Program Notes

https://www.patreon.com/lorenzohagerty

Guest speaker: Terence McKenna

Date this lecture was recorded: September 1990

[NOTE: All quotations are by Terence McKenna.]

“The payoff [of psychedelic experiences] is being able to design our way toward a more humane culture.”

“And I think that’s how we have to act. We have to each choose a small area and then act in that limited area with all the existential commitments we can muster. But not with anxiety.”

“Anybody who thinks that you can save the world by setting it on fire is going to be sadly disabused.”

“Politics without responsibility IS fascism.”

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Transcript

00:00:00

Greetings from cyberdelic space.

00:00:19

This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.

00:00:23

This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:30

And I would like to thank all of our fellow salonners who have made donations to the salon this year.

00:00:34

Without your help, well, I couldn’t have kept these podcasts coming.

00:00:38

And the last five salonners to make donations this year are Joseph G., Michael L., Magnus J, Bruce W, and Jaguar Knight.

00:00:47

I thank you one and all for your amazing support of these podcasts,

00:00:51

and for what it’s worth, we haven’t made great strides in figuring out how to transition to the Salon 2.0.

00:01:01

But it looks like the first phase, beginning sometime around March, will be for me to keep on doing these podcasts for a while.

00:01:10

But at the very least, I hope to be able to post a list on the salon’s forums of the talks that I already have on hand,

00:01:18

as well as any that are sent to me in the future, and let you and the rest of the salonners vote as to which one I should do

00:01:26

next, maybe in a Reddit kind of format or something. And now these plans are still in flux, I should

00:01:32

add, but that seems to be the next logical step until a more complete transition to a user-operated

00:01:39

podcast comes into better focus. And so for my final podcast of 2016, I’m going to play the last tape

00:01:48

in the Terrence McKenna workshop that we’ve been listening to lately. And okay, I know that our

00:01:54

Terrence McKenna purists are going to be a bit irritated with me, but while I’m titling this

00:02:00

part five, it’s actually the sixth tape in this series. As you probably guessed, well, the fifth Part 5 On top of that, I thought that Terrence didn’t really have his heart into talking about the time wave on this particular night.

00:02:26

So, if you want to listen to what I think is Terrence’s best talk about the time wave,

00:02:31

I recommend that you go to my podcast number 519, which he gave seven years after the date of today’s talk, which is September 1990.

00:02:41

And, in my opinion, that talk in 519 is his most complete discussion of his concept

00:02:47

of a time wave. But for now, here’s Terence.

00:02:52

Well, what else is hanging for anybody this morning?

00:02:57

How about healing?

00:02:59

Well, shamanism, we tend to lose sight of the fact that for the people who actually practice shamanism as a day-to-day thing,

00:03:10

healing is what it’s always all about.

00:03:13

And the shaman isn’t making these journeys for his own education or so forth.

00:03:20

It’s always to heal.

00:03:21

so forth. It’s always to heal.

00:03:26

I don’t really see the mushrooms as specifically

00:03:28

a cure in the ordinary

00:03:30

sense for X, Y, or Z

00:03:32

condition. It’s more

00:03:34

that

00:03:34

in the psychedelic state

00:03:38

this is kind of hard to articulate

00:03:42

and sounds like mumbo-jumbo

00:03:44

and maybe it is.

00:03:45

But I’ve noticed that in the psychedelic state, it’s as though within the parameters of the body,

00:03:53

the ordinary laws of physics are somewhat in suspension.

00:03:57

And there is a great deal to be learned by somebody about touch and light and sound,

00:04:10

especially sound, I think.

00:04:13

Sound, to me, is the key to understanding

00:04:17

and going deeper with the psychedelic thing,

00:04:20

not only in the healing modality,

00:04:22

and in that case it’s about sound directed into the body

00:04:27

because we do have extraordinary senses

00:04:31

on psilocybin and on these other tryptamines

00:04:35

and I’m not mystical or woolly-eyed about this

00:04:38

and I don’t make any claims about what senses

00:04:41

but if you sit down with a person or

00:04:45

a watermelon for that matter

00:04:47

when you’re stoned

00:04:49

and sing into

00:04:51

it

00:04:52

the quality of the hallucination

00:04:55

is such that there is

00:04:57

a way of thinking about it

00:04:59

where you could say

00:05:01

this is an acoustical hologram of the interior

00:05:04

of their body.

00:05:05

I don’t say that.

00:05:06

I just say, my goodness, isn’t it strange that I seem to be able to see the inside of the watermelon when I’m doing this.

00:05:17

Touch.

00:05:19

I’m not an aura man under ordinary circumstances.

00:05:24

I’m not sensitive to these things that

00:05:26

you have to be sensitive to if you have to be sensitive to something I don’t

00:05:30

know that’s not for me because I’m basically insensitive but nevertheless

00:05:37

there do seem to be qualities of density

00:05:45

to the energy around the body.

00:05:47

And I suppose,

00:05:48

see, I’m not really an experimentalist

00:05:51

in these areas.

00:05:52

Like, I don’t immediately grab somebody

00:05:54

and start kneading them

00:05:56

and working them over.

00:05:58

I tend to just sit and watch.

00:06:00

But I do see all these possibilities.

00:06:16

Sound has such, I mean, sound does pierce, you know, non-dense objects and return an echo. And we may have neurological processing capacity that we’re unaware of or that is ordinarily suppressed. For instance,

00:06:27

I am very able, I have quite a good ability to navigate in darkness. I always have been

00:06:36

able to do this. It doesn’t seem that strange to me. I mean, I’m pretty good at it to the

00:06:41

point where there have been times in the Amazon when I’ve gone for water at night and literally forgotten to take the flashlight and gotten there and gotten halfway back before I noticed that, you know, and quite keyed up that I had the sense that

00:07:07

I’ve never heard anybody talk about was a kind of geometric sense that told me

00:07:13

the shortest distance between any two points in terms of energy expenditure it

00:07:21

was something which I could see that aboriginal people would just absolutely have to have

00:07:26

it’s a whole thing about following the edges of ridges

00:07:30

and never descending unless you have to

00:07:34

and always keeping to the high ground

00:07:37

and my mind would just tell me this stuff

00:07:39

draw these lines through space

00:07:42

the fact that ayahuasca,

00:07:46

which makes possible, you know,

00:07:48

this visual language

00:07:50

that seems to me the evolutionary compass

00:07:53

for language and culture,

00:07:55

the fact that the compounds which allow that

00:07:58

occur in the ordinary brain

00:08:01

suggests, you know,

00:08:03

that we could be as much

00:08:05

as close as a one gene

00:08:07

mutation away

00:08:09

from different styles

00:08:11

of neural processing.

00:08:14

And, you know, we don’t know to what

00:08:15

degree technology

00:08:17

pushes these things around. Did the

00:08:19

people of manuscript culture

00:08:21

have the same

00:08:23

serotonin ratios as we have.

00:08:27

How much, to what degree is culture a chemical feedback mechanism operating on us as a species?

00:08:37

I mean, we’re like fish trying to discover water.

00:08:40

These are fairly subtle issues.

00:08:41

water. These are fairly subtle issues

00:08:44

but the payoff is

00:08:45

being able to design our way

00:08:48

toward a more humane

00:08:49

culture because

00:08:51

what the psychedelics are teaching

00:08:54

on one level I think

00:08:55

is that we are

00:08:58

that our prison

00:09:00

and our palace is

00:09:02

language and that

00:09:04

today we have just allowed it to grow like Topsy,

00:09:09

because it was like an unconscious function.

00:09:11

But it no longer need be an unconscious function.

00:09:15

After all, we are now writing languages like crazy for computers,

00:09:20

defining for them what concepts they can and can’t think,

00:09:24

defining for them what concepts they can and can’t think what forms of logic, what algebras shall and shall not be permitted

00:09:30

we need to also think about

00:09:33

taking control of the design process of language

00:09:39

up to this point the only people who have gotten onto this principle

00:09:44

have been fascists of one sort or another, either Joseph Goebbels and his crowd or advertising weasels or people like that.

00:10:07

victim of the linguistic agenda of those cliques. You know, it’s like the Bob Dylan song,

00:10:14

the strong men make the rules for the wise men and the fools. Well, if the rules are syntactical rules, then nobody even realizes they’ve been hijacked and held up. It’s just that, you know,

00:10:20

you can’t think any other way, so why do you have this itch that you can’t seem to ever scratch?

00:10:28

Well, it’s because it’s freedom calling out to you from the unconscious.

00:10:34

I don’t really talk about all this with any sense of urgency.

00:10:40

One of the issues that sometimes comes up,

00:10:44

or often comes up in these groups

00:10:45

is, you know, am I saying it’s all okay? Is it all okay? Is there a political agenda?

00:10:53

What should be done? And, you know, it was Mahatma Gandhi who said, what you do has very little importance

00:11:05

and it’s very important that you do it.

00:11:09

And I think that’s how we have to act.

00:11:12

We have to each choose a small area

00:11:15

and then act in that limited area

00:11:19

with all the existential commitment we can muster,

00:11:23

but not with anxiety

00:11:25

you know, anxiety

00:11:27

the Chinese Taoist alchemist said

00:11:32

worry is preposterous

00:11:35

worry is preposterous

00:11:37

you don’t know enough to worry

00:11:40

you know, do liver cells worry

00:11:44

do skin cells worry do skin cells worry it’s just a complete waste of metabolic

00:11:49

energy the better thing is to function well in place and then to wonder you know wonder is sort

00:11:57

of worry without animal uh anxiety but it’s living in the light of non-closure.

00:12:05

That, you know, we’re not going to get this thing

00:12:08

wrestled into a box.

00:12:11

Not positivism, not Islam,

00:12:15

not the Kabbalah, no, no.

00:12:17

All these things are very good tries,

00:12:21

nice efforts.

00:12:22

We set them on their pedestals in a long row in the

00:12:26

museum of no ethic

00:12:28

good tries

00:12:29

but

00:12:31

it isn’t in that

00:12:34

it’s in the moment

00:12:35

in the recapturing of

00:12:38

direct experience

00:12:40

my publisher in

00:12:42

New York for this new line of books

00:12:44

he’s bringing out has coined the

00:12:46

battle cry, take back your mind. And I think that’s a pretty good way of putting it. Take back

00:12:55

your mind. Because we have transferred our loyalty to mythical structures, you know, structures about sexual politics,

00:13:06

about what a man is supposed to be,

00:13:08

what a woman is supposed to be,

00:13:11

how much money a person is supposed to have,

00:13:13

how much art they’re supposed to produce,

00:13:15

how many times a week they’re supposed to get laid.

00:13:17

We have all these images

00:13:19

that we’re supposed to live up to,

00:13:22

very complex,

00:13:24

all being sold down to us

00:13:27

through a culture

00:13:28

whose motivations are very murky

00:13:31

and highly suspect.

00:13:34

I mean, culture is not your friend.

00:13:38

You know, all these people

00:13:39

who want you to smell good

00:13:41

and drive the right car

00:13:43

and have your extra facial hair removed and all that.

00:13:47

These are not your friends, these people.

00:13:51

And it pays to remember that, you know,

00:13:59

that there’s a struggle on for loyalty,

00:14:03

that you are much

00:14:06

more, you look

00:14:08

much better to the

00:14:10

institutional structure

00:14:11

if you work hard

00:14:14

consume quietly

00:14:15

choose from the political

00:14:18

menu without a lot of

00:14:20

fuss and

00:14:21

that sort of thing

00:14:23

but in fact, you know,

00:14:26

this kind of business as usual

00:14:28

has led to the sort of lethal crisis we’re in.

00:14:32

Our real problem,

00:14:35

well, it’s two things

00:14:36

which are two sides of the same coin.

00:14:40

It’s ego

00:14:41

and an inability to emotionally connect with the true outline of the situation.

00:14:50

Because the true outline of the situation is fairly horrendous.

00:14:54

It’s that somewhere around 1945, or you name it, but that seems all right,

00:15:02

1945 or you name it but that seems alright

00:15:03

we began to

00:15:06

loot the future

00:15:08

as a strategy

00:15:10

for survival

00:15:11

as some kind of

00:15:14

ethical

00:15:15

norm was

00:15:18

shattered in the same

00:15:20

way that in

00:15:22

late

00:15:23

in early mercantile civilization, there was

00:15:27

this horrifying moment when even though

00:15:30

slavery had been dead for a thousand

00:15:32

years, they realized that if they brought

00:15:35

back this wholesale sale and transport

00:15:40

of human beings, they could make millions

00:15:42

in sugar. And it was like the heart of darkness reared up

00:15:47

and they went for it.

00:15:50

And our circumstance is somewhat similar.

00:15:57

We have embarked on a similar kind of descent into an ethical dark dimension

00:16:09

by looting the future.

00:16:13

And this is going on at a faster and faster rate.

00:16:16

I mean, this current situation in the Middle East,

00:16:20

much could be said about it,

00:16:22

but any moral justification seems preposterous i mean

00:16:29

what’s happening is eight percent of the world’s people use 35 percent of the world’s petroleum

00:16:35

and are ready to blow everybody off the map to keep it that way mean, this is nothing more than a manifestation of junkie psychology on a

00:16:46

mass scale. It’s, you know, we’re addicted, they’ve got it, we’re happy to pay for it, but if they

00:16:53

won’t sell it, we’ll break into their house and take it, because by know, it’s the culmination of the whole machine age metaphor.

00:17:12

I mean, this is the golem of Metropolis.

00:17:16

This is the robot mind run amok.

00:17:19

This is Frankenstein.

00:17:21

This is Brave New World. It’s a world where lethal, habitual activities

00:17:27

can nevertheless not be controlled.

00:17:32

And it’s a perfect example of a culture

00:17:36

with lockjaw of the mind.

00:17:41

I mean, we’re just going to march off the edge of a cliff, apparently.

00:17:46

Three days ago in the New York Times, the American estimates of casualties in the first 30 days of successfully invading Kuwait and Baghdad were published. 50,000 American casualties in the first 30 days if we win.

00:18:10

This is the number of people who died in the Vietnam War

00:18:13

over the whole stretch of the war.

00:18:15

Well, so then if you win means, you know,

00:18:20

standing in the middle of a sea of fire

00:18:22

with 550 million enraged Arabs

00:18:26

looking to cut you down.

00:18:29

It’s a complete misunderstanding.

00:18:35

And I mention it not only because

00:18:38

it looms large in our future.

00:18:40

I mean, I think, you know,

00:18:41

we’re arranging the deck chairs

00:18:42

of the Titanic sitting here talking about this.

00:18:46

It’s basically June of 1939, and everyone’s planning their summer vacation in the Catskills.

00:18:55

But it’s also an example of how these institutions can’t save themselves.

00:19:01

I mean, everybody knew in 1973 that this moment would come, that

00:19:06

policies needed to be put in place, a dollar a barrel tax on oil, some minor, minor thing.

00:19:12

But no, it’s just a mindset that is self-destructive. And, you know, the fundamentalists are in anticipation of the end of the world and so forth and so on.

00:19:29

There isn’t going to be any end of the world.

00:19:33

There’s no easy way out like that.

00:19:35

Even, and you’re hearing this from the prophet of 2012,

00:19:39

all of these fantasies, all of these infantile fantasies will be acted out. So, you know,

00:19:46

if you want your mini apocalypse, you know, you can have it and we can bomb Baghdad and

00:19:52

gas Tel Aviv and fire the oil sands and kill millions of people on both sides. And you

00:19:58

know what? It ain’t going to bring the guy from Galilee and it ain’t going to bring friendly

00:20:03

flying saucers from Marturus

00:20:05

all it’s just gonna bring is a deeper

00:20:08

bigger mess for the

00:20:09

human race to try and clean up

00:20:12

anybody who thinks that

00:20:14

you know you’re gonna save the world

00:20:16

by setting it on fire

00:20:17

is going to be sadly

00:20:19

disabused so

00:20:21

it’s a rare moment for the

00:20:26

collectivity to try to anchor itself in

00:20:31

larger visions. You know, the reason human

00:20:35

society is haunted by messiahs and

00:20:39

tin horn visionaries preaching on every

00:20:42

corner and people waving little books of different

00:20:46

colors is because there is no full development of the individual.

00:20:57

There’s this kind of arrested, prolonged adolescence.

00:21:02

And it’s created through institutions.

00:21:06

Institutions are a demonic force in human life

00:21:11

because they give permission for us to cease developing

00:21:16

and to put our loyalty behind some weird creed

00:21:22

that has been worked out usually by a bunch of guys wearing dresses.

00:21:26

And then they, you know, hand it down to the rest of us.

00:21:33

Anarchy and chaos, you know,

00:21:36

anarchy is always just,

00:21:39

that’s, you know, surely not, my dear fellow.

00:21:42

That’s so awful to contemplate.

00:21:44

But what it’s coming down to is a real make-or-break revelation on what is human nature.

00:21:55

You know, the French cartoonist Mobius asks the question in one of his books,

00:22:00

Is man good?

00:22:02

And he answers it, sufficiently seasoned and marinated, yes. But, you know,

00:22:10

we’re actually going to get the chance to answer this question because all barriers

00:22:17

to the expression of our will, our vision, our dream is falling away and are we some kind of

00:22:27

anti-life sadomasochistic suicidal contradiction

00:22:35

or can we break through

00:22:40

the millions of years of primate programming

00:22:44

and alpha male hierarchical dominance and so forth

00:22:48

to actually uncover the angelic force

00:22:53

that we glimpse within ourselves,

00:22:55

that we glimpse with high definition.

00:22:58

I mean, it’s really there.

00:23:00

If there is a demon in human nature,

00:23:02

there is surely equally an angel of equal power.

00:23:08

So then it’s just about breaking this free.

00:23:12

And I don’t think it can happen in the monkey body on the surface of this planet.

00:23:19

Somehow there has to be an act of surrender to our own nature and then concomitant with that

00:23:28

a kind of

00:23:30

a kind of making of a peace

00:23:35

with nature as it is

00:23:38

and I don’t know how to envision the future

00:23:41

in the past year you know

00:23:43

there’s been a lot of flack about virtual reality.

00:23:46

Does this hold any hope? And, you know, if we think of the virtual reality thing as a wave,

00:23:53

six months ago, I would say it was very up. Now enough people have done it to be disappointed,

00:24:00

and a bunch of people are saying, holy shit, you must be kidding.

00:24:05

This is going to save us?

00:24:07

Because it is hokey and crude and mechanistic

00:24:13

and, you know, surrounded by a clique of visionary weirdos

00:24:18

with a strange light in their eyes

00:24:20

that you probably wouldn’t want to leave alone with your chickens.

00:24:24

But nevertheless, I count myself

00:24:28

one of these people so

00:24:29

but

00:24:33

still there are some interesting ideas

00:24:40

the thing is there is going to be

00:24:43

some kind of fusion of technology, spirit, and mind.

00:24:49

I mean, the drugs of the future will be more like computers.

00:24:53

The computers of the future will be much more like drugs.

00:24:57

And we’re beginning to see this. inside a virtual reality rig and discover, you know, that it’s taken $200,000 worth of

00:25:07

equipment to make you think that you’re walking around in an unfurnished office of a third-rate

00:25:15

bureaucrat somewhere, it looks pretty grim.

00:25:19

But on the other hand, when Henry Ford built his automobile the main objection people had as to why it

00:25:26

would never catch on was there are no roads you know and he admitted this was a barrier

00:25:35

but clearly had a grander vision than everybody else he was talking to.

00:25:50

was talking to. Maybe this is where we should sort of lead the discussion and then leave it,

00:25:56

because I think this is the toughest issue for groups like this. This is where we sort of divide, and it’s not easy to hold it all together. And that is, you know, is the psychedelic agenda somehow the preservation, nurturing, caring for, and completion, and even reconstruction and recovery of what we have destroyed and ravaged and mauled to get where we are at this moment? Or are we stuff of a different nature?

00:26:28

And is our destiny to weave webs, you know,

00:26:32

that hang between the stars

00:26:34

and leave forever behind this small, wet,

00:26:38

humble, life-infested place

00:26:40

and go and live in the constructs of our imagination

00:26:44

forever in silicon and so forth and

00:26:48

so on and this is uh you know at least in my personality these things are almost equally

00:26:55

balanced i mean i feel very torn i don’t like the gnostic manichaean need to say, well, there must be a total split, that man and nature cannot coexist.

00:27:08

Man, for the sake of humanity and for the sake of nature, must go into our own dimension,

00:27:16

that the imagination is our cosmos and we are to inhabit it. I don’t know, I’d be interested in what people think.

00:27:26

Psychedelics go both ways.

00:27:28

There seem to be psychedelics that vote one way,

00:27:32

like the mushroom,

00:27:33

which has a vast, extraplanetary,

00:27:37

almost galactic-scale vision of interrelated intelligences

00:27:42

and information transfer between species

00:27:46

and a scale of time where the coming and going of suns

00:27:50

is just something which is going on.

00:27:53

Ayahuasca, on the other hand,

00:27:55

like claims you for your humanness,

00:27:59

pours you into your body and puts an oar in your hand

00:28:02

and sets you out on a black river in the middle of the night

00:28:05

to hunt catfish you know and you just feel the life human life what it is to be born to die

00:28:15

to have relationships with people to make and lose fortunes to have and lose dreams, all of this tremendously emotional stuff.

00:28:26

And then there’s a gradient in between.

00:28:30

So the psychedelic quest then, or the psychedelic life,

00:28:34

becomes ultimately a meditation on what is human nature.

00:28:39

You know, is it these titanic aspirations

00:28:42

to the techno-organo-mat metallo, immortal kind of existence?

00:28:50

Or is it some kind of Tao-like, Zen-like acceptance of place and position and destiny?

00:28:59

Or can it be both?

00:29:01

I mean, I have fantasies where I see a a world and i don’t know how we get there i

00:29:08

mean don’t ask me how we get there but a world of many many fewer people and people live basically

00:29:17

as people live 25 000 years ago basically naked except that everybody has a little thread like Brahmans have in India a little

00:29:28

thread that goes around your shoulder and around your waist and on this thread are you could get

00:29:33

maybe a couple of thousand small beads on this thread well each one is essentially a menu an

00:29:42

interface into a piece of software

00:29:45

which is hidden in hyperspace.

00:29:48

And by just moving this thread around and touching these beads,

00:29:52

you navigate into mental dimensions.

00:29:55

I mean, I can imagine the person of the future

00:29:59

would look like a rainforest primitive,

00:30:02

but when they close their eyes,

00:30:04

there would be menus hanging in space and you select and navigate and move through these

00:30:11

things but you know then there are issues different aspects of the same

00:30:17

issue of the human split with nature you know what do we do with the human body

00:30:22

the monkey body?

00:30:27

Is it a monkey animal body that drags us down into territoriality and violence?

00:30:31

Or is it somehow the glory and the purpose?

00:30:36

Where do you put the body

00:30:39

in a psychedelic value system?

00:30:43

If we’re talking about more and more

00:30:45

ephemeralization

00:30:47

depersonalization

00:30:49

decentralization

00:30:50

electronic

00:30:51

diffuseness

00:30:53

well then where is sexuality

00:30:55

in all that

00:30:57

still more where is biology

00:30:59

in all that

00:31:01

it’s very

00:31:03

we are the generation of people

00:31:06

who actually will take the reins

00:31:09

of the human dream

00:31:11

in a way that it’s never been taken before.

00:31:14

As recently as a single generation ago,

00:31:18

there were like insoluble problems

00:31:21

of a technological

00:31:23

and resource delivery type. valuable problems of a technological and

00:31:28

Resource delivery type now

00:31:36

It’s basically I think I began this weekend by saying this it’s a all dimension all

00:31:38

Problems have become problems of human psychology

00:31:46

Everything can be done. It’s all about how do you convince people in a democracy to pay for it,

00:31:50

how do you convince people in a, you know, whatever to follow along.

00:31:55

All problems have achieved a human dimension,

00:31:57

the state of the atmosphere.

00:31:59

It’s a human problem. You know, the temperature of the ocean, human problem.

00:32:04

Everything has to do with changing and

00:32:07

re-engineering the human mind now the real barrier to doing this as i see it is the cultural momentum

00:32:16

of the past and that’s a very nice and sanitized way of saying fundamentalist religion. Fundamentalist religion goes into a tizzy when you

00:32:29

start to, they would say, tamper with human nature. This is why drugs, abortion, homosexuality,

00:32:39

notice that what these things all have in common is they slightly seek to tweak or define human nature.

00:32:47

And this is extremely unwelcome.

00:32:50

But if we’re all God’s children,

00:32:53

how come we’ve rigged the earth with dynamite

00:32:56

and are flipping coins to see who gets to set it off?

00:33:01

We have been infected with the idea of original sin

00:33:09

and this is part of what keeps us infantile

00:33:13

we actually believe

00:33:15

I think every single one of us

00:33:17

at some level

00:33:18

that we are flawed

00:33:20

unfit

00:33:22

and this is paralyzing

00:33:25

because if we start talking about

00:33:29

redesigning human nature,

00:33:32

people say,

00:33:33

oh, wow, you know,

00:33:35

this is what Hitler was talking about.

00:33:37

As soon as you start redefining human nature,

00:33:40

you redefine it worse.

00:33:41

The beast returns.

00:33:44

It means, you know,

00:33:47

we have no faith whatsoever and It means, you know, we have no faith whatsoever,

00:33:51

and we believe, you know, that the given situation is the best of all possible worlds, is what that’s saying.

00:33:55

And I don’t believe that.

00:33:57

I agree there have been horrendous misapplications

00:34:00

of the wish to redesign human nature.

00:34:04

But on the other hand,

00:34:05

the style which lets it just develop

00:34:07

like an untended weedy lot

00:34:10

has produced a fairly weedy lot of leaders

00:34:14

with no great apparent commitment

00:34:19

to the salvation of the human race either.

00:34:22

What it comes down to is responsibility.

00:34:26

Politics without responsibility is fascism.

00:34:30

And politics responsibly practiced

00:34:34

is the only other option available.

00:34:39

All this goes back to this theme

00:34:42

of the primacy of experience,

00:34:46

recapturing the primary importance of yourself, first of all,

00:34:52

and then your affinity group, the people around you.

00:34:58

McLuhan said that this would happen naturally,

00:35:01

and from what I see over the past few years,

00:35:04

it seems to me this is so, that he called it electronic feudalism and said that the nation state would dissolve under the impact of electronic media. His timetable was a little too short. This is really a problem for prophets.

00:35:22

is really a problem for profits.

00:35:24

But he was perfectly right.

00:35:27

I mean, what happened in Tiananmen Square,

00:35:28

what happened in Eastern Europe,

00:35:32

was entirely the product of information technology just conveying images,

00:35:35

just conveying images from the West

00:35:38

dissolved the whole myth of Marxism,

00:35:41

which relied on a false view of reality

00:35:46

the thing is these images

00:35:47

are value neutral

00:35:49

they’re corrosive wherever they move

00:35:52

the same forces that

00:35:53

destroyed the communist party

00:35:55

in Eastern Europe will destroy

00:35:58

the ruling families

00:35:59

of the Arabian Peninsula with

00:36:01

equal ease because what it is

00:36:03

is it’s an anti-oligarchic virus

00:36:07

that has gotten loose in the language ocean of the planet I mean the thing that happened in

00:36:14

Tiananmen Square you could feel every government on earth heave a sigh of relief when they got

00:36:21

that under control because the nightmare of every government on earth

00:36:25

is a million peaceable people

00:36:28

assembled in the main square of your capital city

00:36:31

demanding that you pack up for Switzerland

00:36:33

I mean that is it

00:36:36

and if it happens

00:36:38

if it happens in Bucharest you go

00:36:41

if it happens in Tarania you go

00:36:43

if it happens in Washington you go nobody you go. If it happens in Washington, you go.

00:36:46

Nobody says no to

00:36:48

a million people in the streets.

00:36:50

That’s what the Shah of Iran found out.

00:36:52

I mean, he made a decree

00:36:54

that if more than three people

00:36:55

gathered in any place, they would be

00:36:58

shot dead. The next day

00:37:00

two and a half million people marched

00:37:01

screaming beneath his window for his

00:37:04

head. You look at a scene like that and say you know hey it’s time to retrench it’s time

00:37:10

to seriously cut a deal here well this is a long rambling answer to the question you know what is

00:37:20

to be done how can we make a difference and And I think the way that it’s to be done

00:37:27

is by empowering individual discourse

00:37:31

and recognizing the power of the individual.

00:37:37

Huge amounts of global civilization

00:37:39

are operating on automatic pilot.

00:37:42

You know, you think that if you were to walk

00:37:44

into the World Trade Center or the Pentagon

00:37:46

or NATO headquarters in Brussels

00:37:49

that there would be smart people furiously running things.

00:37:54

There are idiots everywhere

00:37:56

at every level of organization.

00:37:59

I mean, if you were to attend a cabinet meeting,

00:38:01

one guy will be asleep with his face in his plate.

00:38:04

I swear,

00:38:07

it makes no difference. And we, the little people down in the labyrinthine streets of

00:38:13

the city looking up at the castle as the great ones come and go, we believe that they’re

00:38:19

all about the fine business of humanity. But, you know, it’s just a fiction.

00:38:25

It’s an absurdity.

00:38:27

And to the degree that we proclaim it so,

00:38:31

the meme spreads

00:38:34

and the dream of the oligarchs,

00:38:38

the autocrats, the programmers,

00:38:41

is dissolved.

00:38:43

This is why the psychedelic thing

00:38:45

is so controversial

00:38:48

such political dynamite

00:38:50

because ultimately it dissolves

00:38:54

the linguistic structures that it finds pre-existing

00:38:58

whatever they are

00:38:59

I really believe this

00:39:01

talking to shamans in the Amazon

00:39:04

ultimately when you get to know them, they will tell you, you know, you think this is easy? You think because I am a wetoto, you think because I wear a gourd on my penis, I am it may be the last time because it’s so hard.

00:39:25

It’s so challenging to who I am.

00:39:28

It always is.

00:39:30

I mean, it’s a real edge.

00:39:31

It’s not an edge that you go and map and then the next time it’s not an edge.

00:39:38

It’s that every time you go, you discover this edge.

00:39:42

It’s the great gift, the great challenge,

00:39:45

the great miracle of human existence

00:39:48

is that within each one of us

00:39:50

there is this dimension

00:39:52

which we can choose to access

00:39:55

which is a constant challenge

00:39:59

to our existential modality.

00:40:02

You know, you don’t have to

00:40:03

mush your way up jungle rivers

00:40:05

and rip jewels from the eyes

00:40:07

of idols and

00:40:09

stuff like that. You can

00:40:12

on a Saturday evening

00:40:13

in the privacy of your own

00:40:15

living room

00:40:17

become your own Magellan.

00:40:21

And you are no

00:40:21

less courageous than Magellan.

00:40:24

Maybe Magellan is a bad example

00:40:26

since he didn’t make it all the way around.

00:40:29

Your own Columbus.

00:40:33

And this dimension of freedom

00:40:36

has always been 95%

00:40:39

of what the human experience was about

00:40:42

in terms of risk and thrills.

00:40:46

And religion is not, you know,

00:40:49

the mumblings of men wearing dresses.

00:40:52

It just isn’t.

00:40:53

Nor is it all of this philosophical mumbo-jumbo

00:40:57

that arises out of rational discourse

00:41:00

and brain specialization.

00:41:04

It’s that somehow part of the package

00:41:08

of being a living, thinking being

00:41:11

is that you get a universe inside of you.

00:41:16

You get a galaxy-sized object inside you

00:41:21

that you can access.

00:41:24

And there there are the mountains,

00:41:26

the rivers, the jungles,

00:41:28

the dynastic families,

00:41:30

the ruins, the planets,

00:41:31

the works of art, the poetry,

00:41:33

the sciences, the magics

00:41:36

of millions upon millions upon millions of worlds.

00:41:39

And this is apparently who we each are.

00:41:43

We’re a little bit of eternity sticking into three-dimensional space

00:41:49

and for some reason occupying time in a monkey body.

00:41:53

But when you turn your eyes then inward, you discover the birthright,

00:42:00

the existential facts out of which this particular existence emerged.

00:42:08

And, you know, without going dewy-eyed,

00:42:11

without lining up with all the religious people,

00:42:16

it’s more real than religion,

00:42:20

because it’s apparently rooted in biology.

00:42:22

And it’s a great secret.

00:42:24

A great secret and a great comfort

00:42:27

because it means, you know,

00:42:29

mystery didn’t die with the fall of Arthur

00:42:33

or the fall of Atlantis

00:42:35

or the fall of anything.

00:42:37

Mystery is alive in the moment,

00:42:40

in the here and now.

00:42:41

It just simply lies on the other side

00:42:44

of a barrier of courage.

00:42:46

And it isn’t even that high a barrier.

00:42:49

It just is a barrier high enough

00:42:51

to keep out the insincere

00:42:53

and the misdirected.

00:42:56

But for those who will claim it,

00:42:58

in the midst of the historical chaos

00:43:00

of the late 20th century,

00:43:02

they become the archaic pioneers.

00:43:07

They become the first people

00:43:09

to carry the Ouroboric serpent around

00:43:12

to its own tail

00:43:14

and to make a closure.

00:43:16

And to the degree that any one of us

00:43:19

has this connection back to the archaic in our life,

00:43:24

it makes where we have been make a lot more sense this connection back to the archaic in our life,

00:43:29

it makes where we have been make a lot more sense and it makes where we’re going seem a lot more inviting,

00:43:34

which it really is, I think.

00:43:38

Well, that’s all I have to say.

00:43:40

I think we can probably…

00:43:42

It’s a little early.

00:43:44

Does anybody have anything

00:43:45

they want to add? Yeah.

00:43:47

You’ve been talking about the ego a lot

00:43:50

and its dissolution and breaking through

00:43:51

the boundaries of it.

00:43:54

And it sometimes sounds

00:43:56

like ego has a pejorative connotation.

00:43:58

On the other hand, you’ve just been talking

00:44:00

very briefly about the fact

00:44:02

that it’s up to each of us

00:44:04

in our own unique individuation to claim what

00:44:08

can be claimed, and that even a small individual little ego can virtually change the world

00:44:15

if it has the right place to stand.

00:44:18

It seems like these…

00:44:19

So how do you balance these things?

00:44:21

Yeah, I just…

00:44:22

Really, the question is, what is the future of the ego as we know it? Say

00:44:27

post-2012, will the ego really be more of a group ego or a transformation of our ego

00:44:34

or is the ultimate goal to shed our egos completely and become some form of individuation which

00:44:40

we can’t even dream about at this point?

00:44:42

individuation which you can’t even dream about at this point

00:44:42

well you’re right

00:44:45

there’s a dynamic tension there

00:44:47

sometimes when this comes up

00:44:49

I answer it by saying

00:44:51

that you need an ego

00:44:54

if you didn’t have an ego

00:44:56

you wouldn’t know whose mouth

00:44:58

to put food in when you have dinner

00:45:00

with someone at a restaurant

00:45:01

so ego

00:45:04

is necessary to keep

00:45:05

straight whose orifices are

00:45:07

whose and

00:45:09

that’s the main function of ego

00:45:11

but

00:45:14

then you know there is

00:45:16

a deeper level to it

00:45:17

somehow the way I imagine

00:45:20

it is that

00:45:21

the ego is

00:45:23

the correct expression of ego

00:45:26

is when there is ego present,

00:45:31

but it is perceived as Tao.

00:45:35

In other words, Tao is this state

00:45:38

where you just go along

00:45:40

and somehow get along.

00:45:43

And ego is a state where you’re somehow pushing the river

00:45:47

and that’s how you get along

00:45:48

I think the ego of the future

00:45:52

will be much less possessive

00:45:55

and that it’s the possessiveness

00:45:58

the projection of the

00:46:00

domain

00:46:04

really of the ego outside of itself,

00:46:08

specifically the control of other people,

00:46:12

you know, sexual partners, children, parents.

00:46:18

The way I imagine this pastoral situation of 12 or 15,000 years ago to work

00:46:25

was people simply had group values

00:46:29

because the children were group-owned.

00:46:34

And that made such a tremendous difference

00:46:37

in how the society imaged itself.

00:46:40

People lived for the group,

00:46:44

and at the core of the group were the children

00:46:46

and people always put them first

00:46:49

so everyone identified with the children

00:46:54

everyone was willing to face risk

00:46:56

to preserve the core of the younger gene pool

00:47:01

and that that was what made the difference

00:47:04

this concern for male paternity is

00:47:07

really a poisonous factor and uh see the the when you look at primatology generally it’s pretty

00:47:20

clear that as a group of species primates do tend to male dominance that even the even the the apes

00:47:29

and the squirrel monkeys and the New World primates in the wild there’s usually an alpha male that’s

00:47:37

dominant so this symbiosis between human beings cattle cattle, and psychedelic plants that

00:47:46

allowed the feminine to emerge

00:47:48

was something that was emerging

00:47:50

against the grain

00:47:52

of primate organization.

00:47:54

So really what has happened is we

00:47:56

have returned to a more

00:47:58

animal kind of existence. We are

00:48:00

more like beasts

00:48:02

than the people of

00:48:03

10,000 to 15,000 years ago, because they were using

00:48:08

psychedelics to artificially, you could say, or pharmacologically inflate feminine values.

00:48:18

And this allowed them to become civilized people. I mean, I have somewhat elaborate theory about this,

00:48:26

but I think that women are responsible for the emergence of language

00:48:31

because I think that the division of labor that we know went on very early

00:48:38

because of the male’s larger body size in the upper half of the body,

00:48:42

that the males tended to specialize toward hunting.

00:48:46

Hunting puts a premium on physical strength

00:48:49

and stoicism,

00:48:52

meaning sitting a long time with your mouth shut.

00:48:55

And then you have a limited number of commands.

00:48:59

The women and bladder control is very important

00:49:04

where women fail that test.

00:49:07

So then what the women were doing was they were specialized as gatherers

00:49:13

of plants and roots and insects and stuff like that.

00:49:16

Well, this is a tremendous pressure to develop descriptive taxonomy

00:49:22

because gathering is the art of descriptive taxonomy. Because gathering is the art of descriptive taxonomy.

00:49:27

You want to know that you want, you know,

00:49:30

the little bulbous root with the yellow flowers

00:49:34

that grows down between the shattered granite boulders near the creek.

00:49:38

It’s all language, language, language.

00:49:41

And the pressure is life and death.

00:49:47

If you eat the wrong plant, you become very sick, or you abort your fetus, or you die. So those who were well able to describe the objects

00:49:55

of the hunting gathering, of the gathering side of the economy, were quickly outbred those who weren’t. And language may have even been a kind of secret ability of women at some point.

00:50:10

You see, psilocybin synergizes language-like bursts of activity

00:50:16

and may have been the thing which set it over.

00:50:21

But what happened in this woman situation with language is a good example of what often

00:50:27

happens with cultural innovation. The women possessed all this knowledge about hunting,

00:50:33

about the gathering of plants and the magical use and preparation of plants, but at a certain point, the database became so huge that it underwent a collapse conceptually.

00:50:49

And some brilliant woman realized, we don’t have to know about 600 plants and all these locations and seasonal variations and all this.

00:51:00

We just have to concentrate on five plants and really learn all about those plants

00:51:07

and then we can dispense with all this stuff

00:51:09

and this was probably because in the nomadic cycle

00:51:12

they would encounter their own middens from the year before

00:51:16

and there there would be cereal grains sprouted

00:51:19

and you quickly put it together

00:51:21

but the specialization represented by agriculture,

00:51:25

that was the beginning of the end, as far as I’m concerned.

00:51:29

Because at that point, there was retraction away from nature.

00:51:35

It was no longer about letting nature guide you

00:51:38

to gather and find what you needed.

00:51:42

It was a kind of paranoid,

00:51:47

a kind of rip-off attitude.

00:51:48

It was, you know,

00:51:52

let us exploit these five plants.

00:51:53

This means tilling the ground.

00:51:56

It means the end of nomadism because now we’re going to settle in one place

00:51:59

and we’re going to redirect the flow of water

00:52:01

and we’re going to become agriculturalists.

00:52:05

It’s an entirely different psychology.

00:52:08

Weston Labar said that psychedelic shamanism died

00:52:13

when it became important to get up in the morning

00:52:17

and go out and hoe the corn.

00:52:19

And then people replaced the psychedelic gods

00:52:23

with the gods of wheat and corn.

00:52:26

The Tammuz, the corn god of ancient Babylon, then appears.

00:52:32

And gods of agriculture and male dominance go hand in hand.

00:52:37

The previous religion at the edge of the high Neolithic

00:52:41

was this religion of the great horned goddess.

00:52:46

edge of the high neolithic was this religion of the great horned goddess and it was a religion of nomadic pastoralism orgiastic sexual you know activity psychedelic drugs and

00:52:56

and tremendous emphasis on cattle cattle were the great bridge to all these concepts. We start out as a baboon-like creature

00:53:06

wandering behind these herds of ungulate cattle.

00:53:10

I’ve seen baboons do this in Kenya,

00:53:14

flipping over cow pies,

00:53:16

looking for carrion beetle grubs as a source of fat and protein.

00:53:22

But then, you know, we went from predation on carrion the kills of

00:53:28

larger animals to slowly actually domesticating these things and the milk

00:53:34

and the blood and the manure and the meat and the mushroom would all be seen

00:53:43

to be things which came quite naturally from

00:53:46

the cow the cow was like the supreme feminine symbol and all over North

00:53:54

Africa and the ancient Middle East you get this paleolithic late paleolithic

00:54:00

great horned goddess the cattle religion and the emergence of consciousness

00:54:05

seemed to go

00:54:06

hand in hand

00:54:09

one time I was

00:54:11

waiting for a load of

00:54:13

mushrooms to come on

00:54:15

and

00:54:16

it was very

00:54:19

strong, I had sort of

00:54:21

miscalculated and I had gotten

00:54:23

too much and I could see this thing

00:54:25

just coming at me, huge force. And, uh, I heard a voice. It was actually the Swiss air stewardess

00:54:35

from Frederico Fellini’s eight and a half, but it was that voice. And she said, uh,

00:54:44

they say it helps to lay down cowboy

00:54:47

and I was amused

00:54:52

at the time or later

00:54:54

when I had time to be amused

00:54:55

I was amused

00:54:56

but then I realized

00:54:58

this mode of address

00:55:00

cowboy

00:55:01

is probably typical of the mushroom

00:55:04

because for most 95% of its

00:55:07

existence most of what it’s dealt with are cowboys and cowgirls because these

00:55:12

are the people who follow along behind the cows these are the people who

00:55:16

invented astrology from watching the stars and many people myself included

00:55:22

have reported the experience of looking at the stars stoned on psilocybin

00:55:27

and having the mushroom supply dotted lines between the constellations.

00:55:32

There it is, there’s the map.

00:55:37

Yes, pastoralists, herders, they invented the calendar from watching the horizon

00:55:46

and you know what we looked at

00:55:48

last night was partially a calendar

00:55:50

it’s very interesting

00:55:52

if you look, if you want a meditation

00:55:54

on shamanism

00:55:56

politics, time

00:55:58

and so forth

00:55:59

look at hexagram 49

00:56:02

in the I Ching

00:56:03

which is revolution.

00:56:06

And you might go to this

00:56:07

expecting a treatise on political upheaval.

00:56:11

And it says instead,

00:56:13

the magician is a calendar maker.

00:56:17

He measures the seasons and sets them right.

00:56:20

And it’s this idea of reconstruction of time. the message that i get out of the psychedelics

00:56:29

is that that we need to reframe the largest frames in our linguistic cosmology means reformation of

00:56:40

the calendar reformation of language that we cannot evolve any faster

00:56:47

than the languages that we are imprisoned within.

00:56:50

We are linguistic creatures somehow.

00:56:54

And so we need strategies,

00:56:58

catalysts, enzymes,

00:57:02

whatever it is, practices,

00:57:04

that force the evolution of language

00:57:07

along conscious lines.

00:57:09

If we don’t do this,

00:57:11

the old styles of thinking,

00:57:13

the old concepts,

00:57:14

are just going to pull us down.

00:57:17

Well, to my mind,

00:57:19

this makes psychedelics central

00:57:21

to any political reconstruction

00:57:24

because psychedelics are the only force in nature

00:57:28

that actually dissolves linguistic structure,

00:57:32

lets the mechanics of syntax be visible,

00:57:36

allows the possibility for the introduction,

00:57:39

rapid introduction and spread of new concepts,

00:57:43

gives permission for new ways of seeing.

00:57:48

And this is what we have to do.

00:57:49

We have to change our minds.

00:57:52

Well, that’s it.

00:57:54

Thank you very much.

00:57:55

I enjoyed this.

00:57:58

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon,

00:58:00

where people are changing their lives

00:58:02

one thought at a time.

00:58:05

We have to change our minds. so says the Bard McKenna. And if that isn’t an open-ended statement,

00:58:13

then I don’t know what is. And if I can get my act together, well, that is the very topic that

00:58:19

I plan to cover in my next podcast. But for today, I’m going to have to keep this short,

00:58:24

because for the last several days,

00:58:27

I’ve been fighting a head cold and a sore throat.

00:58:29

So I’m not inclined to do much more talking right now.

00:58:33

So I’ll just leave you with a brief soundbite

00:58:36

from today’s podcast.

00:58:38

And hopefully you’re going to give this some serious thought.

00:58:43

It’s a rare moment for the collectivity

00:58:47

to try to anchor itself in larger visions.

00:58:54

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

00:58:59

Be well, my friends.