307 - Palenque Entheobotany Seminars Remembered

Program Notes

Guest speakers: Matt Pallamary, Wild Bill, & Bruce Damer

Today’s program features, first of all, a conversation between Matt Pallamary and Wild Bill, who begin by reminiscing about the legendary Palenque Entheobotany Seminars, but who then go on to other wild tales, some of which may actually be true. After that is the first of our long-awaited Global Trialogues in which Bruce Damer answers a question from a young man in Australia.

BRUCE’S BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS
Books by Eckhart Tolle
Terence McKenna: Beyond 2012
A workshop at Esalen Institute led by Bruce Damer and Lorenzo Hagerty
Weekend of June 15-17, 2012
Global Trialogue No. 1 … On Facebook
The “October Gallery” talk by Bruce Damer (MP3 files)
Part 1
Part 2

A Basic Theory of Neuropsychoanalysis by W. M. Bernstein
Thought Nachos

Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Greetings from Cyberdelic Space.

00:00:19 ►

This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:24 ►

And I’m happy to announce that our websites are somewhat back up and running.

00:00:29 ►

However, the transition from a shared hosting environment to our own dedicated server

00:00:34 ►

still has a week or more of work ahead of me before it’s completed.

00:00:39 ►

But things are actually progressing nicely,

00:00:42 ►

and thanks in no small measure to some of our fellow salonners

00:00:46 ►

who have either bought a copy of one of my books or who made direct donations to the salon.

00:00:51 ►

Your help and support are greatly appreciated, and hopefully you’ve already received my personal thank you message,

00:00:59 ►

unless that is you’re one of the three people who bought one of my Kindle books from Amazon,

00:01:04 ►

because they don’t send me any information about who you are.

00:01:08 ►

But that doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate your support, because I most certainly do.

00:01:15 ►

Now, today I’ve got something for you that you haven’t heard before.

00:01:19 ►

It’s a recording of a conversation between two of my very close friends.

00:01:24 ►

Originally, the plan was for me to join them to record this session,

00:01:27 ►

but due to some unforeseen circumstances, I wasn’t able to make it that day.

00:01:32 ►

And actually, without me butting in and adding my own two cents,

00:01:37 ►

I think that this conversation actually turned out better than if I’d been there.

00:01:42 ►

What you’re going to hear was originally conceived of as an attempt to

00:01:47 ►

tell more of the story of the now legendary and theobotany seminars that were held in Mexico,

00:01:53 ►

primarily in Palenque. And they were held over the course of a decade or so.

00:01:58 ►

And the two people who you are about to hear from, here reminiscing about them, are Matt Palomary and our mutual

00:02:06 ►

friend, Wild Bill. And after we listen to this conversation, I’ll be back with a few of my own

00:02:12 ►

observations about the Palenque experience. But first, I think we should hear what Mateo and Bill

00:02:18 ►

have to say so that I don’t tell some of the same stories. However, before I turn on the recording

00:02:24 ►

that Mateo made of their conversation, I’d first like to read part of the same stories. However, before I turn on the recording that Mateo made of their

00:02:25 ►

conversation, I’d first like to read part of the message on a little postcard that Terrence McKenna

00:02:32 ►

handed to me the very first time we met. It read, Shamanic Plant Seminars, Entheobotanical Seminars

00:02:41 ►

in Palenque. You are invited to join the Entheobotanists Giorgio Samarini, Paul Stamets, Thank you. not. Return with us to those lush and mysterious environs of Palenque for one of our pair of

00:03:06 ►

seven-day intensive seminars covering identification, cultivation, history, ethnobotany,

00:03:14 ►

chemistry, preparation, as well as the use of visionary shamanic plants, including psilocybin

00:03:21 ►

mushrooms, ayahuasca, shamanic snuffs, salvia divinorum, San Pedro cacti, and numerous others.

00:03:29 ►

Relax in verdant tropical splendor with a dozen leading experts in entheobotany

00:03:34 ►

who will detail their latest research for beginning and adept aficionados alike.

00:03:41 ►

Well, with a pitch like that, how could I resist? And so I went to Palenque, where on my

00:03:49 ►

second afternoon there, I walked down to the pool right after the morning lecture in a classroom at

00:03:54 ►

the top of the hill above the Chan Ka ruinous cabins where we all stayed, and I sat down next

00:04:00 ►

to a kind of a gruff talking guy who at the time had dyed his short hair blonde and

00:04:06 ►

who was reputed to be some kind of a law enforcement officer. Naturally, I was quite

00:04:11 ►

intimidated not knowing if he was a narc who was maybe there just to take our names and turn us in

00:04:17 ►

once we returned to the states. But the first thing that he did was to turn to me, pass a small pipe my way, and say,

00:04:26 ►

Here, do you want some hash?

00:04:33 ►

And that, of course, was the beginning of what has now blossomed into a beautiful friendship.

00:04:39 ►

So, let’s travel back in time to those marvelous days in Palenque with two old psychonauts who, between them, now have over 80 years of psychedelic experience.

00:04:46 ►

And as you’ll hear, they weren’t able to stay on the topic of Palenque seminars for long,

00:04:52 ►

but I think that the rest of their stories you’ll also find both enlightening and entertaining.

00:04:58 ►

Hello there. Welcome once again to the Psychedelic Salon.

00:05:02 ►

This is Matteo here, and I’m sitting in a wonderful natural setting

00:05:07 ►

with my very good friend known as Wild Bill.

00:05:14 ►

I like to call him Uncle Billy because I remember he told me a story about

00:05:19 ►

something with his nephew, and he said to his nephew something to the effect of,

00:05:24 ►

well, you know, your Uncle Billy’s kind of got a little few screws loose and this was my niece so that endeared me

00:05:31 ►

to him so what we’re doing is we’re uh i met bill down in the palenque entheobotany seminars and

00:05:39 ►

actually uh we’re talking i actually met him in oshmal in 98 and we’ve known each other ever since, and we’ve done some adventures together.

00:05:48 ►

We’ve been to the jungle together. We’ve been to the Andes together.

00:05:51 ►

We’ve been kind of all over the map together and had some really awesome adventures.

00:05:56 ►

Freaking hang gliding over the Sacred Valley and parasailing, all that.

00:06:02 ►

So we’re going to be talking about the old days of the Palenque seminars.

00:06:07 ►

And Bill is an interesting character.

00:06:10 ►

He was a parole officer,

00:06:14 ►

and he’s been a diehard student of visionary experience

00:06:19 ►

and hung around a lot with Alex Grant and stuff like that.

00:06:22 ►

So welcome to the salon, Bill.

00:06:26 ►

It’s really good to have you here.

00:06:27 ►

Hey, Mateo.

00:06:29 ►

How did you come about getting to the seminars,

00:06:34 ►

the Entheo Botany Seminars in the first place?

00:06:36 ►

What brought you there?

00:06:37 ►

Interesting story.

00:06:38 ►

I had gone to school in San Antonio,

00:06:41 ►

and my wife at the time was on the executive board of IA

00:06:48 ►

and they had a convention in San Antonio.

00:06:51 ►

So I went down.

00:06:52 ►

This was in the early 90s.

00:06:55 ►

And I walked into a magazine shop

00:06:58 ►

and there was this magazine with a candy-colored mushroom line

00:07:03 ►

called Psychedelic Illuminations.

00:07:06 ►

And I said, oh, Jesus, they’re still doing it.

00:07:11 ►

So I immediately, and San Antonio, of all places, defined this thing.

00:07:14 ►

Never saw it in New York.

00:07:15 ►

So I picked it up.

00:07:17 ►

Took it back to, and I’m reading through it.

00:07:19 ►

And I’m just going bonkers, you know.

00:07:20 ►

And there’s all this stuff about this guy, Terrence McKenna.

00:07:24 ►

So I get back

00:07:25 ►

to New York, and I happen to be down in the open center, and there on the shelf, they have,

00:07:32 ►

they had his book, The Archaic Revival, I picked that up, I read it, just blew my mind completely

00:07:37 ►

away, and then I saw they had a workshop with him, two-day workshop, so I went to that, and it was

00:07:43 ►

just, I sat right in front. It was absolutely fabulous.

00:07:46 ►

About 20 of us in a room with him.

00:07:47 ►

So we got to spend two days talking to him.

00:07:50 ►

And

00:07:51 ►

he was telling us about this big

00:07:54 ►

conference, Anthony Obotny conference

00:07:55 ►

going to be out in San Francisco.

00:07:58 ►

I forget what year was that.

00:08:00 ►

96? Did you go to that? Yeah.

00:08:01 ►

I was there. Oh, I think everybody.

00:08:03 ►

That’s the first time I ever went.

00:08:05 ►

Yeah.

00:08:06 ►

Yeah, right on. Okay.

00:08:08 ►

I walked in. It was kind of a shock.

00:08:14 ►

I walked in with my cowboy boots and my jean jacket with the big dragon on the back and my New York attitude and stuff.

00:08:18 ►

I didn’t get to know. I really didn’t get to meet any people there.

00:08:22 ►

But I got to see, you know, there was Cary Mullis was speaking.

00:08:22 ►

Right.

00:08:25 ►

And I remember that he brought that band out.

00:08:25 ►

Yeah.

00:08:27 ►

Jonathan Ott.

00:08:27 ►

Right.

00:08:28 ►

All these great guys.

00:08:29 ►

Wade Davis was there.

00:08:31 ►

Yeah, Wade Davis, yeah.

00:08:31 ►

Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:08:34 ►

That really was, that was impressive.

00:08:34 ►

Yes.

00:08:39 ►

And while I was there, there was this handout about these Palenque seminars.

00:08:42 ►

And I looked at that and I said, this looks interesting as well. And I really thought it was field trips going collecting plants and stuff.

00:08:46 ►

So when I got back to the city, I talked to my wife, who is not into this at all.

00:08:53 ►

Not into it.

00:08:54 ►

She’s straight arrow.

00:08:57 ►

I said, I’d really like to do this.

00:09:11 ►

In 97, I traveled down through Villa Mosa to Palenque and showed up at this place, the Chancar Ruinas.

00:09:17 ►

I met two other guys, one guy from New York and a guy from Georgia along the way, so we traveled down there.

00:09:22 ►

And it was incredible.

00:09:25 ►

It was incredible. It was incredible. It was like I met all these unbelievably, most of the people I met were really bright.

00:09:33 ►

A lot of them were into interesting jobs.

00:09:35 ►

They loved the work they were doing.

00:09:37 ►

They were really open.

00:09:38 ►

And it was such a laid back, such a laid back, I call it a laid back man.

00:09:43 ►

It was really cool.

00:09:44 ►

I got to meet

00:09:45 ►

all these different people. Unfortunately for us, we had signed up late, so they stuck

00:09:50 ►

us up on, if anybody’s been to Palenque, where they have that conference hall across the

00:09:56 ►

street that’s up on the hill. Oh yeah, on the hill, right. Yeah, we were stashed there

00:09:59 ►

up on the hill. So we were kind of separate separate from a lot what was going on down below

00:10:05 ►

but uh it was it was just uh absolutely incredible what really turned me on was there were all these

00:10:15 ►

these teachers all these scholars and stuff who were so willing to talk about what they knew and

00:10:20 ►

share the information and the people were just so, just so welcoming. I,

00:10:25 ►

in fact, I went to Terrence, I said, you know, Terrence, it’s like I showed up at this family

00:10:29 ►

reunion. I met these cousins I had heard about, but never, you know, had never met. And Terrence

00:10:35 ►

just turned to me and says, well, that’s why we call it our gang. And, uh, it’s, it was just phenomenal.

00:10:47 ►

The setting was incredible.

00:10:49 ►

It’s interesting.

00:10:50 ►

I didn’t realize you were at the seminars in San Francisco there

00:10:56 ►

because in 96, that was my first contact with people.

00:10:59 ►

It took me until 98 to go to Ushma, where we initially met.

00:11:04 ►

You know, I noticed that one time I saw you had the T-shirt,

00:11:10 ►

I call it the G-string T-shirt with the deer on it, which I have in a T-shirt.

00:11:14 ►

I almost picked that up.

00:11:16 ►

And when I saw you had it, because I went back to get it, it was gone.

00:11:18 ►

You son of a bitch, you’re the one who bought it.

00:11:22 ►

Yeah, I’m glad you think of that.

00:11:24 ►

But I actually got that one on Real De Catarse when I did the pe who bought it. Yeah, I’m glad you think of that. But I actually got that one on Real De Catorce when I did the peyote ritual.

00:11:29 ►

Oh, I thought so.

00:11:30 ►

I did the whole, I went to.

00:11:32 ►

Well, you’re absolved then, man.

00:11:33 ►

Thank you.

00:11:34 ►

I haven’t had a little resentment.

00:11:35 ►

That’s why you’ve been freaking giving me all that shit.

00:11:37 ►

I haven’t had a resentment about that.

00:11:38 ►

But it was just completely blown away at just how relaxed and cool it was

00:11:45 ►

and all the stuff they wore on outside the classrooms

00:11:48 ►

and just bonded with a whole bunch of people, complete strangers.

00:11:52 ►

There were people from all over the world.

00:11:55 ►

And, of course, there was Terrence, who was kind of like the…

00:11:58 ►

Pied Piper?

00:11:59 ►

Yeah.

00:12:00 ►

Well, you know, I always saw Terrence as kind of a John the Baptist figure.

00:12:03 ►

Yeah.

00:12:04 ►

Walked calling people out of the desert, calling. I said, you know, Terrence McK a kind of a John the Baptist figure. Yeah. Walked calling people out of the desert, calling.

00:12:06 ►

I said, you know, Terrence McKenna called me in from the cold.

00:12:09 ►

Yep.

00:12:10 ►

And I think he did that for a lot of people who had kind of drifted away from it.

00:12:14 ►

Yep.

00:12:15 ►

He got people back in.

00:12:17 ►

Me too.

00:12:17 ►

And it was just fun.

00:12:20 ►

And you could sit with, I remember we were sitting at the breakfast table one morning.

00:12:25 ►

And I mentioned about some poetry by Yeats I really loved.

00:12:29 ►

And then he says, you want to hear a good poem about vegetable love?

00:12:35 ►

And he recited from memory the poem To a Coy Mistress.

00:12:39 ►

I realized this guy was a walking nought in the anthology of English literature.

00:12:43 ►

He probably had all this stuff memorized.

00:12:46 ►

He was a fascinating character because he was a true Renaissance man.

00:12:51 ►

Yeah.

00:12:51 ►

He had his fingers in good knowledge of such a range of topics,

00:12:56 ►

from mathematics to poetry to ethno-botany and, I mean, all sorts of stuff.

00:13:02 ►

He was just a phenomenal fount of information.

00:13:05 ►

And all the teachers there were just really up on their stuff.

00:13:09 ►

And that’s where I met Sasha Shulgin for the first time.

00:13:13 ►

Right.

00:13:15 ►

And Ann.

00:13:16 ►

And I just immediately said, boy, these are the parents I never had.

00:13:20 ►

Yeah.

00:13:20 ►

They were really good.

00:13:22 ►

She was really straight from the heart, and he was just entertaining.

00:13:25 ►

And for the first time in my life, I began to get a grasp of what organic chemistry was about.

00:13:30 ►

Right, dirty pictures, right?

00:13:32 ►

Yeah, yeah, it was good.

00:13:34 ►

And the setting down there in the Chancar Ruinas is just absolutely incredible.

00:13:40 ►

Yeah, it was magic.

00:13:42 ►

You know, I said, you could spend a week down there in that crowd and not turn on,

00:13:47 ►

and you would still get just a beautiful buzz just from the people and the location.

00:13:55 ►

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:55 ►

And the ruins were just out of sight.

00:13:58 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:13:58 ►

I still have boxes.

00:14:00 ►

I haven’t edited the pictures from 97.

00:14:02 ►

I have pictures from 97 and 99.

00:14:04 ►

Yeah, even up in Ultralight,

00:14:05 ►

I got some pictures of the ruins from above

00:14:08 ►

coming down through the clouds.

00:14:10 ►

I finally bought another slide thing so I can edit,

00:14:12 ►

and hopefully by the end of the year,

00:14:14 ►

I’ll actually have all these pictures from Palenque.

00:14:17 ►

Yeah.

00:14:18 ►

And Uxmal as well.

00:14:20 ►

Not all the people, just the ruins and the jungle and stuff.

00:14:23 ►

It was incredible.

00:14:25 ►

Yeah. In fact, Fort of the Gods, Terrence, Fort the jungle and stuff. It was incredible. Yeah.

00:14:26 ►

In fact, Food of the Gods, Terrence, is what got me back.

00:14:29 ►

I took a 13-year hiatus from everything.

00:14:32 ►

Yeah.

00:14:32 ►

And then when I read Food of the Gods, I was hooked.

00:14:34 ►

And I thought that there could be spirituality associated with psychedelics was a novel idea to me.

00:14:40 ►

Yeah.

00:14:40 ►

You know, I don’t know what’s funny.

00:14:42 ►

I hadn’t really done any.

00:14:44 ►

I only did one trip.

00:14:46 ►

I did most of my heavy tripping in 1970 and 71

00:14:51 ►

when I was stationed in Berlin in the United States Army.

00:14:53 ►

Yeah.

00:14:54 ►

I was the Berlin Brigade Command Editor and stuff.

00:14:57 ►

And that’s when I did a lot of,

00:15:00 ►

when I wasn’t going to graduate school at night,

00:15:01 ►

so I was dropping acid.

00:15:03 ►

Big doses.

00:15:04 ►

Big education.

00:15:05 ►

Oh, big doses.

00:15:06 ►

Yeah, I remember the night we did like 750 mics by accident.

00:15:09 ►

We thought something wasn’t working

00:15:11 ►

and it didn’t come on so we took some more.

00:15:12 ►

Holy shit.

00:15:14 ►

It was really rocking and rolling.

00:15:16 ►

That’s also where I, you know,

00:15:18 ►

instead of just becoming just a jerk,

00:15:21 ►

in the Army Library of all places,

00:15:23 ►

I found a copy of The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley

00:15:27 ►

and The Joyous Cosmology by Alan Watts.

00:15:31 ►

And so right from the start, I just put a perspective on all that.

00:15:35 ►

You know, before I was in, what, meeting God, seeing God, divining my true self,

00:15:40 ►

I just wanted to rock and roll.

00:15:41 ►

Right, you and me both, bro.

00:15:42 ►

I couldn’t afford to go hiking in the Tibetan Himalayas, go to Discovery,

00:15:46 ►

but for about five bucks I could go to outer space.

00:15:49 ►

Right.

00:15:49 ►

Or inner space, as it is.

00:15:51 ►

So I did it for thrills and kicks.

00:15:53 ►

And then luckily I learned that there’s a lot more going on behind this.

00:15:57 ►

And those two dudes, Huxley and Watts, really put everything into perspective for me.

00:16:03 ►

I still liked it.

00:16:04 ►

The thrills, shirt, of course.

00:16:05 ►

Yeah, of course.

00:16:06 ►

But it gave me an idea of what was on.

00:16:09 ►

There’s actually work being done,

00:16:11 ►

and you’re actually doing self-improvement,

00:16:13 ►

having fun doing it.

00:16:14 ►

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:16:15 ►

Not always fun.

00:16:16 ►

Oh, I’m telling you.

00:16:17 ►

I really confronted a lot of things.

00:16:20 ►

I remember the one night when we had a…

00:16:22 ►

When I lived off-base, we had a…

00:16:24 ►

Boy, we’re getting away from Palenque, aren’t we?

00:16:25 ►

That’s okay.

00:16:26 ►

We’re talking about you, too.

00:16:27 ►

In this apartment we had off base, we had huge speakers in each corner.

00:16:32 ►

I mean, the rooms were like 10 by 10.

00:16:33 ►

We had huge speakers and stuff.

00:16:35 ►

And I remember doing a massive dose of acid.

00:16:37 ►

And I’m listening to Aqualung by Jethro Tull.

00:16:40 ►

And he gets into that thing that on the other side, he gets into the, some people call it anti-clerical attitude,

00:16:49 ►

but he really put religion in its place.

00:16:51 ►

Yeah.

00:16:52 ►

And that was the night I really was able to scrub clean

00:16:54 ►

some of my Polish Catholic roots.

00:16:57 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:16:58 ►

It was something else.

00:17:00 ►

It was a life changer.

00:17:02 ►

So when I came back to the States, I kind of,

00:17:04 ►

I continued to smoke grass,

00:17:05 ►

but I got away from the psychedelics because I began working.

00:17:08 ►

I was working in a drug prevention program.

00:17:10 ►

Oh, yeah, I did get busted.

00:17:12 ►

That’s true, yeah.

00:17:13 ►

I did get busted in Ohio hitchhiking.

00:17:16 ►

And I got arrested for attempting to introduce illusions and hallucinations

00:17:22 ►

into Tuscarawas County, Ohio.

00:17:25 ►

And I was facing

00:17:26 ►

a felony.

00:17:28 ►

And I talked to

00:17:30 ►

the prosecutor.

00:17:32 ►

And we had talked and he knew what my shtick was.

00:17:34 ►

I was just hitchhiking. I was hitchhiking from Austin.

00:17:37 ►

And

00:17:37 ►

we worked it out where I wound up doing

00:17:40 ►

30 days in jail.

00:17:43 ►

During the 4th of July, too.

00:17:44 ►

It was interesting.

00:17:47 ►

And that 30 days in jail was a real education.

00:17:52 ►

I learned how to play gin rummy.

00:17:53 ►

It was unbeatable for three days.

00:17:55 ►

But that added to my…

00:17:58 ►

I had that certain sensibility about it.

00:18:01 ►

So later on when I was working with people who were…

00:18:03 ►

I worked in prison for six years and stuff,

00:18:06 ►

it was almost a natural. I was almost, you know,

00:18:07 ►

comfortable walking around the joint.

00:18:10 ►

But even

00:18:12 ►

though I wasn’t doing

00:18:13 ►

LSD or any of the psychedelics

00:18:15 ►

at that point,

00:18:18 ►

you know, once you’ve been through it,

00:18:19 ►

once you’ve been through the grinder, and I don’t mean

00:18:21 ►

this 50 mic stuff, you know,

00:18:24 ►

half-stepping. Once you’ve been through the real deep and I don’t mean this 50-mic stuff, you know, half-stepping.

00:18:25 ►

Once you’ve been through the real deep trip where you lose that.

00:18:29 ►

I remember that one night when I finally went over the edge and I was reduced to, as I told Ann Shulgin,

00:18:35 ►

I was like this tiny speck of consciousness rushing through the universe.

00:18:41 ►

And the thing that surprised me the most, I had absolutely no fear.

00:18:45 ►

It was absolutely beautiful.

00:18:47 ►

Once you’ve done that, it just changes everything.

00:18:51 ►

And I still had that while working in the prison system

00:18:55 ►

and working in parole on the street and stuff like that.

00:18:59 ►

There was no way I could not look at the big picture.

00:19:02 ►

There’s no way that I could not look at the big picture. There’s no way that I could not look at the relationships

00:19:08 ►

between things. Because once you’re on a deep acid trip, you know, everything’s in this

00:19:11 ►

big net and all meshes and stuff. And everything is interconnected. And actually, to me, it

00:19:19 ►

gave me a clearer picture of what was going on. Unfortunately, in the milieu, that kind

00:19:24 ►

of vision and stuff is really not appreciated. And it probably led me into a picture of what was going on, unfortunately in that milieu, that kind of vision and stuff is really not appreciated.

00:19:26 ►

And it probably led me into a lot of problems and stuff like that.

00:19:30 ►

But to me, it gave me a great sense of satisfaction because I figured I had things really nailed

00:19:34 ►

down.

00:19:35 ►

And like I said in other conversations, I think that the LSD and that all the time in

00:19:42 ►

jail, I didn’t have problems with the parolees.

00:19:46 ►

You know? I had no problems. I was able to talk to

00:19:48 ►

them. I had a problem with the

00:19:49 ►

authority figures and stuff because

00:19:51 ►

they were really uptight. It’s a Jewish culture.

00:19:54 ►

It’s a Jewish culture.

00:19:55 ►

It was tough.

00:19:59 ►

Now when

00:20:00 ►

I discovered psychedelic

00:20:01 ►

illuminations, I went

00:20:04 ►

back to it and took another step.

00:20:05 ►

And I’ll tell you, I think probably that’s when I really started to have difficulties on my job.

00:20:10 ►

Yeah, because you saw the bullshit and all the lies and the false.

00:20:16 ►

Yeah.

00:20:17 ►

And I’m saying, you guys really don’t want to do anything.

00:20:20 ►

You could be grinding out tortillas here at the factory instead of people.

00:20:24 ►

You could be grinding out tortillas here at the factory instead of people.

00:20:32 ►

But, I mean, Palenque was just, it just pushed me in a direction.

00:20:35 ►

Once I’d been to Palenque, I said, no, I’ve got to stay with this.

00:20:50 ►

This is the greatest assortment of bright, and there were plenty of assholes and fools and stuff like that. But I’d never seen that many really bright, intelligent, warm, human, easy to relate to people.

00:20:55 ►

And at first, I got to taste some really great hash oil.

00:20:56 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:20:57 ►

It was good stuff there. I remember there was this brother from Indiana who used to get all the weed from the growers.

00:21:08 ►

He would get all their shake.

00:21:10 ►

And what he would do is he’d say,

00:21:12 ►

Look, you give it to me and we’ll go 50-50 when I make the oil.

00:21:16 ►

And we were sitting there, about 10 of us sitting on this ramp,

00:21:19 ►

looking down into the valley up in that high spot.

00:21:22 ►

Yeah, right.

00:21:23 ►

I remember that, yeah.

00:21:23 ►

We’re looking down in the valley. We’re up in that high spot. Yeah, right. On top of that. I remember that, yeah. We’re looking down in the valley.

00:21:25 ►

It’s evening.

00:21:26 ►

And he takes out this little leather case,

00:21:30 ►

and there are seven vials of hash oil from dark to light.

00:21:34 ►

Oh, wow.

00:21:35 ►

And he got a little pipe out, and we started working it.

00:21:39 ►

He says, all right, you guys ready for the next one?

00:21:42 ►

I tried another one.

00:21:43 ►

He got about halfway through their thing.

00:21:45 ►

This is really funny.

00:21:46 ►

He says, okay, you all ready for this one?

00:21:51 ►

And all of us turned.

00:21:53 ►

There’s one person that was really funny.

00:21:55 ►

At the same time, he said, no thanks.

00:21:57 ►

He’s had enough.

00:21:59 ►

But it was really cool.

00:22:01 ►

A lot of good memories.

00:22:02 ►

And then the next year when Ushmal came up.

00:22:04 ►

Right.

00:22:04 ►

That’s my first year.

00:22:06 ►

That was a completely different setting, man.

00:22:08 ►

It was, didn’t quite like it as much as, the conference was great,

00:22:12 ►

didn’t like the setting as much, kind of dry and stuff.

00:22:14 ►

Didn’t have that rainforest wetness and green, you know,

00:22:19 ►

the thousand different shades of green and stuff.

00:22:22 ►

Yeah.

00:22:23 ►

And Ushmaul was quite an experience.

00:22:31 ►

And again, I was,

00:22:33 ►

but the accessibility of people.

00:22:36 ►

I remember the first day there,

00:22:41 ►

Ann and Sasha get up and talk,

00:22:43 ►

and I said, you know,

00:22:43 ►

I’ve been to this talk before,

00:22:45 ►

so let me get out.

00:22:46 ►

I want to get out and walk around.

00:22:47 ►

And I ran into Peter first.

00:22:49 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:22:49 ►

He was on the steps.

00:22:51 ►

He’s waiting for a ride.

00:22:53 ►

So I just wanted to tell him,

00:22:54 ►

because he did that great first talk

00:22:57 ►

about the objects that the antique stealers

00:23:02 ►

couldn’t figure out what they were.

00:23:03 ►

They were for enemas, right?

00:23:05 ►

Yeah, yeah, for enemas and stuff.

00:23:06 ►

It was really exciting.

00:23:07 ►

Yeah, San Pedro enemas.

00:23:08 ►

Yeah.

00:23:09 ►

And I went to tell him, you know, what a great time I had with it,

00:23:11 ►

and I figured, you know, I’d say hi, goodbye, and all that.

00:23:14 ►

We wound up talking for almost an hour until his ride came.

00:23:17 ►

And again, it impressed me.

00:23:18 ►

He was a guy, a real great scholar and stuff.

00:23:20 ►

He didn’t want to just sit here and talk about the stuff and share all he had.

00:23:22 ►

and stuff. He doesn’t want to sit here and talk about the stuff and share all he had.

00:23:24 ►

Yeah.

00:23:26 ►

And what was

00:23:27 ►

significant about Ushma too,

00:23:29 ►

is that, remember when we went down to Palenque, I didn’t know

00:23:31 ►

about bringing stuff into the country.

00:23:34 ►

Yeah. A lot of people didn’t know.

00:23:36 ►

They didn’t realize it’s no problem bringing it in,

00:23:38 ►

it’s just getting it out. Right.

00:23:39 ►

So when I went to Ushma, I went loaded with my

00:23:41 ►

jar of holy shit,

00:23:43 ►

which was the peanut butter with the cannabis in it.

00:23:46 ►

Yeah.

00:23:46 ►

And I had mushrooms.

00:23:48 ►

I had all the stuff.

00:23:50 ►

And some weed.

00:23:51 ►

And I came down there.

00:23:52 ►

A lot of people had nothing.

00:23:53 ►

I said it was kind of funny that the only guy here who has the dope is the…

00:23:57 ►

The PO?

00:23:58 ►

Is the law enforcement guy.

00:24:00 ►

Of course.

00:24:02 ►

And that was an incredible experience.

00:24:04 ►

That’s when I met Amanda Fielding.

00:24:06 ►

Right.

00:24:07 ►

And Jamie, Antonio Escatado.

00:24:10 ►

Yep.

00:24:11 ►

I remember one, I think you guys all went to the pyramids the night Jonathan and I got married,

00:24:15 ►

had that marriage wedding ceremony on top of the pyramids.

00:24:18 ►

Yeah.

00:24:19 ►

I didn’t go for that.

00:24:20 ►

That was a powerful night.

00:24:21 ►

Yeah, my friend Lou and I said, we’re going to hang back here.

00:24:23 ►

We wound up sitting by the poolside,

00:24:27 ►

and Antonio Oshkotai was talking about Thomas Jefferson.

00:24:33 ►

And we’re sitting there, and Amanda comes up with Jamie and goes,

00:24:36 ►

would you gentlemen like to smoke some hashish?

00:24:37 ►

I said, yeah.

00:24:41 ►

And we spent the night there just hanging out, smoking, and talking about stuff.

00:24:45 ►

I remember that night at the Pyramids.

00:24:45 ►

Yeah.

00:24:49 ►

I ended up on like four hits of acid sitting on top of the Magician’s Pyramid

00:24:51 ►

with a guy named Stuart from Australia

00:24:52 ►

with a didgeridoo.

00:24:54 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:24:55 ►

He was, yeah.

00:24:56 ►

He was a cool cat.

00:24:58 ►

What was cool about that conference

00:24:59 ►

is that night we’d be sitting on the poolside

00:25:01 ►

people shrooming out

00:25:02 ►

and he’d be,

00:25:04 ►

it sounded like he was on the roof of the hotel.

00:25:07 ►

Yeah.

00:25:07 ►

With that didgeridoo.

00:25:08 ►

It would be gone.

00:25:09 ►

It was all, it was fueling the whole thing all night.

00:25:11 ►

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:12 ►

It was awesome.

00:25:12 ►

And, you know, I had seen him in Merida the week before.

00:25:16 ►

I had no idea he was coming out to that thing.

00:25:18 ►

I said, this is an interesting dude.

00:25:22 ►

And he said, you want to learn how to play?

00:25:25 ►

Stupid. I should have said play? Stupid. I should have

00:25:25 ►

said yeah. I should have said yeah.

00:25:27 ►

It would have been a great idea. But that was cool because the didgeridoo

00:25:30 ►

was constantly going.

00:25:31 ►

I remember that night. That’s the night I had

00:25:33 ►

one of the most incredible mushroom experiences

00:25:35 ►

I’ve ever had.

00:25:36 ►

I was only on two grams.

00:25:41 ►

I’d been out

00:25:41 ►

burning copal and stuff

00:25:43 ►

and trying to make a flowable thing and things were not working out and mushroom wasn’t coming on

00:25:48 ►

right and stuff so I dumped all the pretentious bullshit

00:25:51 ►

and I just took a pillow and a blanket and I went up by the

00:25:56 ►

poolside, the big platform they had, and I just laid down under

00:26:00 ►

the sky, there was a clear sky, full moon

00:26:03 ►

and things were kind of dark. And I said,

00:26:07 ►

come on, come on, guys in trouble, lighten up a bit. And suddenly there was this creature in

00:26:12 ►

front of me, entity. It looked like he had running lights all over his body of purples and

00:26:18 ►

different shades of purple and ultraviolet and blue and dancing in front of me.

00:26:25 ►

And it was just the most incredible thing I’d ever seen.

00:26:28 ►

And then I looked up at the sky and staring at the moon.

00:26:31 ►

And there was this huge, huge diaphanous, almost looked like a jellyfish.

00:26:37 ►

And it was like the round corona or halo of the moon.

00:26:42 ►

And I said, you know, it looks like I’m under a giant diaphanous mushroom cap.

00:26:47 ►

And I just sat there all night just completely moonstruck.

00:26:50 ►

That’s the only way I could think of, moonstruck.

00:26:53 ►

And it was just an absolutely glorious experience.

00:26:55 ►

And you could see the ruins off in the distance where you guys are.

00:26:58 ►

I think it’s four hits of acid and you’re on top of the magician’s pyramid.

00:27:02 ►

It’s a bitch, man.

00:27:02 ►

I know.

00:27:03 ►

And that didge, man.

00:27:04 ►

You’ve got to pull yourself up by that chain.

00:27:05 ►

Oh, and he was playing that didge, and everything was just kind of going.

00:27:08 ►

Everything was like breathing and flexing.

00:27:11 ►

Yeah, it was really incredible.

00:27:12 ►

I’ll tell you, Ushma was in really incredible, incredible ruins.

00:27:15 ►

Yeah.

00:27:16 ►

And that one spot where you have that courtyard, you’d be a great place to hold a concert in there.

00:27:20 ►

Yeah.

00:27:21 ►

Or do a rave.

00:27:22 ►

Good acoustics.

00:27:23 ►

Have the DJ set up and stuff.

00:27:24 ►

Yeah.

00:27:24 ►

Yeah. It do a rave. Good acoustics. Have the DJ set up and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:25 ►

It was phenomenal.

00:27:26 ►

I knew this and I don’t remember, but the guys chased us out of there about five in

00:27:30 ►

the morning shooting their guns.

00:27:31 ►

Oh, I didn’t know they were shooting guns.

00:27:32 ►

Yeah, they were like, get out of here.

00:27:33 ►

And they started shooting.

00:27:34 ►

They started shooting.

00:27:35 ►

Wow.

00:27:35 ►

I know they came and busted everything up.

00:27:37 ►

Yeah.

00:27:38 ►

We saw people coming back in dribs and drabs and stuff.

00:27:42 ►

Yeah.

00:27:43 ►

That was really some experience. Yeah. people coming back and dribs and drabs and stuff yeah that was that was uh yeah that was that was

00:27:45 ►

really some experience yeah so um one of the things about the palenque seminars when i went

00:27:53 ►

i recorded everything meticulously i had boxes of tapes and um when lorenzo started the salon

00:28:01 ►

he asked me and i gave him tapes and a lot of the initial podcasts were from the tapes that I had.

00:28:05 ►

And one of the great ones

00:28:06 ►

was Christian Reich.

00:28:08 ►

He had lived with

00:28:09 ►

the Lacandon Indians

00:28:11 ►

around the ruins

00:28:12 ►

in Palenque.

00:28:13 ►

Oh yeah.

00:28:14 ►

And he gave us

00:28:15 ►

a tour of the ruins

00:28:15 ►

with stuff that

00:28:17 ►

even the tour guides

00:28:18 ►

didn’t know

00:28:18 ►

and I recorded it, right?

00:28:20 ►

Oh, you did record it.

00:28:21 ►

I recorded it.

00:28:21 ►

So Lorenzo got that.

00:28:22 ►

He put it on our podcast

00:28:24 ►

and this kid from China downloaded the podcast. This is when iPods were still new, right? Oh, you did record it. I recorded it. So Lorenzo got that. He put it on a podcast and this kid from China

00:28:25 ►

downloaded the podcast.

00:28:27 ►

His iPods were still new, right? And he went to

00:28:30 ►

the ruins and he went on the tour listening to Chris

00:28:31 ►

John Royce on his freaking iPod,

00:28:34 ►

which was great.

00:28:36 ►

He was special. So

00:28:37 ►

the great thing, and I don’t want to get your take

00:28:40 ►

on this. I’m building up to something here, but

00:28:41 ►

one of the great things about those seminars

00:28:44 ►

is that not only did you have the

00:28:46 ►

psychedelic authorities, the

00:28:47 ►

anthropologists and professors and chemists,

00:28:50 ►

but you had chemists, you had writers,

00:28:52 ►

you had musicians, you had artists.

00:28:54 ►

And everybody came together with common ground.

00:28:56 ►

So it was really, like you said, really amazing.

00:28:58 ►

It was the greatest.

00:28:59 ►

I mean, I’m sitting

00:29:01 ►

and having lunch with a guy who helped fix the

00:29:04 ►

Hubble Space Telescope. I’m going, geezez how cool is that i mean it’s very cool

00:29:09 ►

christian oh man what a trip that guy was yeah we met him the first time in 97 with that long

00:29:15 ►

hair and stuff look like jesus and i remember going up to ruins he’s hanging out talking to

00:29:18 ►

all the lock and dones that are there doing this and he’s rapping to them in their language they’re

00:29:22 ►

fascinating he was a fascinating guy was i was. I had fun with him.

00:29:25 ►

When I was, in 2006, I went to Basel for the first international honesty.

00:29:31 ►

Yeah, the Albert Hoffman thing with the international conference thing.

00:29:34 ►

And I bought his encyclopedia.

00:29:37 ►

Yeah.

00:29:37 ►

And I got him to sign it.

00:29:39 ►

Oh, good.

00:29:40 ►

That sucker is on top.

00:29:41 ►

That’s a great book.

00:29:42 ►

Christian was a real trip.

00:29:44 ►

And his story is about living among the Lacan Dom.

00:29:47 ►

I remember he says, when I showed up, because he had his hair just like theirs did,

00:29:52 ►

and the village elder said, oh, I’ve been expecting you.

00:29:55 ►

A little monkey came to me in a dream a few days ago and said, you’re going to be on your way.

00:30:00 ►

So you’ve been expected, son.

00:30:02 ►

And they brought him in.

00:30:03 ►

He was a real trip. Put him and Jonathan Ott together. It was just like it was a dream. expected, son. And they brought him in. He was a real trip.

00:30:06 ►

Put him and Jonathan out together.

00:30:08 ►

It was just like it was a…

00:30:09 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:30:10 ►

Man, it just twisted the world around to a different thing.

00:30:13 ►

You didn’t even have to be on trucks.

00:30:15 ►

And Jonathan looks like a guy who lives under a tree.

00:30:19 ►

Yeah.

00:30:19 ►

I mean, you know, he looks like a real forest-type creature.

00:30:22 ►

Forest creature.

00:30:23 ►

Yeah.

00:30:24 ►

But that was just amazing.

00:30:26 ►

Then when I went back in 99,

00:30:28 ►

I actually brought my wife

00:30:29 ►

because I figured I’d introduce her to people

00:30:31 ►

and put her at kind of ease.

00:30:37 ►

And so I missed a lot of the extracurricular stuff.

00:30:41 ►

Because there was a, yeah.

00:30:42 ►

Oh, there’s tons of that.

00:30:44 ►

There was tons of it.

00:30:44 ►

And so you were getting things on different levels you were getting all the lectures

00:30:47 ►

all day and into the night and then chemists underground chemists would come and they’d have

00:30:52 ►

new things that they got from sasha’s cookbook yeah and they were trying them out and handing

00:30:56 ►

them out and so you did you had you had intellectual and experiential learning which

00:31:00 ►

was really awesome you know what i liked about that I also felt that if you were going to try anything for the first

00:31:06 ►

time,

00:31:07 ►

this was a really good place to do it

00:31:10 ►

because these people knew what the hell was going on.

00:31:12 ►

And they really cared

00:31:13 ►

about your welfare and stuff.

00:31:16 ►

And

00:31:17 ►

that’s where I did my first 5-MEO.

00:31:20 ►

Yeah.

00:31:21 ►

I was having dinner with my wife and

00:31:22 ►

our friend, the the dentist comes up and

00:31:25 ►

says, hey, would

00:31:26 ►

you like to try

00:31:27 ►

some of this

00:31:27 ►

and five M.E.O.

00:31:29 ►

and I said,

00:31:30 ►

sure.

00:31:31 ►

I said, honey,

00:31:32 ►

excuse me for

00:31:32 ►

about 20 minutes.

00:31:34 ►

And I remember

00:31:35 ►

going off a little

00:31:35 ►

place and they

00:31:36 ►

said, sit here

00:31:37 ►

and they handed

00:31:37 ►

me a pipe and

00:31:38 ►

they held it for

00:31:39 ►

me and it took

00:31:40 ►

good deep puffs

00:31:41 ►

and came out

00:31:42 ►

and I said,

00:31:42 ►

oh, I was

00:31:44 ►

trying to say,

00:31:44 ►

God, just like mushrooms, but I guess just like out. And I said, oh. I was trying to say, gosh, just like mushrooms.

00:31:46 ►

But I got to say, just like mush.

00:31:48 ►

And suddenly it fell back and I was falling through that, like I said, that beautiful, colorful world.

00:31:53 ►

And that cosmic calliope music is the only way I can describe what was playing.

00:31:59 ►

And it was like, I don’t know how long it lasted, but it was just, I kept falling.

00:32:03 ►

It was like that scene in Alice in Wonderland, a cartoon,

00:32:05 ►

where she’s falling down that rabbit hole and things going by.

00:32:08 ►

I’m down there, and it’s just, I’m totally ecstatic.

00:32:12 ►

It was just an incredible, incredible, incredible experience.

00:32:17 ►

And it was cool because I felt, you know, I was with people, knew what they were doing.

00:32:20 ►

I had no fear.

00:32:22 ►

And then if I was going to run into problems of any, that would be the place to do it.

00:32:27 ►

But again, I have my wife there and her being not a participant.

00:32:31 ►

I did miss on a lot of the extracurricular stuff.

00:32:34 ►

But again, I said, you know, I could even conceive of myself coming down,

00:32:39 ►

spending a week here and not doing anything.

00:32:42 ►

Because what was coming across in the classroom was just so valuable and so real.

00:32:48 ►

Right.

00:32:49 ►

And I even hate to call it a classroom.

00:32:51 ►

It was just kind of like people hanging out and talking.

00:32:55 ►

And he got a lot of information.

00:32:59 ►

And I talked to people.

00:33:00 ►

I said, oh, yeah, there’s a guy, Terrence McKim.

00:33:01 ►

I said, yeah.

00:33:02 ►

You knew him?

00:33:04 ►

Yeah, right.

00:33:04 ►

You knew him? I said, well, I wasn, oh yeah, there’s a guy, Terrence McKim. I says, yeah. You knew him? Yeah, right. You knew him? I said,

00:33:05 ►

well, I wasn’t a buddy,

00:33:08 ►

but I’ve had breakfast and lunch with him

00:33:10 ►

a couple of times and talked with him.

00:33:12 ►

And there’s a whole generation

00:33:13 ►

out there, you know. I really miss him.

00:33:15 ►

It’s been, what, 10 years now?

00:33:17 ►

Yeah, it has. He was something. He was like,

00:33:20 ►

he was the man. He was the,

00:33:22 ►

you know, some people try to build

00:33:23 ►

a mature God, you know, and she was that. He was human. Yeah, yeah. He was the man. He was the, you know, some people try to build a mature God, you know, and she was that.

00:33:25 ►

He was human.

00:33:26 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:33:27 ►

He was, and sometimes I think things, I will disagree.

00:33:32 ►

Lorenzo and I disagree with him on his take on crop circles.

00:33:37 ►

But it was just being in a proximity to these people, and it was just God.

00:33:44 ►

Yeah, he was a big draw, and it was interesting because after he died,

00:33:47 ►

we had one more Palenque seminar, and then that was it.

00:33:51 ►

Yeah, I want to go to that, but I had my heart attack a few months before that,

00:33:55 ►

and the doctor said, no, you probably shouldn’t travel.

00:33:59 ►

Actually, I think going probably would have been the best thing for me at the time.

00:34:02 ►

Yeah, right.

00:34:04 ►

Working with the plant medicines.

00:34:06 ►

But Palenque is, there was talk of having like a reunion.

00:34:13 ►

Yeah, people talk about it.

00:34:14 ►

You know, it’s still not, it just would not be the same.

00:34:20 ►

You know, we were all really living a big moment and sort of not really fully realizing it.

00:34:26 ►

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, when you’re living in the

00:34:28 ►

middle of history, you have no sense of it.

00:34:29 ►

You really have very little sense of it and stuff.

00:34:32 ►

Yeah.

00:34:33 ►

Because I remember, the last time I saw

00:34:36 ►

Terrence in New York,

00:34:37 ►

we were talking there and some kids behind me

00:34:39 ►

and I said, oh yeah, you went to Planky.

00:34:42 ►

Oh wow, how was it?

00:34:43 ►

I heard it was totally wild. I said, well, you know, it wasn’t quite says, yeah, I went to Palenque. Oh, wow, how was it? Yeah, yeah. I heard it was totally wild, totally.

00:34:45 ►

I says, well, you know, it wasn’t quite as wild as you would think it was.

00:34:49 ►

It wasn’t just a bunch of people sitting in the jungle taking drugs and doing shit.

00:34:53 ►

I says, it was an incredible, it was a multidisciplinary experience.

00:34:57 ►

Yeah.

00:34:57 ►

Yeah.

00:34:58 ►

You learned.

00:34:58 ►

And it was really good.

00:35:00 ►

But these were the guys that truly believed.

00:35:02 ►

These were the kids that liked to, you know, place people on pedestals and work as gods and stuff.

00:35:08 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:35:09 ►

Do you remember Giorgio Samarini?

00:35:11 ►

Oh, Giorgio, what a sweet guy.

00:35:13 ►

I was talking to him, and I had some questions about mushrooms in Europe.

00:35:20 ►

And he ran back to his space and came back and gave me.

00:35:23 ►

He says, now, you’re going to have to get somebody to translate this in Italian.

00:35:26 ►

But he handed me a stack of papers and information

00:35:29 ►

on the use of mushrooms in ancient cultures in the Mediterranean and stuff.

00:35:36 ►

Palenque was also the first time I went up in an ultralight, too.

00:35:40 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:35:40 ►

There was an old guy that had an ultralight there,

00:35:42 ►

so I was deep into my photography.

00:35:46 ►

Yeah. I’m getting a little space and I take my camera up.

00:35:48 ►

I’m flying that sucker and going over the ruins and coming down out of the clouds.

00:35:53 ►

And suddenly you see the tombs and the pyramids just starting to come up out of the mist.

00:36:00 ►

It was just spectacular.

00:36:03 ►

Slightly off topic, but along the lines, I’m curious

00:36:06 ►

if you’re up for this.

00:36:08 ►

Maybe you’ve

00:36:10 ►

sort of been on both sides of the law.

00:36:12 ►

You’ve really seen both sides.

00:36:14 ►

You’ve been deeply embedded in the system.

00:36:15 ►

I was a juvenile delinquent, too. I forgot to tell you about that

00:36:17 ►

when I was 13. That’s why you and I

00:36:19 ►

bonded so much.

00:36:22 ►

That’s why I understood my parole

00:36:24 ►

is.

00:36:25 ►

Is there any advice you could give for listeners so much because we have that similarity. Yeah, and that’s why I understood my parolees and stuff, you know.

00:36:27 ►

So is there any advice you could give for, you know, listeners,

00:36:30 ►

younger listeners maybe?

00:36:32 ►

You know, like I have my friend,

00:36:33 ►

one of my best friends, he passed away, Eric Hart,

00:36:35 ►

who was a lawyer, talked about

00:36:37 ►

the law and what your rights are and what happens

00:36:39 ►

if you get stopped and all that. I’m not looking necessarily for anything

00:36:41 ►

like that, but is there any advice you might give for people

00:36:44 ►

in terms of dealing with the system? And if

00:36:46 ►

you don’t, it’s okay. Keep a low profile. Yeah. Don’t, don’t get in, don’t get involved

00:36:51 ►

with them in the first place. Right. Um, you know, I have a tendency to talk back. Yeah.

00:36:58 ►

You know, I have problems with authority, you know, unless I know you’ve made your bones and you and you’ve walked the walk

00:37:05 ►

then i’ll i’ll listen up you know but uh if you’re getting pushy because i can tell that

00:37:11 ►

you know my thing is that 90 of the evil in this world is caused by what is known as the fragile

00:37:15 ►

male ego yeah and and i can see it i saw it on my job and i see it in some cops and stuff like that

00:37:22 ►

but i i would say the best thing is just keep away from them. And I remember

00:37:27 ►

what Terrence also said.

00:37:30 ►

We were talking about

00:37:31 ►

Salvia Divinorum when it was first coming out.

00:37:35 ►

And funny about

00:37:36 ►

Salvia, that was Palenque

00:37:37 ►

in, what was it, was it 99?

00:37:41 ►

When he said

00:37:41 ►

by the way, he says, would anybody

00:37:43 ►

like to, how many people smoke salvia?

00:37:46 ►

A bunch of people put their hands up.

00:37:47 ►

How many people want to talk about the experiences?

00:37:49 ►

No one raised their hand.

00:37:50 ►

Interesting.

00:37:51 ►

Yeah, weird.

00:37:52 ►

And I said, boy, this must be some strange shit.

00:37:54 ►

But Terrence used to say, and in reference to the salvia,

00:37:59 ►

he says, please, let’s not blow this.

00:38:01 ►

Let’s not engage in behavior that lands us in emergency rooms.

00:38:05 ►

Good.

00:38:06 ►

So, and I’d say that’s, I can’t give any better advice than that.

00:38:11 ►

Just take your time with, well, when I was 20 and dropping the stuff, I want to listen to this.

00:38:19 ►

I just took, I mean, the first time somebody had me psychedelic, they put, well, they said it was mesclun, but there was no synthetic mesclun at the end.

00:38:27 ►

And just put the tab, purple tab in my hand.

00:38:31 ►

And I didn’t even look at it.

00:38:32 ►

Put it in my hand, just popped it right away.

00:38:34 ►

Not even a second thought.

00:38:36 ►

And that’s how I went about things.

00:38:38 ►

Now that I’m a little bit more experienced, a little bit more measured in my approach.

00:38:42 ►

a little bit more experienced, a little bit more measured in my approach.

00:38:46 ►

And I think that’s a sensible way because if you take your time,

00:38:51 ►

you’re not going to get involved in anything that brings the attention of the medical or the police authorities.

00:38:52 ►

Right.

00:38:55 ►

And cops do not understand this stuff at all.

00:38:56 ►

Right.

00:39:02 ►

When I was still working in the Bronx, when I was in exile in the Bronx my last year on the job. I remember they were busting people for

00:39:07 ►

MDMA and some stuff in the city. They interviewed this deputy inspector in the police department.

00:39:14 ►

Now, I know in San Francisco, every detective is an inspector, but in the NYPD, a deputy

00:39:19 ►

inspector is well above captains, very high-pl. Right. And this guy was talking about, yeah, this X-ray stuff, it’s a combination of LSD and speed.

00:39:32 ►

I said, what?

00:39:34 ►

And this guy’s being quoted in the newspapers as an authority.

00:39:39 ►

I’m saying, oh, that’s absolute bullshit.

00:39:42 ►

But I had to keep from responding to that.

00:39:46 ►

I mean, I remember one time when I talked

00:39:48 ►

to the

00:39:49 ►

personnel people in Albany about

00:39:52 ►

people having,

00:39:54 ►

you know, if you have an alcohol problem,

00:39:56 ►

they’ll get you a rehab. If you have a drug problem,

00:39:58 ►

they fire you. But I thought

00:40:00 ►

they might do a different approach.

00:40:01 ►

And I remember when they were doing the,

00:40:03 ►

Deborah Mesh was doing the Ibogaine treatments and yeah right i went to them and i said

00:40:09 ►

um you know if you have anybody who’s had real big problem with cocaine and stuff there’s a

00:40:15 ►

really interesting new way to treat that uh you know and they looked at me like what the

00:40:22 ►

fuck are you talking about and i realized they have no interest in salvaging people.

00:40:27 ►

They just throw them away.

00:40:29 ►

I remember when they popped one of my guys, I was concentrating.

00:40:32 ►

I said, look, the guy was a great officer.

00:40:34 ►

I mean, come on, we can work with the dude.

00:40:35 ►

But they weren’t.

00:40:36 ►

When it comes to, if it’s alcohol, it’s okay.

00:40:39 ►

But if it’s anything else that’s illegal, that’s it.

00:40:42 ►

They’re done.

00:40:42 ►

They don’t want to know.

00:40:43 ►

They have no interest in helping people.

00:40:46 ►

You know, it’s interesting because what you were just saying about

00:40:50 ►

if you have alcohol, you can get taken care of,

00:40:53 ►

and if it’s drugs, they treat you that way,

00:40:54 ►

because I have a very good friend who got in trouble

00:41:00 ►

with a really small amount of cocaine,

00:41:03 ►

and she was drinking, and she got busted.

00:41:07 ►

Felony, all this bullshit.

00:41:10 ►

And she had to go through rehab.

00:41:12 ►

Yeah.

00:41:12 ►

And this was just within the past couple,

00:41:15 ►

two, three years.

00:41:16 ►

And they showed her those pictures

00:41:17 ►

of holes in your brain from ecstasy.

00:41:22 ►

Oh, that’s awesome.

00:41:22 ►

And they told her this is the truth

00:41:23 ►

and she really believed it

00:41:24 ►

and I got into a discussion with her and she really believed in it and i got into

00:41:25 ►

this discussion with her and so i finally went online and i found the where it was exposed and

00:41:29 ►

i said it to her and she’s like oh my god oh it’s the whole thing about rickard exactly that’s who

00:41:34 ►

was on it yeah yeah that was amazing where they were actually dosing the monkeys with

00:41:38 ►

methamphetamine methamphetamine yeah yeah for those of you who don’t know, this government shill, Rickhart, R-I-C-H-A-U-R-T-E, I think, doctor, did this study.

00:41:49 ►

And he said that ecstasy puts holes in your brains.

00:41:52 ►

And they published these bullshit pictures.

00:41:55 ►

It could ruin you for life on one dose.

00:41:58 ►

One dose.

00:41:59 ►

And then somebody did some digging and found out that he used methamphetamine in the study instead of MDMA.

00:42:04 ►

And the thing is, he wasn’t even aware that he was using the wrong drug.

00:42:07 ►

Things were mislabeled.

00:42:08 ►

So he says.

00:42:10 ►

Wow.

00:42:11 ►

That throws some conspiracy theories.

00:42:13 ►

Nah.

00:42:14 ►

But yeah, I don’t know.

00:42:15 ►

He said that, but I was under the impression that stuff was mislabeled,

00:42:19 ►

and they were just pumping these monkeys with methamphetamine.

00:42:20 ►

He got caught.

00:42:21 ►

Because, you know, he got caught.

00:42:23 ►

I know our friend Dr. Tom said this man is finished in the scientific community.

00:42:29 ►

Exactly.

00:42:29 ►

But you want to know something?

00:42:30 ►

A couple of years ago in the back of the Village Voice, there was a search for MDMA users.

00:42:38 ►

Right.

00:42:39 ►

And he was doing research again.

00:42:41 ►

Exactly.

00:42:41 ►

So the government has him because he’s the man.

00:42:43 ►

That’s exactly right.

00:42:44 ►

The government has him. He’s doing more research on MD again. Exactly. So the government has him because he’s the man. That’s exactly right. The government has him.

00:42:45 ►

He’s doing more research on MDMA.

00:42:47 ►

Right.

00:42:47 ►

And I mean,

00:42:48 ►

the man has already just shown

00:42:50 ►

that he’s a…

00:42:51 ►

He’s a liar.

00:42:52 ►

And what scientist?

00:42:53 ►

A scientist is supposed to be

00:42:54 ►

exacting in what he does.

00:42:56 ►

Yeah.

00:42:56 ►

Can you imagine

00:42:57 ►

being a scientist?

00:42:58 ►

Yeah, I’d say,

00:42:58 ►

oh, gee, you know,

00:43:00 ►

I’m sorry,

00:43:01 ►

instead of giving you amino acids,

00:43:03 ►

I gave you hydrochloric acid.

00:43:04 ►

Right? Duh. You know, I feel for those poor of giving you amino acids, I gave you hydrochloric acid, right?

00:43:05 ►

Duh.

00:43:06 ►

I feel for those poor monkeys too, man.

00:43:08 ►

Yeah?

00:43:09 ►

Because I’ve never done methamphetamine, but I’ve done ops and stuff.

00:43:14 ►

I’ve done it.

00:43:14 ►

I know that stuff.

00:43:15 ►

It’s not good.

00:43:16 ►

No, no, no.

00:43:18 ►

MDMA is much.

00:43:19 ►

Yeah.

00:43:19 ►

MDMA, I can’t do it anymore because of my heart condition.

00:43:22 ►

Yeah.

00:43:23 ►

MDMA.

00:43:25 ►

MDMA with a little bit of LSD, a little candy flip.

00:43:27 ►

What a great way to spend the day.

00:43:29 ►

Yeah.

00:43:31 ►

Yeah.

00:43:32 ►

It’s a good thing.

00:43:34 ►

So, also, you know, the interesting thing about, I mean, you’re talking about New York.

00:43:39 ►

But this is, this podcast is international.

00:43:43 ►

Yeah.

00:43:43 ►

You know, we’ve got brothers all over the planet.

00:43:45 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:43:45 ►

We’re tuning in.

00:43:47 ►

Maybe eventually we’ll reach the tipping point.

00:43:50 ►

Yeah.

00:43:50 ►

Reach a critical mass.

00:43:52 ►

It would be really nice.

00:43:53 ►

Yeah.

00:43:53 ►

It would be really nice to change things around.

00:43:56 ►

I remember Huxley’s book, Island.

00:43:58 ►

Right.

00:43:59 ►

I love the concept.

00:44:00 ►

It was a society that found the different types and try to channel everybody naturally and using, you know, using the Soma and stuff to achieve that experience and find a way you’re at.

00:44:12 ►

And then your society helping you by putting you into a kind of a role where your natural inclinations can be used for positive, positive needs.

00:44:21 ►

Yep.

00:44:22 ►

Yep.

00:44:22 ►

Set a guy out there to chop trees instead of go beat people up.

00:44:26 ►

Yeah, exactly.

00:44:28 ►

And that’s the thing, for those of you, if you have not heard it,

00:44:31 ►

I really strongly

00:44:32 ►

recommend listening to the

00:44:34 ►

Jim Fadiman podcast we recently

00:44:36 ►

did that I mentioned that

00:44:38 ►

Bill had also had some comments on

00:44:40 ►

because Jim’s been researching

00:44:42 ►

for years and years and years and really

00:44:44 ►

doing it with the right way and the right attitude oh yeah you know uh with integrity and you know in

00:44:49 ►

that book i always get that sense of the man is full of compassion yep i got that sense in reading

00:44:56 ►

that book yeah uh he’s an interesting guy too i heard him speak finally nice guy yeah you know

00:45:02 ►

nice guy you can sit have a couple of beers with this dude at the bar.

00:45:05 ►

Oh yeah,

00:45:05 ►

did you know how we met?

00:45:07 ►

No.

00:45:08 ►

I was teaching

00:45:09 ►

a writing workshop

00:45:10 ►

at the Santa Barbara

00:45:11 ►

Writers Conference

00:45:11 ►

and he came

00:45:13 ►

and I didn’t know who he was

00:45:13 ►

and he came as a student

00:45:15 ►

and he’s like,

00:45:17 ►

as far as I’m concerned,

00:45:18 ►

he sits at the left hand of God,

00:45:19 ►

right?

00:45:19 ►

Yeah.

00:45:19 ►

And he came in

00:45:20 ►

and he was a good writer.

00:45:21 ►

I might have even given him

00:45:22 ►

an award

00:45:22 ►

and he was with me

00:45:23 ►

for three or four days

00:45:24 ►

every day, you know, doing his stuff. He was working on a novel and he was a good writer. I might have even given him an award. And he was with me for three or four days every day, you know, doing his stuff.

00:45:26 ►

He was working on a novel.

00:45:28 ►

And he had some great short stories.

00:45:30 ►

And then he came up and he gave me his book, The Other Side of Hate.

00:45:35 ►

And I gave him Land Without Evil.

00:45:37 ►

And then we started talking.

00:45:39 ►

And I finally looked at him and I said, you’re one of us, aren’t you?

00:45:43 ►

And he’s like, yeah.

00:45:44 ►

And then when I found out who he really was, I was like, oh my God. So, uh, he’s a man that’s been living

00:45:49 ►

under the wire too. Cause you know, until a few years ago, I’d never heard of him. Right.

00:45:53 ►

I may have seen his name in a reference somewhere, but I’d never heard of him. He’s been a real

00:45:58 ►

central figure. And he’s really, uh, I think his book is really important. I mean, besides

00:46:04 ►

P. Colin T. Carl, that’s one book I’m, I’m, I’m going to keep his book is really important. I mean, besides P. Colin Teacall,

00:46:05 ►

that’s one book.

00:46:06 ►

I’m going to keep his book there

00:46:08 ►

because it’s just a wonderful,

00:46:10 ►

it’s not only a history of the research

00:46:14 ►

and a jumping off point to go to new spaces

00:46:17 ►

and try the micro-dosing and all that,

00:46:21 ►

but the guiding and taking care of people and everything.

00:46:26 ►

In other words, if you did your psychedelic exploration and use according to his book,

00:46:32 ►

his way, you’re not going to come in contact with the cops.

00:46:37 ►

You’re not going to wind up in the emergency room or like that.

00:46:40 ►

And it’s going to become more than just through it.

00:46:42 ►

It’s going to be what enriches your life and sets you apart from the rest of the people that don’t.

00:46:50 ►

And I’m not talking from a position of arrogance, but I am so glad I turned on.

00:46:55 ►

Amen, brother.

00:46:55 ►

I am so glad, man.

00:46:57 ►

Because otherwise this could be a kind of grim, a grim life.

00:47:01 ►

Yeah.

00:47:01 ►

Grim life.

00:47:02 ►

Some people, to forget how grim it can be, get lost in a rat race and consume themselves.

00:47:11 ►

That’s a great thing.

00:47:13 ►

It’s turning on.

00:47:14 ►

It was, God, it was.

00:47:16 ►

I still remember that day.

00:47:18 ►

I was in San Antonio and they handed me that pill.

00:47:21 ►

Everybody wanted to hang out, watch the walls breathe.

00:47:24 ►

And I said, no.

00:47:25 ►

It was a beautiful spring afternoon.

00:47:27 ►

I went outside, walked among the oleander, put on my bathing suit.

00:47:31 ►

I went swimming, dove off a diving board, hired a kite, went under the water.

00:47:37 ►

And my thing used to be to swim underwater from one end of the pool to the other.

00:47:40 ►

I dove under, and I’m going, and I just took my time.

00:47:44 ►

At the end of the pool, I didn’t want to come up

00:47:46 ►

out, being in a

00:47:47 ►

maybe it was like being in the amniotic fluid

00:47:49 ►

I don’t know what, but I felt completely

00:47:51 ►

at home and I felt I could swim underwater for a couple

00:47:54 ►

more hours and I said, no, you better come up

00:47:56 ►

to the surface, beautiful

00:47:57 ►

experience, I still remember that afternoon

00:47:59 ►

that just

00:48:00 ►

I mean, I had no ego dissolution

00:48:03 ►

it was probably only about 100 mics equivalent, but it was just enough to say wow, I mean, I had no ego dissolution. It was probably only about 100 mics equivalent.

00:48:06 ►

Yeah.

00:48:06 ►

But it was just enough to say, wow, I looked at the world.

00:48:09 ►

It was like I saw the world anew for the first time.

00:48:12 ►

Yeah.

00:48:12 ►

You know?

00:48:13 ►

The veil was lifted.

00:48:17 ►

And everything was just fucking beautiful.

00:48:21 ►

Yeah.

00:48:21 ►

And that’s when I realized the world was a perfect place.

00:48:24 ►

There you go. The world is a perfect beautiful. Yeah. And that’s when I realized the world was a perfect place. There you go.

00:48:25 ►

The world is a perfect place.

00:48:28 ►

Wow.

00:48:29 ►

So you’ve done a lot of work.

00:48:32 ►

I mean, in your formal work as a PO, you dealt with a lot of really tough, dark, messed up energy.

00:48:42 ►

Those are the people I work for.

00:48:43 ►

Right, right.

00:48:45 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:48:47 ►

But you took on a lot of stuff.

00:48:47 ►

Yeah.

00:48:49 ►

And now through the years,

00:48:50 ►

and especially now,

00:48:52 ►

particularly with ayahuasca,

00:48:53 ►

you’re going back and you’re healing those wounds

00:48:54 ►

and you’re getting rid of

00:48:55 ►

the baggage that you’ve been carrying.

00:48:57 ►

Oh, it’s a bitch.

00:48:58 ►

Because I feel like 12 years ago,

00:49:01 ►

I was on the run of betrayal

00:49:03 ►

and injustice,

00:49:06 ►

and it’s never going to be righted. That’s really hard to do.

00:49:08 ►

It’s never going to be right.

00:49:10 ►

And it’s been like

00:49:12 ►

bleeding a slow death. That wound

00:49:14 ►

hasn’t healed, and that’s what I’m trying to do.

00:49:16 ►

Because, hey, it’s a motherfucker.

00:49:18 ►

But that’s why I don’t mind spending a lot of time

00:49:20 ►

on my hands and knees, you know,

00:49:21 ►

driving.

00:49:23 ►

Because I’m working that stuff out. I mean, driving. Yeah. I can witness that.

00:49:25 ►

Because I’m working that stuff out.

00:49:26 ►

I mean, if that’s what I’ve got to do to get rid of 30 years of all this negative energy

00:49:31 ►

coming in.

00:49:32 ►

And I love working the dark side of the street.

00:49:34 ►

I’m attracted to the dark.

00:49:36 ►

Yeah.

00:49:36 ►

To me, I like the twilight world.

00:49:38 ►

My favorite time of day is just like an hour before sundown to an hour after.

00:49:43 ►

Yeah.

00:49:43 ►

That’s when I feel the most power coming on.

00:49:46 ►

And it’s like the border between night and day and the borderlands.

00:49:50 ►

I mean, until I just kind of ruined my career, I said, you know, when I retire from parole,

00:49:57 ►

I should look up Nathan Adelman and those people because I thought I could be a bridge between.

00:50:02 ►

because I thought I could be a bridge between,

00:50:05 ►

this is an idealistic acid bullshit,

00:50:08 ►

that I would try to work to be a bridge between the world and the street.

00:50:10 ►

Because it’s also in my chart and all my readings

00:50:13 ►

that I can work in many different levels up and down.

00:50:17 ►

I can mix with a lot of different types of people.

00:50:20 ►

And I like to bring things together.

00:50:23 ►

And I thought I would like to work

00:50:24 ►

to educate law enforcement people

00:50:28 ►

what this stuff is really about,

00:50:30 ►

and try to get some communication

00:50:33 ►

so maybe we can work out some kind of an accommodation

00:50:35 ►

and change some of those laws.

00:50:39 ►

But before you change the laws, you’ve really got to change the attitude.

00:50:42 ►

I remember standing in the South Bronx one time,

00:50:51 ►

just after a really depressing episode with a person about their life and stuff,

00:50:53 ►

and I’m standing there and looking at all this despair,

00:50:56 ►

because the air was heavy with despair,

00:50:59 ►

and people had just given up.

00:51:02 ►

And I stood there and I just broke into tears.

00:51:04 ►

I must have been quite a sight. I had my vest on and my badge and my gun.

00:51:06 ►

And I’m just in tears because I realized, you know, unless people change,

00:51:09 ►

unless everybody gets on board, they can do all the laws they want

00:51:13 ►

and nothing’s going to change.

00:51:15 ►

It’s going to be shit.

00:51:17 ►

And, again, that’s what I call the curse of acid.

00:51:19 ►

You see the big picture.

00:51:21 ►

You understand how it can be resolved.

00:51:23 ►

I don’t think many people have the will to get there. But I was, you know,

00:51:26 ►

I was going to try to

00:51:26 ►

mend it. Now, I try to stay

00:51:30 ►

away from cops. You know, I never

00:51:32 ►

hung out with cops and cop bars and

00:51:34 ►

stuff like that. Right. And

00:51:35 ►

I don’t watch cop movies and none of that

00:51:38 ►

bullshit. I stay as far away

00:51:40 ►

as I can from that.

00:51:42 ►

And who needs it, right?

00:51:44 ►

Just try to lead a righteous life.

00:51:46 ►

And there are some good people there.

00:51:48 ►

Some people you can reach,

00:51:49 ►

but again, there’s not enough of them.

00:51:52 ►

And they’re not going to come out of the closet

00:51:53 ►

because they lose real heavy.

00:51:55 ►

I’m retired now.

00:51:56 ►

I’m retired now.

00:51:57 ►

So you can speak more freely.

00:51:58 ►

They could try to do things

00:52:02 ►

and threaten me with things,

00:52:03 ►

but I’m at the point where I’m going,

00:52:05 ►

I’m 65, man, how many more years?

00:52:07 ►

I’ve got a middle heart and all that shit.

00:52:09 ►

So, fuck it.

00:52:11 ►

So we play it by our own will.

00:52:12 ►

So I never, yeah, I’m being assimilated by the board.

00:52:16 ►

I’d really like to be able to figure out the formula,

00:52:19 ►

just how much of my part is artificial.

00:52:20 ►

I can say, I’m only 98% human.

00:52:25 ►

Slightly

00:52:26 ►

off subject with Palenque, but you’ve also done

00:52:28 ►

a lot of work with Alex Gray?

00:52:31 ►

Well, yeah.

00:52:32 ►

You know, when I

00:52:33 ►

went down to

00:52:35 ►

oh, what the hell is the name of it?

00:52:39 ►

There was a conference

00:52:41 ►

down in Oaxaca.

00:52:43 ►

Yeah.

00:52:45 ►

Oh, what the hell do they call that?

00:52:46 ►

I’ll think of it.

00:52:47 ►

I didn’t go.

00:52:48 ►

I know the one you mean.

00:52:49 ►

Yeah, John Hanna.

00:52:50 ►

John Hanna.

00:52:51 ►

Yeah, the great thing, one of the last.

00:52:53 ►

And down there, I was talking to my friend,

00:52:59 ►

and I said, you know, in California,

00:53:04 ►

you seem to have places where you can go where you meet all.

00:53:06 ►

There doesn’t seem to be anything like that in New York that I was aware of a place.

00:53:11 ►

Right.

00:53:11 ►

And then Alex and Allison Gray get up and do their spiel.

00:53:16 ►

And they talk about they’re opening a chapel of sacred mirrors, 27th Street and 10th Avenue.

00:53:23 ►

And I was freaked out.

00:53:26 ►

Because that’s like six, seven blocks from where I live.

00:53:29 ►

Yeah.

00:53:30 ►

And so I got back to New York.

00:53:34 ►

First thing I did,

00:53:35 ►

I went to their…

00:53:36 ►

the party they threw,

00:53:39 ►

the Deities and Demons Masquerade party on Halloween.

00:53:43 ►

Uh-huh.

00:53:43 ►

I put on…

00:53:44 ►

I got my tuxedo out, got a tuxedo and stuff and some flashing lights on and my sneakers,

00:53:49 ►

and I went and I started taking pictures.

00:53:51 ►

Of course, a couple of people there knew who I was, you know,

00:53:53 ►

until a guy came up and smelled the cannabis on my breath.

00:53:56 ►

He said, okay, he’s okay.

00:53:57 ►

I started hanging out there, and I’ve been doing a lot of photography, outdoors mostly and stuff.

00:54:03 ►

But I started taking pictures indoors,

00:54:06 ►

pictures of Alex painting, pictures of doing things.

00:54:10 ►

And I started handing him discs and stuff to do.

00:54:13 ►

And eventually I worked into a way where I was

00:54:15 ►

kind of like a house photographer in a way.

00:54:20 ►

Any time there was a big event there,

00:54:22 ►

I was constantly taking pictures.

00:54:24 ►

And I haven’t done that in a couple of years.

00:54:27 ►

Up until then, I probably had taken more pictures

00:54:29 ►

of Alex Gray-Penny than anybody else

00:54:30 ►

on the face of the earth.

00:54:32 ►

Yeah.

00:54:32 ►

Because I’d just go in with that great digital camera

00:54:34 ►

and just do a picture of it.

00:54:35 ►

Because we used to have these great painting parties.

00:54:37 ►

Yeah.

00:54:39 ►

Where they had a DJ playing,

00:54:41 ►

and he’d have an easel doing a painting,

00:54:43 ►

and other of us would be be doing things and things going

00:54:45 ►

on in other rooms snake charmers and a chill out room and the whole community we get together we

00:54:51 ►

go to four or five o’clock in the morning and stuff and uh it was really cool working with him

00:54:56 ►

because alex was a alex is a really neat man an incredibly talented guy a really

00:55:06 ►

beautiful dude

00:55:07 ►

and

00:55:09 ►

I really connected

00:55:12 ►

I traveled with them

00:55:14 ►

to Damanhur when they went

00:55:16 ►

oh yeah I heard a lot about that place

00:55:17 ►

yeah I went to Damanhur with them for a week

00:55:20 ►

and

00:55:21 ►

and then

00:55:23 ►

Basel, Switzerland

00:55:24 ►

for the thing.

00:55:27 ►

In fact, Alex brought me up to the room,

00:55:29 ►

and he showed me in his portrait of Albert

00:55:32 ►

that Albert had taken a brush and signed,

00:55:36 ►

and didn’t just sign the back of the canvas,

00:55:40 ►

but drew in the chemical, organic chemical formula for LSD.

00:55:44 ►

Oh, nice.

00:55:45 ►

On the back.

00:55:46 ►

And Alex is there.

00:55:47 ►

He’s really talking like a little kid, like he got Pee Wee Reese’s autograph.

00:55:53 ►

He was just so pleased.

00:55:56 ►

And I remember Alex would be signing posters.

00:55:58 ►

He’ll sign anything for everybody.

00:56:01 ►

And Allison’s going, Alex, we’ve got to go to lunch.

00:56:04 ►

And Alex says, yeah, yeah, wait, let me do it.

00:56:06 ►

And he would just talk to people.

00:56:08 ►

He wouldn’t just say, hi, what’s your name?

00:56:09 ►

He would sit and talk. People would talk.

00:56:11 ►

He was just very people-oriented.

00:56:14 ►

I love taking pictures of him

00:56:15 ►

and stuff in that chapel.

00:56:17 ►

They’ve moved upriver. Once they moved upriver,

00:56:20 ►

I kind of look because I just, I don’t have a car.

00:56:23 ►

I’m a city guy.

00:56:24 ►

I’ve got a bicycle.

00:56:27 ►

I’ve gotten up there once in a while.

00:56:29 ►

But since the stuff with my hip and all that, I just can’t do it.

00:56:32 ►

I haven’t done any photography work in a couple of years.

00:56:35 ►

But my time with them was really good.

00:56:40 ►

It was really good.

00:56:41 ►

Nice people.

00:56:42 ►

Nice.

00:56:43 ►

Well, we’ve been wrapping here for about an hour.

00:56:46 ►

So, we’re going to wind it down

00:56:48 ►

here, but is there any sort of

00:56:50 ►

final words of wisdom or pieces of advice

00:56:52 ►

or things you want to say at all?

00:56:54 ►

I should have thought about it

00:56:56 ►

at the time.

00:56:58 ►

Keep the faith, babe.

00:57:01 ►

Well, thank you.

00:57:04 ►

We kind of meandered off from Polanke. We’re talking about psychedelics. I right. Well, thank you. Thank you for taking the time. We kind of handed off from Polanke, but, you know.

00:57:06 ►

Well, we’re talking about psychedelics, and we’re talking about experiences.

00:57:08 ►

I have a tendency to do that.

00:57:09 ►

I’ll go from one thing to another, and eventually I come back to that.

00:57:13 ►

Well, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us,

00:57:15 ►

and I think a lot of what you said has value for the listeners.

00:57:18 ►

Well, I hope everybody gets something out of this.

00:57:19 ►

Through the experience.

00:57:21 ►

So this is Mateo and Wild

00:57:26 ►

Bill signing off from the

00:57:28 ►

Psychedelic Salon, and Lorenzo will

00:57:29 ►

probably add in some notes, and

00:57:31 ►

anything we missed,

00:57:33 ►

he’ll put in. Yeah, Lorenzo should be here.

00:57:35 ►

Yeah, he was supposed to be here. Punked out.

00:57:38 ►

But, you know, he’s that type of guy anyway.

00:57:40 ►

Yeah, we’ll get even with him, right?

00:57:41 ►

We’ll fix his wagon.

00:57:43 ►

Alright, thank you, and keep the faith.

00:57:47 ►

That’s the final word from Wild Bill.

00:57:49 ►

All right, this is Mattel signing off.

00:57:55 ►

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon,

00:57:57 ►

where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.

00:58:03 ►

Now, if you’ll think back to several podcasts ago, we heard, I think it was

00:58:08 ►

Terence McKenna say that while there are old psychonauts and there are bold psychonauts,

00:58:14 ►

there are no old bold psychonauts. And I think that even though we just heard some great stories

00:58:21 ►

about a few wild psychedelic experiences that both Mateo and Wild

00:58:26 ►

Bill will tell you that the reason they are still here is that neither one of them ever pushed the

00:58:31 ►

limits into the extremely bold arena, although there were a few times when they could probably

00:58:37 ►

see it from where they were working. You see, it’s not about what or how much or how often, or even if you ever do use our sacred medicines to explore the deeper realms of consciousness.

00:58:50 ►

It’s all about what you learn while you’re in that space,

00:58:52 ►

and most importantly, what you bring back and use to enrich your life.

00:58:58 ►

I don’t think that our heroes are really the out-of-control people

00:59:02 ►

who combine several substances and then take big doses every weekend.

00:59:06 ►

No, in my opinion, the truly heroic work is what is done in the default world

00:59:12 ►

during the days and weeks that follow a sensible psychedelic journey.

00:59:17 ►

Now, as we just heard, both Bill and Mateo thought, and I agree with them,

00:59:22 ►

that the really important part of conferences,

00:59:25 ►

like the ones in Palenque, come not from the formal lectures as much as from the casual

00:59:30 ►

interactions with the speakers at the conference, and even more importantly, the conversations

00:59:36 ►

and the friendships that are made with the other participants.

00:59:39 ►

Which is why I’m really looking forward so much to the Esalen workshop that Bruce

00:59:44 ►

Dahmer and I will be leading this June 15th through the 17th.

00:59:48 ►

As you know, the setting at Esalen is as conductive to building these kinds of relationships

00:59:53 ►

between all of the participants as was Plenke, maybe even more so.

00:59:59 ►

And the truth is that I’m looking more forward to hearing what some of our participants will have to say

01:00:04 ►

than I am to my own talks, which is natural, of course, because I already know what I’m going to say.

01:00:11 ►

And I guess I should mention that there’s some really interesting people who have already signed up.

01:00:17 ►

For example, Ken Adams will be there with a recent cut of his new video about the work of Terence McKenna.

01:00:23 ►

And also John Hanna is going to attend.

01:00:25 ►

And as you know, John not only produced all of the Mind States conferences,

01:00:30 ►

in many other ways, he’s also one of the key members

01:00:33 ►

of the worldwide psychedelic community.

01:00:36 ►

And I’m sure that John will have a lot to add to our weekend workshop.

01:00:40 ►

Plus, I’m excited to announce that Diana Slattery will also be there.

01:00:50 ►

As you may remember, many of the Terrence McKenna talks that I played here in the salon came from Diana who is perhaps the very first formal scholar to have deeply investigated McKenna’s work

01:00:56 ►

so be sure to bring your unanswered Terrence McKenna questions if you plan on attending yourself

01:01:02 ►

I think in an earlier podcast it was

01:01:05 ►

that I mentioned the fact that we’d been allocated 24 spots for participants in this workshop,

01:01:11 ►

but already we have 23 people registered, and so the good folks at Esalen have given us a somewhat

01:01:17 ►

larger space, and now there is room for 30 people, which means that there are still seven spots left

01:01:23 ►

in the event that you can make it. And I’ll put a link to that event in the program notes for this podcast, which as you know,

01:01:31 ►

you can get to via psychedelicsalon.us. But one last point about the workshop that I should make

01:01:37 ►

is that it will be different from the Palenque conferences in one significant way, and that is that unlike the conferences that are held

01:01:47 ►

outside of the United States, this one will most definitely not have any kind of participatory

01:01:53 ►

experiences included. You see, here in the United Police States of America, I’m afraid that we can

01:01:59 ►

only talk about these sacred medicines, but we’ve got to go elsewhere for the actual experiences.

01:02:04 ►

these sacred medicines, but we’ve got to go elsewhere for the actual experiences.

01:02:11 ►

So if you happen to be one of the DEA agents who are monitoring these podcasts, you can save your time and some of the taxpayers’ money and skip this workshop because nothing

01:02:15 ►

illegal is going to take place or be discussed there.

01:02:19 ►

Plus, we’re going to be recording all of the talks in both audio and video formats so that

01:02:23 ►

everyone who wasn’t able to attend will also be able to hear and see it anyway. But getting back to the conversation that

01:02:31 ►

we just listened to, did you pick up on the fact that both of these very experienced and long-time

01:02:37 ►

psychonauts took a break of 10 or 15 years between their early youthful fun-loving experimentation

01:02:44 ►

with these substances

01:02:45 ►

and their more mature spiritual investigations with these materials.

01:02:50 ►

You may be surprised at how normal this is.

01:02:53 ►

Quite often I hear from our fellow salonners who experimented during their college days

01:02:58 ►

and then set them aside for a long spell before once again looking into this field.

01:03:03 ►

And if you stop and think about the fact that tens of millions of young people turned on in the 60s,

01:03:10 ►

well, what if they all come back to the tribe today?

01:03:14 ►

If that happened, I think we could probably solve most of the major problems of the world in short order.

01:03:21 ►

Or at the least, we could have one hell of a party.

01:03:24 ►

or at the least we could have one hell of a party.

01:03:31 ►

Well, there are a lot of other Palenque stories, as I like to think of them,

01:03:36 ►

and I’d like to tell them, although some of those stories can only be told in private.

01:03:41 ►

You know, if you think about it, there must have been well over a thousand people who attended those conferences,

01:03:46 ►

and the alumni, when we meet one another, first often ask, what week did you attend? You see, the actual conference lasted just one week,

01:03:52 ►

but they always did two of them back to back. So you were either a first weeker or a second

01:03:58 ►

weeker. And there were about 100 people in each sold out week. So of course, there were

01:04:04 ►

a lot of people who came more than once,

01:04:06 ►

and, in fact, at times it seemed more like an annual family reunion.

01:04:11 ►

So I guess maybe my estimate of 1,000 may be a little high.

01:04:15 ►

But those 1,000 or so people came from dozens of countries

01:04:19 ►

and from every background imaginable.

01:04:21 ►

You know, there were students who were bumming around the world,

01:04:24 ►

serious students of chemistry and anthropology, people who held very significant and very public

01:04:31 ►

positions in both society and government. There were retired people and then guys like I was at

01:04:37 ►

the time, just another wage slave stuck in the belly of the corporate beast and wondering what the heck I was doing with my life.

01:04:52 ►

And for most of us, those days in Palenque were a transformative and life-changing experience,

01:04:57 ►

one without which you and I wouldn’t be together here in cyberdelic space right now.

01:05:03 ►

But as much as I’d like to continue talking about those Palenque conferences,

01:05:08 ►

I’ve got to move on right now because there’s one more thing I’d like to play for you today.

01:05:12 ►

However, first I have two publications that I want to tell you about,

01:05:17 ►

and they more or less come from completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

01:05:23 ►

The first is a book that, quite frankly, is for the most part way over my head,

01:05:27 ►

simply because I’ve never studied much about the subject matter.

01:05:32 ►

The title of the book is A Basic Theory of Neuropsychoanalysis,

01:05:38 ►

and it was written by W.M. Bernstein, who also happens to be one of us, a fellow Solaner.

01:05:42 ►

I first met William at Burning Man a few years ago, and since then he’s been hard at work on, among other things, this scholarly book.

01:05:48 ►

And the reason I want to point it out to everyone here in the salon, and not just send notice of it to the psychedelic researchers who I know are among us,

01:05:56 ►

is that it not only reaches into the deep world of psychoanalysis, it also includes some discussion about the role of psychedelics.

01:06:04 ►

of psychoanalysis, it also includes some discussion about the role of psychedelics.

01:06:11 ►

And while psychedelics aren’t the primary focus of the work, what I like about it is how matter-of-factly William has worked their discussion into his book without making a huge deal about it. And hopefully

01:06:17 ►

many more scholars in the years ahead will also be willing to write about our sacred medicines

01:06:23 ►

so matter-of-factly.

01:06:29 ►

Now on the other end of the scale, which doesn’t mean it’s any less intellectual,

01:06:33 ►

comes a magazine titled Thought Nachos.

01:06:37 ►

And yes, it is all about psychedelic substances.

01:06:43 ►

And due to the high quality and the style of the art, I could almost call it a zine, but the overall quality seems to me to

01:06:45 ►

be way at the high end of the zine community and more of what my parents would have called a

01:06:50 ►

magazine, a rather far out magazine of course. As I understand it, their print run is pretty small,

01:06:58 ►

which means that if this publication does catch hold for the long run, these first few issues

01:07:02 ►

are going to become valuable collector’s items. However, one of the reasons I’m giving them a plug here

01:07:07 ►

in the salon is that they also give away a huge number of the digital versions

01:07:11 ►

online. And just to give you a little idea of the content

01:07:15 ►

of this interesting little magazine, here are the titles of

01:07:19 ►

a few of the articles in the first two issues. Christmas and the Mushroom

01:07:24 ►

The Angry Firebelly of Quetzalcoatl,

01:07:28 ►

Self-Portraits While Possessed,

01:07:30 ►

and Jesus Was My Gateway Drug.

01:07:34 ►

And again, I want to mention the artwork is really exceptional.

01:07:37 ►

And did I mention the fact that this is also the creation

01:07:40 ►

of some of our fellow salonners?

01:07:43 ►

And I’ll put a link to their Scribd, S-C-R-I-B-D.com

01:07:47 ►

page in the program notes for today’s podcast, which as you know, you can get to via psychedelicsalon.us,

01:07:54 ►

which I’m also happy to announce is somewhat back in operation. Now, if you think back about a year

01:08:01 ►

ago, you may remember that Bruce Dahmer and I introduced the idea of Bruce and the ghost of Terrence McKenna

01:08:07 ►

conducting a so-called global trialogue with you or one of our other fellow salonners.

01:08:14 ►

The idea was to send Bruce either an email question or record your question in MP3 format

01:08:20 ►

and send it to him via the webpage that you’re going to hear him mention in just a moment.

01:08:26 ►

But after introducing the concept and receiving several questions, Bruce’s schedule really

01:08:32 ►

got filled, and he was on trips to Pakistan, India, China, the UK, Ireland, and several

01:08:39 ►

other spots in Europe, not to mention doing work on both coasts of the U.S.

01:08:43 ►

In other words, Bruce has been busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.

01:08:50 ►

Oh gosh, I’m sorry, Bruce.

01:08:51 ►

I didn’t mean to make light of your incredible work schedule.

01:08:54 ►

It’s just that my mouth sometimes keeps going long after my brain tells it to stop.

01:09:00 ►

But getting back to the point, although Bruce’s schedule hasn’t actually lightened up very much,

01:09:06 ►

nonetheless, he has been able to take the time to prepare the very first of our global trialogues,

01:09:12 ►

which we hope in some small way will help to bring our community closer together

01:09:17 ►

by sharing our questions and hopefully even our lovely voices as well.

01:09:22 ►

You know, we’re all in this together, so let’s find out what some of the more pressing things are

01:09:28 ►

on the minds of our fellow slaughters.

01:09:32 ►

And the first question that Bruce will address in this new segment

01:09:35 ►

comes from Chris in Australia.

01:09:38 ►

And I’d tell you the name of the town he lives in

01:09:40 ►

if I could even come close to pronouncing it.

01:09:44 ►

You Aussies sure have some

01:09:46 ►

tongue-twisting words down there. Anyway, after first telling Bruce a little about himself,

01:09:52 ►

here’s the question that Chris sent in. I listened with great interest to your lecture at the October

01:09:58 ►

Gallery and was particularly interested in your ideas about, and definition of, ego,

01:10:05 ►

as well as your ideas about ego death,

01:10:08 ►

and the hope that this may offer our species if a sufficient number of us have undergone it

01:10:14 ►

when climactic cataclysm and or ecosystem collapse occurs.

01:10:19 ►

I would very much like to explore these concepts and ideas further,

01:10:22 ►

particularly within the context of the altered

01:10:25 ►

mind states that the sacred psychedelic medicines can induce. However, unlike many of the psychedelic

01:10:31 ►

torchbearers, I am predisposed against long periods on the computer. I know how to use them,

01:10:37 ►

but prefer not to for a range of reasons. So reading extended and sophisticated online blogs,

01:10:43 ►

for example, is not something that

01:10:45 ►

floats my boat.

01:10:47 ►

I was, therefore, hoping you might be able to point me in the direction of some real,

01:10:52 ►

bound paper, books that will at least get me started.

01:10:56 ►

I won’t anticipate a response, as I know that you’re an extremely busy person, but if you

01:11:00 ►

can manage to send me the titles of a small number of key texts, I would be exceedingly grateful.

01:11:06 ►

I would find my way from there.

01:11:08 ►

Again, thank you so much for your generosity and for flying the flag.

01:11:13 ►

Blessings, Chris.

01:11:15 ►

And here is Bruce’s reply.

01:11:20 ►

Chris, thank you so much for getting in touch.

01:11:23 ►

Lorenzo and I both very much appreciate this kind of feedback from listeners.

01:11:28 ►

As for reading on ego, I have to tell you that Eckhart Tolle really nailed it.

01:11:34 ►

This might have come across a bit in my October gallery talk in London a couple of years ago.

01:11:39 ►

I would recommend his books and also his audio, his own voice on the matter.

01:11:44 ►

I would recommend his books and also his audio, his own voice on the matter.

01:11:50 ►

I can also say that teachings of Guruji yogis on the loss of mind and ego through body and breathing practices has recently become a major part

01:11:54 ►

of the reworking of my daily life.

01:11:58 ►

Psychedelics can play a role in there too for some,

01:12:02 ►

but they are in no way a full answer.

01:12:07 ►

It is the life changes, choices, and healthy practices built up as a result of spirit medicine visions that are the real forces for

01:12:13 ►

change. It’s almost like psychedelic states may provide the vision of what is true like a keystone

01:12:21 ►

in an arch, but without the supporting stones around it,

01:12:25 ►

that keystone simply falls to earth and has to be propped up again.

01:12:30 ►

Many people don’t need these medicines at all to achieve a creative balance

01:12:34 ►

of inner peace and clarity of action.

01:12:37 ►

Some need them to open up to a vast new vista

01:12:41 ►

and sense their possible role in the impossible.

01:12:47 ►

vast new vista and sense their possible role in the impossible. Anyway, that’s how I have been integrating them with spiritual practices. You are already well enough along that road too,

01:12:54 ►

Chris, it sounds. As to ego and ego death, here are some thoughts from personal experience.

01:13:01 ►

I have to preface this by saying that this is in no way

01:13:05 ►

a general purpose theory for everyone. Ego, the little bugger, it does seem to die or take a

01:13:13 ►

leave of absence under specifically harsh circumstances. And depending on how the

01:13:19 ►

situation is managed and forces mustered, it can become tremendously weakened. But then it can rage back

01:13:28 ►

under its own steam. It’s almost as though in these intense realms you become truly unglued,

01:13:35 ►

where all the parts of you are visible. They become seen as members of a community,

01:13:41 ►

almost like personalities, and they’re no longer bolted down and they’re

01:13:45 ►

running around. This is good if you want to reshuffle your deck, but the flip side of the

01:13:52 ►

loosening up of the person is that the monkey mind, the heart, the pain body, the ego, and many of the

01:14:00 ►

other parts just fly around and create unforeseen and strange consequences. So for

01:14:05 ►

some it might become too easy, then, to reject people, jobs, things, and become alienated

01:14:12 ►

as a person becomes unpeeled. Without a strong center, i.e. adult supervision, by your true

01:14:21 ►

self, you can become quite erratic.

01:14:24 ►

by your true self, you can become quite erratic.

01:14:31 ►

Now, let’s take a listen to what our friend Terence McKenna has to say about the ego.

01:14:38 ►

The real issue you see around fear on psychedelics is a surrender issue.

01:14:47 ►

The ego plays a trick on you, because the ego begins to dissolve under the influence of the psychedelic and the ego sends you the message you are dying this is its last most desperate ploy

01:14:58 ►

to halt what is happening because the ego is dying and to the degree that you identify with the

01:15:06 ►

ego you’ll be driven into a state of panic now of course the ego is you or at

01:15:13 ►

least manifestation of you so should be belong the mind is also you as is the

01:15:20 ►

pain body that totally describes sexual, the worry monkey mind, and all the

01:15:27 ►

other lovely parts, they’re you too. They’re collectively you, but there is that self that

01:15:34 ►

is apart from all of them and can stand back and watch, aghast or bemused, as these other members

01:15:40 ►

bounce around. I find that when practicing yoga mind-leaving, if the mind

01:15:47 ►

comes back in, repeating a thought or even a good idea, I simply recite, think, think, think, think,

01:15:56 ►

think, as a kind of humorous, tender, but firm put-down of the mind, as much as to say,

01:16:07 ►

put-down of the mind as much as to say, that’s okay mind, it’s a good idea, but I’ve got it.

01:16:14 ►

In fact, you can watch yourself, or rather the community of self, repeating cycles going from mind to ego to sexuality to body to mind and back again. I would then say, cycle, cycle, cycle, cycle, cycle, just to recognize that a cycle has occurred.

01:16:28 ►

I would vouchsaf that most people live their lives looping in and out of greater and lesser cycles.

01:16:36 ►

Now, I don’t want to mean to say that cycles are bad.

01:16:40 ►

They are natural.

01:16:42 ►

In some sense, you can learn to know and to love your cycles.

01:16:46 ►

There are destructive cycles, but there are many constructive ones,

01:16:51 ►

and simply help your life tick along.

01:16:55 ►

Put in the laundry, make dinner, pick up the clothes from the dryer, or loving ones.

01:17:01 ►

Open heart, pick out nice gift, take special moment to present gift,

01:17:05 ►

show appreciation for person while giving gift.

01:17:09 ►

Well, does this make any sense?

01:17:13 ►

I hope so, and thank you, Chris, very much for your question.

01:17:19 ►

This has been the first response to a question on the Global Triologue.

01:17:26 ►

Find us at Facebook at Triologue and on the web at www.damer.com slash Triologue.

01:17:37 ►

This is Bruce Damer signing off and thanking you for joining us in the initiation of this global conversation

01:17:46 ►

of people out there, people here, and people elsewhere.

01:17:51 ►

Goodbye.

01:17:55 ►

And as soon as I can get the program notes posted for this podcast,

01:17:59 ►

I’ll include the links to the books that Bruce mentioned and possibly a few more.

01:18:04 ►

Also, I’ll include links to the October Gallery talk that Bruce did in Ireland,

01:18:09 ►

which is the one that Chris referred to in his question.

01:18:13 ►

And there is, however, just one thing that I think I need to correct,

01:18:17 ►

and that’s the Facebook address that Bruce just gave.

01:18:21 ►

I think that I heard him say that it was Facebook slash Trilog,

01:18:24 ►

but it’s actually Facebook.com slash Global

01:18:27 ►

Trilog. Well, that should do it for now, so

01:18:32 ►

thank you for joining us in this, the first of our

01:18:35 ►

Global Trilogs, and Bruce and I hope that you will add your own voice

01:18:40 ►

to this new global conversation as well. I really think

01:18:43 ►

that the time has come for us all to stand up and be counted.

01:18:47 ►

What do you think?

01:18:49 ►

For now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

01:18:54 ►

Be well, my friends.

01:18:59 ►

Into the light

01:19:01 ►

Into the light

01:19:03 ►

Into the light, into the light, into the light of the naked truth.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

307 - Palenque Entheobotany Seminars Remembered

Program Notes §

Previous Episode §

Next Episode §

Similar Episodes §

Transcript §

00:00:00 ► §

00:00:19 ► §

00:00:24 ► §

00:00:29 ► §

00:00:34 ► §

00:00:39 ► §

00:00:42 ► §

00:00:46 ► §

00:00:51 ► §

00:00:59 ► §

00:01:04 ► §

00:01:08 ► §

00:01:15 ► §

00:01:19 ► §

00:01:24 ► §

00:01:27 ► §

00:01:32 ► §

00:01:37 ► §

00:01:42 ► §

00:01:47 ► §

00:01:53 ► §

00:01:58 ► §

00:02:06 ► §

00:02:12 ► §

00:02:18 ► §

00:02:24 ► §

00:02:25 ► §

00:02:32 ► §

00:02:41 ► §

00:03:06 ► §

00:03:14 ► §

00:03:21 ► §

00:03:29 ► §

00:03:34 ► §

00:03:41 ► §

00:03:49 ► §

00:03:54 ► §

00:04:00 ► §

00:04:06 ► §

00:04:11 ► §

00:04:17 ► §

00:04:26 ► §

00:04:33 ► §

00:04:39 ► §

00:04:46 ► §

00:04:52 ► §

00:04:58 ► §

00:05:02 ► §

00:05:07 ► §

00:05:14 ► §

00:05:19 ► §

00:05:24 ► §

00:05:31 ► §

00:05:39 ► §

00:05:48 ► §

00:05:51 ► §

00:05:56 ► §

00:06:02 ► §

00:06:07 ► §

00:06:10 ► §

00:06:14 ► §

00:06:19 ► §

00:06:22 ► §

00:06:26 ► §

00:06:27 ► §

00:06:29 ► §

00:06:34 ► §

00:06:36 ► §

00:06:37 ► §

00:06:38 ► §

00:06:41 ► §

00:06:48 ► §

Program Notes

Previous Episode

Next Episode

Similar Episodes

Transcript

00:00:00 ►

00:00:19 ►

00:00:24 ►

00:00:29 ►

00:00:34 ►

00:00:39 ►

00:00:42 ►

00:00:46 ►

00:00:51 ►

00:00:59 ►

00:01:04 ►

00:01:08 ►

00:01:15 ►

00:01:19 ►

00:01:24 ►

00:01:27 ►

00:01:32 ►

00:01:37 ►

00:01:42 ►

00:01:47 ►

00:01:53 ►

00:01:58 ►

00:02:06 ►

00:02:12 ►

00:02:18 ►

00:02:24 ►

00:02:25 ►

00:02:32 ►

00:02:41 ►

00:03:06 ►

00:03:14 ►

00:03:21 ►

00:03:29 ►

00:03:34 ►

00:03:41 ►

00:03:49 ►

00:03:54 ►

00:04:00 ►

00:04:06 ►

00:04:11 ►

00:04:17 ►

00:04:26 ►

00:04:33 ►

00:04:39 ►

00:04:46 ►

00:04:52 ►

00:04:58 ►

00:05:02 ►

00:05:07 ►

00:05:14 ►

00:05:19 ►

00:05:24 ►

00:05:31 ►

00:05:39 ►

00:05:48 ►

00:05:51 ►

00:05:56 ►

00:06:02 ►

00:06:07 ►

00:06:10 ►

00:06:14 ►

00:06:19 ►

00:06:22 ►

00:06:26 ►

00:06:27 ►

00:06:29 ►

00:06:34 ►

00:06:36 ►

00:06:37 ►

00:06:38 ►

00:06:41 ►

00:06:48 ►

00:06:51 ►

00:06:52 ►

00:06:55 ►