517 - Our Cyberspiritual Future Part 3

Program Notes §

https://www.patreon.com/lorenzohagerty

Guest speaker: Terence McKenna

[NOTE: All quotations are by Terence McKenna.]

“The only path in to the supernormal that I’ve found are the psychedelics. Everywhere else I found chicanery and fraud.”

“It’s fun to be a free person. It’s fun to not depend upon an institution, an ideology, an other person, a place, a time. And it’s very hard to sell this form of fun. People are afraid. People have been dis-empowered, I think, through the process of juvenilization.”

“Millions and millions of people live larval, low-awareness lives warehoused in the burbs, plugged in to Costco and the tele. And as long as the magazine subscriptions stay subscribed and the credit cards continue to be serviced the illusion that there is life happening here is allowed to continue.”

“I think that every single one of us should be learning how to expand our communications skills.”

“It’s not about rejecting the media or the marketplace. It’s about changing your relationship to it. Do not consume. Produce! … Inject your own art.”

“I don’t believe alien spaceships are visiting Earth to pull our chestnuts out of the fire, or to do anything much else of interest, but I do think there is an alien presence. It’s non-material. You contact it in the psychedelic experience… . Its nature is informational.”

“What the alien needs to manifest among us is a suitable landing zone.”

“In a sense, the Internet is a net to catch an alien.”

“In other words, the imagination is like a field of data that is at the Bell level of connectivity in the quantum mechanical universe.”

“Physically, we are alone, physically. But in the imagination we’re surrounded by distant friends, and their whisperings are our science, our mathematics, our religions, our culture.”

“We have exhausted the exterior world, and yet the interior world beats like an enormous ocean. And what is ordinary, historical consciousness but a tiny island protruding above that ocean.”

“There was a period in my life where I formed my taste by saying I liked what I didn’t like.”

“I think the worst setting for taking drugs is complex social environments, especially public social environments.”

“I believe in large doses … rarely.”

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516 - Our Cyberspiritual Future Part 2

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518 - Our Cyberspiritual Future Part 4

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Transcript §

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Greetings from cyberdelic space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the psychedelic

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salon.

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And I’m very pleased today to begin by thanking some of our fellow salonners who have made donations that are going to be used to keep the salon rolling next year as we begin our Psychedelic Salon 2.0 adventure. Scott M., Spendon P., David A., Michael N., Todd C., Jamie B., and Frank N.,

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who not only made a donation to the salon, he also made recordings of this year’s Polanke Norte lectures.

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To be honest, when I heard that Pez wasn’t going to be able to make it to the burn this year,

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well, I was kind of afraid to ask if anybody would be picking up the slack of recording the talks,

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because, well, that’s a big job, and it’s very thankless in that hot situation they’re involved in.

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But thanks to Camp Soft Landing and the wonderful people involved in that camp,

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the Planque Norte lectures were once again featured on the playa at Burning Man.

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And thanks to Frank N., we’re going to get to hear them here in the salon.

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And yes, this means that I’ll probably be doubling up on these podcasts a bit between now and March,

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so that I can squeeze in the Planque Norte talks, along with the as-yet-unheard Terrence McKenna talks.

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And speaking of Terrence, let’s join him right now for the third session

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of his August 1997 workshop,

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which he titled,

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Our Cyber Spiritual Future.

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Be susceptible to this.

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We should be going the way out

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of this kind of foolishness.

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The true mysteries of this kind of foolishness. The true mysteries of this world

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do not require your connivance or belief

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in order to exist.

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They’re able to exist quite independently, thank you,

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whether you believe in them or not.

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On the other hand, all forms of fraud and duplicity

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require the cooperation of the mark. That’s you

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if you’re buying into these things. You know, the pocket is picked because the mark is asleep. The

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pockmarked crown can be passed off as a beauty because the mark is preconditioned to want to

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make the sale

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we

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psychedelics should liberate

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people from the tyranny

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of

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these projections

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from the unconscious

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and it’s very fascinating

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to me to

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see how the defenders of these strange points of view,

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how phobic they are of psychedelics.

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They understand that psychedelics are a blowtorch to their ice cube.

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They don’t want to get near it.

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They used to have the excuse that even though they were going to spend a lifetime

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criticizing psychedelics, they couldn’t invest six hours to find out what it was about. Well,

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so then we brought them DMT, which lasts five minutes. So now the new excuse is, well,

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as a professional person, I don’t choose to break the law

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fine here’s some alpha-salvinorine

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it’s unscheduled it lasts five minutes

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it’ll cut your head off

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will you do it?

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and they say well no I have a heart murmur

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or I have an appointment in 20 minutes

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there is absolute

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terror to confront the reality of what this represents. And it’s interesting who’s afraid.

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Scientists are afraid. They say, well, I would lose my objectivity and we don’t do it like

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that. I’m the observer, not the experiment. And we like to have things kind of off where

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we can handle them.

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So scientists don’t want to do it.

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They sense it would destroy their ontology.

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And neither do the enthusiasts of the unanchored weird.

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They don’t want to do it either, because they say it rends your aura

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and, you know, redistributes your chi in unpleasant ways and anyway

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Babaji said not to and on and on and on and on and on so it’s you know we are

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apparently that statistically favored few that quite by chance, I suppose, in our lives

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managed to thread our way between the cilia and sharbdus

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of these, my mind’s already made up,

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don’t confuse me with facts, positions.

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with facts, positions.

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The only path in to the supernormal that I found are the psychedelics.

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Everywhere else I found chicanery and fraud.

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I mean, I went to India,

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I visited some of the greats,

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and I just found, you know,

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the eagerness with which they sought to determine

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whether you had any acid with you

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was a strong indicator of the power of their own spiritual methods, you know.

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Mainly they wanted to score.

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It’s a sobering thing to have the teacher

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you came 10,000 miles

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to see

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try to get you to

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cut loose three hits

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I don’t know

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it’s fun

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to be a free person

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it’s fun to

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not depend on an institution,

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an ideology,

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and the other person,

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a place,

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a time.

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And it’s very hard to sell this form of fun.

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People are afraid.

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People have been disempowered,

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I think, through the process of juvenileization

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that we described last night.

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People define themselves as frightened children.

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They want methods, gurus, partners,

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safe havens, stipends, sabbaticals.

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They just want all these things

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to make it easier for themselves,

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but they don’t make them easier for you.

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If you have all that,

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you will be soft and mushy

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beyond reclamation.

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You know, you will contribute nothing

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to the human adventure.

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You don’t want to just be a placeholder.

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There’s no glory in being able to say, yeah, the

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20th century, yeah, I lived through it, contributed nothing, said nothing, had nothing to say about it,

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but I lived through it. A lot of people didn’t live through it. You might consider that you’re

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standing in their shoes and act out of a commitment to

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them and what they might have achieved you know I think about I think often

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strangely enough about Anton Verbehrn who’s one of the great modernists of

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European music Verbehrn was killed in the streets of Vienna in 1945 by an American GI for stealing a loaf of bread.

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This is what happened to European culture in the aftermath of the Second World War.

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We have been incredibly privileged in the 20th century.

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Europe has been smashed to dust twice in the 20th century. Europe has been smashed to dust twice in the 20th century. All its dreams, all its

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assumptions, all its hopes cast into the frying pan. We had nothing like that. And again, I think

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it permits an enormous amount of foolishness in our society and an unwillingness

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to

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to take things seriously

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really

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these things are not

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playthings

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fascism, futurism

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communism

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these things can ignite

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and consume whole societies

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that means human lives.

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If we’re really serious about new paradigms,

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I think we have to go to the bedrock of experience.

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It’s not about rearranging or reshuffling the ideological deck.

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That’s why the psychedelic experience is such a potentially liberating

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and revivifying thing

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because it is an experience

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and we have somehow traded out

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our experience over the past several hundred years.

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You know, it’s a truism

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that television is geared at the 12-year-old mind.

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It’s probably a generous truism.

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Millions and millions of people live larval, low-awareness lives,

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warehoused in the burbs plugged into Costco and the telly

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and as long as the magazine subscriptions

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stay subscribed

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and the credit cards continue to be serviced

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the illusion that there is life happening here

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is allowed to continue

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I know that you’re testifying I have a question and I’ll get into why life happening here is allowed to continue.

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I know that you’ve touched upon this.

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I have a question, and I’ll get into why I’m asking the question.

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It’s hard to focus my thoughts at the moment because you’re moving so fast through so many different areas

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that my ideas are slipping away as I’m trying to find a way to express them.

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But I guess this topic right now begs this question,

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is that we’re created in equal

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all of us with an equal amount of enlightenment,

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all of us with an equal genetic

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ability, and if you look

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at the world as an organism, as some people might do,

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and you look at an ant colony

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and there are certain functions within

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different types of

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beings within that same

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society that have different roles

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and do different things, and you look at the human

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culture

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that perhaps there’s

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an organism that perhaps

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there is a function

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for

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those people that are in the suburbs

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doing those things, perhaps that

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there’s only a certain amount of capacity

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within those people and with various

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people of different capacities,

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and certain people that are going to find their way to enlightenment

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are perhaps more able on other levels.

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Not everyone’s endowed with the same amount of ability to get there in the first place.

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And I was curious what you thought about that kind of theory,

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because I know the sort of co-evolution of man and mushroom and sort of bringing man to another

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enlightened state

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through the co-evolution of those two

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together

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perhaps there were certain

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areas that were left behind or certain

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people that maybe are less

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affected by that co-evolution or different

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cultures and within the world culture

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and

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I marvel at i can’t

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find an explanation myself for why certain people just refuse to open their minds at any point

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there’s no way to penetrate and perhaps because that mind isn’t there well this is this thing

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where i say culture is not your friend and those people being warehoused and

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hooked up to the TV and the

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burbs they’re the people

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who didn’t find this out

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in time

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and now our main

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lining culture and it is

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in terms of cutting

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your social effectiveness

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it’s as effective as heroin

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so but I don’t think it’s always been like this.

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I think society has, culture has always been somewhat unfriendly to the individual,

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but it’s only within the 20th century that all this has been understood explicitly,

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and some people have set out to use these facts against the rest of us.

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Modern advertising.

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I mean, modern advertising, advertising, the impulse of advertising is to inform you of what is available in the marketplace.

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Seems a harmless and reasonable thing.

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You should know what is available in the marketplace.

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But then comes the psychology

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of advertising and then this is to pick your pocket and make you buy things whether you need

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them or not and it does it by um first of all inculcating in you a feeling of helplessness

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and inferiority unless you drive this car wear these shoes this cologne so it you

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diminish the customer in order to aggrandize the product but notice that the customer is a human

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being the product is a thing this begins to look like a crime against humanity modern marketing travels on

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ungratified desire

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show people that

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even if you buy the $12,000 car

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the $75,000 car would make you so much happier and

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of course true ecstasy is the two hundred thousand dollar car so there’s no satisfaction no uh

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limit and at the tail end of this process is completely unexamined policies

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of resource extraction

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abuse

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of the environment

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and we tend to think

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that you can’t do it any other way

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that this vast consumer

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economy is the only

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way a modern civilization

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could possibly function

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but in fact it’s a self-limiting potlatch of some

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sort you all know what a potlatch is a potlatch is among the northwest coast indians it’s an

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interesting approach to consumerism among the northwest coast indians gift giving is a big deal but at

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the potlatch is when you you can give so

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much gifts that you can burn them this

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is considered the highest form of

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consumerism among the Haida and these

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people is to burn all the physical goods

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and it’s a form of display.

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I mean, these things cost money

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and are fine objects,

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but you destroy them

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to prove essentially

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how much money and power you have.

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Well, we’re in that situation.

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Everything is disposable.

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Everything is throwaway.

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everything is disposable everything is throw away

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and growing away from this

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is very difficult

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I mean it essentially requires

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responsibility and integrity

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which is the last thing anybody wants to hear

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they want to hear that

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chelated enzymes thing anybody wants to hear you know they want to hear that I don’t know

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chelated enzymes

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or a particular form of therapy

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or darshan

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with guru ma

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or something else is going to make it all

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alright no just

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individual moral

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responsibility is the

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is the basis for intelligent

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existence and this should be obvious to most people except that the cacophony Responsibility is the basis for intelligent existence.

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And this should be obvious to most people,

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except that the cacophony of the marketplace

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is making it so hard to figure this out.

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Did you? Yeah.

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I’m interested in how a lot of the things that you’ve been discussing

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relate to what you allude to as living in the imagination.

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You know, talking about cultural limitations

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makes me think about limited patterns of perception

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and what psychedelics seem to help you do is decondition you

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from those previous limited patterns of perception,

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give you a glimpse of what is possible,

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although if you try too quickly to define it.

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You fail the

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intelligence test, as you say,

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because what is trying to help

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you to glimpse is what is

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beyond another level

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of limitation.

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And culture can be

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like a group mind that you

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buy into that’s

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a very limited pattern of thinking.

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Technologies, cutting-edge technologies like nanotechnology,

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seem to be moving in the direction of living in the imagination.

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That is, what previously is only envisioned is now materialized.

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And again, psychedelics seem to intimate that. The experience itself seems to point towards what is previously thought of as beyond the possible,

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as now an open towards envisioning that possibility.

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And again, you allude to a future vision

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of living in the imagination

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the union of spirit and matter

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and

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that’s kind of the common theme

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that I pick up

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with a lot of the things that are being discussed

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here and I’m curious

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what your

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concepts are

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well the reason I think psychedelics are an antidote

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to this commodification and juvenileization

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is because they not only dissolve boundaries,

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but they also show you inner worth.

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In other words, they show you that you,

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who you previously dismissed,

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have more beauty in your head

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than Cartier’s and Tiffany’s

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and all the rest of it put together.

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So you don’t need to go to Henry Winston

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or Harry Winston or Cartier’s.

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You have inner worth.

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You don’t need a car, a house of great expense.

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And then the other thing is

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these technologies are allowing us

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to vivify the imagination

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and to make it very real.

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In fact, to make it something we can walk into.

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I tried it out on my staff group

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and it didn’t seem to get very far, but I really think every single one of us should be learning how to expand our communication skills.

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That this is our task for the rest of our lives, to learn how to communicate with each other, communicate verbally by touch but also

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accept these technologies I’ve spent the last six weeks learning how to

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three-dimensionally model objects and then animate them texture map them color

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them because I’ve spent my whole life clawing the air and raving about hallucinations and no one

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could ever see what I meant but if I will cancel all engagements and work at my terminal for six

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months I’ll come back with 30 seconds of film that I’ll just say that’s that’s my best shot

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to the limit of my present acquisition of skills.

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Here’s what I’m seeing.

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So, you know, it’s not about rejecting the media

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or the marketplace.

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It’s about changing your relationship to it.

00:20:57 ► §

Do not consume.

00:20:59 ► §

Produce.

00:21:01 ► §

Into the vacuum of the producer-consumer relationship,

00:21:06 ► §

inject your own art.

00:21:09 ► §

Make sure that you are producing, not consuming.

00:21:13 ► §

Because the one stultifies, marginalizes,

00:21:17 ► §

and creates a juvenile attitude,

00:21:23 ► §

and the producing actually raises

00:21:26 ► §

the sum total of consciousness

00:21:29 ► §

of the human species

00:21:31 ► §

what we’re

00:21:33 ► §

debating and talking about now

00:21:35 ► §

myself and my

00:21:37 ► §

friends is trying to get

00:21:39 ► §

someone to endow

00:21:41 ► §

a prize

00:21:42 ► §

that we would sneak onto the internet

00:21:46 ► §

in the first stage

00:21:48 ► §

as the psychedelic simulation prize.

00:21:53 ► §

In other words,

00:21:54 ► §

a $5,000 prize awarded once a year,

00:21:59 ► §

a small statue of a smiling man,

00:22:02 ► §

we’ll call it the Tim.

00:22:04 ► §

You can win the Tim

00:22:06 ► §

for producing

00:22:08 ► §

the best

00:22:10 ► §

three dimensional animation

00:22:11 ► §

of a mental landscape

00:22:14 ► §

well probably

00:22:16 ► §

from now till 2000

00:22:17 ► §

these will simply be videos

00:22:20 ► §

quick time movies

00:22:21 ► §

but sometime beyond 2000

00:22:23 ► §

these will become VRML coded virtual realities

00:22:29 ► §

and people will begin to walk into them.

00:22:34 ► §

And we’ll still call it the prize for psychedelic simulation,

00:22:40 ► §

but notice that once you can walk around inside these things,

00:22:44 ► §

they become much more present.

00:22:47 ► §

And, you know, one of the things we’ve talked about over the past week is

00:22:53 ► §

I don’t believe alien spaceships are visiting Earth

00:23:00 ► §

to pull our chestnuts out of the fire or to do anything else of much interest but i do think

00:23:07 ► §

there is an alien presence uh it’s non-material you contact it in the psychedelic experience

00:23:15 ► §

it’s non-material well then what is the nature of the alien presence well its nature is informational it is made of information well you know how in all

00:23:29 ► §

all flying saucer cults and all b movies of the 50s there’s always the the awareness of the

00:23:37 ► §

possibility of contact and then there is the landing zone has to be created.

00:23:50 ► §

And in Close Encounters, it was Devil’s Tower out in Wyoming.

00:23:54 ► §

This seems to be part of the archetype of the alien.

00:24:00 ► §

What the alien needs to manifest among us is a suitable landing zone.

00:24:04 ► §

And people say, well, the Nazca Lines, that was the landing zone.

00:24:06 ► §

That’s pretty lame. I mean, I won’t even bother to deconstruct it

00:24:08 ► §

surely if you can come from Zenebel Ganubi

00:24:12 ► §

you don’t need airport running lights

00:24:15 ► §

to be waiting for you when you get here

00:24:17 ► §

so the landing zone

00:24:21 ► §

and I’m beginning to think that

00:24:24 ► §

in a sense,

00:24:26 ► §

the Internet is a net to catch an alien.

00:24:33 ► §

And the way you catch the alien

00:24:35 ► §

is by writing the weirdest code you think you can think of

00:24:41 ► §

and integrating it into all the other weird codes you can find.

00:24:46 ► §

Let’s set out to build a virtual reality as alien as we can possibly make it.

00:24:53 ► §

And if we connect our psychedelically empowered imagination to our coding fingers,

00:25:02 ► §

we will discover when the chore is done

00:25:05 ► §

that the thing we have created is so alien

00:25:08 ► §

that it could only be the alien

00:25:12 ► §

and that in fact the contact is now underway

00:25:16 ► §

because where the alien is

00:25:18 ► §

is in some non-local bell sphere

00:25:21 ► §

of universally accessible information.

00:25:25 ► §

In other words, the imagination is like a field of data

00:25:29 ► §

that is at the bell level of connectivity

00:25:33 ► §

in the quantum mechanical universe.

00:25:37 ► §

And there are aliens somewhere, galaxies away,

00:25:43 ► §

tens of thousands, tens of millions of light years away.

00:25:46 ► §

I mean, it’s preposterous to assume that this is the only life in the universe,

00:25:51 ► §

the only intelligent life in the universe.

00:25:53 ► §

It’s also pretty preposterous to assume that we are being physically visited

00:25:58 ► §

by 16 different kinds of intelligent life.

00:26:02 ► §

It means you just don’t understand the distances involved,

00:26:06 ► §

the time scales involved,

00:26:08 ► §

what relativity has to say

00:26:10 ► §

about approaching the speed of light

00:26:12 ► §

and so forth and so on.

00:26:14 ► §

No, physically we are alone.

00:26:18 ► §

Physically.

00:26:20 ► §

But in the imagination

00:26:21 ► §

we’re surrounded by distant friends

00:26:26 ► §

and their whisperings are our science, our mathematics, our religions, our culture.

00:26:35 ► §

There may be many forms of intelligence in the universe

00:26:39 ► §

whose thoughts are blowing through us at any given moment.

00:26:44 ► §

Most of it, it’s not on a humanly cognizable scale.

00:26:50 ► §

In other words, it’s either to something this way or to something that way.

00:26:55 ► §

And when you look at it, you just say, you know, for me, a human being, this is noise.

00:27:10 ► §

but out of these many hundreds, thousands, millions of cross channels of co-present bell data,

00:27:16 ► §

some are enough like ourselves that we can at least discern resonances.

00:27:25 ► §

And out of those resonances then we form the images of these entities.

00:27:30 ► §

I haven’t seen the movie Contact,

00:27:33 ► §

but I understand there is a message and when you decode it, you build a machine

00:27:36 ► §

and then you go there.

00:27:38 ► §

That’s the plot.

00:27:40 ► §

I would just change the plot to say

00:27:42 ► §

there is a message

00:27:45 ► §

when you decode it

00:27:47 ► §

it tells you how to build a virtual reality

00:27:50 ► §

and then they are here

00:27:52 ► §

there’s no dramatic

00:27:55 ► §

really

00:27:58 ► §

yeah well see I don’t think the wormhole is open all the time

00:28:04 ► §

when you look into the imagination Yeah, well, see, I don’t think the wormhole is open all the time.

00:28:07 ► §

When you look into the imagination,

00:28:11 ► §

to the degree that you can decondition your human expectations,

00:28:15 ► §

the data will become more and more alien.

00:28:19 ► §

I mean, I have done this with the mushroom.

00:28:24 ► §

I’ve taken it, gotten stabilized in it and comfortable, and then said to it, gotten stabilized in it and comfortable,

00:28:26 ► §

and then said to it,

00:28:29 ► §

okay, we’re cruising.

00:28:34 ► §

Now show me what you are for yourself.

00:28:39 ► §

Don’t give me the version stamped suitable for human consumption.

00:28:42 ► §

Give me the straight shot.

00:28:48 ► §

Well, then the temperature begins to fall black draperies rise

00:28:50 ► §

there’s an enormous organ tone

00:28:52 ► §

and after about 30 seconds of that

00:28:54 ► §

you say could we go back to the

00:28:58 ► §

suitable for human consumption version of this

00:29:02 ► §

because to the degree that it truly

00:29:06 ► §

bears its essence

00:29:07 ► §

you just shrink in absolute

00:29:10 ► §

cosmic horror

00:29:11 ► §

from what it is because

00:29:13 ► §

what it is is

00:29:15 ► §

the mind that

00:29:18 ► §

stretches between the galaxies

00:29:20 ► §

it’s the thing

00:29:21 ► §

it saw the coming of

00:29:24 ► §

the Ra 500 million years ago.

00:29:27 ► §

It knows the history of the local group.

00:29:31 ► §

It possesses technologies that are so beyond the paltry imagination of man

00:29:37 ► §

that for decency to even hint of these things is to transgress to some degree so it comes as it can be

00:29:49 ► §

understood so it’s a kind of mental

00:29:51 ► §

calisthenics to train for it a friend of

00:29:54 ► §

mine said every time I take mushrooms my

00:29:58 ► §

goal is to stand more to stand more and

00:30:04 ► §

say to it okay here I am again let’s start where we

00:30:08 ► §

left off I’m ready to try and stand more so people who think this is some kind of

00:30:15 ► §

a lark or some kind of don’t really they are skimming the back of the beast

00:30:21 ► §

they’re never really it can take you further than you

00:30:25 ► §

want to go

00:30:26 ► §

it won’t usually

00:30:29 ► §

it’s usually quite benign

00:30:31 ► §

it seems to sense

00:30:32 ► §

our limitations

00:30:34 ► §

but if you present yourself

00:30:37 ► §

as a warrior

00:30:38 ► §

it will give you a warrior’s

00:30:40 ► §

experience

00:30:42 ► §

and then the key

00:30:44 ► §

coming out of all this is the second part of it is the

00:30:48 ► §

download and we’ve been having these astonishing experiences now for 30 40 years very hard to

00:30:56 ► §

communicate with each other now we have the tools the 3d modeling the animation anybody can learn these things in a few weeks of application

00:31:07 ► §

and we need a higher definition

00:31:11 ► §

higher dimension language

00:31:13 ► §

than small mouth noises to convey this stuff

00:31:16 ► §

we need to be able to see what we mean

00:31:19 ► §

we need to let other people see what we mean

00:31:23 ► §

we need to be able to freeze these incredibly complicated images and modalities

00:31:28 ► §

so that we can then analyze them aesthetically, mathematically, energetically,

00:31:35 ► §

and write papers about them and talk about it.

00:31:38 ► §

I mean, this is the great new frontier, the human imagination.

00:31:46 ► §

You know, it’s only been 400 years since we discovered the lost half of this planet.

00:31:54 ► §

I mean, you think we’ve got a hold on reality?

00:31:57 ► §

That’s how lame our story is.

00:32:00 ► §

400 years ago, it was a matter of debate if there was North and South America

00:32:06 ► §

and you know people just kept pushing

00:32:09 ► §

and pushing and sure enough

00:32:11 ► §

real estate beyond anybody’s wildest dreams

00:32:15 ► §

well I think there’s real estate

00:32:17 ► §

in the imagination

00:32:19 ► §

I think it’s the country we’re all going to live in

00:32:22 ► §

we’re like English

00:32:25 ► §

colonials restless with a mad king

00:32:28 ► §

and waiting to book passage to the new

00:32:31 ► §

worlds of America you know our

00:32:34 ► §

sails are filling the technologies exist

00:32:37 ► §

to do it and in 200

00:32:40 ► §

years it wouldn’t surprise me if the

00:32:43 ► §

imagination was you you know,

00:32:45 ► §

the major industrial and population center of the human world.

00:32:50 ► §

People say, well, what does that mean?

00:32:52 ► §

Well, who knows and why do you care?

00:32:58 ► §

It’s of the nature of an inevitability, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:33:06 ► §

We have exhausted the exterior world,

00:33:12 ► §

and yet the interior world beats like an enormous uncharted ocean.

00:33:19 ► §

And what is ordinary historical consciousness

00:33:23 ► §

but a tiny island protruding above that ocean.

00:33:27 ► §

So as we grow in sophistication and in our sense of who we are and what we want to do in the cosmos,

00:33:38 ► §

extremely exciting destinies, I think, will unfold for us.

00:33:42 ► §

We’ve just fought our way out of the

00:33:45 ► §

jungle, away from the influence

00:33:48 ► §

of the glaciers.

00:33:49 ► §

We’ve lopped off the heads of

00:33:51 ► §

the other megafauna on this

00:33:54 ► §

planet so we can have a little breathing

00:33:55 ► §

room. Now we need to ask

00:33:57 ► §

the question, you know, what is it all

00:34:00 ► §

for? What is it all

00:34:02 ► §

for? It can’t be for

00:34:04 ► §

masturbatory consumerism and

00:34:08 ► §

gratification of the historical ego at

00:34:13 ► §

the expense of all future generations.

00:34:16 ► §

We’ve flopped on the seamy side quite

00:34:19 ► §

long enough. It’s time to be up and

00:34:23 ► §

about the great and

00:34:25 ► §

exciting business of being

00:34:28 ► §

truly human

00:34:29 ► §

for the first time.

00:34:32 ► §

All right.

00:34:34 ► §

That’s the morning session.

00:34:36 ► §

I’m going to have to run.

00:34:39 ► §

Thank you very much. I hope you get

00:34:42 ► §

massaged

00:34:44 ► §

and so forth.

00:34:46 ► §

I will be back at four.

00:34:48 ► §

I wish I could stay, but I’m here so briefly.

00:34:54 ► §

Okay, well, let’s see here.

00:34:57 ► §

I have one thing to put before you,

00:35:02 ► §

which is just so you know how current we are

00:35:05 ► §

and how cutting edge,

00:35:07 ► §

I can tell you that this book

00:35:09 ► §

called Bots,

00:35:11 ► §

The Origin of a New Species

00:35:13 ► §

by Andrew Leonard

00:35:14 ► §

will receive a rave review

00:35:17 ► §

in tomorrow’s Sunday New York Times,

00:35:20 ► §

which is not yet printed.

00:35:24 ► §

And this is a book about the rise of AI

00:35:28 ► §

these bots as you know

00:35:31 ► §

info bots, all kinds of bots

00:35:33 ► §

running around on the internet

00:35:35 ► §

tracking down facts for you

00:35:37 ► §

doing all sorts of things

00:35:39 ► §

they are probably the embryogenic precursors

00:35:45 ► §

of the kind of artificial intelligence that we’ve been talking about.

00:35:51 ► §

This book was a gift to me, and I’ve just been looking through it,

00:35:55 ► §

and it really looks like lots of fun,

00:35:58 ► §

and definitely cutting-edge stuff.

00:36:02 ► §

It probably won’t be carried in the bookstore

00:36:05 ► §

at least not for a while

00:36:07 ► §

but that’s Bots

00:36:09 ► §

the origin of a new species

00:36:11 ► §

by Andrew Leonard

00:36:12 ► §

Leonard

00:36:15 ► §

L-E-O-N-A-R-D

00:36:17 ► §

and it’s a

00:36:19 ► §

hardwired book

00:36:22 ► §

they’re having a rough week up there

00:36:27 ► §

too

00:36:27 ► §

quite a week for turmoil

00:36:30 ► §

in cyberspace

00:36:32 ► §

yeah

00:36:34 ► §

I don’t know what direction

00:36:36 ► §

you’re fixing to go

00:36:38 ► §

but even though this might be

00:36:40 ► §

familiar territory for a lot of people here

00:36:42 ► §

possibly it’s the first time I’ve heard you

00:36:44 ► §

in this workshop,

00:36:46 ► §

and I was wondering if you could address some of the practical considerations

00:36:49 ► §

of the various psychedelics,

00:36:53 ► §

and which ones that you feel have more value,

00:36:55 ► §

and why the importance of setting an approach in the psychedelic experience.

00:37:02 ► §

Just your view.

00:37:02 ► §

on approaching the psychedelic experience,

00:37:02 ► §

just your view.

00:37:10 ► §

Well, yeah, my own psychedelic experience,

00:37:13 ► §

I was pretty much very typical, I think,

00:37:16 ► §

of people of my age and situation.

00:37:20 ► §

I began to hear about sometime in the late,

00:37:26 ► §

I guess in the early 60s it must have been,

00:37:30 ► §

I read The Doors of Perception.

00:37:33 ► §

And it was fascinating to me,

00:37:35 ► §

but I had no access to mescaline

00:37:38 ► §

or anything else,

00:37:40 ► §

nor any knowledge of pharmacology or botany.

00:37:44 ► §

nor any knowledge of pharmacology or botany.

00:37:50 ► §

And I then became interested in the counterculture and I subscribed to the Evergreen Review.

00:37:53 ► §

I think I was the only person west of the Mississippi River

00:37:57 ► §

who was getting the Evergreen Review in 1961, 62, 63.

00:38:03 ► §

And they were publishing people like

00:38:05 ► §

the French surrealist André Michaud

00:38:08 ► §

they were publishing

00:38:09 ► §

they published

00:38:12 ► §

parts of Terry Southern’s

00:38:14 ► §

book Red Dirt Marijuana

00:38:16 ► §

and

00:38:17 ► §

I just became obsessed

00:38:19 ► §

with locating these things

00:38:21 ► §

my first attempt to get high

00:38:24 ► §

was I had heard that

00:38:25 ► §

morning glories would get you high

00:38:28 ► §

so I went out and gathered

00:38:30 ► §

bindweed

00:38:31 ► §

which is this little morning glory

00:38:33 ► §

like you see along the highways here

00:38:34 ► §

and you know

00:38:37 ► §

had a hell of a stomachache

00:38:38 ► §

the first of many

00:38:41 ► §

in pursuit of this

00:38:44 ► §

and then I I the first of many in pursuit of this.

00:38:49 ► §

And then I… It wasn’t until 63, 64,

00:38:54 ► §

when I was a senior in high school,

00:38:56 ► §

that the last semester of my senior year in high school,

00:39:02 ► §

I went to Berkeley for Christmas vacation and finally

00:39:06 ► §

was able to score some cannabis and smoked it all up. And it didn’t seem to do what I

00:39:16 ► §

had expected, but I was able to do incredible verbal performances, extemporaneous feats of heavy lifting.

00:39:28 ► §

I could make up pseudo chapters of Melville’s Moby Dick.

00:39:36 ► §

I could just fall into these rhetorical things and rave.

00:39:41 ► §

But it didn’t seem to be getting me off from my own point

00:39:46 ► §

of view and then I went back down

00:39:48 ► §

to Southern California to Lancaster

00:39:50 ► §

where I was going to school

00:39:52 ► §

of all places

00:39:53 ► §

Captain Beefheart graduated

00:39:58 ► §

from the same high school I did

00:40:00 ► §

Antelope Valley Joint Union High School

00:40:07 ► §

District

00:40:08 ► §

oh there’s the antelope

00:40:11 ► §

Zappa also

00:40:14 ► §

geniuses just were pouring out of this school

00:40:18 ► §

and my friend and I

00:40:22 ► §

began, we would take

00:40:24 ► §

we found a source of morning glory seeds, the real kind.

00:40:29 ► §

And we would grind them up and put them in milkshakes and go out into the Mojave Desert.

00:40:36 ► §

And I never had the explicit visionary eyes in the dark breakthrough because we didn’t know how to do it.

00:40:45 ► §

But we would look at the desert,

00:40:48 ► §

and I remember it became more significant.

00:40:53 ► §

Everything looked significant.

00:40:56 ► §

And if you recall the vocabulary of Doors of Perception,

00:41:02 ► §

it was that kind of thing.

00:41:03 ► §

He said everything was glowing with ischite

00:41:06 ► §

and there’s a lot of eyes open stuff going on

00:41:10 ► §

then I got to Berkeley

00:41:12 ► §

or before I went

00:41:14 ► §

I left Lancaster

00:41:15 ► §

came to San Francisco

00:41:16 ► §

got a job that summer

00:41:18 ► §

and across the hall

00:41:20 ► §

in this flop house

00:41:22 ► §

where my friend and I live

00:41:24 ► §

was this very peculiar guitar

00:41:30 ► §

plucking character who later turned out to be Barry Melton of Country Joe and the Fish,

00:41:37 ► §

the guitarist. And it was just a few months after this that they brought out that album Electric Music for the Mind and the Body

00:41:45 ► §

which was you know it was very

00:41:47 ► §

happening and I took acid

00:41:50 ► §

that summer

00:41:51 ► §

Sandoz LSD

00:41:53 ► §

in those little white

00:41:56 ► §

capsules

00:41:57 ► §

and finally grabbed

00:41:59 ► §

it one night on

00:42:01 ► §

Green Street and just went

00:42:03 ► §

completely came to pieces.

00:42:06 ► §

In fact, disgraced myself in several dimensions

00:42:09 ► §

that nobody’s ever been willing to explain to me fully since.

00:42:14 ► §

I gather my sexuality, my bowels, my everything else

00:42:19 ► §

just went into a tizzy.

00:42:27 ► §

And then then you know

00:42:28 ► §

and so that was

00:42:29 ► §

I was sort of like

00:42:30 ► §

following the track

00:42:31 ► §

many people were having

00:42:33 ► §

these kinds of experiences

00:42:35 ► §

at just that time

00:42:37 ► §

but then

00:42:39 ► §

in February of 1967

00:42:44 ► §

I sort of found my way at the front of the parade when one rainy evening in Berkeley, this friend of mine, who I’m still extremely tight with, and this guy always was first in everything.

00:43:03 ► §

And, you know, he made it his business

00:43:05 ► §

to burn through and abandon things

00:43:08 ► §

before you’d ever heard of them.

00:43:10 ► §

And he arrived at my house this rainy February night

00:43:14 ► §

and he said, I have something I want you to try.

00:43:18 ► §

And I said, what is it?

00:43:19 ► §

And he said, it’s a new psychedelic.

00:43:22 ► §

And I said, how long does it last?

00:43:30 ► §

And he said said three minutes and I said no problem you know we’re acid heads we we can handle three minutes of anything and sat down and smoked my and it’s never been the same since.

00:43:46 ► §

I mean, it worked 100%.

00:43:49 ► §

Yes, this was the famous 55-gallon drum

00:43:54 ► §

that was boosted off an army conveyance vehicle when it was moved

00:44:05 ► §

from SRI

00:44:06 ► §

to

00:44:08 ► §

some proving ground in the

00:44:10 ► §

southwest

00:44:11 ► §

the US Army was trying to

00:44:14 ► §

develop an aerosol artillery

00:44:16 ► §

shell that would

00:44:18 ► §

land in a Vietnamese village

00:44:21 ► §

drive everyone nuts

00:44:23 ► §

and you could send your people in

00:44:25 ► §

and take over in all this gaseous

00:44:28 ► §

hallucinogenic confusion

00:44:30 ► §

and DMT and even then more debilitating

00:44:34 ► §

psychedelics were being looked at in the service

00:44:37 ► §

of this and it’s a famous

00:44:40 ► §

story in the underground

00:44:42 ► §

that there was this one 55-gallon drum

00:44:46 ► §

of pure crystalline material

00:44:49 ► §

that somebody just made sure fell into a ditch

00:44:52 ► §

in Menlo Park somewhere

00:44:54 ► §

and somebody else came along five minutes later

00:44:57 ► §

and picked it up.

00:44:58 ► §

And rumor persists that that 55-gallon drum

00:45:03 ► §

is not empty yet.

00:45:07 ► §

Apocryphal stories abound of burial sites near Hudson’s Bay,

00:45:14 ► §

in the deserts of the Namib, other places it’s been moved around.

00:45:21 ► §

Even the Dome of the Rock was indicated at one time.

00:45:25 ► §

So I don’t suggest you go looking for it under the Dome of the Rock.

00:45:31 ► §

Anyway, DMT really, we had to then do our own research.

00:45:41 ► §

We weren’t getting information from the culture about DMT.

00:45:44 ► §

It was talking about LSD and

00:45:46 ► §

this and that and the first thing you find out when you look into what DMT is and at that time

00:45:54 ► §

it was true was that it occurs in a lot of plants later Wade Davis on on, were just this amazing ethnographic and chemical data

00:46:07 ► §

was like being downloaded out of the Amazon and declassified.

00:46:11 ► §

And it just was revealing the entire picture

00:46:15 ► §

of a shamanic hallucinogenic religion

00:46:19 ► §

and having smoke DMT.

00:46:22 ► §

You know, we were inside from the start.

00:46:25 ► §

I mean, we knew that this was just the most important thing to ever come down the pike.

00:46:34 ► §

And so quickly for myself and my friends,

00:46:38 ► §

the emphasis shifted toward how can we extend this experience?

00:46:44 ► §

Because if you’ve smoked DMT

00:46:47 ► §

and you’re like me

00:46:49 ► §

it’s very hard to grab onto

00:46:52 ► §

while it’s happening

00:46:54 ► §

it’s the most intense experience you’ve ever had

00:46:58 ► §

but it’s so strange

00:46:59 ► §

and there may even be a physiological

00:47:02 ► §

tendency for it not to transcript into short-term memory.

00:47:09 ► §

Because when you come down from a DMT trip, it’s like awakening from a dream.

00:47:15 ► §

You just have this kind of crazy sense that something has just been happening and it was all around you and now it’s gone.

00:47:26 ► §

So we wanted to understand how can you get in there for longer. And we tried simple things

00:47:35 ► §

like taking it at the top of LSD trips. This is a hell of a launch, but it doesn’t particularly prolong it.

00:47:49 ► §

It maybe doubles the time from three minutes to six.

00:47:53 ► §

But we were saying, you know, if you could get in there for an hour,

00:47:58 ► §

you could learn something, you could bring something back. That was always the goal, to bring something back,

00:48:02 ► §

an idea, an artifact, an equation, something.

00:48:05 ► §

Well, further research indicated then,

00:48:12 ► §

and I think probably the key source here

00:48:16 ► §

is that book that William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg did

00:48:20 ► §

in the late 60s called The Yahé Letters,

00:48:25 ► §

where, I can’t remember what the order

00:48:28 ► §

of it is, I think Ginsburg goes down

00:48:30 ► §

looking for it

00:48:32 ► §

writes letters back to

00:48:34 ► §

Burroughs, Burroughs

00:48:36 ► §

then goes down a year later

00:48:38 ► §

looking for it, writes letters back to

00:48:40 ► §

Ginsburg

00:48:40 ► §

Ginsburg

00:48:42 ► §

comes off as somewhat of a nervous Nelly in that book. He didn’t

00:48:51 ► §

really care for it. It was a bit much for him. Burroughs, of course, ever the trooper,

00:48:59 ► §

was completely gung-ho. And so this brought up the issue of Yahe which is what Ayahuasca is called north of the

00:49:10 ► §

Putumayo River as a general as a generalization well then in the meantime other things were

00:49:19 ► §

happening for me I went to Israel I tried to emigrate to the Seychelles Islands. I spent time in India.

00:49:29 ► §

I was a smuggler, an art dealer. Then I got in trouble for the smuggling, so I had to hide out

00:49:36 ► §

from that. So I went to Indonesia to be a butterfly collector. And that, for the first time, plunged me on a day-to-day basis

00:49:47 ► §

for months into the heart of tropical,

00:49:51 ► §

true tropical nature,

00:49:53 ► §

which I had never seen before.

00:49:55 ► §

I mean, I was born in Colorado,

00:49:58 ► §

raised in California.

00:50:00 ► §

I had never been to the equatorial tropics.

00:50:03 ► §

You started at Berkeley.

00:50:06 ► §

What were you doing then?

00:50:11 ► §

Because it sounded like your interest in botany and theobots evolved from it.

00:50:13 ► §

Well, when I first went to Berkeley,

00:50:18 ► §

I accepted entry into an experimental college called the Tussman Experimental Program,

00:50:21 ► §

and I went two years to Berkeley,

00:50:23 ► §

program and I went two years to Berkeley 65, 67

00:50:25 ► §

no

00:50:28 ► §

65, 67, 67, 68

00:50:32 ► §

and then I left

00:50:33 ► §

and then when I returned years later in 72

00:50:38 ► §

I majored in

00:50:40 ► §

systems theory and ecology

00:50:44 ► §

and botany

00:50:46 ► §

and I actually had a

00:50:48 ► §

self-directed major in shamanism

00:50:51 ► §

I had

00:50:52 ► §

written The Invisible Landscape

00:50:54 ► §

with my brother at that time

00:50:56 ► §

and I just sort of presented that

00:50:58 ► §

as a series

00:51:00 ► §

whenever they wanted me to write a paper

00:51:02 ► §

I’d submit a chapter from the book

00:51:04 ► §

I’d already written

00:51:05 ► §

it was sort of the DMV and the plant connection

00:51:08 ► §

that led you in that direction

00:51:10 ► §

yeah, absolutely

00:51:12 ► §

before that, in my life, in the course of my life

00:51:16 ► §

I had had sort of a love affair between the natural sciences

00:51:19 ► §

and the sciences

00:51:20 ► §

I mean the natural sciences and the humanities

00:51:24 ► §

like when I was a little kid,

00:51:26 ► §

when I was seven,

00:51:27 ► §

I was a rock collector,

00:51:29 ► §

a fossil collector,

00:51:31 ► §

a butterfly collector.

00:51:33 ► §

Then around age 10,

00:51:35 ► §

I read, I think,

00:51:37 ► §

an Aldous Huxley

00:51:38 ► §

or maybe a Julian Huxley essay

00:51:40 ► §

that sneered at all that

00:51:42 ► §

and introduced this concept

00:51:44 ► §

of the humanities. I didn’t even

00:51:46 ► §

know what they were. I said, oh, humanities, literature, philosophy, and art. So then I

00:51:52 ► §

became, I just charged into that. The reason I even encountered the doors of perception

00:51:59 ► §

was because I was reading all of Aldous Huxley’s novels. You know, this 13-year-old kid reading

00:52:07 ► §

Chrome, Yellow, Antique Hay,

00:52:09 ► §

After Many a Summer Dies the Swan,

00:52:12 ► §

these extremely arch novels of English social life in the 20s.

00:52:18 ► §

And I became obsessed with modern art

00:52:23 ► §

in this small, narrow-minded town where I lived.

00:52:27 ► §

It was a good way to get in everybody’s face

00:52:31 ► §

was to go around saying, you know,

00:52:33 ► §

Jackson Pollock is a genius.

00:52:35 ► §

You may not think so, but you’re an idiot.

00:52:39 ► §

And, you know, there was a period in my life

00:52:43 ► §

where I formed my taste by saying I liked what I didn’t like.

00:52:49 ► §

And inevitably, these were good choices because I was raised in an ecology that valued Norman Rockwell,

00:52:57 ► §

Rock of Ages, Silent Night, Rosemary Clooney.

00:53:07 ► §

Mary Clooney and you know and I said no no Jackson Pollock Samuel Beckett Jean Genet Carl Jaspers Martin Heidegger I didn’t know what these things meant I just knew they were

00:53:13 ► §

mantras that kept straight people away so anyway when I went to Indonesia, I saw this tropical nature,

00:53:25 ► §

but absent psychedelics.

00:53:27 ► §

There were none.

00:53:28 ► §

I mean, there was fine Sumatran cannabis,

00:53:32 ► §

which I kept prodigious amounts with me at all times,

00:53:36 ► §

but there were no real psychedelics.

00:53:39 ► §

But the butterflies, and I really was sort of retracing the steps of Alfred Wallace

00:53:46 ► §

who was the in the person who discovered

00:53:50 ► §

evolution and I sort of felt although

00:53:53 ► §

I’m not given to past life is a meriny

00:53:56 ► §

of that I felt a very strong connection

00:53:59 ► §

to Wallace and I had his journals which

00:54:03 ► §

were 120 years old at that time and I went to the places he went to and I had his journals which were 120 years old at that time and I went to the places

00:54:07 ► §

he went to and I collected the butterflies he collected and I observed the plants he observed

00:54:13 ► §

and I thought about complexity and diversity and all these issues and I also processed my experiences in India, which had not been happy. I mean,

00:54:30 ► §

I found India to be a spiritual desert, you know, full of con artists and weasels of every

00:54:36 ► §

variety. And I was better prepared than most. I mean, I had studied Adyavadaita Vedanta and I was serious,

00:54:48 ► §

you know. I at one point thought I would

00:54:50 ► §

be a Tibetan scholar until I actually

00:54:53 ► §

studied with lamas and learned how

00:54:57 ► §

hellishly complex the Tibetan language

00:55:00 ► §

actually is. And one of the things that

00:55:03 ► §

has shaped my

00:55:06 ► §

intellectual life is

00:55:08 ► §

I have enormous

00:55:09 ► §

facility with English

00:55:11 ► §

I can speak no other

00:55:13 ► §

language with any

00:55:15 ► §

facility whatsoever

00:55:16 ► §

I have failed

00:55:18 ► §

German, Hebrew

00:55:21 ► §

Spanish, Tibetan

00:55:24 ► §

Portuguese Italian and there must be a few others German, Hebrew, Spanish, Tibetan, Portuguese, Italian,

00:55:27 ► §

and there must be a few others.

00:55:30 ► §

They’re just despair of…

00:55:32 ► §

So that made it clear to me,

00:55:34 ► §

well, a life of scholarship,

00:55:36 ► §

you can never be a Tibetan scholar.

00:55:39 ► §

You can never be a number of things

00:55:42 ► §

because you have this funny blockage.

00:55:46 ► §

And the conclusion from looking at Indonesian nature

00:55:49 ► §

and looking at Asian spirituality

00:55:52 ► §

as experienced up front

00:55:55 ► §

was I should go to the Amazon.

00:55:59 ► §

And in a way, we had always known this.

00:56:03 ► §

It’s not like we weren’t as dumb as I’m making it sound.

00:56:07 ► §

It was just a matter of working through all this stuff and getting to it.

00:56:11 ► §

And finally, in 1971, my brother and myself and several other people,

00:56:19 ► §

well prepared, well prepared by even the standards of today.

00:56:24 ► §

I meet people today who are going down there

00:56:26 ► §

to look for drugs and enlightenment

00:56:29 ► §

who haven’t done the homework that I was able to do

00:56:32 ► §

in 1971

00:56:33 ► §

and then went to Colombia

00:56:38 ► §

and we were pursuing a very rare

00:56:42 ► §

hallucinogen

00:56:44 ► §

it’s called Ufkuhe. It’s known only to three very

00:56:51 ► §

small tribes down there. The Witoto, the Muinani, and the Bora. And it’s a DMT drug that is taken orally,

00:57:06 ► §

and the reports in the Boston Museum Botanical Leaflets said

00:57:10 ► §

they use it to see little people.

00:57:13 ► §

And this was, I don’t think I mentioned,

00:57:16 ► §

part of why we were so into this is because the thing that is so unbelievable,

00:57:22 ► §

even by psychedelic standards,

00:57:25 ► §

about the DMT flash

00:57:27 ► §

is that it’s inhabited.

00:57:30 ► §

It’s not simply a reorganization

00:57:32 ► §

of brain states

00:57:33 ► §

or an insight about your sexuality

00:57:35 ► §

or your anything.

00:57:38 ► §

It’s a place full of beings

00:57:41 ► §

that are frantically

00:57:44 ► §

trying to communicate with you, beings that are frantically trying to communicate with you,

00:57:46 ► §

beings that are far weirder than any of the beings

00:57:50 ► §

that haunt the tabloids in the supermarket.

00:57:53 ► §

I mean real aliens,

00:57:56 ► §

aliens that don’t even seem to be exactly made of ordinary space and time, but an intelligence. And I knew, having grown up with

00:58:12 ► §

this kind of scientific thing in my background, that from a scientific point of view, it was

00:58:18 ► §

either impossible or that we had made a great discovery. And I still think that we made a great discovery.

00:58:28 ► §

I mean, it was sort of like the discovery of America.

00:58:31 ► §

There were already millions of people living there

00:58:34 ► §

when it was discovered.

00:58:36 ► §

But nevertheless, for white boys in the middle class in Berkeley,

00:58:43 ► §

we were definitely making a discovery

00:58:45 ► §

that these drugs don’t distort reality

00:58:48 ► §

or expand reality

00:58:50 ► §

or they introduce you to entirely new

00:58:54 ► §

and utterly unsuspected realities,

00:58:57 ► §

realities that confound reason.

00:59:01 ► §

And this, you see,

00:59:03 ► §

this is what I had been looking for

00:59:05 ► §

I wanted a miracle

00:59:07 ► §

a real miracle

00:59:09 ► §

not a miracle where you had to bow down

00:59:13 ► §

and wear a dhoti and sweep up around the ashram

00:59:16 ► §

and kowtow

00:59:17 ► §

a real miracle

00:59:20 ► §

and as far as I know

00:59:22 ► §

and I haven’t had to change my opinion since

00:59:26 ► §

1971 DMT is a miracle. I mean it’s like being struck by noetic lightning. It’s the one thing

00:59:35 ► §

That you’ve convinced yourself is impossible

00:59:39 ► §

Whatever that thing is that you have managed to convince yourself is impossible,

00:59:46 ► §

smoke DMT and it will just kick open the door of your apartment

00:59:50 ► §

and take you prisoner.

00:59:53 ► §

Rotate the wheels on your after-death vehicle,

00:59:56 ► §

balance them, present the bill, and depart up the chimney.

01:00:01 ► §

It’s really something.

01:00:10 ► §

There’s nothing like it, this side of the yawning gray so I determined I had to understand it and now I think I can I do not understand it but I’ve managed to

01:00:20 ► §

lead many people by one means or another through my exhortation or my writing

01:00:26 ► §

to climb up to the rim and have a look over.

01:00:31 ► §

And it has been established by a tiny but vocal minority

01:00:36 ► §

as a true, a phenomenon, a fact of this world.

01:00:45 ► §

And so then any cultural dialogue that goes on

01:00:49 ► §

to some degree must assimilate it.

01:00:52 ► §

If any point of view which ignores this

01:00:55 ► §

is not addressing the full spectrum of reality

01:01:01 ► §

as to what to make of it,

01:01:04 ► §

I have no idea what to make of it. This is my life’s struggle to know what to make of reality. As to what to make of it, I have no idea what to make of it. This is my life’s

01:01:07 ► §

struggle to know what to make of it. It is impossible and yet occurs. And, you know, it

01:01:17 ► §

transcends ordinary emotions. You can’t say you’re afraid of it or you love it or you fear it

01:01:25 ► §

it’s just appalling, that’s all

01:01:28 ► §

it shatters all illusions

01:01:32 ► §

of a stable, coherent

01:01:35 ► §

understood, manageable

01:01:38 ► §

universe

01:01:41 ► §

and says no, no, no

01:01:43 ► §

that’s just a fiction told around the campfire.

01:01:47 ► §

What’s true is this thing that English can’t even approach.

01:01:55 ► §

You know, we are just, English and all other descriptive approaches

01:01:59 ► §

are simply melted and blown back from the strangeness of it.

01:02:05 ► §

And yet, you know, having said all that about it,

01:02:10 ► §

it’s just one toke away.

01:02:13 ► §

And it’s just one toke away,

01:02:16 ► §

and then ten minutes after that you’re back.

01:02:20 ► §

So it’s like this bizarre thing.

01:02:23 ► §

I mean, people go to the Himalayas, they don’t screw for 20 years, they eat bad food, they journey here, they journey there, one large inhalation away,

01:02:45 ► §

and pretty incontrovertible.

01:02:47 ► §

In other words, its most spectacular effects occur when used on doubters.

01:02:55 ► §

You know, how we love to watch them twitch there on the floor

01:03:00 ► §

after having announced that drugs don’t really do anything.

01:03:05 ► §

You know, well,

01:03:14 ► §

here’s one that does something. Try this on for size. And then it’s just a matter, I guess, once you arrive at that place, I guess I should say this, it’s sort of the game changes. You know,

01:03:21 ► §

I guess I should say this.

01:03:23 ► §

It’s sort of the game changes.

01:03:26 ► §

You know, we talked a lot this morning and last night about juvenileization and neoteny and all that.

01:03:31 ► §

Well, it’s very, very easy to be a seeker.

01:03:35 ► §

It’s a fool’s game, you know,

01:03:38 ► §

and archetypically the seeker is always a bit of a fool.

01:03:43 ► §

I mean, what is required of the seeker is always a bit of a fool I mean what is required of the seeker

01:03:46 ► §

basically nothing but a strong

01:03:49 ► §

stomach for authoritarianism

01:03:53 ► §

you just keep looking

01:03:56 ► §

you know this teacher

01:03:58 ► §

that method, this ashram

01:04:01 ► §

that dojo, whatever

01:04:03 ► §

seek, seek, seek.

01:04:05 ► §

And after you’ve sought for 20, 30 years,

01:04:09 ► §

it’s pretty easy to assume

01:04:11 ► §

that there’s no reason to expect you’ll ever get anywhere.

01:04:17 ► §

Well, DMT changes the nature of the game.

01:04:21 ► §

DMT is not about seeking the answer. It is

01:04:28 ► §

the answer. And so once you have

01:04:31 ► §

by chance or design encountered it, or even

01:04:35 ► §

the rumor of it,

01:04:38 ► §

the game becomes quite a bit more grown up.

01:04:44 ► §

Now you have to face the answer

01:04:46 ► §

you found it

01:04:48 ► §

no more trips to Ceylon are necessary

01:04:52 ► §

no more journeys down to be with Don So-and-so

01:04:55 ► §

or any of that malarkey

01:04:57 ► §

you can just put that on the shelf now

01:05:00 ► §

you’re now an adult

01:05:03 ► §

you have entered the big time. No opening of chakras or revelation

01:05:11 ► §

of shastras or passing of mantras or, you know, building of yantras is going to carry

01:05:19 ► §

you any further than where you finally arrived. have found the answer now you have

01:05:26 ► §

to face it and people hate that it’s appalling it doesn’t feel like fun at

01:05:31 ► §

all it’s like you know the answer here it is what to do with it and I I don’t

01:05:41 ► §

know what to do with it. Kathleen?

01:05:46 ► §

Did you find other mixtures that extended that experience besides IOMs?

01:05:54 ► §

Or is that the main thing?

01:05:57 ► §

Any MAO, if your MAO is inhibited, for the rest of you,

01:06:04 ► §

this is an enzyme system that operates in the guts.

01:06:09 ► §

Normally DMT is destroyed in the intestine,

01:06:12 ► §

but if you pre-treat yourself with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor,

01:06:17 ► §

it will survive in the guts and pass into the bloodstream and hence into the brain.

01:06:23 ► §

pass into the bloodstream and hence into the brain.

01:06:31 ► §

So ayahuasca, yahey, these things are strategies for making DMT orally active. Any MAO inhibitor will make you hypersensitive to psychoactive tryptamines.

01:06:40 ► §

But I think it’s important to follow the tradition of these South American shamans

01:06:46 ► §

because some of these MAO inhibitors are too strong.

01:06:51 ► §

Some last days, some weeks.

01:06:55 ► §

The compound in ayahuasca that is doing the MAO inhibition is harmine.

01:07:06 ► §

inhibition is harming. It’s known, its pharmacological profile is that it’s

01:07:15 ► §

reversible in four to six hours. Great, perfect, exactly the right time window,

01:07:23 ► §

because you don’t want a 12, 36, 48, 72-hour trip, nor do you presumably, if you’re trying to get away from this flash effect of DMT,

01:07:27 ► §

do you want a 3, 4, 5, 10 minute trip. So a 4 to 6 hour MAO inhibition is just about

01:07:35 ► §

right.

01:07:35 ► §

Can you recommend a source of harming?

01:07:54 ► §

of harming well I’d rather recommend a source of harm Alene a nearly a close relative compound and the reason for that is harm mean which is what actually occurs in banisteriopsis copy is some has as one of its effects

01:08:05 ► §

it tends to cause

01:08:07 ► §

nausea

01:08:09 ► §

Harmaline is much

01:08:11 ► §

less active on the

01:08:13 ► §

stomach

01:08:14 ► §

and an excellent source of Harmaline

01:08:18 ► §

is the seeds of

01:08:20 ► §

Pagamen Harmala

01:08:21 ► §

Pagamen Harmala

01:08:23 ► §

is a

01:08:25 ► §

zygophilaceous shrub that grows

01:08:29 ► §

naturally from Morocco to Manchuria.

01:08:33 ► §

Huge stands of it exist in the American

01:08:36 ► §

Southwest, in places like Deming, New

01:08:38 ► §

Mexico, and up near Lake Tahoe on Route

01:08:42 ► §

50. And it produces a hard little black seed,

01:08:47 ► §

which if you take two grams of this seed,

01:08:50 ► §

it will very effectively inhibit your monoamine oxidase.

01:08:55 ► §

If you don’t take it with a psychedelic,

01:08:57 ► §

you will probably notice only a kind of sedating effect,

01:09:03 ► §

nothing dramatic.

01:09:05 ► §

But if you complex it with DMT,

01:09:09 ► §

it will turn on all the lights

01:09:11 ► §

on the Christmas tree.

01:09:14 ► §

Pegaman, P-E-R-G-A-M-U-M,

01:09:18 ► §

Har Mala, H-A-R-M-A-L-A.

01:09:21 ► §

It’s sold in Iranian markets

01:09:24 ► §

under the name Hirmal

01:09:26 ► §

and is used as an incense.

01:09:30 ► §

It’s also in the Allies catalog,

01:09:33 ► §

although he’s selling it for reasonable money.

01:09:35 ► §

It takes such a small amount.

01:09:38 ► §

On that list that I said,

01:09:39 ► §

I can first one is Allies.

01:09:41 ► §

Do not take more than two grams of this.

01:09:45 ► §

It works.

01:09:47 ► §

Now, to be fair,

01:09:49 ► §

if you’re going to start doing this,

01:09:51 ► §

I mean, you really should.

01:09:54 ► §

There’s a lot of homework and scholarship,

01:09:57 ► §

a little chemistry, a little botany.

01:09:59 ► §

You really should try to inform yourself

01:10:03 ► §

about what’s going on

01:10:04 ► §

because you’re taking charge of your spiritual existence.

01:10:11 ► §

These are the tools.

01:10:13 ► §

These are the means.

01:10:15 ► §

Know the tools.

01:10:16 ► §

Know the means.

01:10:16 ► §

And then you won’t screw up.

01:10:18 ► §

Yeah.

01:10:19 ► §

What you have to do is look at all the drugs news groups on the Internet

01:10:24 ► §

and you’ll see how reckless people can be

01:10:27 ► §

and how misinformed about these things.

01:10:29 ► §

So it really needs to try to do this

01:10:32 ► §

and also inform other people because there’s a lot.

01:10:36 ► §

Yeah, there’s a lot of bad information around.

01:10:40 ► §

Is there any one book or a couple of books

01:10:43 ► §

where you can fully inform yourself about some stuff? rarely makes technical mistakes. So he’s one person to look at.

01:11:10 ► §

There aren’t a lot of how-to-do-it manuals in drug taking

01:11:14 ► §

because it’s a thankless task for an author.

01:11:17 ► §

You just gain social disgrace, you know.

01:11:22 ► §

There are some lists on the internet,

01:11:26 ► §

like at Lyceum,

01:11:27 ► §

there are very large data archives

01:11:30 ► §

maintained, and people

01:11:32 ► §

with an interest in keeping the

01:11:34 ► §

integrity of the data

01:11:36 ► §

high. But

01:11:37 ► §

never trust,

01:11:40 ► §

I mean, always, you know, as Gorbachev

01:11:42 ► §

said, trust but verify.

01:11:45 ► §

Because it’s not like if you get your mantra wrong, something terrible will happen.

01:11:51 ► §

But if you get your molecule wrong, something terrible well might happen.

01:11:57 ► §

So you have to be more careful and more responsible because these things actually work. The way I think of the categories of these psychedelics,

01:12:09 ► §

and people have done different maps of it,

01:12:13 ► §

but the way I think about it is like a bullseye, like a target.

01:12:18 ► §

And in the center is DMT.

01:12:21 ► §

And I’m on record, I guess guess as saying if you can get more loaded

01:12:25 ► §

than that I don’t want to know

01:12:27 ► §

about it

01:12:28 ► §

however now we

01:12:31 ► §

you should never

01:12:32 ► §

say never

01:12:34 ► §

so DMT at the center

01:12:38 ► §

of the bullseye then

01:12:39 ► §

around that next circle

01:12:42 ► §

out high dose

01:12:43 ► §

psilocybin 8 gramsbin, 8 grams and up.

01:12:48 ► §

8 grams and up.

01:12:50 ► §

Then around that, high-dose LSD, mescaline, and it fades out.

01:12:59 ► §

And dose is very important.

01:13:01 ► §

In other words, there are people running around who took psychedelics

01:13:05 ► §

once and think then that they should pontificate about it. You know, 100 gamma of LSD is nothing

01:13:14 ► §

like 500 gamma of LSD. And 500 gamma of LSD is not putting the system at risk at all and yet it’s certainly putting

01:13:25 ► §

people’s psychology and self-image at risk I mean they assume they’ll never

01:13:30 ► §

live to tell the tale usually in these cautious days anyway but the organism is

01:13:38 ► §

not at risk you know a lot of people take mushrooms at very low doses

01:13:45 ► §

half gram, one gram

01:13:48 ► §

two gram

01:13:49 ► §

for them they think that’s getting spectacular

01:13:51 ► §

for a 145 pound person

01:13:55 ► §

the action begins

01:13:56 ► §

at five dried grams

01:13:58 ► §

and goes up from there

01:14:01 ► §

and quickly becomes un-Englishable

01:14:03 ► §

and completely difficult to convey back.

01:14:10 ► §

As long as we’re on this subject, I suppose,

01:14:13 ► §

and in the interest of staying current,

01:14:17 ► §

as some of you probably know,

01:14:19 ► §

in the last several years an entirely new psychedelic

01:14:23 ► §

has appeared on the scene,

01:14:25 ► §

completely confounding both psychedelic enthusiasts,

01:14:32 ► §

order freaks, the law, the chemists, everybody.

01:14:38 ► §

I’m speaking of salvia divinorum and its active principle alpha-salvinoring

01:14:45 ► §

if you are

01:14:47 ► §

a soul of such rectitude

01:14:51 ► §

that you’ve been putting off

01:14:53 ► §

doing psychedelics

01:14:54 ► §

because they’re illegal

01:14:55 ► §

this is the one for you

01:14:58 ► §

it’s not illegal

01:15:00 ► §

it’s legal

01:15:02 ► §

it’s as legal as little green apples are legal.

01:15:08 ► §

As long as everyone keeps them alive.

01:15:10 ► §

As long as everyone…

01:15:11 ► §

Well, I don’t know.

01:15:13 ► §

I don’t know whether…

01:15:15 ► §

It may even just be legal.

01:15:17 ► §

In other words, to suppress this would,

01:15:20 ► §

at this point in the drug dialogue would cost the other side a lot

01:15:28 ► §

of effort and credibility and probably

01:15:33 ► §

the effort would fail almost everything

01:15:40 ► §

about salvia divinorum is unusual first of all it’s not an alkaloid all other

01:15:50 ► §

psychedelics true psychedelics are alkaloids with the single exception of mescaline mescaline is

01:15:59 ► §

as an amphetamine very close to alkaloids the compound The compound that’s active in salvia divinorum,

01:16:07 ► §

alpha-salvinorine, is a diterpene, not an alkaloid.

01:16:13 ► §

The only psychoactive diterpene ever discovered.

01:16:18 ► §

So that’s one thing unusual about it.

01:16:21 ► §

Another thing unusual about it is it’s active under one milligram. Now,

01:16:30 ► §

that means that approximately 800 micrograms of this stuff is the effective dose. This is similar

01:16:38 ► §

in the LSD range, except LSD you took orally. This you smoke. When you talk about smoking 800 micrograms of material,

01:16:49 ► §

we’re talking about a very small grain of salt.

01:16:53 ► §

So the potential for overdose on the pure compound

01:16:57 ► §

is almost inevitable.

01:17:01 ► §

How does it compare to the D&T experience?

01:17:08 ► §

Well, again, I have not had the guts to smoke the pure compound having watched

01:17:11 ► §

people melt and twitch fairly

01:17:13 ► §

dramatically DMT test pilots come back

01:17:18 ► §

ashen white knuckled. I chew the stuff.

01:17:27 ► §

I chew 35 grams of it in darkness

01:17:30 ► §

and then spit it out

01:17:32 ► §

when I feel it begin to come on.

01:17:35 ► §

It’s absolutely remarkable

01:17:37 ► §

how powerful it is.

01:17:40 ► §

I mean, you’re lying there thinking,

01:17:41 ► §

this can’t be legal.

01:17:44 ► §

You know, I mean, this actually works.

01:17:47 ► §

Yeah, Scott.

01:17:48 ► §

Has this actually been extracted or synthesized?

01:17:52 ► §

I was just thinking of that as far as the legal implications,

01:17:56 ► §

because if it were to become extracted, that’s what I think.

01:18:01 ► §

It’s difficult to kind of nail this.

01:18:04 ► §

I don’t know if it’s been synthesized

01:18:07 ► §

it’s been extracted

01:18:09 ► §

I think that

01:18:12 ► §

it’s a very interesting situation

01:18:15 ► §

for our community

01:18:17 ► §

this stuff is not illegal

01:18:19 ► §

if we want it to remain legal

01:18:24 ► §

we should not provide horrific examples

01:18:29 ► §

of its abuse

01:18:30 ► §

now it seems like in that effort

01:18:34 ► §

it’s doing its part to aid us

01:18:36 ► §

people are appalled by this stuff

01:18:39 ► §

I mean people who style themselves hardcore

01:18:42 ► §

after one pass near this just say yeah it did dissolve reality yes it

01:18:49 ► §

did blow my mind but they don’t come out of it clawing to do it again but I don’t say a

01:18:58 ► §

psychedelic has to be pleasant to do its work. What its mission is

01:19:06 ► §

is to dissolve boundaries

01:19:07 ► §

and conditioning.

01:19:11 ► §

But you’re using part of your definition

01:19:13 ► §

of being a psychedelic, too.

01:19:15 ► §

That was the other question I had.

01:19:16 ► §

So what categorizes that?

01:19:19 ► §

Well, there’s just a certain

01:19:22 ► §

clarity of vision

01:19:27 ► §

that if you get that

01:19:29 ► §

I think you have to call it psychedelic

01:19:31 ► §

for instance ketamine

01:19:34 ► §

ketamine doesn’t

01:19:36 ► §

isn’t a psychedelic

01:19:38 ► §

it’s a something

01:19:39 ► §

it messes with your mind for sure

01:19:42 ► §

and it certainly dissolves

01:19:44 ► §

boundaries and on and on and on but it occludes It messes with your mind, for sure, and it certainly dissolves boundaries

01:19:45 ► §

and on and on and on.

01:19:47 ► §

But it occludes in some way.

01:19:51 ► §

I mean, it is, after all, an anesthetic.

01:19:53 ► §

Its purpose is to knock you out.

01:19:56 ► §

If higher consciousness lies in the direction of anesthesia,

01:19:59 ► §

what is higher consciousness?

01:20:03 ► §

So, and… But the Salvia Divinorum,

01:20:09 ► §

and it’s used shamanically in Mexico,

01:20:14 ► §

and the plant is easily grown and transported.

01:20:18 ► §

I think it would be a fine notion

01:20:20 ► §

for people who are interested in all these things

01:20:22 ► §

to grow and cultivate this stuff

01:20:25 ► §

and come to terms with it.

01:20:33 ► §

It’s very interesting to me

01:20:35 ► §

that so late in this psychedelic game

01:20:39 ► §

an entire new compound

01:20:42 ► §

in an entire new family could be found

01:20:45 ► §

and of course now that it’s been found

01:20:47 ► §

they’re going into its botanical

01:20:49 ► §

sources with extremely

01:20:52 ► §

subtle

01:20:54 ► §

non-destructive analytical

01:20:57 ► §

methods like high pressure

01:21:00 ► §

liquid gas chromatography

01:21:02 ► §

and this sort of thing

01:21:03 ► §

and lo and behold,

01:21:06 ► §

there’s an entire family,

01:21:08 ► §

a little solar system,

01:21:10 ► §

of these diterpene compounds

01:21:13 ► §

that are psychoactive.

01:21:16 ► §

Well, what are these?

01:21:17 ► §

Are these the drugs of addiction and abuse of the future?

01:21:21 ► §

Or are they the source of new tranquilizers,

01:21:27 ► §

new treatments for mental illness nobody knows

01:21:29 ► §

it’s just sitting there

01:21:30 ► §

so if you’re looking for a career

01:21:34 ► §

in pharmacology or medical research

01:21:37 ► §

this is very hot at the moment

01:21:41 ► §

and if we needed to produce metric tons

01:21:43 ► §

of this material for any purpose

01:21:46 ► §

it could be easily done

01:21:48 ► §

there’s no theory

01:21:49 ► §

your perspective on the importance of

01:21:52 ► §

setting

01:21:52 ► §

and how did your view of that

01:21:56 ► §

evolve

01:21:57 ► §

well I think set and setting

01:22:00 ► §

are extremely important

01:22:02 ► §

just to review

01:22:04 ► §

you know

01:22:04 ► §

the setting is where you are when you

01:22:07 ► §

do it a psychedelic and the set is your mindset what you bring to it and these seem to be the

01:22:17 ► §

the the rule these are tim leary’s rules are back from the Harvard days and people abuse

01:22:25 ► §

these rules terribly and

01:22:28 ► §

almost always then get into trouble

01:22:31 ► §

this goes under the heading of don’t be an idiot

01:22:34 ► §

don’t be foolish

01:22:38 ► §

let’s talk about the setting

01:22:41 ► §

first of all

01:22:42 ► §

I think the worst setting for taking drugs

01:22:46 ► §

is complex social environments,

01:22:49 ► §

especially public social environments.

01:22:52 ► §

So in spite of the grand tradition to the contrary,

01:22:56 ► §

I think rock concerts,

01:23:01 ► §

LA free, yeah yeah heavy driving

01:23:05 ► §

you know

01:23:05 ► §

I’ve had people

01:23:06 ► §

ask me about

01:23:07 ► §

mushrooms or even

01:23:08 ► §

DMT

01:23:09 ► §

well if I take it

01:23:11 ► §

will I be able

01:23:12 ► §

to drive

01:23:12 ► §

well

01:23:14 ► §

what kind of

01:23:15 ► §

half wit

01:23:16 ► §

are you

01:23:17 ► §

you know

01:23:20 ► §

just give it a rest

01:23:22 ► §

for crying out loud

01:23:23 ► §

no

01:23:24 ► §

if you smoke DMT for those 10 minutes,

01:23:27 ► §

just leave your Ferrari parked, please.

01:23:31 ► §

Dosage of psilocybin, like you said before,

01:23:34 ► §

you know, improved visual acuity and those things.

01:23:36 ► §

So there you could argue that you do have an edge

01:23:39 ► §

in the perceptual space that could be.

01:23:43 ► §

I think you really have to know yourself

01:23:46 ► §

and your dose levels.

01:23:48 ► §

I mean, I’ve experimented over the years

01:23:50 ► §

because I’ve been at this for who knows how long,

01:23:53 ► §

so there’s been plenty of time to experiment.

01:23:56 ► §

There were times when I would just,

01:23:58 ► §

to see what it would do,

01:24:00 ► §

I would take half a gram of mushrooms a day

01:24:04 ► §

or one gram of mushrooms a day or one gram of mushrooms a day.

01:24:09 ► §

I hated all these states.

01:24:11 ► §

I quickly abandoned all these experiments

01:24:15 ► §

because all I could do with those kinds of doses

01:24:19 ► §

was it made me anxious.

01:24:21 ► §

It made me think a lot about the fact

01:24:23 ► §

that I wasn’t really high but it

01:24:26 ► §

was rougher than coffee and just was

01:24:30 ► §

kind of crazy making and so I I’m in

01:24:34 ► §

faith I believe in large doses rarely I

01:24:39 ► §

think that’s what’s effective and the

01:24:42 ► §

people want to tiptoe in if you you’re a tiptoe-inner,

01:24:47 ► §

back to the ashram for you.

01:24:50 ► §

This is no game for those who wish to tiptoe.

01:24:54 ► §

Because those are dangerous areas,

01:24:57 ► §

those shallow waters.

01:24:58 ► §

Most psychedelic people, I think,

01:25:02 ► §

would agree.

01:25:04 ► §

It’s not the high dose

01:25:06 ► §

that blasts your world

01:25:08 ► §

to smithereens that leaves

01:25:10 ► §

people upset and

01:25:12 ► §

confused that’s usually experienced

01:25:14 ► §

as a kind of liberation

01:25:16 ► §

what leaves people upset and

01:25:18 ► §

confused is to get half in

01:25:20 ► §

and half out and

01:25:22 ► §

not be able to contact the

01:25:24 ► §

transcendent but to have all their baggage

01:25:27 ► §

in there with them fully illuminated and then uh you know other people complicated i find other

01:25:35 ► §

people very complicating other people it just stands to reason are the most complicated objects in your universe and you know when i’m stoned on

01:25:47 ► §

seven or eight grams of psilocybin for me to be able to handle a chunk of orange

01:25:54 ► §

without getting excited to the point of hysteria is so let alone having somebody maybe want to

01:26:03 ► §

have sex with you or maybe want to discuss their bad trip with you

01:26:07 ► §

or maybe want to move from here down to the beach

01:26:11 ► §

and just say, you know,

01:26:13 ► §

go away.

01:26:15 ► §

Go away.

01:26:19 ► §

So do you recommend doing it alone?

01:26:22 ► §

What about a guy?

01:26:23 ► §

Well, I tend to recommend to do it alone.

01:26:29 ► §

But I know it’s dangerous advice.

01:26:33 ► §

And when I was young, it was a long time.

01:26:37 ► §

I can’t really even remember when it was that I settled in on that.

01:26:42 ► §

Because at first, when we encountered LSD

01:26:45 ► §

you would never have done it alone

01:26:47 ► §

I mean it was always

01:26:49 ► §

your friends, the party

01:26:51 ► §

the band

01:26:53 ► §

the something or other

01:26:55 ► §

but I just had too many

01:26:57 ► §

LSD trips like that

01:26:59 ► §

where I came down holding my head

01:27:01 ► §

saying you know

01:27:01 ► §

I’ve been fucked with basically

01:27:04 ► §

because I let other people into my head saying you know i’m i’ve been fucked with basically because i let other people

01:27:06 ► §

into my head and you know to me and maybe this is you know i am a double scorpio and reclusive

01:27:13 ► §

and all this you got to take it with a grain of salt but i remember times in berkeley when i would

01:27:19 ► §

take acid in my apartment on telegraph and then i would try to go to the med and I would get out

01:27:26 ► §

on the sidewalk and then maybe

01:27:28 ► §

the first person I’d pass

01:27:30 ► §

was sort of okay, sort of

01:27:32 ► §

normal looking, but then the

01:27:34 ► §

next person, and you say, oh

01:27:36 ► §

boy, you know, I shouldn’t be

01:27:38 ► §

out in public, you know

01:27:40 ► §

this is way, way, way, way

01:27:42 ► §

over, and the other

01:27:44 ► §

thing is,

01:27:47 ► §

and I don’t pretend to understand this,

01:27:50 ► §

but any psychedelic voyager will tell you this is true,

01:27:52 ► §

synchronicity goes mad on these things.

01:27:56 ► §

So you can maybe control synchronicity

01:28:00 ► §

if you’ve double-locked your doors,

01:28:02 ► §

unplugged your telephone,

01:28:04 ► §

and got your head down under the covers

01:28:07 ► §

it’s still pretty hard to manage

01:28:10 ► §

but if you go outside

01:28:13 ► §

bank robberies will be committed in front of you

01:28:17 ► §

your grandmother who lives in Hong Kong

01:28:20 ► §

will choose to visit unannounced that day

01:28:24 ► §

and endless until finally you just Hong Kong will choose to visit unannounced that day.

01:28:28 ► §

And endless until finally you just… So my approach, and on the guide question,

01:28:32 ► §

I think that until you’re really confident,

01:28:35 ► §

you shouldn’t do it alone.

01:28:37 ► §

But the guide should be so locked down and controlled

01:28:44 ► §

that my idea

01:28:46 ► §

of how to do the guide is

01:28:48 ► §

okay I’m going to take six grams of

01:28:50 ► §

mushrooms I will be in this

01:28:52 ► §

room here is

01:28:54 ► §

a closed door

01:28:55 ► §

you be on the other side

01:28:58 ► §

of this closed door

01:29:00 ► §

and if I ring

01:29:02 ► §

this bell three times

01:29:04 ► §

you may open the door a crack and say and if I ring this bell three times,

01:29:08 ► §

you may open the door a crack and say,

01:29:09 ► §

what?

01:29:13 ► §

That’s the guide.

01:29:16 ► §

The idea, I mean, I’ve heard people say,

01:29:18 ► §

you know, I took mushrooms

01:29:21 ► §

and I was just beginning to work it out

01:29:24 ► §

and then the guide said,

01:29:26 ► §

well, now remember, you wanted to work on some issues

01:29:29 ► §

while you were loaded.

01:29:31 ► §

Now, what about your impending gum surgery,

01:29:35 ► §

divorce, bankruptcy?

01:29:37 ► §

And he was saying,

01:29:39 ► §

you know, I was touching God.

01:29:43 ► §

Do you mind?

01:29:43 ► §

You know, I was touching God.

01:29:44 ► §

Do you mind?

01:29:50 ► §

So, yes, Kathleen.

01:29:53 ► §

There’s another thing about a person.

01:29:57 ► §

It should be someone that you value and trust.

01:29:58 ► §

You know, their integrity.

01:30:02 ► §

But preferably someone that you’re not emotionally involved with because you tend to come out and want to draw them in.

01:30:05 ► §

It distorts it.

01:30:08 ► §

That’s an interesting perspective, too.

01:30:10 ► §

Yeah.

01:30:11 ► §

Now, there is another approach.

01:30:14 ► §

People who think, you know, having marital difficulties,

01:30:19 ► §

everybody should drop acid and call in the kids.

01:30:23 ► §

But I think you can just i don’t see it as a i i

01:30:28 ► §

see it as a holy function not if you know psychotherapy can do this or mdma can do this

01:30:37 ► §

we have other tools for doing this but these psychedelics it’s it’s, it’s like using, I don’t know, some enormous instrumentality

01:30:49 ► §

for some trivial thing. So that’s a lot about setting.

01:31:00 ► §

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon, where people are changing their lives one

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thought at a time.

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Before I make any other comments, I’d like to point out that this talk was given in 1997,

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and at the time, as you heard Terrence say, there actually wasn’t very much reliable information about psychedelic substances available on the Internet.

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However, things today are vastly different, Thank you. for this source of information. I know many of the people involved with Arrowwood, and you can trust their information on the website implicitly.

01:31:49 ► §

And one more thing here.

01:31:51 ► §

We just heard Terrence say that Salvia divinorum is legal,

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which it was back in 1997,

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and it still is unscheduled under the federal law.

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However, there are many states that do regulate this plant,

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and again, you can find the up-to-date information about that at arrowid.org.

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Now, each week I try to extract something from these Terrence McKenna talks that,

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for one reason or another, tickles my mind. And this week was a real winner for me.

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Now, if this little tidbit slipped by you, well, that’s very understandable.

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However, if you had an aha moment and an aha moment with a big grin on your face like me,

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well, then you may be more like me than is really good for you.

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But this week’s little factoid about Terrence McKenna is one that I truly love.

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And I did check this out as best I can, and it appears to be true that Terrence McKenna is one that I truly love. And I did check this out as best I can,

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and it appears to be true that Terrence McKenna, Captain Beefheart, and Frank Zappa all went to

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the same high school. Not at the same time, but definitely the same school. For those three minds

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to go through a public high school in the U.S. without being completely shut down and put in boxes,

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well, it most certainly was an exceptional place.

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I guess that’s all I can say.

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Now, Terrence’s mention of Country Joe and the fish brought back to mind

01:33:17 ► §

this wonderful woman who, back in the day, was Country Joe’s wife.

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And it was she who came up with that meme about smoking banana peels to get high.

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She never really got proper credit for that,

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nor did anyone ever learn her recipe for making DMT in a bathtub.

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Actually, now that I think of it, for some people,

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maybe not us guys in the military at the time,

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but for some people, the 60s were actually a pretty good time,

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at least for a few

01:33:45 ► §

years. Now, I didn’t know Country Joe’s wife back then, but later, when we did get to know one

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another a little bit, I couldn’t get enough of her great stories. And now that I’m thinking of it,

01:33:58 ► §

at the end of today’s podcast, I’m going to play Country Joe’s great anti-war anthem.

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I first heard it when I was still on active duty with the Navy

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and had already returned from a Vietnam deployment.

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And as the next few years progressed,

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there were many times when I got together with some vet friends

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and after a few beers, we’d all join in the chorus and sing.

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And it’s one, two, three, what are we fighting for?

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Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn.

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The next stop is Vietnam. And it’s five, six, seven, what are we fighting for? Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn. The next stop is Vietnam.

01:34:27 ► §

And it’s five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates.

01:34:30 ► §

Well, there ain’t no time to wonder why.

01:34:32 ► §

Whoopee, we’re all gonna die.

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And I realize that today that may sound somewhat inappropriate.

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However, just ask your military friends.

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You know, your warrior friends, and I’m

01:34:45 ► §

sure that a few of them are going to tell you that without a little black humor, they never would

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have made it. I hope that when we begin podcasting the Psychedelic Salon 2.0 programs, that some of

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them will feature today’s protest songs. We aren’t going to hear them on mainstream media, but I’m

01:35:03 ► §

sure that today’s military veterans have their own underground singers who are bringing the essence of today’s wars to their audiences.

01:35:11 ► §

And I’d be shocked if there wasn’t a vibrant group of musicians creating music for the Black Lives Matter projects.

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We need to learn about these musicians and learn their songs and sing them out like we did in the 60s.

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You know, laughter and music are two weapons that the screwheads in the government can’t stop.

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By the way, I’m sure that you’ve noticed all of the buzz about artificial intelligence,

01:35:35 ► §

about AI and bots, lately it’s been all over the place in the mainstream press.

01:35:40 ► §

Well, we just now heard Terence McKenna talking about Bach’s back in 1997.

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He was truly ahead of his time.

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Do you also remember in the early part of this talk that Terence said our imaginations,

01:35:55 ► §

while in a psychedelic state, are possibly communicating with alien intelligences?

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Well, it seems to me that this could be another way of thinking about

01:36:05 ► §

what some of us from time to time have experienced as entities while in a deep psychedelic state.

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Until now, I hadn’t actually given much thought as to what those entities could be,

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if they were in fact real and not just some wild projection of my own mind.

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The few such experiences that I have had were so far out of the range of my normal thought processes

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that they certainly did seem to have their origins somewhere outside of me.

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But since I know that many of us sometimes think that our brains may be more like an antenna than a computer,

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then it’s kind of fun to think that perhaps these entities

01:36:45 ► §

are possibly like our cosmic pen pals

01:36:48 ► §

whom we can tune in when we’re in the right frame of mind

01:36:51 ► §

with the right molecules fitting the right receptors.

01:36:55 ► §

Well, at least these things are fun to talk about late at night,

01:36:58 ► §

especially with a good supply of cannabis at hand.

01:37:02 ► §

Another McKenna rap that came up this time,

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but which we haven’t heard for a while here in the salon,

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was the one about asking the mushroom to show itself for what it was,

01:37:13 ► §

and then he mentioned how the black drapes appeared and so on.

01:37:16 ► §

Well, as dramatic as that story is when Terrence tells it,

01:37:21 ► §

I have to admit that many years before I first heard him tell that story,

01:37:26 ► §

I had my own experience of an entity revealing itself for what it was.

01:37:31 ► §

And as strange as this may be, there actually were black drapes involved in that experience.

01:37:38 ► §

Now, I won’t go into the details, but I basically shut the whole experience down

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because it was becoming so intense.

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And interestingly, whatever that essence was, as soon as I said enough, it, well, it backed down.

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Nonetheless, well, it’s not something that I’d ever want to experience again.

01:37:56 ► §

And yet it wasn’t really frightening in the normal sense.

01:37:59 ► §

It was just an experience of so much light and power and energy that it was more than I wanted to become involved with.

01:38:06 ► §

At the time, it seemed that moving further into the experience would risk permanent madness or something.

01:38:13 ► §

And if you’re wondering what I was on, well, of all things, it was ayahuasca.

01:38:18 ► §

Oh, before I forget it, last week I talked about the new documentary, Shamans of the Global Village.

01:38:26 ► §

it, last week I talked about the new documentary, Shamans of the Global Village. Well, I’m not sure, but I’m pretty sure I think that it was in that movie where I learned for the

01:38:30 ► §

very first time that there actually is a huge difference between what is commonly called

01:38:36 ► §

ayahuasca and what is called yaje. Up until now, I bought into the line that yaje was

01:38:42 ► §

just another word for ayahuasca. That seemed to be what everybody said.

01:38:46 ► §

Well, in a way, that’s correct.

01:38:49 ► §

But while the primary psychoactive in Ayahuasca is NNDMT,

01:38:55 ► §

in Yahé, apparently, it is 5-MeO-DMT.

01:38:58 ► §

And that, if correct, can certainly explain the negative reaction of Burroughs’ friends in his Yahé letters.

01:39:07 ► §

And I think this could also be an interesting investigation for a dissertation,

01:39:12 ► §

perhaps for someone who wants to establish herself or himself in the scientific psychedelic community.

01:39:19 ► §

Now, early on in today’s talk, we heard Terrence say, and I quote, I think that every single one of us should be learning how to expand our communications skills.

01:39:30 ► §

It’s not about rejecting the media or the marketplace.

01:39:34 ► §

It’s about changing your relationship to it.

01:39:37 ► §

Do not consume. Produce. Inject your own art. End quote.

01:39:44 ► §

And that, I believe, is the ultimate function of our fellow salonners,

01:39:48 ► §

who have begun to come together to discuss what we think should be the future of the 2.0 version of the salon.

01:39:55 ► §

It’s still a very small group, so if you want to have your voice heard on these issues,

01:40:00 ► §

well, now is a really good time to join our team.

01:40:03 ► §

issues, well, now is a really good time to join our team.

01:40:13 ► §

Just go to psychedelicsalon20, that’s all one word, lowercase, psychedelicsalon2.signup.team and register for our slack.com project team.

01:40:18 ► §

And by the way, you don’t have to be a geek to help.

01:40:21 ► §

Right now, we’re just at the stage where we’re kicking around a number of issues and

01:40:25 ► §

ideas that we have for the future. In fact, maybe you’re interested in moving forward on Terrence’s

01:40:31 ► §

idea for a prize for the best psychedelic simulation and virtual reality. Well, if so,

01:40:37 ► §

then let’s hear your ideas about it. Well, that’s going to be it for today. So in a minute here,

01:40:44 ► §

or a few seconds actually, I’m going to play Country Joe for you.

01:40:47 ► §

And I’d like you to join me in singing along with Country Joe and the fish for the anthem that they made famous at Woodstock.

01:40:55 ► §

At the time, I was still in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean searching for the lost submarine USS Scorpion, and so I missed Woodstock.

01:41:03 ► §

But I didn’t miss the spirit of that festival,

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nor did you, I should add. Otherwise, you wouldn’t even be here in the salon with me right now.

01:41:11 ► §

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space. you big, strong men. Uncle Sam needs your help again.

01:41:26 ► §

Got himself in a terrible jam.

01:41:28 ► §

Way down yonder in Vietnam.

01:41:30 ► §

Put down your books and pick up a gun.

01:41:33 ► §

We’re going to have a whole lot of fun.

01:41:34 ► §

And it’s one, two, three.

01:41:37 ► §

What are we fighting for?

01:41:38 ► §

Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn.

01:41:41 ► §

The next stop is Vietnam.

01:41:43 ► §

And it’s five, six, seven. Open up the pearly gates. We’ll be right back. the army with the tools of the trade. Just don’t be afraid to get the drop to bomb. We’re dropping on the P.S. car. And it’s

01:42:06 ► §

one, two, three. What are

01:42:08 ► §

we fighting for? Don’t ask

01:42:10 ► §

me. I don’t give a damn.

01:42:11 ► §

The next stop is Vietnam.

01:42:14 ► §

And it’s five, six,

01:42:16 ► §

seven, open up the pearly gates.

01:42:18 ► §

Well, ain’t no time

01:42:20 ► §

to wonder why. Whoopee! We’re all

01:42:22 ► §

going to die. Now come on

01:42:24 ► §

generals, let’s move fast.

01:42:26 ► §

Your big chance is here at last.

01:42:28 ► §

Now you can go out and get those

01:42:29 ► §

reds, because the only good commie is one

01:42:31 ► §

instead. And you know that peace can

01:42:33 ► §

only be won when you’re blowing them all the kingdom.

01:42:35 ► §

Come on, sing it! One, two,

01:42:38 ► §

three, what have we fought before?

01:42:40 ► §

Don’t ask, don’t give

01:42:42 ► §

them. Louder!

01:42:43 ► §

Hear them!

01:42:47 ► §

And five, six, sir Open up early, baby

01:42:49 ► §

Well, I ain’t no time to wonder why

01:42:52 ► §

We’re all born to die

01:42:54 ► §

Listen, people, I don’t know how you expect to ever stop the war

01:42:58 ► §

If you can’t sing any better than that

01:42:59 ► §

There’s about 300,000 of you fuckers out there

01:43:02 ► §

I want you to start singing

01:43:04 ► §

Come on.

01:43:05 ► §

And it’s one, two, three.

01:43:07 ► §

What are we fighting for?

01:43:09 ► §

Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn.

01:43:11 ► §

The next stop is Vietnam.

01:43:13 ► §

And it’s five, six, seven.

01:43:15 ► §

What a place.

01:43:17 ► §

Well, I ain’t no time to wonder why.

01:43:20 ► §

I’m not going to die.

01:43:22 ► §

Now come on, mothers of the land.

01:43:25 ► §

Pack your boys off to Vietnam. Come on, fathers, don’t hesitate. Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

01:43:26 ► §

Woo!

01:43:27 ► §

Woo!

01:43:28 ► §

Woo!

01:43:29 ► §

Woo!

01:43:30 ► §

Woo!

01:43:31 ► §

Woo!

01:43:32 ► §

Woo!

01:43:33 ► §

Woo!

01:43:34 ► §

Woo!

01:43:35 ► §

Woo!

01:43:36 ► §

Woo!

01:43:37 ► §

Woo!

01:43:38 ► §

Woo!

01:43:39 ► §

Woo!

01:43:40 ► §

Woo!

01:43:41 ► §

Woo!

01:43:42 ► §

Woo!

01:43:43 ► §

Woo!

01:43:44 ► §

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! See, I’m dunking again. Next stop is Vietnam. And it’s 5, 6, 7,

01:43:46 ► §

Oh, how perfect.

01:43:48 ► §

Well, I ain’t gonna lie.

01:43:50 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:51 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:51 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:52 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:53 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:53 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:53 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:54 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:54 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:54 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:54 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my,

01:43:55 ► §

I’m gonna be my, Martin, please.