556 - Coalitions for Liberty

Program Notes

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Grover Norquist delivering his 2017 Palenque Norte Lecture at the Burning Man Festival

Date this lecture was recorded: August 29, 2017

[NOTE: All quotations are by Grover Norquist

“The best coalitions come from the hard right and hard left. Center coalitions don’t get you anything except more of the same. Each of them are part of the status quo. So you’re not going to get dramatic changes there.”

“What makes it enduring and work is that there’s a level of trust between people who disagree, on many issues, but can agree on a series of principles.”

“The secret sauce of democracy is the rule of law.”

“There’s a threat of violence behind any law, and if there’s no threat of violence then the law will be ignored.”

“[Throughout] history more people have been murdered by their governments than by foreign invaders. So I kind of think fear of one’s state is a rational fear in history.”

Transcript

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Greetings from Cyberdelic Space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic

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Salon.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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And I am very pleased to begin today by thanking several of our fellow salonners who have recently made donations to the salon

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to help us offset some of the expenses involved with these podcasts.

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And these wonderful people are

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Avrium S., Amuse, and Vallejo S., who sent a very generous donation as well.

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Without your help and the help of other fellow salonners throughout the past 13 years of these podcasts,

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well, they never would have happened.

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So, on behalf of everyone who enjoys listening to podcasts from the Psychedelic Salon,

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I thank you one and all.

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Now, today I’m going to play another of the recent Palenque Norte lectures

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that took place at this year’s Burning Man Festival.

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And while I realize that there are those among us who really aren’t very

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interested in listening to any speakers who talk about political issues,

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I nonetheless think that it’s important for us to not put our heads in the sand

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and avoid the fact that our world is on fire,

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as the poet Michael Brownstein so eloquently put it way back in our podcast number nine.

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Our speaker today, for his fourth consecutive year at Burning Man, is none other than the ultra-conservative lobbyist Grover Norquist.

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the ultra-conservative lobbyist, Grover Norquist.

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Now, if you’ve been with us here in the salon for a while,

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you have already heard my reasons for including a speaker who has such a different view of the world than we do.

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But just to briefly repeat myself,

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I learned many years ago from the great essayist I.F. Stone

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that if we only read and listen to those with whom we agree,

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then we are never going to understand points of view other than the ones that we already hold.

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And while that may be fine, I personally believe that it’s best to listen to all sides of any argument

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before coming to one’s own conclusions.

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As you know, Grover Norquist has made his living these past few decades

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as one of the nation’s most outspoken advocates for

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cutting taxes. And while on the surface of things that sounds quite admirable, some of his programs

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have caused a significant amount of pain and agony among many people. That said, if you listen to

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today’s podcast and to the three previous Planque Norte lectures of his that I’ve podcast,

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you will find that there actually are some of his ideas that many of us can support. For example,

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working with the very liberal Ralph Nader, he’s made some significant inroads in rolling back a

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few of the more odious criminal sentencing guidelines. And I can agree with Grover’s

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position when he says that he believes

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the government should be transparent to its citizens, but that the government has no right

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to the citizens’ private information, things like bank accounts, credit scores, and who our friends

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are. And I’m sure that if you listen to these Burning Man talks of his, you’ll discover that,

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well, he isn’t the horrible ogre that you may have thought of him to be

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when he supported this new tax bill here in the States.

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I’m sure that he believes what he says about tax reform,

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but the bottom line for me is that he also makes a nice living out of this

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by being a lobbyist for the ultra-wealthy.

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But my disagreements with Grover have to do with his policy ideas, not with him as a person.

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From what I’ve learned from

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his talks that I’ve podcast, I’m sure that we could sit down together, me with a joint and him

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with some alcohol, and have an interesting conversation without bringing any animosity

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into it. I try not to forget that back in 1984, before I had my first experience with MDMA, I was an Irish Catholic Republican lawyer.

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And those are some heavy marks against me. Fortunately, I’ve been able to get rid of the

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Catholic Republican and lawyer facets of my life. But had you met me before I started using

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psychedelics, I suspect that, well, you wouldn’t have liked me very much. But back then, I was still the person that I am today.

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I just had some bad ideas that sprung from a lack of information on my part.

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With the holiday season upon us, I hope that all of us can be kind to those poor souls in our families

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who, like me back in the day, are so poorly informed that they still think we have a sane person living

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in the White House, not the demented fool who happens to have his finger on the nuclear

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button, but that’s another story.

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So now let’s pretend that we are back in the big tent at Camp Soft Landing at Burning Man,

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where the Palenque Norte lectures are being held, and join Grover Norquist, who once again enters our lion’s den of psychonauts,

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and let’s see if we can find some common ground with him.

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Hello, welcome to Palenque Norte. I am here to introduce, I’m a little flustered, sorry,

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Grover Norquist. He is the head of the Americans and founder, right, of Americans for Tax Reform?

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He runs the Wednesday meetings at D.C. for the Center for Right, the Center Right Coalition,

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and he’s here to talk to us about how to create long-term organizations that last beyond a single issue

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and can really make long-term effects in the world.

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The talk is Building a Sustainable Coalition for Liberty.

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Great. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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Appreciate everybody getting through the weather.

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I got here just at 6, but would have been here early

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to be prepared, except during the

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white blinding part,

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at least where I was, I ended up on the wrong road.

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I thought I was just going to keep going and look for the signs.

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Anyway, it took a while.

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I want to talk about coalitions for liberty

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because some people think about politics and the two parties,

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but each of the parties has their own constituencies

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and neither is consistently for liberty Some people think about politics and the two parties, but each of the parties has their own constituencies,

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and neither is consistently for liberty, and they don’t see themselves necessarily as trying to do that. It’s not like they’re trying to do that and they screw up.

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They don’t see themselves as trying to do that.

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But there are pieces of each party and independent coalitions on the outside, groups, structures on the outside that do

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support liberty.

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And the question is, how do you get a sustainable movement to move liberty forward?

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And it’s one of those issues that some issues, you would have looked a number of years ago

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at gay rights and said, well, that’s never happening.

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And yet, in what’s in political time, a fairly short period of time, the country had a serious change both in its laws and in the way people viewed things.

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And there are other issues.

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Thirty years ago, in 48 states, you could go to jail for homeschooling.

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It was a crime.

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You were contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

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You were not sending your kid to the school, which was a crime. You were contributing to delinquency of a minor you were not sending your kid to the school which was compulsory

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and only in two states could you be sure to be able to do that.

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Today in all 57 states it’s completely legal

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to homeschool

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and they went all the spelling bees. I even remember somebody telling me years ago, I want to introduce

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you to this guy. He’s really good. He’s very bright.

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Then the guy hesitated and he says,

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I should warn you, he was

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homeschooled. His way

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of saying he doesn’t dress well

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or he’s not acclimated.

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He’s socially awkward, which

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is not what you’d say about somebody today

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who homeschooled.

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Laws can change.

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Ten years ago, Uber was illegal in all the states and every city because there was no way to do what Uber did legally.

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You couldn’t even go get the permit that you’d need to do what Uber does.

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And yet today, 30-plus states have completely legalized Uber and have forbidden local governments from messing with it.

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Remember our friends in Austin, in effect, put in a regulation that was enough to ban Uber and Lyft and drive them out of the city.

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And then the state came back and said, you know what, Austin, you can’t do that.

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You don’t have the right to mess with people who want to either drive or ride.

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So I guess what I would suggest, and a lot of these are left-right coalitions.

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I do a lot of work over the years with Ralph Nader, the American Civil Liberties Union.

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I run a taxpayer group, generally thought of as center-right.

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This is always

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a surprise to the guys at the Pentagon when we

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argue with them about how much they spend,

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because they spend a lot of money.

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And they go, I thought you were on our team. Well,

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sometimes, I mean, sort of. I think it’s

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nice to have an army and keep the Canadians on

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their side of the border.

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But beyond that, you know,

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we don’t necessarily need to spend

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all that much money.

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My brother, by the way, is the comptroller of the Pentagon.

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He’s the guy who does their budgets.

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But the issues as we – you can have a sustainable left-right coalition on civil liberties.

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We do a lot of the conservative groups in the ACLU work together against a national ID card,

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against invasions of privacy, against the Secrecy Act, the Secret Evidence Law, rather.

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Secret Evidence Law was we arrest you and we put you in jail and we tell you there’s evidence against you

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and you say, I’d like to see that evidence, and they say, it’s a secret.

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That law exists today, passed under the Clinton administration.

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It’s only used against aliens.

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It can’t be used against citizens, non-citizens living here that can be used against you.

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People spend years in jail for what turns out to be nothing because of secret evidence.

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But there’s a very good left-right coalition trying to fight that,

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and we got both Republican and Democrat votes against it back when it passed.

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On a left-right coalition, what works and what’s sustainable, meaning not a one-off deal,

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is when everybody involved is acting on the basis of principle.

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People tend to think of bipartisanship as when the stupid party and the evil party get together and do

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something that’s evil and stupid. And, you know, the Republicans want something and the Democrats

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want something. And so each agrees to get what they want. They agree to something that they

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consider destructive and bad. And it’s like, well, we’re going to have pizza. We’re going to have

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pepperoni and shards of glass. That’ll be great. You like pepperoni.

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But I don’t like shards of glass.

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Hey, pepperoni. Did I show you the pepperoni?

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I don’t think bipartisan coalitions work well.

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I think ideological extreme coalitions, right and left, work together.

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When the governing classes get together, That’s when you have bipartisan agreement.

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Everybody can agree, Republicans and Democrats,

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for campaign finance laws to make it impossible

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for anybody to ever raise enough money to beat an incumbent.

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Everybody in favor of that?

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Aye, everybody loves that.

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How about term limits?

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Term limits are very bad because I’m in

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and why would I want to leave in six years?

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Bipartisan opposition, term limits, bad.

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So then, whenever the interests of the

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governing class align, you can have bipartisan. Do you think we should be able to have earmarks

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where we give money to our friends and then maybe get campaign contributions and I do

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it and you do it? Yeah, that’s a good idea. We all agree on that, that bipartisan. Where

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you get left-right coalitions for liberty, which is where folks on the right and the left

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are in opposition to something the government’s doing

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or threatening to do.

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You saw this on term limits.

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This was an issue right and left.

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Each thought, you know, if we had more open elections,

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if you didn’t have so many incumbents running all the time,

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you could have challengers that would do better.

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And people on the left thought, we will benefit.

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People on the right thought, we will benefit because we believe the people are with us.

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But whatever it is, the people will win rather than the incumbents.

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Ralph Nader and I worked together on transparency.

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We went to the early Bush administration, Bush 43.

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We now name them like Henry VIII.

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Bush, not 41, 43.

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And said, we think you guys should push for transparency and put every check

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written by the federal government online. A number of states do this. Rick Perry, actually,

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of Texas, was the first governor to do it by executive order. If he bought a ham sandwich

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on the state’s budget for lunch, it went online. You could go see it. You could check all the magazine subscriptions that Texas does.

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And it opens up what the government’s doing to everybody to look at it.

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Now, Ralph Nader has this theory that if everybody looked at how the federal government was spending our money,

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they’d go, hey, Myrtle, look at that.

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They’re spending our money so wisely.

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Let’s go give them more.

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My view is that people might have a different take on that,

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but Ralph and I both can agree that the government should be transparent

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so people can see what’s going on and then make their own decisions.

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He has a different idea of what people would choose than I do.

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But the point is we want the relationship between the government and the people.

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We have the same sense of what it should be, which is the people should be fully informed when the government’s working with them so people can know what’s going on.

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So as you work through these issues, criminal justice reform, all the conservative groups, I mean all of them from the Christian Coalition, I guess that’s gone,

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but Faith and Freedom, which is Ralph Reed’s new group, set of Christian Coalition, very active on criminal justice reform, by which I mean fewer people should be in prison for shorter periods of time for a fewer number of crimes.

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less destructive of human liberty.

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And families, if somebody can, in Georgia,

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they were showing me they put people out on parole or probation,

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and they say, buy a cell phone.

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We will call you six times a day.

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We’re letting you out of prison sooner than we would,

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but we will call you six times. We won’t.

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The computer will call you six times a day.

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We know from GPS where you are,

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and you answer the phone and just read your name.

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The computer will know it’s your name,

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and as long as you’re at work or at home or wherever you’re supposed to be, you’re fine.

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You’re cool. You can be with your family. You can work. You can go to school. You can do whatever you need to do.

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You’re not taken miles away from your family and taken away from

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your family and the neighborhood and you can work rather than be put in a box.

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And it’s a lot less expensive than putting people in a box because you don’t have to hire all these

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prison guards who are Democrats anyway.

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So both right and left can take a look at this and say this is a better way to do it.

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And the NAACP works with us and each of the various – ACLU is extremely good on this. The other questions, not just can we put people into drug courts rather than regular prison courts,

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can we think about decriminalizing a number of things in the drug war,

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do we need to continue the drug war,

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and at what intensity, if you’re going to have a stupid drug war,

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how nasty do you have to be at the end of the day?

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These are all issues where there’s a growing right-left consensus.

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And what happens is when you’re doing something that challenges everybody’s,

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all the beautiful people, all the smart people, the establishment,

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we all know that long prison sentences discourage crime.

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So shut up. Go away.

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So if you’re trying to say, wait a minute, there might be

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another view, you have to be able to communicate to people. And that’s why very left of center

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group structures and leaders and very right of center structures and leaders can each talk to

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their constituents and say, guys, I know you’ve been told that this putting everybody in prison

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for long periods of time, make sure that 74-year-olds don’t rob banks and steal cars.

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But in point of fact, there’s another way to do it.

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And I can talk to a constituency and say this is a good idea and here is why.

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And the NAACP talks to different constituencies, here’s why, and the ACLU as well.

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And the head of the Republican Party and the head of the Democratic Party wouldn’t give that

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statement and they can’t

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because they don’t have the credibility

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on the issue

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you’re a Democrat and I’m a Democrat

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but that doesn’t

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but if somebody who looks up

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to the NAACP or the ACLU

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on specific issues

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when those issues come up

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and the validator says,

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this is, I think you should take a look at this argument, this is important, this works,

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we’ve been doing it a different way, we’re going to try a different way,

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then people can come in.

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They cannot, Time Magazine cannot talk to people who are political activists

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and convince them to take a new approach to something because they don’t have the credibility,

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nor do establishmentarian elected officials,

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which is why those guys who always put themselves in the golden mean in the House and the Senate,

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all the congressmen and senators who are always thoughtful and moderate and so on,

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they never get anything done because they can’t ever motivate public opinion to move somewhere.

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They’re the ones that when we finished our jobs and we’ve moved the whole country this way or that way on an issue

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and they’re right in the middle as they’ve been, they’re sitting

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on the hammock and we moved the whole structure over this way. Now they’re over here and they’re

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like, wow, we finally won. Okay. We just moved the sofa they were sitting on. And they’re

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where we wanted them to be, but they’re happy because they’re right in the middle once again

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of, and therefore must be the correct golden mean. So in putting together coalitions, the first

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thought is you get the most liberal Republican and the most conservative Democrat and put them

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in a room. Neither of them has constituencies. Neither of them can get people to do things or

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rethink anything because each of them is sort of moved where they are because of where they think

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everybody else is. They’re not leaders. They’re followers. And so because of where they think everybody else is.

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They’re not leaders.

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They’re followers.

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And so they don’t lead these fights.

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You actually end up with Ron Paul, who convinces more than 300 people we should audit the Fed,

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which nobody thought was a good idea.

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And we had, you know, 300-plus members of the House who have co-sponsored the legislation,

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and many of whom have actually voted for it.

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It’s the Senate we have the challenge with.

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But that effort, Bernie Sanders is more likely to put a new issue on the agenda than Mancum of West Virginia, for instance.

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So left-right coalitions work well when everybody’s there on principle.

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When we get together and talk about criminal justice reform,

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there are issues we won’t agree on.

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Some people are for the death penalty, Some people aren’t. Not an area of

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consensus. Not one we work on. But do we have to have mandatory minimums? I mean, I testified

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against the mandatory minimums on crack cocaine, gosh, maybe a decade ago or so, a while ago.

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And in front of me, I had the little list of all of the crimes for which you had mandatory minimums.

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And all of them were press conferences.

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So the mandatory minimum for treason in the United States is five years.

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The mandatory minimum for dirty pictures is 35 years.

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Why?

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Because the guy did the press conference, and when he said, I really, really really really am against this the the underlining

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on the really was 35 years I’m really into it really mandatory minimum and so when people

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decide they don’t like carjacking because evidently we have to have a federal law against

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carjacking because the 50 states never consider this a problem no but the you know there were

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laws against carjacking in all 50 states,

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but the guy wanted to have a press conference and tell everybody he was against carjacking,

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in case you wondered, and said, I’m really against it, so he puts a mandatory minimum on.

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And then years later, we’re stuck with that federal mandatory minimum, regardless of how

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the world has moved on and whether people might want to rethink that.

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So you want right-left coalitions

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where everybody’s working on principles

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so nobody’s ever voting for anything or arguing for something

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they don’t actually support.

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It’s not like I’m for most of this.

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You find out things you can be all for.

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And then nobody feels they’re taken advantage of.

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If you have coalitions and one team’s slightly, the head of one guy is smarter than the other guy or

00:20:48 ►

rather the guy who writes the bill, you know, slips something in, then you don’t ever get

00:20:53 ►

together again to work on project two, three, or four.

00:20:57 ►

So it’s very important that these are not one-off fights, one-off coalitions. One-off

00:21:04 ►

coalitions never get together again.

00:21:06 ►

It’s a lot of work to get a coalition together.

00:21:08 ►

When we worked with the ACLU, I remember during the Clinton years at first,

00:21:12 ►

the ACLU would come in with some challenge because Clinton was a little bit problematic on civil liberties issues.

00:21:18 ►

And in a center-right coalition, they’d be stuttering, oh, the ACLU’s in here.

00:21:22 ►

What’s that all about?

00:21:23 ►

And the third time they came in, they go, okay, what are they doing now?

00:21:26 ►

And there was an understanding

00:21:28 ►

that they would come in and

00:21:30 ►

work with us on, they knew ahead of time

00:21:32 ►

this is the kind of thing I think you’d be interested in.

00:21:34 ►

The answer is, you are. Let’s work

00:21:36 ►

together. And I talk to the head

00:21:38 ►

of the ACLU all the time, what about this issue?

00:21:40 ►

Is that something that you guys are focused on

00:21:42 ►

or can? I’ve been working on

00:21:44 ►

knife rights,

00:21:45 ►

which is in the States. In the 1950s, there were these movies with switchblades, right?

00:21:53 ►

West Side Story and Rubber Without a Cause. There’s mayhem. People murdered with switchblades

00:21:59 ►

all over the country on TV and movies. And we have to do something about this, and so they ban switchblades.

00:22:06 ►

And not just you push the button, it comes out,

00:22:09 ►

but drop knives where you turn it upside down, it comes down,

00:22:11 ►

or you flip it with your finger.

00:22:12 ►

These are all switchblades in the eyes of the state.

00:22:16 ►

And in the states, tens of thousands of people in New York,

00:22:21 ►

and they target certain ethnic groups, get picked up. They say,

00:22:26 ►

open your pockets. I think you have

00:22:28 ►

marijuana in your pocket. Well, maybe marijuana,

00:22:30 ►

maybe not, but you’ve got a knife in your pocket. Ah, felony.

00:22:32 ►

You want to plead down?

00:22:34 ►

Okay. Nobody wants to go

00:22:36 ►

and deal with a felony, but with the

00:22:38 ►

knife in your pocket, felony.

00:22:40 ►

So we get the AC…

00:22:41 ►

I talked to the ACLU and the New York

00:22:44 ►

ACL wrote a very nice letter.

00:22:45 ►

We had both parties supporting it in the state legislature.

00:22:48 ►

Governor actually vetoed it, unfortunately.

00:22:51 ►

But in other states, we’ve had a whole bunch of states, blue states and red states, get rid of this.

00:22:57 ►

In Texas, the leader of the Black Caucus and the head of the NRA Texas got together and they got the knife ban undone in Texas.

00:23:07 ►

About 18 states have done this.

00:23:09 ►

But again, it’s a coalition of predominantly African-American groups, civil liberty groups,

00:23:15 ►

and the gun guys who also carry a knife with them who don’t want knives made illegal.

00:23:21 ►

And then guys who carry knives because they’re a tool.

00:23:26 ►

So these coalitions can come together

00:23:28 ►

and the trick is you’re constantly

00:23:30 ►

you work together often enough

00:23:32 ►

that you have a sense of what you might be

00:23:34 ►

able to work on

00:23:35 ►

and somebody called me the other day

00:23:38 ►

from one of the leftist center groups about the census

00:23:40 ►

and I said okay what’s the issue on the census

00:23:42 ►

but to sit down and see whether there’s

00:23:44 ►

a right left coalition in some of these areas so the takeaway is there is an ongoing effort between

00:23:52 ►

right of center and left of center groups based on principle that works on different issues which

00:23:56 ►

has had some real successes we’ve got about 25 states that have passed significant criminal

00:24:01 ►

justice reform that you would have thought was impossible X number of years ago. The fact that Texas did it first was helpful. If one of the

00:24:10 ►

problems is if Vermont had done it first, I mean, I used to go testify in Arizona and Florida. And

00:24:15 ►

when you’d say Texas did this six years ago, they’d all of a sudden put their pens down to go,

00:24:21 ►

Texas, you mean it’s not going to be soft on crime?

00:24:26 ►

I’m not going to get attacked for this.

00:24:29 ►

And six years ago, you mean they’ve had a couple of elections?

00:24:30 ►

Did anyone lose?

00:24:31 ►

They didn’t?

00:24:32 ►

You mean it’s safe?

00:24:35 ►

And so politicians love the idea because they’ve got cover,

00:24:36 ►

because it was Texas,

00:24:39 ►

and when they’re not doing criminal justice reform,

00:24:40 ►

they’re executing murderers. So nobody’s going to say this Texas idea was weak on crime.

00:24:45 ►

The same idea coming out of Vermont would have been a tougher sell

00:24:48 ►

because you just couldn’t have said to somebody,

00:24:51 ►

just tell people Vermont thought it up and it’ll be okay.

00:24:54 ►

But on criminal justice, you wanted to bring it in as the Texas idea,

00:24:57 ►

which was the first group to work on that.

00:25:00 ►

So the best coalitions come from the hard right and left. The center coalitions don’t get

00:25:07 ►

you anything except more of the same. Each of them are part of the status quo, so you’re not

00:25:13 ►

going to get dramatic changes there. But you can do, you think, oh, this is awful. It’ll take

00:25:21 ►

forever to change things. Think of the arc of some of the, I mean, again, 30 years ago, homeschooling legal in 48 states, where it was gay rights 30, or gay marriage 30

00:25:30 ►

years ago, in terms of people even thinking it was possible. There are a number of these issues

00:25:35 ►

that have moved dramatically, marijuana, medical marijuana, and recreational marijuana have both

00:25:43 ►

moved dramatically forward.

00:25:49 ►

And when you do the 50 states, which I strongly recommend on any freedom issue,

00:25:53 ►

you can beat your head against the wall on a freedom issue in Washington and maybe after 50 years get a committee hearing.

00:25:56 ►

I mean, it’s just very slow moving.

00:26:00 ►

But in a state, pick one where you think you have support,

00:26:05 ►

and then pass it there, and when things don’t go wrong and do go right,

00:26:09 ►

you then take it horizontally to other states.

00:26:13 ►

I’ve worked for at least 30 years in trying to get the Food and Drug Administration

00:26:16 ►

to speed up new drugs so it doesn’t take so long to get new drugs.

00:26:23 ►

And you talk about it, and then the FDA goes, thalidomide,

00:26:27 ►

and then you’re supposed to run away, and politicians do.

00:26:31 ►

They don’t want to play.

00:26:33 ►

Instead, what we did with Right to Try, which was to legalize drugs for the terminally ill

00:26:40 ►

that have been ruled safe by the FDA, but it’s another five years before they can

00:26:48 ►

tell you it’s effective, and I’m going to be dead in four. No, it’s not effective. We don’t know

00:26:54 ►

it’d work. I’ll take the risk. Nope, can’t do that. Not legal. Or you can get a compassionate

00:27:00 ►

use exception. Oh, how do we do that? Oh, there’s 300, not 30, 300 hours of paperwork

00:27:06 ►

that you can fill out. This is not a joke. And then you can come back and we can tell you no,

00:27:12 ►

but you’re going to not bother us for 300 hours. We got 38 states, maybe more by now, but at least

00:27:22 ►

38 states to pass a law like medical marijuana that says in our state,

00:27:26 ►

first state Colorado, second state Wisconsin, California passed it, Texas passed it.

00:27:35 ►

And California was put forward by the most progressive guy in the state legislature

00:27:40 ►

and Texas by the most conservative guy in the state legislature.

00:27:44 ►

And we got this passed in over 38 states.

00:27:47 ►

And the Senate, three weeks ago, unanimously passed the federal legislation.

00:27:54 ►

All we were doing at the state level, now the House will pass it too,

00:27:57 ►

but the Senate did it by unanimous consent.

00:28:00 ►

Any one guy could have raised his hand and gotten a conjillion dollars from the pharmaceutical industry to thank him for slowing down competing drugs.

00:28:11 ►

Or from the FDA would tell him how swell he is.

00:28:15 ►

So by taking an issue out to the states, instead of being stuck in D.C., in D.C., they know how to defend themselves against change.

00:28:27 ►

And they’ve been doing it.

00:28:28 ►

They’ve got moats and they’ve got walls and they’ve got moats and they’ve got walls

00:28:31 ►

and they’ve got committees and subcommittees.

00:28:33 ►

And they refer to something to three different committees

00:28:35 ►

and all it takes is for one of the Senate leaders to hate you or be bored

00:28:41 ►

and want to do something else and you’re screwed.

00:28:43 ►

So trying to do a frontal assault on a heavily defended position

00:28:47 ►

like the Washington establishment is difficult.

00:28:50 ►

But we surrounded it.

00:28:51 ►

I mean, I don’t know if you guys know about parallel trenching

00:28:53 ►

where you keep building the parallel trenches up to the wall

00:28:56 ►

until you can knock the wall of the forts down.

00:28:59 ►

That’s why I don’t have so many walled forts anymore in Europe

00:29:01 ►

because they don’t work against parallel trenching.

00:29:04 ►

We kept coming forward

00:29:06 ►

and surrounding them from the states

00:29:08 ►

and even the Food and Drug Administration

00:29:10 ►

supposed to be a non-political

00:29:11 ►

agency saw this coming

00:29:14 ►

and changed the 300 hour

00:29:16 ►

fill in the paperwork

00:29:18 ►

to 45 minutes

00:29:20 ►

before we’d ever

00:29:22 ►

gotten Congress to do anything.

00:29:24 ►

They backed up that much and given us that time,

00:29:28 ►

which itself was a pretty impressive victory,

00:29:31 ►

but we want the whole enchilada.

00:29:33 ►

So that’s just a modern-day, just recent example

00:29:37 ►

of where we’ve done what was impossible

00:29:40 ►

because if you keep coming up the same well-defended position,

00:29:46 ►

against the same well-defended position,

00:29:48 ►

they’ll beat you just like the last time.

00:29:50 ►

But by coming through the states, we’re able to do better.

00:29:56 ►

So I can do questions, thoughts, discussion.

00:30:00 ►

I don’t mean to just lecture here.

00:30:03 ►

But I wanted to give you some sense that this is not a theory of mine.

00:30:06 ►

This is what I’ve been doing for 20 years.

00:30:10 ►

And that we do actually get better left-right.

00:30:16 ►

And there’s all these times when it doesn’t work.

00:30:17 ►

I mean, Al Gore will come and say,

00:30:18 ►

what about this?

00:30:19 ►

And I say, I think we’ll fight you on that one.

00:30:21 ►

Okay, just checking.

00:30:23 ►

It’s not like we’re all friends and we sell out our constituents.

00:30:27 ►

Yeah, yeah, I’ll throw that one, you throw the next one.

00:30:31 ►

That’s not what’s happening.

00:30:32 ►

What makes it enduring and work is that there’s a level of trust

00:30:36 ►

between people who disagree on many issues

00:30:40 ►

but can agree on a series of principles

00:30:44 ►

because all of us fear that the other team gets the presidency

00:30:49 ►

and starts arresting us all.

00:30:51 ►

So how about if the president isn’t allowed to arrest us all?

00:30:54 ►

Okay, we can agree on that and work on those issues.

00:30:58 ►

Yeah?

00:30:59 ►

Anyway, early in your talk you mentioned people coming together

00:31:02 ►

to align on issues for different reasons.

00:31:06 ►

But then many times you said people coming together to align on issues for different reasons, but then many times you said people coming together on

00:31:08 ►

principle. I’m

00:31:10 ►

curious for you to expand

00:31:11 ►

on what you mean by

00:31:14 ►

principle and whether you think

00:31:16 ►

that there are like right principles

00:31:18 ►

or whether different people coming together

00:31:20 ►

on different principles is fine

00:31:22 ►

as long as the end goal of their

00:31:23 ►

maybe competing principles

00:31:25 ►

lines up with each other am i expressing something that pings something in your head yeah okay what

00:31:29 ►

when i say principles i mean um transparency we would agree on the principle that the government

00:31:38 ►

should be transparent to the american people i don’t think the american people should be

00:31:43 ►

transparent to the government i don’t think your American people should be transparent to the government. I don’t think your

00:31:45 ►

tax returns or your private

00:31:47 ►

life or your indebtedness

00:31:50 ►

or how much money you have in the bank

00:31:51 ►

or don’t have in the bank or what your credit

00:31:53 ►

card says, that’s not for the government to know.

00:31:56 ►

But it is for you to know

00:31:57 ►

everything the government does

00:31:59 ►

and how much they spend

00:32:02 ►

the money and what they spend it on and what they’re doing

00:32:04 ►

because you’re allowed to elect people to oversee that.

00:32:08 ►

So the principle is that people have the right to know what the government’s doing.

00:32:11 ►

Or homeschooling, parents should have the right to raise their own kids and to educate them,

00:32:17 ►

and that’s the principle.

00:32:18 ►

They should be left alone.

00:32:19 ►

And my uncle’s kids were homeschooled, sort of.

00:32:29 ►

I guess homeschooled, yeah.

00:32:30 ►

In a very left-wing commune.

00:32:33 ►

Because they couldn’t stand the Pledge of Allegiance and stuff being said in public schools.

00:32:37 ►

And then there are guys who homeschool because they want to be able to count saints instead of apples.

00:32:43 ►

When they do math. Okay. Everybody gets to decide what they want to be able to count saints instead of apples when they do math.

00:32:46 ►

Everybody gets to decide

00:32:47 ►

what they want to do.

00:32:50 ►

If you just go in and say,

00:32:52 ►

my friend should be able to do this,

00:32:54 ►

that’s not a principle.

00:32:56 ►

But if you say, everybody

00:32:58 ►

should be able to do this,

00:33:00 ►

then you’re beginning to talk about

00:33:02 ►

a principle.

00:33:03 ►

They may want to do it for different reasons.

00:33:06 ►

Ralph Nieder thinks that transparency will lead to his policies winning.

00:33:10 ►

I think it will lead to my policies.

00:33:12 ►

But we’re both talking about if the people were better informed,

00:33:14 ►

they’d agree with, and we’d each answer in chorus, me.

00:33:18 ►

Fair enough. Thank you.

00:33:20 ►

A second question is,

00:33:22 ►

you mentioned wanting to get the whole enchilada on the food and drug issue.

00:33:26 ►

I’m curious what you, I don’t know exactly what your view of the whole enchilada is for Liberty, period.

00:33:33 ►

But what is your sense or hope or thoughts about all of the incremental changes that you’ve worked towards for so long?

00:33:47 ►

Sure.

00:33:47 ►

Adding up.

00:33:48 ►

Yeah.

00:33:48 ►

I’ve never been in a room where I wasn’t the most radical person in the room,

00:33:52 ►

and I’ve never been in a room where I wasn’t the most patient person in the world.

00:33:56 ►

And I am always willing to compromise on the road to liberty,

00:34:00 ►

meaning I realize I’m not going to get there as fast as I want.

00:34:05 ►

I want to get there as fast as I can, but I’m not going to hit my head against the wall

00:34:09 ►

when I realize that other things distract people.

00:34:13 ►

Not everybody sees what you see.

00:34:14 ►

It takes time to educate a cadre to work with you.

00:34:18 ►

You’ve only got so much bandwidth yourself.

00:34:20 ►

If you have 20 things that drive you nuts, you can’t run 20 projects at once.

00:34:29 ►

Samuel Gomper’s

00:34:31 ►

labor leader, inventor of the Chinese Exclusion Act

00:34:36 ►

and other racist laws, but labor leader, we’ll start with that.

00:34:40 ►

He was asked, what does labor want?

00:34:45 ►

More. What does labor want? More.

00:34:47 ►

What do I want?

00:34:48 ►

Less.

00:34:49 ►

How much government power should there be?

00:34:51 ►

Less.

00:34:52 ►

I’m always asked, what do you want to take it down to?

00:34:56 ►

Less.

00:34:57 ►

And when we get to here, you’ll stop, right?

00:34:59 ►

We’ll see.

00:35:01 ►

We may get down to where the government’s this big,

00:35:03 ►

and I go, okay, it’s pretty safe.

00:35:05 ►

Put a hat over it, and we’ll keep an eye on it.

00:35:08 ►

Or not.

00:35:09 ►

I’m not going to concede.

00:35:11 ►

How big does it have to be?

00:35:13 ►

I don’t know.

00:35:13 ►

It’s too big right now.

00:35:15 ►

It’s got too much power.

00:35:16 ►

We’re chipping away at this thing,

00:35:18 ►

and I think I could have several lifetimes

00:35:21 ►

and not worry about hitting any muscle or vital organs.

00:35:26 ►

So, yes, what’s the whole onslaught?

00:35:28 ►

The whole onslaught on Right to Try is that one project.

00:35:31 ►

They were willing to compromise if we’d go away, and the answer was, not now,

00:35:36 ►

because we’re winning.

00:35:38 ►

If you’d offered us that, oh, ten years ago, we’d have gone, woo, aren’t we cool?

00:35:45 ►

But not now, no.

00:35:46 ►

Yeah.

00:35:48 ►

Thank you for being willing to

00:35:50 ►

try to do everything you do, even though you don’t

00:35:52 ►

think you’ll get all the way

00:35:54 ►

there. I appreciate that. I hope we will.

00:35:56 ►

We’ll keep at it.

00:35:59 ►

Thank you.

00:36:00 ►

Can I ask two more questions, or are people sick of me?

00:36:03 ►

He has

00:36:04 ►

a question.

00:36:06 ►

How about him and then you’re two?

00:36:09 ►

So even when people agree on principle, they often disagree about a lot of other principles.

00:36:15 ►

How do you, both when you’re dealing with sort of like organizational leaders like the ACLU and the NAACP and the NRA,

00:36:24 ►

but also at the sort of activist level

00:36:26 ►

where I think the ideological differences are probably even stronger.

00:36:29 ►

How do you manage repugnance when you’re building collisions?

00:36:32 ►

Like as a practical matter of like the personalities, the relationships that get built, and then

00:36:37 ►

like selling it to the constituents.

00:36:39 ►

Like people will come together over stuff, but they hate each other for a lot of other

00:36:43 ►

reasons.

00:36:43 ►

How do you deal with that?

00:36:45 ►

Yeah, that’s a very good question.

00:36:48 ►

There is a very prominent conservative group that understands the importance of civil liberties

00:36:54 ►

and is quite sure that its membership doesn’t.

00:36:57 ►

And they contribute to another group to push that within the conservative movement

00:37:02 ►

so as not to end up with that confusion. They hope over time that people

00:37:08 ►

will get why that’s important, but they’re a single issue

00:37:12 ►

group and they think it would confuse

00:37:16 ►

their donors, their supporters, their activists, their voters

00:37:20 ►

if they were seen working with these other people who on so many

00:37:24 ►

other issues would be in

00:37:26 ►

disagreement and on that one I mean in some cases I mean I don’t have a problem I run a taxpayer

00:37:32 ►

group and people know that I am open to working with all folks who want to advance liberty in

00:37:39 ►

their own zone doesn’t mean I agree with them on 21 things or even seven things. And part of it, I think, is we’re getting better.

00:37:48 ►

I run a coalition meeting every Wednesday in a room a little bit bigger than this.

00:37:52 ►

We have put 150 people.

00:37:54 ►

They’re risers.

00:37:54 ►

So if you’re back, you know, four rows, you’re up a couple feet.

00:38:01 ►

So everybody can see everybody.

00:38:02 ►

30 people, 30 of the 150 will present for three minutes each week.

00:38:09 ►

So a 90-minute, hour-and-a-half conversation.

00:38:12 ►

I’m here tomorrow, not there, so I have a guy who takes my place,

00:38:16 ►

or several people who do if I’m traveling, but I’m there 90% of the time.

00:38:21 ►

And that’s a group of leaders of various right of center structures

00:38:25 ►

where left of center guys come in

00:38:27 ►

regularly to present on different

00:38:29 ►

projects and people get

00:38:31 ►

that this is going to happen. The first

00:38:33 ►

couple times people go oh that seems odd

00:38:35 ►

but

00:38:37 ►

we had Soros come by

00:38:39 ►

because he wanted to. He wanted to see what

00:38:41 ►

we were doing and how this worked and so on because

00:38:43 ►

he’d heard about it from Nader and Al Gore, who’d also been by.

00:38:49 ►

And it was helpful for him to understand who we are and what we were doing,

00:38:53 ►

and people were sitting there going, well, what about this issue?

00:38:56 ►

Is this one that you’re working on that we could, you know?

00:39:00 ►

People were looking for areas of agreement, not disagreement.

00:39:04 ►

And I’ve been, when people have asked, the Senate meeting we have, general rules are you can only talk about what you’re doing,

00:39:11 ►

not what your ridiculous hopes and aspirations are, not how much of an idiot somebody else is,

00:39:17 ►

how you should have won the last election, or the president should do this.

00:39:22 ►

If the president did this, it would happen.

00:39:24 ►

Yes, thank you.

00:39:25 ►

I suppose that’s true.

00:39:26 ►

Are you going to make it happen?

00:39:27 ►

No, I just thought I’d share with you that, you know,

00:39:30 ►

somebody should do X.

00:39:32 ►

Not me.

00:39:33 ►

I don’t do Windows, but somebody should do X.

00:39:34 ►

These are not useful conversations.

00:39:36 ►

And so when we put the meeting together,

00:39:41 ►

I designed it.

00:39:43 ►

There’s a wonderful story,

00:39:47 ►

and I don’t know whose anecdote it is.

00:39:54 ►

A fellow goes up and talks to an artist and says, a sculptor, and says, that is a wonderful sculpture of Zeus that you have created. How did you do that? And he said, I started with this big

00:40:00 ►

block of marble, and I took away all the bits that didn’t look like Zeus. And so that’s what you have.

00:40:06 ►

In building a coalition meeting that worked,

00:40:10 ►

I just put in my head all of the things that other meetings I’ve been in

00:40:13 ►

that I thought didn’t work.

00:40:15 ►

Let’s take that out and this out and not do this and not do that.

00:40:19 ►

And pretty soon you had a meeting that was doing pretty good things.

00:40:23 ►

But we didn’t construct it from nothing up.

00:40:26 ►

We constructed it from other attempts at doing things and where I’d see over the years,

00:40:32 ►

this always gets in the way.

00:40:35 ►

Well, how about if we don’t do that?

00:40:37 ►

Doctor, it hurts when I do this. Don’t do that.

00:40:41 ►

So that’s the structure.

00:40:43 ►

And I think we’re on the center right.

00:40:45 ►

And with the leadership of the left of center groups, we’re doing better at getting them to understand that we can work together.

00:40:55 ►

It also helps the Republicans have had the House of Representatives almost for all but four years since 94.

00:41:05 ►

since 94 and at that point they decided we’d better have relationships with the right of center right groups because sometimes you need the house um if you’re going to pass legislation

00:41:10 ►

that’s helped too so the left structures have been more active but also a younger group of

00:41:17 ►

people came up i think i had one of the older leaders of the right-of-center groups just have a hissy fit that we’d had Soros come to our meeting.

00:41:29 ►

And at first I thought he didn’t understand why or something,

00:41:32 ►

so I tried to explain to him.

00:41:34 ►

And he just couldn’t get past,

00:41:36 ►

why would you talk to or listen to somebody

00:41:39 ►

with whom he has these disagreements?

00:41:43 ►

I thought Soros was fascinating.

00:41:45 ►

He said, really, I’m a liberal Republican.

00:41:47 ►

I just hate Bush because he invaded Iraq.

00:41:49 ►

I grew up in Hungary, so I hate Nazis and I hate communists

00:41:52 ►

and I hate people in uniforms and I don’t like wars.

00:41:55 ►

And you’re not going to get that out of me.

00:41:59 ►

So I see all the funny uniforms and they scare me

00:42:03 ►

and I want to go fight it.

00:42:05 ►

He said something that was fascinating.

00:42:07 ►

He said he wasn’t political at all until, for family reasons, which he didn’t explain,

00:42:14 ►

it became important to him that the 50 states used to have 50, not 50, but more than one,

00:42:21 ►

several definitions of death.

00:42:24 ►

Heart death, brain dead, different things.

00:42:28 ►

Poke you with a pin.

00:42:30 ►

They each had some rule, and they weren’t the same.

00:42:32 ►

They could move you from one state to another.

00:42:34 ►

He’s dead. No, he’s not.

00:42:36 ►

His heart’s not going, but he has brain waves.

00:42:39 ►

And I went back when he told me.

00:42:43 ►

I said, I got that fixed.

00:42:48 ►

And then I got more involved in politics.

00:42:50 ►

And I thought, how did I miss that?

00:42:54 ►

How did something as touchy, I would have thought, as end of life, like when are you dead, right?

00:43:02 ►

How did that not engender massive fights with pro-lifers or all sorts of, you know, everything?

00:43:04 ►

Didn’t.

00:43:05 ►

And I went back and looked it up.

00:43:09 ►

There’s actually a book of state laws that are all very much alike,

00:43:13 ►

and there’s a group that tries to get all the state laws to be similar so you can move from one state to another

00:43:15 ►

or do direct mail into all 50 states

00:43:17 ►

and know that you’re following the rules

00:43:20 ►

because the rules are not radically different for no reason at all.

00:43:24 ►

And that

00:43:25 ►

group did, perhaps with Soros’ help, according to him, normalize, come up with one simple

00:43:33 ►

definition of who’s dead and who’s not. Probably ruins all the zombie movies. But anyway, the

00:43:39 ►

state laws are now uniform, and it happened the year that he said he was doing it. So

00:43:44 ►

I’m assuming that he’s telling the truth year that he said he was doing it so I’m

00:43:45 ►

assuming that he’s telling the truth that he was active in that.

00:43:50 ►

It seems like elected officials use the word liberty far more than they do today

00:43:55 ►

like it seems like the actual word has left the lexicon of like elected officials

00:43:59 ►

why is that and does that have an impact um because people say democracy and um democracy

00:44:07 ►

is a better way of picking the next king than the guy’s son you know i mean who’s going to

00:44:12 ►

administer the laws well you have caesar and then caesar augustus but there seemed to be a civil war

00:44:18 ►

in between and then there was another civil war uh and kings are very bad about remembering to have enough kids. And when they do, the

00:44:26 ►

kids don’t all agree as to who should be the king. So with democracy, you have far fewer

00:44:34 ►

civil wars about who’s the governor, who’s the president, things like that. So I think

00:44:39 ►

democracy is very good. And certainly better than letting some ethnic group or some aristocracy make these decisions.

00:44:46 ►

But what matters is the laws, not the guy who goes, yes, that’s the law.

00:44:53 ►

I read the law.

00:44:54 ►

Okay, good.

00:44:55 ►

You could have been the king.

00:44:56 ►

You could have been elected.

00:44:57 ►

But if you’re really enforcing the law as what’s the law say?

00:45:01 ►

And I think the Constitution does a pretty good job, except for allowing the post office

00:45:05 ►

to define what a free society should look like. Good framework. And so I think what

00:45:12 ►

we want to maintain is liberty, freedom, or get back to in some cases, or move forward

00:45:17 ►

to it in other cases, like the stupid post office. And so I focus on liberty because

00:45:24 ►

when you work in other countries

00:45:26 ►

we go around and lie to everybody in the world all the time

00:45:30 ►

we tell the people in Zimbabwe

00:45:31 ►

if you had elections you’d be rich like us

00:45:33 ►

what’s different is we’re a democracy and you’re not

00:45:36 ►

so they had an election, didn’t make them rich

00:45:37 ►

it was all tribal

00:45:41 ►

the election was everybody voted for the head Shona guy.

00:45:47 ►

It’s not democracy.

00:45:49 ►

Secret sauce isn’t democracy.

00:45:50 ►

It’s rule of law.

00:46:00 ►

And instead of rule of whim of the king or the prince or the aristocracy or the experts or the mob, democracy.

00:46:05 ►

So I think representative government where you elect people is a good way of choosing leaders and cycling them out

00:46:08 ►

I’d like term limits too, you know they didn’t have term limits

00:46:11 ►

in the constitution because when it was discussed they said

00:46:14 ►

well of course everyone will cycle out

00:46:16 ►

that’s the noble thing to do

00:46:19 ►

not noble like aristocracy but they didn’t think you had to do that

00:46:23 ►

yes you did

00:46:24 ►

hey there, I really like your comment not noble like aristocracy, but that’s, they didn’t think you had to do that. Yes, you did.

00:46:29 ►

Hey there. I really like your comment, wrote it down,

00:46:32 ►

secret sauce of democracy is rule of law.

00:46:37 ►

I have two topics of interest. I’d love to hear you riff on both or either.

00:46:43 ►

One is, if you look at Cato Institute and so on, there’s a very necessary and powerful role for regulation

00:46:46 ►

within a libertarian society.

00:46:49 ►

It’s not anarchy.

00:46:51 ►

And people think that libertarians don’t believe in regulation.

00:46:54 ►

And I try to explain that the fundamentals of freedom

00:46:58 ►

depend on having a facilitator sometimes step in

00:47:03 ►

and help coordinate where those boundaries are.

00:47:07 ►

No more, no less.

00:47:09 ►

And I’d love to have your reaction to that.

00:47:14 ►

And the second thing I’d love to hear your thoughts on would be blockchain technology

00:47:19 ►

and how blockchain is, you know, everything from decentralized autonomous organizations,

00:47:24 ►

everything from decentralized autonomous organizations smart contracts and the role that blockchain can play

00:47:28 ►

in society which is a very very broad model but I’d love to know if you’ve had a chance

00:47:33 ►

to explore that concept as well

00:47:36 ►

yeah the Burning Man

00:47:41 ►

is a structure if you read its history where the anarchists and the libertarians have fought,

00:47:45 ►

but the libertarians tend to win.

00:47:47 ►

So we have minimal rules, not none.

00:47:50 ►

And every time you think it’s going to fall apart,

00:47:54 ►

they go for some rules, but not bunches of rules.

00:47:58 ►

And they also think about it over time,

00:48:01 ►

and they don’t rush to some extreme position. We have a problem, you know, we’ll

00:48:09 ►

hit the fly with a sledgehammer. A free society doesn’t mean a society with no government.

00:48:16 ►

It’s a society, which you want, what I would like to have happen is minimize the role of

00:48:21 ►

violence in society. And government is organized violence, or the threat of violence.

00:48:26 ►

Between behind every law, there’s a gun.

00:48:33 ►

There’s a law against that.

00:48:35 ►

Yeah, so what?

00:48:35 ►

Well, I’ll shoot you if you do it.

00:48:38 ►

No, you won’t.

00:48:39 ►

You’ll arrest me.

00:48:40 ►

Okay, but if you don’t agree to be arrested, I’ll shoot you.

00:48:43 ►

So, again, there’s a threat of violence behind any law

00:48:46 ►

and if there’s no threat of violence

00:48:48 ►

then the law will be ignored

00:48:51 ►

and it’s not a law

00:48:53 ►

it’s not a real law

00:48:55 ►

but I think you want to see how we have

00:48:58 ►

how do you have a society with the greatest amount of voluntary exchange

00:49:04 ►

voluntary agreements, voluntary structures,

00:49:07 ►

and the least amount of coercive law.

00:49:12 ►

I think it was a mistake when people put marriage into the hands of the government.

00:49:17 ►

You know, I mean, marriage is a contract.

00:49:19 ►

There’s no reason the government should be involved other than to enforce a contract that people have already agreed to.

00:49:23 ►

But contracts can, you know, when you buy and sell cars, you can buy them now, you can lease them,

00:49:28 ►

you can change them. I mean, there are lots of ways to have contracts. You don’t have to have

00:49:32 ►

one best way to do a contract. We do that to marriage, but we don’t do it to how you buy a

00:49:38 ►

house or a car. You think marriage is more important, that there’d be more options, more freedom. So I do think that it’s very, sometimes people

00:49:48 ►

go, oh, you want to have a regulation, you’re a communist. Well,

00:49:52 ►

maybe they are, but not necessarily. Somebody wants

00:49:56 ►

a regulation. You don’t want a regulation, you’re an anarchist.

00:50:00 ►

There’s a golden mean of really teeny, limited, competent

00:50:04 ►

government, which is rare in the world.

00:50:07 ►

But you’ve had periods of history where a government has been both small,

00:50:11 ►

limited, and competent for some period of time.

00:50:16 ►

And you worry about either having no law,

00:50:20 ►

so people have no protections against people who work outside the law,

00:50:23 ►

criminals, or yet too much law.

00:50:27 ►

And over history, more people have been murdered by their governments than by foreign invaders.

00:50:33 ►

So I kind of think fear of one state is a rational fear in history.

00:50:38 ►

It’s a greater fear than the Canadian hordes.

00:50:42 ►

And while I’m keeping an eye on them,

00:50:47 ►

I mean, but again, you go through history.

00:50:49 ►

I mean, Soviet Union’s killed more of its own people

00:50:51 ►

than other people in the world.

00:50:56 ►

China, too.

00:50:57 ►

I mean, you go through the whole list.

00:50:59 ►

Even reasonably nice countries

00:51:00 ►

have killed more of their own people than other people.

00:51:04 ►

So we’re trying to

00:51:06 ►

prune back

00:51:08 ►

excesses and threats and I guess

00:51:09 ►

one, I’m an

00:51:11 ►

opportunist

00:51:12 ►

advocate of liberty

00:51:15 ►

when there’s an opportunity to

00:51:17 ►

have a win I take it even if it’s not

00:51:19 ►

the most important project of the day

00:51:21 ►

if it’s there and you can do it, do it

00:51:24 ►

and work on other things at the same time.

00:51:27 ►

But I’m not sure I followed the second question.

00:51:30 ►

You may be ahead of me, then I’m not.

00:51:32 ►

Blockchain technology has some fundamental principles

00:51:37 ►

around decentralization.

00:51:40 ►

I’ll just put that there.

00:51:41 ►

There’s a lot of directions you can go with that,

00:51:43 ►

and I’m not sure if you’ve had the opportunity to explore that thinking.

00:51:47 ►

No, I work with Hernando de Soto, the Peruvian economist

00:51:49 ►

who works on titling land in the third world.

00:51:54 ►

There is in shanty towns, Cairo, outside of Cairo,

00:51:59 ►

every Latin American capital that you go to,

00:52:02 ►

there’s a shanty town outside, and there are houses.

00:52:05 ►

There are some things that are hovels.

00:52:07 ►

There are some things that are houses.

00:52:09 ►

There are buildings that are four floors tall,

00:52:13 ►

but there’s no title to them.

00:52:15 ►

Everybody agrees that George lives there,

00:52:19 ►

but George can’t really sell it,

00:52:21 ►

and George can’t borrow against it,

00:52:23 ►

and he can’t sell half of it to somebody

00:52:25 ►

else like a share, like stocks or something. And Hernando de Soto wanted to convince the

00:52:32 ►

Peruvian government, who was a Japanese Peruvian guy, that they should title all the land in

00:52:39 ►

Peru because then the Shining Path, which was an armed resistance movement trying to overthrow the government of Peru,

00:52:45 ►

had been going in and threatening peasants, title-less landowners, land controllers but not owners.

00:52:53 ►

And he went to them and he did two interesting things.

00:52:55 ►

He went back to the history of the United States occupation of Japan, where we titled all of Japan.

00:53:03 ►

Japan, where we titled all of Japan.

00:53:09 ►

So there were guys who had three acres or five acres of rice land that everybody agreed in the neighborhood, that we agreed it belongs to him.

00:53:13 ►

And they put up these signs, because not everybody spoke English over there, oddly.

00:53:19 ►

And there’d be this little dog barking.

00:53:20 ►

And the dogs know whose property it is, but it’s not titled.

00:53:26 ►

If somebody comes on your property, the dog barks at them. But other than the dog and you, nobody else knows

00:53:31 ►

it’s yours. So they titled all of Japan. The theory was if they were all farmers and they

00:53:36 ►

all owned land, they’d be like Iowa and not want to invite other places, which has worked

00:53:40 ►

fairly well. And so Japan did that, and it brought peace and a great level of equality

00:53:47 ►

everyone was a landowner

00:53:48 ►

and had a stake in what’s going on

00:53:52 ►

and then you can borrow against your land and start a business

00:53:55 ►

you don’t have to have somebody stay there

00:53:58 ►

so the wife can work or the kids can all go to school

00:54:00 ►

nobody has to stick around and defend the shanty or the land.

00:54:05 ►

And they did this in Peru. They flew over with brownie cameras and took pictures and

00:54:10 ►

marked people’s property. And then we sat around. Everybody in the village agreed that

00:54:16 ►

the drawing on the picture was correct and this is who owns what. Now we have Google

00:54:21 ►

Maps. And now we have Facebook. So you can go in and hand Google Map to

00:54:27 ►

everybody in Egypt and look around Cairo

00:54:31 ►

and draw the map in a matter of weeks. Does everybody agree?

00:54:35 ►

You’ve got Facebook to talk about it. And Egypt has actually agreed to do this.

00:54:39 ►

As has Tunisia and

00:54:42 ►

Algeria.

00:54:49 ►

One of the things that I was surprised to learn was, remember the guy in Tunisia who burned himself up that started the Arab Spring?

00:54:54 ►

He had just been expropriated.

00:54:57 ►

The police had taken his cart that he sold things.

00:55:00 ►

And he was so frustrated, he killed himself, burned himself up.

00:55:04 ►

There were 63 people who torched themselves from Morocco to Israel,

00:55:08 ►

all the way across, and Egypt and the whole area.

00:55:11 ►

Every one of them had been expropriated.

00:55:14 ►

Not one of them said, how come we never get to go to church often enough?

00:55:18 ►

Never.

00:55:18 ►

None of them said, I’d like to have elections on Tuesday.

00:55:21 ►

This was not a religious fanatic thing.

00:55:24 ►

This was not a religious fanatic thing. This was not a democracy

00:55:26 ►

thing. This was a property rights

00:55:28 ►

revolt and the ability to earn a living

00:55:29 ►

without the government stealing your stuff.

00:55:32 ►

And the whole reaction

00:55:34 ►

to it in each of these countries, with

00:55:35 ►

possible exception of Tunisia, was to

00:55:37 ►

get it wrong about what they were

00:55:39 ►

trying to placate. Because the guys

00:55:41 ►

with the biggest megaphones said,

00:55:44 ►

oh, you know that guy killed a… ah ah because he’s a religious fanatic or because he wants to have elections or whatever

00:55:49 ►

my agenda is was his agenda um not all of the 63 ended up dying so hernando de soto interviewed a

00:55:56 ►

bunch the ones who lived and they were all expropriated nobody said al akbar when they died

00:56:01 ►

you know this um so it was a very interesting reaction,

00:56:06 ►

and that’s the part of the world that is most interested in titling.

00:56:10 ►

If you were to title all of the shanty towns,

00:56:13 ►

I’m not talking about the farm, the Brazilian forest or something,

00:56:19 ►

but the stuff where people have buildings on now.

00:56:22 ►

If you were to title it, it’d be $18 trillion with a T

00:56:27 ►

dollars worth of property. We could give the world, like in foreign aid, $18 trillion of property

00:56:35 ►

that they do not own now that they could borrow against, sell, and work on, and fix it up because you don’t fix it up if it’s not yours.

00:56:45 ►

You don’t wash a rented car.

00:56:48 ►

So, I mean, this is, I think, a revolutionary thing.

00:56:51 ►

And blockchain makes it possible.

00:56:53 ►

Sorry, she asked about blockchain.

00:56:54 ►

Back to blockchain.

00:56:56 ►

Blockchain makes this possible because instead of saying we’re going to fill out a piece of paper

00:56:59 ►

and put it at the local church or the local mayor’s office,

00:57:02 ►

oh, great, the mayors are crook and I don’t go to that church,

00:57:04 ►

and they can burn down. put it at the local church or the local mayor’s office. Oh, great, the mayors are crook and I don’t go to that church.

00:57:07 ►

And they can burn down.

00:57:12 ►

No, no, we’re going to put it in a thousand different places in blockchain.

00:57:17 ►

And the whole world and universe will know that’s yours.

00:57:19 ►

Now you’ve got something.

00:57:21 ►

And it’s going to do it.

00:57:23 ►

I don’t know if you’re invested in any titling companies here. I haven’t had a chance to talk to the American titling industry.

00:57:26 ►

But they go out and spend a lot of money to get all the titles in a state or a city.

00:57:32 ►

And then they’re the guys who can tell you who owns what.

00:57:36 ►

Well, there’s no reason that can’t be public information for everybody.

00:57:41 ►

For a competitor titling company to move into Minnesota, which is what I’m thinking of,

00:57:46 ►

you’d have to spend $10 million up front to get all the information.

00:57:50 ►

We can make that possible in the third world, just as they got cell phones before we did.

00:57:56 ►

They just leapt ahead on the technology because they didn’t have the landlines to begin with. I think on titling, they can have more secure titles than we have to land that

00:58:09 ►

otherwise they didn’t. And $18 trillion is a lot of money, a value, and we could give it to people

00:58:18 ►

and it doesn’t cost $18 trillion. It costs very little to do this.

00:58:24 ►

Yeah, that’s absolutely fantastic.

00:58:26 ►

Property rights is one of my favorite use cases of blockchain, and there’s many.

00:58:31 ►

Perhaps you’d be interested or already know,

00:58:34 ►

Japan’s government has already committed to 100% of all title, property title,

00:58:40 ►

be moved to the blockchain within three years.

00:58:43 ►

Oh, that’s very good.

00:58:45 ►

I didn’t know that hernando’s been talking to the blockchain people and the guy who owns virgin is very big on this

00:58:51 ►

stuff and google’s all over it so there’s i think this is going to move so much quicker than we

00:58:55 ►

thought it might because the people who care about bitcoin care about blockchain and if blockchain

00:59:04 ►

becomes what everyone uses to title, then it’s

00:59:06 ►

okay to use for Bitcoin. So there’s a sort of

00:59:08 ►

bank shot of interest

00:59:11 ►

and resources

00:59:13 ►

to get this done.

00:59:14 ►

Yeah, I’m interested in the non-Google

00:59:16 ►

and non-corporate interest in

00:59:18 ►

developing blockchain through the Ethereum

00:59:20 ►

Foundation, but…

00:59:22 ►

Once you get this up

00:59:24 ►

there,

00:59:25 ►

different people can make it happen.

00:59:28 ►

Exactly. Thanks very much.

00:59:29 ►

I’m sure there’s lots, but…

00:59:32 ►

Hi. Thank you very much.

00:59:34 ►

Climate change.

00:59:35 ►

Would you agree that anthropogenic climate change

00:59:39 ►

is already happening,

00:59:40 ►

that we’re seeing devastating effects of it around the world,

00:59:43 ►

and that a greater than 2 degrees Celsius rise in the next century would be further devastating? And

00:59:49 ►

if so, what’s the proper role of government in dealing with it?

00:59:52 ►

That’s an interesting question. My challenge on this has always been, remember

00:59:58 ►

the line from the Russians are coming, emergency, emergency, everybody to get from the street.

01:00:06 ►

Whenever some group comes in and says, we have an emergency here, drop your guard. It’s an emergency.

01:00:13 ►

Do this. That’s how the big spending bills get passed in Washington, D.C. There was a flood in

01:00:19 ►

Houston. We now have to spend a billion dollars for the metro in D.C., you know, because they

01:00:23 ►

stick it on the bill. Don’t look. Do it quick. I’m very, very cautious when people say,

01:00:29 ►

stop looking. For a scientist to say this is set up science, we’re not debating it,

01:00:35 ►

when out of the British publications, we know because of the email leaks, that there was

01:00:40 ►

a campaign to not let anybody publish in order to be able to say it’s never been published. I think we need a very, very healthy debate.

01:00:48 ►

I think the climate models that people have asserted need to be transparent and open.

01:00:54 ►

They’re not. And we haven’t, and what they said was going

01:00:58 ►

to happen is not what happened. So it may be warming, it may be a problem,

01:01:02 ►

but the guys with the models who told us they knew for sure what was happening the last 18 years don’t match that at all.

01:01:12 ►

So their model is wrong.

01:01:13 ►

And they need to back up and explain why they got it wrong and why they think something else.

01:01:19 ►

But I’m not listening to a model.

01:01:21 ►

Remember the hockey stick model?

01:01:26 ►

The guys who said hockey stick is going to be warm, warm, warm, and all of a sudden it’s going to shoot up.

01:01:30 ►

So you have to do everything we say.

01:01:32 ►

That hockey stick model, if you put in random numbers, you got the hockey stick.

01:01:37 ►

Never mind the data they put in.

01:01:39 ►

When they finally had to give up their model and people looked at it, it was a dishonest model.

01:01:42 ►

finally had to give up their model and people looked at it, it was a dishonest

01:01:44 ►

model. And we need to back

01:01:46 ►

up and get the guys who said

01:01:48 ►

that to either excuse themselves from the debate,

01:01:50 ►

apologize for having either

01:01:52 ►

lied or promoted people who

01:01:54 ►

did, and come up with some clean

01:01:56 ►

data and some open

01:01:57 ►

sourced models

01:02:00 ►

that people are looking at.

01:02:02 ►

I would be, I had this,

01:02:04 ►

Gore came and spoke to our Wednesday meeting.

01:02:06 ►

I’m not an expert on it,

01:02:07 ►

I just,

01:02:08 ►

warning flares go up

01:02:09 ►

when telling me something,

01:02:10 ►

you have to do this

01:02:11 ►

because of this.

01:02:13 ►

Well, are there other options?

01:02:14 ►

And I asked Gore this.

01:02:16 ►

Gore came to the Wednesday meeting

01:02:17 ►

because he thought

01:02:17 ►

if he talked to us slowly

01:02:18 ►

and loudly,

01:02:19 ►

we’d get it.

01:02:21 ►

At the same time,

01:02:22 ►

no, he’s a gentleman,

01:02:23 ►

a complete gentleman,

01:02:24 ►

nice guy.

01:02:25 ►

But he walked, he showed part of. But he showed us part of the movie

01:02:29 ►

that hadn’t yet come out

01:02:30 ►

with the glaciers calving and everything.

01:02:32 ►

Very cool.

01:02:34 ►

And so we had a regular meeting for an hour

01:02:39 ►

so he could see what it was he was dealing with.

01:02:41 ►

And then for an hour, he talked and we chatted about his stuff.

01:02:44 ►

And I asked Gorere i said it i remember at one point some scientist explained there was global cooling

01:02:51 ►

and then there was global and you had to do 10 things ride bicycles use less energy and then

01:02:57 ►

there was global warming the solution to which was ride bicycles and use less energy and then it was

01:03:03 ►

climate change and the answer was ride bicycles and use less energy so blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it was climate change, and the answer was ride bicycles and use less energy, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:06 ►

So it’s the same answer for three different things. If the angels came down, assuming they’re angels, and sat on your shoulder and said, it’s not warming, it’s not cooling, it’s not climate change.

01:03:22 ►

Are there any of those ten things we shouldn’t do anyway?

01:03:26 ►

And I hadn’t finished the sentence before I said, no, we should do them all.

01:03:30 ►

So sentence first, verdict after.

01:03:33 ►

Gore’s position is there are ten things you should do.

01:03:38 ►

And the argument about why is not the important part.

01:03:41 ►

There are ten things you should do because you should.

01:03:48 ►

People who have the solution and are open to fitting that solution.

01:03:51 ►

What problem you got? I got the solution. This is what the solution is. I live in D.C.

01:03:56 ►

Everybody says whenever there’s a crisis, their tired old subsidy bill becomes the solution to the old crisis. Oh, I can fix that. And they put a little hat on it or a dress on

01:04:02 ►

it or something and they say, oh, it’s different.

01:04:13 ►

So I would love to look at that issue more, but I really need to see that the models are open for everyone to see.

01:04:18 ►

I want an explanation of why they were peddling models that were clearly not working.

01:04:22 ►

And what happened to the last 20 years that didn’t fit the model, why?

01:04:25 ►

Is the model no good or you’ve got something else?

01:04:27 ►

And they’ve got to… And the other one is, shut up.

01:04:29 ►

We know and you don’t.

01:04:32 ►

It comes out of Animal House.

01:04:33 ►

You can’t talk like that if it’s important

01:04:36 ►

because the American people won’t listen.

01:04:38 ►

I don’t know if you said Pew,

01:04:40 ►

which I work with all the time on criminal justice reform,

01:04:42 ►

but they’re mostly Bolsheviks.

01:04:44 ►

I mean, it’s a left-of-center structure.

01:04:47 ►

Teasing. Bolsheviks. Dementiaviks.

01:04:50 ►

And they just did this.

01:04:52 ►

Pew, 28% of the American people think that there’s a consensus on climate science.

01:04:58 ►

And 38% think the scientists have a good idea of what they’re doing.

01:05:03 ►

38%.

01:05:03 ►

So the scientists are not doing as well

01:05:05 ►

as Trump.

01:05:07 ►

This surprised me completely. That’s not what I thought

01:05:10 ►

the public opinion would be.

01:05:12 ►

But Pew is not out there trying

01:05:14 ►

to make the scientists look bad.

01:05:15 ►

They’re very big on global warming and

01:05:17 ►

doing something about it.

01:05:19 ►

The polling showed

01:05:21 ►

that it’s not the consensus issue.

01:05:24 ►

We regulated the price.

01:05:26 ►

It used to be illegal in this country to drive stuff in a truck from, you know,

01:05:31 ►

L.A. to Boston without getting a stinking permit from the federal government.

01:05:37 ►

And to get the permit, you had to prove that somebody wanted you to.

01:05:40 ►

How about Fred here is willing to give me 200 bucks to take the tomatoes to Boston.

01:05:47 ►

No, no, no. We need to do a study to see if there’s a need for this. And all of the

01:05:52 ►

other people who are already shipping trucks vote

01:05:55 ►

no need. It took us

01:05:59 ►

50 years to get rid of that law, which

01:06:03 ►

was destructive, self-interested, corrupt, bad, destructive,

01:06:07 ►

and consumed 5% of GDP.

01:06:11 ►

We dropped the price of transporting goods in the United States

01:06:14 ►

when we deregulated airlines, which was…

01:06:17 ►

You want to see how smart some of these guys are?

01:06:19 ►

In 1978, I sat in a room with Ted Kennedy’s guys

01:06:23 ►

and Ralph Nader and his guys, and I was the taxpayer guy.

01:06:26 ►

I was like 21 and right

01:06:27 ►

out of school. But these other

01:06:30 ►

guys were all really smart and on top of things.

01:06:32 ►

And they said, we’re going to deregulate

01:06:34 ►

airlines. Oh, Sears and Roebuck’s in the room.

01:06:36 ►

We’re going to deregulate airlines.

01:06:38 ►

I’m for deregulating airlines.

01:06:40 ►

Okay. Kennedy didn’t care about

01:06:42 ►

airlines. He hated the Teamsters

01:06:43 ►

because he thought they were mean to his brother.

01:06:47 ►

And the guy from Sears and Roebuck didn’t care about airlines.

01:06:52 ►

It was trucking that made getting goods to and from Sears and Roebuck very expensive.

01:06:58 ►

But the thought was if you deregulated airlines, then all the beautiful people who fly from LA to New York and New York to Washington

01:07:05 ►

will see tremendous drops in the cost of airlines because you no longer have this floor under

01:07:11 ►

the price.

01:07:12 ►

And then when you come to them and say, you know what we just did for airlines?

01:07:14 ►

Yeah, we’ll do it for trucks.

01:07:15 ►

They go, okay.

01:07:16 ►

And that’s exactly what happened.

01:07:18 ►

We did airlines in order to win trucks, in order to win rail lines, in order to win buses.

01:07:24 ►

And so part of it was step by step. in order to win trucks, in order to win rail lines, in order to win buses.

01:07:27 ►

So part of it was step by step.

01:07:30 ►

Each time you advance liberty, you can sort of turn to the guys who were almost with you on the last fight and say,

01:07:33 ►

remember I told you that maybe if we did it this way,

01:07:36 ►

it would reduce the cost of shipping in the United States

01:07:38 ►

and the lowest income person in America will benefit from Walmart

01:07:42 ►

having bottom dollar prices instead of

01:07:45 ►

high prices because of trucking and transportation. I don’t see that. Well, now you do. So now I’ve

01:07:51 ►

got another project. Maybe you want to help on that one. I think success breeds success because

01:07:56 ►

people see it and they’re willing to learn from things in front of them.

01:08:01 ►

The question is on energy deregulation. Maybe 20 years ago, there was an effort state

01:08:05 ►

by state to do some deregulation. And there were some thoughts about it at the national

01:08:10 ►

level. There was one particular federal law that everybody agreed was particularly egregious

01:08:16 ►

and stupid and raised the cost of energy. That was always held over here. And they refused

01:08:22 ►

to pass it. Why? Because other people had other ideas that were

01:08:27 ►

either pernicious and corrupt or not as popular, okay? And they wanted to attach it to the thing

01:08:33 ►

everybody agreed on. So instead of passing the thing everybody agreed on, they said, no, hold

01:08:38 ►

that as a hostage, and we’ll attach some of our other things we want and then tell everybody, eat the pepperoni and ignore the shards of glass.

01:08:47 ►

So on that one, they never got around to it,

01:08:52 ►

so we never passed the one everybody agrees is destructive and stupid.

01:08:55 ►

We never made the piece of progress that you could have made.

01:09:00 ►

I only dimly remember that, but there was a back and forth.

01:09:03 ►

Some of these things, there are a number of different problems.

01:09:06 ►

And if you get rid of one regulation without getting rid of three,

01:09:12 ►

you could end up where they can raise prices in one area, but competitors aren’t allowed in yet.

01:09:17 ►

And the trick is you want open access to competitors.

01:09:21 ►

I’m less interested in what you charge today than knowing that anybody

01:09:25 ►

who wants to could walk onto the field and compete with you. Then, whether you’re the

01:09:30 ►

only guy selling or one of a hundred, you’re limited by the fact that people could join

01:09:35 ►

in whether they do or not. So it’s the control of entrance rather than the other regulations

01:09:42 ►

that really… So if you control entrance and then you deregulate prices,

01:09:47 ►

you’ve just made the one standing guy very rich.

01:09:51 ►

But when Reagan deregulated energy in 81,

01:09:56 ►

people thought the price would go up.

01:09:58 ►

But what happened is people went out and revisited old wells,

01:10:03 ►

and more oil came in, and the prices went down through the 80s, not up, down.

01:10:10 ►

Because entry wasn’t barred.

01:10:12 ►

But theoretically, he eliminated the price cap.

01:10:15 ►

They could charge a million dollars a barrel if they wanted to, except that other people were coming in and not allowing them to.

01:10:21 ►

Entry, entry, entry.

01:10:22 ►

Can you have entry?

01:10:24 ►

That’s why Uber is so important.

01:10:26 ►

The taxi cabs controlled entry to becoming a taxi cab.

01:10:31 ►

And that’s what keeps prices up and quality down

01:10:34 ►

and means you can’t get a cab to Queens.

01:10:39 ►

You’ve mentioned the titling in third world countries

01:10:43 ►

as something that could happen relatively soon and

01:10:45 ►

something that you’re excited and hopeful about would you mind and please share other things that

01:10:50 ►

you’re excited and hopeful about over the next i don’t know 5 10 20 years i think you’ll see a

01:10:56 ►

doubling the number of people who homeschool uh right now it’s uh two million American students. I think that’ll double. I think at some point when parents either change state law to allow it

01:11:10 ►

or ignore state law to do it,

01:11:13 ►

the parent who’s not happy with the local, public, or private schools

01:11:18 ►

but needs two incomes and a family,

01:11:20 ►

or maybe there’s only one single parent with kids can offer to pay the neighbor who

01:11:27 ►

competently has been homeschooling three kids could you take two more and then all of a sudden

01:11:33 ►

you’ve got not a handful of schools that people can choose from but across the country tens of

01:11:39 ►

thousands so there’d be a proliferation of entry into education.

01:11:47 ►

And just as homeschooling was completely illegal, I mean, there were almost a million people homeschooling illegally when we finally started legalizing it,

01:11:57 ►

that you would then legalize homeschooling plus.

01:12:03 ►

than legalize homeschooling plus.

01:12:10 ►

And that would be a tremendous increase in the opportunity for people who don’t have an opportunity for a school that they think works for their kids.

01:12:18 ►

I do think you’ll see that with the present,

01:12:23 ►

there’s presently a war, a good war, a political war, against occupational licensing.

01:12:29 ►

One of the places that comes from is that when you decide to license dentists or interior decorators,

01:12:36 ►

that’s not a joke, they do it, or hair braiders or cosmetologists or any of these things,

01:12:42 ►

the first rule that they put in is no felons.

01:12:47 ►

I remember the British comedy show, Monty Python, and the guy has the rule on his club,

01:12:58 ►

and the rule is no puftas and three other things, and then no puftas, and then three

01:13:02 ►

other things, and then no puftas.

01:13:03 ►

Okay, no felons, no felons, no felons.

01:13:01 ►

and three other things and then no puftas and then three other things and then no puftas.

01:13:03 ►

No felons, no felons, no felons.

01:13:06 ►

They keep, because they go, well, you know,

01:13:09 ►

sounds reasonable.

01:13:11 ►

Although, what would you have them do

01:13:13 ►

as opposed to being a herb-raider or a barber?

01:13:18 ►

So there are hundreds of jobs that are licensed.

01:13:21 ►

Back in the 1950s, 5% of jobs required a permit or a license. Today,

01:13:25 ►

it’s 30% of jobs.

01:13:28 ►

This is ridiculous.

01:13:29 ►

This is protectionism. This is a medieval

01:13:32 ►

guild.

01:13:34 ►

And this is particularly bad

01:13:35 ►

for minorities whose dad

01:13:37 ►

didn’t do that job, which is

01:13:39 ►

how some people get into certain lines of business.

01:13:43 ►

And

01:13:43 ►

it’s particularly devastating to the ex-felon community.

01:13:50 ►

So in the name of criminal justice reform and restorative justice

01:13:55 ►

and all the Christians who get really excited about this stuff,

01:13:58 ►

they want to get rid of those licensing laws

01:14:01 ►

and, for starters, drop the no felons part but also rethink it in arizona

01:14:06 ►

they passed a very good law and that is why do we have all these licenses and then the people who

01:14:11 ►

benefit and get rich from protectionist licenses say health and safety so they wrote a law in

01:14:17 ►

arizona health and safety restrictions by the various boards that oversee occupational licensing are useful.

01:14:26 ►

Anything that isn’t specifically

01:14:28 ►

health and safety can be

01:14:30 ►

challenged in the courts by any

01:14:33 ►

citizen in the state and if it isn’t

01:14:34 ►

health and

01:14:37 ►

safety, it’s gone.

01:14:40 ►

And they got

01:14:41 ►

that law because there was a woman who’d lost

01:14:42 ►

her job and started her own business

01:14:45 ►

where she said there are people who need an in-home nurse,

01:14:49 ►

and then there are registered nurses who have free time or not a job.

01:14:54 ►

And so internet and phone calls, she put nurses together with people who needed jobs.

01:14:59 ►

And the registered nurses lobby said, you’re a criminal.

01:15:03 ►

You can’t do that.

01:15:06 ►

Well, why? Because it says right here in the occupational licensing for nurses to, if you’re going to be someone who

01:15:11 ►

directs nurses, you have to be a registered nurse. It says, I answer the phone. You know,

01:15:17 ►

the nurses do the nursing. That’s not what it says here under the rules. And two, you have to

01:15:23 ►

have a building. It says right here, have to have a building two, you have to have a building. It says right

01:15:25 ►

here, have to have a building. And you don’t have a building. And she said, but that has

01:15:32 ►

nothing to do with health and safety. And one of the judges said, you do guys know that

01:15:37 ►

if the law said health and safety, this would be, they decided against the bad guys. They

01:15:41 ►

said, no, this is ridiculous. That’s a stupid rule. It’s out.

01:15:51 ►

They said, but if the rule said health and safety, which you say it’s all about health and safety,

01:15:53 ►

but the law doesn’t say health and safety. If the law said health and safety, I could determine this court decision in ten minutes, five minutes.

01:16:01 ►

Not health and safety.

01:16:01 ►

Go away.

01:16:02 ►

Gone.

01:16:02 ►

Struck.

01:16:03 ►

That law is gone.

01:16:04 ►

That regulation is gone.

01:16:05 ►

And now in Arizona, they’re going to go through and strip out the stuff that’s protectionist,

01:16:10 ►

leaving in health and safety.

01:16:13 ►

And it’s got to be health and safety in the most competent way.

01:16:16 ►

You can’t argue if you did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it might do health

01:16:20 ►

and, you know, there’s an easier way to do health and safety.

01:16:22 ►

You’ve got to do that, not the complicated protectionist way uh tennessee did that but all you do is when you bring it to the

01:16:30 ►

attention of the judge the judge tells the legislature or the committee that looks at it

01:16:35 ►

like they didn’t know already so it’s it’s a weaker version of the law i much rather like

01:16:40 ►

an individual citizen who wants to get a job like that, says you’re keeping me out, and the rules say only health and safety.

01:16:47 ►

Do I really need 3,000 hours of cosmologists?

01:16:56 ►

The guys who do hair and face and stuff?

01:16:59 ►

Like lady barbers.

01:17:01 ►

Cosmetologists, right?

01:17:03 ►

1,000 hours?

01:17:04 ►

I mean, the ridiculous number of hours that you have to do this stuff in order to get a job like that.

01:17:11 ►

Well, that’s not reasonable. That doesn’t have anything to do with health and safety.

01:17:16 ►

It just means you have to be an indentured servant for a couple of years.

01:17:20 ►

That’s why they do it.

01:17:22 ►

Last thought, question?

01:17:23 ►

Yes. Isn’t it finally time every four years for the presidential election?

01:17:28 ►

It should be a national holiday to where no one has to work and everyone has more time to vote?

01:17:34 ►

The question was should you have a national holiday on election day.

01:17:39 ►

That’s a good question.

01:17:41 ►

I know a lot of workers got that passed in Michigan, and all their members go hunting.

01:17:47 ►

So not all, but they thought this would – they’ll all be home, and we’ll know where to get them, and we’ll drive them to the polls, and we’ll win.

01:17:57 ►

It’s not a bad thought, but they’ve sort of tried it, and the one thing on the assumption would increase participation.

01:18:04 ►

They’ve sort of tried it in the one thing on the assumption it would increase participation.

01:18:10 ►

People told it’s election day may decide to go to work early, late, or vote early.

01:18:12 ►

Sometimes you can vote days ahead.

01:18:20 ►

When you tell them it’s a holiday, at least in my family, the wife decides we are all doing something on that day. And it’s not necessarily at the voting booth.

01:18:23 ►

So I think to encourage

01:18:26 ►

more voting is a good idea. That

01:18:27 ►

one I don’t know if it gives you what you

01:18:29 ►

were hoping for. It may give you the opposite of what

01:18:32 ►

you’re hoping for.

01:18:34 ►

Anyone who likes their kids and

01:18:36 ►

has a hobby

01:18:37 ►

is not voting. So if you take them out of the

01:18:39 ►

who does that benefit? Which party? I don’t know.

01:18:41 ►

It’s a good question. But we might be surprised

01:18:44 ►

who’s not showing up for polls but it’s

01:18:46 ►

you’d rather have people vote

01:18:48 ►

than not so

01:18:49 ►

yeah, sentences

01:18:52 ►

that include the word mandatory

01:18:53 ►

always make me

01:18:56 ►

concerned about what else is going to be mandatory

01:18:58 ►

I wouldn’t force people to vote

01:19:00 ►

I’d make it so

01:19:02 ►

it’s not difficult

01:19:03 ►

not difficult in a difficult in an unusual way.

01:19:08 ►

But I would hesitate to make it mandatory.

01:19:12 ►

Australia, 70% of Australian wages are set

01:19:16 ►

by the government and by committees. It is a wage and price control society.

01:19:21 ►

I thought it was the Wild West or something

01:19:24 ►

out there. It’s like Britain in the 1950s after the war

01:19:27 ►

and they’ve still got price controls on everything

01:19:29 ►

it makes for a very

01:19:31 ►

awkward economy luckily they have lots of

01:19:33 ►

coal and minerals

01:19:35 ►

but other than that

01:19:37 ►

plus the whole continent is empty

01:19:39 ►

if you ever looked at where people live

01:19:41 ►

I would not be a fan of mandatory.

01:19:45 ►

I understand the argument.

01:19:46 ►

I just, mandatory stuff.

01:19:49 ►

See, I always thought advocates of that,

01:19:51 ►

I’ve got a good idea, okay?

01:19:53 ►

We’re going to make everybody do this.

01:19:55 ►

If it was a good idea,

01:19:58 ►

you wouldn’t have to make them do it, right?

01:20:00 ►

The guys at New Coke don’t go,

01:20:02 ►

we’ve got a great new product.

01:20:03 ►

We’re going to make everybody buy New Coke. They say, we’re going to make a product so good that many people will want

01:20:11 ►

it. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. But I would really rather do something

01:20:16 ►

to make it exciting and make people want it rather than make them do it. People, I don’t know about

01:20:22 ►

you, but I went to public school and every time they made you

01:20:26 ►

do something, it ruined whatever that

01:20:28 ►

was for the rest of my life.

01:20:30 ►

You have to do this.

01:20:31 ►

Well, as soon as I’m out of this joint, I’m never

01:20:34 ►

doing that again.

01:20:36 ►

So, not everybody

01:20:37 ►

reacts that way.

01:20:40 ►

But they’re called inmates.

01:20:42 ►

So, or

01:20:43 ►

East Germans.

01:20:48 ►

So I’d prefer not to get into the mandatory stuff.

01:20:50 ►

Second question, Todd?

01:20:53 ►

A question on online voting.

01:20:55 ►

The Russians are very interested in this,

01:20:56 ►

how they’re doing online voting.

01:21:00 ►

I tease, but I really worry about security on something like that.

01:21:02 ►

There may be a time when everybody’s comfortable

01:21:04 ►

that it is secure,

01:21:07 ►

but until it is both secure

01:21:10 ►

and people believe it’s secure,

01:21:13 ►

you’d hate to have elections

01:21:14 ►

that were completely honest and correct,

01:21:17 ►

but where a large percentage of the population

01:21:19 ►

was convinced it wasn’t.

01:21:20 ►

That would lead to all sorts of problems.

01:21:24 ►

So if everybody got… I mean, we now do signatures.

01:21:27 ►

We do contracts online.

01:21:29 ►

We do signatures and PayPal, and nobody’s bothered by that.

01:21:32 ►

We may come to that point on voting if there are enough protections,

01:21:38 ►

but I don’t know that we’re there,

01:21:40 ►

and it would make me nervous if people felt that one party or one group or they were making us vote online

01:21:48 ►

and then they win the next election does not prove my point.

01:21:53 ►

I think they’re dangerous there.

01:21:55 ►

At that note, we’re a few minutes over, and so we’re going to have to cut it off now.

01:21:59 ►

But thank you so much for coming and speaking with us.

01:22:01 ►

Thank you very much, guys.

01:22:02 ►

Take care.

01:22:01 ►

for coming and speaking with us.

01:22:02 ►

Thank you very much, guys.

01:22:03 ►

Take care.

01:22:09 ►

Next year, I hope to bring my two daughters,

01:22:10 ►

eight and nine.

01:22:12 ►

So I need you to email my wife and explain how important this is.

01:22:17 ►

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon,

01:22:20 ►

where people are changing their lives

01:22:22 ►

one thought at a time.

01:22:25 ►

Before I make any other comment,

01:22:27 ►

I’d like to mention the name of Mohamed Bouazizi.

01:22:31 ►

Mr. Bouazizi was the Tunisian street vendor

01:22:34 ►

whose fiery suicide turned out to be the catalyst

01:22:38 ►

that set off the Arab Spring in 2011.

01:22:41 ►

I mention this because all too often when people talk about him, they, well, they never

01:22:46 ►

mention his name. And I find that kind of sad. After all, he was the inspiration for millions

01:22:53 ►

of people, and we should at least all remember that he was a real person with a real name,

01:22:59 ►

Mohamed Bouazizi. Hopefully, future history books will see that his name is mentioned and that he’s not just

01:23:06 ►

remembered as some Tunisian street vendor. Now, I don’t know about you, but even though I disagree

01:23:12 ►

with Grover Norquist on many of his positions, he does seem like a nice man, one with whom I’m sure

01:23:19 ►

that I could have an interesting conversation with. In some ways, I was much like him at his age,

01:23:26 ►

conversation with. In some ways, I was much like him at his age. But then I found MDMA,

01:23:34 ►

and my life changed in a wonderful direction. My guess is that if I could have an MDMA experience with Grover, then the next day he’d be more one of us in many ways than he already is.

01:23:40 ►

Why, I can even imagine doing acid with him one day don’t laugh even stranger things have already happened

01:23:48 ►

just look at the current occupant of the White House if you don’t agree with that

01:23:52 ►

now I was interested to hear Grover ask a question

01:23:55 ►

how do you have a society with the greatest amount of voluntary exchange

01:24:01 ►

voluntary agreement voluntary structure

01:24:04 ►

and the least amount of coercive law?

01:24:08 ►

Well, if you could easily answer that question,

01:24:10 ►

you’d see the anarchists and the communists and everyone in between

01:24:14 ►

coming together and singing Kumbaya.

01:24:17 ►

But, as cynical as I sometimes may be,

01:24:21 ►

I still believe that we shouldn’t give up trying to find a way to do just that,

01:24:26 ►

live peacefully together on this little planet with as little government interference as possible.

01:24:32 ►

The question is, what do we do so as to move in that direction?

01:24:38 ►

Recently, I received an email from a man who has been with us here in the salon since the very

01:24:43 ►

beginning. In fact, I mentioned him by name in the talk that I played in podcast number one.

01:24:48 ►

He is Joshua Wickram, and he has traveled and worked all over the world since I first met him.

01:24:54 ►

But I’m afraid that in my podcast number 547, I didn’t make myself clear enough,

01:25:00 ►

because, well, it kind of rubbed Josh in the wrong way.

01:25:03 ►

What he objected to was his understanding,

01:25:06 ►

a misunderstanding in my opinion,

01:25:09 ►

but his understanding that I called for inaction.

01:25:13 ►

I say this is a misunderstanding

01:25:15 ►

because I didn’t intend to call for no action.

01:25:19 ►

Rather, it was a call for a different kind of action

01:25:22 ►

other than continuing to participate in the political process

01:25:26 ►

as it’s now set up. My reason being that it seems to me to be set up to completely ignore the

01:25:33 ►

majority opinion of people in this country. For example, the majority of people here seem to think

01:25:39 ►

that we should be doing something about climate change, Yet this is now the only country that does not subscribe to the Paris Peace Accords.

01:25:47 ►

A majority of citizens think that cannabis should legal.

01:25:51 ►

Yet it’s still listed on Schedule 1 along with heroin and is a felony to use or possess.

01:25:57 ►

A majority of citizens think that internet neutrality is important.

01:26:01 ►

Yet an unelected former employee of Verizon

01:26:05 ►

has determined that it’s going to go away.

01:26:08 ►

A large majority of Americans are against this new tax bill

01:26:11 ►

because of what it’ll do to the poor, the middle class,

01:26:14 ►

people with student loans, and old people with medical problems.

01:26:18 ►

Not to mention the fact that it’s going to increase

01:26:20 ►

the national debt by a trillion dollars.

01:26:22 ►

Most people are against that.

01:26:24 ►

Yet, it’s about to

01:26:25 ►

become law. Now, I do agree with Josh that we should make our voices heard and engage with

01:26:32 ►

those whose opinions differ from us. In fact, that’s my reason for playing Grover Norquist’s

01:26:37 ►

talk today. I totally agree with that. But where Josh picked up on thinking that I was promoting no action, what I tried to get across is that I no longer think that sending $20 to an environmental organization or joining a political party or any of the other so-called normal political activities, like liking something on Facebook, are going to make any kind of a dent in the problems we have today.

01:27:06 ►

to make any kind of a dent in the problems we have today. My point in that podcast was that the United States of America is a failed state, and that working to fix one or another facets of this

01:27:11 ►

incredibly large and complex political structure is, well, it’s fine as long as you realize that

01:27:17 ►

that’s only a rearguard action. You aren’t going to change the course of this ship of state in your

01:27:23 ►

kayak. But far from suggesting that you batten down the hatches and isolate yourself,

01:27:29 ►

as Josh took me to mean, I’m suggesting just the opposite.

01:27:33 ►

However, instead of going to the next meeting of your local political party,

01:27:37 ►

I suggest that you go to a festival, meet some new people, join a theme camp,

01:27:41 ►

work in a marijuana dispensary, or any of a number of activities like

01:27:46 ►

that. It seems to me that any of those activities will help us all move toward a more just society

01:27:52 ►

than, well, signing petitions or writing letters to politicians who will never read them.

01:27:57 ►

Sure, it’s important to go to rallies. I marched against both Gulf Wars and I demonstrated during

01:28:03 ►

the Occupy Wall Street movement. But I did those things so that I could be around people who thought much like I do.

01:28:10 ►

Never for a moment did I think that our marches and demonstrations would change anything in the world of politics.

01:28:16 ►

I did those things to charge my own battery so that I could get back to writing books and essays and podcasts to pass my ideas around.

01:28:26 ►

You don’t have to agree with me, just keep the conversation going. And that is something that you can do at your next

01:28:32 ►

family meal, which to me is the best place for some real action when it comes to social change.

01:28:39 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space. Be well, my friends.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

556 - Coalitions for Liberty

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Program Notes

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