►

parallel structures, other ways to interact with each other and to govern groups of people.

01:26:35 ►

You’re talking about working within, there’s a provision in the Constitution that allows

01:26:40 ►

people to change the structure of it. And you say we could work on multiple fronts.

01:26:44 ►

But would that draw energy off from this other type of activity?

01:26:48 ►

I don’t know why it has to,

01:26:49 ►

because that type of activity wants to find ways to express its effectiveness.

01:26:54 ►

And this is one way to express its effectiveness.

01:26:57 ►

I think that the occupied movement,

01:27:00 ►

I don’t purport to speak or even understand,

01:27:03 ►

but the occupied movement doesn’t want to become the Tea Party

01:27:06 ►

in the sense they don’t want to become quickly aligned

01:27:10 ►

with a whole bunch of inside Washington lobbyists

01:27:12 ►

on our side of the issue as opposed to the other side of the issue.

01:27:16 ►

But I think that there is a real value in demonstrating

01:27:21 ►

the way in which these alternative structures restructure society.

01:27:28 ►

And one way in which they do this is by beginning to exercise control over the government

01:27:33 ►

that the government itself doesn’t control.

01:27:34 ►

I mean, that is a quite extraordinary thing.

01:27:36 ►

We’ve never done it, right?

01:27:37 ►

So what if we did it?

01:27:38 ►

What would that mean?

01:27:40 ►

And the inspiration of the academic,

01:27:43 ►

there’s an extraordinary thing happening in Vermont right now where Vermont is pushing, people are pushing for a convention resolution in Vermont coming from the Occupy movement.

01:27:51 ►

But nobody, none of the real leaders there are people who are intense.

01:27:56 ►

There are people who are intense in the inspiration that this has caused.

01:28:02 ►

So I agree, it’s about reframing power,

01:28:05 ►

but let’s talk about all the places reframed power can have an effect.

01:28:08 ►

And maybe there’s a 0.01% chance that it has an effect in this path,

01:28:14 ►

but it’s worth it.

01:28:16 ►

Of course it’s worth it.

01:28:18 ►

It seems like you have different approaches,

01:28:20 ►

but have come around to saying, well, all approaches are good.

01:28:22 ►

Well, not all approaches are good.

01:28:22 ►

but have come around to saying, well, all approaches are good.

01:28:24 ►

Well, not all approaches are good.

01:28:33 ►

I would say all approaches that seek to delegitimize the centers of power are good and useful, and we need a multiplicity of approaches, as I think we’re both in agreement upon.

01:28:38 ►

And sitting around wringing our hands about whether they’re going to succeed or not before we try is a waste of time.

01:28:46 ►

We should just try.

01:28:47 ►

If it doesn’t work, we’ll try something else.

01:28:50 ►

And do you agree that anything that sort of is destabilizing the sort of central concentration of power is useful?

01:28:56 ►

Would you accept that as a way of thinking about your project?

01:29:00 ►

My focus is on the particular concentration of power inside the Beltway of Washington that destroys all sorts of social possibility

01:29:08 ►

and that’s the thing I’m going to destabilize first.

01:29:12 ►

Of course, that does a lot for what happens down here in downtown New York, too.

01:29:16 ►

So that’s a consequence of destabilizing that power.

01:29:20 ►

But I have a sequence and that’s where I want to start. I guess I have just one last question

01:29:24 ►

and it’s a little unfair

01:29:25 ►

because it probably calls for a long answer,

01:29:27 ►

but destabilizing that power first seems to call for a movement of such a size

01:29:33 ►

that maybe it wouldn’t really be interested in the end project

01:29:36 ►

of reforming electoral politics into the current system.

01:29:38 ►

You know, actually I don’t think that’s true.

01:29:42 ►

One of the most interesting consequences of Citizens United

01:29:45 ►

is that these people who used to be the barons of Washington, the incumbents,

01:29:51 ►

are all of a sudden the vassals of Washington

01:29:53 ►

because they are so terrified of this independent expenditures coming in

01:29:58 ►

and dropping on their campaign 30 days out.

01:30:01 ►

And the only way they can avoid the destruction is to run to a super PAC

01:30:08 ►

on their own side and get insurance. And how do you get insurance? You pay for it in advance. And

01:30:13 ►

how do you pay for it in advance? You vote and do exactly what that super PAC wants you to do

01:30:17 ►

so that when the bombs drop, they have the reason to come in and support you.

01:30:22 ►

So all of a sudden, I saw Evan Bayh talk about this,

01:30:29 ►

and it just struck me like obvious, right? All of a sudden, these guys who used to be the most important people are just one more set of vassals inside of this power structure, in exactly the

01:30:34 ►

way Chris was describing it. The real power has been shown, and these guys don’t have it.

01:30:37 ►

And they don’t like it. Like, they don’t want to be in Washington as, you know, it’s bad enough to

01:30:41 ►

have to be raising money all the time. But if you really aren’t the power and you can’t even hide it to yourself anymore, then

01:30:48 ►

they’re going to want something different.

01:30:50 ►

So I think that this is not stable.

01:30:52 ►

It’s not a stable equilibrium the way it was before Citizens United.

01:30:57 ►

Before Citizens United, it was stable.

01:31:00 ►

These guys just had the power.

01:31:01 ►

They liked it.

01:31:01 ►

And they played games with corporate power or whoever had to play games with

01:31:05 ►

but they don’t like this anymore

01:31:07 ►

so I understand the sense in which

01:31:10 ►

taking on the king sounds like the wrong thing to do

01:31:13 ►

how you take it on is extremely important

01:31:15 ►

but this is a moment

01:31:16 ►

this is more the French Revolution moment

01:31:18 ►

this is a moment when everything is falling apart

01:31:21 ►

at the same time

01:31:22 ►

and I think there’s a reason to be pushing on every front at the same time.

01:31:27 ►

Well, thank you guys both so much.

01:31:29 ►

I hope that you will continue to talk to each other today

01:31:32 ►

and maybe challenge each other a little bit.

01:31:35 ►

Thank you to the media team and to Livestream for bringing this,

01:31:39 ►

and to Aaron Bornstein who organized this talk for bringing it together.

01:31:43 ►

It’s been really cool.

01:31:44 ►

Great, thanks.

01:31:45 ►

Thanks.

01:31:47 ►

As Professor Lessig just said, this is a French Revolution moment,

01:31:52 ►

a point at which everything is coming unraveled at the same time.

01:31:56 ►

But, you know, it doesn’t seem like the status quo has been working out so well

01:32:01 ►

for the vast majority of our fellow humans.

01:32:06 ►

And so perhaps the fact that so many things seem to be falling apart, well, maybe that’s not so bad. As I’ve

01:32:12 ►

mentioned before, the work of the Nobel Prize winning chemist, Dela Progrotion, has been

01:32:17 ►

extrapolated and has shown that even in complex soups like civilizations, everything seems to have to jiggle loose

01:32:25 ►

into a more chaotic mixture

01:32:27 ►

before it can reorganize at a higher level.

01:32:31 ►

And that’s what I think is going on right now.

01:32:34 ►

But in order to help us all

01:32:36 ►

maybe rejiggle into a place of calm right now,

01:32:40 ►

I’m going to close by playing a new song

01:32:42 ►

from my friend and fellow podcaster, Jesse Miller,

01:32:45 ►

who you can find on iTunes and through the Mystic Mind podcast, where he provides much of his music for free.

01:32:53 ►

And the song you’ll be hearing is Into Your Heart, and it’s sung by singer-songwriter Jesse Miller.

01:32:59 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

01:33:04 ►

Be well, my friend. Thank you. Get out of your head and into your heart

01:34:03 ►

Space is so close yet worlds apart

01:34:08 ►

Seeking a sacred ground for a clearer view

01:34:16 ►

Remember to breathe and know that you are

01:34:25 ►

Bells are ringing

01:34:29 ►

And your heart’s a-sinking

01:34:32 ►

Who do I wanna be?

01:34:42 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:34:48 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:34:56 ►

You get to the end, begin from the start

01:35:03 ►

Begin from the start Get out of your head

01:35:08 ►

Into your heart

01:35:11 ►

A slave to my thoughts

01:35:16 ►

I finally am

01:35:18 ►

The trembling bones

01:35:24 ►

Of a tired man

01:35:27 ►

But now I feel I’m getting a second wind

01:35:34 ►

To carry me home to a foreign land Thank you. Get out of your head and into your heart

01:36:06 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:36:14 ►

And you get to the end, begin from the start

01:36:21 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:36:30 ►

Will we be this time next year?

01:36:40 ►

Will we see a revolution?

01:36:43 ►

Or will we be consumed by fear?

01:36:48 ►

Hold your chin up, hold your head high, it’s quite a time to be alive.

01:36:58 ►

In this world. Thank you. Bells are ringing

01:37:38 ►

Birds are singing

01:37:42 ►

Who do I want to be? Thank you. Get out of your head and into your heart When you get to the end, begin from the start

01:38:11 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:38:20 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:38:28 ►

Get out of your head and into your heart

01:38:36 ►

When you get to the end, begin from the start

01:38:44 ►

Begin from the start Get out your head

01:38:48 ►

Into your heart Thank you.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

298 - Terence McKenna_ Beyond 2012 Part 1

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