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008 - Art, Love, Family, and Psychedelics (Part 2)

Jun 17, 2005, 44 min read

Program Notes

Guest speaker: Zena, Allyson, & Alex Grey

This is the second part of a talk by Alex, Allyson, and Zena Grey at Burning Man 2003.

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007 - Art, Love, Family, and Psychedelics (Part 1)

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009 - Waking Up from the American Dream

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Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Three-dimensional, transforming, musical, linguistic objects.

00:00:10 ►

Elm machines. Greetings from cyberdelic space.

00:00:40 ►

I’m Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:44 ►

Now, in case you missed our last podcast, Psychedelic Salon number 7,

00:00:49 ►

you might want to go back and take a listen because it’s actually the first part of a talk

00:00:54 ►

we’re going to finish up in this session of the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:58 ►

And it’s a presentation given by Zena Allison and Alex Gray at the 2003 Burning Man Festival.

00:01:04 ►

Zena Allison and Alex Gray at the 2003 Burning Man Festival.

00:01:11 ►

When we left off, Allison was just talking about being aware of yourself as a parent.

00:01:17 ►

And to be honest with you, that’s something I wish I’d known about when I was helping to raise a family myself. So I hope that those of you who are new and prospective parents are taking good notes about psychedelic parenting here.

00:01:23 ►

Prospective parents are taking good notes about psychedelic parenting here.

00:01:32 ►

Now we’ll pick up the conversation where we left off before we were so rudely interrupted by such a mundane consideration as file size.

00:01:40 ►

So sit back, relax, and hear what the Grays have to say about parenting in the psychedelic age.

00:01:48 ►

We call it parenting in other mind states.

00:01:50 ►

You know, many of us are users of substances,

00:02:00 ►

and in a country where, in a place, in a world, really,

00:02:04 ►

where that use is illegal,

00:02:07 ►

dangerous because of its illegality, as well as dangerous just because of its possibilities of mental instability

00:02:16 ►

or inability to cope with the drug situation.

00:02:21 ►

But also, many of us, almost all of us, I should probably say,

00:02:25 ►

have had positive experiences

00:02:27 ►

through using substances.

00:02:30 ►

So how do we be parents

00:02:31 ►

with that fear, you know,

00:02:34 ►

that our child might be one of those people

00:02:35 ►

that journey and never comes back,

00:02:37 ►

or, you know, we want our child to be safe,

00:02:40 ►

we want them to be healthy,

00:02:41 ►

we don’t want them to get arrested,

00:02:44 ►

you know. We’ve interviewed a lot them to get arrested, you know.

00:02:45 ►

We’ve interviewed a lot of people about this,

00:02:47 ►

you know, people who keep it from their children

00:02:51 ►

and who lie to their children.

00:02:52 ►

And that’s something that we don’t do

00:02:54 ►

and we never have done.

00:02:56 ►

So basically, you know, our advice is to tell the truth,

00:03:00 ►

but only to tell as much truth as a child is ready to hear about psychedelics

00:03:06 ►

and about substance use.

00:03:09 ►

Because they don’t want to know everything about it.

00:03:11 ►

Basically, they hear that it’s wrong, they hear that it’s illegal,

00:03:14 ►

and they don’t want to know about it except for what they ask you.

00:03:17 ►

So my advice is to answer the questions only that they ask, not more than what they ask.

00:03:23 ►

And not to tell an untruth.

00:03:26 ►

And, you know, I also recommend, people have asked me about, you know, should we use drugs

00:03:33 ►

while pregnant or while, I’ll just tell you, we decided to abstain from all drugs before

00:03:41 ►

conception for maybe half a year. We abstain from all substances, including alcohol.

00:03:47 ►

And then we abstain from substances during pregnancy and during nursing.

00:03:52 ►

I just feel that, you know, I didn’t want to pass those substances along to my Buddha.

00:04:00 ►

And, you know, I think that young egos are not ready for ego dissolving.

00:04:07 ►

So I just feel like that, you know, it’s not

00:04:10 ►

a bad thing to be

00:04:11 ►

abstinent for a little while, knowing that

00:04:13 ►

one day you can go back to those practices

00:04:16 ►

if they’re important to you.

00:04:17 ►

Just something I’m talking about.

00:04:19 ►

No, this is good.

00:04:22 ►

Let’s see. So listen and initiate.

00:04:24 ►

So now we have

00:04:25 ►

a teenager

00:04:26 ►

who many of her friends

00:04:28 ►

are, you know,

00:04:29 ►

experimenting.

00:04:31 ►

And so now what?

00:04:34 ►

You know,

00:04:35 ►

well, our practice is,

00:04:37 ►

you know,

00:04:37 ►

not to be users

00:04:38 ►

in her presence very much.

00:04:39 ►

She knows that we don’t

00:04:40 ►

use in her presence

00:04:41 ►

because she doesn’t want

00:04:43 ►

to be a user right now.

00:04:44 ►

And so, you know, we don’t use in her presence because she doesn’t want to be a user right now. And so, you know, we don’t want to have, well, basically when Zena was younger, we didn’t

00:04:52 ►

want anything, any emergencies to come up that we couldn’t handle. We didn’t want her

00:04:58 ►

to find us strange or weird or think that something was off about mom and dad, you know. In other words,

00:05:08 ►

offer her stability,

00:05:10 ►

you know, and sort of a regular personality.

00:05:12 ►

Just melting down.

00:05:13 ►

Right.

00:05:14 ►

Right.

00:05:15 ►

And, well,

00:05:17 ►

do you want to

00:05:19 ►

say something?

00:05:21 ►

All your shoulders back, Tina.

00:05:26 ►

So, anyway, yeah, so we stay in her presence.

00:05:33 ►

But, you know, you find as your child gets older,

00:05:36 ►

there’s more and more opportunities when you can, you know,

00:05:39 ►

you can have these journeys if they’re very important to you,

00:05:42 ►

which they are to us, in a sacramental way. You can have these journeys when Dina’s off busy doing something that’s important

00:05:48 ►

to her, so we don’t have to do them in her presence. I just don’t, you know, I would

00:05:52 ►

enjoy it, because I would feel sort of, you know, worried and uptight, and how is she

00:05:56 ►

doing, and what if something went wrong, and how can I take care of her? It wouldn’t make

00:06:00 ►

my journey pleasant either, so, you know, I’d much prefer to just stay during those

00:06:04 ►

times.

00:06:01 ►

my journey pleasant either.

00:06:03 ►

So, you know, I much preferred to just stay during those times.

00:06:05 ►

I never really cared.

00:06:07 ►

I mean, I don’t know. I knew you guys were

00:06:09 ►

doing it, and it was like,

00:06:11 ►

okay, yeah.

00:06:15 ►

I don’t know.

00:06:15 ►

It didn’t really, like, bother me, I don’t think.

00:06:18 ►

Well, that’s because we didn’t

00:06:20 ►

do it around her. I mean, the thing that we

00:06:21 ►

had to tell her early on,

00:06:23 ►

and I forgot to mention this, is that, you know, one of the really dangerous things about it is that it around her. I mean, the thing that we had to tell her early on, and I forgot to mention this, is that

00:06:25 ►

one of the really dangerous

00:06:28 ►

things about it is that it’s illegal.

00:06:30 ►

And if you do it

00:06:31 ►

openly with your friends and you get

00:06:34 ►

caught, it could ruin your life.

00:06:36 ►

Trying to go hard on a child is really

00:06:38 ►

difficult because they really don’t

00:06:40 ►

see the future. They don’t

00:06:41 ►

see consequences as clearly

00:06:44 ►

as you do when you’ve been there.

00:06:46 ►

We did look for opportunities when she was not around to smoke.

00:06:50 ►

And I do think that it’s been my experience, and it’s probably because of cultural practices,

00:06:57 ►

that the young people that are Xena’s age, 14, that are smoking, are not smoking responsibly and that they’re not drinking responsibly

00:07:07 ►

either.

00:07:08 ►

And this is what they say, what the study is to show, and it probably is because of

00:07:12 ►

cultural practices, but that 9th and 10th graders at this point are, they are not casual

00:07:21 ►

or moderate users.

00:07:22 ►

There are no casual, moderate 9th and 10th grade users.

00:07:25 ►

They are experimenting to, like they drink until they throw up. They drink until they’re

00:07:33 ►

really way drunk. They don’t know about moderation. By the time they’re in 11th and 12th grade,

00:07:38 ►

they learn about moderation or they give it up altogether or they become addicts. This

00:07:42 ►

is what I’ve been told and what I’ve read. And I think that young users tend to not have that sense of responsibility about it,

00:07:51 ►

and when they have their lives, their activities to attend to and they’re growing,

00:07:59 ►

it can become a real distraction from manifesting their best performances in their life.

00:08:07 ►

I thought it would be better, we both felt it would be better if she waited.

00:08:13 ►

We asked Ceda why her friends were all experimenting and she wasn’t.

00:08:17 ►

Why do you think that you haven’t tried it and so many of your friends are trying?

00:08:22 ►

She goes out with friends and they are of your friends are trying. But she goes out with friends that, and they

00:08:25 ►

are doing it in the parties, you know, and sometimes, in the beginning she would leave,

00:08:28 ►

but sometimes she doesn’t leave. They just smoke and she just doesn’t do it. And we wondered

00:08:32 ►

why. And she gave us two answers. Usually we don’t mind quoting you. I remember it vividly

00:08:39 ►

because it’s one of my favorite subjects is parenting and drugs. But anyway, what she came up with, which I think she’s very wise,

00:08:49 ►

is, number one, that she’s been a professional actress since she was seven.

00:08:56 ►

So she has her own identity.

00:08:58 ►

She has developed an identity as an actress and as a professional person.

00:09:03 ►

Her interests are very strong with her,

00:09:05 ►

her passions are very strong.

00:09:07 ►

And in having those passions,

00:09:09 ►

she doesn’t feel like she needs to identify.

00:09:12 ►

You can have this as an identity.

00:09:14 ►

A lot of her friends are using it to individuate.

00:09:16 ►

They’re like, I smoke,

00:09:18 ►

and they’re one of the first ones to smoke in the cinema.

00:09:20 ►

So she doesn’t need that.

00:09:22 ►

And if she didn’t have acting or the things that she does well,

00:09:26 ►

she might actually

00:09:27 ►

try it. That’s what she said. She might actually try

00:09:29 ►

it just to kind of stand out in the crowd.

00:09:32 ►

Well, like, since everybody’s doing

00:09:33 ►

it now, it’s not like you’re standing out.

00:09:35 ►

It’s not like you’re original. So, like,

00:09:37 ►

not doing it is original.

00:09:43 ►

That’s not what I was thinking this whole time.

00:09:46 ►

But I’m not like, I’m the original.

00:09:48 ►

I’m going to be, ooh.

00:09:49 ►

But that’s true.

00:09:51 ►

Okay, I just wanted to say one thing.

00:09:53 ►

It was basically, when I was like 12, 13, I had friends who were tripping.

00:09:59 ►

And for some reason, I was kind of depressed at that time.

00:10:02 ►

And I just didn’t do it.

00:10:06 ►

And I didn’t do it until I was 21, and I met Allison. And of course, it was a wonderful, incredible experience

00:10:12 ►

that’s changed my life, and I have always been a great supporter of this capacity that

00:10:20 ►

psychedelics have to sort of add a transformative catalyst to our consciousness.

00:10:27 ►

But it’s really hard for me to say, looking back.

00:10:31 ►

You know, I might have been able to have that early on.

00:10:34 ►

You know, if I had just ventured in to the abyss and swung around,

00:10:41 ►

maybe I could have found my way through the sort of depression years of

00:10:46 ►

teenagehood. It’s really impossible for me to say right now. It worked out perfectly

00:10:52 ►

for me as far as my relationship and use of acid, and I’ve been an advocate of responsible sacramental use

00:11:05 ►

ever since.

00:11:07 ►

It’s really tough.

00:11:09 ►

Those times are just completely

00:11:11 ►

individual decisions

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that have to be made.

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I think that sometimes

00:11:17 ►

young people hear about

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their older brothers and sisters

00:11:21 ►

that may be going to trans parties

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or some things.

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Some people do that responsibly and find a way to, you know, at its most positive,

00:11:37 ►

these are incredibly bonding experiences with a person, with themselves,

00:11:40 ►

when they’re dancing on ecstasy or something like that.

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The guards are dropped down and you’re able to see each other as expressions of this divine energy that you’re one with, that the universe is a perfect place,

00:11:53 ►

it’s a perfect teaching machine that you’re part of.

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And so if they’re very positive experiences

00:11:59 ►

and people are able to at least communicate a little bit about them

00:12:03 ►

and say that there are these

00:12:05 ►

possibilities. This is the whole thing about why there’s so much fucked upness about drugs,

00:12:12 ►

I think, is this loss and lack of communication. It’s one of the things that Rick is trying

00:12:17 ►

to heal by being out there with the MAPS journal and all of the efforts that people are doing when they’re telling a story that’s appropriate of a trip.

00:12:29 ►

That, well, one day I had an experience that, you know,

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just say I took LSD and this happened.

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Or if we were able at appropriate times,

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I know my parents have never liked to hear

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that I had

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these experiences while taking psychedelics but I’ve never shied away

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from sharing that and I think that the more people that do share whether these

00:12:57 ►

experiences are of significance the more a growing tide of recognition that there is this possibility

00:13:05 ►

inherent in these substances, the

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entheogens.

00:13:08 ►

Like Houston Smith

00:13:12 ►

was

00:13:13 ►

able and willing, now it is

00:13:15 ►

practically 80 or something,

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to come out

00:13:19 ►

and publish all these

00:13:22 ►

essays about cleansing the doors of perception.

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He’s the world’s leading authority on religion and comparative religion.

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And so for him to say that this was one of the most important experiences in his life,

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it sends a message, a credible message,

00:13:38 ►

to a certain class of folks who have ears to hear.

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And so slowly, I think that we may be able to get this message out.

00:13:49 ►

And each of us talking to folks and to try to counter the drug war propaganda

00:13:57 ►

that has really jailed the minds of young,

00:14:03 ►

you know, putting bars over these possible portals

00:14:08 ►

into the infinite.

00:14:09 ►

Many of us living in this materialistic

00:14:12 ►

kind of focused culture

00:14:14 ►

are unable to open our doors of perception

00:14:17 ►

without these kind of explosives.

00:14:20 ►

So it’s an important message to keep getting out. The Washington Post did

00:14:30 ►

an article on this show that Allison and I are in Baltimore. One of the things was,

00:14:39 ►

the headline in the post was linking psychedelics and spirituality.

00:14:50 ►

It was wonderful just to see it, even if it was just a blast for a minute. The more that we can get that message into whatever media possible,

00:14:57 ►

the more, as someone said, the point of propaganda is not to make people believe what you’re saying.

00:15:08 ►

It’s to make them doubt the other shit that they’re hearing.

00:15:14 ►

So we can use these counter-propagandistic stories and memes

00:15:22 ►

as little teachers dropped into

00:15:26 ►

culture at various points

00:15:27 ►

that we can at least

00:15:29 ►

make people doubt the drug war

00:15:32 ►

propaganda. There was a question

00:15:34 ►

as to whether the

00:15:36 ►

art establishment

00:15:37 ►

looked down on or blacklisted

00:15:40 ►

an artist

00:15:41 ►

because of their known

00:15:44 ►

drug use and not being shy about talking about

00:15:47 ►

it. The thing is that they don’t talk about that. You just don’t ever hear from them.

00:15:53 ►

And I’ve not heard from a lot of them. So I think that Burning Man is what I think of

00:16:02 ►

as the most effulgent, inspirational concrescence of creative energy on the planet. And I think of as the most effulgent,

00:16:05 ►

inspirational concrescence of creative energy on the planet.

00:16:10 ►

And I don’t think anyone could doubt it

00:16:13 ►

or could counter it with another,

00:16:17 ►

you know, well, what about this?

00:16:20 ►

It’s just…

00:16:22 ►

Yeah.

00:16:23 ►

Well, that’s very cool.

00:16:24 ►

They’re all very cool, actually, and we don’t want to denigrate any, but I just say, since

00:16:29 ►

we’re here right now, we can recognize that expression.

00:16:35 ►

And what do we use art for, anyway?

00:16:39 ►

Yes, there is a pecking order, and you’re this most famous person in history and

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they’re in the art magazines and they get

00:16:48 ►

a review and all the rest of those

00:16:50 ►

things. All you can do

00:16:52 ►

is to just make

00:16:54 ►

the work that you want to do.

00:16:55 ►

And maybe you don’t want to

00:16:57 ►

tell this curator that you were tripping

00:16:59 ►

when you were doing that picture

00:17:01 ►

or something. That’s up to

00:17:02 ►

you. Or maybe it’s an opportunity for educating that curator

00:17:08 ►

that, not unlike Keith Haring,

00:17:12 ►

who’s a world-famous artist of the 80s

00:17:16 ►

and grew great inspiration,

00:17:19 ►

in fact credited his entire body of work

00:17:23 ►

to the trips that he took.

00:17:26 ►

Maybe it’s an opportunity for education about the opportunities that these substances can

00:17:33 ►

have for artists.

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They’re visionary substances.

00:17:37 ►

We’re working as painters with a visual medium, or as filmmakers or various other kinds of

00:17:43 ►

visual media.

00:17:44 ►

with a visual medium, or as filmmakers or various other kinds of visual media,

00:17:50 ►

they could be incredible tools in the toolbox of the artists of the 21st century.

00:17:55 ►

I just wanted to say that we all know that it’s important for us to stand up and stand behind the things that have moved and inspired us the most in our lives.

00:18:02 ►

And, you know, what else is there to living?

00:18:04 ►

You know, if you’re a Christian and being a Christian has moved and inspired your life, us the most in our lives and you know what else is there to living you know if

00:18:05 ►

you’re a Christian and being Christian has moved and inspired your life you

00:18:09 ►

want to tell everyone about it if you if you’ve had what really moves and inspires you and

00:18:15 ►

has really you know been behind all of your work your best things you want to

00:18:24 ►

talk about it and stand for it

00:18:27 ►

and not hide from it.

00:18:28 ►

But you want to do that responsibly

00:18:30 ►

and to the degree that you don’t hurt yourself.

00:18:33 ►

There’s a question about

00:18:34 ►

where did I get my level of knowledge

00:18:37 ►

and understanding about anatomy.

00:18:40 ►

Anatomy has always been a great fascination to me.

00:18:42 ►

My mother pulled out early, early drawings that I did when I was five and ten and things like that.

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And they were drawings of skeletons.

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So evidently it’s always been a subject that I’ve been interested in, the subject of mortality.

00:18:57 ►

Because the skeleton, of course, in our anatomy, when we’re looking at our internal anatomy,

00:19:02 ►

we’re often thinking, eww, guts, you know, hey, wizz, you know,

00:19:06 ►

aw, gee whiz, you know, I’m a gonna die, you know.

00:19:12 ►

It’s like less avoidable as a, you know,

00:19:15 ►

like I’m a meat thing, you know.

00:19:17 ►

And so when you recognize that,

00:19:20 ►

it’s always been a potent symbol for me,

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the greatest symbol as human

00:19:25 ►

beings in human bodies that we have to seeing that we are in permanent on the

00:19:31 ►

other hand it’s a universal that we share with each other so it’s a way to

00:19:36 ►

make a universal kind of self-portrait is to make the skin more translucent and

00:19:41 ►

to focus on the internals so my interest in the subject

00:19:46 ►

came about through starting to also it was catalyzed by this tripping episodes

00:19:51 ►

where I knew that well I want to make art about consciousness that’s the

00:19:56 ►

subject that’s you know meaty subject so it’s the most important thing to me in all its spectrum. So we’re living this consciousness through this body.

00:20:11 ►

So I better understand what it is, this package,

00:20:16 ►

and this kind of black box that consciousness comes in,

00:20:19 ►

so that I’m able to speak with some kind of believability or authority about the consciousness that’s

00:20:29 ►

moving through it. So that was the job and the predicament. And then I just taught myself

00:20:36 ►

the anatomy by doing the sacred mirrors. That was the whole thing. Okay, learn the nervous

00:20:41 ►

system. It’s been mapped out before, you know, just okay go through that this this nerve goes here this nerve goes there

00:20:49 ►

and you look at the bones I already was a you know fairly decent craftsman as

00:20:55 ►

far as rendering skills and things like that so I just went into approaching

00:21:02 ►

educating myself by getting all you know know, tons of anatomy books.

00:21:07 ►

And I basically got a job in a morgue for five years

00:21:10 ►

where I was able to do dissection work

00:21:12 ►

to prepare bodies

00:21:13 ►

and to see the fabric of our, you know,

00:21:19 ►

physical flesh

00:21:21 ►

at a very close range and to understand how things fit together then I taught anatomy

00:21:30 ►

for ten years for artists and where we would if you want to learn the anatomy and the gross

00:21:37 ►

anatomy one of the best ways is to sculpt the skeleton you know get an armature and sculpt the bones each one individually and then

00:21:47 ►

put the meat on the bones you know put on the uh muscles and this can all be done in clay it’s

00:21:53 ►

called an a-corshie this is how we taught how i taught anatomy for 10 years it’s a wonderful way

00:21:59 ►

to teach it the other way is just to uh to draw it all the time. Keep drawing it or paint it like I did

00:22:06 ►

in the Sacred Mirrors.

00:22:08 ►

I was a medical illustrator

00:22:10 ►

also for about 15 years.

00:22:12 ►

All of that helped

00:22:13 ►

in learning the anatomy.

00:22:15 ►

Thanks for asking.

00:22:18 ►

He

00:22:19 ►

asked or commented

00:22:22 ►

that he heard that there was a benefit

00:22:23 ►

for the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors recently.

00:22:26 ►

There’s been a few,

00:22:28 ►

some in San Francisco,

00:22:30 ►

which I may have met some of you,

00:22:33 ►

and a couple in New York.

00:22:35 ►

And the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors

00:22:38 ►

is a dream that we want to bring out

00:22:44 ►

into the world,

00:22:45 ►

lead the world.

00:22:46 ►

It’s basically a house for this collection of art,

00:22:49 ►

the sacred mirrors,

00:22:50 ►

and numerous other paintings and things,

00:22:52 ►

works of transformative art.

00:22:54 ►

And we want to build a 21st century sacred architecture

00:22:59 ►

and it can take a lot of pointers from David Best

00:23:02 ►

and the pyramids that are appearing here.

00:23:07 ►

I’d love to talk with anybody who’s connected with all that.

00:23:11 ►

We’ve been working with an architect, Keith Critchlow,

00:23:14 ►

and we’ve found a spot in upstate New York at Omega Institute

00:23:20 ►

that has been very welcoming to this project.

00:23:27 ►

And so right now we’re focused mostly on the actual chapel being built there.

00:23:34 ►

There are some restrictions as far as height and things like that

00:23:37 ►

that we have to work with in that space.

00:23:40 ►

But right now the most exciting thing regarding the chapel is the space in Chelsea.

00:23:46 ►

Chelsea in New York City is the heart of the art world.

00:23:53 ►

And that’s where the action is of like hundreds and hundreds of galleries.

00:23:58 ►

And even museums are there in Chelsea and we’ve been given the opportunity to open a

00:24:05 ►

five year space

00:24:07 ►

at

00:24:08 ►

let’s see

00:24:10 ►

530 West 27th Street

00:24:13 ►

on the fourth floor

00:24:15 ►

we’re given 3400

00:24:18 ►

square feet and we’ve

00:24:19 ►

designed a space that we can

00:24:21 ►

although the sacred mirrors which I

00:24:24 ►

always envisioned in the ultimate chapel as being in a round room,

00:24:27 ►

these will be in kind of a long hallway, but all the sacred mirrors will be there.

00:24:33 ►

There will be about 20 other works as well.

00:24:37 ►

And so it will provide at least a space for now that we’ll be able to visit

00:24:43 ►

and see the work hold events

00:24:46 ►

possibly do hopefully do fundraising for building the actual architecture that

00:24:52 ►

will be able to then move these pieces into if we can raise five million

00:24:57 ►

dollars in this five years I think that we all have moved significantly forward to be able to actualize this

00:25:05 ►

chapel project thanks so if you’re in New York and it’s like we will pass

00:25:11 ►

through New York on the way from here to there whatever you have to come and see

00:25:14 ►

us and we will have events like we have we already have a monthly full moon

00:25:19 ►

prayer gatherings we will have art Sabbath where we draw the model and paint and listen to music and show portfolios and groove.

00:25:29 ►

And we have a fabulous shaman who holds ceremonies and other wonderful religious, interesting religious leaders that chant and do various events there.

00:25:40 ►

But our Art Sabbath is going to be a big draw, and we’ll have parties.

00:25:44 ►

And it’s in a building called Spirit New York.

00:25:46 ►

So you’ll want to come.

00:25:47 ►

It’ll open in the fall.

00:25:49 ►

Spirit New York is going to have a sort of rave club,

00:25:52 ►

and it’s going to have a restaurant and a bar,

00:25:55 ►

and massage and yoga and hypnotherapy.

00:26:00 ►

And it’s a whole building called Spirit New York.

00:26:02 ►

So Spirit is in New York.

00:26:04 ►

It’s going to be in New York, and we’re going to be part of that. And we’re being corporate building called Spirit New York. So Spirit is in New York. It’s going to be in New York

00:26:05 ►

and we’re going to be part of that. And we’re being corporate

00:26:07 ►

sponsored by Spirit New York.

00:26:10 ►

So I would say when you come to New York,

00:26:11 ►

definitely come and see Spirit New York.

00:26:13 ►

Come to the chapel.

00:26:16 ►

You know, you guys

00:26:18 ►

are out here.

00:26:19 ►

I just wanted to go to California and whatever, but

00:26:21 ►

New York really needs us. And maybe we get

00:26:23 ►

the chapel done and we will do another one in California.

00:26:26 ►

Because we have lots of friends out there.

00:26:29 ►

It’s sort of a dream.

00:26:30 ►

Yes, a great financial

00:26:32 ►

sacrifice

00:26:33 ►

to ourselves, who are

00:26:35 ►

not rich people. We did not sell

00:26:38 ►

any of the sacred

00:26:40 ►

mirrors, although we have

00:26:41 ►

had offers made for the entire

00:26:44 ►

body of work. We had a

00:26:47 ►

sort of an ecstasy experience where we realized that we needed to hold onto these works and

00:26:53 ►

keep them for people. And then there are the other 20 or 30 pieces that we have not only

00:27:00 ►

kept from selling, some of the best loved works of Alex’s that we have not sold

00:27:06 ►

but also have been buying back. We have bought back several pieces. We’re right now in the process of

00:27:12 ►

purchasing, of repurchasing a piece called Frustration which went on sale. The collector was looking for another collector and would not donate the piece to the chapel. We have many collectors who were willing

00:27:25 ►

to donate some of the best works, praying and kissing and some of the really recognizable

00:27:30 ►

pieces back to the chapel when we have it, but this collector was not and wanted the

00:27:34 ►

money, and so we have been raising money to buy back frustration. So if it’s a meaningful

00:27:39 ►

piece to you or if you have this kind of ability to donate, we have projects like our collection

00:27:51 ►

fund where we do purchase back nursing. We thought that it was important to have it in

00:27:57 ►

the series where you have pregnancy, birth, nursing, family. These are like a series of

00:28:04 ►

paintings that we felt needed to be together

00:28:06 ►

and should be seen together, should be seen by people,

00:28:09 ►

should be public and not just owned in someone’s apartment.

00:28:12 ►

Yeah, right, right.

00:28:14 ►

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:17 ►

And we like to provide images, and we try to do that on our website.

00:28:21 ►

You know, we try to provide, you know, prints,

00:28:24 ►

and small paintings are for sale still

00:28:27 ►

to try to motivate more collectors, because you’ve got to get collectors to be interested

00:28:31 ►

in the work, but the larger and more important pieces that belong together really belong

00:28:37 ►

to people, and we’re hoping that the chapel will be a public and permanent space for the

00:28:43 ►

work to be seen. The question was, what was my experience working with Tool?

00:28:48 ►

Yeah!

00:28:50 ►

We’re here!

00:28:52 ►

Thank you.

00:28:53 ►

I love Tool.

00:28:56 ►

It’s been one of the most inspiring collaborations

00:29:01 ►

that I’ve ever been fortunate enough to engage in.

00:29:08 ►

A friend, Eli Morgan, and I have been working on a book

00:29:13 ►

that kind of is a catalog of our collaboration,

00:29:19 ►

starting with the CD and the story of how Adam approached me.

00:29:25 ►

Adam Jones is the lead guitar for Tool.

00:29:30 ►

And he’s an artist. He’s an amazing artist.

00:29:33 ►

He’s a filmmaker, and his drawings of sort of mutant humans are really hilarious and terrifying.

00:29:41 ►

and terrifying.

00:29:47 ►

And so he loved my work, evidently,

00:29:50 ►

and met me at a gallery exhibit of some of my art,

00:29:53 ►

and then he started talking about

00:29:55 ►

the possibility of working together.

00:29:58 ►

So every time it’s just been,

00:30:00 ►

Adam calls up and says,

00:30:02 ►

hey, you know, I’m doing this music video.

00:30:07 ►

Would you like to add one minute to it, you know, at the end?

00:30:11 ►

And it’s sort of we need a transformation at the end.

00:30:14 ►

So he’s been very open about, you know, like whatever you want to do.

00:30:17 ►

You know, just here’s we have the computer animators.

00:30:21 ►

Let’s work together.

00:30:22 ►

And then he called up a couple weeks before their tour

00:30:25 ►

and said, do you have any ideas for stage sets?

00:30:29 ►

And so I had a few.

00:30:32 ►

We went back and forth.

00:30:33 ►

And then they made these magnificent 30-by-60-foot banners

00:30:36 ►

that were in their last tour in the sacred mirrors

00:30:40 ►

and many of the banners there.

00:30:42 ►

And it was astonishing to me

00:30:46 ►

to see how they took it

00:30:48 ►

and integrated it.

00:30:50 ►

How integrated it.

00:30:51 ►

I felt like their music

00:30:52 ►

and the performance of it

00:30:54 ►

in this last tour

00:30:55 ►

was with the artwork.

00:30:58 ►

It was…

00:30:59 ►

I was completely floored.

00:31:02 ►

It’s amazing.

00:31:03 ►

Yeah, thank you.

00:31:03 ►

Seriously.

00:31:01 ►

I was completely floored.

00:31:02 ►

It’s amazing.

00:31:03 ►

Yeah, thank you. Seriously.

00:31:08 ►

I just wanted to say that being involved with Tool for Alex’s work

00:31:12 ►

really expanded the audience for the work.

00:31:16 ►

And the goal of any artist or any musician or whatever you’re doing

00:31:21 ►

is to make more friends.

00:31:23 ►

That’s our feeling about it.

00:31:26 ►

And so we made a lot more friends because

00:31:27 ►

Toole invited Alex to be

00:31:29 ►

part of what they were doing.

00:31:32 ►

Love.

00:31:33 ►

Love is all there is.

00:31:36 ►

I also wanted to say that

00:31:38 ►

in expanding Friends

00:31:39 ►

and our network of friends even further

00:31:42 ►

Alex just finished doing the cover of a

00:31:44 ►

CD for The Spring Cheese Incident. And this is another and a network of friends even further. I just finished doing the cover of a CD

00:31:45 ►

for the Scream Cheese incident.

00:31:47 ►

And this is another entire genre of music,

00:31:50 ►

you know, a separate genre entirely,

00:31:53 ►

so that, you know, so that,

00:31:54 ►

there’s a big Scream Cheese contingent here.

00:31:56 ►

So I wanted to make sure that we mention that

00:31:58 ►

and that this hasn’t come out yet,

00:32:00 ►

but, you know, we’re incredibly honored

00:32:02 ►

to be part of, you know, the jam band scene and all those friends

00:32:06 ►

that we can make in another whole genre of music.

00:32:10 ►

Speaker 2 1 Yes, my daughter here is an official artist.

00:32:16 ►

I’m just wondering, there’s sort of a debate about art school yes or school no.

00:32:23 ►

What is your opinion?

00:32:31 ►

Okay, a parent who is here with their daughter, which is totally awesome,

00:32:37 ►

and she asks, what’s your opinion about art school?

00:32:41 ►

And art school, yes, no, she’s an artist. And, well, you know, I had a spotty relationship with art school.

00:32:48 ►

I think that if you know what you want to do already

00:32:52 ►

and you think that a community that you could link up with

00:32:58 ►

at a particular school would be helpful

00:33:01 ►

in educating yourself and connecting with other people.

00:33:07 ►

If you think that the environment there can be helpful

00:33:12 ►

and you already have sort of a direction,

00:33:16 ►

then it’s probably not a bad thing.

00:33:17 ►

It could be helpful.

00:33:20 ►

My personal experience was that I kind of had a direction

00:33:25 ►

and the art school wanted me to do a million other things

00:33:28 ►

instead of fulfilling what I was interested in.

00:33:34 ►

This is my basic complaint with all educational institutions

00:33:38 ►

is that they don’t do an assessment of the individual

00:33:42 ►

and see what they’re best at

00:33:48 ►

in their lives

00:33:49 ►

and what they love doing.

00:33:52 ►

And then accelerate that

00:33:54 ►

or speak to that and inform that.

00:33:57 ►

That’s what I’d like

00:33:59 ►

a real educational institution to do

00:34:01 ►

is to care about the developing intelligence

00:34:03 ►

of whoever they’re working with.

00:34:05 ►

And each kid is a little bit different, you know? And so try to foster that, just not

00:34:10 ►

try to force you through this pasta cutter, you know, that cuts off all your creativity

00:34:15 ►

and dreams and things. So, I went to two years of art school in Columbus, Ohio, that was like that, like the pasta variety.

00:34:30 ►

And I had to leave.

00:34:31 ►

I had a four-year scholarship, but it was so disgusting and distressing that I left.

00:34:36 ►

And then I painted billboards for a year.

00:34:40 ►

And I had to raise money.

00:34:42 ►

My parents weren’t giving me any money to go through art school or anything.

00:34:47 ►

And so I raised some money,

00:34:49 ►

and I found a really weird artist,

00:34:51 ►

Jay Jaroslav,

00:34:53 ►

and I was so fascinated with his work

00:34:56 ►

that I wanted to go and study with him.

00:34:58 ►

He was teaching at the Boston Museum School.

00:35:01 ►

So I saved my money,

00:35:02 ►

and I decided to leave Ohio

00:35:04 ►

and go study with

00:35:06 ►

this guy. And it was a great year. He was the guy that gave me acid for the first time

00:35:13 ►

and it was in his class and in relation to him that I met Allison. So art school for

00:35:20 ►

me was not about necessarily making the heart but it did

00:35:25 ►

it was a place where I was inspired eventually to become you know the kind

00:35:31 ►

of artists that I have so I left school after that I never got a degree and I

00:35:37 ►

had a perverse thrill in teaching at a university because of that and And so, yeah.

00:35:45 ►

So I advocate,

00:35:46 ►

if you know exactly what you want to do

00:35:48 ►

and you want to just do that,

00:35:51 ►

you know, instead of like spending money on art school,

00:35:54 ►

you know, buy yourself a computer

00:35:55 ►

and various other kinds of accoutrements

00:35:58 ►

that might accelerate your art product

00:36:01 ►

and doing what you want to do,

00:36:04 ►

make an investment in yourself and your

00:36:06 ►

vision, and you can skip all that nonsense.

00:36:10 ►

Otherwise, if you feel like there’s a community that you’d like to be part of, because frankly,

00:36:17 ►

a lot of the artists who’ve made it big, like David Sally and a number of his friends and

00:36:24 ►

things like that. They

00:36:25 ►

met in art school, the Cal Arts, you know, and there was kind of a bubble of artists

00:36:31 ►

that at least knew each other, and there was a cadre that kind of took over the art world

00:36:36 ►

for a while. So if you’re interested in the kind of political scene that is the art world

00:36:41 ►

as well, and it’s, you know, it’s part of a game to play.

00:36:48 ►

I’m not against playing that game with the art world.

00:36:50 ►

We want to transform the world.

00:36:53 ►

We don’t want to exclude the art world, you know.

00:36:58 ►

So we have to, in some way, participate if we can. If there’s ways of participating with the,

00:37:01 ►

whatever this legitimate art world is that we all imagine

00:37:05 ►

that’s in the art magazines and things like that.

00:37:09 ►

How are we going to transform culture

00:37:10 ►

if we can’t also insert our dreams into that world?

00:37:14 ►

So we shouldn’t exclude them.

00:37:16 ►

So be part of that if you can.

00:37:19 ►

Just briefly wanted to say that on the other side,

00:37:23 ►

I got advanced degrees in art. I went to art

00:37:25 ►

school and then went to more art school and

00:37:27 ►

got more degrees.

00:37:29 ►

But for me, it was like, you know, I had the

00:37:31 ►

resources. I was lucky enough that my

00:37:33 ►

parents could afford to

00:37:35 ►

pay for that. And I left

00:37:37 ►

the pasta cutter school. Also, I went

00:37:40 ►

to this school that I met Alex

00:37:41 ►

where you basically did whatever

00:37:43 ►

you wanted to do. And

00:37:45 ►

for me, going to school and getting more degrees

00:37:47 ►

was about my parents could help me

00:37:50 ►

to live and survive up to the point

00:37:52 ►

where I’d finish school.

00:37:54 ►

Then I’d have to go out and get a job. So I thought

00:37:56 ►

the longer I stay in school,

00:37:58 ►

the more art I’ll be able to make.

00:38:00 ►

And they were up for it.

00:38:02 ►

If I got a master’s degree or whatever, I had to

00:38:04 ►

take some academic courses along with it. And I was okay with that. So it was really, they were up for it. If I got a master’s degree or whatever, I had to take some academic courses along with it.

00:38:05 ►

And I was okay with that.

00:38:07 ►

So, you know, it was all enjoyable.

00:38:09 ►

And you do meet a lot of people.

00:38:10 ►

And all the equipment is there.

00:38:11 ►

Like if you want to learn to work in the photo lab, you don’t have to have a photo lab.

00:38:15 ►

If you want to do silk screening, you don’t have to have a silk screening studio.

00:38:18 ►

You can learn.

00:38:19 ►

And all the equipment is there.

00:38:21 ►

So that’s meaningful to you.

00:38:23 ►

And you’re not being restricted too much, as we both were in our, you know, positive coverage schools that we started off with,

00:38:29 ►

you know, and if you feel like the school doesn’t restrict your, you can get a lot,

00:38:33 ►

but don’t take what your teachers say too seriously. We’re really always appalled, and

00:38:38 ►

most people are, by teachers who want their students to make work that looks like theirs

00:38:42 ►

or have really definite dogmas about what is okay,

00:38:47 ►

what is art and what isn’t art,

00:38:48 ►

what is okay, how art should look and how it shouldn’t look.

00:38:52 ►

You’ve got to basically be Teflon and impervious to all that

00:38:56 ►

if you go to school.

00:38:58 ►

And thank God for those who are willing to support the arts.

00:39:03 ►

We wouldn’t have Vincent Van Gogh’s work at all

00:39:06 ►

unless his brother

00:39:07 ►

was there supporting him.

00:39:10 ►

So parents who support kids

00:39:12 ►

in their art, I salute

00:39:14 ►

you and

00:39:15 ►

anyone who is

00:39:18 ►

supporting the arts.

00:39:19 ►

Thank God. Hey, we love you.

00:39:23 ►

Alright.

00:39:24 ►

I think we’ve got to wrap this up

00:39:26 ►

so

00:39:26 ►

thanks so much

00:39:27 ►

everyone

00:39:28 ►

I really want to thank

00:39:31 ►

Gina

00:39:32 ►

Allison

00:39:33 ►

Alex

00:39:34 ►

and for all of you people

00:39:36 ►

out in the sun

00:39:37 ►

and the outer periphery

00:39:38 ►

thank you all

00:39:38 ►

for being here

00:39:39 ►

and thank you again

00:39:43 ►

to

00:39:44 ►

Zena Allison and, and Alex,

00:39:46 ►

not only for that great presentation,

00:39:48 ►

but also for braving the noontime conditions on the playa.

00:39:54 ►

And for those of you who want to learn more about this family of great artists,

00:39:58 ►

you should check out their personal websites.

00:40:01 ►

Zena’s is www.zenagrey.com, Z-E-N-A-G-.xenagrey.com

00:40:05 ►

Xenagrey.com

00:40:09 ►

Xenagrey.com

00:40:09 ►

Xenagrey.com

00:40:12 ►

Xenagrey.com

00:40:17 ►

Xenagrey.com

00:40:20 ►

Xenagrey.com

00:40:21 ►

And if you’d like to hear the rest of our

00:40:24 ►

2003 Blanket Norte

00:40:25 ►

lectures that were held at Burning Man that year,

00:40:28 ►

before we get them all into

00:40:29 ►

podcast format at least, you can just go to

00:40:32 ►

PlanketNorte.org.

00:40:33 ►

That’s P-A-L-E-N-Q-U-E

00:40:36 ►

N-O-R-T-E

00:40:37 ►

dot org. Or you can get there

00:40:39 ►

from the front page of our main website

00:40:42 ►

which is MatrixMasters.com.

00:40:45 ►

And again, I’d like to thank my friends at Chateau Hayouk

00:40:48 ►

for the use of their wonderful music

00:40:50 ►

here in the Psychedelic Salon,

00:40:52 ►

which, by the way, is a cut from their CD,

00:40:54 ►

Nature Loves Courage.

00:40:57 ►

Well, that’s it for now.

00:40:58 ►

I do hope you’ll join us in the next Psychedelic Salon

00:41:01 ►

when we’ll be bringing you Michael Brownstein’s talk from the 2004 Burning Man Festival.

00:41:08 ►

Michael titled this talk, Waking Up from the American Dream.

00:41:11 ►

And I think you’re going to find it quite absorbing.

00:41:14 ►

And for sure, Michael will give you a lot to think about.

00:41:17 ►

So for now, this is Lorenzo, signing off from cyberdelic space.

00:41:23 ►

Be well well my friends

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