Program Notes
Guest speakers: Terence McKenna, Ralph Abraham, and Rupert Sheldrake
(Minutes : Seconds into program)
03:15 Rupert Sheldrake:
“The present educational system mimics the initiation process and indeed is a kind of initiation process.”
07:18 Rupert:
“And indeed it is the scientific priesthood envisaged by Bacon in the scientific world, the academic model and the priestly role as the higher initiates in running and ordering society, the more-educated.”
08:40 Rupert:
“You can see this whole new frame of mind being introduced in the entire third world through UNESCO and through educational things. And the first step is literacy, you’ve got to have them reading and writing, because then you can get it across that what’s in books is actually more important than what you feel or experience.”
21:09 Terence McKenna:
“The education system of the future should have a tremendous focus on history.”
22:53 Terence:
“Part of reforming education has to be to teach people that history is a system of interlocking resonance’s in which they are embedded, and they are going to be called upon to make decisions which will affect the state of life on this planet millennia in the future.”
24:04 Terence:
“This hierarchy of academic cant that has been built up is in fact a sham, a thing of squeaking gears and creaking pulleys that is left over from another age.”
27:50 Ralph Abraham:
“I was pleased to discover that the higher educational system of Europe and America was not getting worse and worse, it was always this bad.”
32:22 Ralph:
“Where is spiritual value, where is moral and ethical value, where is the fabric of society, as it were, where is that taught? If not in the schools then embedded in soap operas, or where? Somehow the curriculum has to have spiritual, moral, and social values.”
41:06 Rupert:
“And then there would be some final test … and I think it could also involve, like the Eleusinian Mysteries, a psychedelic revelation.”
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space.
00:00:20 ►
This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.
00:00:24 ►
So, how are you today?
00:00:26 ►
All ready for another installment of the trilogue between Terrence McKenna, Ralph Abraham, and Rupert Sheldrake?
00:00:33 ►
As you probably know already, we’re getting down to the end of the first series of conversations,
00:00:38 ►
the three of them held at Esalen Institute in 1989 and 1990.
00:00:44 ►
And since we’re going to hear the first side of the ninth tape in the series of ten,
00:00:49 ►
my guess is that this particular talk was recorded in 1990,
00:00:53 ►
although the cassette tapes weren’t clearly labeled as to what year they were made,
00:00:57 ►
so we can’t really be sure.
00:01:00 ►
But I hope you don’t let the title of this tape throw you off.
00:01:04 ►
If you read the program notes, you know that they titled it Education in the New World Order.
00:01:10 ►
Apparently, when they held this conversation, the phrase New World Order didn’t have the negative connotation that it does today, at least for some people.
00:01:33 ►
But as I understand it from their conversation, they used the term only to project their thinking into a utopian future that didn’t include the existing world order, which I think we can all agree is in some need of improving.
00:01:38 ►
Anyway, I think you’re going to enjoy this particular talk.
00:01:44 ►
I know it gave me some new ideas about what’s been going on with our current educational system, at least here in the States, and I think they came up with some workable suggestions for making changes in it.
00:01:50 ►
At least their ideas in this talk seem a little more practical
00:01:53 ►
than some of the more far-out plans that they’ve come up with in the past.
00:01:58 ►
So let’s join our merry trialogers as they ponder what to do
00:02:02 ►
about the sad state of government-sponsored education.
00:02:09 ►
Education in the new world order.
00:02:17 ►
Everybody agrees there’s something wrong with the educational system that we have today.
00:02:21 ►
I mean, even mainstream official educationists are
00:02:25 ►
worried about it. There’s something about it which doesn’t seem to be working.
00:02:35 ►
And obviously in the New World Order there’ll be an educational system of
00:02:39 ►
some kind. Every society or civilization has one. So one has to think what kind do
00:02:44 ►
we actually want?
00:02:46 ►
And we know that the present kind needs replacing in some way.
00:02:50 ►
So what kind do we actually want?
00:02:52 ►
And if we take a walk through it, what would it look like,
00:02:56 ►
the educational system in the New World Order?
00:03:00 ►
Well, I think that the first thing about it would be that
00:03:04 ►
education would recognize that it is in fact a form of initiation, that its entire archetypal role is that of an initiation process.
00:03:13 ►
The education, in fact the present educational system mimics the initiatory process, indeed is a kind of initiatory process, where you go through the different exams like every initiatory you have a training you pass through a time of testing or trial and some fail
00:03:29 ►
others pass and the pass ones are the initiates and so at every level you have
00:03:33 ►
11 year old sort of 15 year high school graduations college exams Bachelor of
00:03:38 ►
Arts Master of Arts Doctor of Philosophy and these higher and higher degrees and
00:03:43 ►
qualifications each of which involves its test of initiation,
00:03:47 ►
each of which, once initiated into that hierarchy and the academic grade within the academic hierarchy,
00:03:54 ►
people have a kind of official certification of higher and higher levels of education,
00:03:59 ►
recognized throughout our whole modern society, which pays great respect to things like academic qualifications. You’ll get better jobs, better employment
00:04:10 ►
opportunities, more respect. That’s of course why everyone wants these degrees
00:04:13 ►
and why to the despair of educators throughout the world most college
00:04:17 ►
students passing through the universities seem to have so little real
00:04:20 ►
interest in the subjects they’re studying. They want to, in the third world, it’s very clear,
00:04:25 ►
they just want the degree because with a BA or an MA your entire social status has changed
00:04:30 ►
in India. And your marriage prospects, the size of diary you can command and so on,
00:04:36 ►
it’s a quantifiable sliding scale of status. Anyway, this is the present educational system we have, and the present educational
00:04:46 ►
system is based on an initiatory model. And in fact, I think it is an initiation into a model.
00:04:54 ►
It’s an initiation into what one could think of as the rationalist or humanist world view or
00:05:10 ►
humanist worldview or mindset, frame of mind, way of thinking. And so one of the things that it does all along is to mean that the mind or the intellect is the predominant godlike point of view from
00:05:15 ►
which everything is seen. So when you teach school children literature within this framework of this
00:05:23 ►
system that we’ve got now, this mechanistic humanist rationalist model you don’t just read them the great poems
00:05:28 ►
by sort of beating and drumming and bringing the magic of the poem and and
00:05:33 ►
going into the myth you say this poem was written in 1635 by so-and-so who was
00:05:38 ►
born in so-and-so and you then learn all these facts about the poets which you
00:05:42 ►
have dates of when they were born and died and that kind thing, which you have to be able to know for exams.
00:05:47 ►
And then certain stock ways of analysing Shakespeare’s plays, for example,
00:05:51 ►
for school exams, where such and such a character does this role.
00:05:54 ►
And here Shakespeare was borrowing from this tradition
00:05:57 ►
and putting this and taking the whole thing to pieces
00:06:00 ►
by this kind of detached analytical mind.
00:06:02 ►
The same in the fine arts.
00:06:04 ►
As soon as this mind gets onto the arts, you’ve got the same thing. This was painted by so-and-so
00:06:08 ►
in the school of so-and-so, bought by so-and-so in such-and-such a collection, and so on.
00:06:17 ►
So I think that all these ways of distancing the self and bringing the rational academic
00:06:25 ►
trained mind as being the supreme point of view is the initiation into which
00:06:30 ►
this educational system works. It makes that the supreme arbiter, a kind of human
00:06:34 ►
reason. And so it’s this kind of rationalistic humanism. So it is an
00:06:41 ►
initiation right now. The present educational system is an initiatory system.
00:06:48 ►
One has to recognize that, and each of its levels, like commencement, graduation day from high school
00:06:53 ►
and so on, are attended by impressive public ceremonies, which in the classic tradition of
00:06:58 ►
public initiation and recognition to a higher grade or status, like a medieval guild or craft,
00:07:04 ►
makes it one of the few realms in
00:07:05 ►
which that kind of world lives on, these hierarchical gradations, with robes and
00:07:12 ►
all the apparatus in the realm of science of a scientific priesthood, in fact. And indeed,
00:07:19 ►
it is the scientific priesthood envisaged by Bacon in the scientific world, the academic model and the priestly role of the higher initiates in running and ordering
00:07:31 ►
society, the more educated. So we do have that kind of system but in order to
00:07:39 ►
replace it we obviously have to have not only just tinkering with the present
00:07:44 ►
system which is
00:07:45 ►
entirely dedicated to that view of the world and when it extends its baleful influence over the
00:07:50 ►
third world countries as I’ve seen it do in Indian villages as soon as the school comes in and the
00:07:56 ►
secondary school these kids go through that they become alienated from tradition they want to wear
00:08:00 ►
pants instead of dhotis they want to work in cities instead of stay in the village they want to wear pants instead of dhoti’s. They want to work in cities instead of stay in the village. They want to have an office job sort of with account, you know, sitting behind a desk and being a kind of bureaucrat rather than getting their hands dirty.
00:08:13 ►
All these classical archetypes of kind of Indian bourgeois aspiration take over.
00:08:22 ►
And they’re alienated from the village culture
00:08:25 ►
in which they were educated
00:08:26 ►
most of them drop off and go to the cities
00:08:28 ►
and the villages
00:08:30 ►
they sort of distill off
00:08:32 ►
fortunately for village life
00:08:34 ►
but
00:08:38 ►
you can see this whole new frame of mind
00:08:42 ►
being introduced in the entire third world
00:08:44 ►
through UNESCO and through educational things the first step is
00:08:47 ►
literacy you’ve got to have them reading and writing because then you can get
00:08:50 ►
across that what’s in books is more important than what you actually feel or
00:08:54 ►
experience because books about the world of books huge libraries and stuff
00:08:59 ►
scientific journals is vastly larger than anything any one of us could ever
00:09:03 ►
read comprehend or experience.
00:09:05 ►
So there’s this overwhelming weight of fact which one can’t but be in awe of and respect.
00:09:10 ►
And as soon as the more one’s initiated into that world and the priesthood of the world of books and of the written word,
00:09:16 ►
then the more one’s mind is bound up in that whole realm and the more one’s beings assimilated to it.
00:09:24 ►
And the less the realm of ordinary experience counts for anything in fact it still
00:09:28 ►
counts but it counts behind the diaphragm that separates from the
00:09:32 ►
educated public persona from the private domestic or romantic solitude or hiking
00:09:38 ►
in the wilderness weekend persona or holiday and Bali persona these other
00:09:42 ►
wilder freer aspects of the
00:09:45 ►
personality are relegated to free time not in the educated part so the
00:09:52 ►
alternative educational model would still be based on initiations but it
00:09:57 ►
would be based on going with the grain of initiation which is throughout the
00:10:01 ►
world what most people want to be initiated into a lot of things and they realize that being initiated into them means taking on a new social role a new social
00:10:10 ►
pattern and usually these roles are in some sense sacralized you know guilds of craftsmen etc
00:10:16 ►
with their patron saints and um and indian castes each with their own traditions you know the potter
00:10:23 ►
cast the weaver cast and so on with traditions and skills which are passed on with them.
00:10:27 ►
And the children with them want to be initiated into being a potter or a weaver, if you’re in that.
00:10:32 ►
There’s a respect and accord given to the initiates, which the young aspire to.
00:10:37 ►
And you get exactly the same thing in our own society with driving.
00:10:40 ►
I mean, nobody, most adult people don’t want to be the kind of people who either can’t drive or haven’t qualified for a driving license.
00:10:48 ►
They have to go through a learning period and they have to pass the test.
00:10:51 ►
And once they’ve passed it, they join the club of qualified drivers.
00:10:55 ►
Most kids actually want to be initiated into that.
00:10:57 ►
There’s a real power, a kind of magnetic pull about being along.
00:11:02 ►
There’s a glamour to it, which they want.
00:11:10 ►
And a whole new freedom and a true initiation takes place. And these are very deep and people want to be initiated into swimming, into sex, into
00:11:14 ►
drugs of various kinds, into games, into skills and professions. These are basic
00:11:21 ►
desires for initiation. So the model of education would be
00:11:28 ►
this initiation-based education, of which the present educational system has many of the elements,
00:11:33 ►
but in a kind of parody version, because these tests only operate in the written mode. They only
00:11:38 ►
operate in the language mode. All examinations involve sitting at a desk with a pen and writing,
00:11:43 ►
all examinations involve sitting at a desk with a pen and writing that they entirely work through this written mode
00:11:46 ►
and they’re initiations into the written world as it were
00:11:50 ►
so there are other kinds of initiations
00:11:57 ►
and if you think about it
00:11:58 ►
a lot of the present educational system
00:12:02 ►
could be transformed by recogn recognizing its initiatory quality.
00:12:05 ►
Like medical students, to become doctors, have to dissect a complete human corpse.
00:12:10 ►
This is an absolute requirement.
00:12:13 ►
And every medical student, when they first come into the dissecting room,
00:12:17 ►
undergoes an instinctive, deep-down revulsion from this room full of partially dismembered corpses,
00:12:23 ►
something against which all societies have had taboos, you know, on the respect for the
00:12:27 ►
corpse and that sort of thing, the power of a corpse. And to overcome all these
00:12:32 ►
traditional taboos they have to adopt a highly detached and usually jocular
00:12:36 ►
attitude with dissecting rooms full of people playing hockey with, as they
00:12:41 ►
did in the Cambridge ones, with severed legs using testicles, the hockey balls,
00:12:44 ►
this kind of thing. Typical medical student hijinks in the Cambridge ones, with severed legs, using testicles, the hockey balls, this kind of thing.
00:12:46 ►
Typical medical student hijinks in the dissecting room, where this kind of jocularity is forced as a response.
00:12:53 ►
So instead of that, to become a doctor you have to dissect a dead human body.
00:12:58 ►
And to do that you have to have a meditation on death first.
00:13:01 ►
You maybe have to, like in a Tibetan meditation,
00:13:06 ►
spend a night in a graveyard and, you know, really confront what one’s doing,
00:13:13 ►
the initiatory quality of confronting death
00:13:17 ►
in some kind of way.
00:13:18 ►
This is a solemn moment.
00:13:23 ►
And in most other trades, professions, skills, etc., there would be
00:13:27 ►
this initiatory way of doing it, which exists to some extent in voluntary
00:13:33 ►
organizations and clubs and hobbyists of every kind, you know, who want to have their
00:13:37 ►
people pursue things because they’re really interested. There’d also be adolescent initiation rites somewhere in this along
00:13:49 ►
we mentioned that at Hollyhock Jill and I were talking about vision camps summer
00:13:55 ►
camps where kids go and where there’s a truly initiatory program now involving a
00:14:00 ►
vision quest for example at least 24 hours away alone in the wilderness these camps already
00:14:06 ►
exist in northern vancouver island in the summer mostly for indian youths and
00:14:13 ►
so the this initiatory quality introduced throughout the educational system and computer
00:14:22 ►
modeling for example would be a very important part of the initiatory thing into mathematics,
00:14:27 ►
which would be an initiation into the mathematical landscape,
00:14:30 ►
which is the hidden mystery of mathematics
00:14:32 ►
and to which most students of it never get an inkling.
00:14:35 ►
They don’t even know it’s there because mathematicians don’t talk about it.
00:14:38 ►
They pretend that it’s this rational system of numbers and symbols.
00:14:41 ►
But actually, the really good ones have these vivid visual imaginations,
00:14:46 ►
which is where it all happens, where the magic goes on.
00:14:49 ►
Well now, one of your great points is this can now be rendered visible through computer
00:14:54 ►
models, you can enter into it as you can through fractal programs and that kind of thing, and
00:14:58 ►
actually explore the mathematical landscape in the privacy of your home, a moderately priced disket
00:15:05 ►
available from aerial press. And so this obviously is part of it too. So and also
00:15:16 ►
within each branch of learning there would be through ceremony, you’d learn
00:15:21 ►
about how to mend cars, you’d learn from plumbers about the elements of plumbing you’d learn useful things in schools by and be
00:15:28 ►
initiated by members of recognized trades or professions like a plumber and
00:15:31 ►
teach you plumbing a real plumber who’s really part of the kind of plumbers
00:15:36 ►
Union you know the really initiated plumber world and so you’d see that
00:15:40 ►
you’d have an entry into these different worlds through these initiations, which could take place within the framework of ordinary schools.
00:15:49 ►
And through acknowledging the tradition, which is in each of these cases a way of life,
00:15:54 ►
a whole cultural tradition, not just a piece of book learning or things written on paper,
00:15:59 ►
you’d come into the larger group dynamics, the social psyche.
00:16:02 ►
The education would be integrated into the larger emotional and intuitive
00:16:07 ►
and social bonding aspects of one’s life.
00:16:16 ►
Anyway, one kind of educational system that has this initiatory quality to some extent
00:16:21 ►
is the workshop system, and this is the principal alternative educational system that has developed
00:16:27 ►
outside the orthodox one.
00:16:29 ►
And it’s obviously the best model for actually replacing the present one.
00:16:34 ►
A vast extension of the workshop system of education, because workshop type education involves people interacting as a group,
00:16:41 ►
and it’s impossible to forget the group dynamics. It’s not just a teacher in a classroom and a meant to be quiet.
00:16:47 ►
Although in fact what’s going on is group dynamics of often turbulent kind.
00:16:53 ►
The workshop makes the group dynamics explicit, and is the model of people who actually want to do,
00:17:00 ►
want to learn something together to make some new insight, to make some new step or experience or transition,
00:17:05 ►
at the end of which, Friday noon, they’ll have actually been through a kind of group initiatory experience,
00:17:14 ►
which has involved a group bonding, a new shared way of seeing the world, a new consensus reality emerging,
00:17:19 ►
a new insight into self-transformation, etc. Initiatory hopes, anyway.
00:17:22 ►
insight into self-transformation, etc.
00:17:23 ►
Initiatory hopes, anyway.
00:17:27 ►
The other thing is that,
00:17:30 ►
the other final point is that for the educational system to be transformed,
00:17:33 ►
each branch of it, each profession of it,
00:17:35 ►
that already exists as a kind of guild,
00:17:37 ►
like mathematicians have their own kind of guild,
00:17:40 ►
and biochemists, and, you know,
00:17:42 ►
these are guilds with their founding fathers,
00:17:44 ►
their own traditions, etc. they’re like guilds each one of them has to from within
00:17:51 ►
itself within the group have a new vision of what it could be like
00:17:56 ►
revisioning psychology you know like Hillman’s book there’s the revisioning
00:18:00 ►
model revisioning medicine what would happen if a group of met doctors got
00:18:04 ►
together led in a workshop type format somewhere like
00:18:07 ►
Esalen, and did things like shamanic chanting in a workshop
00:18:12 ►
format, and then also discussed what was their original vision in becoming a
00:18:15 ►
doctor. What was the going right back to contact the original inspiration for
00:18:20 ►
each of them and then tell it to other people. What did you see medicine could be?
00:18:26 ►
What’s your experience of it as you’ve actually come into it?
00:18:30 ►
You know, limitations and so on.
00:18:32 ►
And what could a new vision of medicine be?
00:18:34 ►
A new kind of healing profession?
00:18:38 ►
This kind of revisioning could occur within each of the…
00:18:41 ►
What could a real botany be within the botanical?
00:18:45 ►
A real botany would be a science really related to the spirits of the plant
00:18:49 ►
world as well, with an understanding of their forms, names, colors,
00:18:53 ►
embryologies and so on, but essentially knowing in the greatest detail that, and
00:18:57 ►
relating to the spirits of vegetative kingdom. So this would be what the new
00:19:04 ►
professions would be like and they
00:19:06 ►
could be transformed I think by a whole transformation of
00:19:10 ►
consciousness that could come about in a group format within members of the
00:19:13 ►
profession, a whole new vision of what it could be. So in summary I think that in
00:19:21 ►
the New World Order the educational model would be an education through initiation.
00:19:26 ►
The initiations will be things that people on the whole want to do and involve far more than just writing things down,
00:19:32 ►
but actually a real mental, physical and social competence to do whatever it is that needs to be done,
00:19:40 ►
which is what’s involved in real guild initiations, apprenticeships and so on.
00:19:45 ►
which is what involved in real guild initiations, apprenticeships and so on. And that the workshop mode is probably the best model for what the new educational models would be like.
00:19:58 ►
And the professional groups that already exist to transform these traditions from within
00:20:06 ►
which has to be done to maintain their organic
00:20:08 ►
integrity as a profession
00:20:10 ►
and hence the source of ancient traditions
00:20:13 ►
which can actually have a mythic power
00:20:14 ►
and therefore help to transform
00:20:16 ►
all this might happen in a new millennium
00:20:22 ►
and lead us into a new
00:20:24 ►
psychedelic world order.
00:20:29 ►
Well, it’s very interesting, I agree. I think you put your finger on it that this
00:20:34 ►
initiatory thing is the continuing thread from the archaic that could lead
00:20:40 ►
into the future and that that means there’s reason for hope.
00:20:48 ►
The only thing I would really add to that is that when I imagine the educational system
00:20:55 ►
of the future, I think that part of our problem and how we reached this historical impasse was through accepting a kind of historical amnesia
00:21:08 ►
and that the education of the future should have a tremendous focus on history. The educational
00:21:18 ►
system currently in place I take to have as its sort of paradigm the teaching of physics.
00:21:27 ►
In other words, the conveying of an extremely abstract, mathematically-based description
00:21:33 ►
of nature that ushers into high engineering competence.
00:21:40 ►
And I would imagine in an ideal educational milieu in the future that perhaps the science of archaeology in the last even ten years,
00:22:07 ►
so that in a sense a kind of telescope into the past
00:22:14 ►
is being erected by the world archaeological community.
00:22:19 ►
And teaching this is a way of re-anchoring ourselves from the post-industrial notion of
00:22:28 ►
history as a kind of trendless fluctuation or a class struggle or some
00:22:34 ►
of these other very dis-in-souled models of what the human journey through time
00:22:40 ►
is so I think we have fallen into a kind of historical amnesia. This has blunted
00:22:46 ►
the acuity of our political decision-making, and that part of reforming education has to be to
00:22:57 ►
teach people that history is a system of interlocking resonances in which they are embedded
00:23:05 ►
and they are going to be called upon to make decisions which will affect the state of
00:23:13 ►
life on this planet millennia in the future so without a complete knowledge of history that is seamless from the birth of the universe down to yesterday’s headline,
00:23:27 ►
we’re not in a position to act toward our best interests.
00:23:34 ►
And I take education broadly to be the inculcation of attitudes
00:23:39 ►
that cause us to act generally in the interest of all.
00:23:46 ►
That’s about it.
00:23:47 ►
I think your other very strong point is the power of the feudal guild model
00:23:53 ►
and that this goes hand in hand with the McLuhanist expectation
00:23:59 ►
of what he called an electronic feudalizing of society, that this hierarchy of academic cant
00:24:08 ►
that has been built up is in fact a sham thing of squeaking gears and creaking pulleys that
00:24:17 ►
is left over from another age, and that we should just understand that education is a kind of value-neutral medium,
00:24:29 ►
and that whether you learn the Tao of waste disposal or the Tao of 16th century Spanish literature,
00:24:39 ►
you are essentially tilling the same field,
00:24:47 ►
essentially tilling the same field and that people have lost the sense of the houndness of their professionalism and the educational system has been
00:24:54 ►
contaminated by concepts like of class struggle, class difference, this sort of thing. Ralph, what’s your take on that?
00:25:07 ►
Well, I like these visions, revisions, as far as they go. I think the initiation mode is a good one,
00:25:18 ►
in that it has a traditional track record, successful track record. It engages the motivation of children to try to proceed
00:25:28 ►
from the green belt to the brown belt and so on.
00:25:32 ►
And it also is, as you correctly pointed out,
00:25:36 ►
Rupert, is the system that we have in today’s educational factory.
00:25:42 ►
So I think that this is excellent as far as it goes and I like
00:25:46 ►
the workshop mode and I think I agree Terrence it would be valuable to infuse
00:25:51 ►
the curriculum of new dimensions of history archaeology and the revision of
00:25:57 ►
the past and the revision of the past must be re revised annually and this
00:26:02 ►
mode would make that possible because I presume in the workshop
00:26:05 ►
model you have in mind asking a different plumber every year, asking a different archaeologist
00:26:12 ►
that would not be a professor with tenure.
00:26:14 ►
Oh no, the ones that remain actually professional plumbers that would come in there.
00:26:19 ►
Yes, but still I think that this somehow doesn’t go far enough. I feel uneasy in that the maybe the main problems
00:26:28 ►
in the current system haven’t really been engaged yet. And the trouble is we don’t know
00:26:35 ►
exactly what they are. And, no, I think this view is kind of focusing on higher education.
00:26:43 ►
Maybe that’s good because lower education will always be on the way to higher education,
00:26:47 ►
and when higher education is transformed, it will somehow change the whole system.
00:26:52 ►
And myself, I took a shortcut in school and left in the ninth grade and never returned.
00:26:56 ►
And then I entered early in university, and I’m now starting my 40th year,
00:27:00 ►
so I can not really suggest a revision of the elementary school system.
00:27:07 ►
Well, the inculcation of feminism and feminine values are some kind of way of feminizing
00:27:14 ►
the whole system in those early grades. That’s probably the most important vacuum.
00:27:20 ►
Yes, well, this is like infusing the current system with a new spirit I think somehow won’t do it
00:27:25 ►
among the rash of books
00:27:27 ►
criticizing the higher
00:27:29 ►
educational system this year
00:27:31 ►
there’s one, Paige Smith’s
00:27:33 ►
The Death of the Spirit
00:27:35 ►
which
00:27:36 ►
he’s a historian, America’s
00:27:39 ►
premier historian
00:27:40 ►
and he spent half his book
00:27:43 ►
complaining about the current system and the other half discussing how it got that way and I was pleased to discover
00:27:51 ►
that the higher educational system of Europe and America is not getting worse
00:27:55 ►
and worse it was always this bad we can take fault even if we go to the first
00:28:01 ►
one which is when Ptolemy gave this huge endowment to the
00:28:05 ►
Alexandrian Museum. Here we had professors with lifetime tenure, and the
00:28:10 ►
responsibility was to give one lecture per week or to contribute a poem or
00:28:15 ►
amusement for public display.
00:28:19 ►
Sounds like a good job.
00:28:21 ►
That’s shit.
00:28:23 ►
So Patesmith takes issue first of of all, with the tenure system.
00:28:28 ►
Now, I like the tenure system.
00:28:29 ►
I would be out of my ear years ago if I didn’t have this very, very strong job security.
00:28:36 ►
But somehow it’s part of the problem, I think.
00:28:41 ►
And you have to ask, in your vision of the new educational system
00:28:47 ►
in the new world order, where the workshops are, who is organizing this? Where is the
00:28:53 ►
Department of Administration, the administration building, who’s deciding which workshops will
00:28:57 ►
be offered, which plumber will be, and so on. Will there be new emphasis on feminist
00:29:04 ►
revision of history? Will there be new emphasis on feminist revision of history? Will there
00:29:06 ►
be new results from archaeology or not?
00:29:08 ►
Somebody, after all, is deciding whether it’s
00:29:10 ►
the PTA or whatever.
00:29:12 ►
How many people are going to school?
00:29:14 ►
All? A few? Those who wish?
00:29:17 ►
Rewards will be
00:29:18 ►
offered, yes or no? And these things
00:29:20 ►
have to do with
00:29:21 ►
the nuts and bolts of
00:29:24 ►
running a school system.
00:29:25 ►
And as the system evolves, or devolves, would be more honest, since we don’t expect it to
00:29:32 ►
get better and better in the course of time, somehow the paths of evolution, the seeds
00:29:39 ►
would be contained in this administrative system put in place in the beginning.
00:29:44 ►
Who is in charge? Do students participating in decisions and so on.
00:29:49 ►
Then even with the initiation model, I find some anxiety in thinking about this.
00:29:54 ►
Because we have in the current initiation system,
00:29:58 ►
there are two different roles in the initiation.
00:30:02 ►
That in the beginning of your introduction you alluded one is
00:30:08 ►
initiation as with the corpse the other is
00:30:13 ►
valuation see accreditation a guarantee to the world that this doctor has reached a certain
00:30:20 ►
level of skill and is therefore accredited authorized to dispense
00:30:26 ►
antibiotic medicines by prescription that means that in the initiation there has to be a
00:30:33 ►
test and in the test usually verbal as you said although when I was an
00:30:39 ►
engineering student we had to pass the welding course the test was given by a tensile test machine oh in the science is practical as well of course yes so I as
00:30:51 ►
a teacher always hated this testing aspect and claimed other people should
00:30:57 ►
do it I want to I would only I’m only willing to teach people who want to
00:31:01 ►
learn from me that is my only role that that I accept. But nevertheless, I must write letters of recommendation.
00:31:07 ►
Students who have been friends, who have respected me,
00:31:10 ►
who now beg me to assist them by writing a letter of recommendation.
00:31:14 ►
I must say that this student reached a certain level.
00:31:17 ►
I don’t even know what level the student reached.
00:31:19 ►
And whatever I thought it was, I’m not sure.
00:31:21 ►
And even if I was sure, I wouldn’t know how to say it in a sentence.
00:31:24 ►
I hate this role. And I hate grading tests and trying to figure out where to place the lines
00:31:29 ►
between the grades A, B, C, or whatever. So the testing aspect and the initiatory aspect must not
00:31:36 ►
necessarily be combined into a single tool, function, or whatever. And so I like the initiation.
00:31:44 ►
I don’t like the testing. And yet initiation, I don’t like the testing,
00:31:45 ►
and yet, if you don’t have the testing,
00:31:47 ►
then the educational system is somehow failing
00:31:49 ►
its mission to society
00:31:51 ►
in doing one of the things that society
00:31:53 ►
asks it to do, which is to
00:31:55 ►
produce tradesmen. You see, I don’t accept
00:31:57 ►
plumbing in the
00:31:59 ►
educational curriculum. Everybody should
00:32:01 ►
learn computer programming and other
00:32:03 ►
kinds of plumbing, of course.
00:32:09 ►
But I think the heart of the curriculum the school system should somehow transcend the trades and the apprenticeship for a
00:32:15 ►
profession and the learning of basic skills walk around jump eat a complete
00:32:21 ►
diet and so on where is the spiritual value? Where is moral and ethical value? Where
00:32:28 ►
is the fabric of society? Where is that taught? If not in the school, then embedded in soap operas
00:32:35 ►
or where? Somehow the curriculum has to have a spiritual, moral, well, social values,
00:32:46 ►
which could fit in the workshop mode,
00:32:49 ►
which could be consistent with the initiatory,
00:32:52 ►
but have nothing to do with the trade school and the trade union.
00:32:57 ►
There would be maybe some spiritual elite,
00:32:59 ►
some professors of moral philosophy.
00:33:02 ►
We would have Plato and Socrates would be leading a workshop,
00:33:05 ►
something like that,
00:33:06 ►
then I could see that it fits in this mode.
00:33:10 ►
But somehow, whoever is arranging the workshop in plumbing
00:33:14 ►
and who’s arranging the workshop in spiritual value,
00:33:17 ►
these must be, I guess, differently qualified people.
00:33:20 ►
Finally, I think this,
00:33:23 ►
another thing that has crippled the modern university is
00:33:27 ►
the isolation of the specialties and I don’t see in this new vision a way of
00:33:33 ►
dealing with that. I think that besides the workshop with one leader, we must
00:33:38 ►
have workshops with trialogue leaders so that the interplay of the different specialties
00:33:45 ►
could be given due time in fact equal time with specialties I don’t propose as
00:33:52 ►
many people do to replace courses in specialties completely with
00:33:56 ►
interdisciplinary courses I think it’s kind of a partnership mother earth
00:34:01 ►
father sky that there will be specialties and equal time for syncretists
00:34:06 ►
to put it together and obtain
00:34:08 ►
some meaning
00:34:09 ►
from three or four
00:34:12 ►
specialties and to free associate
00:34:14 ►
upon all of this relating
00:34:16 ►
whatever is the subject
00:34:18 ►
matter of a workshop of the entire
00:34:20 ►
educational experience
00:34:21 ►
to the progress, the future of society
00:34:24 ►
and evolutionary challenges presented to each generation just some other problems
00:34:29 ►
I think not addressed by your suggestions so far and that somehow these
00:34:36 ►
have to be not addressed individually but taken into account somehow in the
00:34:41 ►
overall design of educational system for a new world order
00:34:46 ►
it means the participation of the community in the selection of the
00:34:50 ►
curriculum it needs a certain rigidity that resists evolution that’s too fast
00:34:55 ►
it means the partnership of the special and the general it means the
00:35:02 ►
relationship to life not only in terms of fixing the faucets
00:35:06 ►
but also in making moral decisions in every day about how to
00:35:11 ►
relate to our altruism and selfishness and
00:35:17 ►
Synergy and I have no idea how to how to do this how to change the system
00:35:23 ►
I just think that what you’ve suggested is the beginning of an evolutionary track
00:35:26 ►
very similar to the one that we’re now on and in the course of just a few years or
00:35:32 ►
generations would result in the same mess that we now have. We need a newer new idea.
00:35:39 ►
Well, I mean what’s
00:35:42 ►
obviously the element lacking from what I talked about
00:35:45 ►
and which you draw attention to is largely the kind of spiritual dimension,
00:35:49 ►
because I was talking about a reformed secular educational system,
00:35:53 ►
taking for granted the fact that the present educational system is secular.
00:35:58 ►
Now, if one can think of a spiritually based educational system,
00:36:01 ►
then it’s in a completely different realm of possibilities.
00:36:05 ►
The problem, however, is that if it were Christian-based, then all the Jews, Muslims, Hindus and atheists
00:36:10 ►
would object. If it were Jewish, all the rest… you know, and if it were Hindu, then fundamentalist
00:36:16 ►
Christian parents would object. You know, what stymied one of the terrible impasses
00:36:22 ►
of the modern educational system is because of secular pluralism
00:36:25 ►
and because the role
00:36:27 ►
the importance secular pluralism
00:36:29 ►
has for the modern political ideology
00:36:32 ►
which is this kind of humanist
00:36:34 ►
capitalist
00:36:36 ►
free market ideology
00:36:37 ►
it’s a very important feature
00:36:39 ►
it means that no one
00:36:43 ►
spiritual traditional practice can be used in schools
00:36:46 ►
except in explicitly Roman Catholic schools or Jewish schools or Muslim schools
00:36:53 ►
which is why a lot of people want separate German Catholic Jewish Muslim schools
00:36:56 ►
exactly because they do think this is important
00:36:59 ►
but in the secular system you can’t do it
00:37:01 ►
so there’s a terrible blockage there
00:37:04 ►
and the only way to overcome this problem the secular system you can’t do it. So there’s a terrible blockage there and
00:37:05 ►
the only way to overcome this problem would be to have a new official world
00:37:09 ►
order which could empower, accredit etc. which is not the secular state because
00:37:16 ►
the secular state by its very nature is desacralized. It’s a
00:37:23 ►
humanist concept. So the thing is that this revolution would. It’s a humanist concept.
00:37:29 ►
So the thing is that this revolution would have to go a long way if you want the entire package deal.
00:37:31 ►
A long way.
00:37:31 ►
It would require some kind of new religious consensus
00:37:35 ►
into which people could be initiated.
00:37:38 ►
Now, I think that’s perhaps hoping for too much.
00:37:41 ►
And my more moderate suggestion would be firstly that each
00:37:47 ►
initiation has to involve a real experience at different levels of
00:37:54 ►
reality so like archaeology you wouldn’t just study in books and see slides and
00:37:58 ►
videos of these things you’d have to go to certain sacred places and maybe spend
00:38:02 ►
the night there alone if it was that kind, or the day there, or whatever.
00:38:08 ►
So that you actually came to know the spirits of these places that you’ve been talking about, the kinds of places.
00:38:12 ►
You knew it directly from real experience.
00:38:15 ►
And you’d also do this kind of thing, if it had this vision quest element, you’d have a group initiation quality to it as well.
00:38:22 ►
And there’d be this sense of initiation into social groups and the honour of groups and so on, which would be a series of self-regulating
00:38:29 ►
societies, which would be models. Then, if for the entire society to have a system of
00:38:35 ►
regulation, you’d need to have official state rights, like they do in Japan through the
00:38:41 ►
Shinto religion and the Emperor, and as we do in Britain through the monarchy and still acknowledged official state rights like, you know, the Royal Opening
00:38:49 ►
of Parliament, praying for the Queen and that kind of thing. But most countries don’t have
00:38:55 ►
the possibility of transforming that system. In Britain we do, and I think the problem
00:39:02 ►
is quite different here in America, because there isn’t American politics based on a different model, a desacralized
00:39:09 ►
model. So the alternative is the American way would be to have a free-for-all
00:39:15 ►
and how it would work is this. Each student at age 17 would be given a book
00:39:20 ►
of 55 workshop vouchers and they’d be told that to become an
00:39:25 ►
initiated adult they would have to take 55 workshops over the next three years
00:39:30 ►
or maybe 40 workshops or whatever and there’d have to be five in the kind of
00:39:35 ►
group dynamics social myths history you know understanding our society and the
00:39:41 ►
kind of social ethic as well as direct group experience some would be in philosophy others in natural history and knowing
00:39:48 ►
about the natural world etc so you’d have some stipulation on the minimum
00:39:53 ►
number in each and then they’re simply there’s a computerized centralized
00:39:57 ►
Esalen Hollyhock etc catalog far many more workshop centers would spring up
00:40:02 ►
all over based on modified summer camps etc.
00:40:06 ►
and into all modified schools existing schools and you’d have local patterns of workshops
00:40:16 ►
and you’d have also ones to which people travel and stay and this is the students credential And this… You mean that the student’s credential on finishing the use of the 55 vouchers
00:40:25 ►
would be the list of workshops that had been completed to the point of initiation?
00:40:31 ►
Then it would be…
00:40:33 ►
The whole process would be started by some initiatory thing into this pathway.
00:40:37 ►
Each workshop would itself have an initiatory pattern.
00:40:40 ►
And the whole thing would culminate in some final test,
00:40:44 ►
which would be the borderline from the student having passed a certain, a test not only involving intellectual skills, but also skills in groups, also some kind of social sense or responsibility as actually done through groups and workshop learning, making group dynamics
00:41:05 ►
conscious and so on. And so and then there’d be some final test that involved all
00:41:11 ►
these and it would be like one of these and it I think it could probably also
00:41:15 ►
involve like the Eleusinian mysteries a psychedelic revelation. I think this
00:41:20 ►
would be probably the best way to have the graduation thing, to have to have this
00:41:23 ►
psychedelic initiation thing. Maybe mushrooms would be probably the best way to have the graduation thing, to have the psychedelic initiation thing.
00:41:25 ►
Maybe mushrooms would be the best thing.
00:41:28 ►
Oh, absolutely.
00:41:28 ►
The archaic return, the culmination of the educational process in the archaic mystery,
00:41:36 ►
which is where it always ended.
00:41:38 ►
Well, besides the fact that you address my complaint about the lack of the sacred
00:41:46 ►
with actually an interesting
00:41:48 ►
covert plan for the introduction
00:41:50 ►
of a new world religion
00:41:51 ►
through this religious aspect
00:41:53 ►
of the initiations and the visits
00:41:54 ►
to the sacred sites.
00:41:56 ►
There’s also the possibility,
00:41:58 ►
since there’s no school in this plan,
00:42:00 ►
there are workshop centers all over the place,
00:42:02 ►
that ordinary courses of religion, ethics
00:42:07 ►
and so on according to different traditions would also be offering workshops and students
00:42:12 ►
according to their choice of ancient tradition.
00:42:14 ►
That’s right, yes.
00:42:15 ►
And Neopagan, Neoplatonic and Neopathagorean and so on.
00:42:19 ►
Roman Catholic, Methodist.
00:42:21 ►
Yes.
00:42:22 ►
Islamic, Hindu. There’d be workshops in these, and Tibetan Buddhist,
00:42:31 ►
led by people in those traditions. If you want to know about Judaism, you don’t go to
00:42:35 ►
a religious education instructor who tells you about it from a book. You go to do a workshop
00:42:40 ►
with a rabbi. Yes. And then the relationship between education and the job market would be imagined then through some classified ads as a person
00:42:49 ►
wanted must have three W courses, two E courses and one S or something like that.
00:42:54 ►
Right. And then as these requirements of different industries became known, people
00:42:58 ►
seeking a certain profession would see to it that they learned how to read, for
00:43:03 ►
example, or how to write a computer.
00:43:06 ►
Well that would be that would be one way it would work yes and I think that this
00:43:10 ►
educational system probably would fulfill the needs of industry that I
00:43:14 ►
hadn’t thought of that way better than the present one because it would
00:43:17 ►
actually give a much better sense of the industry. They’re not interested in
00:43:21 ►
taking graduates who just think from books. They complain all the time in Britain about how they don’t want university graduates in a lot of British industries.
00:43:30 ►
Their heads are too big, and they’re too big for their boots, and they don’t respect practical experience.
00:43:35 ►
So they’d rather take people straight from school.
00:43:37 ►
Common pattern.
00:43:38 ►
Well, English universities were started by the church,
00:43:42 ►
but American universities, as Paige Smith points out in his book,
00:43:46 ►
were started by tycoons of business.
00:43:50 ►
And each successful tycoon
00:43:53 ►
had to have among his credentials
00:43:55 ►
a university he’d started with an endowment.
00:43:59 ►
So, besides, I think, the vision,
00:44:07 ►
this is a good one, it’s becoming for me personally more and more satisfactory and also
00:44:09 ►
plausible
00:44:09 ►
I think that some people have suggested
00:44:13 ►
actually that the public school system
00:44:14 ►
be replaced with a voucher system
00:44:16 ►
this is an active
00:44:18 ►
proposal at the moment
00:44:20 ►
this is a Thatcherite idea too
00:44:22 ►
the point is this voucher system is part of the current
00:44:24 ►
political orthodoxy, so it’s
00:44:25 ►
very easy to see
00:44:28 ►
how it might be realized in a new form.
00:44:30 ►
Yeah. Well, that’s, I think,
00:44:32 ►
some, a question we
00:44:33 ►
have to face is the,
00:44:36 ►
besides the envision of the final product,
00:44:38 ►
also some idea as to the path
00:44:40 ►
that goes from here, point A, to there,
00:44:42 ►
point B.
00:44:43 ►
And it’s hard to see how to get rid of this entrenched public school system.
00:44:50 ►
It would have to be, as we’re talking about politics here,
00:44:52 ►
there would have to be a plebiscite.
00:44:57 ►
The voters insist on the opportunity to control the school system and that they want a voucher system.
00:45:07 ►
You simply privatize it. And you privatize the education, you have a voucher system
00:45:12 ►
valid at any school. The well-known approved list which is constituted by a new kind of educational board,
00:45:18 ►
not the old one. And the approved list includes Waldorf schools, you know, Montessori schools.
00:45:24 ►
It would include Catholic schools, Islamic schools. I mean, there would be a whole range of Waldorf schools, Montessori schools, it would include Catholic
00:45:26 ►
schools, Islamic schools, I mean there would be a whole range of accredited schools including
00:45:30 ►
former public schools which would now become sort of autonomous town schools or something.
00:45:34 ►
They would compete in the open market. And this system would be extremely, it would be
00:45:40 ►
pluralistic, it would be extremely responsive to what people actually want
00:45:45 ►
and what parents and students are really interested in.
00:45:48 ►
And it would have the advantage of being very decentralized and self-regulating.
00:45:56 ►
Well, they had me there for a while,
00:45:58 ►
but I have to admit that Rupert lost me at the end there
00:46:02 ►
when he started promoting a voucher system for public schools.
00:46:06 ►
Maybe we’ll hear Terrence and Ralph’s response to that in the second half of this trialogue,
00:46:11 ►
which will be our next podcast.
00:46:13 ►
But unfortunately, that won’t be until next week.
00:46:17 ►
I know, you were getting used to me putting out three podcasts a week there for a while,
00:46:23 ►
and you were really kind to give me a pass when I cut it back to only podcasts a week there for a while, and you were really kind to give
00:46:25 ►
me a pass when I cut it back to only two a week.
00:46:28 ►
So it really does bother me that I’m going to have to cut back to just one podcast a
00:46:32 ►
week for a while here, but I’ve got a really good reason this time.
00:46:36 ►
At least I think so.
00:46:38 ►
You see, I’m leaving for the East Coast tomorrow so that I can be with my children and grandchildren
00:46:43 ►
to help celebrate my oldest granddaughter’s eighth birthday. So you see, I really do have a good
00:46:49 ►
excuse this time, and I promise to get the second half of this tape out as soon as I
00:46:54 ►
get back next week. But that means it’ll probably be late Wednesday or sometimes Thursday before
00:47:00 ►
I get it out to you, and hey, I really appreciate your understanding. I don’t know about you, but I do like the idea about a workshop-based system
00:47:09 ►
to replace our current Western system of indoctrinating our children into the fabric of society
00:47:15 ►
before they have the opportunity to make an informed choice on their own about just where they want to fit in.
00:47:21 ►
I know that if I had an education that taught me how to think instead of what to think,
00:47:27 ►
I’m sure my life choices would have been significantly different
00:47:30 ►
than they were when I was still thinking the way I was brainwashed into thinking
00:47:34 ►
by the culture that I was born into.
00:47:37 ►
It seems to me that the way we educate those who come after us
00:47:41 ►
actually changes the world more than any of us can do on our own.
00:47:46 ►
So this is really a vitally important issue, at least in my humble opinion.
00:47:52 ►
And another thing they got me thinking about was when Ralph was talking about the workshop
00:47:56 ►
model for an education system, you know, the one that Rupert and Terrence had proposed.
00:48:02 ►
And his primary question, as I understood it, was,
00:48:05 ►
so who would decide which workshops would be given, and so on.
00:48:10 ►
Basically, his question seemed to be, who would administer this new system?
00:48:14 ►
And I wonder how Ralph would frame this question now
00:48:17 ►
that the Internet has evolved to its current point,
00:48:21 ►
which, of course, is still only a small glimmer of what it’s going
00:48:25 ►
to be in ten years.
00:48:27 ►
The amazing variety of courses and workshops that are offered right now already boggle
00:48:33 ►
the mind, so I guess the question goes from who will decide what is offered to one of
00:48:38 ►
how does one decide which courses and workshops to take?
00:48:43 ►
And I guess the Joseph Campbell answer is the one I’d vote for.
00:48:47 ►
Follow your bliss, which I discovered is often easier to say than to actually do.
00:48:54 ►
And I’m sure that many professional teachers would argue that something more structured
00:48:59 ►
than the hodgepodge of today’s Internet is needed to properly educate somebody.
00:49:03 ►
But I’ll tell you this.
00:49:05 ►
From the thoughtful comments I’ve been receiving in e-mails
00:49:08 ►
from people who are less than one-third of my age,
00:49:11 ►
all I can say is that they’re sure learning a lot of important things
00:49:15 ►
that I don’t think you’ll find in many school curriculums.
00:49:18 ►
I’m just blown away by some of your comments,
00:49:21 ►
and my guess is that a lot of what you’ve learned
00:49:23 ►
has come from surfing far and wide on the Internet. Thank you. are going to be like, you know? They’ll never know what life was like without a high-speed Internet connection.
00:49:45 ►
I wish I could travel into the future
00:49:47 ►
and hear what kind of stories my great-grandchildren
00:49:50 ►
will tell their children about how hard life was
00:49:53 ►
when they were growing up.
00:49:55 ►
I remember my mother talking about not having indoor plumbing,
00:49:58 ►
and my big hardship was that our television
00:50:01 ►
was only in black and white when I was a kid.
00:50:03 ►
And my children, of course, can say how hard life was before the Internet,
00:50:07 ►
and at the rate we’re going, it won’t be long before children are hearing their parents tell them
00:50:12 ►
what life was like before there was a holodeck in every home.
00:50:16 ►
Well, I guess I’d better close before I get too carried away here,
00:50:19 ►
but there is one more thing I want to mention,
00:50:22 ►
and that is, did you get a chance to see the Comet McNaught the last few days?
00:50:27 ►
I don’t think it’s visible in the northern hemisphere any longer, but if you happen to live south of the equator, I think you still have a few days to see it.
00:50:35 ►
And to be honest, I wasn’t all that excited about seeing it at first, but thankfully, my wife encouraged me to join her in watching it while we could,
00:50:44 ►
and I have to tell you that it turned into a rather mystical experience for me
00:50:48 ►
To begin with, it was a lot bigger than I remember Halley’s Comet to be when it was here a few years ago
00:50:54 ►
And when I looked at it through some binoculars, I was really blown away
00:50:58 ►
It was just huge
00:51:00 ►
And as I looked at it, I tried to imagine what it would sound like if I was riding it into our atmosphere.
00:51:07 ►
And when I did that, I was suddenly struck by the fact that had that comet’s path been only a tiny bit closer,
00:51:14 ►
it actually could have hit the Earth and essentially brought our great human experiment to an end.
00:51:20 ►
I know that my words aren’t really conveying what I felt at the moment,
00:51:24 ►
but seeing that huge fiery object speeding through space
00:51:27 ►
and knowing that if it struck the Earth we’d all be done for,
00:51:31 ►
well, that just made me intensely aware of how fragile our hold on life on this little planet really is.
00:51:38 ►
Why we’re spending so much of our time building weapons
00:51:41 ►
instead of figuring out ways to divert these large objects that keep coming our
00:51:45 ►
way is just beyond me. You know, eventually something as large as that comet is going to be
00:51:50 ►
heading right for us, and the sooner we begin working on what to do about that inevitable problem,
00:51:56 ►
the better chance we’re going to have of solving it before it solves all of our human problems
00:52:00 ►
once and for all. So if you’re living down under right now, why don’t you go out and do some comet watching
00:52:07 ►
the next few nights?
00:52:08 ►
It really is inspiring.
00:52:10 ►
At least it was for me.
00:52:12 ►
Well, before I go, once again,
00:52:15 ►
I need to mention that this and all of the podcasts
00:52:17 ►
from the Psychedelic Salon are protected
00:52:19 ►
under the Creative Commons Attribution
00:52:21 ►
Non-Commercial Share Alike 2.5 License.
00:52:25 ►
And if you have any questions about that,
00:52:26 ►
just click on the link at the bottom of the Psychedelic Salon webpage,
00:52:30 ►
which you can find at matrixmasters.com slash podcasts.
00:52:35 ►
And if you still have questions,
00:52:36 ►
you can send them in an email to Lorenzo at matrixmasters.com.
00:52:42 ►
Thanks again to Chateau Hayuk for letting us use your music here in the
00:52:46 ►
Psychedelic Salon, and for now
00:52:48 ►
this is Lorenzo
00:52:50 ►
signing off from Cyberdelic Space.
00:52:53 ►
Be well, my friends.
00:53:02 ►
Into the light
00:53:04 ►
Into the light Into the light Thank you.