Program Notes
Guest speaker: Terence McKenna
(Minutes : Seconds into program)
Previous Episode
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Next Episode
028 - In the Valley of Novelty (Part 2)
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space.
00:00:18 ►
I’m Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.
00:00:23 ►
You know, I have to admit that I had a lot of fun putting today’s program together.
00:00:28 ►
In one of my never-ending attempts to get better organized, I was cleaning out a closet
00:00:33 ►
and came across some old cassette tapes from a weekend workshop I’d taken with Terrence
00:00:39 ►
McKenna.
00:00:40 ►
It was, as the old-timers would say, it was back in the summer of 98.
00:00:48 ►
And it was an interesting workshop.
00:00:52 ►
Terrence gave it at a place that he called a New Age watering hole.
00:00:57 ►
And so I guess I should probably leave that nameless for now.
00:01:01 ►
There were about 60 of us in the group maybe as many as 80 i don’t know
00:01:05 ►
but uh we had had our first session on friday night and spent a couple hours going around the
00:01:11 ►
circle and everybody told a little bit about themselves you know i was i was really blown
00:01:17 ►
away to see the wide range of people who had been drawn together for that weekend. It was quite interesting to see just every profession and race and creed,
00:01:29 ►
and even people from all over the different countries were there.
00:01:34 ►
It was just a real eclectic group.
00:01:36 ►
I went alone, but actually I left with several friends that I know I’m going to have for the rest of my life.
00:01:42 ►
So it was a great weekend.
00:01:44 ►
And Terrence, of course, was really at the top of his form, I think.
00:01:49 ►
In fact, I’ve already played the rap that he and Ralph Abraham did that Saturday night,
00:01:55 ►
the one about the World Wide Web and the Millennium.
00:01:57 ►
Those were our podcasts 19 and 20, in case you missed them.
00:02:02 ►
What I’m going to play right now, though, is a cut from the
00:02:05 ►
Saturday morning session that begins with a question about how the internet figured into
00:02:10 ►
Terrence’s time wave theory. And from there, well, I tell you what, let’s just listen to the master,
00:02:17 ►
the one and only Terrence McKenna. The original prediction was that there would be a deep plunge into novelty in 1996.
00:02:29 ►
That it would be the deepest plunge in the 90s.
00:02:33 ►
But that was based on my mathematics before John Sheliak corrected it.
00:02:40 ►
Once his corrections were factored in,
00:02:47 ►
it. Once his corrections were factored in, it showed that there was a deep plunge into novelty where I said it was in 96, but that it wasn’t the deepest. It was the second deepest.
00:02:54 ►
The deepest was, I believe, in 93, in fall of 93, which was right when the internet was going public
00:03:05 ►
and the World Wide Web was coming into being
00:03:08 ►
and all that was happening.
00:03:10 ►
The plunge that I predicted in 1996,
00:03:13 ►
I felt pretty good about
00:03:15 ►
because right near the place
00:03:19 ►
where I predicted the maximum amount of novelty,
00:03:23 ►
we got within 10 days of each other
00:03:26 ►
the announcement of the Martian meteorite with fossils in it,
00:03:31 ►
which has since been hassled over royally, I’m aware of that.
00:03:36 ►
But still, I think it was a watershed moment
00:03:43 ►
that the President of the United States
00:03:46 ►
felt the need to address the nation on the subject of extraterrestrial life.
00:03:51 ►
It was a rare moment.
00:03:55 ►
And then within eight days of that announcement was the announcement of Dolly,
00:04:01 ►
the cloning of the sheep in England,
00:04:07 ►
which again, if certain scenarios come to pass,
00:04:11 ►
that will be a moment, you know, the point the human race passed
00:04:17 ►
from which there was no going back then.
00:04:20 ►
Because basically, if you can clone a sheep, you can clone a human being.
00:04:25 ►
And these technologies are all rushing upon us.
00:04:29 ►
I mean, the body is being dissolved as much by advanced medical technology
00:04:34 ►
as it is by cyberspace and the Internet.
00:04:39 ►
I read this story, this amazing story recently set slightly in the future.
00:04:45 ►
And this guy has been in this very bad accident
00:04:48 ►
and virtually nothing has survived but his brain.
00:04:53 ►
But they have a medical technology that they can take a fragment of flesh
00:04:58 ►
and clone him and then with hormones rapidly age the infant so that in two years there will be a brand new adult body
00:05:09 ►
for his brain to be transplanted in.
00:05:12 ►
And these people have this fantastic medical policy.
00:05:16 ►
But the fine print says that the brain can be kept alive,
00:05:21 ►
must be kept alive by a medically approved method,
00:05:24 ►
but the insurance company reserves the right to choose the cheapest method.
00:05:30 ►
And the cheapest method is implant into the body wall of the co-signatory of the insurance policy.
00:05:38 ►
So this woman carries her husband’s brain for two years inside her body cavity while his body is being grown to manhood for the transplant.
00:05:51 ►
It’s a dilemma we all may face someday.
00:05:56 ►
Yes.
00:05:58 ►
Yeah.
00:05:59 ►
I wanted to ask you about novelty and psychedelics
00:06:04 ►
and the language that changes through the use of them.
00:06:09 ►
I remember reading Maria Sabina saying that the mushrooms
00:06:13 ►
spoke a different language to her
00:06:15 ►
after people like Watson came down and began to use them.
00:06:20 ►
They went from Spanish to English,
00:06:22 ►
from Catholic mushrooms to, I don’t know, Harvard mushrooms or something.
00:06:27 ►
Harvard mushrooms.
00:06:29 ►
I don’t know.
00:06:30 ►
So I haven’t spoken with people that have taken DNA.
00:06:35 ►
I’m a DRT, so.
00:06:40 ►
In the 60s, very much, The people I’ve talked to that did
00:06:45 ►
said it was so overwhelming
00:06:46 ►
they could not even understand the language.
00:06:50 ►
I haven’t read about this anywhere.
00:06:53 ►
Maybe you can.
00:06:54 ►
Well, one place,
00:06:55 ►
there aren’t many places you can read about it.
00:06:57 ►
One place you can read about it
00:06:59 ►
is there’s a book edited by Michael Harner
00:07:02 ►
called Hallucinogens and Shamanism, Oxford University Press.
00:07:08 ►
And there’s an essay in there by Henry Munn called The Mushrooms of Language,
00:07:13 ►
which is one of the most eloquent and beautiful essays ever written on psilocybin.
00:07:18 ►
It’s so wonderful.
00:07:20 ►
Henry Munn.
00:07:22 ►
Then harder to get, but equally interesting,
00:07:25 ►
is a doctoral study that a guy named Horace Beach did at CIIS,
00:07:32 ►
and it’s called something like
00:07:34 ►
The Perception of Audio Phenomenon Under the Influence of Psilocybin,
00:07:40 ►
and he interviewed Bay Area psilocybin heads
00:07:45 ►
about their experiences with language.
00:07:48 ►
And it’s very interesting.
00:07:51 ►
This is a very interesting area of discussion.
00:07:56 ►
On DMT and on psilocybin,
00:08:00 ►
and they are closely related,
00:08:02 ►
psilocybin being for phosphoriloxy and dimethyltryptamine, the phosphorylated form of DMT, though they do not degrade into one pathway in the body.
00:08:15 ►
It’s a parallel pathway.
00:08:17 ►
DMT is NN, dimethyltryptamine.
00:08:26 ►
these psychedelics particularly seem to impact the language forming portion of the brain
00:08:30 ►
and this produces truly bizarre states of mind
00:08:35 ►
because it’s the language forming part of your brain
00:08:38 ►
that is explaining to you moment to moment
00:08:41 ►
what is going on
00:08:43 ►
now I am eating, now I am having sex, now I am flashing on DMT.
00:08:48 ►
And when that part of the brain gets foobarred, then you really do have a puzzlement on your
00:08:59 ►
hands because the machinery of description itself has been caught up in the process.
00:09:07 ►
On DMT, these entities, these machine-like, diminutive, shapeshifting, faceted, machine-elf type creatures
00:09:22 ►
that come bounding out of the state
00:09:25 ►
they come bounding out
00:09:28 ►
of my stereo speakers
00:09:29 ►
if I have my eyes open
00:09:31 ►
they are like
00:09:33 ►
you know they’re
00:09:35 ►
elf and embodiments of
00:09:37 ►
syntactical intent
00:09:38 ►
somehow syntax
00:09:40 ►
which is normally the invisible
00:09:43 ►
architecture behind language,
00:09:46 ►
has moved into the foreground.
00:09:48 ►
And you can see it.
00:09:50 ►
I mean, it’s doing calisthenics and acrobatics in front of you.
00:09:54 ►
It’s crawling all over you.
00:09:56 ►
And what’s happened is that your categories have been scrambled or something.
00:10:03 ►
And this thing, which is normally supposed to be invisible
00:10:06 ►
and in the background and an abstraction
00:10:09 ►
has come forward and is doing handsprings right in front of you.
00:10:15 ►
And the thing makes linguistic objects.
00:10:20 ►
It sheds syntactical objectification
00:10:24 ►
so that it comes toward you.
00:10:27 ►
They come toward you.
00:10:28 ►
They divide.
00:10:29 ►
They merge.
00:10:30 ►
They’re bounding.
00:10:31 ►
They’re screaming.
00:10:32 ►
They’re squeaking.
00:10:33 ►
And they hold out objects which they sing into existence or which they pull out of some other place. And these things are like jewels and lights,
00:10:47 ►
but also like consomme and old farts
00:10:51 ►
and yesterday and high speed.
00:10:54 ►
In other words, they are made of
00:10:56 ►
juxtapositions of qualities
00:11:00 ►
that are impossible in three-dimensional space.
00:11:03 ►
What they’re like is, and in fact this is probably what they are,
00:11:08 ►
what they’re like is they’re like three- and four- and five-dimensional puns.
00:11:16 ►
And you know how the pleasure of a pun lies in the fact that it’s not that the meaning flickers from A to B, it’s that it’s simultaneously
00:11:28 ►
A and B, and when the pun is really funny, it’s an A, B, C, D pun, and it’s simultaneously
00:11:35 ►
all these things.
00:11:37 ►
Well, that quality, which in our experience can only occur to an acoustical output
00:11:45 ►
or a glyph, which stands for an acoustical output,
00:11:50 ►
in other words, a printed pun.
00:11:51 ►
In the DMT world, objects can do this.
00:11:57 ►
Objects can simultaneously manifest more than one nature at once.
00:12:02 ►
And like a pun,
00:12:05 ►
the result is always funny.
00:12:08 ►
It’s amusing.
00:12:10 ►
You cannot help but be delighted
00:12:13 ►
by this thing doing this thing.
00:12:16 ►
Well, so these syntactical animals
00:12:18 ►
or these linguistic elves
00:12:20 ►
are pulling this stuff out
00:12:22 ►
and gesturing with it,
00:12:24 ►
pushing it in your face, saying,
00:12:27 ►
look at this, look at this, and you are fascinated, you know, pulled into it because each one
00:12:34 ►
is, you know, what? How can this be happening? It’s not, we’re not in the world anymore. We’re not in the world, no artist, however gifted, could make one of these objects because they have qualities, extremely difficult to language qualities that no object in this world has.
00:13:04 ►
you’re trying to wrap your mind and say, my God, what is it?
00:13:08 ►
Because in spite of the fact that it’s just a little thing,
00:13:13 ►
you can tell by looking at it that its implications are earth-shaking.
00:13:19 ►
In other words, that if I could suddenly pull one of these things out of hyperspace and we would all look at it, we would all realize that that was the ballgame right there.
00:13:25 ►
That somehow this proved it, was it, did it,
00:13:30 ►
ended it, started it, made it clear.
00:13:34 ►
How can this be?
00:13:36 ►
Well, I don’t know.
00:13:37 ►
You had to be there, sort of.
00:13:42 ►
And then what lies behind this, or as you try to analyze the situation,
00:13:48 ►
you realize that these objects that these things are making are made by utterances.
00:13:58 ►
That sound is how this trick is done.
00:14:02 ►
And meanwhile these things are saying or beaming at you.
00:14:06 ►
The general vibe is, strangely enough,
00:14:09 ►
do not give way to astonishment.
00:14:13 ►
Do not abandon yourself to wonder.
00:14:17 ►
Get a grip.
00:14:19 ►
Try to get a grip.
00:14:21 ►
And notice what we’re doing.
00:14:24 ►
Pay attention. This is the mantra we’re doing. Pay attention.
00:14:25 ►
This is the mantra.
00:14:26 ►
Pay attention.
00:14:28 ►
Pay attention.
00:14:32 ►
Well, somebody once asked me, you know,
00:14:34 ►
is it dangerous?
00:14:35 ►
And the answer is only if you fear death by astonishment.
00:14:39 ►
But death by astonishment is entirely possible.
00:14:43 ►
I’m not kidding.
00:14:44 ►
I mean, you are so fucking astonished
00:14:47 ►
that you’ve never felt your astonishment circuits
00:14:51 ►
get a workout like that before.
00:14:54 ►
I mean, what is astonishment in this world?
00:14:57 ►
It’s like, oh, this is a different form of astonishment.
00:15:01 ►
This is, you know. So, and then the whole notion that’s
00:15:10 ►
being pushed here is, do this thing. Do this activity. Do as we do. And you can sort of
00:15:20 ►
feel your intentionality or your inner something or other reorganizing.
00:15:28 ►
And there’s this like heat.
00:15:30 ►
It’s quite akin to heartburn.
00:15:32 ►
I won’t metaphysicize it.
00:15:35 ►
But heat in your stomach.
00:15:37 ►
And it just moves up.
00:15:39 ►
And then your mouth flies open.
00:15:42 ►
And this stuff comes out,
00:15:45 ►
which is a very highly articulated, syntactically controlled,
00:15:49 ►
non-English, non-European language behavior of some sort.
00:15:57 ►
Not, strictly speaking, though I call it glossolalia,
00:16:02 ►
it, strictly speaking, is not glossolalia.
00:16:04 ►
Glossolalia has been carefully studied and it’s a trance-like state.
00:16:09 ►
On the floors of these Pentecostal churches in Guatemala,
00:16:14 ►
they measured pools of saliva 16 inches across
00:16:18 ►
from people who were in ecstatic glossolalia.
00:16:23 ►
This is much more conscious, much more controlled.
00:16:27 ►
It’s almost like a kind of spontaneous singing.
00:16:30 ►
But your mind steps aside and this linguistic stuff comes out
00:16:35 ►
and you can see it.
00:16:38 ►
That’s the amazing thing.
00:16:40 ►
It is not to be heard even though it is carried as an acoustical signal.
00:16:47 ►
Its meaning resides in what happens to it when the acoustical signal is processed by the visual cortex.
00:16:54 ►
That’s the important thing.
00:16:56 ►
It is a new kind of language.
00:16:59 ►
It’s a visible three-dimensional language. It’s not something I ever heard about
00:17:06 ►
or any mystical tradition I ever heard about
00:17:09 ►
anticipated.
00:17:10 ►
But it’s as though the process
00:17:14 ►
or the project of language,
00:17:18 ►
which according to academic linguists
00:17:20 ►
began no more than 50,000 years ago,
00:17:23 ►
the process of doing language in us is not yet finished.
00:17:29 ►
And this thing we do with small mouth noises
00:17:33 ►
and each of us consulting our own learned dictionary
00:17:38 ►
and quickly decoding each other’s intent,
00:17:41 ►
this is a stumble-bum, cobbled together, half-assed way to do language.
00:17:50 ►
And what we’re on the brink of, or what these psychedelic states seem to hold out, is a
00:17:57 ►
much more seamless kind of fusion of minds by generating topological manifolds that we look at rather than
00:18:06 ►
that we
00:18:07 ►
localize into designated
00:18:12 ►
meaning
00:18:13 ►
and I didn’t mention ayahuasca in this
00:18:18 ►
rap but ayahuasca being
00:18:20 ►
along with the mushrooms
00:18:23 ►
a natural and shamanically used
00:18:28 ►
for many millennia doorway into these places.
00:18:33 ►
And what you find in ayahuasca groups
00:18:35 ►
in the upriver tribal situation
00:18:38 ►
is the whole way the ayahuasca taking is set up is to facilitate singing.
00:18:49 ►
The shamans get loaded, then they sing, then they go outside and take a leak and smoke and talk. I liked the violet and yellow part,
00:19:05 ►
but I thought the olive drab with the silver spattering
00:19:09 ►
was way over the top.
00:19:12 ►
And you think, what kind of a critique of a song is that?
00:19:18 ►
Well, it’s the critique of a song that is designed to be looked at.
00:19:22 ►
Nobody talks about the sound.
00:19:24 ►
Everybody talks about the sound.
00:19:30 ►
Everybody talks about the visual impression left by the sound. It was these groups, these ayahuasca-taking groups,
00:19:34 ►
that when the German ethnographers got into the Amazon
00:19:38 ►
in the early part of the 20th century,
00:19:40 ►
they called this chemical telepathy.
00:19:44 ►
They recognized, you know, that the reputation
00:19:47 ►
of ayahuasca is group states of mind. Well, if you’re naive, then you think you’re going
00:19:52 ►
to hear everybody thinking. No, you’re going to see everyone thinking. You know, you’re
00:19:59 ►
going to see what people mean. And it’s not that surprising when you think of it
00:20:05 ►
because obviously the world arrives at the surface of our skin
00:20:09 ►
as a seamless body of electromagnetic and acoustical and pheromonal data.
00:20:16 ►
It’s just that our eyes, our nostrils, our ears, our skin,
00:20:21 ►
we break up this incoming flow of data. And now we’re close to McLuhan
00:20:27 ►
country here. I think what this hints at is that print ske parsing perceptual data toward the
00:20:48 ►
acoustic space so that for us thought became
00:20:52 ►
a voice. And very early in the western
00:20:55 ►
tradition this is so. Jehovah is
00:21:00 ►
a voice in the Old Testament. The Logos is a voice
00:21:04 ►
in Hellenistic philosophy.
00:21:07 ►
We’re the people of the voice.
00:21:10 ►
But apparently, you know, there’s a passage in Philo-Judaist
00:21:16 ►
where he talks about the etymology of the word Israel.
00:21:21 ►
And he says Israel means he who sees God. He who sees God. And then he
00:21:29 ►
says, he poses the question to himself, what is the more perfect logos? And then he says
00:21:38 ►
the more perfect logos is that logos which goes from being heard to being seen
00:21:46 ►
without ever passing over a moment of noticeable transition.
00:21:54 ►
Well, I’ve actually seen this happen in psychedelic states
00:21:59 ►
where you will be lying in silent darkness,
00:22:02 ►
you hear distant music.
00:22:06 ►
And as the music gets closer,
00:22:09 ►
it’s like a band with lights and drums coming over a hill.
00:22:14 ►
As the music gets louder,
00:22:16 ►
it seems to physically approach
00:22:18 ►
and a confusion of light turns into, you know,
00:22:22 ►
of light turns into you know
00:22:23 ►
umpapa
00:22:25 ►
brass band, dancing
00:22:28 ►
elves, cavorting harlequins
00:22:30 ►
and
00:22:32 ►
less easily described
00:22:34 ►
denizens of the imagination
00:22:35 ►
and then it all goes
00:22:38 ►
thumping and marching past
00:22:40 ►
and disappears but it’s a perfect
00:22:42 ►
example of light and
00:22:44 ►
sound arriving together in the
00:22:47 ►
hallucinogenic space. The fact that we’ve talked here or mentioned that we have DMT in our pineal
00:22:56 ►
glands, in our brains, what we haven’t said is we also have compounds in that same organ,
00:23:02 ►
very much like what’s in ayahuasca.
00:23:07 ►
Occurring in the human pineal gland is a compound called adenoglomerotropine.
00:23:11 ►
But when you give it its physical chemical nomenclature,
00:23:17 ►
it turns out it’s 6-methoxy-tetrahydroharmalan.
00:23:22 ►
It’s a very near relative of haramine and harmaline.
00:23:26 ►
So it doesn’t strain me to believe
00:23:31 ►
that perhaps in looking at this phenomenon,
00:23:35 ►
we have actually put our finger on the place,
00:23:39 ►
the cutting edge of the evolution of consciousness right now
00:23:43 ►
at the biochemical level.
00:23:46 ►
What’s happening is there is a shifting
00:23:49 ►
or an acceleration of the concentration
00:23:52 ►
of harming like alkaloids and DMT
00:23:56 ►
in the human pineal
00:23:57 ►
and it’s affecting our ability to process language
00:24:01 ►
and it’s pushing and exacerbating
00:24:04 ►
a bias toward visual understanding.
00:24:09 ►
And I see this then also reinforced and accelerated by the evolution of media. 150 years we go from photography to color photography
00:24:26 ►
to moving
00:24:29 ►
colored photography with sound
00:24:32 ►
with stereophonic sound
00:24:34 ►
and pointing toward virtual reality
00:24:37 ►
with more and more money to be made
00:24:40 ►
at each step of the way and clearly
00:24:43 ►
with the amounts of money now it’s we’re outspending
00:24:47 ►
defense for entertainment uh we will produce simulacrums of imaginary worlds and you know
00:24:57 ►
engineering bench tests will be to make it as much like haw as possible or as much like Tibet as possible.
00:25:05 ►
But what people will really want to do with these things
00:25:08 ►
is make worlds as strange as we can stand
00:25:13 ►
that are in these virtual places.
00:25:16 ►
So whether it comes through a natural evolution
00:25:20 ►
of the human nervous system
00:25:21 ►
or the evolution of an advanced interface
00:25:24 ►
with prostheses that create virtual realities.
00:25:28 ►
I think the transformation of how we do language
00:25:32 ►
is part of this acceleration into singularity.
00:25:38 ►
Yeah.
00:25:39 ►
I believe you made a reference in one of your books
00:25:42 ►
to Julian James’ book,
00:25:45 ►
The Origin of Consciousness, and the breakdown of bicameral mind. I believe you made a reference in one of your books to Julian James’ book,
00:25:48 ►
The Origin of Consciousness, and the way it got a bicameral mind.
00:25:54 ►
And the way we evolved, and God was like an auditory hallucination before, I guess, our consciousness really developed,
00:25:58 ►
and we were thinking human beings.
00:26:02 ►
Yeah, Julian James, it didn’t win him
00:26:05 ►
too many friends but he
00:26:07 ►
wrote a big book and had this
00:26:09 ►
theory that this
00:26:11 ►
thing which we call the
00:26:13 ►
ego is so
00:26:15 ►
recent in human
00:26:17 ►
beings that it actually
00:26:19 ►
didn’t exist at the time of
00:26:21 ►
Homer and he
00:26:23 ►
goes into Homer and he shows
00:26:26 ►
that the
00:26:27 ►
God always breaks
00:26:30 ►
through in situations
00:26:32 ►
of crisis
00:26:33 ►
and danger and
00:26:36 ►
he felt that
00:26:38 ►
before Homeric times
00:26:40 ►
people were
00:26:41 ►
essentially like ants
00:26:43 ►
or something.
00:26:49 ►
That their behavior was largely instinctual and that the only time they encountered this phenomenon of free will,
00:26:54 ►
the interrupting of the instinctual pattern,
00:26:56 ►
was in situations of great crisis and impending danger.
00:27:01 ►
And then this thing would literally almost come out of the sky
00:27:05 ►
and say,
00:27:06 ►
get your ass out of there,
00:27:08 ►
save yourself.
00:27:10 ►
Well, then over time,
00:27:13 ►
this ability to access
00:27:16 ►
this higher informational thing
00:27:18 ►
was like, again,
00:27:20 ►
the metaphor of insisted,
00:27:22 ►
closed over with the membrane of the self
00:27:25 ►
and made part of the machinery of the self,
00:27:28 ►
and that this is what the ego is.
00:27:30 ►
The ego is a Greek god
00:27:32 ►
that you have frozen like an ice cube behind your eyes
00:27:36 ►
and that you think you are this thing.
00:27:40 ►
And that this is just a cultural myth,
00:27:44 ►
a necessary weird idea,
00:27:46 ►
no more a true statement about the nature of the mind of the hominid Eve
00:27:50 ►
than anything else.
00:27:54 ►
One of the conclusions that novelty theory leads to
00:27:58 ►
in terms of its feedback stuff, here and now stuff,
00:28:06 ►
is the idea that culture is not your friend.
00:28:11 ►
That culture is an impediment to understanding what’s going on.
00:28:17 ►
That’s why, to my mind, the word cult and the word culture
00:28:23 ►
have a direct relationship to each other.
00:28:27 ►
Culture is a cult.
00:28:30 ►
And if you feel revulsion at the thought of somebody offering to the great carrot
00:28:36 ►
or tithing to some squirrely notion,
00:28:39 ►
just notice that your own culture is an extremely repressive cult
00:28:47 ►
that leads to all kinds of humiliation and degradation
00:28:51 ►
and automatic and unquestioned and unthinking behavior.
00:28:58 ►
There’s a tendency to want to celebrate culture,
00:29:03 ►
springing both from the French deconstructionists
00:29:07 ►
and their fascination with culture,
00:29:09 ►
and then the effort to build pride through ethnicity thing.
00:29:16 ►
Well, that’s all very fine,
00:29:18 ►
but I think the cultures we should all revere
00:29:21 ►
are our ancestral cultures,
00:29:24 ►
the cultures most of us have our roots in,
00:29:28 ►
the actual culture we came from was probably fairly squirrely.
00:29:33 ►
I mean, the American family is what keeps American psychotherapy alive and well.
00:29:42 ►
This is a cauldron for the production of neurosis
00:29:45 ►
and in some cases little else.
00:29:50 ►
So part of what psychedelics do
00:29:55 ►
is they decondition you from cultural values.
00:29:59 ►
This is what makes it such a political hot potato.
00:30:03 ►
If there’s anything,
00:30:05 ►
since all culture is a kind of con game,
00:30:08 ►
the most dangerous candy you can hand out
00:30:12 ►
is candy which causes people to start questioning
00:30:16 ►
the rules of the game.
00:30:18 ►
So you can have a Stalinist state,
00:30:20 ►
a parliamentary democracy,
00:30:22 ►
and a theocratic state.
00:30:26 ►
And they all can agree on one thing,
00:30:28 ►
that psychedelics are just terrible
00:30:31 ►
because then citizens start asking all kinds of hard questions
00:30:36 ►
and the devotion to the values of the fatherland
00:30:42 ►
become mired in pseudo-intellectual discourse,
00:30:48 ►
and the next thing you know,
00:30:50 ►
somebody has to be shipped off to the camps
00:30:52 ►
in order to right the situation.
00:30:55 ►
Or even our own structures are dissolved
00:30:56 ►
and we’re frightened of that,
00:30:57 ►
and we’re taking those issues in that regard.
00:31:00 ►
Oh, yeah.
00:31:01 ►
No, it definitely works in the personal life.
00:31:04 ►
Like I, you know, I’ve been building a house in Hawaii
00:31:08 ►
and while I’ve been building it,
00:31:10 ►
I’ve definitely cut back my intake of psychedelics
00:31:14 ►
because I don’t want the answer to the question,
00:31:17 ►
is this a good idea,
00:31:19 ►
until it’s too late to do anything about it.
00:31:33 ►
It’s like St. Augustine’s prayer,
00:31:37 ►
God grant me chastity and continence,
00:31:38 ►
but not yet.
00:31:42 ►
Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:44 ►
One of the big ideas
00:31:46 ►
that seems to be in the notion
00:31:48 ►
of the archaic revival is that
00:31:50 ►
the whole big thing
00:31:52 ►
is really conscious and alive
00:31:55 ►
the universe, the galaxy
00:31:56 ►
the larger entities
00:31:58 ►
and that’s interesting because
00:32:00 ►
it’s a traditional belief that’s held by
00:32:02 ►
non-modern, non-scientific cultures.
00:32:08 ►
If, in fact, our belief systems
00:32:10 ►
aren’t taking us in that direction
00:32:12 ►
such that that makes sense to us,
00:32:14 ►
it’s really interesting,
00:32:15 ►
but it also sort of upsets
00:32:17 ►
the current description of evolution
00:32:21 ►
within, say, the Darwinian dogma.
00:32:26 ►
Because that seems to be, you know,
00:32:28 ►
based on the idea that it’s all very random
00:32:30 ►
and it’s just all material
00:32:32 ►
and life is a big accident that’s moving forward.
00:32:35 ►
So I think that one of the ideas
00:32:38 ►
that you’re talking about today
00:32:40 ►
is teleology.
00:32:42 ►
That whether or not when we really want to talk about evolution
00:32:45 ►
and how evolution as a theory is going to itself evolve and absorb this idea,
00:32:52 ►
comes down to whether or not these larger things have in fact some kind of direction behind them,
00:33:01 ►
which is what I think your work and observations imply.
00:33:06 ►
And so I thought one day about how to understand that, and I had a question, which is whether
00:33:14 ►
or not you can talk about creativity as having a fractal nature, since self-similarity shows
00:33:21 ►
you at various levels similar principles, and since on our level as human beings, anything that we make, we first think about.
00:33:31 ►
It begins as thought, and then it becomes matter.
00:33:34 ►
And so if creativity could be seen as having a fractal dimension,
00:33:38 ►
it would be a way to talk about all kinds of creation
00:33:42 ►
by simply understanding it at the level at which we see it.
00:33:47 ►
And it would suggest that to modify the Big Bang Theory a little bit
00:33:50 ►
before there’s a Big Bang,
00:33:51 ►
there would have to be a Big Fly.
00:33:53 ►
And you kind of move along with that idea.
00:33:55 ►
So I want to ask you a comment on that,
00:33:56 ►
but also in relation to the idea
00:34:00 ►
that is also contained in evolution
00:34:03 ►
about the origin of language,
00:34:05 ►
because some of the things you’re speaking about from your DMT experiences
00:34:09 ►
have a funny resonance with creation stories,
00:34:13 ►
like Adam and Eve naming the animals.
00:34:16 ►
And I’ve never really been all that comfortable with the idea
00:34:19 ►
that language would evolve out of grunts and groans
00:34:21 ►
when guys like Chomsky say it’s all organized.
00:34:27 ►
There’s a big system in language, and all kinds of languages can be very different,
00:34:32 ►
but inside they always have these structures.
00:34:34 ►
And nature and ecosystems and languages always seem to pop out fully formed and integrated.
00:34:41 ►
So is there any possible way that we could think that language rather than
00:34:46 ►
evolving from grunts and groans evolved
00:34:48 ►
in the opposite direction
00:34:50 ►
that the first time language was used
00:34:52 ►
it was used with the power that you
00:34:54 ►
ascribed to the machine elves
00:34:56 ►
that it was something that was done
00:34:58 ►
carefully and precisely
00:35:00 ►
because it could manifest form
00:35:02 ►
or something like that
00:35:03 ►
well in terms of how and precisely because it could manifest form, or something like that.
00:35:07 ►
One more idea.
00:35:11 ►
In terms of how new species come into being,
00:35:18 ►
the only idea that we really get to allow into the theory of evolution is that it’s an accident, that there will be a mutation,
00:35:22 ►
and a new species similar to another species will be born, and it will survive, and that will mutation and a new species similar to another species
00:35:25 ►
will be born and it will survive
00:35:26 ►
and that will lead to a new species.
00:35:29 ►
But I have a logical problem with that
00:35:31 ►
in that any female creature
00:35:33 ►
which gives birth to a new species
00:35:35 ►
is going to perceive that species as a birth defect
00:35:38 ►
and is maybe not going to want it to survive.
00:35:42 ►
And then there’s only one.
00:35:45 ►
And so that Barbara Cloud book I read talked about nine dimensions
00:35:49 ►
and said the sixth dimension was the morphogenetic field
00:35:52 ►
from which all species and organisms evolved.
00:35:56 ►
So I was kind of thinking, maybe along the lines of the metaphor of the computer,
00:36:00 ►
there’s a software program in which new species are developed and designed and the whole way in which they
00:36:06 ►
integrate themselves into
00:36:08 ►
existing ecosystems etc
00:36:10 ►
somehow or other all gets worked out
00:36:12 ►
and there’s a mystery that we don’t see and don’t understand
00:36:14 ►
by which these new forms come into being
00:36:16 ►
maybe they all come into being
00:36:18 ►
at once with a thousand or a million
00:36:20 ►
creatures instead of just one
00:36:22 ►
having a stroke
00:36:22 ►
well all this raises a lot of stuff,
00:36:27 ►
most of which I can’t remember
00:36:29 ►
because of my devotion to cannabis.
00:36:31 ►
But let’s go back to the thing about language.
00:36:35 ►
The origins of language.
00:36:37 ►
Well, the origins of language.
00:36:39 ►
Let’s talk about that for a minute.
00:36:41 ►
I think that I’ve been thinking about this
00:36:43 ►
because I’ve been writing about it. And here’s what I’ve come up with. Part of what makes it difficult for us to
00:36:52 ►
think about language clearly in English is that this word language is used by us to mean
00:37:01 ►
spoken language, and it also means the general class of linguistic activity,
00:37:07 ►
as in computer language, body language, so forth and so on.
00:37:16 ►
And to think clearly about language,
00:37:19 ►
we need to have a clear distinction between spoken language
00:37:24 ►
and the general syntactical organization of reality.
00:37:30 ►
Language, because that is old.
00:37:34 ►
Honeybees do it, dolphins do it, termites do it,
00:37:38 ►
they all do it different ways, octopi do it.
00:37:41 ►
There is much of language in nature.
00:37:44 ►
In fact, you could argue that all of nature
00:37:46 ►
is a linguistic enterprise
00:37:48 ►
because the DNA
00:37:50 ►
essentially is a symbolic system
00:37:53 ►
those codons which code for protein
00:37:56 ►
are arbitrarily assigned
00:37:59 ►
assigned in other words by convention
00:38:01 ►
there is no chemical relationship
00:38:04 ►
between the codons and the proteins they code for
00:38:07 ►
any more than there is a relationship between an English word and the thing it intends.
00:38:14 ►
Those are just conventionalized by probability over time.
00:38:19 ►
So language is deep in nature.
00:38:23 ►
What is not deep in nature is speech.
00:38:28 ►
Speech is as artificial as the water wheel,
00:38:33 ►
the bicycle pump, the Tesla coil, and the space shuttle.
00:38:38 ►
Somebody figured this out somewhere.
00:38:41 ►
So then people say, but this is hard to understand.
00:38:45 ►
It’s hard to picture how it could happen.
00:38:48 ►
Well, here’s how I think it happened.
00:38:50 ►
My little example about the songs earlier
00:38:53 ►
was a stab at this,
00:38:54 ►
but here’s more.
00:38:56 ►
It’s that all kinds,
00:38:58 ►
all non-genetic behaviors,
00:39:02 ►
which are called, reasonably enough, epigenetic behaviors, which are called, reasonably enough, epigenetic behaviors,
00:39:07 ►
are nevertheless, they’re not simply expressions of free will.
00:39:12 ►
They are under the control of a looser system of rules than the genetic rules,
00:39:19 ►
which are chemical and absolute.
00:39:21 ►
The epigenetic behaviors are under the control
00:39:25 ►
of syntactical constraints.
00:39:30 ►
In other words, we need to expand the concept of syntax
00:39:33 ►
from the rules which govern the grammar of a spoken language
00:39:38 ►
to the rules which govern the behavior of any complex system.
00:39:44 ►
So, for example,
00:39:47 ►
before speech among human beings,
00:39:50 ►
I think it was probably very touchy-feely.
00:39:54 ►
If you watch monkeys, you see this.
00:39:57 ►
They touch each other.
00:39:59 ►
They stroke, they grunt, they groom,
00:40:04 ►
they goose, they push, they do all of these things.
00:40:09 ►
The repertoire of this kind of behavior, if you’re good at it,
00:40:15 ►
may be on the order of having four or five thousand words in your vocabulary.
00:40:21 ►
Well, when we watch primates do this kind of behavior,
00:40:25 ►
we don’t think of it as a language.
00:40:27 ►
But in fact it is.
00:40:29 ►
It’s a gestural language.
00:40:32 ►
A couple of years ago some research was done
00:40:35 ►
where these people took pre-verbal infants
00:40:38 ►
and they taught them standard American sign language
00:40:43 ►
before they could speak. So these little tiny children
00:40:48 ►
could sign, pick me up, please change me, where is daddy, I’m hungry, I want to watch
00:40:55 ►
TV, before they could ever utter a word. Well, now what we’re always told about spoken language
00:41:03 ►
is it’s this miracle and that we’re genetically hardwired for it
00:41:07 ►
well these experiments seem to imply
00:41:09 ►
we’re even more genetically hardwired
00:41:11 ►
for standard American Sign Language
00:41:13 ►
which is something very few of us
00:41:15 ►
will ever learn to use
00:41:17 ►
what does this mean?
00:41:18 ►
well it means that the gestural capacity
00:41:21 ►
is deeper than the ability to verbalize, and hence probably older. So
00:41:28 ►
I think there was a gestural language as complex as standard English, probably, in place before
00:41:37 ►
anyone ever uttered a word. Now, what the psychedelics seem to suggest is that you can get so hyped up on tryptamines
00:41:46 ►
that your body goes into some kind of almost convulsive shock
00:41:53 ►
and the normally acoustically modulated processing of language
00:42:01 ►
flows over into the voice box and you begin to literally articulate syntax.
00:42:09 ►
You begin to make a noise which is a tracking noise for this ongoing syntactical stuff that’s
00:42:19 ►
organizing gestural intent.
00:42:22 ►
And it’s like going from carving in stone to color TV.
00:42:28 ►
Your listener
00:42:30 ►
immediately transfers loyalty
00:42:34 ►
to this much more spectacular
00:42:36 ►
form of behavior.
00:42:38 ►
And so it’s like literally
00:42:39 ►
that the word burst forth
00:42:42 ►
full-blown
00:42:44 ►
based on a platform of gestural syntax
00:42:48 ►
that had been maybe millions of years in its formation.
00:42:52 ►
It was just this ability to redirect the energy of syntactical intent through the body
00:42:58 ►
so that instead of coming out at the end of the fingers,
00:43:02 ►
it came out at the end of the tongue,
00:43:04 ►
flapping
00:43:05 ►
in the airstream, and this thing happened. It’s amazing to me that the straight linguists,
00:43:15 ►
you know, if you go to an academic university and study linguistics, will teach you that
00:43:20 ►
language is no more than 35 to 40,000 years old.
00:43:27 ►
I mean, that’s like yesterday.
00:43:30 ►
I mean, fire is half a million years.
00:43:33 ►
Chipped flint, a million and a half years.
00:43:35 ►
Language, 35,000 years old.
00:43:38 ►
Language is everything we are, everything we do.
00:43:40 ►
You can’t think without it. You can’t do anything without it.
00:43:48 ►
And yet, if it’s that new, then what it represents is simply a technology, a form of media that squeezed out other forms of media. And it’s
00:43:56 ►
not hard to see why. After all, it works in the dark. That’s good. It allows politics. You can make speeches to large groups of people.
00:44:10 ►
And it’s, well, it’s just very portable. It’s the cleanest technology ever put in place.
00:44:21 ►
When you think about it, it’s one of the weirdest abilities human beings exhibit.
00:44:27 ►
And when you go forward to reading,
00:44:30 ►
you realize this is an animal
00:44:32 ►
in some kind of an informational tizzy.
00:44:36 ►
I mean, the idea that you would make marks in clay
00:44:39 ►
which signify tongue noises,
00:44:43 ►
which signify designated objects
00:44:46 ►
so that these pieces of clay can be lugged hundreds of miles
00:44:49 ►
so that other people can reconstruct your thought
00:44:53 ►
by looking at these pieces of clay.
00:44:56 ►
This is bizarre.
00:44:58 ►
For animal behavior, this is absolutely…
00:45:02 ►
It’s just how they managed to do that.
00:45:07 ►
And of course, the picture writing we understand.
00:45:10 ►
But similar to the breakthrough to speech is the breakthrough to a phonetic alphabet.
00:45:16 ►
Where you see, aha, we don’t have to portray the thing we intend.
00:45:22 ►
All we have to portray is the sound of the word that signifies the thing we intend. All we have to portray is the sound of the word
00:45:26 ►
that signifies the thing we intend.
00:45:30 ►
And then, you know, you’re just roaring forward.
00:45:33 ►
And from there to the printing press,
00:45:34 ►
what is it, a couple of thousand years or something.
00:45:38 ►
And then there’s no going back.
00:45:42 ►
So that’s the part about language.
00:45:44 ►
Now, what was the second part after that?
00:45:46 ►
Well, just whether you could think about
00:45:48 ►
creativity as a principle
00:45:49 ►
that could have a fractal dimension
00:45:51 ►
and that would be a way to think about design
00:45:53 ►
on a larger universal order
00:45:55 ►
as having some consciousness.
00:45:58 ►
Well, if you think of the universe
00:46:00 ►
as an engine which produces
00:46:03 ►
and conserves novelty and you think of it as a fractal
00:46:08 ►
thing, a fractal hierarchy built up and built downward of subsets of itself, then in a sense
00:46:16 ►
every creative act is the paradigmatic act of the Big Bang. I mean, it always struck me, you know, that the end of the novelty
00:46:26 ►
wave, which is up, down, oscillate, zero, it’s like, it’s a general map of all process.
00:46:37 ►
We could be describing the life of the energy output of a star, or the firing of a single neuron or the birth and death of an economy.
00:46:48 ►
In a sense, you get down to a fractal level where you can say all processes are the same.
00:46:53 ►
They have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
00:46:56 ►
And if you know where you are in this concatenation of process, you can sort of locate yourself in the cosmic domain. The thing that I tried to talk about this morning that we need to map into our maps of reality is the acceleration.
00:47:27 ►
weird idea to talk about a thousand years in the future. I mean, good grief. A thousand years in the future? What do you imagine will be left standing that you call home? What
00:47:37 ►
will cast your mind back a thousand years? King Canute was taking charge of things across northern Northumbria, and
00:47:47 ►
the Anglo-Saxons were making forays along the coast of Norway, and very few of the concerns
00:47:56 ►
of the day have survived to this moment, and that was the slow-moving part of the process.
00:48:02 ►
We’re going to move, you know,
00:48:05 ►
in the next ten years
00:48:06 ►
further than we’ve moved
00:48:08 ►
since the time of King Canute
00:48:10 ►
to this morning.
00:48:12 ►
So, it seems to me
00:48:18 ►
the most unlikely future scenario
00:48:21 ►
is one which assumes things
00:48:24 ►
will stay more or less
00:48:26 ►
the same. Because we’ve put
00:48:28 ►
in place all these processes
00:48:30 ►
designed to make sure that
00:48:32 ►
does not happen.
00:48:34 ►
You know, rapacious capitalism,
00:48:36 ►
technological innovation,
00:48:38 ►
bourgeois,
00:48:39 ►
social aspirations in the hearts
00:48:42 ►
of every man, woman, and child on the
00:48:44 ►
planet,
00:48:45 ►
urbanization, connectivity,
00:48:50 ►
all of these processes are designed to erase reality as we know it.
00:48:57 ►
Yeah.
00:48:59 ►
I’m wondering what you think of the kind of athletic paradigm involving the states of consciousness
00:49:09 ►
we call the waking state, the freedom state, and the transcendental force state?
00:49:14 ►
And they use that on an individual basis, but also in regards to cosmologogenesis.
00:49:21 ►
And in fact, criticize the West saying that, well, the West has taken the waking state as its standard
00:49:28 ►
and evolved its philosophy, philosophical views,
00:49:32 ►
without accounting for these other states of consciousness.
00:49:38 ►
Well, certainly the West has built its house
00:49:41 ►
on a narrow foundation,
00:49:45 ►
denying these other possibilities.
00:49:50 ►
On the other hand,
00:49:52 ►
well, you get into all kinds of difficulties here.
00:49:59 ►
How do you judge whether or not a civilization
00:50:02 ►
has assimilated or explored the domains it’s named its own.
00:50:08 ►
One way is by looking at the technological applications that it’s created. And for all
00:50:15 ►
this talking about these other states of mind, they seem actually as mysterious to the east
00:50:21 ►
as they are to the west. I don’t get the feeling they’re really navigating
00:50:27 ►
through what they’re talking about.
00:50:29 ►
In the past, there may have been levels of understanding.
00:50:33 ►
It may be, see, that psychology,
00:50:39 ►
though it’s a mystery to us,
00:50:41 ►
it may be that it’s an easier nut to crack
00:50:44 ►
than the nut of matter. And so
00:50:47 ►
I don’t have any trouble believing that Vedic India of 3500 BC may have known all kinds
00:50:54 ►
of things about how the mind works and how to navigate through these imaginal spaces spaces that we’ve lost. But the spirituality of modern India is thoroughly contaminated
00:51:09 ►
by a thousand years of commerce with Islam and the West. It isn’t that different, really.
00:51:18 ►
I mean, Vedic theology and German idealism are strikingly similar cousins.
00:51:26 ►
Yeah.
00:51:29 ►
In spite of a number of things in conflict,
00:51:33 ►
when you talk about the arcades of the Bible
00:51:35 ►
and then the current sort of cultural revolution,
00:51:39 ►
technological revolution,
00:51:40 ►
it seems to me that a lot of the stimulus for novelty that was generated by psychedelic experience
00:51:52 ►
now may be generated without that experience,
00:51:56 ►
such as through virtual reality technological advancements,
00:52:02 ►
and perhaps would maybe make the psychedelic
00:52:06 ►
experience less
00:52:07 ►
necessary in order to be
00:52:09 ►
a point of
00:52:10 ►
observe in the whole process
00:52:13 ►
well definitely
00:52:15 ►
what you’re getting at is that technology
00:52:17 ►
itself is a kind of psychedelic
00:52:19 ►
drug
00:52:20 ►
that you know by chance
00:52:23 ►
or design
00:52:24 ►
the proponents of psychedelica have figured out that it’s
00:52:29 ►
totally acceptable to this culture if you disguise it as electronic entertainment and
00:52:36 ►
put it out that way. So the web is incredibly subversive. Simply the fact that all that information is there and available
00:52:46 ►
in a world where control of access to information has always been the game.
00:52:52 ►
So yeah, the way I see it is that the psychedelic people
00:52:57 ►
need to use the new information technologies
00:53:02 ►
to build art of a type more powerful and more compelling
00:53:09 ►
than the world has ever seen. Call it virtual reality, call it multimedia, whatever you
00:53:16 ►
want, but it’s basically walk into, walk around art. And then the boundaries will fall for ordinary people.
00:53:28 ►
Because you see, when you build a virtual reality, in a sense, what that technology
00:53:35 ►
is allowing you to do is it’s allowing you to show people the inside of your own head.
00:53:41 ►
We have never had a technology that would do that. We think the inside of
00:53:46 ►
our heads are all the same. But, you know, when I say to you that when I smoke DMT, it
00:53:53 ►
unleashes a Niagara of alien beauty, if I had spent the last 30 years building that
00:53:59 ►
Niagara of alien beauty so that you could just strap on the goggles and go, then we
00:54:06 ►
would have a very different kind of dialogue and relationship going. And so I really see
00:54:12 ►
art as the great searchlight that illuminates the historical landscape just ahead. And I
00:54:22 ►
think that art is about to get teeth for the first time in human history.
00:54:28 ►
I mean, it’s all very fine scratching on cave walls and film and video and all that, but
00:54:34 ►
it’s always artifice. You never are convinced, or only for seconds, that you’re in the presence
00:54:43 ►
of reality when you’re in the presence of art.
00:54:45 ►
But we will build art that will literally stand your hair on end.
00:54:50 ►
And the amount of creativity in a single human mind is, as I said,
00:54:56 ►
more than fills all the museums of this planet.
00:55:00 ►
So what we need is to figure out how to get a spigot into that
00:55:03 ►
and get this stuff out.
00:55:05 ►
And then, as James Joyce said, man will be dirigible.
00:55:12 ►
Well, as you may have surmised by now,
00:55:16 ►
the way Terence ran his workshops, or at least that weekend,
00:55:20 ►
was to not use any kind of an outline,
00:55:23 ►
but instead just respond to questions that would take us, as he called it,
00:55:28 ►
into the valley of novelty.
00:55:30 ►
I think that was the title of the workshop that weekend.
00:55:33 ►
I’ve heard this tape actually probably a half dozen times or more now,
00:55:37 ►
and I still hear something new each time I listen to it.
00:55:40 ►
So that’s what I really recommend that you do right now.
00:55:44 ►
Go back to the beginning of Terrence’s talk and really listen to it. So that’s what I really recommend that you do right now. Go back to the beginning
00:55:46 ►
of Terrence’s talk and really listen to it right now while it’s fresh in your mind. There’s
00:55:52 ►
a lot of really important information here that you don’t want to miss. And what I think
00:55:57 ►
sometimes happens is Terrence will say something and you’ll be off in the clouds thinking about
00:56:02 ►
what he said and you’ll miss about six thoughts in the meantime, because he’s a pretty rapid-fire thinker.
00:56:09 ►
And before you go, I just want to thank you again for joining this extended family of
00:56:14 ►
now thousands of us here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:56:18 ►
It’s good to get together with you again.
00:56:21 ►
And Jacques, Cordell, and Wells, my friends in Chateau Hayouk, thanks again for the use of your
00:56:27 ►
great music here in the Psychedelic Salon. And for now, this is Lorenzo, signing off from
00:56:33 ►
Cyberdelic Space. Be well, my friends. you