Program Notes

Guest speaker: Terence McKenna

[NOTE: All quotations are by Terence McKenna.]

“One of the things that’s so striking about shamanism in the native context is the absence of mental illness.”

“Every step into freedom contains within it the potential for greater bondage.”

TerenceFinnBruce188.jpg

“This is what I talked about last night about the archaic revival as the notion of making a sharp left turn away from the momentum that the historical vehicle wants to follow.”

“We now have no choice in the matter of business as usual. There will not, apparently, be business as usual.”

“You either have a plan, or you are a part of somebody else’s plan.”

“The psychedelic sets you at the beginning of the path, and then people do all kinds of things with it.”

“We are reaping the fruits of ten thousand, fifty thousand years of sowing of the fields of mind. And it is being dropped into our laps for us to create human-machine interfacing, control of genetic material, redefinition of social reality, re engineering of languages, revisioning of the planetary ecology, all these things fall upon us.”

“I’m fascinated by hallucinations. I mean, to me that is the sina qua non that you’re getting somewhere.”

“If you actually look at the etymology of the word ‘hallucination’, what it’s come to mean in English is a delusion. But what it really means in the original language is to wander in the mind. That’s the meaning of ‘hallucination’, to wander in the mind.”

“For unknown reasons, there is a tremendous concentration of psychoactive plants on the South American continent. The South American continent has more known hallucinogens than the rest of the planet combined.”

“Patanjali specifically says that there are three paths to the goal of yoga. And they are, control of the breath, control of posture, and light-filled herbs. It says it right there. Stanza 6 of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.”

California Institute of Integral Studies

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Transcript

00:00:00

Greetings from cyberdelic space.

00:00:19

This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:22

Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:24

And I have to tell you that

00:00:25

our fellow salonners just continue

00:00:27

to blow me away by continuing

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to send in donations to

00:00:31

help offset some of the expenses

00:00:33

associated with the salon.

00:00:35

And it looks like this year,

00:00:37

thanks to all of our fellow donors

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and to you wonderful souls who have

00:00:42

also bought a copy of my new book,

00:00:44

well, it looks like I’ll be joining forces with Bruce Dahmer

00:00:47

and a crew of multimedia artists to produce another big event at Burning Man this year.

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And I’ll tell you more about that after today’s talk.

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But first, I want to thank Andy W., Daniel P., Wilma V., Garth A.,

00:01:03

and our old friend Adime Short,

00:01:06

all of whom sent in donations this past week.

00:01:09

And I might add, they not only are also all repeat donors,

00:01:13

but they also bought a copy of my new audio book, The Genesis Generation.

00:01:18

You know, it’s really difficult to tell you all how much I appreciate your support,

00:01:22

and that also goes for all of our fellow Saloners

00:01:25

who have now also begun to listen to my new novel.

00:01:29

I truly appreciate your support and all of your kind words,

00:01:33

but most of all, I appreciate the efforts of you

00:01:36

and all of our fellow Saloners

00:01:38

for spreading the word about the tribe

00:01:40

and continuing your search for more of the others.

00:01:44

Now, speaking of the tribe, Thank you. workshop was held on November 6, 1988, at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San

00:02:07

Francisco. And by the way, if you aren’t familiar with CIIS, you ought to go to ciis.edu and look

00:02:17

into some of their programs. And if you’re looking for an Institute of Higher Learning to attend,

00:02:22

well, in my humble opinion, this is one of the finest schools in the land.

00:02:27

As you can probably figure out from last week’s podcast, and from the continuation of it that I’m about to play,

00:02:35

a school that sponsors workshops by people like Terrence McKenna has got to be a way cool place to study.

00:02:42

Now, I’m going to pick up where the tapes left off last week, but there is a

00:02:47

section of about 15 minutes that I cut out, and what it consists of is Terrence continuing with

00:02:53

more book recommendations. And if you’re interested in his bibliography, well, you can download this

00:02:59

complete workshop on the posting that Miguel made on the psychedelicsalon.org blog. But I felt that Thank you. Actually, it really wasn’t all that boring, but like most kids, I like to skip ahead to the fun stuff.

00:03:27

So there’s a spot about 45 minutes into this where you’ll hear a jump from him talking about mind being a temporal style,

00:03:35

and then it picks up with him saying how important it is to have this information.

00:03:40

Of course, he’s speaking about the information in the books that I cut out.

00:03:43

Of course, he’s speaking about the information in the books that I cut out.

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And actually, between those two sections, that was the 15-minute reading of his recommended reading list.

00:03:56

So anyway, let’s go back in time to November of 1988,

00:04:00

when Ronald Reagan was still the President of the United States,

00:04:05

and when Salvia Dibinorum was still considered a very obscure plant.

00:04:11

And let’s join the little group at CIIS for a little more fun stuff in the form of brain candy from Terrence McKenna.

00:04:30

One of the things that’s so striking about shamanism in the native context is the absence of mental illness,

00:04:35

the absence of serious neurotic patterns of behavior.

00:04:41

This is because this trans-linguistic reality

00:04:49

is allowed to work its will

00:04:54

through shamanism,

00:04:56

is allowed to regulate the society.

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In other words,

00:05:01

our model of how society works is

00:05:04

we are at war with nature,

00:05:07

and we must push it back, seize a beachhead, fortify our position,

00:05:15

dig in these kinds of metaphors, metaphors of capture and control,

00:05:21

while the shamanic approach is we must communicate with nature in order that nature

00:05:30

can communicate with us in order that we may know what should be done. And shamanism as classically

00:05:38

practiced is hunting magic, weather magic, healing magic.

00:05:45

In other words, ways of getting into the evolving of state-bound system patterns within nature.

00:05:55

Weather, we would presume, can to some degree be predicted by looking at past weather states.

00:06:08

be predicted by looking at past weather states. Hunting can to some degree be predicted by looking at the migration and movement of game in past situations. So shamanism then becomes a kind of

00:06:17

mnemonic exercise where by keeping track of what has happened,

00:06:28

you can build up a model of what will happen.

00:06:35

And originally, this was done through great mnemonic feats of memory, you know, like the Yugoslavian folktale singers or the Homeric epics

00:06:40

or the people who sang the Edith.

00:06:43

These were, you know, works of hundreds of thousands of

00:06:48

lines that were passed down virtually without change over millennia but in there’s a strange

00:06:59

phenomenon in at least in the evolution of cultures and perhaps more generally,

00:07:06

which is every step into freedom contains within it the potential for greater bondage.

00:07:15

Now what I mean by that is, here’s an example of it.

00:07:19

Women in charge of the gathering phase, in hunting, gathering cultures, developed grasses, small herbs, shrubs.

00:07:46

They have roots, fruits, berries, seeds, inflorescences.

00:07:53

Some of these things are poisonous.

00:07:55

Some of these things are foods.

00:07:57

Some grow in the spring, some in the fall, some along the river courses, some on the hilltops, so forth and so on.

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some along the river courses, some on the hilltops, so forth and so on.

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A great many descriptive dimensions come to bear on this.

00:08:17

So consequently, I think women are to be held responsible for the evolution of language in order to discuss the extremely important matter of what is good to eat and what is not

00:08:25

and where do you find it and how do you preserve it

00:08:27

and what do you combine it with and so forth and so on.

00:08:31

Men, on the other hand, who were in charge of the hunting

00:08:35

because of the different body type and bladder capacity and so on,

00:08:40

the premium there was placed on silence stoicism being able to stalk and for days make

00:08:52

no noise possibly and to just you know sort of integrate into this silent kind of freedom which binds occurred in the shamanic effort to were overwhelmed by the amount of data,

00:09:28

by the size of the epics,

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by the sheer length of these genealogies.

00:09:33

So then symbolic notation is brought in

00:09:38

and shamanism turns into scribe craft

00:09:44

and signifying magical forces

00:09:48

turns into writing down their names,

00:09:52

and there is a tremendous binding,

00:09:55

a compression, a limitation of freedom

00:10:00

because the strategy of freedom became too successful.

00:10:05

So this reaching beyond ourselves is a process that is continuous.

00:10:14

We transcend a state.

00:10:17

We then lock ourselves into the transcendent state.

00:10:22

It becomes defined by its own set of limitations, and we move beyond it.

00:10:27

And this kind of bootstrapping mechanism, I think, has been at work throughout the evolution of

00:10:34

language, throughout the evolution of shamanism. Now we have come to a similar kind of bind,

00:10:43

we have come to a similar kind of bind having to do with the bankruptcy

00:10:47

of analytical analysis and rationalism,

00:10:54

which has led us to a pretty complete mastery

00:10:59

of inert matter.

00:11:01

But when pushed into the quantum realm, suddenly contradictions begin to multiply

00:11:10

and impossible conclusions force themselves upon the investigator. Well, what this means is that

00:11:19

rationalism has simply reached its limit. There is no reason to think that it doesn’t have a limit.

00:11:29

It was just the inflated fantasy of the 17th century

00:11:33

that thought that God’s mind must work like the mind of a watchmaker.

00:11:38

But in fact, what with chaos theory and catastrophism

00:11:45

and numerous other non-equilibrium partial differential processes in nature,

00:11:55

we now know that nature is extremely unpredictable, highly variable,

00:12:02

not subject to analytical understanding,

00:12:06

except in very limited domains.

00:12:10

What this understanding that quantum physics has brought the physicists

00:12:14

and that the psychedelic state has brought the people who pursue that,

00:12:21

it has not fed back into the mainstream of society.

00:12:28

We’re still living in a male-dominated, object-dominated, subject, other kind of world model, a world model, a world model inherited from the 18th century,

00:12:47

really even more than from the 19th century.

00:12:51

Well, is it going to kill us?

00:12:54

Is it too late?

00:12:56

What can we do about it?

00:12:58

This is what I talked about last night,

00:13:00

about the archaic revival as the notion of making a sharp left turn

00:13:11

away from the momentum that the historical vehicle wants to follow,

00:13:17

which is phanatoptic.

00:13:20

Don’t kid yourself.

00:13:22

You cannot have three religions stacked up on top of each other, stretching back 4,000 years, pursuing this monotheistic vision, which ends in an apocalypse, without building a tremendous morphogenetic predilection for the apocalypse, and our demonic investigations into matter

00:13:48

have led us to create the machinery to produce the apocalypse. It’s interesting, somebody said

00:13:57

of the Reagan administration, this is when James Watt was running around saying we didn’t have to save the trees

00:14:06

because Jesus was coming anyway, so it didn’t matter. And someone said, the jerks want to be

00:14:16

in the Bible. And that’s precisely the historical situation. The jerks want to be in the Bible. In other words, every petty potentate

00:14:26

from Frederick Barbarossa to Ronald Reagan has secretly believed that they were living in the

00:14:34

time of the Antichrist and would participate in the scenario of the book of Revelations.

00:14:42

This is psychosis if you meet it in a person

00:14:45

if you meet it in a culture

00:14:47

it’s called religious piety

00:14:49

and conviction

00:14:50

and it has been going on so long

00:14:57

that it has actually created

00:15:00

a very narrow neck

00:15:02

in the historical process

00:15:04

that cannot be avoided. We now have no choice

00:15:09

in the matter of business as usual. There will not apparently be business as usual.

00:15:17

There will either be an apocalyptic destruction of the planet, a kind of Ragnarok, a Gotterdammerung, a complete

00:15:27

storm of fire brought on by the eruption of the psychotic mythologies that have driven

00:15:34

the matter-centered monotheistic male ego culture.

00:16:07

Or there will be a plucking of victory from the jaws of that defeat, and not an apocalypse, but a kind of cultural’s work, The Chalice and the Blade.

00:16:12

If you haven’t read this book, I recommend it to you.

00:16:21

For psychedelic people, for feminists, for people concerned with the state of society, this is certainly an important book. And what she’s saying is partnership.

00:16:23

an important book. And what she’s saying is partnership. It is not true that the

00:16:27

story of the human race is the story of a pendulum swing

00:16:31

between matriarchy and patriarchy, each with its own

00:16:35

flaws. Rather, it is that human beings

00:16:39

have always lived in an equilibrium

00:16:43

style partnership society,

00:16:46

except during the last 8,000 years,

00:16:51

this pattern has been disrupted by the rise of the male ego,

00:16:58

the suppression of the logos-like connection to nature,

00:17:03

of the logos-like connection to nature and a certain evolutionary path

00:17:12

taken in the epigenetic coding of information.

00:17:16

In other words, the phonetic alphabet.

00:17:19

The phonetic alphabet, which has no reference

00:17:23

to the icon of the things expressed is utterly cool

00:17:32

utterly unable then to give you any feeling of engagement which with what is being described. This gives permission for analytical science

00:17:45

and the detachment of rationalism

00:17:49

and the sorts of philosophies that have created

00:17:53

the tremendous split between head and heart

00:17:56

that characterizes the political systems

00:17:59

of the last several hundred years.

00:18:04

Well, this thing which the shamans are contacting,

00:18:10

which we can call another dimension, hyperspace,

00:18:14

the collective unconscious, whatever it is,

00:18:17

it is the ground of our becoming.

00:18:22

And the only way to sort of unhitch ourselves

00:18:26

from the ego

00:18:28

is to open pathways of communication

00:18:33

to this invisible field of intentionality

00:18:40

in which we are embedded.

00:18:42

And this is a very difficult task

00:18:44

because the culture in which we are embedded. And this is a very difficult task because the culture in which we live

00:18:48

denies that this thing even exists.

00:18:51

I mean, if you start saying

00:18:53

that you feel the heartbeat of the planet

00:18:56

or that you are in resonance

00:18:58

with the local ecosystem

00:19:01

or still worse,

00:19:02

if you say that you hear the voices

00:19:04

of elves and fairies

00:19:06

this is psychopathy automatically you know you have to be observed sedated and

00:19:13

cured because you’re participating in a model of reality that is not

00:19:20

consensually validated nevertheless I think what we’re trying to do with meetings like this

00:19:27

is empower this particular meme, empower this idea. I can’t remember who developed the idea of memes,

00:19:37

but it’s basically the notion that ideas compete with each other the way animals and plants compete in an ecosystem,

00:19:50

that ideas adapt and spread and occupy niches and defend territory and redefine environments.

00:20:03

And so my mentioning last night of the woman who said to me,

00:20:08

I thought I was crazy until I heard you speak,

00:20:11

for me that is really the nugget of this work

00:20:16

and the most satisfying kind of comment that anybody could make

00:20:20

because what has happened since the 1960s

00:20:30

because what has happened since the 1960s is the straight people all went off together.

00:20:34

And by this I don’t refer to sexual preference.

00:20:38

I use straight in the earlier sense.

00:20:48

The straight people all went off and became very weird together you know with their golden mercedes and their picasso ceramics and all that uh the freaks all went off and became strange alone

00:21:01

each apart in our own way because community was shattered, affinity groups were suppressed,

00:21:09

people went all kinds of directions. Now, the people who went through the 60s,

00:21:15

approaching or in their 40s, have had 20 years to see how they like that kind of

00:21:29

years to see how they like that kind of uh alienated aloneness and so this morning as we went around i heard many people saying uh uh you know that they had done these things in the 60s

00:21:36

but not for a long time and now they were returning to it i think this is because it finally dawns on you that, you know, this may be the only

00:21:46

shot you’ve got at it. I mean, reincarnation is fine, past lives are fine, but we’re all getting

00:21:55

daily older, and we don’t know where we came from, you know, what lies beyond the zygote. And we don’t know where we’re going,

00:22:05

what lies beyond the pine box,

00:22:08

who can say.

00:22:10

So out of the incredible mystery

00:22:13

of whatever the universe is,

00:22:16

a microsecond of opportunity

00:22:19

against impossible odds

00:22:22

has sprung into being.

00:22:29

We are embedded in that moment of opportunity so what are you going to do with it are you going to sweep up around the ashram for 30 years and

00:22:35

then decide that that was a mistake or you know are you going to just give yourself over to the arms of holy mother church

00:22:47

for a lifetime i mean people do this you cannot escape making some kind of commitment to something

00:22:55

nobody gets through life without being asked to to sign up either in their own club or somebody else’s.

00:23:07

The mushroom said to me once, in the way that it does when it delivers these aphorisms,

00:23:15

it said, you must have a plan.

00:23:19

If you have no plan, you will become part of somebody else’s plan.

00:23:24

You either have a plan or you are part of somebody else’s plan.

00:23:29

And so I think people are waking up to the fact that we must use what works.

00:23:40

Because you see someone on this side of the room, when we went around,

00:23:57

Because you see, someone on this side of the room, when we went around, talked about yoga and how the psychedelic gives the experience on demand, but are we ready and how do you gain skills and this sort of thing.

00:24:02

To my mind, the goal is not the psychedelic experience.

00:24:05

The beginning of the path is the psychedelic experience. The beginning of the path is the psychedelic experience.

00:24:08

So if yoga promises that after 20 years

00:24:11

it will deliver you to the beginning of the path,

00:24:15

then there’s something seriously wrong here.

00:24:20

The psychedelic sets you

00:24:23

at the beginning of the path.

00:24:25

And then people do all kinds of things with it.

00:24:28

I mean, I am amazed.

00:24:30

I feel there is more variation in how we deal with this

00:24:35

than in almost any other phase of human activity.

00:24:38

Because some people seem to have almost no self-reflection.

00:24:46

And I’ve noticed it also touches sexuality

00:24:48

because I don’t know how many of you have ever encountered

00:24:53

the Penthouse Forum.

00:24:57

But this is where people write into Penthouse

00:25:00

and detail these astonishing sexual,

00:25:04

unpredictable sexual exploits, threesomes, foursomes, and twelvesomes that just fell upon them.

00:25:12

And whenever I have, for some reason, some occasion to read these things,

00:25:17

what is amazing to me is that this appears to be descriptions of the behavior of an alien species

00:25:28

because there is no self-reflection on what does this mean?

00:25:34

You know, what does this mean that I get stuck in an elevator and end up copulating with 12 stockbrokers?

00:25:42

It’s just accepted as how it is well you get this same thing with

00:25:50

psychedelics where you say to someone and they say oh yeah and the night in the 60s i took psychedelics

00:25:57

you know wow it was really strange all these colors and and voices and voices and apparently no self-reflection,

00:26:08

no realization that this is actually happening to you.

00:26:14

This is happening to you.

00:26:18

Therefore, the implications must be fairly central.

00:26:24

And then other people immediately get it.

00:26:27

They say, you know, my gosh, this plant, this pill shows me that reality is at least a thousand times larger than I thought it was.

00:26:38

Showed me that I don’t know who I am, where I am, what I am, or anything else.

00:26:47

And I don’t know what it takes to instill that in people.

00:26:52

Maybe intellectual self-reflection.

00:26:55

One of the things that is so puzzling about shamans

00:26:59

when you actually deal with them in the field

00:27:01

is they are not like the other people in the tribe.

00:27:07

The other people in the tribe are very tribal people. In other words, they have all the curious

00:27:16

cultural limitations of people in every culture. They think you smell funny. They think you look funny. Everything you do is amusing.

00:27:27

They stand around in small groups giggling and pointing and like that.

00:27:33

The shamans, on the other hand, it’s nothing like that.

00:27:38

They accept you totally as a person.

00:27:42

They make no cultural judgments.

00:27:44

You don’t look funny, smell funny, so forth and so on,

00:27:48

because they are what I call extra-environmentalists.

00:27:55

They are deconditioned from the assumptions of their own culture.

00:28:01

So they may be the Witoto shaman,

00:28:04

but the Witoto shaman, but the Witoto

00:28:05

shaman is less Witoto than any other

00:28:08

Witoto, because the Witoto shaman

00:28:11

operates in the context of Witotoness

00:28:15

embedded in the

00:28:17

larger reality. And so

00:28:20

I think what we need to do when we try to

00:28:23

revivify shamanism in our own lives is recover the profound reality of what it’s doing.

00:28:36

Sometimes I have flashes when I’m giving these talks of how different it is to be stoned than to talk about being stoned.

00:28:48

I mean, here we sit, you know,

00:28:51

in our cotton underwear,

00:28:54

just with our, where we came from,

00:28:59

our schedules in front of us.

00:29:02

The mundaneness of it is so all-pervasive. And we could be discussing

00:29:09

Gnosticism or a political action project, but we’re discussing instead something really appalling,

00:29:18

I think. I mean, we’re calmly discussing the fact that there is another world overlapping our own,

00:29:28

and very few people will even admit the fact.

00:29:32

So I always think, and this is my symbol of myself, to myself,

00:29:39

I always think of a wonderful B science fiction movie I saw when I was a kid,

00:29:49

where there’s a dinosaur in the swamp,

00:29:53

and it’s set somewhere in Mexico,

00:30:01

and the typical campesino is sent by the patron of the ranch to gather firewood in the jungle. And he, of course, encounters this extremely large rubber reptile

00:30:09

roaring around and then comes back to the ranch

00:30:13

and is pointing back in the woods

00:30:16

and is completely inarticulate trying to say,

00:30:20

you know, a creature from the id, a beast from another dimension is rampaging around in the forest.

00:30:27

Well, they just dismiss him as, you know, these peasants, they believe anything, you can’t trust them for a moment.

00:30:35

This is the sort of situation we’re in.

00:30:58

The extraterrestrial invasion that so many people anticipate or the extraterrestrial contact that so many people hope for and that sells so many cheap newspapers is well underway.

00:31:06

It’s simply that the words we have to describe it are utterly inadequate. So words like extraterrestrial invasion, contact with an intelligent species,

00:31:13

end of history, migration into hyperspace,

00:31:17

these are pathetic signifiers of what is actually happening to us.

00:31:26

signifiers of what is actually happening to us. What is actually happening to us is pretty darn hard to wrap your mind around. We are caught in a vortex of concrescence and

00:31:37

compression that was set in motion at least as early as the melting of the last glaciation. We are reaping the fruits of 10,000, 50,000 years of sowing of the fields of mind,

00:31:56

and it is being dropped into our laps for us to create human-machine interfacing,

00:32:04

to create human-machine interfacing,

00:32:07

control of genetic material,

00:32:12

redefinition of social reality,

00:32:15

re-engineering of languages,

00:32:19

re-visioning of the planetary ecology.

00:32:22

All these things fall upon us. And for us to be worthy of it, for us to make sense of it,

00:32:27

for us to be anything other than victimized by the 20th century,

00:32:32

we need, I think, to reach back into time and to anchor ourselves with the transcendent mystery,

00:32:44

anchor ourselves with the transcendent mystery, which is somehow tied up with our own being,

00:32:49

somehow present on the planet,

00:32:51

but mostly a large list of unanswered questions.

00:32:57

We don’t know what is going on on this planet.

00:33:01

We don’t know why there is life here,

00:33:03

whether it’s an accident, somebody’s plan. We don’t know why there is life here, whether it’s an accident, somebody’s plan.

00:33:06

We don’t know why intelligence is here.

00:33:09

Again, accident, plan,

00:33:11

if plan, whose plan,

00:33:13

if plan, for what,

00:33:16

if plan, where are we in the plan?

00:33:19

I mean, we all tend,

00:33:23

when we abandon ourselves to cultural values,

00:33:26

to focus in so tightly that we lose the big picture.

00:33:30

And if psychedelics are anything, they are a zoom lens back to the broadest possible point of view.

00:33:50

possible point of view. Well, why don’t we stop there and take a just a 10-minute break or something and then we’ll come back and do dialogue on this. So why

00:34:01

don’t we use the rest of this morning to see if we’re getting oriented right

00:34:07

and to just discuss any questions you have

00:34:11

or anything that comes up for you out of this so far.

00:34:17

Does anybody have anything?

00:34:20

I was curious about what you were talking about with extraterrestrials

00:34:24

and not having the appropriate language to really discuss it

00:34:28

and your view of what’s going on.

00:34:34

Can you put it in words so that we can hear it?

00:34:38

Well, it changes for me all the time.

00:34:44

I mean, I don’t have a point of view,

00:34:47

and my primary job is not public speaking or writing, but exploring.

00:34:54

When I first started taking mushrooms,

00:34:57

and throughout the 70s when we wrote The Mushroom Grower’s Guide,

00:35:04

I held several opinions but my most strongly held

00:35:08

opinion was it actually is an extraterrestrial just no shit flat out it is an extraterrestrial

00:35:19

and what’s surprising to me is that uh a single mushroom trip of a certain sort could probably put me right back there again.

00:35:55

is a kind of process of coming down from the real assimilatable context of the experience.

00:35:59

It’s like an extraterrestrial.

00:36:07

I mean, I would certainly say this. If extraterrestrials appeared over Washington and Moscow tomorrow,

00:36:13

it wouldn’t make this any less mysterious or puzzling.

00:36:18

In fact, the extraterrestrials might turn out to be mundane.

00:36:20

This is not.

00:36:26

How it speaks, this is the most astonishing thing for me to get used to

00:36:30

I mean the visual hallucinations

00:36:32

somehow I can work it around

00:36:35

that these are floods of imagery set off

00:36:38

from deep structures of the brain

00:36:40

and dumping of memory banks

00:36:42

but that it can just address you in real time

00:36:48

and say, Terrence, you know,

00:36:52

and then proceed to blow my mind.

00:36:56

The only, and now several things may be happening here,

00:37:02

the only time when we have the experience

00:37:06

of focusing on an incoming message,

00:37:10

decoding it in real time,

00:37:12

and responding to it immediately

00:37:15

is when we have a conversation with someone.

00:37:20

So if you find yourself responding to a message in real time, your brain automatically thinks you’re having a conversation.

00:37:32

Saying, you know, if it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, it must be a duck.

00:37:37

So here I am listening and responding to someone speaking to me in English, therefore this must be a conversation.

00:37:48

There are physical arguments

00:37:51

for viewing the mushroom as extraterrestrial.

00:37:55

First of all, what is psilocybin?

00:37:59

Psilocybin is 4-phosphoriloxy-NN-dimethyltryptamine.

00:38:04

Of all the endo compounds in nature, of all the endo compounds in nature,

00:38:13

only psilocybin is hydroxylated at the 4 position.

00:38:21

Well, now, if you were to design a computer program to search Earth, to search the life forms of Earth for evidence of extraterrestrial origin, one of the things you would tell this program to do is look for unusual molecules that have no apparent cousins or relatives among other organisms.

00:38:45

Well, here is psilocybin, phosphorylated in the four position.

00:38:50

Nothing else on Earth is.

00:38:53

A material argument for its origin outside of the terrestrial ecosystem.

00:39:02

A slightly different argument that would see the mushroom as extraterrestrial is

00:39:09

look at its style, for want of a better word. I mean, what is a mushroom? First of all,

00:39:19

they reproduce by spores. Spores are the most economical biological unit imaginable.

00:39:28

They can survive the radiation levels of interstellar space.

00:39:33

They can survive for eons under conditions very close to those encountered in deep space.

00:39:42

The mushroom spore falls into an ecosystem, immediately undergoes cell division.

00:39:52

A fine thread-like network full of neurotransmitters begins to spread itself through the soil.

00:40:00

It’s very closely analogous to the neural network of a higher animal, including a human being.

00:40:08

Now, we’re accustomed to thinking that an extraterrestrial would bear the imprint of the evolutionary situation in which it came to be.

00:40:21

In other words, if it evolved on a low gravity planet, it will be tall

00:40:28

and thin. If it evolved in a methane atmosphere, it will have an exotic body chemistry and so forth.

00:40:34

But that’s because we ourselves have possessed the knowledge of how DNA works for only about

00:40:41

40 years. It’s reasonable to assume, I think, that if an intelligent species

00:40:47

gets a thousand years of study of DNA, that they can design themselves to be however they

00:40:57

care to be. And in fact, if you think of the mushroom from that point of view, I think that we might choose that kind of an adaptation

00:41:09

if we could have any form we wanted, because it’s very non-invasive,

00:41:16

very humbly insinuates itself into a situation and grows essentially on waste material in the soil, yet when it sporulates,

00:41:26

it can actually cross the boundary of outer space.

00:41:32

And, you know, great economy, great artistry, tremendous zen-like aesthetics seem expressed in the mushroom if you view it as a designed piece of work

00:41:47

rather than an object in the environment.

00:41:50

And then finally, of course,

00:41:52

the major argument for the extraterrestrial origin of the mushroom,

00:41:57

but it’s an insider argument,

00:42:00

is the content of the experience.

00:42:03

Number one, it says it’s an extraterrestrial organism,

00:42:08

and it has the data to back up the claim.

00:42:13

It can show you movies of desert worlds, jungle worlds,

00:42:20

high-pressure, high-gravity methane worlds,

00:42:23

planets whose cores are helium-4,

00:42:29

and worlds where you don’t know whether you’re inside an organism

00:42:33

or inside some kind of piece of machinery,

00:42:37

whether you’re under the surface of a planet.

00:42:39

I mean, literally things that our minds just stop in the presence of.

00:42:48

So to me, that’s really the interesting thing about the mushroom,

00:42:52

is that it can be as friendly as it needs to be

00:42:56

and can even reassure you with a Disney-esque burlesque of dancing flowers

00:43:03

and pirouetting pink elephants

00:43:06

but once you are comfortable with it

00:43:10

and enter the dialogue

00:43:11

and begin to get to know it

00:43:14

getting to know it is an appalling experience

00:43:18

because you can say to it

00:43:21

show me a little more

00:43:23

of who you are for yourself and then you know a veil is lifted

00:43:30

and your jaw just drops and then you say show me a little more of who you and that’s enough

00:43:36

of who you are for yourself because and you wonder you know while this thing is talking to me, is it talking, is, how engaged is the

00:43:48

mushroom by me? Is it, is all of its attention focused upon me when I’m talking to it the way

00:43:55

all of my attention is focused back on it? Or is it like a multi-user computer system? Is it able

00:44:02

to simultaneously deal with huge numbers of organisms? What is the

00:44:07

relationship of psilocybin to the inner life of the mushroom? Is it stoned all the time?

00:44:15

Why does it want, why is it so important that these indole compounds get lodged in the nervous system of mammals.

00:44:26

It’s almost as though it’s a symbiotic relationship,

00:44:30

that the mushroom does not truly live its life unless it is taken,

00:44:39

unless its unique molecular component can find its way into the synapses

00:44:46

of a self-reflecting higher animal.

00:44:50

Well, then, what are we for for it?

00:44:55

And, you know, you can ask these questions.

00:44:57

Well, I think that it’s preserving.

00:44:59

Like, they don’t, you know, they don’t impose themselves on us.

00:45:03

You have to approach them.

00:45:06

Yes, they usually, one reason I think people have had trouble confirming

00:45:10

the animate and intelligent quality of the mushroom is you must ask.

00:45:18

You know, you just don’t take psilocybin and sit there because it won’t do it.

00:45:22

But if you take psilocybin and call it,

00:45:26

in some sense, whatever that means,

00:45:29

invoke, call, try to visualize,

00:45:35

then it will begin to come towards you

00:45:38

and lift these veils.

00:45:41

And this world of zany, pun-like,

00:45:48

hyper-dimensional intelligence that is revealed is as strange as an extraterrestrial would be this is i guess the final content of evidence

00:45:56

for the extraterrestrial origin is the fact that it just seems so different from anything one could conceive of or imagine.

00:46:06

I mean, you cannot, in one of these volleys of hallucination,

00:46:12

convince yourself, this is only me.

00:46:16

These are my memories, or these are distorted transforms of past experience because you know i was uh i was trained as an art historian

00:46:27

to have an eye for stylistic difference and cohesion of of a set of aesthetic canons

00:46:37

and it just blows my mind i mean there is more art locked up in these things to be viewed in a single hour than the human race has produced

00:46:47

in 10,000 years. I mean, an art of a compelling, weird, breathtaking, awesome quality that just

00:46:59

breathes in every pore of itself, you know, this is the other. This is not you.

00:47:05

Don’t be deceived, my little primate friend.

00:47:12

Yeah.

00:47:13

It seems like our popular culture

00:47:14

has had an inkling to that.

00:47:15

Because if you look at the movies that came out

00:47:17

between 1952 and 1962,

00:47:20

so many of the sci-fi movies

00:47:21

are about spores from outer space

00:47:23

and plants coming down.

00:47:24

And these are from very straight people who hadn’t taken psychedelics at all.

00:47:28

They were like tuning in to what was about to come 10 or 15 years later.

00:47:32

Well, I think, and I’m, so far as I know, pretty alone in this opinion,

00:47:38

that information actually, a very small percentage of information

00:47:44

is able to tunnel backward through time, that there is a very small counterflow to the forward movement of causal efficacy.

00:48:04

is going into that hyper-dimensional place and picking up this thin, thin signal from the future

00:48:09

and tuning it in.

00:48:11

This is why prophecy and seership and all of that

00:48:16

has to do with states of ecstasy and intoxication.

00:48:21

One way of viewing all religion and all spiritual metaphor making is as an

00:48:33

anticipation of the future. These Western religions have this apocalyptic transformation

00:48:41

built into them almost as a self-fulfilling prophecy in other words they

00:48:48

believe the world is going to end because the world is going to end and since the melting of

00:48:55

the glaciers people of sufficient sensitivity have heard through a vast wall of stochastic noise coming from the future the thin, reedy broadcast

00:49:08

station of the true vision of the future. And this seems to be one of the things that you can do

00:49:16

with these psychedelics is tune this in. You know, it’s a cliche, and I’m sure you’ve heard it, that artists are society’s antenna for change,

00:49:28

that artists are supposed to be somehow more sensitive than the rest of us, and they pick up

00:49:37

the new design forms, the evolving aesthetic canons, and then translate it into society for the rest of us.

00:49:45

Well, that gains a little more bite if you substitute shaman for artist

00:49:51

and realize that this may not be a metaphor.

00:49:55

It may not be simply because they pursue bohemian lifestyles

00:50:00

and are willing to accept poverty for a life of free thinking and so forth,

00:50:05

that isn’t what’s allowing an anticipation of the future.

00:50:09

What’s happening is there truly is an anticipation of the future.

00:50:15

And visionaries like William Blake or the author of Revelations, are actually people who,

00:50:25

by virtue of some fortuitous confluence of circumstance,

00:50:30

space, time, and genetic constitution,

00:50:34

are able to draw these messages out.

00:50:37

What is startling is that apparently

00:50:40

this is fairly ordinary in psychedelic states.

00:50:46

That, in fact, one way of thinking of psychedelics is

00:50:51

you begin to move through time when you put them into your life.

00:50:58

I don’t mean while the trip is happening.

00:51:02

I mean ever after.

00:51:05

I mean, if you’re living with a 1960s-style mind

00:51:09

and you have a strong psychedelic experience,

00:51:12

you will come down with a 1970s mind

00:51:15

or perhaps a 2040-style mind.

00:51:19

Mind is a temporal style.

00:51:25

It’s important to have this information

00:51:28

and to have it at your fingertips.

00:51:32

People, the compartmentalization

00:51:35

between areas of knowledge that impinge on this

00:51:39

always amazes me.

00:51:41

I mean, you get psychologists

00:51:44

who don’t know what an MAO inhibitor is. You get people combining things without knowing how drug synergies work. You get people, you know, just not informing themselves on the importance of setting, dosage, psychic predisposition, so forth and so on,

00:52:11

all vital matters that can impinge on how an experience develops.

00:52:21

And if you will take the time to inform yourself you will feel

00:52:26

much more sure of what you’re doing and that in itself can alleviate to

00:52:32

confusion and negative reactions well so then I thought what I would do is sort

00:52:42

of go around the world and talk about these things a little

00:52:47

to give you an idea of what is available,

00:52:49

what’s on the menu.

00:52:52

And then we’ll take a little break,

00:52:54

a very short break,

00:52:56

and then come back and talk about it.

00:53:00

Sure, absolutely.

00:53:01

Did I hear you correctly

00:53:03

that the liquid DMSO,

00:53:08

drinking five to seven ounces a day for five days precipitates a psychedelic experience?

00:53:17

No, did I say DMSO?

00:53:19

That’s what I was wondering. Is it DMSO?

00:53:21

No, it isn’t DMSO. If if i said that i didn’t mean to it’s di ethyl di

00:53:27

dimethyl acetamide oh i thought you said sulfoxide i may have said sulfoxide dimethyl acetamide

00:53:37

and i can show you the record here you just well i’m raving you just look it up in there

00:53:42

find it and satisfy yourself.

00:53:45

Sure.

00:53:46

Yeah.

00:53:46

Before you start, could you explain the difference between psychoactive, psychotropic, and psychedelic?

00:53:50

Because I don’t understand what they mean.

00:53:52

Yeah, if I can.

00:53:55

Psychoactive means exactly what it implies,

00:53:59

that you can detect this compound as a higher cortical experience.

00:54:05

That’s all.

00:54:07

I mean, to my mind, a higher cortical experience is a shift of mood,

00:54:14

depression, elation, acute hearing, sensitivity to noises.

00:54:22

All of these things could be classed as psychoactive reactions

00:54:27

to a compound. Psychotropic is a word that I’ve never been very fond of, and it sort

00:54:35

of came in late. Psychedelic, which is a fairly maligned word but was coined by the psychiatrist Humphrey Osmond

00:54:47

means simply mind manifesting

00:54:53

and I like that because it’s phenomenologically neutral

00:54:58

now some people have tried to push the word entheogen

00:55:02

for these things

00:55:04

meaning literally God inducing to push the word entheogen for these things,

00:55:08

meaning literally God-inducing.

00:55:10

But to my mind,

00:55:12

this carries a huge amount of ideological freight

00:55:14

that we may not wish to buy into.

00:55:17

I mean, maybe it’s God-inducing,

00:55:19

maybe it isn’t.

00:55:20

But psychedelic,

00:55:23

meaning mind-manifesting, is pretty good.

00:55:27

And then if all of these make you uncomfortable,

00:55:30

you can just fall back on a completely phenomenological description

00:55:34

and call them consciousness-expanding drugs.

00:55:38

But there are drugs that I would not, for instance, I don’t consider,

00:55:43

well, I certainly don’t consider alcohol a psychedelic, but clearly a psychoactive.

00:55:52

Well, marijuana is one of these things that’s so widely variant, both in how people react to it and how strong it can be.

00:56:01

I would call MDMA a psychoactive drug, not a psychedelic drug.

00:56:07

And then I use the word hallucinogen a lot. And a lot of people don’t like that, even

00:56:15

people in the field, and say, well, hallucinogen seems to imply that it’s an illusion, but not in my mind. I don’t hear that.

00:56:25

I’m fascinated by hallucinations.

00:56:29

I mean, to me,

00:56:30

that is the sine qua non

00:56:32

that you’re getting somewhere,

00:56:35

I guess because it’s just

00:56:36

my philosophical biases.

00:56:39

But a hallucination,

00:56:41

it’s such an extraordinary concept,

00:56:43

isn’t it?

00:56:44

To see something which isn’t there.

00:56:46

And I don’t mean to misread a surface so that you think it sticks into the room,

00:56:53

which in fact sticks out of the room or something.

00:56:56

I mean seeing something that is not there.

00:56:59

And then that divides into two classes.

00:57:03

Seeing an ordinary object

00:57:05

which is not there

00:57:07

and I think this is what most people think a hallucination is

00:57:11

here is a bicycle

00:57:12

is it real or not

00:57:14

the drug crazed victim cannot tell

00:57:18

but most hallucinations are of things

00:57:22

which can only be hallucinations, because that’s what they are, you know.

00:57:29

And so they have this aura of the unexpected and the other and the intrusive alien-ness.

00:57:38

People have claimed to me that they have seen objects which are not there, which are completely ordinary.

00:57:42

that they have seen objects which are not there,

00:57:44

which are completely ordinary.

00:57:49

That is more typical of accounts of detour users,

00:57:54

people who take high molecular weight tropanes,

00:57:57

such as occur in gymson weed and those kind of things.

00:58:01

But my brief experimentation with that is it is what I call a deliriant rather than a psychoactive.

00:58:08

I mean, when you take the tour, you are so messed up that you can’t, you literally lose

00:58:14

all discrimination.

00:58:16

Yeah, belladonna.

00:58:17

You can’t tell exactly where you are.

00:58:21

You can’t tell thinking about being somewhere from being there. Well, you’re

00:58:27

in no shape to undertake a spiritual quest if you’re that discombobulated. So what I

00:58:36

like are the things which do not destroy what I call core functions. In other words, there is still an evidence-gathering, observing mind left intact,

00:58:50

and the disruption of perceptual input, if you want to put it that way,

00:58:59

is pretty much confined to the visual cortex,

00:59:03

and then to the metaphor-forming capacity that is relating to the visual cortex and then to the metaphor

00:59:05

forming capacity that is

00:59:07

relating to the visual cortex

00:59:09

but I don’t like

00:59:11

things which confuse you

00:59:13

which impair judgment

00:59:16

what about

00:59:18

sativa divinera

00:59:19

salvia divinorum

00:59:21

well that’s

00:59:24

an obscure one

00:59:26

about which not much is known

00:59:28

although in the past year

00:59:30

they’ve learned the absolute chemical

00:59:32

characterization of the psychoactive

00:59:34

compound which is called

00:59:36

salvorine alpha

00:59:37

more work has to be done

00:59:42

anthropologists

00:59:44

who have taken it with Indians in Oaxaca

00:59:48

describe a very intense experience.

00:59:53

When we grew it in Hawaii

00:59:54

and took it exactly the way these people said to do it,

01:00:00

it was an experience,

01:00:02

but it was not clear whether it was psychedelic

01:00:07

or merely so

01:00:08

physiologically active

01:00:10

in such a complex way

01:00:12

that you couldn’t tell exactly what was going on

01:00:14

the impression

01:00:15

which was not mine

01:00:17

but Kat’s

01:00:20

and a beloved Dean

01:00:22

they both experienced uh flow they described the experiences as though

01:00:32

you were lying in a dirty ditch with this cold fluid flowing from the top of your head to the

01:00:40

bottom of your feet and where this kind of cold clammy fluid encountered energy

01:00:47

obstructions in your body it would wash them away but it was a kind of vertigo with nausea with

01:00:57

i mean it was a complex uh experience but it was not largely mental.

01:01:06

It was more a revisioning of the body image.

01:01:10

And this is another one of these things where no research has been done.

01:01:16

It isn’t illegal, salvia divinorum,

01:01:19

but you’re not going to do your career any good to get tangled up with this.

01:01:24

So consequently, it’s pretty much left alone.

01:01:27

Salvorin alpha is extremely unstable and breaks down within 12 hours.

01:01:33

So that indicates it’s probably a polyhydric alcohol or an isoquinone or something like that.

01:01:39

It’s not an indole.

01:01:42

Yeah.

01:01:43

I’m curious.

01:01:44

And Watson talks about

01:01:45

entheans versus hallucinogens,

01:01:47

and he’s really against the word

01:01:49

hallucinogen.

01:01:51

Yeah, he’s the one who proposed

01:01:52

entheogen.

01:01:53

Entheogen, right.

01:01:54

And so,

01:01:56

because his theory was, I guess,

01:01:57

that he thought that

01:01:58

a hallucination was something

01:01:59

that wasn’t there completely,

01:02:01

and he thought that the experience

01:02:02

on the soma or the mushroom

01:02:03

was something that you actually are experiencing, so it’s not a hallucination, it’s real.

01:02:09

Yeah, that was what he said. But if you actually look at the etymology of the word hallucination,

01:02:17

what it’s come to mean in English is a delusion. A delusion. But what it really means

01:02:25

in the original language

01:02:27

is to wander in the mind.

01:02:31

That’s the meaning of hallucination,

01:02:33

to wander in the mind.

01:02:35

Well, that’s a pretty good

01:02:36

operational description

01:02:38

of what’s happening.

01:02:39

And then when you add in

01:02:40

the visual component,

01:02:43

I don’t know.

01:02:45

It’s hard for me to imagine

01:02:46

how someone could undervalue hallucinations

01:02:49

if they had had them.

01:02:51

Yeah, it sounds like it was reacting to the 60s hoopla

01:02:54

a lot, the hoopla over LSD

01:02:58

and the misreading of what these experiences really were, too.

01:03:01

Well, these guys were very frustrated

01:03:05

with seeing this thing

01:03:08

turned into a social hysteria.

01:03:11

And Wasson, you know,

01:03:12

at times expressed great

01:03:14

unhappiness with Tim Leary’s

01:03:16

approach and hated

01:03:18

going to Mexico and seeing

01:03:19

these mushroom villages invaded

01:03:22

by graffiti-covered

01:03:24

vans of filthy freaks from Southern California

01:03:28

who were disrupting the local ecology.

01:03:31

And it was a kind of proprietary approach.

01:03:35

This thing belongs to anthropologists, to specialists.

01:03:41

Watson was very reticent to assess his own work.

01:03:46

Some of you may have seen Bob Forte’s interview with him

01:03:50

in that psychedelic issue of revision,

01:03:53

where Forte asks him,

01:03:55

how do you assess the historical impact of your work?

01:03:59

And he said, I’ll leave that to others to decide.

01:04:03

He didn’t want to deal with the question

01:04:07

of the potential impact on his own society.

01:04:11

He really looked at it as this exotic, foreign kind of thing.

01:04:16

These guys were cautious, this first generation.

01:04:20

Hoffman, Wasson, Schultes.

01:04:23

These guys are not stoners by any means.

01:04:28

I mean, their approach is cautious

01:04:29

and the psychedelic experiences can be counted

01:04:32

on the fingers of one hand in a lifetime.

01:04:35

So I’m not sure they ever realized the size of the tiger

01:04:39

whose tail they had seized.

01:04:44

Yeah.

01:04:45

The DMT and the frog, whatever it is,

01:04:49

how is that extracted?

01:04:50

I mean, how, that frog slime or whatever it is?

01:04:54

Toad.

01:04:55

Yeah, right.

01:04:56

Okay, now I want to know about that.

01:04:58

Well, I haven’t had the good fortune to be present

01:05:02

with the milking,

01:05:04

so I really couldn’t say,

01:05:06

but as I gather you put pressure on the back of the neck in two places

01:05:10

and this exudate emerges exactly where, I’m not sure,

01:05:16

and probably decency should safely, scarcely inquire.

01:05:23

And then it’s dried on sheets of glass and scraped up and packaged and so forth well let me start

01:05:31

through this and give you a notion of what is available whenever you talk about the the

01:05:36

distribution and cultural usage of hallucinogens the first thing that you come up against is a curious, unsolved problem in botany,

01:05:46

which is no one knows why this is,

01:05:51

and we would be grateful if somebody could figure it out.

01:05:55

But for unknown reasons,

01:05:57

there is a tremendous concentration of psychoactive plants on the South American continent.

01:06:04

of psychoactive plants on the South American continent. The South American continent has more known hallucinogens

01:06:08

than the rest of the planet combined.

01:06:12

Now, why is this?

01:06:13

After all, the climax tropical rainforests of eastern Indonesia

01:06:17

are at least as species-rich as the Amazon basin,

01:06:22

and yet not a single powerful hallucinogen

01:06:26

is known with certainty from the old world tropics.

01:06:31

All kinds of suggestions have been made

01:06:34

that actually there are psychedelic plants

01:06:38

common throughout the tropics of the old world,

01:06:41

but the cultures have lost contact with them

01:06:44

and forgotten them,

01:06:46

and hence our anthropologists have not discovered them.

01:06:50

Or something in the soil of South America.

01:06:54

Very improbable theory.

01:06:58

I was talking about this once in a workshop

01:07:00

and somebody raised their hand and said,

01:07:02

well, no problem.

01:07:04

Obviously that’s where the spaceship landed.

01:07:08

Good. Well, we’ve solved that problem.

01:07:11

Now we can move on.

01:07:12

North America is extraordinarily poor in hallucinogens,

01:07:18

perhaps the poorest of all continents,

01:07:20

so that the psychedelic phobia that Europe created against paganism was completely reinforced, or at least not eroded, by the colonization of the New World or of North America, because there were no plants here to challenge that. The North American Indians tend to ordeal

01:07:46

as a shamanic vehicle,

01:07:48

the sun dance thing

01:07:50

some of you may be familiar with,

01:07:52

or sonic driving,

01:07:54

which is worldwide

01:07:55

in shamanically oriented cultures

01:07:58

without drugs.

01:08:00

You should know

01:08:01

that not everyone agrees with me

01:08:04

that psychedelics are the sine qua non of shamanism.

01:08:12

That’s what Wasson thought, that you don’t have shamanism unless you have psychedelics.

01:08:18

If you have people calling themselves shamans and not using psychedelics,

01:08:29

shamans and not using psychedelics, then they are cut off from the older level of tradition and through ritual, drumming, ordeals, starvation, flagellation, they are creating near-psychedelic

01:08:38

or pseudo-psychedelic states. Now, a brilliant and respected commentator on comparative religion like Mercier Léod, who I quote whenever it suits my purpose, totally disagreed with this and said no. What he called narcotic shamanism, which means psychedelic shamanism, the choice of the word tells you that the guy had a problem.

01:09:08

Narcotic shamanism is decadent shamanism. And the flagellation, the starvation, the ordeals and the drumming, that’s the real shamanism.

01:09:16

And it’s only when the tradition is abandoned and decadent that a culture will turn to drugs.

01:09:23

and decadent that a culture will turn to drugs.

01:09:25

I maintain this is nothing more than he was a Romanian who became an academic in Paris.

01:09:31

I maintain that this is nothing more

01:09:32

than his Western cultural bias operating.

01:09:36

Also in his youth, he was pretty infatuated with yoga.

01:09:39

They will insist to you

01:09:43

that drugs are an inferior path.

01:09:46

However, any of you who are scholars of yoga

01:09:50

should know that all yoga is based on the yogic sutras of Patanjali,

01:09:56

2nd century BC Hindu Vedic commentator.

01:10:03

Hindu Vedic commentator. And Patanjali specifically says

01:10:06

there are three paths to the goal of yoga.

01:10:10

And they are control of the breath,

01:10:13

control of posture,

01:10:15

and light-filled herbs.

01:10:18

Says it right there.

01:10:20

Stanza 6 of the Yogic Sutra of Patanjali.

01:10:24

It’s never discussed again

01:10:26

basically in the entire exegesis of the yogic literature

01:10:30

the third path is never mentioned

01:10:33

well is that because it’s a secret tradition or what?

01:10:37

I don’t know

01:10:37

when you go to India

01:10:39

seeking these yogans

01:10:42

practicing these higher yogas

01:10:44

what you find are a bunch of guys smoking as much charas as they possibly can.

01:10:51

And the notion that you could do it without that,

01:10:54

it just gets a long laugh from everybody down around the burning guts.

01:11:00

I mean, they deal with it on a practical level.

01:11:03

I mean, they deal with it on a practical level.

01:11:12

Okay, moving out of drug-impoverished North America, or psychedelic-impoverished North America,

01:11:19

where there are more than 20 species of indigenous psilocybin-containing mushrooms,

01:11:27

but, and this is interesting, no evidence whatsoever for tribal or traditional usage.

01:11:34

In other words, in this northwest coast Indian complex, the Shimsham, Klingit, Nutka group, no reason to believe, other than our own predilection for romantic fantasy,

01:11:42

that these people were using mushrooms in pre-contact

01:11:47

times, and yet the mushrooms were there.

01:11:51

The complex that we’re most familiar with as a North American hallucinogen is in the

01:11:57

southwest of the United States, peyote, Lophophora williamsi, the peyotal cactus.

01:12:05

Now, the interesting thing here is we cannot find archaeological evidence of peyote use that is particularly ancient.

01:12:17

Peyote use in the southwest appears to be less than 500 years old.

01:12:22

to be less than 500 years old.

01:12:24

Before that,

01:12:26

what we find in Indian graves of the Tarahumara and so forth

01:12:28

are the seeds of Sephora secundifolia.

01:12:32

Sephora secundifolia

01:12:33

is a highly poisonous legume

01:12:37

that contains cysteine.

01:12:39

This is an example of

01:12:43

what we call not a psychedelic, but an ordeal poison.

01:12:48

Now, in certain parts of the world, this approach to spiritual growth has been taken,

01:12:52

most notably on the island of Madagascar off the coast of eastern Africa.

01:12:59

What is an ordeal poison?

01:13:01

This is a plant where you take it and you are so

01:13:06

convinced that you’re dying that you have an experience of self abandonment

01:13:15

getting straight surrender and then you live and you’re fine but you are absolutely convinced

01:13:26

that you’re dying

01:13:27

your heart pounds

01:13:29

or fibrillates

01:13:31

or you convulse

01:13:33

or you fall into deep coma

01:13:35

or you have tetanus in the limbs

01:13:39

whatever it is

01:13:40

and then you recover

01:13:42

well anybody can tell you

01:13:43

this is a kind of psychedelic experience

01:13:46

because you’re so damn glad you lived that you see everything in a new light you can be kind to

01:13:54

your children and love your wife and tolerate your relatives and people say well it made a new man

01:14:00

out of him well yes because he came so close to dying that he shed neurotic

01:14:07

behavior patterns but this is not a true psychedelic so what we’re assuming is

01:14:12

that about 500 or a thousand years ago sometime in that span the Sephora cult

01:14:19

was replaced by the peyote cult, which came from a much smaller usage area.

01:14:27

Then also in Southern California,

01:14:30

there were what were called the Tolaq religions,

01:14:33

religions of detour, intoxication,

01:14:37

initiation of young men by intoxicating them with detour

01:14:41

and leaving them in the wilderness to fend for themselves.

01:14:45

Again, this comes close to being an ordeal poison,

01:14:49

although it also has psychoactive properties,

01:14:52

but so confusing, such a deliriant,

01:14:56

that it bears no relationship to the true hallucinogens,

01:15:01

which, with the exception of mescaline,

01:15:04

I believe all fall into the

01:15:06

category of the indoles now mescaline is not an indole it’s an amphetamine

01:15:12

closely related to MDA and MDMA but it is a true hallucinogen at fairly high

01:15:19

doses the indoles which are this structurally related small family they seem to me to

01:15:27

be the true visionary ecstatic ins and I will mention as I go through the list

01:15:34

which ones are indoors and which ones are not well no the only one which is an

01:15:41

amphetamine is masculine so we need so we need… So we have indole and non-indole.

01:15:46

Indole and non-indole.

01:15:49

A kind of parallel phenomenon to the peyote cult of the Southwest is in the deserts of northwestern Peru.

01:15:57

There are very large columnar cacti in the genus Trichoceros that contain mescaline,

01:16:04

and they have been used for a long time, a lot longer than peyote. in the genus Trichoceros that contain mescaline.

01:16:08

And they have been used for a long time, a lot longer than peyote.

01:16:15

We have mocha ceramic dated to before 1000 BC,

01:16:20

which show, in fact, isn’t somebody wearing, yes, this gentleman has the T-shirt.

01:16:22

This is a Peruvian design.

01:16:29

Point out the, yes, that’s the chunk of San Pedro being held by this dwarf-like little demon.

01:16:35

This is a fang demon, mocha design, 1,500 years old.

01:16:46

Now, in central Mexico, we come upon the first of these large centers of hallucinogenic use in the cultural area in which the Olmec arose

01:16:51

were subsequently succeeded by the Maya

01:16:54

who were subsequently subjugated by the Toltecs.

01:16:58

And the plants that were in use in those situations

01:17:02

fall into two pretty well-defined categories.

01:17:06

First of all, psilocybin-containing mushrooms

01:17:09

of several species,

01:17:11

and second of all, morning glories

01:17:15

of at least two types, convolvulaceae,

01:17:19

which contain LSD-like alkaloids

01:17:22

active in the milligram range that are highly visionary.

01:17:28

And there’s considerable evidence in the Codex Vindobonensis and in some of the Mayan ceramics

01:17:35

that this was a culture that made a very important place for hallucinogens

01:17:42

and that it was the privilege of the priestly class and that their obsession with calendrics and astronomy and this

01:17:52

sort of thing was also somehow intimately connected to their interest

01:17:57

in the psilocybin mushrooms and again one of these botanical puzzles. Here is a cluster of 10 or 15 species in central Mexico of mushrooms,

01:18:10

and a culture builds itself around them.

01:18:14

A similar cluster of species on the northwest coast,

01:18:19

the culture seems to totally ignore it and have no use for it.

01:18:22

And nowhere else on earth are there clusters of species of psilocybin mushrooms

01:18:29

with a long history of use.

01:18:32

Naturally, the export of cattle throughout the warm tropics

01:18:36

has allowed the coprophytic mushrooms, the mushrooms which grow on manure,

01:18:41

to be spread throughout the warm tropics.

01:18:43

And then in places like England and France, you

01:18:46

get the occurrence of the diminutive psilocybin mushrooms, lanceata. But again, only the most

01:18:54

unconvincing evidence of traditional use. I mean, I am Irish Celtic. I would love to have somebody

01:19:01

come up with a bunch of evidence that ancient Celtic and Druidic art and magic was somehow related to mushrooms.

01:19:10

But to date, the efforts have been unconvincing to any skeptic.

01:19:15

It may still be there.

01:19:16

Perhaps in heraldic devices, someone should go back and study the escutcheon

01:19:22

of the families of medieval Europe and you do

01:19:26

find for instance the

01:19:27

Morel family

01:19:29

noble Italian family

01:19:32

mushrooms

01:19:33

on the family coat

01:19:36

of arms and other

01:19:38

families in France whose names

01:19:39

escape me

01:19:40

yeah

01:19:44

although that is a coincidence.

01:19:46

Well, I mean, not really.

01:19:47

Yeah, but still.

01:19:48

That name.

01:19:49

Will the sergeant at arm.

01:19:53

Okay, so,

01:19:54

oh, well, let me say something

01:19:55

a little bit more

01:19:56

about the Morning Glory Complex

01:19:59

because it’s very interesting.

01:20:03

LSD, discovered by Albert Hoffman in 1937 and so forth,

01:20:08

comes from ergot, comes from an organism called claviceps,

01:20:14

or claviceps paspale, which is a smut which grows on ergot,

01:20:18

a humbler organism.

01:20:20

You could hardly imagine.

01:20:22

I mean, this is basically yuck,

01:20:24

is how you would describe this

01:20:26

organism if you were to come upon it. It looks like a mistake because it’s just an amorphous,

01:20:33

slimy, black mess growing on certain cereal grains. One of the fascinating questions to

01:20:39

these chemists once they discover a new compound is to try and figure out, does it occur anywhere else in nature?

01:20:47

Some plant, some fish, some something,

01:20:49

and then you can form theories and judgments about evolutionary relationships.

01:20:58

So Albert Hoffman, the discoverer of LSD,

01:21:01

was amazed when carrying out analytical work for Gordon Wasson on magic

01:21:07

morning glory seeds that had been sent to Wasson from Schultes

01:21:11

he discovered the same compounds or very closely related

01:21:16

compounds as he had synthesized to make LSD

01:21:20

I’m going to slightly

01:21:23

jump around here now

01:21:25

and say that in India

01:21:28

there are 13 species of morning glory

01:21:33

you’re listening to the psychedelic salon

01:21:37

where people are changing their lives

01:21:39

one thought at a time

01:21:41

as you guessed the tape cut off, right?

01:21:47

As Terrence was saying that in India,

01:21:49

there are 13 species of morning glory that are psychoactive.

01:21:54

Now, if I was a good host,

01:21:55

I would probably play a little of next week’s tape

01:21:58

just to finish this current thought.

01:22:00

But instead, I’m going to wait with you until next week

01:22:03

to hear the rest of his world tour of psychedelic plants.

01:22:08

However, I don’t want you to think that this is some kind of a cliffhanger or something

01:22:12

because my hunch is that you probably already know almost everything he’s talking about right now.

01:22:18

But back in 1988, this was all really big news

01:22:21

because there weren’t many places you could go to learn this kind of information.

01:22:27

Before I forget, did you notice where at one point Terrence said he was going to cover a particular topic

01:22:34

but got interrupted by a question?

01:22:36

And from there he spun off in a completely new lecture for 10 or 15 minutes before getting back on course.

01:22:43

And his workshops were always like that.

01:22:46

It didn’t seem to matter whether the question was about botany

01:22:50

or chemistry or philosophy or any other topic.

01:22:53

The Bard McKenna was kind of like a man who was hardwired to the Internet

01:22:57

and knew quite a lot about a very wide range of topics.

01:23:01

What a unique person he was.

01:23:04

Okay, now for all of our fellow Saloners who are Greg Egan fans, geeks like me that is,

01:23:10

I hope you picked up on that little bit about seven minutes into his talk where Terrence says that maybe we are bumping up against the limit of our reason.

01:23:20

Now, doesn’t that sound just like the so-called people living inside the cyberspace construct that was also inside another database?

01:23:29

And I’m sorry if you haven’t yet read Permutation City.

01:23:32

It’s really an exceptional book.

01:23:34

Well worth your time, I think.

01:23:36

And our fellow salonners who have read it know exactly what I’m talking about here.

01:23:40

Interesting thoughts, huh?

01:23:42

On another topic, and I’m not sure where I read this, but

01:23:46

I remember someone talking about some new evidence about mushroom spores that

01:23:51

seriously calls Terrence’s theory about an extraterrestrial origin for them into question.

01:23:57

Maybe one of our fellow salonners will post something about that on one of the growreport.com

01:24:03

forums for us. And speaking of mushrooms,

01:24:06

just this morning I was listening to the Dope Fiends’ latest podcast, and there was some

01:24:11

discussion about the pros and cons of drinking mushroom tea versus eating them. However,

01:24:17

there was one method that wasn’t mentioned that I thought should also be covered. And by the way,

01:24:22

I’m only halfway through that podcast right now, so maybe this did get covered in the second part.

01:24:28

If so, I’m sorry for covering it again.

01:24:30

But in any event, if you aren’t listening to the weekly dopecast from dopefiend.co.uk,

01:24:37

I think you’re missing out on being connected with a continually expanding cast of characters,

01:24:43

some of whom even show up in my novel, by the way.

01:24:47

But getting back to my point,

01:24:49

here is something you might want to consider

01:24:52

about the ingestion of mushrooms.

01:24:54

If you eat them, no matter how well you chew them,

01:24:57

there will be some chunks of fungus left in your stomach,

01:25:00

and that can become uncomfortable.

01:25:03

Diffusing the mushroom spirit in tea, it

01:25:06

alleviates that problem, but it still tastes funky. However, reliable reports now indicate

01:25:12

that by first carefully weighing the required amount of dried mushrooms, they can then be

01:25:19

ground to a fine powder in a coffee mill. Then, if that powder is mixed in a mug of hot chocolate, well,

01:25:26

the word on the street is that not only is there no bad taste and little stomach discomfort,

01:25:32

but some people even believe that the chocolate actually enhances the shrooms.

01:25:37

And I guess that’s about all I have to say about that.

01:25:41

So let’s move on and hear what one of our fellow Saloners had to say about finding the others.

01:25:47

And this email comes from Sasha Z., who says in part,

01:25:51

Cheers for everything. Thanks to you, I have found the tribe.

01:25:55

I contacted a few people from the Grow Report about a festival that we run over here in the UK,

01:26:00

and ended up meeting a good two dozen members of the tribe at this year’s

01:26:05

Goxtock.

01:26:06

We also had four members play at the event.

01:26:09

S.E.B., who’s on Bebe’s podcast now and again, DJ’d for us and blew the canopy off the forest.

01:26:16

The man is a real talent, and we’ll be taking him to everything we do.

01:26:20

Kaplick played a fantastic improvised set for the Saturday headliner slot,

01:26:26

a rocking psychedelic chill mix.

01:26:30

Well, that’s great news, Sasha,

01:26:33

and please let me know in advance when your next event will take place,

01:26:36

and I’ll pass the word along to our fellow salonners.

01:26:40

Now, just two more things, and I’ll be out of here.

01:26:46

The first is to tell you about a really interesting video collection of Terrence McKenna videos,

01:26:48

many of which I hadn’t seen before.

01:26:55

And they can be found on Zoopy, Z-O-O-P-Y, zoopy.com, slash maniac.

01:26:59

And maniac is spelled M-A-N-E-Y-A-K.

01:27:04

And I’ll also put a link in the program notes for the show to that site. It’s kind of an interesting place.

01:27:07

My final comment has to do with Burning Man.

01:27:09

And as you burners are already aware, everything we plan for the burn is subject to change right up to the last minute.

01:27:17

But here are the current plans.

01:27:20

And instead of holding several ply logs all in one place,

01:27:28

Bruce Dahmer and I are going to take them on the road, so to speak.

01:27:33

And so far we are thinking about doing at least two or three of them in the afternoons and then holding one big extravaganza at night.

01:27:37

As our plans come into better focus,

01:27:40

I’ll fill in the details about the multimedia show we are planning for the 10 jumbo screens in our soon-to-be-announced location.

01:27:48

But for now, I’d like to read for you a little overview of our happening as conceived by Bruce Dahmer.

01:27:54

And here’s what he wrote.

01:27:56

Leary and McKenna come to Burning Man.

01:27:59

Hear ye, hear ye.

01:28:00

Y’all come on into the tent, for the main event is about to start.

01:28:04

It’s Tim and Terrence. Leary and McKenna, that is,

01:28:08

at Burning Man for their first time.

01:28:11

It’s dialogues, trialogues, and, well, this year it’s going to be one big plyologue,

01:28:16

where we bring back these ghosts from the past on the main stage at Entheon Village.

01:28:22

But wait, what do we see here?

01:28:26

A big magic bus is also pulling up, and yes,

01:28:28

it’s Kesey on the poop deck with

01:28:29

Cassidy behind the wheel.

01:28:31

And what an interesting assortment of psychedelic

01:28:34

explorers they have brought here to join us.

01:28:36

Huxley, Hoffman,

01:28:37

Ginsberg, and Lennon, to name just a few

01:28:40

I see filing off further and into

01:28:42

our big top here.

01:28:44

So it’s going to be a wondrous, magical mystery tour

01:28:47

as we bring together the Psychedelic Pantheon for the first time

01:28:50

at the event and to a community that they helped spawn.

01:28:54

However, it wasn’t before today that they have had the unique experience

01:28:58

of being here with us on the playa.

01:29:00

And we invite you to become a part of this experience.

01:29:04

Meet us for a multi-course meal of histories revealed,

01:29:07

weird theories posited, questions answered, answers questioned,

01:29:11

rare and revealing photos brought to light,

01:29:14

voices and video projected all around.

01:29:17

And expect the greatest secrets of life, the universe,

01:29:19

and all that is to come to light by dawn.

01:29:22

All of this and more will be brought to you by

01:29:25

cyber-technodelic shaman Damer and carnival barker Lorenzo.

01:29:30

Come on the appointed day and at the appointed hour

01:29:32

for a blend of spoken word performance, dance, audience participation.

01:29:37

In fact, you can address your questions to one of the two Ts,

01:29:41

or anyone else for that matter.

01:29:42

And also, there’s going to be plenty of room for radical self-expression.

01:29:47

It’s going to fill up fast, but an overflow video projection is going to be available,

01:29:51

so don’t be tardy.

01:29:54

So there you have it.

01:29:55

It’s going to be great fun to see how this actually turns out,

01:29:58

and by the way, we are going to do our best to capture as much of it as we can

01:30:03

for you to listen to here in the salon this fall when I get back from the burn.

01:30:08

Well, I guess that’s about all I have time for just now.

01:30:11

So, once again, I’ll close today’s program by reminding you that this and all of the podcasts from the Psychedelic Salon are freely available for you to use in your own audio projects under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Sharealike 3.0

01:30:26

license. And if you have any questions

01:30:28

about that, just click the

01:30:29

Creative Commons link at the bottom of the

01:30:31

Psychedelic Salon webpage, which you can

01:30:34

find at psychedelicsalon.org.

01:30:36

And that’s also where you’ll

01:30:37

find the program notes for this podcast.

01:30:40

And also, if you’d like to

01:30:42

download a copy of my novel in

01:30:43

audiobook format,

01:30:45

just go to genesisgeneration.us.

01:30:49

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

01:30:53

Be well, my friends.