232 - Fisher, Stolaroff, and Al Hubbard

Program Notes

Click HERE to see the video of this conversation.
This program marks
Our 5th Anniversary!

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the archiving of Myron Stolaroff’s resources

Guest speakers: Myron Stolaroff and Gary Fisher

https://goo.gl/photos/Wvro3otwu2rjeNRs9This is a conversation that took place between Myron Stolaroff, Gary Fisher, and a group of friends at the legendary salon that Kathleen hosted on the third Friday of every month in Venice Beach, California.

The talk begins with Myron telling stories about the legendary Al Hubbard, also known as the Johnny Appleseed of LSD. He then goes on to explain the workings of his research center in Menlo Park, California where they treated over 300 people with LSD in the 1960s in order to help them improve their creativity. He also tells of the historic first trip of Duncan Blewett, which led the Saskatchewan researchers to change the direction of their work.

For his part, Gary Fisher expands on some of the comments we heard in earlier podcasts when he talked about his work with autistic and schizophrenic children who were treated with LSD and other psychedelic medicines. He also tells of a self-experiment he did to study the effectiveness of LSD in reducing severe pain. Here is a sampling of Gary’s comments that evening:

” ‘We didn’t have any bad trips because we didn’t know you could have bad trips.’ [quoting Laura Huxley] So all the input we ever had from anybody was how wonderful the [LSD] experience was. So we didn’t have any sense that it was other than positive, and what a blessing that was.”

“How do you tell kids that the government is fucked?”

“When you want people to be just one thing they bite you in the ass.”

Research Report by Dr. Gary Fisher
An Investigation to Determine Therapeutic Effectiveness of
LSD-25 and Psilocybin on Hospitalized
Severely Emotionally Disturbed Children
HTML Version PDF version
Audio Discussion with Dr. Fisher and Dr. Grob
“Treating Childhood Schizophrenia with Psychedelics”

Transcript

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Greetings from cyberdelic space.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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Psychedelic Space. This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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And it was just five years ago today that I posted my first podcast from the salon,

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which means that this is the first program of our sixth year together.

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And if we’re not careful, we’re soon going to be in a long-term relationship, at least by today’s standards.

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Now, before I do anything else, I would first like to acknowledge the woman without whom I would not be here today.

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My dear departed mother, who would have been 95 years old today.

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Happy birthday, Mom. I love you.

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And some other people I would like to thank right now are Tyler S., Colin F., and Michael H.,

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all of whom sent in donations to help offset some of the expenses here in the salon this week.

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So, thank you very much, Tyler, Colin, and Michael.

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And I would also like to thank you, for without you, it would be pretty lonely around here.

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And I think you should also know how unique you are.

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After reading down the list of titles from all of these podcasts over the past five years, Thank you. philosophical lectures. But here we are, together once again in the psychedelic salon, trying to push the boundaries of our minds ever farther to the outer reaches of thought. Or, as in

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my case, hey, I just like listening to this stuff, and I try to not put a lot of thought

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into why I’m wired the way I am. I’m just happy that you and I seem to be resonating

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at some level that feels right, that feels like we’re doing whatever small things we can

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to keep our species on an even keel as we navigate these treacherous waters ahead.

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So, how’s that for melodrama?

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It’s the best I can do right now,

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because what I really want to do is to listen to this talk once again.

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And the talk I’m referring to is a conversation that took place

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between Myron Stolaroff, Gary Fisher, and a group of friends

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at the legendary salon that Kathleen hosted

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on the third Friday of every month in Venice Beach, California.

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Sadly, these salons ended a few years ago,

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but at least I have a recording that was made

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on the evening of March 19, 2004

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that I’m going to play for you right now. And since I’ve already done several other podcasts © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Thank you. Gary and Myron are teasing one another about having memory problems.

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Sadly, today Myron is now suffering from dementia and essentially has no memory of the past anymore,

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which makes this recording even more precious to me because we’ll never hear Myron tell these tales again.

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And so I’m glad that I more or less forced the two of them to lead our discussion that evening.

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Kathleen and I have been trying to get them to do that for a year or more,

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but they always found some excuse not to.

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Then, about a week before the March Salon,

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Kathleen called me and said that her speaker had canceled at the last minute and asked if I knew anyone who could fill in.

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Well, I knew that Myron was already planning on attending,

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and since my wife and I had already planned on bringing Gary with us,

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so they simply couldn’t wiggle out of it this time.

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And then at the very last minute, I realized that an evening like that may never come again and should be recorded.

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So I called my friend Jarrett, who borrowed a video camera and drove all the way across L.A. to get it to me in time.

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all the way across L.A. to get it to me in time.

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And that tape, which was in high eight,

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sat on my desk until recently when I finally got around to asking my friend Alan Lundell

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to digitize it for me.

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And eventually I’ll get the clips from it up on YouTube.

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But right now we’re going to hear the audio

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from that evening’s salon for the very first time,

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thanks to Alan, Jarrett, Kathleen,

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and of course Myron and Gary.

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So now let’s travel back in time to

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one of those magical evenings at Kathleen’s

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salon and listen to Gary Fisher

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and Myron Stolaroff tell us a few

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stories that may help us shed

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a little more light on the early days of our

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current psychedelic resurgence.

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And by the way,

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by the end of this discussion, they finally make it to

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the funny stories, of which I’m sure you have many of your own.

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Now, I’m going to just jump right into the point immediately after I had introduced Myron and Gary as the evening’s entertainment.

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But keep in mind that both of them were also regulars at this monthly salon, and so it wasn’t like they were new to the crowd.

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Okay, you guys can take it from there.

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Myron’s going to talk for a while about himself, hopefully, and Al Hubbard. And after he’s finished,

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then we’re going to take questions

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from the audience.

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But while he’s talking,

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we don’t want to interrupt.

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Just train us up

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because he’ll never get back to us.

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My thoughts disappear this fast.

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I know because I’ve got the same syndrome.

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I was a little

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disconcerted to get a call from George Bush

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earlier today, and Myron’s

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been appointed sainthood.

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Well, he’s

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the Pope, and so

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I don’t know who this guy is here.

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I thought I knew him.

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So,

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Myron, let’s start.

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Okay.

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One of the questions that Gary asked me,

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which I hope you’ll all be interested in,

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is how did I get mixed up with Hubbard in the first place?

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And it’s a really fascinating story to me, anyway.

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But I’d gotten acquainted with Gerald Herd in Southern California,

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who’s one of the world’s really great mystics and a marvelous author, if you’ve read his books.

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And I was very taken with him.

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And I was with Ampex Corporation and went to Southern California frequently. And every time that I went down there in business, I tried to see Gerald.

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So one time I was visiting him,

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and he started telling me about LSD and taking it

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and what a remarkable thing it was

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and all the openings that it provided.

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I thought, my God, what’s a mystic doing taking drugs anyway?

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And so I didn’t do much more about it,

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but then Alex Poniatoff was the head of Ampex Corporation,

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and he’d gone to Canada,

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and somehow or other he’d run into Hubbard.

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And he came back and told me all kinds of stories

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that Hubbard had told him about the work he was doing.

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So I thought, well, gee whiz, maybe I’ll get in touch with him.

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So I wrote Al a letter, and much to my amazement,

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two or three months later, there he is on the steps of Ampex.

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So we got acquainted, and I was sucked in immediately.

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He’s a very gregarious person,

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full of fun and laughter.

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And the thing that got me,

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I was all shut up inside myself

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and worried about this and that

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and the other thing.

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I could never really feel anybody.

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But in his presence, I could feel his warmth.

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And especially as I got to know him

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and spent more time with him,

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I just thought it was great just to be in his presence.

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And he’s full of stories

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and all kinds of interesting things.

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So it only took that one meeting for me

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to make up my mind that I wanted to go to Canada,

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where he lived, and have LSD.

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And my first LSD experience was just absolutely remarkable. So I think I ventured to say right off the bat

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that that’s the greatest discovery man has ever made.

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Because I don’t know much else about what other man discovered,

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but as far as I’m

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concerned, I’m willing to stand by that. So that’s how I got into it. And Hubbard came

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down, introduced him to some folks. Sometimes we got along with some that he didn’t. But

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in the end, I just saw that I had to spend the rest of my life as much as possible in doing something about LSD.

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So I used to visit him quite a bit.

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He got together with Ross McLean in Canada.

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Ross McLean was a psychiatrist who had a mental hospital.

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And they administered LSD there and I visited him there.

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And after a while, it got to the point where I felt we

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had to do something and so we started the clinic in Menlo Park where for three and a

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half years we gave people LSD, some mescaline, a little bit of psilocybin at times until

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the FDA finally put a stop to everything in 1965.

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So that’s how it got involved.

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And Myron, tell us how, at Humber, how did he get a hold of Ellen Steiner?

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How was he introduced to her?

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I’m not sure exactly who the people were that he got involved with.

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He did run into someone in the Vancouver area who introduced him to LSD,

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and it only took one shot with him.

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He had an amazing opening, a tremendously spiritual experience,

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and he felt actually he’d been given a mission to

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really spread this around. Fortunately at the time he was very well off financially.

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He had a very close friend who was wealthy. He gave LSD to his friend, and his friend

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had the same kind of opening and was willing to support him in anything that he wanted to do. So he began to devote a lot of time meeting people,

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getting acquainted, and he was very good at sizing people up and assessing whether they’d

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make good candidates, and he was very good at supporting people through the experience.

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So he began to spread the word around,

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and he covered an awful lot of ground.

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My connection was secondhand to him

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because my mentor was a guy by the name of Nick Chawalos,

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who was my brother-in-law.

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And he was a research psychiatrist at the University of Saskatchewan.

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And at the time, they were studying LSD,

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and it was called at that time a psychotomimetic, mimicking psychosis.

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So they were giving people LSD,

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thinking they would discover what were the structures and the dynamics of psychosis.

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And Al went over and said, it’s easy to make people crazy. What’s hard is to make them sane.

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And LSD will make them sane and won’t make them crazy.

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But if you give it the wrong, if you don’t give it in the proper environment, it will make them crazy. And so that’s how, and

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I don’t know how he got to the Saskatchewan, it was called the Saskatchewan Group on Schizophrenia,

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that was the name of their project, and that was Hoffer and Osmond, and then my brother-in-law

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Nick Chawalas and then his partner, Duncan Blewett. And I had my first experience there with them in 1959

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before any of you were born.

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And I got born that day that I had my first session.

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And, Myra, why don’t you tell us a bit about

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the work that was done at Menlo Park?

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Well, I’ll be glad to do that,

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but I’d like to interject a little bit

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of what you just said about Duncan and Wood,

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because I’m not sure how the connection was made,

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but Al went to central Canada

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and met with Hoffer and Osmond,

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and he’d heard about their approach,

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which really wasn’t recognizing what LSD would do at all,

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but somehow he met Blewett,

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and he’s very sensitive,

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and Blewett’s a very open, warm person.

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He recognized right away that Blewett would be a good candidate.

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So he gave Blewett LSD,

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and he was off with Osman and Hoffer,

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and he went in and looked at Blewett,

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and Blewett was just having the time of his life.

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So he went out to see Hoffer and Osman,

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and he says,

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you know, this guy Blewett is having a psychosis.

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You better come in and see if you can get him out of it.

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So they walked in, and immediately Blewett started laughing and laughing.

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And Al says, see? See? Can you get him out of it?

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And he would just laugh all the way.

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Well, anyhow, Hubbard worked with McLean at his hospital there for several years,

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and I got to visit that.

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And then Hubbard, well, he’s not an easy guy to get along with.

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He very much likes things his own way,

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and I’m not sure what the conflict got between he and he and the claim

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but he decided to set up his own

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treatment place in downtown

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Vancouver and that went on

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for a while and I thought gee whiz

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we ought to do the same in

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California.

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So I put the necessary

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things together. Fortunately

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I accumulated a little cash and we set up a place where really it was set up pretty much the way Al designed it.

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beautiful pictures on the wall,

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a lot of artifacts for people to look at to stimulate them in various ways.

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And then, of course, one of his main tricks

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was to have people bring pictures of their family,

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their parents, their siblings,

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their marriage partners, and so on,

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because looking at that under the influence

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is tremendously revealing.

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And he had several really good pictures, too,

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that actually one just really opened me wide open.

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Well, I don’t know how much time…

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Is that St. Veronica’s Veil?

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Yeah.

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Oh, hell.

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I use it thousands of times and it’s worn out.

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It’s a…

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Well, Al was a Catholic.

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And so it was…

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The setup that I created for my work

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was exactly what they had in Menlo Park

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because it’s what they had in Saskatchewan.

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So we were all benefactors of Al’s insights.

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And my understanding is when Christ was carrying the cross,

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he fell and Veronica wiped his brow with her handkerchief.

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And then the next day on the handkerchief was the image of Christ

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and this awesome painter called St. Veronica Dale.

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And the most powerful thing, we used it every session.

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You know, when they used it with me, I was not happy with Christian when telling them.

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I mean, I had a family of Christians, and they were all cooey.

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And so I wasn’t about to look at it,

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but Nick, every hour or so,

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he’d pass it to me again,

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and I’m not ready for that.

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And so finally, thank God,

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I looked at it,

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and it was an overpowering experience

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to experience what Christ’s love is.

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And I was astounded.

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I was absolutely astounded.

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So that worked for me,

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and I thought if it works for me,

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hell, it can work for anybody.

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Well, you’re certainly right in my case.

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I’ll just elaborate briefly. i’ve covered this in the book

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but i looked at this figure and one of the things about it is one of these pictures where you look

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and the eyes are open and then you keep looking the eyes closed did that happen with you so i saw

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the eyes closed and oh my, something’s wrong with me.

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Why is he closing his eyes?

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Because the picture, when you’re under LSD,

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is so alive, it’s almost like

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the living person in front of you.

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It is.

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And so I looked again,

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and then all of a sudden,

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there was a swish,

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and I was looking at a female face.

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My God, what’s happening here?

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And all of a sudden, swish, another face.

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And then in the next few minutes,

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a thousand faces of all variety of mankind went by.

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And I said, this is every man.

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I’m Jewish, mind you.

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No worries about it.

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I was Jewish.

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That’s real good. One of the things I suppose you all know, but you may not, but in that era, nobody had

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a clue what LSD was.

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But a funny story, when I was working with my group of kids that I worked with,

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I was working at a hospital in Costa Mesa with schizophrenic and autistic children.

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And I thought, well, hell, if it worked with me, it can work with anybody.

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So I told the psychiatrist in charge, I said,

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I want to give these kids LSD and see what will happen.

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And so what’s LSD?

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Well, this is the name of it.

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Well, is there any literature?

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No.

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And so he sort of trusted me.

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And so we just got LSD from Sandos and started using it.

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But nobody knew what it was.

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So there weren’t any committees or evaluating

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what we were going to do. We didn’t know what we were going to do. I never knew what I was. So, you know, there weren’t any committees or evaluating what we were

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going to do. We didn’t know what we were going to do. I didn’t even know what I was going

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to do. One of the funny things, I was telling somebody one time that I was doing this work,

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LSD work with these children, and the guy looked at me and said, you’re converting children to Mormonism?

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I said, no, no.

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LSD, not LDS.

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He clearly had a learning disability.

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He needs it.

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So the environment was absolutely wonderful. Laura Huxley, Myron and I both have known Laura forever, and she made the

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comment one time, we didn’t have any bad trips because we didn’t know you could have bad trips.

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So all the input that we ever had from anybody was how wonderful the experience was. So we didn’t have any set that was other

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than positive. And what a blessing that was, because it hadn’t gotten anywhere. It was

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totally unknown. And there were a few groups around the world that were using it. A friend of mine in Holland was using it.

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And another friend of mine in London was using it.

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So we would all find each other somehow,

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because there wasn’t any Internet in those days.

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But, you know, word gets around.

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And one of my best friends came to be Joyce Martin,

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who’s an analyst in London,

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and out of the Tavistock Clinic.

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And she did incredible work.

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And Aaronson Hine in Holland,

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incredible work.

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He had his own hospital,

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and that’s all he did was LSD work.

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And just awesome kinds of results.

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And then came, along came,

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I was going to say leery the devil, but I won’t.

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Along came shit, and they hit the fan,

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and then we were all closed down.

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So then we did it all, well, some of us did it without government approval

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I guess you would say

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do you want to

00:22:31 ►

make any other comments

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or should we ask people for questions

00:22:35 ►

let me just mention

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one more thing

00:22:39 ►

with regard to Hubbard

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I think his

00:22:42 ►

going to

00:22:44 ►

mid-Canada to Hoffer and Osmond, and the

00:22:50 ►

demonstration with Blewett really opened their eyes, and I think it really was the beginning

00:22:56 ►

of people beginning to discover what LSD could do.

00:23:00 ►

And they went and started doing a variety of programs.

00:23:09 ►

And Toilus and Blewett worked together for several years with alcoholics. And then the other hospitals in Canada were trained and did it.

00:23:14 ►

So I really think you have to say that Hubbard was an enormous factor

00:23:20 ►

in LSV being properly recognized for its true merits and work proceeding. Actually,

00:23:27 ►

in America, they’re harder to convince, and I don’t think they caught on nearly as well

00:23:36 ►

as the Canadians did. There are a few that did some pretty good work in America, but

00:23:41 ►

by and large, I think you have to give Hubbard a lot of credit for getting the thing moving.

00:23:46 ►

But, Martin, you wanted to read something, didn’t you?

00:23:52 ►

Well, I could at this point. What I was going to, you know, Hubbard is such a fascinating

00:23:58 ►

guy, I thought I would read several things to give you, to show you how different people saw him.

00:24:05 ►

First, I might start off with the fact that, now, I have to say here, I don’t know exactly

00:24:15 ►

whether any of this stuff is true, because Hubbard was, he was all over the map.

00:24:22 ►

But he claims that he never wore shoes

00:24:25 ►

until he was 13 years old

00:24:27 ►

and then at the age of 22

00:24:30 ►

he was in the water near Seattle

00:24:36 ►

and he had a boat

00:24:37 ►

that was driven with something that he invented

00:24:41 ►

and a lot of people went out and saw that,

00:24:46 ►

and it was in the local newspapers there.

00:24:49 ►

And Hubbard claimed that there was a perpetual motion machine

00:24:58 ►

that he himself had claimed.

00:25:01 ►

People looked at it, and nobody could figure it out.

00:25:03 ►

There’s no way to say that it wasn’t so,

00:25:06 ►

but the thing is that boat went all around for long periods of time

00:25:10 ►

without any apparent fuel.

00:25:13 ►

And then he sold, I don’t think there’s a connection.

00:25:16 ►

Some people say there’s a connection,

00:25:18 ►

but I think independently he came up with some kind of gadget

00:25:23 ►

that he sold for $75,000,

00:25:26 ►

which at that time was a lot of money.

00:25:28 ►

And then he said he found out afterwards that whatever it did worked so well

00:25:33 ►

that it was worth a great deal more money than what he got for it.

00:25:40 ►

Anyway, I’d like to read a little bit about how different people saw him.

00:25:46 ►

I think one of the first, he and Bluett became very, very good friends.

00:25:51 ►

I’m going to read out of this book here.

00:25:54 ►

This is a letter that Bluett wrote to Hubbard.

00:25:59 ►

He says,

00:26:00 ►

Hello, ye old goat.

00:26:05 ►

Whose old uncle…

00:26:07 ►

You know, my eyes are getting so bad,

00:26:08 ►

I can hardly read this.

00:26:10 ►

Let me see if I can read it for you, Brian.

00:26:12 ►

Okay.

00:26:13 ►

Starting right here.

00:26:14 ►

Okay.

00:26:17 ►

I’m mostly blind.

00:26:19 ►

Whose old uncle forgets him

00:26:20 ►

and never, never writes him a letter?

00:26:23 ►

My uncle Al, that’s who.

00:26:26 ►

What are they doing to you these days that you neglect your fat nephew? I’ve been watching the incoming

00:26:32 ►

mail, reading all the aircraft and reading all the police news regularly in hopes that

00:26:37 ►

I’d catch some glimpse of a letter from you, yourself, or your name in headlines. Now,

00:26:42 ►

you get the reference from the police news.

00:26:48 ►

Al was a magician, wasn’t he?

00:26:49 ►

He definitely was. He was a cosmic jokester.

00:26:53 ►

He was.

00:26:54 ►

He was a funny, funny man.

00:27:01 ►

But he knew how to make the right connections.

00:27:04 ►

However, despite my vigilance

00:27:06 ►

there hasn’t been the slightest indication

00:27:08 ►

that you’re still alive

00:27:09 ►

if I didn’t know that it would take

00:27:11 ►

a battalion of enraged grizzly bears

00:27:13 ►

to hear you in

00:27:14 ►

I’d have been so worried

00:27:16 ►

I wouldn’t be asleep by now

00:27:17 ►

there’s another picture

00:27:19 ►

that floats through my mind eye

00:27:21 ►

in fact a whole series of pictures

00:27:23 ►

of Al basking in the sunshine

00:27:25 ►

in some Pacific isle, watching ball games in Wichita, catching huge fish off Boca Grande,

00:27:32 ►

and generally living a life of idle bliss. How about a few lines of communication to

00:27:38 ►

let me know if we still fly the same flag and what the latest developments have been.

00:27:43 ►

All the very best and good wishes. May the sound of police whistles cease

00:27:48 ►

to annoy you and become music to your ears.

00:27:52 ►

Oh, that’s where that was taken.

00:27:56 ►

Jokester to jokester.

00:27:59 ►

And here’s a statement from Aldous Huxley.

00:28:05 ►

This is excerpted from his book, Mokeshaw.

00:28:13 ►

And this was, well, actually this was a letter that he wrote to Humphrey Osmond.

00:28:20 ►

He says, I am hopeful that the good captain,

00:28:23 ►

oh, incidentally, Hubbard made himself captain,

00:28:27 ►

but he did have a 120-foot boat, so I guess he’s entitled to that.

00:28:32 ►

Well, he was captain of a good ship lollipop, right?

00:28:36 ►

I’m hopeful that the good captain,

00:28:39 ►

whose connections with uranium seem to serve as a passport

00:28:43 ►

into the most exalted spheres of government,

00:28:46 ►

business, and ecclesiastical

00:28:49 ►

polity. He is about

00:28:52 ►

to take off for New York, where I hope

00:28:55 ►

he will storm the United Nations, take

00:28:58 ►

Nelson Rockefeller for a ride to heaven,

00:29:01 ►

and return with millions of dollars.

00:29:04 ►

What babes in the woods we literary gents and professional men are.

00:29:10 ►

The great world occasionally requires your services, this is Osmond’s,

00:29:14 ►

is mildly amused by mine,

00:29:17 ►

but its full attention and deference are paid to uranium and big business.

00:29:23 ►

So what extraordinary luck that this representative

00:29:26 ►

of both these higher powers should, A, have become so passionately interested in masculine,

00:29:33 ►

and B, be such a very nice person.

00:29:39 ►

It was very interesting, too, to see sort of the net, how LSD was networked around the country.

00:29:49 ►

It did get into very well-known people,

00:29:55 ►

were turned on by Claire Booth Luce was one of them.

00:29:59 ►

She had quite a remarkable experience.

00:30:03 ►

And I don’t know if you know, like Henry Luce,

00:30:06 ►

he was a pretty, you know,

00:30:09 ►

broomstick up his ass kind of guy.

00:30:12 ►

And so she gave him acid.

00:30:15 ►

And he was a very devout Catholic.

00:30:18 ►

And she said he was 15 hours on his knees

00:30:21 ►

praying that he would survive.

00:30:26 ►

And a lot of the Hollywood people

00:30:29 ►

got involved in the networking.

00:30:32 ►

Cary Grant was one of them, particularly.

00:30:36 ►

And there was a young and people of hints

00:30:42 ►

of different kinds of industries,

00:30:48 ►

I was familiar with.

00:30:50 ►

I turned on a few of them, too.

00:30:55 ►

And it was very interesting how, like,

00:30:59 ►

one session would change how a whole company was run.

00:31:01 ►

I turned this guy on.

00:31:03 ►

He was really a toughie. But he had something there that he was intrigued by my whole attitude.

00:31:12 ►

He couldn’t figure out what.

00:31:14 ►

And I said, well, I was an uptight, really.

00:31:17 ►

I mean, all I was was one big IQ walking around before I put that on.

00:31:21 ►

It was just like I was nothing but brain.

00:31:25 ►

And I was a basket case.

00:31:28 ►

And so I told him that.

00:31:30 ►

And I guess he thought, well, hell,

00:31:31 ►

if it made you into a human being,

00:31:33 ►

maybe it can make me into a human being.

00:31:36 ►

And it did.

00:31:38 ►

And he owned his own company.

00:31:40 ►

And he changed that whole company around

00:31:42 ►

where people were teaching people below them what

00:31:47 ►

their skills were and what their knowledge was.

00:31:51 ►

So everybody in the company was teaching somebody below them to take over their jobs eventually.

00:31:57 ►

It was an amazing thing and they didn’t have hours anymore.

00:32:01 ►

People would come in and work when they wanted to.

00:32:04 ►

And it became a

00:32:06 ►

real family. And this was from one guy taking LSD. All the employees never had LSD, to make

00:32:15 ►

that clear. But just from that he owned the company and the changes that he instituted.

00:32:22 ►

And of course I was very instrumental in suggesting to him

00:32:25 ►

what kinds of things could be done.

00:32:28 ►

The atmosphere in that place was just amazing.

00:32:31 ►

And there was another place down in San Diego

00:32:33 ►

where the guy who owned the company

00:32:35 ►

was turned on.

00:32:37 ►

And he also changed his whole company

00:32:39 ►

the way the whole thing ran.

00:32:41 ►

And then they started doing profit sharing.

00:32:44 ►

And they just became like a big extended family. the way the whole thing ran. And then they started doing profit sharing,

00:32:49 ►

and they just became like a big extended family.

00:32:51 ►

So there’s all kinds of history.

00:32:53 ►

Seems like we could use that today in today’s corporate atmosphere.

00:32:58 ►

Albertan.

00:33:01 ►

What was the name of the company?

00:33:02 ►

They need to IV that over there.

00:33:04 ►

What were the name of the companies, if you don’t mind?

00:33:07 ►

No.

00:33:08 ►

Oh, okay.

00:33:11 ►

Are they still around, these things?

00:33:13 ►

I know the owner of one died.

00:33:18 ►

So I don’t know if he sold it before he died or not.

00:33:24 ►

I think your idea of asking what people might want to know.

00:33:28 ►

Yeah.

00:33:32 ►

Believe it or not, I was a professor at one time

00:33:34 ►

at UCLA of all places.

00:33:36 ►

And I never lectured in my life.

00:33:39 ►

I would just ask people, what do you want to know about?

00:33:41 ►

And then people would say what they wanted to know about

00:33:43 ►

and that’s what we talked about.

00:33:46 ►

So I thought that we would do the same thing. Ask people, well, what do you want to know about?” And then people would say what they wanted to know about, and that’s what we talked about. So I thought that we would do the same thing,

00:33:48 ►

ask people, well, what do you want to know about?

00:33:51 ►

Has there been any follow-up work done with the autistic children

00:33:54 ►

that you gave LSD to?

00:33:57 ►

No, because what happened…

00:34:04 ►

The project was closed down, of course course because we couldn’t use it anymore.

00:34:08 ►

And so when I went back to try to find out what was going on, they did not want to

00:34:30 ►

have me there because at that time it became the evil drug and so when the administration

00:34:34 ►

recognized that that’s what we’ve been using they were terrified

00:34:41 ►

we had made a record of every session for every child and i think we did something like 83 sessions

00:34:46 ►

and so we had complete notes from every session that was in the child’s chart.

00:34:49 ►

They had taken all those out and burned them.

00:34:52 ►

And denied that it ever happened.

00:34:56 ►

So, because they were just, you know, terrified.

00:34:59 ►

What were the results?

00:35:01 ►

Tell about the results a little bit.

00:35:03 ►

Are their names still recorded?

00:35:06 ►

Or did you use that too?

00:35:07 ►

Well, yes.

00:35:08 ►

I know their names.

00:35:10 ►

Okay.

00:35:11 ►

What were the results?

00:35:12 ►

What were some of the things?

00:35:14 ►

Well,

00:35:15 ►

what was so remarkable

00:35:20 ►

was that,

00:35:21 ►

now I should tell you a little bit

00:35:23 ►

how sick these kids were.

00:35:25 ►

They were in a back ward in the hospital. They did not relate to each other. Many of

00:35:32 ►

them were in camisoles 24 hours a day, tied up because they were violent. Most of them

00:35:40 ►

didn’t communicate. Many of them just did the whirling and bumping into themselves and other people.

00:35:47 ►

The place was pandemonium.

00:35:49 ►

It was like cartoons of, like, Bedlam from the Middle Ages.

00:35:53 ►

It was just trying to keep the place clean, as all the staff could do.

00:35:58 ►

There wasn’t really any treatment for them.

00:36:00 ►

You know, this was in the very early…

00:36:02 ►

This was the late 50s, so there weren’t any other medications available either.

00:36:09 ►

The first patient that we did, the psychiatrist, I said, who should we start with? He said,

00:36:18 ►

well, Nancy, she’s dying, so why don’t you start with her? Because if she dies, you know, there won’t be any loss

00:36:25 ►

because she’s dying anyway. She had what was merosmous, where she couldn’t, where she was so

00:36:33 ►

withdrawn that even if they injected her with nutrients, her body wouldn’t absorb them. She

00:36:41 ►

would slough off anything. And she was a skin and bones she weighed you know like 40 pounds or something and she was black and blue she

00:36:50 ►

looked like a skeleton and she was she was 11 and she was tied down 24 hours a

00:36:57 ►

day if she was let loose she would tear her eyeballs out or gnash herself.

00:37:05 ►

That was our first patient.

00:37:08 ►

I’m like, oh, god.

00:37:11 ►

So I thought, well, I was always a risk taker.

00:37:21 ►

So I gave them the sameage that we were giving adults.

00:37:26 ►

I didn’t give them any less.

00:37:29 ►

We were using 500 mics left on them.

00:37:36 ►

Because the idea was, you know, you have to use enough to get the jet propulsion going so that they don’t get into conflicts.

00:37:39 ►

They don’t have any control over stopping it.

00:37:42 ►

They don’t have any control over stopping it.

00:37:50 ►

And so she started feeling the effects of it after about 20, 25 minutes.

00:37:50 ►

We did it IM.

00:37:56 ►

And so she started groaning and howling.

00:38:00 ►

And we had a room set up where we did all our sessions. It was actually the visitor’s room that we used for sessions.

00:38:04 ►

And she started howling. It was like the visitors’ room that we used for sessions. And she started

00:38:06 ►

howling. It was like an animal that was wounded. And howled and howled and howled. It was treacherous

00:38:15 ►

to listen to her. We would hold her, do everything under the sun, nothing. And so finally, after

00:38:21 ►

about six hours, my frustration, I took her and looked at her and just screamed at her,

00:38:26 ►

Nancy, how fucking long are you going to scream and moan like this? I can’t take it anymore.

00:38:34 ►

And she stopped and looked at me, and she had a lisp, and she said, Gowie, I have a long way to go, so just leave me the hell alone.

00:38:43 ►

I have a long way to go, so just leave me to hell alone.”

00:38:50 ►

She went back to howling again. That’s the first communication she had ever made with anybody.

00:38:57 ►

And from then on, boy, what a trip we had with her, because she was so bright,

00:39:07 ►

and she was a challenge. But, you know, after a number of sessions, she was having experiences like all the sucks they would have.

00:39:21 ►

You know, like it was one day we were going down and she said, well, the kids all knew when we were going to have a session.

00:39:29 ►

All the kids that were in the project all wanted to be their turn. They didn’t want to wait. So she was bustling down there and getting in there. So one of the other kids was trying to get in. She said, you don’t

00:39:37 ►

belong in this room. This is where we get to see God. They would verbalize, they would verbalize completely.

00:39:46 ►

And they would talk about, you know, we’re all one and God is love and you know, all

00:39:51 ►

this stuff that people talk about.

00:39:53 ►

And these were kids, you know, young, young kids who had never been functional in their

00:39:59 ►

life.

00:40:00 ►

So it was amazing.

00:40:01 ►

They had the same results that anybody else did.

00:40:08 ►

Because they would go back, you know, you go here, here, and then you come back.

00:40:13 ►

We did as many as, I think, as many as like 19 or 21 sessions or something like that.

00:40:20 ►

Gary, can you tell a story about the girl that you had to tell that was being shut down

00:40:24 ►

by the government?

00:40:25 ►

Oh, yeah.

00:40:26 ►

Oh, that was awful.

00:40:27 ►

She was an amazing gal.

00:40:30 ►

I just adored her.

00:40:35 ►

She was about fourteen.

00:40:41 ►

She was crippled and she was blind. Her skin was all diseased.

00:40:48 ►

She was a twirler.

00:40:51 ►

All she would do was twirl all day long and bang into things.

00:40:55 ►

She would sort of warble as she twirled.

00:40:59 ►

She was always black and blue.

00:41:00 ►

Every once in a while, she would have to be timed out for a while

00:41:04 ►

because she would be so be tied down for a while because she

00:41:05 ►

would be so self-destructive. She had the most awesome experiences that I’ve ever sat

00:41:12 ►

with of anybody. I mean, she was amazing. I’ll always remember her hands because when

00:41:18 ►

she would break through into transcendental consciousness, for lack of a better word,

00:41:28 ►

her hands became healing hands.

00:41:31 ►

And I loved to just sit there and have her touch me.

00:41:34 ►

It was just awesome to feel her.

00:41:39 ►

And all the sitters wanted to be in our patio sessions because we got so much out of it.

00:41:43 ►

And she would touch us.

00:41:45 ►

She was wonderful. And she would touch us. She was wonderful.

00:41:47 ►

And she became very functional.

00:41:49 ►

She stopped all the twirling.

00:41:51 ►

She talked coherently.

00:41:53 ►

She would help other kids on the ward.

00:41:55 ►

She would try to help them.

00:41:56 ►

And she was blind.

00:41:58 ►

But she became a real caretaker on the ward.

00:42:01 ►

Well, finally, when we couldn’t do the sessions anymore, I had

00:42:07 ►

to tell all these kids. So I had to tell her, and so she listened, and she said, well, do

00:42:16 ►

you know who has LSD? And I said, yes. She said, well, what’s his name? And I told her,

00:42:23 ►

and where does he live? Well, well I said he lives in San Francisco

00:42:26 ►

he’s the rep for

00:42:27 ►

Sandoz we don’t all are LSD

00:42:30 ►

straight from Sandoz

00:42:31 ►

and she said well

00:42:33 ►

I have an idea

00:42:35 ►

that just might work

00:42:37 ►

you go up

00:42:40 ►

and find him

00:42:41 ►

and you tell him

00:42:43 ►

that you’re there with a message

00:42:46 ►

from Patty Simpson

00:42:47 ►

and Patty Simpson says

00:42:49 ►

please give Gary some

00:42:52 ►

LSD because Patty Simpson

00:42:53 ►

really needs it.

00:42:55 ►

Oh, God.

00:42:59 ►

I mean,

00:43:00 ►

just remembering that

00:43:01 ►

throws chills

00:43:04 ►

at my spine

00:43:05 ►

because how do you tell kids that the government is fucked?

00:43:10 ►

You know, they’re crazy.

00:43:14 ►

You know, any of those government people

00:43:15 ►

could come and talk with these kids.

00:43:21 ►

This is a question for both of you.

00:43:24 ►

I’m curious what commonalities you found in people’s

00:43:28 ►

experiences since you got to work with so many people. Are there any things that you

00:43:33 ►

would consider really universal or highly common or versus uncommon experiences that

00:43:41 ►

people have had?

00:43:42 ►

Well, that’s a pretty complex question, but the first thing that flashed in my mind,

00:43:49 ►

when we had people come in for a session, we told them that they’d be listening to music part of the time,

00:43:58 ►

and they could bring in some of their favorite music.

00:44:01 ►

And there are an awful lot of people that said that brought in only

00:44:05 ►

popular music and they didn’t care to listen to classical music but when they

00:44:12 ►

got into the session we’ve asked we’ve asked their permission if we couldn’t

00:44:15 ►

put a piece of classical music on and the results were that not that every

00:44:23 ►

single one who objected to classical music

00:44:26 ►

after they heard it under LSD,

00:44:29 ►

that became their favorite music.

00:44:34 ►

I have to tell you a cute story about that.

00:44:38 ►

None of this is true, by the way.

00:44:44 ►

I was at friends in my house and they had had some mushrooms and they had a

00:44:53 ►

one of these big dogs like a Newfoundlander but what’s another really big dog?

00:45:02 ►

St. Bernard?

00:45:04 ►

No.

00:45:04 ►

St. Bernard? Yeah, St. Bernard. No. St. Bernard?

00:45:05 ►

Yeah, St. Bernard.

00:45:07 ►

And you know what they’re like.

00:45:09 ►

And so he came in,

00:45:10 ►

and someone had left some of the mushrooms on the table.

00:45:15 ►

Of course, he ate them.

00:45:17 ►

So we’re all sitting around, you know, wondering,

00:45:20 ►

like, what the hell is that?

00:45:23 ►

We didn’t know any antidotes for it.

00:45:26 ►

And so he looked a little groggy after a while,

00:45:29 ►

and he went and laid down in front of the stereo.

00:45:35 ►

DeHoriot’s New World Symphony was playing.

00:45:40 ►

Every time after that, in other days,

00:45:44 ►

he would go up to the speakers and wag his tail and bark.

00:45:49 ►

He wanted to listen to the New York Times.

00:45:55 ►

So, you know, that wasn’t a controlled substance.

00:45:57 ►

It was called a spirit without a heart.

00:46:02 ►

You know, these little funny incidents that happen.

00:46:07 ►

Did you play it for him or did it bring it back for him? That’s funny.

00:46:09 ►

You know, like, you listen to music that you’ve had exquisite experiences. You listen to music and, boy, you know.

00:46:18 ►

It takes you to the same place. Yeah, music was an amazing, potent thing that we used all the time.

00:46:29 ►

What was interesting, too, was that I usually had at least three sitters,

00:46:36 ►

sometimes four sitters if the guy was really big,

00:46:38 ►

sometimes six sitters.

00:46:44 ►

and sometimes when people would get into a fear state,

00:46:53 ►

they could be combative

00:46:55 ►

and so you have to sit on them.

00:46:57 ►

And,

00:46:58 ►

oh, where did I go with that one?

00:47:25 ►

Mmm. Oh, where did I go with that one? Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm We had a guy, he was an officer in the Army,

00:47:29 ►

and they’d sent him to Stanford University for some testing,

00:47:33 ►

and somehow or other he heard about us and he wanted to go through our program, so he did.

00:47:37 ►

So he was in the room there.

00:47:43 ►

We always have a male and a female sitting with the person,

00:47:46 ►

and sometimes maybe the doctor will go in too once in a while

00:47:47 ►

but

00:47:49 ►

we had

00:47:51 ►

outside the session we had a little kitchen

00:47:54 ►

where we prepared stuff and I was in there

00:47:55 ►

doing something or other and they came

00:47:58 ►

bashing in and they said

00:47:59 ►

oh this guy’s name was Joel

00:48:01 ►

I said Joel he’s getting out of hand

00:48:03 ►

he wants to leave

00:48:04 ►

so I get out in the hallway

00:48:08 ►

and here he comes this great big guy

00:48:09 ►

he’s about a good foot

00:48:11 ►

or maybe two feet higher than me

00:48:13 ►

and he comes

00:48:15 ►

marching out and I said

00:48:17 ►

get back in there

00:48:19 ►

and much to my

00:48:21 ►

amazement

00:48:22 ►

I just turned around I must try and make them.

00:48:31 ►

I recovered it.

00:48:34 ►

If we were sitting in a session and nobody’s saying anything,

00:48:36 ►

but you follow where they are

00:48:39 ►

because you get out of your own ego state

00:48:41 ►

and you join the person

00:48:44 ►

who’s taking the acid

00:48:46 ►

and you go with them all the time so that you know where the hell they are

00:48:49 ►

so when they get in a tight space you know it.

00:48:52 ►

They can be totally silent if you still know it.

00:48:55 ►

I would get up to go and to change the record to something else

00:48:59 ►

that would get the guy out of where he was stuck.

00:49:04 ►

Often, three of us would get up at the same time.

00:49:06 ►

We’d all look at each other and one would go over and pick up an album cover and show

00:49:10 ►

it and the other two would say, yeah. So all three of us were tracking exactly the same

00:49:14 ►

moment to know what music we should change to get him out of that spot. Really interesting.

00:49:20 ►

But the question you asked I think also, also is kind of difficult, because people are very,

00:49:29 ►

very different.

00:49:30 ►

They come with different problems.

00:49:32 ►

And then, of course, as time went on, and Larry began to get people scared, it got harder

00:49:41 ►

and harder to get clients coming.

00:49:44 ►

It got harder and harder to get clients coming.

00:49:50 ►

And so we really saw quite a spectrum of things.

00:49:55 ►

And, of course, what you’re always looking for is a person who makes a real breakthrough.

00:49:59 ►

And if you do make a breakthrough, you know, you’re getting to common ground.

00:50:06 ►

That other place, as Walter King likes to call it, that other place, that’s a phenomenal place,

00:50:07 ►

and it’s wonderful to all be there.

00:50:11 ►

But not everybody can get there, especially the first time. So there’s a lot of differences.

00:50:14 ►

Yeah, in my experience, the transcendental experience

00:50:18 ►

is absolutely the same for everybody.

00:50:22 ►

Like when you have a complete and total ego death, then everyone has the same experience. It’s the same for everybody. Like when you have a complete and total ego death, then everyone

00:50:26 ►

has the same experience. It’s the same thing.

00:50:29 ►

Can you describe that?

00:50:32 ►

Two.

00:50:34 ►

Yeah, describe ego death.

00:50:37 ►

It’s lovely to have one every morning.

00:50:47 ►

They have one every morning. A moment ago you were mentioning about tracking with a person and you kind of recognized what they’re doing.

00:50:53 ►

Did you have any experiences where you found that one person would think something and the other person would take the same thing? I mean, what would be called psychic experiences?

00:51:06 ►

You know what I’m saying?

00:51:07 ►

Like thought transference or the same.

00:51:12 ►

When you…

00:51:14 ►

Say there are three sitters

00:51:16 ►

and everybody’s focused on the person who’s taking the drug,

00:51:20 ►

then all four of you have the same consciousness all the time.

00:51:23 ►

then all four of you have the same consciousness all the time.

00:51:31 ►

Because you’ve left your own ego.

00:51:35 ►

And in order to do that,

00:51:39 ►

you have to have a lot of acid experiences yourself so that you’re not afraid of that.

00:51:44 ►

To really absolutely not exist.

00:51:49 ►

Now, there is some kind of monitoring

00:51:53 ►

that’s going around that you’re not aware of.

00:51:57 ►

For instance, because then you get up

00:51:59 ►

and go change the record.

00:52:01 ►

So there’s got to be some kind of consciousness

00:52:03 ►

that’s monitoring things to guide you

00:52:06 ►

in what to do to help that person.

00:52:09 ►

Or sometimes it’s just going and taking the person’s hand

00:52:12 ►

and holding them.

00:52:15 ►

But it would always be the same.

00:52:17 ►

Everybody would have the same response

00:52:19 ►

to what the person needed at that time.

00:52:22 ►

And uh.

00:52:36 ►

at that time. And one time we were sitting in the group and I thought I had to go pee. So I got up and came back and sat down. I still had to pee. So I said, somebody in here has got a full bladder.

00:52:52 ►

So nobody would opt to it,

00:52:54 ►

because I don’t think they’re into their bladder at the moment.

00:52:55 ►

My eye was.

00:52:58 ►

And so I made each one go, and about the third person, I said, ah, yeah, that’s good.

00:53:02 ►

I think that’s psychic.

00:53:04 ►

I think so.

00:53:03 ►

I think that’s psychic.

00:53:04 ►

I think so.

00:53:13 ►

Whatever we came with, Al Humberg.

00:53:14 ►

I was going to ask the same question.

00:53:17 ►

It’s working.

00:53:18 ►

It’s working.

00:53:19 ►

What did you take in?

00:53:23 ►

Did you ever get any legal trouble?

00:53:25 ►

And how did he end up?

00:53:27 ►

Or is he in hiding?

00:53:28 ►

Well, let’s see.

00:53:30 ►

This is going to take a long time.

00:53:33 ►

Talking about legal trouble.

00:53:37 ►

Well, he did a lot of different things.

00:53:40 ►

One of the things… He’s a rascal.

00:53:41 ►

One of the things he did

00:53:42 ►

that he set up radio contact with ships

00:53:47 ►

that were coming in and bringing whiskey in

00:53:50 ►

and arranging to put it on shore for him

00:53:54 ►

and he would dispose of it.

00:53:57 ►

Unfortunately, they caught him

00:53:58 ►

and he was in jail for 18 months.

00:54:03 ►

So that’s one side.

00:54:06 ►

On the other side,

00:54:07 ►

later on during the war,

00:54:09 ►

he was very helpful to the government

00:54:10 ►

and helped in a lot of different ways.

00:54:16 ►

Ask your question again.

00:54:18 ►

There’s something else I’m not getting at.

00:54:19 ►

How did he end up?

00:54:20 ►

Is he still alive?

00:54:22 ►

Oh, yes.

00:54:24 ►

He died in 1982. He was 81 years old. And actually, the

00:54:31 ►

later years of his life were really pretty bad, because he made a lot of friends. He

00:54:38 ►

introduced people to these things, and you can hear from what’s being said, the openings

00:54:44 ►

that people got, they just

00:54:45 ►

absolutely loved him, he was a great storyteller, he was full of fun, but then at a certain

00:54:53 ►

time, something happened to him, I think I was with him when it happened, but he had

00:54:59 ►

gone to Hawaii, he had met a very wealthy woman, and he’d given her LSD, and she had agreed, she

00:55:09 ►

says, to loan him $100,000. So he thought everything was behind him, that God was behind

00:55:17 ►

him, that everything was working, and he could do what he pleased. And as a matter of fact,

00:55:21 ►

I think he moved into a state of inflation, and he began to

00:55:25 ►

really lose it.

00:55:26 ►

Some of the kindness and considerateness of others, and trying to set up things to be

00:55:33 ►

more important.

00:55:34 ►

He made connections with Teledyne and high people there, and he made connections with

00:55:40 ►

the government, and they were going to try to convince the government to take over programs

00:55:44 ►

and so on. And none of this stuff worked. And one of the things he thought that

00:55:50 ►

he could do, as a matter of fact, sometimes he would, it was a favorite thing to drive

00:55:57 ►

people to Death Valley under the influence of LSD, and that’s a marvelous trip. I highly

00:56:02 ►

recommend it. And then what he would do is from there he would take people to Las Vegas and gamble.

00:56:09 ►

And he felt that under LSD he knew where to put the chips and so on.

00:56:17 ►

And actually for a while he did pretty well.

00:56:20 ►

But I think he got greedy and after a while he started losing.

00:56:25 ►

And he began getting behind in money,

00:56:28 ►

and he was still clever enough to get quite a bit out of me

00:56:32 ►

because I hadn’t waked up enough yet to see what he was doing.

00:56:36 ►

But he really chipped me out quite a bit over a period of time,

00:56:41 ►

and then he would get mad at people.

00:56:48 ►

The last end life was not good.

00:56:57 ►

I teased Myron mercilessly. I said, well, what he was trying to do, Myron, is wake you up.

00:56:58 ►

Boy, did he.

00:56:59 ►

Because in Zen it says the devil is in the employ of God. And he was the devil.

00:57:06 ►

And he played, he had all these roles.

00:57:12 ►

And Myron talked about this.

00:57:14 ►

I was just cracking in hysterics

00:57:16 ►

because Myron was offended

00:57:18 ►

that he manipulated him and took advantage of him.

00:57:23 ►

And I thought it was hilarious.

00:57:26 ►

See, my buddy, I have a real close buddy

00:57:29 ►

that was a very close disciple of Hubbard,

00:57:31 ►

and they were close,

00:57:33 ►

but he didn’t have my neurotic tendencies.

00:57:36 ►

So he really learned an awful lot with LSD.

00:57:39 ►

So Al would come,

00:57:41 ►

and he’d start telling one of these stories.

00:57:42 ►

There’s a guy here, if we can do this.

00:57:44 ►

And he’d pull out his wand and say,

00:57:45 ►

Okay, Hubbard, what do you want?

00:57:48 ►

Take what you want.

00:57:49 ►

So he knew, but I was bitter.

00:57:56 ►

Oh, he wanted him.

00:57:57 ►

You know, when you want people to be just one thing,

00:58:01 ►

they bite you in the ass.

00:58:12 ►

Did you ever do any work with John Lilly or did he fit into this circle of… Well, I didn’t. I knew people that were close to him, but I didn’t.

00:58:19 ►

No, I did not either. I knew of him, I had met him, and I guess he was pretty decimated by the work that he was

00:58:30 ►

doing with dolphins, you know, in Florida.

00:58:33 ►

And he released them all because, as you might remember, they were all trying to commit suicide

00:58:39 ►

because they were so unhappy.

00:58:41 ►

And I had an experience of that too in Waimanalo in Hawaii.

00:58:45 ►

They were doing interspecies communication. Gregory Bateson, I don’t know if anybody knows Gregory Bateson.

00:58:50 ►

Yes.

00:58:51 ►

And he was married to Margaret Mead. And they were doing that too. And I went over and actually

00:58:59 ►

got in the tanks with some of the killer whales. and they were trying to commit suicide and very depressed

00:59:05 ►

and had some species communication with them and they said if they had to live this way they’d

00:59:13 ►

rather be dead and so they started releasing i was going to say their guys who were unhappy

00:59:20 ►

with dolphins that were unhappy they left them out too. I was also referring to,

00:59:25 ►

you know,

00:59:26 ►

he was doing the Samadhi tanks,

00:59:28 ►

taking LSD

00:59:29 ►

and going into the

00:59:30 ►

sensory deprivation tanks.

00:59:33 ►

Speak louder.

00:59:35 ►

John Lilley was doing research

00:59:37 ►

on himself.

00:59:38 ►

Yes.

00:59:38 ►

Shooting LSD

00:59:40 ►

and then going into

00:59:41 ►

a sensory deprivation tank.

00:59:45 ►

Well, the sort of general notion that most people have

00:59:53 ►

is that he got in very unusual states

01:00:00 ►

and could not transition.

01:00:03 ►

That he got pretty dysfunctional. Did he die, Myron?

01:00:09 ►

Oh yes, he died a few years ago.

01:00:12 ►

He’s been here. He’s been a guest here. John Lillewa has been a guest at this gathering.

01:00:19 ►

The last time I saw him was at Oz’s place that we heard about the jam.

01:00:28 ►

I’m curious as to when you lost the Alice Deepener study and what

01:00:32 ►

happened to the kids afterwards. Did they hold

01:00:35 ►

the improvements that they’d made

01:00:38 ►

in their lives from autistic children?

01:00:43 ►

Do you know what happened to the children?

01:00:45 ►

No, not all of them,

01:00:47 ►

because when I went back,

01:00:52 ►

you know, there was persona non grata.

01:00:55 ►

So it was very difficult for me to get any information.

01:00:58 ►

I know that before I left,

01:01:00 ►

two of the kids had been discharged to their home

01:01:04 ►

and were going to public school.

01:01:07 ►

There was a school within the hospital and some of them were attending that school. One

01:01:17 ►

of the problems was that many of the parents of these kids were very, very disturbed people. It’s very hard to place children who

01:01:28 ►

have that kind of history. So we were just absolutely devastated about what to do. Our

01:01:39 ►

first response was, well, we’re going to adopt them all and take them home. Well, some of us were married and had three kids at home already, and sometimes the lives weren’t that

01:01:50 ►

open to having a house full of schizophrenic children. At that point, they were more sane

01:01:59 ►

than my own kids, probably. It was awful. It was a terrible, awful experience,

01:02:08 ►

losing contact with them.

01:02:10 ►

But at that point, you say they were functioning?

01:02:13 ►

Yes, many.

01:02:15 ►

We started with, gee, I think we started with 12.

01:02:19 ►

And we just couldn’t handle 12.

01:02:23 ►

And I think then we did intensive work

01:02:27 ►

with six to eight of them.

01:02:28 ►

And they all really had remarkable recoveries.

01:02:34 ►

All improved, or two of them?

01:02:37 ►

That means a step.

01:02:38 ►

They all improved?

01:02:40 ►

No.

01:02:53 ►

No. Some of the… We had one kid, she was like three years old, and she never taught.

01:03:02 ►

And she… During sessions, we never got any feedback from her. But she was always very isolated, always couldn’t stand to be touched.

01:03:07 ►

And of course during sessions we would always be touching them, constantly touching them. And

01:03:14 ►

so after about three sessions that she had, whenever any of the LSD staff would come on

01:03:23 ►

to work, she would run to us and touch us and want to touch us

01:03:27 ►

and hold hands with us all the time.

01:03:30 ►

So we knew, although she had no speech,

01:03:33 ►

she had never learned to talk.

01:03:35 ►

We knew that something had happened

01:03:38 ►

because she was always wanting just to be touched all the time.

01:03:43 ►

But she was very young and we don’t know what kind of brain damage she might have had.

01:03:50 ►

But we didn’t have any kids that didn’t have an obvious change. That was the least change that any of them showed.

01:04:07 ►

Did Figures know statistics saying that we had a 100% improvement rate?

01:04:12 ►

Did you show any of your statistics to any government officials?

01:04:18 ►

Well, let me answer that. Did everybody hear the question?

01:04:23 ►

Let me answer that question with,

01:04:27 ►

it happens to be a true story this time.

01:04:30 ►

I was doing work at Cedars, oh, god,

01:04:34 ►

I almost said Cedar with Levin on, I guess I won’t,

01:04:37 ►

with terminal cancer patients.

01:04:41 ►

And the head of oncology there got a hold of the head of psychiatry and said,

01:04:48 ►

Is there any way that we can help people with intractable pain?

01:04:54 ►

Because we’ve tried all the medications in the world and these people are still having terrible pain.

01:04:59 ►

So this fellow knew that I had done quite a bit of work with LSD.

01:05:03 ►

This was still early in

01:05:05 ►

the game. And so he said, would you be willing to see these people? And I was willing to

01:05:12 ►

take anybody on, you know, just give me some people to work with. And so the first patient

01:05:19 ►

was one of their worst patients. She was very neurotic, very unhappy, terrible attitude, and had pain all

01:05:26 ►

the time. And she had advanced cancer. So she had one of the most remarkable experiences

01:05:33 ►

I’ve ever seen. Just had a complete breakthrough. And her whole personality changed. She did

01:05:42 ►

a lot of work after that with her family and so forth.

01:05:45 ►

But the next day I went to see her and I said, well, like we talked about it, I said, well,

01:05:50 ►

how is your pain?

01:05:51 ►

She said, I don’t have any pain.

01:05:54 ►

And I said, wonderful.

01:05:57 ►

She says, do you have any idea like how long it’s going to be?

01:06:00 ►

I said, I don’t have a clue.

01:06:01 ►

You’re the first one we’ve done. And so then the oncologist came in

01:06:07 ►

and said to her,

01:06:10 ►

well, how are you and so forth.

01:06:11 ►

And she said,

01:06:12 ►

no, he came in because she had refused

01:06:15 ►

her pain medication.

01:06:17 ►

She told the nurse,

01:06:18 ►

I’m not going to take pain medication

01:06:19 ►

if I don’t need it.

01:06:21 ►

It makes me constipated.

01:06:22 ►

It makes me, you know,

01:06:23 ►

I’ve set stomach.

01:06:24 ►

I’m not going to take it.

01:06:25 ►

So he came in and said,

01:06:27 ►

why are you not taking your pain medication?

01:06:31 ►

And she said,

01:06:32 ►

well, because I don’t have any pain.

01:06:35 ►

He said, you’re having pain.

01:06:37 ►

Don’t lie to me.

01:06:39 ►

You’re lying.

01:06:40 ►

She says, no, I don’t have pain.

01:06:41 ►

He said, I’ll go get the x-rays

01:06:43 ►

and show you x-rays

01:06:44 ►

where you have to be having pain.

01:06:47 ►

And she basically told him that he knew where he could shove his x-rays.

01:06:51 ►

So he discharged her and she fired him at the same time.

01:06:55 ►

So it was a mutual.

01:06:57 ►

And so he called the head of psychiatry and said,

01:07:00 ►

I don’t want Dr. Fisher treating any more of my patients because he makes them psychotic.

01:07:06 ►

And he said, well, what do you mean they make them psychotic?

01:07:08 ►

Well, this woman who is full of cancer

01:07:11 ►

now thinks she doesn’t have any pain.

01:07:14 ►

So, you know, she’s psychotic.

01:07:17 ►

And so the guy said, well, would you rather have them psychotic

01:07:22 ►

and not have pain, or would you rather have them normal and have pain? He, or would you rather have them normal and have pain?

01:07:25 ►

He said, I’d rather have them normal and have pain.

01:07:28 ►

So, you know, talk about statistics for the establishment.

01:07:32 ►

Forget it.

01:07:34 ►

That’s an awful story.

01:07:35 ►

Once you get fired, he wanted to keep his patients.

01:07:38 ►

Well, what happens, you know,

01:07:39 ►

what happens is that how can they deal with that reality?

01:07:44 ►

You know, if you don’t understand something,

01:07:46 ►

you say the person is psychotic.

01:07:48 ►

I mean, that’s what psychosis means in our culture.

01:07:50 ►

Somebody’s crazy if you don’t understand them.

01:07:53 ►

I mean, everybody uses the word crazy to say,

01:07:55 ►

I don’t understand this person. They’re crazy.

01:07:59 ►

He couldn’t deal with the phenomenon

01:08:03 ►

that he knew that she had pain

01:08:06 ►

and why wasn’t she having pain.

01:08:08 ►

His solution was, she’s psychotic.

01:08:11 ►

That’s the total natural conclusion he would come to.

01:08:14 ►

He didn’t come and say,

01:08:16 ►

what the hell are you doing with these people

01:08:17 ►

that you’re getting rid of their pain?

01:08:19 ►

Tell me about it.

01:08:19 ►

Let’s do 20 of them.

01:08:21 ►

No.

01:08:23 ►

He had to maintain his notion of reality.

01:08:26 ►

And we saw that over and over and over.

01:08:29 ►

Well, you should have given him LSD.

01:08:31 ►

Yeah.

01:08:41 ►

You don’t understand.

01:08:46 ►

You’ve got to try to see what’s going on.

01:08:50 ►

Yeah.

01:08:51 ►

I don’t know if you can answer this question,

01:08:53 ►

but can you theorize or describe

01:08:56 ►

the physiological reason that LSD

01:08:59 ►

would alleviate such severe pain in somebody?

01:09:04 ►

Like, what’s a mechanism by which a

01:09:07 ►

psychedelic can can create that miracle really? Because you know a lot of people

01:09:14 ►

are in a lot of pain. It would be nice to have an out.

01:09:25 ►

Yes, I do know how you do it.

01:09:29 ►

Because I experimented with myself.

01:09:37 ►

And all of the things that are going on neurophysiologically continue to go on.

01:09:40 ►

What you cease to do is to respond to it.

01:09:44 ►

And what you do is focus on the sensation.

01:09:50 ►

And by focusing on it and totally embracing it,

01:09:54 ►

you neutralize it.

01:09:55 ►

You neutralize it and it becomes just sensation.

01:09:59 ►

It’s like white light.

01:10:00 ►

It has no positive or negative available to it.

01:10:06 ►

And I experimented that with myself

01:10:08 ►

by getting centered

01:10:12 ►

and then going this way with pain

01:10:15 ►

and this way with pain

01:10:16 ►

and this way with pain

01:10:17 ►

and this way with pain

01:10:18 ►

until I got to the bottom.

01:10:20 ►

And then finally you get to the point

01:10:22 ►

where it’s so intense

01:10:24 ►

that you either tear your hair out or accept the pain.

01:10:28 ►

You embrace it.

01:10:29 ►

It becomes neutral.

01:10:30 ►

It becomes a sensation.

01:10:33 ►

But to do that, to have that capacity,

01:10:38 ►

obviously you need to be in an altered state of consciousness.

01:10:43 ►

And after you’ve had a whopping dose of acid,

01:10:47 ►

that stays with you for…

01:10:50 ►

Well, the first time I had acid,

01:10:51 ►

I was in that state for eight months.

01:10:54 ►

I didn’t come down for eight months.

01:10:55 ►

Wow.

01:10:57 ►

I didn’t sleep for eight months.

01:10:59 ►

I had no need for sleep.

01:11:03 ►

But then I started getting back to ordinary reality with that shot.

01:11:13 ►

And you can teach people under those states.

01:11:17 ►

You can tell them how that works.

01:11:20 ►

that works.

01:11:27 ►

Well, maybe everybody’s had enough of it.

01:11:29 ►

No, we’re just thinking

01:11:31 ►

of funny stories.

01:11:33 ►

Yeah, funny stories. What’s the funniest story that you can think of

01:11:35 ►

that happened?

01:11:37 ►

Didn’t Captain Al get his acid?

01:11:39 ►

Didn’t he have some kind of government source or something?

01:11:42 ►

Who did you ask?

01:11:43 ►

Captain Al.

01:11:44 ►

Oh, Captain Al. Al was very good at making connections with people.

01:11:50 ►

Like Harry Althaus was the Sandoz person in San Francisco.

01:11:56 ►

Oh, yes.

01:11:56 ►

And he, Hubbard just knows how to seduce people.

01:12:00 ►

He and Althaus became very good friends,

01:12:04 ►

and he was able to get LSD.

01:12:07 ►

And then he’d make friends in Canada

01:12:11 ►

with people in important positions,

01:12:13 ►

and they would get it.

01:12:15 ►

And then he made a connection with Czechoslovakia

01:12:19 ►

and got LSD from Czechoslovakia.

01:12:22 ►

So he was a great friend indeed.

01:12:24 ►

Where can we get some?

01:12:37 ►

I’ll tell you a hilarious story.

01:12:40 ►

When we

01:12:42 ►

finished, we

01:12:43 ►

had access to Sandoz LSD in Switzerland.

01:12:49 ►

And so a bunch of us got together.

01:12:50 ►

There were about ten of us in the project.

01:12:53 ►

And we all got our money together.

01:12:56 ►

And I don’t remember why this guy went to Vancouver.

01:13:00 ►

Anyway, he went to Vancouver, flew from Vancouver to London,

01:13:04 ►

from London to Frankfurt. Somebody in Frankfurt went to Switzerland and got the acid because

01:13:10 ►

it was like under the table sale. And we got a lot of it. And so then went back to

01:13:18 ►

Frankfurt, London, Vancouver, came across the border in a car and so forth, got to L.A.

01:13:24 ►

Vancouver, came across the border in a car and so forth, got to L.A.

01:13:27 ►

At that time, I was working in Hawaii.

01:13:31 ►

So my portion they sent to me, and they put it in,

01:13:34 ►

they said we put it in shaving cream.

01:13:39 ►

And so that’s how it’s packaged. So I got it, and I opened it up, and there’s all this shaving cream.

01:13:43 ►

Well, I… You mean the actual liquid was and there’s all this shaving thing. Well, I…

01:13:45 ►

You mean the actual liquid was mixed in the shaving?

01:13:48 ►

No.

01:13:54 ►

Good idea.

01:13:58 ►

I go to the annual, so I took it all.

01:14:02 ►

I was living in an old abandoned hospital at the time I was working for Peace Corps.

01:14:07 ►

And so all this stuff, I thought, well, I’ll just go.

01:14:10 ►

I thought the shaving cream, you know, was the cushion for it.

01:14:15 ►

So I took it and dumped it all in the toilet, flushed the toilet.

01:14:19 ►

And it was all in the bottom. I dumped the whole, all my shaving cream.

01:14:22 ►

Oh, my God.

01:14:23 ►

And I realized that

01:14:25 ►

I was hysterical for a week

01:14:27 ►

what a cosmic

01:14:29 ►

joke

01:14:30 ►

what a cosmic joke

01:14:32 ►

so I find that, well

01:14:35 ►

okay, it’s meditation time now

01:14:37 ►

you know

01:14:38 ►

somebody’s really happy in that sewage chamber

01:14:48 ►

heavy fish

01:14:51 ►

new species

01:14:54 ►

of fish

01:14:55 ►

well I want to thank you two guys

01:15:00 ►

for coming out

01:15:01 ►

do we have to end?

01:15:04 ►

I don’t know it’s up to you guys how coming out. Do we have to end it? I don’t know.

01:15:06 ►

It’s up to you guys how long you want to stay here.

01:15:08 ►

I promised Gary I wouldn’t keep him out too late tonight.

01:15:11 ►

I still want to get a few more things out of him,

01:15:14 ►

so it kind of holds in my words.

01:15:19 ►

Are you up for any more questions?

01:15:20 ►

Maybe nobody has any more.

01:15:22 ►

I’m fascinated with the results you were getting.

01:15:27 ►

Could you talk a little bit about your medical past?

01:15:30 ►

You were working in a clinical setting, and I’m studying medicine, so that’s why I’m asking.

01:15:36 ►

I’m fascinated with what you do.

01:15:39 ►

So what, are you a doctor?

01:15:41 ►

I’m a psychologist.

01:15:49 ►

And yes, the hospital we work with with the children was a hospital.

01:15:52 ►

And the guy who was medically responsible was a psychiatrist.

01:15:56 ►

He would never take it.

01:15:59 ►

He didn’t.

01:16:02 ►

He just said that he wasn’t ready for it.

01:16:05 ►

But he was wonderfully supportive.

01:16:09 ►

He used to come and sit in on the sessions.

01:16:12 ►

And he was just amazed at it all.

01:16:13 ►

So he was a wonderful guy.

01:16:17 ►

And then the other LSD work I did, well, at Cedars,

01:16:21 ►

I did work there with it.

01:16:23 ►

And then most of all the other places.

01:16:27 ►

Well, I also did work in London with it

01:16:30 ►

with a friend of mine who was a psychiatrist.

01:16:34 ►

And then in Holland as well.

01:16:38 ►

Well, Charlie,

01:16:41 ►

should I tell him the story about the guy

01:16:42 ►

that took the acid and nothing happened?

01:16:46 ►

Sure. Did he talk about the guy that took the acid and nothing happened? Sure.

01:16:47 ►

Did he talk about the same youngster?

01:16:50 ►

Oh, that is a fabulous story.

01:16:54 ►

Well, this was the world’s, he considered himself the world’s most difficult psychiatric patient.

01:17:03 ►

And he was probably in his mid-20s. And he had been at

01:17:07 ►

Menninger Institute. He had been at Austin Riggs. All the big top-notch psychiatric facilities in

01:17:14 ►

the country. And nobody could help him. His father was head of a very big corporation in LA. And so

01:17:23 ►

the kid could never compete with the father, but he could become

01:17:27 ►

the worst psychiatric patient. And that was that he was completely untreatable.

01:17:33 ►

What was the diagnosis? What was untreatable? What did they say was wrong with him?

01:17:39 ►

Well, he had all these very amorphous symptoms.

01:17:47 ►

He couldn’t sleep.

01:17:49 ►

He had depression.

01:17:50 ►

I mean, just on and on and on. He was very bright, and he would read all the psychiatric textbooks,

01:17:55 ►

and he would come up with all these diagnoses.

01:17:57 ►

He was in psychoanalysis for seven years at Menninger’s,

01:18:01 ►

and he didn’t budge an inch

01:18:02 ►

because he had to prove that he was

01:18:06 ►

the world’s most untreatable patient.

01:18:11 ►

His father found out about me and asked the head of psychiatry at the hospital if I would

01:18:18 ►

be willing to give him LSD.

01:18:21 ►

And so I said, hell yes, I’ve never turned anybody down.

01:18:25 ►

I didn’t care about his sister, you know.

01:18:28 ►

To me it was like, we’ll get in there.

01:18:31 ►

And so he came, and I tried to prep him for it.

01:18:36 ►

He paid no attention whatsoever to what I was talking about.

01:18:40 ►

And then blah, blah, blah, another drug deal.

01:18:42 ►

He had every good known to man. So we gave him 600 mikes.

01:18:49 ►

And he, first of all, he was just sitting there.

01:18:54 ►

And so then he said, I think I’ll lie down.

01:18:56 ►

I think I’m going to have a little rash.

01:18:59 ►

And I said, good idea.

01:19:01 ►

Well, he just went through holy hell.

01:19:08 ►

I mean, he shook. He perspired. He was throwing up. I mean, he was just a mess. I would sit with him and try to hold him and

01:19:14 ►

he would push me away. No, no. I’d say, what’s happening? Nothing. Nothing’s happening. Oh, okay. This went on for hours and hours and hours.

01:19:28 ►

And at the end of about,

01:19:31 ►

well, I guess we were there 18 hours.

01:19:34 ►

And he was in the hospital,

01:19:35 ►

so he stayed overnight.

01:19:37 ►

But he was just,

01:19:37 ►

he looked like death warmed up.

01:19:39 ►

And so I said,

01:19:40 ►

well, I’ll come and see you tomorrow morning.

01:19:42 ►

He said, well, nothing happened.

01:19:45 ►

Well, that’s okay.

01:19:46 ►

That’s okay.

01:19:47 ►

So I came the next day and so forth.

01:19:50 ►

And so, you know, he went discharged.

01:19:55 ►

So we told his parents that nothing had happened.

01:19:58 ►

And so I met with the father and I said,

01:20:01 ►

well, something definitely happened.

01:20:03 ►

But Richard doesn’t want to acknowledge anything of this.

01:20:08 ►

So what we’ll need to do is to try to do more sessions with him.

01:20:14 ►

And give him more.

01:20:16 ►

Give him more.

01:20:17 ►

So the father said, anything you can do.

01:20:21 ►

So the father said, anything you can do.

01:20:29 ►

And so I went back to the hospital.

01:20:32 ►

She said, no, we’re not doing this kid anymore.

01:20:34 ►

We won’t let you do it here.

01:20:37 ►

So I called my friend Anderson Hein in Holland and told him that I had this guy.

01:20:39 ►

I said, can I send him to you?

01:20:41 ►

Will you do it?

01:20:42 ►

And he said, no, but if you come, you can do it here.

01:20:46 ►

You can do it under my auspices. So I met with Richard and said, well, I said, the bad news is

01:20:53 ►

that we can’t give you any more LSD here. You know, thank God. And I said, but the good news is that

01:21:02 ►

I found a place in Europe that will allow us to do it.

01:21:06 ►

And these people are very knowledgeable and have done it for years.

01:21:11 ►

And so we can go there.

01:21:13 ►

And he said, oh, my father would never go to that expense.

01:21:17 ►

I said, your father’s already approved.

01:21:19 ►

And he went, oh, my God.

01:21:22 ►

Because he wasn’t about to take LSD again.

01:21:25 ►

And so I said, so would you be willing to go?

01:21:29 ►

And he said, no, I couldn’t go by myself.

01:21:31 ►

So I said, no, I’m going with you.

01:21:33 ►

He said, you’re going to come with me?

01:21:34 ►

And I said, yes.

01:21:36 ►

He said, well, how long are you going to stay?

01:21:37 ►

As long as I need to.

01:21:39 ►

And he looks at me and I’m like, oh my God.

01:21:44 ►

He hadn’t met anybody, you know, who had teeth in him like I did.

01:21:50 ►

So he said, well, I have to get back to you.

01:21:53 ►

And he said, I’ll let you know when I’m ready.

01:21:56 ►

So I would call the house.

01:21:57 ►

Now this kid had not been out in his house for years.

01:22:01 ►

He stayed in a room in the house with an attendant 24 hours a day.

01:22:06 ►

He had three round-the-clock attendants. And he was in a darkened room that he lived in

01:22:12 ►

all the time. So I would call and his mother would answer and I said,

01:22:16 ►

Uh, is Richard in? She said, No, he’s gone out.

01:22:22 ►

I said, Oh, where did he he go he doesn’t say and so I call about a week later

01:22:29 ►

Richard no he goes out every day I said did you tell him to call me and she said

01:22:36 ►

yes I said he doesn’t return my call she says I think he’s going out so he’s not here to take your car.

01:22:51 ►

It was a wonderful, wonderful story.

01:22:54 ►

I never saw him again.

01:22:57 ►

He moved out of the house.

01:22:58 ►

He moved into his own apartment.

01:22:59 ►

He got a job.

01:23:00 ►

He got a girlfriend.

01:23:01 ►

He went to college.

01:23:04 ►

All to avoid you.

01:23:05 ►

Yeah.

01:23:06 ►

Well, something must have happened then, huh?

01:23:12 ►

Something.

01:23:14 ►

It was fear and more or less do that.

01:23:18 ►

Charlie Grove had the greatest idea, because this was published in one of the maps.

01:23:26 ►

And so Rick Doblins always wants follow-up.

01:23:30 ►

So Charlie said,

01:23:31 ►

well, do you think you could find him and do follow-up?

01:23:34 ►

And I said, oh yeah.

01:23:36 ►

After 30 years, I’m knocking on his door.

01:23:41 ►

That would be hilarious.

01:23:56 ►

Do it.

01:23:57 ►

Knock on his door and say,

01:23:58 ►

hey, you know,

01:24:15 ►

you’ve been stripping for about 18 hours. find him and do it find him and do it

01:24:16 ►

that would be awesome

01:24:17 ►

it’s interesting

01:24:24 ►

the different ways that people use life experiences.

01:24:29 ►

It truly is. It’s wonderful.

01:24:36 ►

Do you know if any of the kind of work that you both have been doing is being done at this time in other countries. Do you know of any places doing LSD work today?

01:24:50 ►

Only surreptitiously.

01:24:53 ►

I don’t know.

01:24:54 ►

I think Germany was getting a little interested,

01:24:58 ►

but I don’t know if they’ve really started anything.

01:25:02 ►

I think there’s more talk.

01:25:03 ►

I think we now have three. I think, you know, we now have three approved

01:25:08 ►

projects in the United States, so that’s a big step forward. Nothing’s happened in 30

01:25:13 ►

years up till now. So I don’t know, I think some inroads are being made, and especially

01:25:18 ►

if these projects turn out well, I think we’ll start seeing some openings.

01:25:24 ►

Why do you think there’s that change?

01:25:26 ►

Why are they suddenly, after 30 years of nothing happening,

01:25:28 ►

why are they suddenly allowing research again?

01:25:33 ►

Well, you’d have to ask the people who are in there now.

01:25:37 ►

I don’t know, they’ve just been adamant for a long time.

01:25:39 ►

But other people have been working away

01:25:42 ►

and trying to get results.

01:25:44 ►

Charlie probably knows better than anybody here why.

01:25:47 ►

I’d say persistence.

01:25:49 ►

Yeah.

01:25:50 ►

We’re very stubborn.

01:25:53 ►

We just persisted.

01:25:55 ►

It’s taken many, many years to get these approvals,

01:25:59 ►

but we’re finally wearing them down.

01:26:03 ►

Well, the other thing is the evolution of age,

01:26:06 ►

the people who are now

01:26:07 ►

in decision-making positions,

01:26:09 ►

some of them took acid in the 60s,

01:26:11 ►

you know, that they’re doing…

01:26:13 ►

George Bush is rich, too.

01:26:15 ►

Some of them didn’t inhale.

01:26:19 ►

Some of them snorted.

01:26:20 ►

Yeah, there you go.

01:26:22 ►

What are the other two questions?

01:26:24 ►

There’s one I figured about at the beginning

01:26:26 ►

of the night? And I haven’t

01:26:28 ►

been to some meetings for a while,

01:26:29 ►

so I don’t know what the other two projects are

01:26:32 ►

that you just mentioned. Oh, the three

01:26:33 ►

projects.

01:26:35 ►

One is Rick Dahlman’s project

01:26:37 ►

with MDMA.

01:26:40 ►

There’s Charlie’s project

01:26:41 ►

with psilocybin.

01:26:43 ►

And then there’s another one with obsessive compulsive disorder. That’s also psilocybin. And then there’s another one with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

01:26:47 ►

That’s also psilocybin.

01:26:48 ►

Oh, that’s great.

01:26:50 ►

As far as I know, those are the only three.

01:26:54 ►

I’m thinking that what we’re hearing about ibogaine and ayahuasca

01:26:58 ►

and how they’re using that with crack and heroin addictions,

01:27:03 ►

it probably is a similar sort of…

01:27:07 ►

Bill, I want to mention about Ibogaine. Two clinics have opened up in the past year out

01:27:12 ►

of this country. There’s no research going on. They’re just treating people clinically.

01:27:17 ►

There’s a clinic in Mexico and a clinic in Vancouver. And the people running these programs are both going to come to a conference in Palm Springs

01:27:28 ►

in June to present what they’re doing.

01:27:33 ►

That’s the ITA conference in mid-June in Palm Springs.

01:27:37 ►

It’s in May.

01:27:38 ►

What?

01:27:39 ►

It’s in May.

01:27:39 ►

No, it’s in June.

01:27:42 ►

Maybe there’s another.

01:27:43 ►

Or even July.

01:27:44 ►

No, it’s June.

01:27:44 ►

Mid-June. It starts June 13. What’s ITA? International Transpersonal Association. Thank you. And Doug’s website is www.icaconference.org.

01:28:08 ►

Something like that.

01:28:09 ►

Something like that.

01:28:12 ►

Okay, we’re cooked.

01:28:16 ►

Thank you.

01:28:17 ►

Thank you.

01:28:27 ►

Thank you guys so much. That was great.

01:28:29 ►

Let me just say it’s wonderful to come here

01:28:31 ►

and to be with you.

01:28:32 ►

Thank you.

01:28:34 ►

Just so everybody knows, by vote,

01:28:41 ►

I count up, it was a close call,

01:28:43 ►

but by one vote, this stew won.

01:28:46 ►

Yeah. So,

01:28:46 ►

whoo!

01:28:49 ►

See me.

01:28:53 ►

Thank you so much.

01:28:55 ►

Barry and Myron,

01:28:56 ►

can we have the peace sign for the camera?

01:28:59 ►

The peace sign?

01:29:03 ►

Sorry.

01:29:04 ►

I keep getting that one. You’re listening to the Psychedelic Salon,

01:29:09 ►

where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.

01:29:15 ►

Wow, that sure took me back.

01:29:18 ►

To me, it almost seems like that conversation took place last night.

01:29:23 ►

As I listened to them with you just now, it felt like I was still sitting there in Kathleen’s living room.

01:29:28 ►

I almost said in Caitlin’s living room, because that’s the name I gave her in the Genesis generation.

01:29:33 ►

And if you’ve heard that chapter already, I think you now know that I wasn’t exaggerating about the raucous crowds we had on those wonderful nights.

01:29:41 ►

Ah, Kathleen, there’s no doubt in my mind, but you are the hostess of the greatest L.A.

01:29:47 ►

salon that’s been seen for many a generation.

01:29:50 ►

And since you’re considerably younger than I am, I’m sure that we’ll see you hosting

01:29:54 ►

another great salon yet again one day.

01:29:57 ►

And by the way, near the end of this talk just now, when you heard Gary ask someone

01:30:01 ►

named Charlie a question, that Charlie was Dr. Charles Grobe, who at the

01:30:06 ►

time was doing the psilocybin research with cancer patients at Harbor UCLA Medical Center.

01:30:12 ►

And I would like to add that at that time, my wife was Charlie’s research assistant for that study.

01:30:18 ►

And when she retired, she and Charlie very wisely replaced her services with those of Alicia Danforth,

01:30:24 ►

She and Charlie very wisely replaced her services with those of Alicia Danforth,

01:30:28 ►

who you have also heard here in the salon in earlier podcasts.

01:30:32 ►

So, you see, in a way, it’s all in the family.

01:30:34 ►

Our extended family, that is. And it’s the one that you most definitely are also a part of.

01:30:39 ►

And wasn’t it interesting to hear Myron speak just now

01:30:42 ►

of only three psychedelic research projects that were then taking place in the States?

01:30:47 ►

And while there aren’t all that many more today, we have at least progressed to the point where 1,200 professional people came together a few months ago for a psychedelic science conference,

01:30:57 ►

something that wasn’t in the range of possibilities just six years ago.

01:31:00 ►

So maybe we are making a little progress after all.

01:31:06 ►

years ago, so maybe we are making a little progress after all. Now you may remember from an earlier podcast that I did with Gary Fisher that he mentioned that he had given me the one

01:31:11 ►

interim report that survived about the autistic children’s experience in using LSD as a possible

01:31:17 ►

cure. And I’ll be sure that a link to that paper appears along with the program notes for today’s

01:31:23 ►

podcast in case you want to follow up on what the results were.

01:31:27 ►

And maybe I should also add that in Gary’s list of headlines

01:31:31 ►

about the various kinds of work he did with LSD around the world,

01:31:34 ►

he managed to omit the fact that he was also with Dr. Timothy Leary

01:31:38 ►

at his compound in Mexico, on the various Caribbean islands they were kicked out of,

01:31:43 ►

and at Millbrook, where he left not long after Ken Kesey crashed the party.

01:31:49 ►

And I think that most of those stories are already documented in past podcasts

01:31:53 ►

that I’ve done with Gary, in case you’re interested in hearing them.

01:31:57 ►

And by the way, if you go to our new Notes from the Psychedelic Salon blog

01:32:01 ►

and scroll down the right column to see Gary Fisher’s category.

01:32:05 ►

A click on that link will bring up all of the podcasts I’ve done with him,

01:32:08 ►

and either stream the programs there or download them.

01:32:13 ►

And along with the program notes for this podcast,

01:32:15 ►

I’ll also post a scan that I made of that painting that they were talking about,

01:32:19 ►

Veronica’s Veil, the one that they stared at while on LSD.

01:32:24 ►

It’s actually the same one that Myron used at the Menlo Park Institute back in the day,

01:32:29 ►

and he gave it to me a few years ago, and it still remains one of my most precious possessions.

01:32:35 ►

Now before I go, I’d like to read something about what the Arrowwood Group is doing

01:32:39 ►

to help preserve the work of these early pioneers in psychedelic research.

01:32:44 ►

A while back, a truckload of documents were shipped to the Arrowwood Center

01:32:47 ►

from Myron and Jean Stolaroff by way of John Hanna’s van.

01:32:51 ►

And since then, a lot has happened.

01:32:54 ►

And I asked John to give us a little update, and here’s part of what he had to say.

01:32:58 ►

I just today sent off the remaining couple dozen or so reels of audio tape for transfer.

01:33:03 ►

Last time I did this, it only took about a week until I got them back. Thank you. be featured in future episodes of the Psychedelic Salon, and that they are a unique and valuable

01:33:25 ►

flashback to earlier times, an important part of our psychedelic history.

01:33:30 ►

And I guess I should add that one of those tapes that John found is an interview that

01:33:35 ►

Myron conducted with Dr. Humphrey Osmond back in 1964.

01:33:39 ►

You remember Osmond, I’m sure.

01:33:41 ►

He was the man who actually coined the word psychedelic.

01:33:44 ►

And I’m really looking forward to the day that you and I can hear this conversation here in the salon.

01:33:49 ►

Now, if you are an Arrowwood member, you also receive their print publication, Arrowwood Extracts.

01:33:54 ►

And in the next edition, here is what they’ll be saying about the Stolaroff Collection.

01:34:00 ►

In February, Arrowwood received scans of all the items that were sent to professional scanning services from the Stolaroff Collection.

01:34:08 ►

Nearly 5,000 unique items were digitized.

01:34:11 ►

The original paper documents have been returned and most remain stored at Arrowwood Central

01:34:16 ►

until a time can be arranged to deliver them to the Stolaroffs in person.

01:34:20 ►

A small portion of the collection, about 350 private letters, was removed and shipped by

01:34:26 ►

request to the couple who penned them. A disc of all scanned materials is also provided to Myron’s

01:34:32 ►

daughter Harriet. Along with the text materials, the Stolaroff collection includes a couple dozen

01:34:37 ►

reel-to-reel recordings, many of which are unlabeled. To test the feasibility of digitally

01:34:43 ►

archiving these, sample reels were sent

01:34:46 ►

to two companies specializing in audio data transfer. One of the reels contains a November

01:34:51 ►

1, 1964 interview that Myron conducted with Humphrey Osmond. The second reel contains a

01:34:57 ►

non-dated trip report in which Myron describes the first time he took a 200-microgram dose of LSD.

01:35:04 ►

Unfortunately, while both companies did a reasonable job in transferring the recordings,

01:35:09 ►

there were some challenges.

01:35:10 ►

Although losses and audio gremlins are to be expected on magnetic tape that is over 40 years old,

01:35:16 ►

the sound levels were quite low and marred by distracting hum or buzz.

01:35:20 ►

Hoping to produce something a bit better,

01:35:22 ►

Arrow would pass the discs along to volunteer Jay Rizos, Thank you. reels out to be digitized, and will then have the files cleaned up as needed. Eventually, this audio will be published online, linked through the Myron Stolaroff character

01:35:49 ►

vault.

01:35:50 ►

We’ll keep you posted.

01:35:52 ►

Arrowhead now looks forward to the next step in making the Stolaroff collection available

01:35:55 ►

online, the development of a keyword-searchable database with abstracts for each document

01:36:01 ►

and audio file.

01:36:03 ►

Donations toward this phase of the project can

01:36:05 ►

be made at arrowwood.org slash donations slash project underscore stolaroff.php, and I’ll be

01:36:13 ►

sure to put a link to that in the program notes for this podcast. So if you’re in a position to

01:36:18 ►

help with this work, I’m sure that future generations will be forever grateful to you.

01:36:23 ►

And by the way, to help, it doesn’t mean that donating money is the only way to do so,

01:36:28 ►

because that would eliminate almost everybody I know.

01:36:31 ►

Things are really tight for all of us right now.

01:36:34 ►

I know that too, but what you can do is the same thing that I’m doing,

01:36:37 ►

and that’s spread the word.

01:36:39 ►

You never know who you might tell about the Stolaroth Collection

01:36:42 ►

that may just be the person whose next-door neighbor is the one to put the fun drive over the top.

01:36:47 ►

As I’ve said before, we’re all in this together, you know.

01:36:52 ►

Well, that should do it for now, and so I’ll close today’s podcast by reminding you once again

01:36:57 ►

that this and most of the podcasts from the Psychedelic Salon are freely available for you to use in your own audio projects

01:37:03 ►

under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial ShareAlike 3.0 license.

01:37:08 ►

And if you have any questions about that, just click the Creative Commons link at the bottom of the Psychedelic Salon webpage, which you can find through psychedelicsalon.org.

01:37:17 ►

And I guess I should mention that I’ve now completed the revision of the notes from the Psychedelic Salon blog, which you can find via psychedelicsalon.com,.net,.org, or.us. Thank you. but that is no longer an active website for me, and I have left it in place because there are so many links into it that I don’t want to break them all.

01:37:49 ►

But if you bookmark that address, you may want to change it or just use one of the psychedelic salon addresses

01:37:54 ►

because they’ll always be pointing to the current site should I ever have to relocate it again.

01:38:00 ►

And I should also mention that if you’re interested in the philosophy behind the psychedelic salon,

01:38:05 ►

you can hear all about it in my novel, The Genesis Generation,

01:38:09 ►

which is available as an audiobook that you can download at genesisgeneration.us.

01:38:14 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space.

01:38:19 ►

Be well, my friends.

01:38:24 ►

Yes, well, it is an ambiguous enterprise and fraught with contradiction, my friends.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

232 - Fisher, Stolaroff, and Al Hubbard

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Program Notes

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