675 - Psychedelic Law for the People

Program Notes

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Guest speakers: Gary Smith, Sonia Martinez, Saumel Saks

Psychedelics are becoming more mainstream, but the law hasn’t caught up with the culture when it comes to accepting psychedelic lifestyles. In this podcast, we discuss ways the law is changing around psychedelics and how this affects the community, with topics including:

* Decriminalization: What’s protected, what’s questionable, and what’s still risky?* Social Media & Psychedelics: What’s safe to say and do online, and where does being cautious still matter?* Law Enforcement: Is it true that psychedelic users are low-priority targets for law enforcement, and does this differ according to race, culture, and locality? What are best practices for individuals to ensure safety for themselves and their people?* Cognitive & Religious Liberty: What does the law really say about these commonly invoked topics, and how are psychedelic users protected or vulnerable in these areas?* When Things Go Bad: What do you need to know if you run into legal trouble?

About Our Panel:

Gary Smith is a veteran cannabis attorney and general counsel to the nation’s oldest non-Native American peyote church and the author of Psychedelica Lex, a pioneering text on the laws governing psychedelics and entheogens. A seasoned litigator, advisor, mediator and arbitrator, Gary focuses his practice on commercial matters, construction, real estate, cannabis and administrative law.

Gary is one of the leading cannabis attorneys in the state and was recently appointed to US News & World Reports list of Top 100 lawyers in Arizona. Notably, he served as amici counsel to the former Director of the Arizona Department of Health Services in the Arizona Supreme Court petition State v. Jones, which restored cannabis extracts and concentrates to legal status under the Arizona Medical Marijuana Act. He has authored numerous articles about cannabis law, and he is commonly invited to share his expertise with professional association and industry groups. Further, Gary is a founder and current president of the Arizona Cannabis Bar Association, an organization committed to educating lawyers and the public about cannabis law and responsible legislation. Guidant Law Firm

Gary Smith’s Psychedelica Lex Podcast

Sonia Martinez was recently appointed as a Judge Pro Tem for Maricopa County Justice Courts. For the past thirteen years, she has been the principal and owner of her own law firm in Mesa, Arizona. She also works in Indian Country and is licensed to practice in over 8 local tribal courts. She focuses her practice on representing tribal and non tribal members in their private family, dependency and criminal law matters. She has also been working with small businesses and tribal governments respecting issues with the Arizona’s Medical Marijuana Act since 2010, and is the Vice President of the Arizona Cannabis Lawyer’s Association. Sonia Martinez Law, PLLC

Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Three-dimensional, transforming, musical, linguistic objects.

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Alpha and Omega.

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Greetings from cyberdelic space.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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And right now I’m going to play a recording of a live salon that we held one week ago today.

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As you’ll hear, our guests that evening were three attorneys who have been actively working in the field of cannabis and psychedelic law.

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So without any further ado, here is Charles, who will introduce our panelists.

00:00:47 ►

will introduce our panelists. Well, first, I want to thank everybody for joining us here tonight on the Psychedelic Law for the People. We have an excellent panel of experts joining us,

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and I’m going to ask them to introduce themselves and their connection to psychedelic law. And we’re

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going to start with Gary Smith, who literally wrote the book on it. So Gary, if you can give

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us a bit of an overview of you and your work, we would really appreciate it.

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I’m just frightened that you introduced me as excellent. That’s like way too much pressure.

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Anyway, I did indeed literally write the book on the topic. So I am Gary Smith. I am,

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oh God, about a 30-year veteran attorney. I am a founding member of a law

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firm here in Phoenix, Arizona called Guidant Law. My partner Sam Sachs is with us tonight as well.

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And my very, very dear and good friend, fellow attorney Sonia Martinez is with us too,

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although she doesn’t work at Guidant because she doesn’t like us enough to work with us.

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Actually, let me jump in for a second. I’m a lawyer too or i i still have a license anyhow so

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uh let me just tell the audience that lawyers love to tease each other they’re they’re all

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smiling right now for those of you that can’t see the video so uh let me let me just say that

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lawyers have sense of humor too we’re not all just dull people. I’m sorry, Gary, go ahead. No, you’re spot on. And you’re right, by the way, the job is just so dark at times our humor

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skews in a very unusual direction. Anyway, besides being a lawyer here in Phoenix about,

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well, I guess a year and a half ago now, I wrote Psychedelic Elects, the country and maybe possibly

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the world’s first comprehensive legal

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treatise on the law of psychedelics.

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And that came about because I went looking for that book and I couldn’t find it.

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So I wrote it.

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And then because of pandemic, I ended up starting my own separate podcast by the same name,

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Psychedelic Elects, that supports the book.

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And it’s just every episode is an ongoing exploration of the question of psychedelics. And it’s all aimed at trying to air and vet out the truth from all of the lies and

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mysticism and propaganda that we’ve all been living with for the past several decades.

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So that’s pretty much what I’ve got going on these days.

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Well, we’re thrilled to have you with us. And Sonia, thank you for joining us. Could you tell

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us a little bit about your work and what connects you to the psychedelic world?

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Hey there. Thanks for having me. Sonia Martinez, criminal defense attorney in Mesa, Arizona. I’ve

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run my own law firm for 15 years now. I’m currently the vice president of the Arizona Cannabis Bar

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Association. So I handle a lot of cases dealing with quote-unquote

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drugs and other issues like that, not just as a criminal defense attorney, but also as a consultant.

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Various groups and individuals come to me to ask me about different things, including issues on

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psychedelics and what are some of the law enforcement repercussions, some of the things that they’re looking at and facing should they desire to make some decisions, if you will, in that regard. I am also a consumer of psychedelics,

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so I’m happy to speak a little bit about that and those types of issues, especially when they

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are dealing with attorneys. Thanks for having me. Sounds very brave to say that you’re also a consumer of psychedelics on this particular

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panel. And that raises really interesting questions about the status of your licensing

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as a lawyer that maybe we can get into in the main discussion. So thank you for bringing that up.

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Let me just put an exclamation point

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on how brave that is. 17 years ago when I started this podcast, I almost didn’t call it the

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psychedelic salon because the word psychedelic was so toxic at the time. And so, you know,

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you are beyond brave, Sonia. You’re one of my heroes for being able to stand up there.

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You’re right up there with Myron Stolaroff, who was honest about it his whole life.

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So bravo to you.

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I’m sorry, Charles.

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I didn’t mean to interrupt your flow here.

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No, I appreciate it very much.

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And Sam, you’re a partner with Gary.

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Can you talk a little bit about your work as well?

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Yeah, my connection to psychedelics is through Gary Smith, who wrote the book on it.

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I’m his partner in crime and law.

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I do mostly commercial litigation and personal injury insurance issues.

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So Gary, I think, thought of me for this because of my insurance expertise and knowledge in terms of some of these questions have to do with risk and how that works.

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And so that’s my connection.

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Thank you for that. And I guess, you know, getting into the heart of it, and I want to

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come back to this at the very end, but let’s assume that somebody a year from now, two years

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from now has just landed in some hot water related to psychedelics and they need to figure out

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what to do because they’re in trouble what’s

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your first advice for that situation that person in that situation who do you want to grab this is

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so yeah that’s kind of a criminal defense question so first and foremost there is a four letter phrase I use S T F U shut the fuck up. And that’s as respects law

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enforcement, but also as respects your quote unquote friends, your colleagues, if you will,

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cause it could very well have been your friends or your colleagues that have kind of, um, put you,

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um, in a position where you were more likely to be looked at and therefore

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arrested. So first and foremost, please, as savvy as some of you are, as educated and smart as some

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of you are, law enforcement officials are a lot smarter than you when it comes to interviewing

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techniques. I will tell you that hands down. Some of you may be fantastic at, you know, being smart in so many ways, but please, ST a police officer and we were chatting about exactly this. And I assure you, police train in interrogation techniques. They train in not merely how to interrogate you, but also how to phrase questions, how to get you to agree with them.

00:07:23 ►

They will put words in your mouth and get you to agree with them. So what Sonia says, shut the fuck up. Yeah. Shut the fuck up.

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And then you come to me when you didn’t shut the F up or you go to Sonia if you didn’t,

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and then we have to fix it is the problem. Yeah. Yeah. And, and by the way, shut the fuck up

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doesn’t mean just stop talking. It means no Twitter postings, no Facebook postings, no social media, nothing.

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Because just because it didn’t come out of your mouth doesn’t mean it won’t be attributed to you.

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And I will say one thing in the civil arena where you don’t have, you’re not necessarily facing a criminal penalty.

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One thing that’s important to do besides what Sonia said is also don’t lie.

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Do not cover up things.

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Do not delete things.

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The cover-up is worse than the crime a lot of times.

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God forbid if you’re in a situation where, you know, if you’re in a car and you hit somebody, do not leave the scene.

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That makes it much, much worse.

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They will find you.

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much, much worse. They will find you. You are much better off dealing with the situation,

00:08:31 ►

being honest and accepting it than trying to run and delete and destroy evidence.

00:08:36 ►

Yeah. And let this one blow everybody’s minds if you didn’t know this already. Sonia, this is a question for you, which I already know the answer to. Can police lie to you?

00:08:42 ►

Oh, stop it. Of course they can’t.

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lie to you? Oh, stop it. Of course they can’t. Absolutely. Police lie all the time in order to get people to say things. And they do. And like Sam said, actually destroying evidence is a whole

00:08:56 ►

new and separate charge. I’ve had people call me from, you know, the restroom of a casino saying,

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hey, cops forgot to search me, but

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they’re searching my car, but they forgot to search me.

00:09:07 ►

And what should I do with all this, all these fentanyl pills in my pocket?

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I mean, I’m doing flush.

00:09:16 ►

Well, what is the answer?

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I don’t think that we can assume that the listeners can know that.

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So what is the answer, Sonia?

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listeners can know that. So what is the answer, Sonia? As an attorney, I can never, ever, ever,

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ever, ever advise clients to break the law. So let me give that as an answer.

00:09:36 ►

Yeah. Yeah. At that point, the cell phone call turns to, who it is? Who it is?

00:09:46 ►

So that leads into the next question, because there are certain limits as to what a lawyer is allowed to advise, and everything that we’re talking here is both sensitive and not necessarily legal advice,

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but what are the boundaries that an individual should be aware of when they’re engaging with

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a lawyer to help them in these areas? Well, I wouldn’t use the word boundaries when engaging

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with a lawyer. That’s actually one of the weird few places where you really shouldn’t have boundaries. In point of fact, we desperately, as your lawyer, need you to be completely forthright and honest with us and give us all the details.

00:10:25 ►

you give us and information generally is the scope of our tools. So the more you hold back from us, and the more you, God forbid, lie, which shockingly happens all the time with clients,

00:10:31 ►

the more you undermine our work and thus undermine yourselves.

00:10:37 ►

Yeah, Gary and I talk about it a lot. The one thing that the attorney-client privilege protects

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is probably one of the strongest privileges there

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are. In fact, a lot of times that’s the shield that Sonia needs is the attorney-client privilege.

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And it’s designed to do exactly that. It allows you to be completely forthright

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and honest with your attorney. If you have a good attorney, even if we can’t advise you like that

00:11:02 ►

situation in the toilet, we cannot tell you that you can flush these pills and they probably will never trace that back to you.

00:11:10 ►

That is true.

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We cannot advise you to break the law or do something unethical, but we can tell you what the law is.

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We can tell you what we’ve seen in other cases, and it’s up to you to make a decision.

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Obviously, we counsel people to follow the law

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and to be honest, but not every situation are people honest. Not every situation is there,

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you know, sometimes there’s unlawful activity, and that’s just the reality. I mean,

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Sonia does this probably all day, even more than we do. Yeah, by the way, since we’re already

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diving into the deep lawyerly information here, I should probably say, if we hadn’t said it already and we

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didn’t, although we’re lawyers, this is all for general information purposes only. Nobody here

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should be thinking we’re giving anybody their specific advice that they’re looking for here.

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This is just general conversation. We are happy to talk to you about your particular circumstance,

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but please contact us offline. Let’s make a proper

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appointment and do a private confidential conversation so that you’re covered by this

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attorney-client privilege that Sam just alluded to. But for today, for the salon, this is general

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purpose only. Nobody leave thinking that we gave you advice. Thanks for that, Gary. And that pulls

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us back into the broad overview of, can you outline for us what is the current status with regard to psychedelics in the law?

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There are some state and local jurisdictions that are decriminalizing some psychedelics.

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Many of us here are supporters of MAPS.

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They’ve been doing a lot of work to reschedule other psychedelics, while the federal posture seems to remain full prohibition.

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So it sounds like a pretty murky landscape out there.

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Can you define for us what the current standing is with regards to the law and psychedelics for the layperson?

00:12:55 ►

Sure, sure. I’d be happy to.

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And I bet Sonia and Sam will have some comments as well.

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First, the easy way to approach this is, yeah, psychedelics, still illegal,

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same as they were yesterday, probably still going to be illegal tomorrow too.

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So everything you always thought you couldn’t do, yeah, you still can’t. But that being said,

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there are some jurisdictions around the country at the state and city level that are starting to

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amend and modify and relax their own local laws.

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But that’s only good within those jurisdictions.

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And even then, it could be really, really minute, like a city like Denver, for example,

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which would mean that in theory, still state, county and federal police agencies could all

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still very much get involved and pursue whatever it is they’re going to pursue against you.

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So it’s at best like a calico cat

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right now. And it depends on the substance. Like for example, cannabis. Cannabis is technically a

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mild psychoactive, so we could lump it into the psychedelic pile if you wanted to. And if you look

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around the country, I think we’re down to, what, three states left that haven’t modified their cannabis laws in some form or fashion.

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But the other states have.

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So pretty much across the country, cannabis in some iteration is acceptable, but yet still remains federally illegal.

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spending rider that’s attached to the federal spending bills that still prevents the federal government from pursuing prosecutions of individuals who are within states with well-regulated

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cannabis programs. But make no mistake, if you’re falling outside that well-regulated program,

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you’re 100% still subject to federal law enforcement. Sonia, anything you want to expand on that?

00:14:43 ►

Sure. You know, so one of the things as part of my intro, I said,

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is I’m a consumer of psychedelics. And specifically what I was referring to was my buddy, Mr. Peyote.

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So Mr. Peyote and I have been friends for quite a while. And in Arizona, the consumption of Peyote

00:15:00 ►

is actually lawful if you meet the requirements under the law. And the law requires

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that your use of peyote would need to be for bona fide religious purposes, an integral part of the

00:15:16 ►

religious, of your religious beliefs, and it needs to be done. And here’s a very important thing that’s part of the law.

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Your use of peyote needs to be consumed in a manner not dangerous to public health, safety, or morals.

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If your use and consumption of peyote does not fit within those requirements, it is a class six felony, punishable by at least a year in prison. So when I have consumed and had

00:15:49 ►

a good time with Mr. Peyote, I have done so through the Church of Wilcox, the Peyote Church

00:15:56 ►

of Wilcox, where I have to sign an affidavit, notarize an affidavit, attesting to my bona fide religious use. I am personally a member of

00:16:08 ►

the Pasquayaki tribe, but I’m not going to pretend that it is a traditional Pasquayaki

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ceremonial thing that I do. I do it for my own personal religious beliefs in accordance with Arizona law on peyote. So folks, I think one of

00:16:29 ►

the things that we’ll be talking about as part of the bigger picture today is also the politics of

00:16:34 ►

it all, what I call political science and what I refer to as that last part of the use of peyote

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being lawful in Arizona, that is the consumption being not dangerous to public health,

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safety, or morals. So thanks. And what I’ll say is there’s a very complicated,

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complex landscape that Gary outlined, but I think we’ll get into this soon. There’s also

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a sort of trailing what society, how society views it, how police officers view it.

00:17:06 ►

So that, you know, it’s the equivalent of a busted taillight.

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Let’s say it becomes legal.

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It’s a busted taillight that lets them target you in some ways.

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Or not target you, but just they still have the worldview in a certain way.

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Despite the fact that technically maybe it’s not legal or maybe it’s a lower level offense

00:17:31 ►

than it used to be, that doesn’t mean people might think that, you know, users of it might think, oh, this is fine.

00:17:34 ►

That’s not necessarily what it means in the practical reality of it.

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And that raises a really good point that is a bit vague for some people, which is what’s the difference between decriminalization and legalization? What activities are less risky than others if you’re in a decriminalized environment?

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Depends on the environment.

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And it depends on what law they pass.

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Like, for example, in the last general election, District of Columbia had an initiative on its ballot that passed that deprioritize law enforcement, which is a form of

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re-regulation or decriminalization. But it doesn’t mean it’s off the books. It just means that

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police are looking at other crimes as more important, and thus they will deprioritize

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pursuit of psychedelic crimes. But it’s still technically on the books.

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Same with the example I gave you a moment ago with the federal spending riders that have this attachment on them that says,

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hey, federal dollars are not to be spent on federal cannabis law enforcement in states with well-regulated cannabis programs.

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Still very much on the books, but still also at the same time not enforced.

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still also at the same time not enforced. So unless you have a true rescheduling or, God forbid, descheduling of these substances, they’re always going to be in some channel of

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regulation and also potentially, if not always, in some channel of criminality.

00:19:00 ►

So let’s push on that a little bit. So I live in San Francisco, and I’m adjacent to Oakland, California, where there’s decriminalization of psychedelics. And I’ve seen the open sale of psychedelics at certain events that are open to the general public, and people are unconcerned about that. Should they be?

00:19:24 ►

Oh, I think so. I think, well, it’s yes and no. I mean,

00:19:28 ►

your risk tolerance. I mean, really, because again,

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you’ve got multiple jurisdictions all layered on top of each other that are,

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are physically or virtually present, even though you may not be aware of it.

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So, you know, at your Oakland level,

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are your Oakland police going to come in and bust you? No, because you have an Oakland

00:19:48 ►

ordinance that says no. But didn’t the police sell it to you in the first place?

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No, they resold it after lifting it off of somebody else in the parking lot.

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Because, you know, that’s how you do it. But, you know, you’re at that same festival.

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Yeah, you know, Oakland police would theoretically be the predominant police force you’re worried about.

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But look, you could still have state police there or federal agents.

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You just don’t know.

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You know, DEA does have a bit of a reputation for infiltrating organizations.

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We see this with religious groups in particular.

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organizations. We see this with religious groups in particular. In point of fact, we had DEA infiltration here in Arizona of the YAHE assembly down in Tucson. So it really happens all the time.

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So, you know, I know everybody’s looking at me to say, oh, it’s okay, but I can’t say that.

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The bottom line here is getting to is if it’s unlawful, it’s unlawful.

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And if your choice, I mean, you do things unlawfully every day.

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When you drive, you may make a left turn on a yellow when you’re not really supposed to.

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Is it that level?

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It’s probably not that level.

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It’s probably something greater.

00:21:00 ►

And like Gary’s saying, there may be other people around as well.

00:21:17 ►

And like Gary’s saying, there may be other people around as well. But again, it’s the milieu that you’re in where, you know, you have to look at it and say, is this openly happening everywhere? Do I want to participate in it or not? I mean, it’s just say he had a very colorful life that involves some gang activity and other

00:21:27 ►

things. And he had this great phrase. He said, when you’re up to something, make sure you’re

00:21:32 ►

doing nothing, if that makes sense. Sonia, I saw you wanted to get in there.

00:21:40 ►

So one of the things that I always think of, and, and, and, and this is true with the cannabis industry as well, is I always encourage the safe and responsible use of substances.

00:21:54 ►

I don’t think there’s, you know, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with substances so long as there’s the safe and responsible use of it. And that, that, that means a whole lot, right? So when you ask, for example, should we be concerned about

00:22:06 ►

the open sale of psychedelics, i.e., for example, mushrooms at an event? When you ask, should we

00:22:13 ►

be concerned? Are you talking about immediate concern, long-term concern? What kind of concern

00:22:19 ►

from people potentially acting out, having a bad reaction to people driving and having a bad reaction, you know, in the middle of driving, all of a sudden their acid kicks in and the road looks like it’s, you know, Pac-Man.

00:22:33 ►

They’re in the Pac-Man game all of a sudden. For example, are you talking about those concerns?

00:22:47 ►

talking about the, for example, I’ve known individuals who have successfully treated themselves with small dosing of mushrooms, for example. I’ve also known people who have

00:22:55 ►

mental, significant mental health issues, for example, diagnosed bipolar, who do not use their medication decide to then on their own without consulting,

00:23:07 ►

without any real help, then utilize psychedelics like mushrooms for treatment, and then things go

00:23:15 ►

sideways. I practice family and dependency law as well, where the state takes children away,

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and I cannot begin to tell you the hundreds of cases

00:23:26 ►

I’ve dealt with where individuals have been institutionalized for weeks at a time because

00:23:35 ►

of the unsafe and irresponsible use. So my focus is always on the unsafe and irresponsible use.

00:23:43 ►

Most people that I know are very safe with their use of

00:23:46 ►

psychedelics and other mind-altering substances, but there are definitely people who are not,

00:23:52 ►

and that’s what we should be concerned about. Can you unpack that a little bit more, Sonia?

00:23:57 ►

What would qualify, in your view, as safe and responsible use? What are some best practices

00:24:02 ►

people should be onboarding here?

00:24:06 ►

So best practices,

00:24:08 ►

and those are all great questions.

00:24:10 ►

I think a lot of us could chime in on this,

00:24:14 ►

but in terms of best practices,

00:24:15 ►

it depends on who you are and what’s going on.

00:24:16 ►

For example, I speak to a lot of parents

00:24:17 ►

because a lot of the work that I do

00:24:19 ►

is working with a lot of parents.

00:24:21 ►

So I’m always telling parents

00:24:23 ►

to be mindful mindful to be responsible

00:24:25 ►

in terms of if you’re a parent and social media i know we’ll talk about it but if you’re a parent

00:24:30 ►

it’s probably not smart of you to post a lot on social media about uh consumption of of drugs

00:24:37 ►

legal or otherwise just because those are things that are used against parents a lot all the time

00:24:43 ►

um you have to look at why you are consuming this substance.

00:24:47 ►

Again, for example, a friend of mine who was diagnosed bipolar with many prior long-term

00:24:54 ►

episodes of manic depression decides, oh, I just don’t want to take meds and then starts

00:25:00 ►

to use mushrooms and then ends up for months institutionalized.

00:25:08 ►

starts to use mushrooms and then ends up for months institutionalized. And so you want to,

00:25:14 ►

again, not necessarily, I mean, there’s so much to look at. So look at why you’re consuming,

00:25:19 ►

what is your intent and purpose? Again, if you’re a parent, there’s all sorts of things like not exposing your children, making sure that you keep your products away, locked up, et cetera, but also having age

00:25:25 ►

appropriate conversations with your children about what it is that you are doing. Never consume while

00:25:33 ►

driving, never, you know, be mindful of when you do consume and how much, how long after your

00:25:41 ►

consumption of whatever drugs you’re taking, you do start to drive and be wary

00:25:47 ►

of what are the possibilities you’re going to be pulled over, how far do you have to drive,

00:25:52 ►

all that sort of stuff. So those are just a few best practices, if you will. I’m big on not the

00:25:57 ►

driving thing. I’m big on the keeping it away from your kids thing, the mindful conversations,

00:26:02 ►

but also your intent. Again, I’ve seen some folks with

00:26:07 ►

mental health, in particular, not be safe and responsible. And that’s concerning for them.

00:26:13 ►

And if they have children, concerning for their children who don’t have a parent for sometimes

00:26:17 ►

months at a time, safe and responsible is the way to go. So I get, you know what, a good way to

00:26:23 ►

answer your question is, if it doesn’t feel

00:26:25 ►

right, it’s probably not right. Thanks. I think the not using a motor vehicle of any sort,

00:26:33 ►

whether it be a car, a bike, those motorized scooters, you get into, not only do you get

00:26:41 ►

yourself into trouble, I mean, you should not be doing this. You shouldn’t even be a passenger.

00:26:46 ►

You shouldn’t be anywhere near anything with wheels.

00:26:49 ►

I think that should be sort of, I think that is the black letter law, by the way.

00:26:52 ►

I think even when they decriminalize this stuff, anything with wheels, no matter what, it’s never going to be allowed.

00:27:01 ►

Until we get fully autonomous cyborgs driving our cars, which is still a little ways away, never going to be allowed until we get fully autonomous cyborgs driving our cars, which is still a little

00:27:05 ►

ways away, never going to be allowed, nor should it really, because you can not only hurt yourself,

00:27:10 ►

you can hurt other people, which in my mind, you know, I do this stuff all day.

00:27:15 ►

That’s the worst feeling is knowing that you hurt somebody else. I mean, it’s one thing to

00:27:19 ►

hurt yourself. It’s another thing to like hurt somebody else unintentionally. I mean, to me,

00:27:24 ►

it’s like a nightmare. And unfortunately I’ve lived it in my own family.

00:27:28 ►

And I know what that’s like and, you know, seeing the results of that.

00:27:31 ►

So I think that’s not getting anywhere close to any vehicle is,

00:27:36 ►

is where probably Gary, you might even know the stats on that.

00:27:39 ►

Isn’t that where most of these drugs other than selling and, you know,

00:27:43 ►

those kinds of level crimes,

00:27:44 ►

is it related to a motor vehicle’s got to be number one in terms of where people get into legal trouble now?

00:27:52 ►

You know, truthfully, I don’t know the motor vehicle psychedelic connection because it just doesn’t come up that much.

00:28:01 ►

Impair driving through like DUI or cannabis stuff.

00:28:04 ►

Sure.

00:28:04 ►

That happens all the time.

00:28:07 ►

By the way, if I can also riff off of what Sam said, there’s this whole parade of ick that can

00:28:12 ►

befall you if there’s like vehicles involved. And here’s just one example amongst many.

00:28:17 ►

So, you know, let’s say you’ve taken something and it’s impaired you and you’re not in your car,

00:28:23 ►

but instead you borrowed a friend’s car or your mom’s car and something bad happens.

00:28:29 ►

The liability cascade is going to spill over from you onto the person who entrusted you with the car and whether or not you know who that person is, the poor plaintiff who you harmed will.

00:28:42 ►

And then, you know, you’ve got the problem that there was an

00:28:46 ►

illegal substance involved. So now, oh my God, guess what? The insurance that you thought was

00:28:51 ►

going to cover you for the harm you just caused, yeah, your carrier is going to come back and say,

00:28:55 ►

hey, we don’t cover for illegal acts. So we’re really sorry you had that car accident and good

00:29:00 ►

luck to you, buddy. Hope it all works out because we’re not covering you for any of it. And that’s just a tiny, tiny taste of what can happen. Wow. And this opens up into the

00:29:12 ►

question of where the priority for law enforcement is. What you seem to be talking about is do your

00:29:20 ►

psychedelics responsibly make a special space for it, stay in that special space?

00:29:26 ►

When you go out into a car, when you go outside of that special space, then you’re inviting a different kind of scrutiny.

00:29:34 ►

So the question here is, is it true that psychedelic users are a low priority target for law enforcement?

00:29:46 ►

are a low priority target for law enforcement? Is it really mostly in these aggravating factors that we start to see cases or are there other factors that influence law enforcement making

00:29:51 ►

psychedelic use a priority? I think you’re going to get different answers from all three of us.

00:29:56 ►

I’ll go first. I guarantee Sonia having the criminal perspective will have a very different

00:30:01 ►

answer than me. But my take is, you know, psychedelics are definitely on the

00:30:06 ►

menu for police agencies if they want to. But as far as prioritization, statistically speaking,

00:30:12 ►

psychedelics are still pretty small as compared to, you know, like your illegal fentanyls out there.

00:30:17 ►

So, you know, the spectrum of probability suggests it’s a lower risk for psychedelics,

00:30:23 ►

but it’s never no risk. There’s

00:30:25 ►

always something out there. And also the police will prioritize based on the size. You know,

00:30:30 ►

are they hunting the one-off local, like, you know, mushroom forager in the forest,

00:30:35 ►

or are they looking for, I don’t know, the clandestine LSD labs inside of missile silos?

00:30:40 ►

They’re probably looking for the clandestine labs right but it doesn’t mean if they come up

00:30:45 ►

upon the mushroom forager they wouldn’t do something they might

00:30:49 ►

sonia baton is yours

00:30:53 ►

yeah so so listen at least in arizona i’m speaking to arizona i’m not sure but in other states but

00:31:01 ►

this is probably two in other states consistently since 2003ently since 2003, the focus in Arizona has been on the four most commonly used drugs,

00:31:12 ►

marijuana, meth, cocaine, and heroin.

00:31:17 ►

So those are the main focus because those are the most consumed.

00:31:21 ►

Those are the most readily available.

00:31:25 ►

the most consumed, those are the most readily available. And quite frankly, if you think of the things that people do on those drugs, and I’m not even talking about marijuana,

00:31:32 ►

gotta love me some marijuana, but the other drugs, they go out in public. So just as the host

00:31:37 ►

talked about, once you go out of your safe space, if you will. And you do that when you’re on coke and meth, you know,

00:31:45 ►

you’re on coke and meth and you’re out partying. Heron’s a little bit different, but, you know,

00:31:53 ►

when it comes to psychedelics, I know that at least, for example, with respect to my use of

00:31:58 ►

peyote, it is done at the church property in Wilcox on site. You stay there.

00:32:05 ►

There is, you know, you stay there for an entire weekend.

00:32:09 ►

You are in this very safe space.

00:32:11 ►

So the likelihood that something’s going to happen there, and that’s just an example.

00:32:17 ►

And that’s an example of when people are using psychedelics, they’re generally, I mean, and

00:32:24 ►

it’s all over the place, I guess you

00:32:26 ►

could say. A lot of people use psychedelics, mushrooms, things like that, and they like to

00:32:30 ►

be out in the forest. But in a general sense, it is not a low priority per se. It’s just that

00:32:39 ►

there’s a low consumption rate compared to the four main ones that the cops are focused with.

00:32:47 ►

Off the record, I was speaking to a fellow county attorney of mine who works in the drug unit,

00:32:54 ►

and interesting enough, this is not reported necessarily, but again, off record, there

00:32:59 ►

has been just a slight increase in psychedelic charges that are associated with some illegal

00:33:09 ►

sales of marijuana, the adult use marijuana in Arizona. So Arizona recently became adult use

00:33:16 ►

about a year ago. And of course, with that comes a lot of new black market right and um there has been just a very slight nothing

00:33:26 ►

crazy just a just a very slight couple of new cases with uh with an added allen element of

00:33:33 ►

psychedelics so uh there’s a query if you will then that brings a query um and i think gary

00:33:41 ►

spoke about this in his book too whether or whether or not, you know, with certain with the legalization of certain drugs, you then start seeing more of the still illicit substances kind of coming in to the foreground with the now legal substance.

00:34:03 ►

Make sense?

00:34:03 ►

With the now legal substance.

00:34:04 ►

Makes sense.

00:34:15 ►

So are you, are you proposing that because this one substance became more permissible legally that it freed up resources to go after other substances? Is that what I’m hearing?

00:34:16 ►

Or am I misunderstanding you?

00:34:19 ►

So just a little bit misunderstanding and I’m not making any conclusions or proposals, but there is a theory out there that with the legalization of marijuana, then follows the legalization of other drugs and or more consumers consuming. So now what is it, Gary? Is it Washington that now has people,

00:34:46 ►

people could literally do any drugs, I think?

00:34:51 ►

What is it?

00:34:51 ►

They could do almost any drugs now?

00:34:53 ►

Well, it’s Oregon had a decrim initiative

00:34:56 ►

that covered several, not everything,

00:35:00 ►

but several drugs are now decriminalized

00:35:03 ►

for personal purposes, personal use, personal supply.

00:35:07 ►

Okay, so yeah.

00:35:08 ►

California is currently flirting with that as well.

00:35:11 ►

Yeah, so that’s just kind of what I was referring to, that sort of theory dynamic of whether or not the marijuana wave of legalization is also creating a ripple effect of the new legalization of these other drugs. Again, that sounds like they’re safe

00:35:26 ►

and responsible use on the books in those jurisdictions. So let’s see how it goes there,

00:35:31 ►

huh? You know, I’m completely uneducated compared to you guys, Gary and Sonia on this, but my hunch

00:35:37 ►

is just because a police department strategically says, or even a state or a country says, this is a lower priority,

00:35:46 ►

depending on what you’re doing, it might not matter to you personally. A, it’s still illegal,

00:35:51 ►

right? Presumably, something may still be illegal. It doesn’t matter that it’s a lower priority.

00:35:57 ►

It’s still an illegal act that you’re doing. Are you going to get caught or not is another

00:36:03 ►

question. It goes to what Sona and I were talking about.

00:36:05 ►

What do you decide to do if you decide to do this?

00:36:09 ►

If you’re in your house, it’s decriminalized.

00:36:11 ►

You’re in your house, you’re on your couch and nobody’s around.

00:36:14 ►

You’re probably not going to get caught and it’s a lower priority.

00:36:18 ►

So presumably they haven’t spent a lot of money on people surveilling it.

00:36:22 ►

Right.

00:36:23 ►

Presuming you’re not selling it to people and creating this stuff and batching it up.

00:36:27 ►

It’s not going to get, it’s not, you’re not going to have the same chances of getting

00:36:31 ►

caught, but it’s still illegal versus it’s literally decriminalized.

00:36:36 ►

But again, we have a decriminalized, very dangerous substance.

00:36:39 ►

It’s called alcohol.

00:36:41 ►

And we know that if you get into, for example, a car and you drink an alcohol,

00:36:49 ►

now it becomes a criminal activity. So I don’t know, Gary, I mean, you probably know the laws.

00:36:55 ►

I’m assuming you still can’t drive on psychedelic substances, correct? At least not the beyond overdose, right? Yeah. I don’t know of a single jurisdiction whose impairment statute

00:37:02 ►

doesn’t contemplate multiple forms of impairment. Like,

00:37:06 ►

you know, we call them DUI laws because alcohol is the number one thing, but it’s anything that

00:37:11 ►

impairs you. Like if you have a cast on your leg and you can’t operate your vehicle because you’ve

00:37:16 ►

got a cast on your leg, that can be driving under an impairment. You could be charged that way.

00:37:21 ►

Sonia, have you ever seen anything at that extremity? No, not the cast on the leg thing,

00:37:26 ►

but we do in Arizona have a drug DUI and most jurisdictions have what’s known as the drug DUI.

00:37:31 ►

So yeah, we got that here for sure. And that’s what people are charged with. They are charged

00:37:36 ►

with an A1 impaired to the slightest degree from any intoxicating substance. And then what they

00:37:41 ►

call an A3, a drug DUI specifically. Yep.

00:37:46 ►

And let’s, I think a lot of people can understand the driving thing. Let’s talk about,

00:37:49 ►

you get into a fight, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re taking a psychedelic substance and you

00:37:55 ►

misinterpret something. Assault and battery is still, it could be a crime depending on the

00:38:00 ►

circumstances. Now you’ve committed a crime. You’re also tested, let’s say.

00:38:05 ►

And now you’ve also done a drug. What do you think is going to be the situation there?

00:38:10 ►

Do you think they’re going to not mention the drug use? I mean, they will criminalize or not.

00:38:16 ►

You’re now involved in a separate crime. Oh, yeah.

00:38:19 ►

And God forbid you’re busted while also in possession of a firearm, even though it had nothing to do with your drug use.

00:38:26 ►

You just incidentally have a firearm.

00:38:29 ►

Boy, you’ve just spooled yourself up for another felony charge just for having the gun.

00:38:33 ►

Stay home.

00:38:33 ►

So stay home.

00:38:34 ►

That’s the thing.

00:38:35 ►

Get your psychedelics, sit on the couch, and stay home.

00:38:40 ►

Now, let’s talk about a category of psychedelics and staying home, which is the rise of social media.

00:38:47 ►

And there’s so much happening on Instagram and Facebook around psychedelics right now where there’s this interesting line between what we’re doing here, which is protected by the First Amendment.

00:39:01 ►

It’s the overall expressive and informational discussion

00:39:05 ►

of psychedelics. But then there’s a lot of stuff where there might be some lines present. So I’d

00:39:13 ►

like to talk about what some of those lines are. I guess let’s start with what is protected speech

00:39:18 ►

in this context? Can you talk about your psychedelic use? What is safe to say and do online?

00:39:24 ►

And then I’ve got some

00:39:25 ►

additional questions after we just kind of cover that first baseline of what is absolutely safe to

00:39:30 ►

do in an online environment. Sure. Here again, you’re going to get a lot of different information

00:39:36 ►

from all three of us. First Amendment free speech. So first off, when we’re talking about First

00:39:43 ►

Amendment, we’re talking about a federal

00:39:45 ►

constitutional principle that limits and restricts what a government can do in regards to regulating

00:39:51 ►

speech. So as a general concept, online, for the most part, you’re free to say almost anything you

00:39:59 ►

want. There are some limits, of course. You know, the old world example is, you know, you can’t go and scream fire in a crowded theater and cause a panic. So there are restrictions even on air quotes free speech.

00:40:28 ►

heart because I agree with you. There is equal parts gross oversharing online and also equal parts really important and necessary sharing online. What do I mean by that? Here’s what I

00:40:34 ►

mean. We need to have a public discussion about psychedelics. It’s the only way to lever change

00:40:40 ►

is to get people talking about it. And I don’t mean inside of these echo chambers where we all already get it. It’s great that we amongst ourselves have these conversations,

00:40:49 ►

but we’re all at some level fans or at least open-minded enough. So we need to break these

00:40:56 ►

conversations out of our groups and go have them with people who aren’t like-minded. That’s how

00:41:01 ►

you lever change. But the problem with the oversharers is that they

00:41:05 ►

overshare. They put far too much information online that could implicate them in literal

00:41:11 ►

criminal acts. And here again, I don’t do criminal practice, nothing. And that’s partially why Sonia

00:41:16 ►

is here to talk about those experiences. But I can tell you in the civil arena, again, Sam is a

00:41:21 ►

personal injury lawyer. I’m a civil and administrative litigation attorney. And both Sam and I, even in the civil side of this, often cringe at the stuff that people put online.

00:41:31 ►

And I know in preparing for today’s episode, I had mentioned to you and Lorenzo both a true story about just one example for one of my cases where I had a client who had hired a contractor to do some build out on

00:41:46 ►

a commercial space for the client. And my client gave the contractor an $80,000 cash deposit.

00:41:52 ►

And the client never saw the contractor again. He just took the cash, ran, gone. Fine. I get hired.

00:41:59 ►

I do what I always do. And I start by looking at social media to see if I can find dirt on my

00:42:04 ►

opponent. And this idiot posted within a week after getting the money from my client, a picture

00:42:09 ►

of himself with his brand new cash paid for Harley Davidson motorcycle. And if you don’t think we

00:42:14 ►

didn’t take a copy of that and turn it over to the prosecutor’s office, oh boy, yeah, we did.

00:42:20 ►

And we find stuff like that all the time. Sam, I know this is a major issue in your universe. You want to talk about that a little bit? I mean, it’s that superficial, that bias, because they know that certain people might not, again, statistically in their view, whether it’s true or not, I don’t know, but they make assumptions about people.

00:42:52 ►

If you’re trying to get a life insurance policy and there’s pictures of you, you know, freebase jumping or whatever, you know, that is going to be deemed that you lied and didn’t share that with them because they asked you on a life insurance application. Do you skydive? Do you do dangerous activities? No, no, no, no, no.

00:43:10 ►

And meanwhile, there’s tons of pictures of you. This is what you do in your spare time.

00:43:13 ►

So not only will adjusters look at it, police enforcement, they’re not stupid. They will look

00:43:18 ►

at, they will look up somebody and they will find your connections and they will see it. I mean,

00:43:24 ►

we’re all kind of older

00:43:25 ►

on this panel. I guess I’m the youngest one here and I kind of miss the Facebook thing.

00:43:29 ►

So whenever I say this to clients, like you don’t have to post about this accident, for example,

00:43:36 ►

you don’t have to post and you shouldn’t post about the lawsuit. The reality is guys like this

00:43:42 ►

is the new generation is oversharing.

00:43:45 ►

And that’s just how it is.

00:43:47 ►

I mean, there’s literally there’s no way to tell them not to.

00:43:50 ►

You don’t exist if you don’t do it.

00:43:52 ►

So should you do it?

00:43:53 ►

No, it’s great.

00:43:54 ►

I don’t get even the why you want to do it.

00:43:59 ►

Right.

00:43:59 ►

I mean, Gary, we’ve talked about this.

00:44:01 ►

Like, why do you even have to share this?

00:44:04 ►

Yeah, I’m of the generation where it’s none of your business.

00:44:08 ►

You want to know something about me?

00:44:10 ►

Too bad.

00:44:11 ►

I don’t want you to know.

00:44:13 ►

Yeah, exactly.

00:44:14 ►

I don’t want you to know.

00:44:15 ►

I was raised that you’re not supposed to get into cars with strangers.

00:44:21 ►

This generation, you literally pay to do it.

00:44:24 ►

It’s not easy.

00:44:26 ►

Yeah, but so I think there’s a reality of it.

00:44:28 ►

Should you ever do it?

00:44:29 ►

I mean, I don’t think if you’re literally,

00:44:31 ►

everything is literally decriminalized

00:44:34 ►

and you feel the need to share whatever,

00:44:38 ►

I would assess is why am I doing it?

00:44:41 ►

What is the benefit I’m getting from doing this?

00:44:43 ►

It really would be-

00:44:44 ►

Well, I mean, a tangible benefit,

00:44:46 ►

and let’s use some real world stuff that’s happening on Instagram right now, is that you

00:44:52 ►

have learned how to make mushrooms. And so you’re going to show your yield, you’re going to post

00:44:57 ►

photos of your mushroom yield. And maybe this is decrim in your jurisdiction. Maybe it’s not.

00:45:03 ►

Maybe a tangible benefit is you get the credit from your peers of, hey, look to grow mushrooms, for instance.

00:45:25 ►

But is there the same benefit of showing your yields, for instance?

00:45:31 ►

Where is the line of oversharing?

00:45:34 ►

Yeah.

00:45:35 ►

So first off, I’ll speak to this.

00:45:37 ►

First off, in every single jurisdiction, I am sure definitely in Arizona, there are law enforcement teams that are dedicated

00:45:45 ►

to reviewing social media. I can’t begin to tell you the number of cases I’ve had that started off

00:45:52 ►

with that particular law enforcement team just scanning social media. That’s essentially all

00:45:58 ►

they do. And they look for different things, including yields, if you will. So first,

00:46:03 ►

Look for different things, including yields, if you will.

00:46:07 ►

So first, keep all your social media to private.

00:46:08 ►

Don’t have it public.

00:46:11 ►

So many people have it public.

00:46:16 ►

I mean, keeping it private, don’t get me wrong, doesn’t necessarily, it definitely makes it safer in the sense that the first look at things, unless you’re an undercover police

00:46:22 ►

officer who has added you as a friend and they’re now your

00:46:26 ►

friend and they can see your stuff privately if you will and there’s plenty of those as well

00:46:31 ►

but again just scanning the regular what’s available publicly so get do private second

00:46:37 ►

definitely don’t just don’t don’t share your yield if you’re in if you’re in a place that’s

00:46:42 ►

decrim a little different but i’m speaking in’m speaking in Arizona, Arizona, where everything is basically illegal.

00:46:48 ►

However, so definitely don’t share your yield.

00:46:51 ►

That’s something I highly recommend against.

00:46:55 ►

Show your yield to friends when they go over to your house.

00:46:59 ►

You know what I mean?

00:46:59 ►

Not to the 300, 400 social media friends.

00:47:04 ►

I, however… Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, I, however,

00:47:10 ►

did share, for example, I do love Mr. Peyote. And when I was down in Wilcox, I shared pictures of

00:47:20 ►

their, with permission, they allow you to take pictures of their different peyote plants.

00:47:27 ►

So I took a couple of photos and then on social media, I said something along the lines of,

00:47:33 ►

did you know in Arizona, the use of peyote is actually lawful if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:47:41 ►

blah, you know, and then I didn’t necessarily say I did it, but

00:47:45 ►

just kind of showing my social media friends, Hey, um, look at, this is what peyote looks like.

00:47:51 ►

And did you actually know this, this little fact? So that’s something that, that I shared. So it’s

00:47:57 ►

a little different if you will, it wasn’t my yield and I’m, I’m giving an educational fact, if you will. So, but definitely don’t ever share yields.

00:48:08 ►

You know, if you want to, for example, if you’re in a decrim place, show a picture of a,

00:48:14 ►

of a, you know, of your LSD or something like that. And it’s one of the few decrim places that,

00:48:22 ►

I mean, that’s one thing but never never a large amount

00:48:25 ►

none of that sort of thing that’s just calling and asking for trouble believe me many of my cases say

00:48:31 ►

the same so just don’t yeah let’s put it this way if there’s a tangible benefit there’s a tangible

00:48:38 ►

risk yeah or or another way to look at it too is whatever you’re posting. If you one day had to be sitting in the witness stand at your trial and having to explain your post, would you be comfortable doing that or uncomfortable doing that?

00:48:55 ►

Let that be your guide if you have no other metric upon which to make your decision.

00:49:00 ►

Another thought too is also this.

00:49:06 ►

um another thought too is also this there’s a big difference between telling somebody how to manufacture a nuclear weapon and then actually manufacturing the nuclear weapon you can publish

00:49:12 ►

the guide on how to do it that’s protective speech all day long uh but when you start to assemble

00:49:17 ►

that bomb yeah you’re probably tripping into some illegal conduct so same thing with like the

00:49:22 ►

mushroom cultivation instruction videos which by the way way, Charles, you’re spot on. Those things have, if you’ll pardon the pun,

00:49:29 ►

mushroomed across YouTube over the last several months. And there are some really good quality

00:49:33 ►

productions out there now with people offering high production value videos that are very

00:49:41 ►

scientific. I watch those all the time. I watch all these videos because

00:49:46 ►

I’m just fascinated by the topic. And frankly, I have to know it to do this job. But they’re there.

00:49:51 ►

And yeah, sometimes I cringe a little bit because some of these people are legitimately growing

00:49:56 ►

hallucinogenic mushrooms and showing it to you from start to finish. And I’m thinking, you know,

00:50:00 ►

you could have done the exact same video series with creminis and not putting yourself at any risk. But I applaud that they were willing to go there. I just don’t think it’s

00:50:09 ►

something I would have ever recommended they do. So let’s unpack that from the three of you.

00:50:15 ►

If you’re talking to the oversharers who we all agree, we think more information is better than

00:50:22 ►

less. What are some of the red flags you might recommend that they pay attention to?

00:50:27 ►

What are some of the guidelines of ways that could be more safe than less safe

00:50:31 ►

in sharing information?

00:50:34 ►

Top of the list is going to be don’t videotape yourself,

00:50:39 ►

engage in a criminal act, and then put it on the internet.

00:50:43 ►

Use facsimiles if you have to.

00:50:45 ►

Don’t use your identity if you can. Those would be the top pieces of advice. Sam, Sonia?

00:50:52 ►

My response is, would you do this in front of a police officer? If the answer is no,

00:51:01 ►

that’s essentially what you very well might be doing. And you might be doing it for generations of police officers.

00:51:07 ►

So if you’re doing something illegal, why would you tape yourself or record yourself doing it?

00:51:14 ►

Unless, like you said, Charles, it’s for a tangible benefit.

00:51:18 ►

So is the reason because you want to sell these items, right?

00:51:22 ►

So I think that the protections goes down. I don’t know. I’m not

00:51:26 ►

a First Amendment lawyer. It’s quite complicated. But I mean, the more it’s a commercial activity,

00:51:31 ►

the less it’s protected speech. You know, it’s kind of a seesaw. If it’s like Sonia was talking

00:51:37 ►

about sharing the beauty of Wilcox and the peyote church, she’s sharing that not to sell peyote,

00:51:42 ►

but to help people understand, know what’s legal what’s not

00:51:45 ►

legal don’t share anything illegal basically period don’t share anything illegal share it at

00:51:56 ►

home when you have your friends over at your home no need to share it on social media because yeah

00:52:00 ►

you’re basically sharing it to law enforcement so serious easy bottom line rule don’t share anything illegal yeah give you give you an example like in in um

00:52:11 ►

various places online you can find recipes for extractions or different uh techniques for taking

00:52:20 ►

uh different substances like uh i don’t say lemon say Lemon Tech, for example. You could post a

00:52:25 ►

recipe for Lemon Tech. It’s, well, the recipe is lemons. That’s about it. You know, that’s fine.

00:52:30 ►

You’re not going to get in trouble for posting lemons, you know. But when you start to post

00:52:37 ►

for the sale of the mushroom to go with it, yeah, you’ve definitely tripped into a zone you shouldn’t

00:52:42 ►

be engaged in. I think what people like to hear is, well, what’s a safer way to do it?

00:52:48 ►

What’s the best way to do it?

00:52:49 ►

Because I’m going to do it anyway.

00:52:52 ►

I mean, we’re not going to advise you to do not break the law.

00:52:56 ►

That’s not what we’re about here.

00:52:59 ►

But, I mean, I think, you know, you have to go back to, like, the Silk Road.

00:53:02 ►

You guys all know the story.

00:53:04 ►

Guess where all the FBI agents were? you know they’re using tor i mean this is just a way to like target yourself

00:53:10 ►

it’s like is it better is it safer to send an encrypted message out to tor users and all sorts

00:53:16 ►

of things i don’t know it might actually be a more a worse thing to do in terms of risks because

00:53:22 ►

now you’re really a target it’s like this person’s

00:53:25 ►

really trying to hide this so i want to make some space for uh for for some of our our community to

00:53:32 ►

ask questions but before we go into that because we’ve covered it a little bit tonight what does

00:53:37 ►

the law really say about topics of religious liberty and psychedelic use, or this other concept that you’ll hear people

00:53:46 ►

talk about a lot is cognitive liberty and psychedelic use. Are these actual legal concepts

00:53:52 ►

with regard to psychedelics? And if they are, how are they used? How narrow is this? Can anybody

00:54:00 ►

simply say, it’s my religious right to use mushrooms? Can anybody really say I have cognitive freedom?

00:54:07 ►

What does the law really say about this?

00:54:09 ►

Sure, I’ll take that first.

00:54:11 ►

And yeah, you can really say that from the middle of your jail cell.

00:54:15 ►

You can really say that from there.

00:54:18 ►

You can say that for the years and years you’re spending there.

00:54:22 ►

Okay, kidding aside, yeah, there is absolutely unquestionably

00:54:27 ►

in the United States a legal channel for psychedelic religion. It’s been with us for

00:54:34 ►

decades, if not centuries. First Amendment protection exists. The problem is it’s not

00:54:40 ►

well developed in the law. So there are still a lot of dark zones and gray areas, and what is or isn’t permissible.

00:54:48 ►

So a couple of easy, low-hanging, bright lines here, if I can mix metaphors and torture them like I just did.

00:54:55 ►

It’s a fruity metaphor.

00:54:59 ►

If you’re going to be engaging with a psychedelic religion, your safest space possible is to go into a religious

00:55:05 ►

organization that’s already had its court battles. So for example, the ayahuasca churches like

00:55:11 ►

Santo Daime, they’ve already been to the U.S. Supreme Court and they’ve been deemed okay. So

00:55:16 ►

as long as you’re in one of these groups and they’re still following the same tenets that

00:55:20 ►

got them through the first battles, you’re safer than, say, you know, Joe’s Mushroom Church

00:55:27 ►

that just opened up in the strip mall. Those people haven’t had their little day in court yet

00:55:33 ►

or don’t possibly have the war chest to fend off their day in court, which would be ideal.

00:55:40 ►

So there’s still risk there. But absolutely, yes, there is a swell right now in the country of psychedelic religion. And I’ve got several practitioner friends around the country who do this kind of work like I do. And we’re all collectively trying to figure out how we can get a good census of the numbers of people who are engaged and involved in these psychedelic religions, because if I can borrow a line from Dune, I suspect it’s a lot like the Fremen in the sense that I think their numbers are vast,

00:56:10 ►

and I think it’s a best kept secret. So yeah, if any of you have ambitions of being the Kwisatz

00:56:17 ►

Adorak, I’d like you to come out and let us get a census on how many psychedelic religious

00:56:22 ►

adherents are out there. Other things

00:56:25 ►

I can tell you, the law has not really caught up to the idea of spirituality alone as a religious

00:56:32 ►

basis. You’ve got to remember, these are conservative judges who are old and have been on,

00:56:37 ►

you know, courts for a long time or just living with the old beliefs. So they’re looking,

00:56:42 ►

unfortunately, although they shouldn’t be because the law does not require this, but they’re looking for something that looks like the Judeo-Christian

00:56:49 ►

lineage. You know, they’re looking for a, you know, proper church building and a deacon or

00:56:53 ►

priest at the front. And, you know, a lot of these psychedelic religions don’t look like that and

00:56:59 ►

don’t act like that. So it’s a harder sell in the courtroom. And there’s definitely no law or case that I have yet found that speaks to the concept of a religion of one. And that’s a very common concept in the psychedelic circles that, you know, when you’re spiritual, it’s not that you’re looking to join a community necessarily, as much as you’re looking to connect with whatever the that is, call it what you want.

00:57:23 ►

So, yeah, there’s not a lot of safe space, but there are some safe

00:57:27 ►

spaces to dwell with it. Thank you. Sonia, you’ve articulated your participation in a

00:57:37 ►

psychedelic religious experience. Can you speak a little bit to your point of view on on the question of what makes for a legitimate religious

00:57:47 ►

use with regard to psychedelics that is a great question i much appreciate it so legitimate use is is essentially you’re doing it for your spiritual benefit and development.

00:58:14 ►

That’s the best way I could put it.

00:58:16 ►

So for me, it is through my religious spiritual experience, if you will. So when I say religion, I’m not talking about Christianity or Judaism or Islam, if you will. I’m talking about my own religious spirituality. So

00:58:36 ►

in that sense, that is what peyote does for me and falls within the bona fide religious youth.

00:58:45 ►

So plainly put, spiritual benefit and development.

00:58:51 ►

Within the context of the established organization that has the exemptions.

00:58:57 ►

Absolutely. Yes.

00:58:59 ►

And there are several religious groups now that are looking to incorporate a psychedelic or an entheogen into their religious practices.

00:59:10 ►

I have been consulted over the last year by a number of these groups, and they’re all stripes.

00:59:16 ►

I’ve had Christian groups come looking for this.

00:59:20 ►

I’ve had devoutly Orthodox Jewish groups coming looking for this. I’ve had devoutly Orthodox Jewish groups coming looking for this. And in fact, weirdly

00:59:25 ►

enough, and I haven’t figured out why, Judaism seems to be where the bulk of this is coming up

00:59:30 ►

right now, but not exclusively so. Very interesting. So let’s open it up. Does anybody have

00:59:40 ►

any questions that they want to introduce into this conversation? Go ahead and use the raise hand or simply unmute.

00:59:52 ►

Okay.

00:59:53 ►

Well, go ahead, Andrew.

00:59:55 ►

Gary, you’re saying that people making tutorials on YouTube have finally figured out how to focus their camera lenses?

01:00:05 ►

That’s news.

01:00:06 ►

Depends which one, but yeah, I’ve seen some decent ones recently,

01:00:10 ►

like in the last month. Email me offline.

01:00:15 ►

I’ll try to pluck some of the ones that I’ve seen that I liked and I’ll share

01:00:19 ►

them with you and you can judge them as you wish.

01:00:22 ►

Gary, is your advice for sharing, share better quality?

01:00:26 ►

Well, that’s always a good advice.

01:00:28 ►

If you’re going to share it, at least make it high quality.

01:00:31 ►

If you’re going to do something illegal and you want to share it with law enforcement,

01:00:34 ►

make sure it’s super high res.

01:00:37 ►

Yeah, well, I appreciate the joke, but seriously, to Andrew’s point, I mean, you know, like

01:00:43 ►

a few years ago, if you went onto YouTube looking for these how-to videos it was some guy in a in a kitchen that looked like a

01:00:50 ►

meth lab in the middle of the woods uh shaky camera like food on the walls while he’s trying

01:00:57 ►

to cook something on the stove just the worst i mean you know what gary that’s a mastermind

01:01:02 ►

because there’s no way you’re tracking down or taking them seriously.

01:01:05 ►

So that was a genius move. It could be, could be.

01:01:10 ►

But but there are definitely some people out there who are doing much better quality stuff.

01:01:16 ►

You know, there’s not not a how to video series, but there was a great series out of.

01:01:22 ►

Oh, God, I want to say Holland, called Drugs Lab.

01:01:28 ►

That’s on YouTube, Drugs Lab.

01:01:30 ►

And it was a bunch of, like, 20-year-olds who were the show hosts.

01:01:34 ►

And every episode, one of the hosts would try a different drug.

01:01:38 ►

And, I mean, they went through them all.

01:01:40 ►

There had to have been, like, 60 episodes.

01:01:43 ►

And it was really well produced. And what they would

01:01:46 ►

do is have the person sit down and take the drug, they’d film it, they’d have their vital statistics

01:01:52 ►

on the wall behind them. So you’re tracing how they’re doing throughout it. And they’d have

01:01:56 ►

another host there monitoring and interacting. And it was really well produced and very educational.

01:02:02 ►

All right, Warren looks like he’s got a question. Go ahead, Warren.

01:02:06 ►

Yeah, I was wondering, don’t the prosecutor’s offices or the DA in the different jurisdictions

01:02:16 ►

really have a lot of discretion as to who gets prosecuted and who doesn’t and what for?

01:02:23 ►

who gets prosecuted and who doesn’t and what for?

01:02:27 ►

Well, presumably after an arrest, sure.

01:02:30 ►

I wouldn’t say they have unfettered discretion.

01:02:31 ►

They don’t just grab people.

01:02:34 ►

Yeah, I mean, prosecutors have the discretion,

01:02:38 ►

and that’s who creates the long-form complaint for the different charges.

01:02:41 ►

What they don’t have discretion over, however, are some of the minimum guidelines.

01:02:43 ►

So in Arizona, at least in Arizona,

01:02:46 ►

most psychedelics. So in Arizona, let me go back. There are three categories of drugs. Number one,

01:02:54 ►

marijuana has its own category. Gotta love it. Number two, narcotics. And number three,

01:02:59 ►

dangerous drugs. Psychedelics fall under dangerous drugs. So, you know, we, we got that going for it. That’s

01:03:08 ►

unfortunate, but what happens is what I’m saying is at first there is a law called prop 200,

01:03:15 ►

where if you have a personal, if you’re in possession of personal use, not sales,

01:03:21 ►

not transportation of, you know, with intent to sell none of that personal use,

01:03:25 ►

you get a chance to, you know, resolve your case by taking a substance abuse,

01:03:31 ►

doing an evaluation in course, and then your case goes away. But if you don’t do that,

01:03:38 ►

and then you pick up a second case for a psychedelic, depending on the amount,

01:03:46 ►

second case for a psychedelic, depending on the amount, it’s a minimum of like two and a half years. It’s crazy. It’s ridiculous. So you have to be, you have to be really careful when it comes

01:03:52 ►

to your psychedelic use, because if you choose to consume it again, be careful because the,

01:04:00 ►

you could reap a lot of negative repercussions in the criminal justice system should you be caught and definitely should you be caught with an amount that makes it appear as if you are selling it.

01:04:13 ►

So be careful, folks.

01:04:15 ►

Sonia, isn’t it still the case with like LSD because it’s such a small amount that’s necessary?

01:04:21 ►

Like you can like be, you know, you have this much and you’re like a trafficker

01:04:25 ►

is that still the case yeah lsd um i could check but i think it’s something like six tabs

01:04:30 ►

i’m pretty sure it’s like five or six tabs if i recall in a different form you know you have it

01:04:37 ►

in a in a liquid or something yeah that as well so essentially think of it as five or six tabs

01:04:43 ►

worth i think i think that’s still the amount before it’s considered sales.

01:04:48 ►

Yeah. And that’s a whole nother level.

01:04:52 ►

So again, just be careful out there, folks.

01:04:55 ►

Five or six tabs are what some of us call Saturday night.

01:04:59 ►

Go ahead, Kenya.

01:05:01 ►

Saturday night and Monday.

01:05:05 ►

I want to complain that Charles has never invited us over.

01:05:10 ►

Come to San Francisco.

01:05:12 ►

Let’s let Kenya in.

01:05:14 ►

Oh, no.

01:05:15 ►

You mentioned Prop 200 in Arizona.

01:05:19 ►

And I’m a substance abuse counselor, so I was doing some continuing education and they mentioned that in Prop 200, when it was passed, it was originally supposed to be any drug, not just marijuana.

01:05:48 ►

they allow other drugs to um other you know other drugs for for people with uh with charges for other drugs to be allowed to to do that course but i i wasn’t there a part in it where like it said

01:05:55 ►

like a doctor can prescribe you any drug or something weird like that but then it was like

01:06:01 ►

taken back um i’m not sure what your question is, but the bottom

01:06:06 ►

line is at least for the very first personal use of most drugs, the state gives you a chance to

01:06:13 ►

kind of, you know, go meet with counselors like you do all that sort of stuff. There’s a first

01:06:17 ►

chance type of thing, but some people don’t take that opportunity because they’re not ready or

01:06:22 ►

whatever. They don’t do their thing. And then they’re stuck with a dangerous drug charge and then they get a second drug charge and all of a

01:06:29 ►

sudden they’re in prison for two years because you know they uh have uh you know five or six

01:06:36 ►

tabs of lsd and a and a grow room of mushrooms if you will so oh okay what i think is going to

01:06:43 ►

be interesting is when they they come up with some

01:06:45 ►

more um defined uses of like micro dosing let’s say of mushrooms or something and it’s for

01:06:52 ►

depression right and it’s like super effective i mean people who are really depressed don’t

01:06:57 ►

necessarily want to see somebody to get that prescription once they see that it’s like fda

01:07:03 ►

approved let’s say i think isn’t there going to be a lot more sort of recreational use of people just really just

01:07:09 ►

trying to get healthy if they see that it’s proven? Oh, 100%, Sam. Yeah, I’ve been saying

01:07:16 ►

this for the last two years, at least, that wonderful things are happening with the Food

01:07:22 ►

and Drug Administration. There are several psychedelics that are on path for rescheduling.

01:07:27 ►

They’re going to be approved and they’ll be available with doctor’s prescription.

01:07:30 ►

Pharmacists will be able to compound or issue it.

01:07:33 ►

But I greatly suspect FDA is going to tie those, at least for the next many, many years, to a clinic visit only, which will make them financially out of reach for most.

01:07:44 ►

And it’s going to be a

01:07:45 ►

while before health insurance picks it up. So yeah, a hundred percent as these things come

01:07:50 ►

online in the mainstream, I absolutely am convinced it’s going to be like steroids for the,

01:07:56 ►

for the black market, because people will a know about it more B be looking for it and C

01:08:02 ►

will eventually figure out, hey, wait a minute,

01:08:10 ►

that same psilocybin that I’m going to this clinic down the street that I’m shelling out 500 bucks a session,

01:08:14 ►

I can literally grow that in a box under my bed for free?

01:08:15 ►

Yeah.

01:08:17 ►

That secret’s not going to be kept for very long.

01:08:23 ►

Gary, why don’t you give out your address for anybody looking for us?

01:08:27 ►

Let’s let Mally in.

01:08:27 ►

Go ahead, Mally.

01:08:32 ►

Yeah, I just wanted a little more information on the future of schedules.

01:08:37 ►

Because, you know, if we look at the rules, the schedules are built around there.

01:08:41 ►

A lot of these drugs were scheduled incorrectly a long time ago. So I’m interested in your perspective of, you know, what do you see in the future for that? Because if they are rescheduled, it really changes the

01:08:50 ►

game in a significant way. Yeah, well, it depends what is being rescheduled and how,

01:08:56 ►

or really to what schedule number are they being rescheduled.

01:09:03 ►

I don’t think that there’s going to be much movement from the federal

01:09:07 ►

government other than through FDA normal channels. So when we’re talking about these psychedelics

01:09:12 ►

that are coming up through that wave right now, just take psychedelic out of the conversation,

01:09:17 ►

just say drug. This could be Viagra we’re talking about. There are pharmaceutical companies that

01:09:23 ►

want to get their patents in place and get their FDA approval so that they can exploit these things

01:09:27 ►

financially. I don’t think that system’s apt to change anytime soon. How psychedelics fall on them,

01:09:34 ►

that’s the lever right now, but it’s going to be through that heavy, heavy science investment

01:09:39 ►

path. I don’t see anything happening on the grassroots level that would be levered by the

01:09:46 ►

federal government doing anything. I think the grassroots has to take care of itself.

01:09:51 ►

And that’s why you’re seeing these initiatives pop up around the country

01:09:54 ►

during the last election and the one before that and elections to come.

01:09:59 ►

Gary, does that put pressure on the federal government, the fact that there’s these

01:10:03 ►

initiatives and now like a patchwork of different criminalization?

01:10:08 ►

No.

01:10:09 ►

No.

01:10:10 ►

I mean, look at what cannabis has been doing for the past decade.

01:10:14 ►

Has the federal government done anything yet?

01:10:17 ►

We can’t even get a stupid banking law passed.

01:10:19 ►

So all these dispensaries out there are still having to deal in cash, literal cash, all because we just can’t get banking approved.

01:10:27 ►

So, yeah, for anybody who’s thinking, oh, we’re going to lever change at the federal level.

01:10:32 ►

That’s your final destination. Start local. Work your way up, because if you start at the top, you’re just wasting your time.

01:10:39 ►

So I want to do one or two more audience questions, if we have any. Go ahead, Andrew.

01:10:44 ►

I’m not sure exactly how to phrase this, but I think it’ll come through.

01:10:47 ►

What would it take in order for people who, curriculum of a of a of that kind of rehab

01:11:12 ►

like how far would we have to go how many laws would we have to strip away like for that loop

01:11:19 ►

to close itself for mushrooms to be like an officially prescribed treatment like or a grow program of some kind of

01:11:30 ►

education like what would that actually take and how far away from that oh i’m not sure i’m

01:11:37 ►

understand when you say a mushroom growing program you mean like somebody going to prison for

01:11:43 ►

something and taking a program in prison about mushroom growing?

01:11:46 ►

The question comes from when I, you know, when I imagine having a conversation with somebody who has a problematic relationship with a substance like, well, if I really could, you know, give them any advice that my heart has to offer you know one of the first things would be hey maybe you should learn to grow these uh these interesting little plants over here because like i think that if

01:12:11 ►

you’re into altering your consciousness this could be a path that allows you to channel that energy

01:12:16 ►

into a much more constructive you know way than you know maybe you first learned when you got into altering your consciousness um but like when is it going to be you’re asking when is that that type of thing going to be

01:12:33 ►

mainstream shit i think i think we’re far off from that i’m i’m i’m no political scientist

01:12:39 ►

although i do have a political science degree. Politics works slow, which basically, we talk about politics, we’re talking about society.

01:12:47 ►

Society works slow.

01:12:49 ►

So, you know, we’re legalizing now.

01:12:52 ►

We’ve got a couple of jurisdictions

01:12:53 ►

that have now decriminalized, you know, some drugs.

01:12:57 ►

So do I think, you know,

01:12:59 ►

and there’s a lot of education

01:13:01 ►

and a lot of science is needed.

01:13:03 ►

A lot is needed. And, and, and so I

01:13:07 ►

don’t think we’re any, I don’t think we’re anywhere close to that. I appreciate that. I know what

01:13:11 ►

you’re talking about. It’s kind of like, I do a lot of work in the cannabis field. And so I

01:13:16 ►

understand that cannabis is very healing. You know, you get the right terpenes and this, that,

01:13:22 ►

and the other, and, you know, you could have a very healing,

01:13:25 ►

um, um, specific strain, all that sort of good stuff. So I, I, and I get that and I appreciate

01:13:33 ►

that, but I think mainstream society is far off from having classes on, on, on that, but it’s

01:13:42 ►

happening. It’s happening. I don’t know know gary i think your book speaks to this

01:13:45 ►

sort of thing too right yeah a little a little bit um yeah i agree with you sonia i think we’re

01:13:51 ►

well well well away from those moments that we dream of um the most important thing again is

01:13:58 ►

just to have this conversation break out of these echo chambers and start having it with people who aren’t aware or

01:14:06 ►

or are and are opposed because you have to start winning them over but here you think with let’s

01:14:13 ►

say that an fda approval of a psilocybin type drug i mean i think that would be a huge watershed

01:14:20 ►

moment i mean there’s so many these sss and stuff are so devastating to your body.

01:14:26 ►

If there’s something that actually works, at least better, I don’t know. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

01:14:32 ►

FDA approval would, would speed the conversation along. I’m talking, you know, before that happens,

01:14:38 ►

you, you could be encouraging these conversations right now. I mean, sure, there’s tons of things that science hasn’t revealed yet that will eventually be studied and we’ll find out more about it and

01:14:51 ►

find these wonderful things. I’ll give you just one tepid little example. A couple of years ago,

01:14:57 ►

I think it was just before the pandemic hit, Beckley Foundation had published an article.

01:15:02 ►

They did this one-off, just tiny little study.

01:15:05 ►

It didn’t amount to much. They didn’t put much into it. But what they found was that LSD

01:15:10 ►

seemed to be a better pain modulator than opioids. And what they did was an experiment with like an

01:15:18 ►

ice bath, and they gave people low doses, and they checked their tolerance to extreme cold with and without and

01:15:25 ►

determined gee whiz on lsd they were way more tolerant of of the pain of the ice bath so now

01:15:32 ►

imagine had we not shut down all this research 50 years ago and it had been discovered hey gee whiz

01:15:39 ►

it turns out lsd or some iteration of it in the right dose, actually better than opioids.

01:15:46 ►

Now, imagine had we known that we might have avoided the entire opioid epidemic.

01:15:52 ►

So this is why these conversations need to take place.

01:15:55 ►

It may be uncomfortable for people, but it will shake us out of this complacent, willful ignorance and open up a broader, greater truth for whatever end that

01:16:05 ►

might take you to. So to tie Gary’s observation about the need for broader conversation and

01:16:12 ►

larger outlets and to also respond to Andrew’s question about, so when is this going to be?

01:16:18 ►

Rick Doblin recently gave an interview to GQ where he was asked about the future of psychedelics in mainstream society. And his

01:16:26 ►

projection for what Andrew envisions, where we would be in such a society where if you wanted to

01:16:33 ►

cure somebody with an opiate problem by bringing them to the psychedelic world was 50 years.

01:16:40 ►

And he was describing that the work that’s being done now in the 2020s towards rescheduling, changing the law, was going to yield rescheduling in this decade, which was going to yield the advancement of more clinics and more progress in the next decade, where over the span of about 40 years, he was envisioning we’ll get to the point where we are actually saying, hey, you’ve’ve got a problem with fentanyl maybe we can teach you how to grow mushrooms so the conversation the

01:17:09 ►

conversation is being thought about in these kinds of terms but you know certainly there’s there’s a

01:17:14 ►

long distance to go i could see that that makes sense to me that’s what i was saying about political

01:17:20 ►

science polysci tells you society works slow you can can’t, you know, you can’t just,

01:17:26 ►

so 40, 50 years in terms of mainstream, I could see that. Yeah.

01:17:31 ►

Yeah. That makes sense to me too. And, and, but from a slightly different perspective,

01:17:34 ►

because I look upon this as the imbuing into our culture, some new cultural norms

01:17:40 ►

that don’t currently exist. So you’re going to take this first generation that’s at the front

01:17:45 ►

of this wave. That’s the generation that’s going to be re-educated. Then that second generation

01:17:52 ►

that Rick Doblin’s talking about, those are the children of the generation you’ve just re-educated

01:17:57 ►

and you’re counting on them to establish the new cultural norm. Is it achievable? Heck yeah, it is.

01:18:06 ►

the new cultural norm. Is it achievable? Heck yeah, it is. I’m optimistic about it.

01:18:12 ►

And I’m only 52. I might live long enough to see it. So that’s kind of interesting too.

01:18:16 ►

Well, and I’m sorry, go ahead, Cindy. No, I was laughing.

01:18:27 ►

And so to bring it all full circle, and one of the cultural norms that lawyers will tell you should be a norm is that everybody should have their own personal lawyer.

01:18:34 ►

And so there’s two parts of this question with regard to psychedelic people and finding a lawyer. The first part is you are a therapist. You are a grower. You are doing something that you just preventatively want to have somebody on tap

01:18:47 ►

should things go wrong. What are the things you should be thinking about for how to get

01:18:52 ►

somebody on tap should things go wrong? Sam, you’re the concierge for this.

01:19:00 ►

You’ll understand why. I’m telling you, Sam is like so white glove with the clients.

01:19:04 ►

This is exactly the perfect question for him.

01:19:06 ►

I really believe people need to, attorneys, the way you should approach like a potential spouse is you need to get along with them.

01:19:15 ►

Yeah, they have to be able to speak to you and work with you just in any topic.

01:19:19 ►

There’s so many areas where this affects me. When people come to my office for one problem,

01:19:24 ►

I always ask them about a couple other things

01:19:27 ►

that I just see repeatedly in people’s lives to try to just protect them and just make

01:19:33 ►

sure that they’re growing their business.

01:19:36 ►

Typically, it’s a business or financial issue.

01:19:38 ►

But I really think you have to be able to freely communicate with this person and not

01:19:44 ►

feel like it’s some sort of authority figure

01:19:46 ►

that you’re afraid to share what’s actually going on. And so that’s what I think is the basis of it.

01:19:52 ►

It’s really just trust. And that’s going to be different for people. I’ve told potential clients

01:19:56 ►

who it’s like, I could help you, but I’m not really the right person for you. And I believe,

01:20:01 ►

and I’ve learned long ago, if I’m not the right person for this particular matter or this client, get them to somebody who is, and it’s never scary wrong. So it’s that simple. And then somebody who actually knows what they’re doing helps. Or that will tell you when they don’t.

01:20:29 ►

You have an absolute right as a consumer of legal services to expect open, honest, candid communication with your attorney or prospective attorney.

01:20:34 ►

If you’re not getting that, get up, walk out of their office.

01:20:35 ►

Don’t go back.

01:20:36 ►

Seriously.

01:20:39 ►

There are enough lawyers out there.

01:20:42 ►

You can find the one that is the right fit for you.

01:20:44 ►

Also true.

01:20:46 ►

You know, there are lawyers out there who’d be like,

01:20:51 ►

yeah, just give me a big fat deposit. And I’m your lawyer for life. And, you know, 2am, you can call me. And maybe you can, maybe you can’t, there are some lawyers out there who really will let you

01:20:55 ►

call them at 2am. But if that’s what you need, and that’s what you want, you need to ask and

01:21:00 ►

expect an honest answer. So that’s the non crisisis and then what do you do when you’ve got

01:21:07 ►

a crisis and you’re looking and you’re looking for a lawyer is it is it as simple as you go to

01:21:10 ►

your state bar or what what advice do you have for people to to to find that person that’s going to

01:21:16 ►

help them out when they’re they’re really in a pinch how bad is the friends i say i say ask

01:21:22 ►

friends first and foremost um ask around ask ask friends, ask friends of friends,

01:21:28 ►

ask, you know, that is if you’re comfortable

01:21:31 ►

in asking friends, hey, you know, a criminal defense attorney.

01:21:35 ►

But yeah, you can look at your state bar.

01:21:36 ►

Arizona has a state bar search website

01:21:39 ►

where I think you could search by practice areas.

01:21:43 ►

Get on the Google and, you know, look up attorney in your area. Then

01:21:48 ►

maybe, you know, if it’s a specific psychedelic, you know, type that in as well, you know,

01:21:54 ►

in a Google search and see what websites come up. You could, you know, find different attorneys

01:21:59 ►

that’s on their websites, talk about their experience with their use. Arizona has a Cannabis Bar

01:22:05 ►

Association and has a list of all the attorneys who deal with cannabis issues. A lot of the

01:22:12 ►

attorneys who deal with cannabis issues. Also, if they do criminal defense, deal with the

01:22:17 ►

psychedelic issues, Gary, and a few others deal with psychedelic on a more civil level,

01:22:23 ►

if you will. But in terms of an emergency, you’re looking at calling a criminal defense attorney.

01:22:28 ►

Ask around, see what friends, if not, get on the Google, get on Yelp, look at reviews.

01:22:34 ►

So if a friend or family member doesn’t know, the best you could do is look for an attorney who has reviews that you could check out.

01:22:43 ►

And one of the things you’re going to ask an attorney

01:22:45 ►

is what the retainer is.

01:22:46 ►

First and foremost, what is your retainer?

01:22:48 ►

What is your retainer and what is your hourly?

01:22:51 ►

I mean, that’s bottom line.

01:22:53 ►

Could you even afford to hire that attorney?

01:22:55 ►

Some attorneys have retainers in terms of criminal,

01:22:58 ►

depending on the charge, as low as 2,000.

01:23:01 ►

Other attorneys have retainers as high as 100,000, you know, depending on the

01:23:06 ►

criminal case and firm. So, I mean, you just don’t know. So, Colin, those are the questions you want

01:23:13 ►

to ask. I like to think of attorneys are kind of like dentists. You know, you don’t want to go to

01:23:19 ►

see the dentist. You also don’t want to see an attorney. And it’s not as much fun. But if you go to the dentist before the problem, you’re a lot better off if you have a resource.

01:23:31 ►

I mean, I mean, I know Gary and I, we basically refer out a lot of this stuff.

01:23:36 ►

I mean, there’s some stuff we do.

01:23:38 ►

And then there’s people like we’ll say, go to Sonia.

01:23:40 ►

She’s a good person.

01:23:41 ►

So you want to build that relationship before, just like you have a dentist before you have a root canal, hopefully.

01:23:48 ►

So you have somebody that’s trusted, that knows you before the crisis.

01:23:51 ►

Because I deal with crises.

01:23:53 ►

It’s not fun with a crisis.

01:23:55 ►

You may not have a chance to look at the reviews.

01:23:57 ►

I mean, you’re somebody died or something really bad.

01:24:01 ►

You don’t have a chance to negotiate retainers.

01:24:04 ►

You’re kind of stuck

01:24:05 ►

with whoever picks up the phone. It’s not a good place to be. It’s much better to have a trusted

01:24:11 ►

advisor to talk to you and guide you there through friends or another attorney. But, you know,

01:24:16 ►

hopefully you don’t need us. But, you know, that’s what we’re here for is resources.

01:24:21 ►

Yeah. And remember, also, lawyers are licensed to practice law,

01:24:25 ►

all law, all of it. So with my bar license, if I want to be a securities lawyer on Monday

01:24:32 ►

and dabble in the world of stocks and bonds, I can do that. And on Tuesday, if I feel like being

01:24:38 ►

a divorce lawyer, sure, I’ll take your divorce case. On Wednesday, if I feel like, ah, it’s

01:24:43 ►

criminal day, sure. I can do

01:24:45 ►

that. Am I going to be good at any of those things? Hell no. So it’s not enough just to buy a lawyer’s

01:24:51 ►

time, interview, vet, research. There are lawyers who specialize. There are lawyers who focus their

01:24:59 ►

practice in particular niches and areas. If you have a particular need, you want to find that

01:25:03 ►

particular lawyer. Like Sonia was saying, she and I are both members of the Cannabis Bar Association.

01:25:08 ►

We’ve got a roster of members that’s, oh God, 40, 50 lawyers deep. Some of them just do real

01:25:13 ►

estate stuff. And if you’ve got a cannabis issue, that’s just real estate, that’s who we’re going

01:25:17 ►

to send you to because that’s who you need. We’re not going to send you to the divorce guy.

01:25:21 ►

What’s he going to do with your real estate? Right? So you’ve got to know who you’re

01:25:25 ►

dealing with. And if you’re, if you’re completely without the luxury of time, which even in the

01:25:30 ►

biggest crunch, you can always find 24 hours to look somebody up. Thank you. That’s excellent,

01:25:36 ►

excellent feedback and advice. And Lorenzo, I saw that you had something. So why don’t you take us

01:25:40 ►

out? Well, well, before Gary saidary said that uh i had something to say

01:25:45 ►

and now i can just say what he said because i i wanted to point out and uh put a exclamation

01:25:53 ►

point on what sam was saying like if you go to a dentist you want to just get your teeth clean

01:25:57 ►

you need an extraction a cavity you want braces you know what kind of dentist are you are you

01:26:02 ►

really looking for and and like you said, Gary,

01:26:05 ►

lawyers are the same way. You know, while you can practice all these things, what are you really

01:26:11 ►

good at? What are your firms good at? And, you know, about a half hour ago, I was looking at

01:26:16 ►

the three of you and thinking, wow, you know, it’s been a long time since I practiced law,

01:26:21 ►

even though I’m still licensed, mainly because in Texas, after you’re

01:26:25 ►

70, you’re a permanent member of the state bar. You just have to certify you’re alive once a year.

01:26:30 ►

So I’m still a licensed attorney. And I was looking at the three of you and I thought, well,

01:26:35 ►

who would I hire? Well, my practice was mainly business, real estate law and business. So Sam

01:26:41 ►

and I, we understand each other. And if I had a business case, I would hire Sam in a heartbeat. But if I wanted to go to Congress and lobby

01:26:50 ►

people, Gary, you’d be the man I would hire you to be a spokesman. But if I had a legal problem,

01:26:57 ►

a criminal problem, or my one of my grandchildren did, Sonia, and it’s not because of your

01:27:02 ►

experience, it’s the fire in your eyes when you were speaking I

01:27:05 ►

thought wow if she took my case nobody’d have a chance you know that and and that goes right back

01:27:11 ►

to what Sam was saying you’ve got to have a rapport with your lawyer you know you and as it’s

01:27:16 ►

you won’t hurt a lawyer’s feeling if you say you know I just don’t feel right you’re not the right

01:27:20 ►

one you got to be able and that’s one of the things I learned practicing law and business you got to know when to walk away from a deal and and the same thing is when you’re not the right one. You got to be able. And that’s one of the things I learned practicing law in business. You got to know when to walk away from a deal. And the same thing is when you’re

01:27:29 ►

hiring a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant, you know, if you don’t feel good about them,

01:27:34 ►

you know, you’ve got to work with them for a long time. You’re going to turn a big part of

01:27:38 ►

your life over to them. So feel good about them. And before we close here, Gary, tell us a little

01:27:44 ►

bit about your podcast.

01:27:45 ►

And I’ll tell you why I’d like to know something about it is because my friend Myron Stolaroff,

01:27:50 ►

when he was alive and in his 80s, even when he’d sit down in the airplane next to somebody,

01:27:54 ►

one of the first thing he’d say when he started talking to people, he’d say,

01:27:57 ►

well, what do you think about LSD? And I think your podcast might be the opener. What do you think about the legalization? Did you hear this podcast, something like that? So tell us a little bit about your podcast, if you will.

01:28:11 ►

Yeah, sure. I’m happy to. And thank you. And by the way, you’re also right about never hurting a lawyer’s feelings. If, you know, for whatever reason, it’s not going to work out because here’s the truth. We don’t have any feelings.

01:28:23 ►

After 30 years of doing this, I’m just a big emotional callous.

01:28:27 ►

Yeah, so the podcast is really just where the book leaves off. So the story is basically this,

01:28:34 ►

a year and a half ago, I published this book, and I had this grandiose idea that, you know,

01:28:38 ►

I’m going to go jump on the international psychedelics lecture circuit and talk about

01:28:42 ►

the book and promote it and what I do. And then the pandemic set in and nobody was going anywhere. And I was stuck at home working from the

01:28:50 ►

home office here because I also wasn’t going to the office, but I was still working. So I spent

01:28:55 ►

part of pandemic learning how to do video editing and audio editing. And I built this whole studio

01:29:00 ►

here at the house. So the podcast picks up where the book leaves off.

01:29:05 ►

And it’s just the ongoing exploration from a lawyer’s perspective.

01:29:10 ►

And I bring that skill set to the show, looking at all the different facets of psychedelics.

01:29:15 ►

And from my perspective, there’s no topic off limits on the show.

01:29:19 ►

Because, you know, you grab this gem I call psychedelics.

01:29:22 ►

Every time you turn that gem around, you look at a new facet.

01:29:24 ►

There’s something wonderful there.

01:29:26 ►

So it could be history,

01:29:27 ►

archeology, anthropology, law, you name it.

01:29:30 ►

There’s some psychedelic connection

01:29:32 ►

and I haven’t found the bottom of the barrel yet.

01:29:35 ►

So I have an ongoing show.

01:29:37 ►

I don’t get to it as often as I’d like to

01:29:39 ►

because my day job gets in the way,

01:29:41 ►

but I try to get at least one episode up a month.

01:29:44 ►

And most of it is

01:29:45 ►

interviews where I’ll bring in professionals from the real working world who are actually doing this

01:29:49 ►

so that you, A, get the most recent information, and B, can see that there are actual jobs and

01:29:55 ►

careers and way to earn a living doing this while elevating the topic. And then other episodes I do

01:30:02 ►

are just me sharing the research I find like I recently I did.

01:30:06 ►

I think three book reviews I rarely get a chance to pleasure read so I, I did find some time and I read three psychedelic books that were on point to what I do and so I did a review on those, and I’ll keep doing this until somebody stops me.

01:30:30 ►

So for the attorneys here tonight, I see Gary is wearing a shirt that says, I’m billing you for this. So I think we better cut this off right now because I can’t afford much more of this.

01:30:38 ►

But listen, like I say every week, listen, everybody, until next time, keep the old faith and stay high i know i will

01:30:47 ►

and for now this is lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space namaste my friends

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

675 - Psychedelic Law for the People

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