274 - Psychedelic Safety plus Borges and McKenna

Program Notes

Guest speakers: Ann Shulgin and Dr. William Rowlandson

“If you are going to experiment with a psychedelic of any kind, make sure you are depranil-free for at least five days, probably seven would be safer.”
-Ann Shulgin

“You don’t really need MDMA or a psychedelic to do [deep personal therapy]. … I think that until at least some of these materials become legal, don’t dismiss the possibilities of hypnotherapy doing exactly what you need and want.”
-Ann Shulgin

“As far as I’m concerned, there is no substitute for MDMA, because it is the insight drug. And it does this magical combination of allowing you to see inside without fear and hostility toward yourself. It has a beautiful, beautiful effect, and no other drug that we know of so far manages to do that.”
-Ann Shulgin

“[Our] paradox is the ceaseless, constant drive to understand something that is inherently un-understandable. Now, of course, the paradox lies in the fact that we understand it is not to be understood, and yet we understand that we continue to try to understand. It’s a beautiful paradox.”
- Dr. William Rowlandson

2CT-7 Survey by Casey Hardison

Transcript

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Greetings from cyberdelic space.

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This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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And you may be wondering where I’ve been these past three weeks, but, well, I wish there

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was some kind of an exciting tale to tell you, but the truth is that I’ve just been

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sort of lounging in the land of lethargy.

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In other words, I’ve just been goofing off, kind of pretending that I’m on a summer vacation

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at the beach and doing a lot of reading and not much else.

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As I’ve said before, I want these podcasts to be something that I do for fun

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and not because I feel like I have to do one each week.

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So now I’m refreshed and ready to have some more fun with you here in the salon once again.

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But while I’ve been goofing off, some of our fellow salonners have been

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kind of nudging me

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back to the world by either buying a copy of my pay-what-you-can novel, The Genesis Generation,

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or by making direct donations to the salon. And yes, I guess that my childhood years in Catholic

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school have still left a trace of guilt in me, and I’ve begun to feel guilty about not getting around to thanking what has turned out to be a lot of our fellow salonners who were worried that

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the podcasts were going away. But never fear, I’m planning on keeping these things going for

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at least through the end of 2013 or so. In fact, as a sign of good faith, I’m not going to thank

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all of the donors from the past three weeks right now. Instead, I’m going to put out another podcast tomorrow, sort of a double album podcast or

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something, and I’ll thank the rest of you then. So thanks for the support goes out to the following

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people who kind of gave me a boost to get back into podcasting mode. And these fine souls are Graham W., Chris T., Eric S., Sophia N., Stella Luna, Lee M., Dylan H., Dominic B., Mark M.,

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and to longtime listeners, Robert and Roby, or it could be Robin.

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And I’m not complaining about your handwriting, Robin.

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It’s still orders of magnitude better than mine

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so I hope I got that kind of right

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and also one more big thank you goes out to a fellow salonner from Canada

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who sent a note that really gave me a rush

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because he signed it with his first name and last initial

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which are Joe H

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and that was how my dad was known when he was still alive

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so hey Joe, thanks a

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lot for both the donation and for the feel-good moment your letter gave me when I saw Joe

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H. there. And now, as they say, let’s get on with the show. Today I’m going to play

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two talks that I’ve wanted to get out to you for a while, but just never seem to get around

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to them. The first talk I’m going to play right now is somewhat of an informal session

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and more of a question-and-answer session, I guess,

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that Ann Shulgin led just after one of Sasha’s talks

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at the 2001 Entheobotany Conference in Palenque, Mexico.

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As you’ll hear, the Palenque sessions were generally small, informal,

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and full of interesting information,

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much of which came from the audience.

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Unfortunately, very little of the audience comments were clear enough in the recording to include in this podcast,

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as the recording was done on the little cassette recorder that Matt Palamary had with him at the time.

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And, hey, thanks again for the recording, Mateo.

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at the time, and hey, thanks again for the recording, Mateo.

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So, I had to cut out some of the audience parts where I couldn’t amplify them satisfactorily,

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and if you happen to be one of the people whose words of wisdom didn’t make it into this program, and you were at that workshop, well, you’re in somewhat good company, as

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I’ve even edited my own kind of long-winded contribution out of this talk as well.

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But in the case of my comments, you can trust me,

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you aren’t really missing anything of importance.

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And so now let’s rewind our clocks a little more than 10 years

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and go back and join Ann Shulgin and a few of us

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having a conversation about psychedelic safety, among other interesting topics.

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psychedelic safety, among other interesting topics.

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Is to share experiences, for you to share experiences that might be of help to other people.

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We’ll bring up questions about states of consciousness,

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whether drug-assisted or not.

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Questions that someone else might have answers to,

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and no subject, as far as I’m concerned, is too weird.

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I personally am interested in lucid dreaming

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and in the whole UFO phenomenon

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and just about everything else involving human consciousness. and in the whole UFO phenomenon,

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and just about everything else involving human consciousness.

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To be fair to everybody, it would be a nice idea if you can keep your story,

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whatever you want to call it, to about five minutes,

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because otherwise a few people will have all the time and some people will get no time.

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Discussion, however, is unlimited time.

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The first thing, oh yeah, if you feel a little hesitant to claim that a certain thing happened to you,

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then you can always use the favorite Internet expression of, you know, FOAF,

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a friend of a friend had this happen.

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It doesn’t matter.

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There is one thing I’d like to talk about briefly.

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It came up last night last year for the first time

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we had one person who experienced this unexpected a side effect and this year I

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think one or two others had the same thing happen last night.

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Last year, there was a compound that was floating around called 2CT7.

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And everybody had about approximately the same dosage level.

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Everybody seemed to want to, almost everybody seemed to want to try it.

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A very successful, except for one person who’s not here this year,

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who had a terribly hard time.

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He almost collapsed up at the ruins,

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and it took far longer for him to get back to baseline than it should have.

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It was extremely intense, very uncomfortable.

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And we couldn’t figure out what had happened until he happened.

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We asked him what drugs in general he took,

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and he was one of those people who had gotten into so-called smart drugs.

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It turned out that he was taking daily Deprinil.

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And we concluded that the Deprinil was the problem.

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Now, this year, Sasha and I didn’t know who was taking anything, if anything,

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until after they’d taken it. And at least two people came up to us and made clear that they were not only having an extremely intense experience, but it was too intense.

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It was too intense.

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It had been going on far longer than this particular drug,

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which shall remain unnamed because it’s not legal.

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This is a relatively short-acting psychedelic, and a couple of them had been going for 8, 10 hours,

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which is very unusual.

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I was not comfortable.

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It was obviously an overdose.

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One of them turned out to have been a user of Deprinil

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as part of his daily vitamin supplement stuff,

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and I very much suspect the second one was also doing that.

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So I would suggest,

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I told Sasha that this information should go out immediately onto Erwin and those sites.

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And he said it probably already is.

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But nobody’s been paying enough attention.

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I think the rule should probably be, for those of us who are not chemists,

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I don’t know whether we’re taking a phenethylamine or what,

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that if you are going to experiment with a psychedelic of any kind,

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make sure you are Depronil-free for at least five days.

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Probably seven would be safer.

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Now, has anybody here had this kind of experience?

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Now has anybody here had this kind of experience?

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Anyone here using Deprinil has discovered this particular effect?

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So actually the Deprinil are the same, just different names,

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and some people know one and the other.

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And then the programizers and others available in Mexico and an MAO inhibitor that people use to potentiate.

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The idea of potentiating

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it sounds all fine, except that

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I’ve yet to come across anyone that this

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happened to who was enjoying it.

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Well, you can mix those phenylethylates

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and certain things or else you get into trouble.

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You use it with tryptamines

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and you have to be careful how you do it.

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Alright,

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well, would it be sensible just to say that maybe it’s better

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if you’re taking Depronil to drop the Depronil for five days?

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Okay, yeah, that’s a good warning.

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And I’m sure it must be on these various sites,

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but if you find out that it isn’t,

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please take the responsibility of making

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sure that the sites concerned with psychedelic drugs do have that information, because it

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can be rather unpleasant.

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I don’t know if the audience includes people who are having trouble.

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Probably not.

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I assume that there are no effect after effects of any kind

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because last year the gentleman who was having all that trouble was perfectly fine the next day

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but it’s not the happiest experience um okay i’m going to bring up the first

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uh the first subject which has come up with several people

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and it comes up every year and I don’t have an answer

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myself but I think it might be a good idea for

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especially the therapists to perhaps

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try to get together before the end of the

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seminar and see what ideas they can come up with and work out.

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The problem is the oldest one, and that is how do you find not only a reliable source of

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a material that you want to do therapeutic work with as a client and second how do

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you find a therapist who will do this kind of work with you I don’t have an

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answer because this entire matter of therapy using psychedelics or MDMA is underground.

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And it’s a felony, as I’m sure you all know.

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But it still is going on.

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The only suggestion I have about how to discover these people

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is you have to go very slowly and very carefully,

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assuming that most people that you ask direct questions of

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are going to wonder if you are an undercover agent.

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And they should be asking themselves that.

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And they should be asking themselves that.

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I think that any therapist who might be open to doing this kind of work will probably want to work with you at least six months in ordinary therapy first.

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The only way I can think of to get around the danger to the therapist

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is that if you know a therapist who might be open to working with one of these materials

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you could ask her, let’s say, if I came for a session

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and I happen to have ingested a certain substance I like to work with

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just before I came in here,

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would it be all right with you if we made this a longer-than-usual session?

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Would you be open to the idea?

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Now, the tricky thing is that if you mention the particular drug, you’re putting the therapist

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on the spot.

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If you indicate that it is something that may not be entirely legal,

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but that it is a very good insight drug, for instance,

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the therapist, I think, and correct me if there are lawyers here who don’t agree,

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the therapist, if the actual drug name is not mentioned, might be able

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to legally say, yes, I can do that, without being put on the spot and endangering themselves

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legally. But that’s about as close as I can imagine getting to a sort of semi-answer about this.

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But it was suggested to me earlier that the therapists in this audience really should get together and exchange information.

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And having been at this particular conference,

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it doesn’t guarantee that you’re a safe person,

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but there would be a little less paranoia about it.

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So I think that’s as close as I can come.

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Does anyone here have any other suggestions about doing this?

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is there anyone with any legal training who would like to add

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precautions

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or cautionary

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things about going about this

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I think it’s like any

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underground it’s like trying to get

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to the underground fighting the Nazis

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in World War II I mean you don’t just say

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by the way is there anyone around here that

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belongs to the underground

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otherwise

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I don’t know if the Internet is much of a help here

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because there’s so much.

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Anyone can be on the Internet.

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Right, right, yeah, it’s not good, okay.

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There’s a lot of research in Switzerland,

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but that doesn’t help someone in Minnesota.

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You know, yeah, the research that’s starting up in Israel and in Europe is really great.

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It’s very reassuring.

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But there are therapists doing this kind of work underground in this country.

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I’m always asked after any lecture,

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where can I find one?

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And my honest answer is I don’t have the slightest idea.

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I have one thing to add.

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Yeah.

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We know this one therapist who is doing transpersonal work

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or getting ready to do it,

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and his chemical of choice is ketamine.

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And because he’s a medical doctor and he’s done certain work with ketamine,

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he can legally give people ketamine.

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And he claims that ketamine, you’ll have a very profound experience, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

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But that’s one possibility.

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Yeah, you happened to push one of my favorite buttons.

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Ketamine, I know that those who have used ketamine successfully,

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whether in therapy or self-exploration or whatever, swear by it.

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My own attitude, frankly, toward ketamine is extremely negative.

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I think it’s a very dangerous drug.

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I don’t think anything is dangerous once or twice.

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I may be wrong about that, too.

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But in general, I think you could long-lasting results of chronic ketamine usage,

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which are so horrifying.

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I could tell you stories about that, but I’ll just say, okay, ketamine for therapy,

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I would be extremely careful, and I do a lot of asking questions of the therapist.

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Does the therapist know the horror stories, which are true?

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How does the therapist feel about, you know,

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how many times did he expect to use the ketamine with you?

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And I would just be very cautious about it.

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I’ve used ketamine both personally and therapeutically,

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and used it for a two-year period personally,

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and I don’t know, maybe I have ill effects, maybe I don’t,

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none that I’ve been able to put my finger on.

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But I felt that it provided me significant benefits in my life.

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Then I had a difficult patient who had been getting treatment from me and a number of other sources over

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a period of years, a young woman, a serious disturbance, but I really could never put

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my finger on it. And since I had such a positive experience with ketamine, I consulted with

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a friend who was also deeply involved with ketamine and used it therapeutically with her a series of, because it lasts about 30-40 minutes, a series of ketamine experiences that did not have an adverse effect that I know of, I can say, but I’m not sure that we really accomplished anything more than what it occurred prior to the world.

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I’d just like to interject that that individual psychiatrist

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was more interested in helping people see God and things like that

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than just working out their personal problems.

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Okay, so in other words, it’s what you might call spiritual work

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and not so much personal psychological work.

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Okay.

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You know, that’s valid.

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Okay.

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I wanted to say I’ve spoken with several neurologists

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and very knowledgeable doctors about ketamine,

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and one of the long-term effects of ketamine

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is it inhibits something, I believe it’s called glutamine transporase,

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and glutamine is a recently discovered neurotransmitter that deals with human observation of time

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That’s why when you take ketamine you feel in a timeless space, it’s very interesting

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And at least for me, in my experience, I think that the horror stories mostly come in with people who use it intramuscularly

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Or inject it in any way because it’s direct throughout the brain.

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I mean, that’s just like with telly and all those things.

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Yeah, that…

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Yeah, oh, oh, okay.

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And I use the Lilly technique

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in the sense that you use small amounts

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over periods of time, timed intervals,

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and you bring yourself to a higher point

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than you would if you put, you know,

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say, a large amount, went up and then back down.

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And you use less, so there’s less long-term damage.

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But I don’t think anyone really knows about the damage.

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Yeah.

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But it is short-term from what I understand.

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So long as you don’t use it chronically, there is no long-term damage.

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Okay, because the people I’m thinking of were injecting every 15 minutes.

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And the worst is that neither of them ever could acknowledge the fact that they were hooked on it at all.

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They always expressed it as a preference.

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I’d rather be in this state.

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They were absolutely unable to recognize, which is not, you know,

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that rare, I suppose, with addictions, but they couldn’t see it. John Lilly and another,

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because I’ve seen John Lilly, at least he’s functioning. There’s a lady who,

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one of our dear friends, and she wrote one of the most successful books

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in the 60s.

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Very famous, and she’s a terrific lady.

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Very brilliant.

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She got a million dollar contract

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to write a second book.

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She got into ketamine.

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She had to eventually give back the million dollars

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because she wasn’t getting anywhere writing.

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She had a supplier who was, I think, either dentist or doctor.

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Her friends did an intervention,

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threatened the supplier with God knows what.

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That worked for a while.

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She got back.

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She went off it for quite some time.

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Got back into it.

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The last time I saw this brilliant and creative person

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was a couple of months ago, two or three months ago.

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And her hair was unwashed.

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A friend of mine who’s very, noticed that her nails were dirty.

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She couldn’t really properly complete a sentence.

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And she’s wrecked.

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And my feelings, I have to admit, I am really prejudiced against this drug

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because of the kind of damage it does that seems to last long after they maybe have given it up.

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They still have strange quirks in their thinking.

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They cannot think clearly.

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So I would just urge you to be very careful.

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Somebody else had a hand up on it. Yeah.

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I wanted to make a comment about the therapy question, about seeking someone out.

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Yeah.

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I don’t mean to dismantle the concept or question the concept of therapy in general,

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but I’d like to say my feeling on this is that

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isn’t this what our friends are for

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like you don’t need to do this out of out of a I shouldn’t say you don’t need to but I’m

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assessing the idea of not having a community and a family and a friendship network that’s

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strong enough to live with your friends and work through your personal

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or spiritual journey? Oh, easy. We have a terrific one in the Bay Area in Northern California.

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There is a terrific network, as you know. But I was talking to somebody who lives in Minnesota,

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But I was talking to somebody who lives in Minnesota.

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And there are a lot of people here who live in different states where I’m sure there are groups, but he hasn’t found the group yet.

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And if you’ve just moved to a new place, how do you find…

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Do you think that you can find the material to do,

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and you have friends?

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Maybe they don’t do it,

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but to have somebody that will talk with you,

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or whatever is the concept of therapy,

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or just do it yourself.

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Okay, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah.

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But still, there is a great deal of of good successful work done when you have a guide

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or you know a therapist or lay therapist guide who’s good and who can you know do shadow work

00:25:15 ►

with you or something like that shadow work is very hard to do by yourself um yeah okay if you

00:25:23 ►

live in a place you’ve lived in a place long enough to have formed a network of friends, I don’t think you’ve got the problem.

00:25:30 ►

But again, it would be good for the therapists in this group to get together and see if they can share information that might be of use.

00:25:42 ►

Yeah?

00:25:41 ►

share information that might be of use.

00:25:43 ►

Yeah.

00:25:46 ►

I think that the idea of therapy with small groups of friends

00:25:47 ►

that is in a more serious context, very

00:25:49 ►

small, like two to three people per

00:25:52 ►

group, I think that that’s the only way

00:25:54 ►

that the underground therapeutic movement can really

00:25:56 ►

move on because, like you’re saying,

00:25:57 ►

there’s no way to just reliably

00:25:59 ►

find a therapist to train.

00:26:01 ►

So, I mean, you need to take the people

00:26:04 ►

who are being the lay therapists

00:26:06 ►

and just let them understand the basic concepts of psychoanalysis, or at least this has been

00:26:11 ►

my experience, and then have them work with other people with, you know, kind of…

00:26:16 ►

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

00:26:19 ►

And just work through things, and I think you’ll find that each person has their own,

00:26:23 ►

you know, in the group group has their own therapeutic value.

00:26:26 ►

Yes, that’s true. Yes, far back.

00:26:30 ►

Like you are saying, that’s for the family, that is really important. But I think for

00:26:35 ►

a lot of people that talking about these issues for friends, it can be very demanding on friends.

00:26:41 ►

And because you’re with people you know, like a partner or family, it can sometimes be really hard to open up those feelings.

00:26:47 ►

It might involve those.

00:26:49 ►

Yeah.

00:26:50 ►

And in relation to being an untrained therapist, working, or like a friend working with a patient or a client or whatever you want to call it,

00:26:59 ►

without having the training, because having gone through like four years in university, where you learn loads of things, and having read all these brilliant works,

00:27:08 ►

and written about the interpretation of these visions,

00:27:13 ►

because, as you might always have known,

00:27:16 ►

that these visions are not like a little dwarf coming out and saying,

00:27:19 ►

oh this and this and this is your dark side, and this and this and this is what you’re going to do to sort it out.

00:27:24 ►

Yeah.

00:27:27 ►

It’s just like that.

00:27:30 ►

But we all know that these visions can be really tricky.

00:27:30 ►

Yeah.

00:27:36 ►

And you need to go in and look at them from an impact-sorcery aspect,

00:27:40 ►

like Joffrey, Jordan, you see them talking about, and especially Jung, they’re after-scipes.

00:27:41 ►

Right.

00:28:03 ►

And you might think of yourself like a huge spider. Or to your side, you can’t go and take that to do with anything. Right. Yeah, I agree very much.

00:28:06 ►

I think if…

00:28:11 ►

Yeah, I’d like to add another, my own favorite tool,

00:28:25 ►

which I think is fully equivalent to any drug that you ever come across,

00:28:32 ►

and that’s hypnosis.

00:28:35 ►

You find a good hypnotherapist,

00:28:38 ►

and they can help you unlock exactly the same doors.

00:28:43 ►

And in our network, we don’t think about that very much,

00:28:49 ►

but I worked with a hypnotherapist when I was doing therapy,

00:28:55 ►

and I have immense respect for what can be done.

00:29:00 ►

Again, you’ve got to choose the right person.

00:29:02 ►

You’ve got to be able to feel affinity for them and they for you.

00:29:09 ►

But that goes for any therapy.

00:29:11 ►

But I think you don’t really need MDMA or a psychedelic to do this sort of work.

00:29:20 ►

There are people who say, well, I can’t be hypnotized or I can’t work with it.

00:29:24 ►

I don’t know. Maybe that really is so.

00:29:27 ►

But I think that until these, at least some of these materials become legal,

00:29:37 ►

don’t dismiss the possibilities of hypnotherapy doing exactly what you need and want.

00:29:44 ►

the possibilities of hypnotherapy doing exactly what you need and want.

00:29:49 ►

What about the legal ones like 2327 and all those?

00:29:52 ►

Why aren’t those, can they be used or not?

00:29:59 ►

Yeah, I would think that, of course, there is, as far as I’m concerned,

00:30:03 ►

no substitute for MDMA because it is the insight drug and it does that magical combination of

00:30:06 ►

allowing you to see inside without you know fear and and uh hostility toward toward yourself I mean

00:30:14 ►

it’s beautiful beautiful effect and no other drug that we does anybody has anybody had experience with

00:30:29 ►

any other drug that is close what is menthol J Sasha help help

00:30:41 ►

help. Is it legal?

00:30:42 ►

It’s not illegal.

00:30:43 ►

Not illegal, okay.

00:30:44 ►

What was your experience?

00:30:45 ►

Did you use it for yourself or with patients?

00:30:46 ►

It was just a personal experience.

00:30:47 ►

It was a little shorter, perhaps a little smoother in here and I liked it.