Program Notes

Guest speaker: Terence McKenna

McKennaMush01.jpg

[NOTE: All quotations are by Terence McKenna.]

“History is like self-reflection through the medium of language propelling itself into self-recognition.”

“Clearly, what is happening, I think, is there is a kind of global emergence of a new mental order.”

“The central figure in the archaic revival is the shaman.”

“We are caught in a tremendous historical crisis. And what we lack, in this crisis, is consciousness, whatever that means, the ability to integrate data about the situation we are in.”

“We are like coral animals in a vast reef of excreted technological material that is wired for solid state data transfer.”

“Notice that the whole story of Eden is the story of the struggle over a woman’s relationship to a psychoactive plant.”

“The reason I am so passionately committed to the psychedelic thing is because I see it as radical, and if this is not the moment for radical solutions, what is?”

“What we need to change is our minds, that’s the part that’s doing us dirt and dragging us under. How can we change our minds.”

Book mentioned in this podcast
The Great Drug War: And Rational Proposals To Turn The Tide
Arnold S. Trebach

Previous Episode

369 - Timothy & Terence

Next Episode

371 - Civil Rights In Cyberspace

Similar Episodes

Transcript

00:00:00

Greetings from Cyberdelic Space.

00:00:20

This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:24

This is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

00:00:34

And with me virtually here in Cyberdelic Space are some fellow salonners who have recently sent a donation to the salon to pay for our monthly expenses.

00:00:47

And these wonderful people are, first of all, our frequent donor, Stabila, and Tom, Jose, William, Michael, and we also received a very nice donation from Nicholas M.

00:00:52

So collectively, you have all covered the entire month’s expenses for the month of September,

00:00:53

and I thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

00:00:57

So now, here at long last,

00:00:59

is the podcast that I started working on, well, several weeks ago,

00:01:04

and then I first put it aside for the Timothy and Terrence program that I podcast just before this one.

00:01:11

But on the day that I planned on posting this program, I came down with another one of those head colds.

00:01:16

And I’m only kind of getting over it today.

00:01:19

So, well, that’s my excuse.

00:01:22

Sorry about that.

00:01:28

well, that’s my excuse. Sorry about that. Anyway, the talk that I’m about to play right now is the next talk that Terrence McKenna gave in a series that I started posting a few weeks back.

00:01:34

And if I’m not mistaken, this talk must have taken place on or about the evening of June 5th, 1991.

00:01:41

5th, 1991.

00:01:49

Modeling, mathematical modeling of process.

00:01:54

And, of course, if you’re a modeler of process, the most challenging process there is to model is human history,

00:02:01

because it is the sum total of a vast number of consciously manipulated variables.

00:02:10

So modelers look at human history. They have for a long, long time Herodotus had a theory

00:02:19

of history, Hesiod had a theory of history, Marx, Vico, so forth.

00:02:27

I think what moves me to talk about this this evening

00:02:31

is the fact that the world just seems quite crazy at the moment.

00:02:40

We seem to have gone over some kind of cusp or some kind of tightening of the gyre

00:02:49

in terms of the human collectivity

00:02:54

just beginning to come apart

00:02:56

on the New York Times this morning

00:03:00

there’s a picture of Khomeini’s funeral in Tehran

00:03:03

a picture of three million people involved in mass mourning.

00:03:09

And if you can’t get 100,000 people into the streets for your point of view,

00:03:14

you must not be trying these days.

00:03:18

Crowds of less than a million hardly count in the last few weeks.

00:03:29

a minion hardly count in the last few weeks. So, you know, philosophy is supposed to ask the question, what is going on? And then possibly shed some light on that or create probes which

00:03:40

somehow act to illuminate some part of the historical process.

00:03:47

So I wanted to talk about this this evening

00:03:51

and make a couple of points initially

00:03:56

and then sort of overview the situation

00:04:01

and see if there’s a reason for hope

00:04:03

or a reason for concern. And just to

00:04:11

try and decondition ourselves for a moment from some of our ordinary assumptions about

00:04:18

history and planetary crisis and try and think about it

00:04:26

from a slightly larger point of view.

00:04:28

The first point to consider

00:04:31

is the brevity of history.

00:04:38

There’s a kind of recidivist faction

00:04:42

in occult thought

00:04:43

that is tremendously impressed

00:04:46

by how old everything is

00:04:49

and they want to push back the dates on everything

00:04:53

and say that the pyramids are 50,000 years old

00:04:57

Lake Titicaca 135,000

00:05:01

this is occult archaeology the truth

00:05:07

that is revealed by

00:05:11

you know consistent scientific analysis

00:05:15

of sites around the world

00:05:17

poses the question of

00:05:19

how did it all happen so quickly

00:05:22

the brevity of human history,

00:05:27

that it’s happened in basically 1,500 generations.

00:05:33

It’s happened in the last 35,000 years,

00:05:37

most of it in the last 10,000 years.

00:05:40

It’s some kind of breakaway process in our species

00:05:46

which we, because we only live 80 years

00:05:50

tend to take for granted

00:05:54

or at least tend to struggle to come to terms with

00:05:57

I mean, what else can you do?

00:06:00

but the overwhelming fact of it

00:06:05

is that it is, on the scale of the life of the planet,

00:06:11

a process as ephemeral as a lightning strike.

00:06:16

You know, it’s just a flash, 35,000 years.

00:06:20

I mean, life has been around 3.5 billion years.

00:06:25

That’s a million times longer.

00:06:29

So here we are, embedded in what must then be seen

00:06:35

as an extremely improbable set of circumstances, human history.

00:06:42

So what is it? it’s some kind of

00:06:48

breakaway process

00:06:50

in the language forming capacity

00:06:53

of the species

00:06:55

that somehow command of symbols

00:07:00

and expansion of recall

00:07:03

and coordination of imagery and all of these high-grade manipulations

00:07:09

of data are taking place to create for the first time a new kind of order in the universe.

00:07:20

It’s epigenetic order. That means it is not coded into DNA

00:07:26

it is not carried along by biology

00:07:29

it is

00:07:31

ephemeral

00:07:34

epiphenomenal to biology

00:07:37

dependent on it but in some sense more enduring

00:07:40

it’s alphabets, codes, language

00:07:44

graven stone, magnetic tape, books, speech,

00:07:50

dance, ritual. All of these things are epigenetic information transfer. This began to tear loose. We have a flute that’s 25,000 years old.

00:08:10

Some modern thinkers on the emergence of language put it at about 35,000 years ago, yesterday.

00:08:15

And that adaptation began a cascade of cultural effects

00:08:24

that we have yet to come to grips with.

00:08:28

I mean, we are propelled by it.

00:08:30

It’s as though, you know,

00:08:32

the very slow-rising, smooth-surfaced wave

00:08:36

of the hominid ontogeny

00:08:39

that had moved forward for millions of years

00:08:42

suddenly began to encounter turbulence and to

00:08:46

break apart into this much more complex situation that required coding and

00:08:54

reinforced coding and so set us up for this phenomenon which is taken over the

00:09:02

planet and which has knitted everything together now

00:09:05

and that’s the next major point that I want to talk about

00:09:09

that when you stand off

00:09:13

from this planetary process

00:09:15

and try to get a generalized

00:09:19

objective handle

00:09:23

on what is going on

00:09:25

you have to speak in very general terms

00:09:28

and for me it comes down to saying

00:09:30

what appears to be going on

00:09:33

is that there is what I call

00:09:36

borrowing the term from Whitehead

00:09:38

concrescence

00:09:39

that everything is being pushed

00:09:43

toward a state of greater and greater density, compactedness, connectedness, integration into itself.

00:09:54

You see this as you look at the whole history of the universe. if we believe the myth of science, is born in an explosion of such power

00:10:06

that there are not even atomic systems

00:10:09

because the basic constituents of matter

00:10:13

cannot settle down around and form orbital systems.

00:10:18

Only after the universe has cooled substantially

00:10:21

do you get atomic chemistry.

00:10:24

Still later, after more cooling, you get atomic chemistry. Still later, after more cooling,

00:10:27

you get molecular chemistry.

00:10:30

And then, after a long period

00:10:32

in which molecular chemistry

00:10:33

works its permutations,

00:10:35

you get life.

00:10:38

But each one of these stages

00:10:40

of advancing complexity

00:10:43

occurs more rapidly

00:10:45

than the stages which preceded it.

00:10:48

In other words, the universe viewed in total

00:10:52

can be seen as a kind of

00:10:55

condensing apparatus for something

00:10:58

which I’ve so far called complexity

00:11:01

or novelty. And life is the most

00:11:04

recent manifestation of it

00:11:06

on a three billion year scale.

00:11:09

Culture is the most recent manifestation of it

00:11:12

on a million year scale.

00:11:14

And electronically integrated global culture

00:11:17

is the 20th century manifestation of it.

00:11:20

Well, it means that history is like

00:11:25

self-reflection

00:11:27

through the medium of language

00:11:30

propelling itself

00:11:32

into

00:11:33

self-recognition.

00:11:36

And this process happens very

00:11:37

quickly. What does it

00:11:40

lead to? This is the

00:11:41

question, and I think

00:11:42

in looking at what’s

00:11:46

going on this week it seems that

00:11:48

we have turned a corner

00:11:51

in terms of this density of

00:11:54

complexification and that

00:11:57

sooner or later or slowly and

00:12:00

bit by bit people are beginning to realize

00:12:04

that there is some kind of global,

00:12:09

integrated global process of unfolding

00:12:13

that is taking place,

00:12:15

that human history is not owned by anybody,

00:12:19

not the major banks,

00:12:21

not the Japanese,

00:12:23

not CBS.

00:12:24

It is actually out of control or not in the control of any integrated group of human beings.

00:12:34

But that it is not the existential model of history that is taught in the universities

00:12:46

which is, I mean wrap your mind around this

00:12:49

the model of history taught in the universities is

00:12:52

that history is what they call trendlessly fluctuating

00:12:57

the only phenomenon they are willing to admit

00:13:03

is trendlessly fluctuating.

00:13:07

But it isn’t.

00:13:08

Clearly what is happening, I think, is there is a kind of global emergence of a new mental order.

00:13:21

order and it’s

00:13:25

here there is a phenomenon

00:13:27

that is very brief and short

00:13:29

lived I think called the new age

00:13:32

but it

00:13:33

is a part of

00:13:35

this global

00:13:37

unfolding and what this

00:13:39

global unfolding is about

00:13:41

well if we

00:13:43

had to create a name for it which you have to have a banner if

00:13:47

you’re going to March is the archaic revival so I wanted to present the notion of the archaic

00:13:58

revival as a kind of metaphor into which you can pour the events of the daily paper and have it perhaps make a

00:14:07

little bit more sense. The notion is this. It’s that when cultures hit moments of great crisis,

00:14:18

they go into a kind of spasm because the old decision-making processes,

00:14:26

the old solutions don’t deliver the goods.

00:14:30

And by reflex, without reflection,

00:14:35

the response of societies in crisis when this happens

00:14:39

is to reach backward into time for an older model.

00:14:44

When we see this in so-called primitive societies,

00:14:48

i.e. preliterate societies,

00:14:51

anthropologists call it a revitalization movement.

00:14:54

It means you look back into the past

00:14:56

and you choose a set of circumstances in the past

00:15:01

that seem to shed light on your predicament

00:15:03

and then you culturally work to realize them.

00:15:08

The last time this happened for us was

00:15:10

at the breakup of the medieval world

00:15:14

when the church was seen through the wars of religion

00:15:19

to no longer be a direct pipeline to God

00:15:22

and people were sort of at loose ends about all this

00:15:26

they reached back to classical Greece and Rome

00:15:35

and created classicism

00:15:38

I mean classicism is a creation of the 15th century

00:15:41

it comes a thousand years

00:15:44

you know 1500 years

00:15:46

after the civilizations

00:15:47

it apes

00:15:48

and yet they created then

00:15:51

classic architecture

00:15:52

neo-roman law

00:15:54

so forth and so on

00:15:56

and that worked up until

00:15:58

the 20th century

00:16:02

and sometime in the 20th century or late in the 19th century and sometime in the 20th century

00:16:05

or late in the 19th century

00:16:07

depending on how keen and nose you have

00:16:11

there was the smell of burning flesh

00:16:15

in the air and it was clear

00:16:17

that the ideals of the enlightenment were

00:16:20

not going to serve people like Alfred Jury

00:16:24

in 1885

00:16:25

and L’Entremont who said that he thirsted for the kind of beauty

00:16:32

that arises when a bicycle meets a sewing machine on an operating table.

00:16:39

And, you know, there were anticipations of the 20th century.

00:16:46

The surrealists are not given their due in all of this.

00:16:53

Freud gets a lot of credit, but he was cribbing from the surrealists like crazy, you may be sure.

00:17:01

In fact, major portions of the cultural adventure of the 20th century, I’m suggesting to you, can be seen as obeying these rules that I’ve just laid out for you about a revitalization movement. movement and that the archaic revival so great is the paralysis

00:17:25

of our society so appalling

00:17:28

the contradictions that have been unleashed

00:17:31

by 500 years of the unrestrained

00:17:34

practice of science that

00:17:37

in order to

00:17:39

advance a metaphor which has

00:17:43

even a hope of commanding the attention of the global mind

00:17:49

we have to reach back far back not to dynastic egypt not to uh you know the mussolini like

00:17:58

states of ur and chaldea none of that but actually back to the dawn, to a period before the entire set of institutions and psychological ratios that characterize our personalities and our civilizations had had a chance to arise. Now McLuhan, who is much discredited and sneered at but very few people

00:18:29

actually read or understand him, was keen to make the point that electronic culture

00:18:37

would be tribal culture, that it would be symbol-ruled culture, that it would be culture of the immediate image,

00:18:48

the integration of human-machine interfacing,

00:18:56

the progress in what is called virtual reality technology,

00:19:01

which is technologies that create the illusions

00:19:04

of artificial modes of existence

00:19:07

the in short migration together of the uh two great manichaean opposites in our society cybernetics and pharmacology this is hard upon us

00:19:25

we are

00:19:27

this compressence

00:19:30

this compression of novelty that I spoke of

00:19:34

seems to me to be a process

00:19:37

which is beginning to slam doors

00:19:40

on all kinds of cheerful

00:19:42

futurist scenarios that have emerged from the rationalist side of management

00:19:50

because, you see, their tendency to extrapolate trends into the future

00:19:57

is completely bedeviled by the tendency of everything to be influenced by everything else,

00:20:05

everything to be self-reinforcing,

00:20:08

things to proceed not asymptotically but logarithmically,

00:20:12

and in short, the timescales seem too compressed

00:20:17

for any sort of ordinary management solution to come into play.

00:20:34

Well, what then is going on well being an optimist and also a a sort of a weekend dabbler in shamanism and that sort of thing.

00:20:50

What you have to rely on in the face of a question like that is a vision.

00:20:54

What is going on?

00:21:00

Or how can it work in this situation and have a happy ending?

00:21:02

That’s the thing and what I’ve come up with

00:21:06

is the notion that

00:21:08

we need to construct

00:21:13

a model that operates

00:21:15

on many different levels

00:21:17

it should be able to operate as an elbow in the ribs

00:21:22

it should be able to operate

00:21:24

as a set of

00:21:25

integrated mathematical formulae

00:21:28

it should be able to operate as an obscene joke

00:21:31

I don’t have an obscene joke

00:21:36

but I’ll stop and tell you

00:21:39

a story which amused me

00:21:40

do you know what you get when you cross the godfather

00:21:44

with a professor of semiotics?

00:21:48

No one knows.

00:21:50

You get someone who makes you an offer

00:21:53

that you can’t understand.

00:22:00

I hope I’m not that person.

00:22:03

Anyway, what I’ve come up with on the one-hour lecture to the community at Esalen level

00:22:12

of the distillation of the quintessence of the essence of the alchemical, whatchamacallit,

00:22:20

is basically goes something like this.

00:22:24

basically goes something like this.

00:22:31

There is, there was, there always has been something which has been called many things,

00:22:35

but in order to avoid misunderstanding,

00:22:39

I will use new words for it,

00:22:43

and I’ll call it the transcendental object

00:22:46

in hyperspace

00:22:48

and what it is

00:22:51

is it is your heart’s desire

00:22:54

it is your heart’s desire

00:22:57

but it is the transcendental object in hyperspace

00:23:01

and you don’t even know what your heart’s desire is and it is fractal which

00:23:08

means it is multi-leveled self-integrating refracting reflecting it has many densities it

00:23:15

has many aspects so it is not only you but it is your dyad, it is your class, race, country, whatever.

00:23:28

It can be cut any of these ways.

00:23:32

The transcendental object in hyperspace, and it imparts telos.

00:23:39

Telos is a fancy Greek word that means purpose.

00:23:43

It imparts telos to being.

00:23:48

It acts as an attractor,

00:23:51

to use a word which is now current in dynamics.

00:23:56

It acts as an attractor,

00:23:59

meaning everything swivels toward it in its vicinity.

00:24:04

And it is a way of thinking of human history

00:24:09

is to think of it as a kind of shockwave

00:24:14

which precedes the eminence of this transcendental object.

00:24:20

Now in Christian theology,

00:24:21

this transcendental object is called the eschaton.

00:24:26

It means the end thing.

00:24:28

The end thing.

00:24:32

It is a mystery beyond knowing.

00:24:34

It has to be.

00:24:35

It’s the umbilicus.

00:24:40

It’s where the whole linguistic thing is tied together. together it’s the shockwave of the

00:24:46

presence of this thing in the history of

00:24:49

the planet is what is causing human

00:24:53

history it’s as though there were

00:24:55

leakage from the future event backward

00:25:02

in time one percent, something like that.

00:25:05

It’s basically, you know,

00:25:07

the feeling before an electrical storm

00:25:09

when the air is still

00:25:11

and the sky turns yellow

00:25:13

and everything is,

00:25:14

and you know it’s coming.

00:25:16

Well, that’s human history.

00:25:18

But it lasts 10,000 years

00:25:20

and within it, the monkeys go nuts

00:25:23

because the nearness of the transcendental object

00:25:28

is shedding symbols into the unconscious which are causing religious systems dreams messianic careers, dynastic visionaries, empire builders,

00:25:47

all kinds of people who are in tune with this transcendental object

00:25:56

are attempting to manipulate their own time and space,

00:26:00

their own lives, their own armies and what have you,

00:26:09

to create the paradisical end state,

00:26:11

which they can feel as eminent,

00:26:16

but which they just can’t quite get a handle on,

00:26:19

the provinces or the intellectuals or somebody,

00:26:20

to make it happen.

00:26:30

All religions, all governmental schemes, all of our personal dreams are reflections,

00:26:46

micro-reflections, micro-tonal resonances and echoes of the sum total of this transcendental object. And we can’t say what it is.

00:26:50

And I’m not, by leaving that question open,

00:26:52

trying to suggest that it’s God,

00:26:57

at least not God in the ordinary sense I understand it,

00:27:03

which is that force which hung the stars like lamps in heaven.

00:27:06

I don’t believe it must be that.

00:27:11

But I can entertain the notion that biology,

00:27:16

somehow life, in order to be what it is,

00:27:22

operates in dimensions that are completely hidden to us in our particular slice of the energy flow

00:27:26

and the time matrix and everything.

00:27:29

We do not understand what we are.

00:27:32

We do not understand what life is.

00:27:36

We do not understand what mind is.

00:27:40

We haven’t the faintest notion what time is.

00:27:43

Don’t think that because some guy in a sweater

00:27:46

can write some fishy equations on the blackboard

00:27:50

that anybody has a grip on what is going on.

00:27:54

This cold fusion thing

00:27:58

should have been a real lesson to us peasants

00:28:02

because the lords of the high castle still haven’t gotten their desks

00:28:08

straightened up and you know there was an ugly scramble there i mean it turns out that if you

00:28:16

claim with enough force then well nobody really does know what the laws of the universe are so what are you going to do? Well, this notion that we are caught up

00:28:29

in the emergence of some kind of transcendental

00:28:32

something or other

00:28:34

into the space-time stream of the planet

00:28:37

the major evidence for it, you see

00:28:41

is ourselves

00:28:43

that we have

00:28:46

after only a thousand years of science

00:28:49

a reasonable handle on

00:28:52

the notion that there may be planets

00:28:55

with meadows and rivers and brooks

00:28:58

and birds and locusts and seals

00:29:00

but we are the aliens

00:29:04

here, we are the aliens here we are the apparent artifacts of a higher order of

00:29:10

intelligence we are the active force on the planet that is carrying out its program in dimensions

00:29:20

completely ontologically different from everything else that is going on.

00:29:28

Well, what does this mean? How are we to take ourselves? What is it all about? Well, I think

00:29:36

that why the archaic revival notion works is because all this

00:29:45

was pretty well understood

00:29:48

and in place and in the bone

00:29:52

before anybody moved out of stonework

00:29:55

and into chip dantlers.

00:29:58

This has to do with the organization

00:30:01

of ourselves.

00:30:03

It is primary and precedes

00:30:08

all the affectations of history.

00:30:13

So this is what we primarily are.

00:30:18

And this, what it boils down to,

00:30:23

is a relationship to the planet that has been somehow perturbed, somehow perturbed, probably because the language-forming thing was some kind of experiment on the part of nature and, you know, the judgment isn’t in yet.

00:30:47

I mean, it is this omni-adaptive sort of ability

00:30:53

that allows you to grapple with any situation,

00:30:57

but perhaps too well

00:30:59

because you exceed the bounds of the context

00:31:01

and then begin to wre wreck havoc over things.

00:31:06

The central figure in the archaic revival is the shaman.

00:31:12

And my interest in all of this led me to spend a lot of time in the Amazon basin

00:31:19

where there is a highly evolved hallucinogenic plant shamanism.

00:31:25

And the power and peculiarity of those experiences

00:31:31

convinced me that this probably was the primary source

00:31:38

of the impulse to religio in the human being.

00:31:43

That these ecstasies, these synesthesia states of boundary dissolution,

00:31:51

these visionary transformations of eidetic material seem to me the only phenomenon in nature that could bear the weight of the claims made by the practitioners of the shamanic experience.

00:32:14

That there is in fact in human beings some kind of appalling, vast dimension of transcendental otherness

00:32:27

that is as baffling to a 20th century psychotherapist

00:32:34

as it was to a Magdalenian shaman or a shaman of the Amazon basin today.

00:32:39

I mean, we are the great mystery.

00:32:49

And this sort of brings me full circle because I mentioned that my other concern

00:32:51

was rescuing Indos for psychotherapy.

00:32:54

You know, we are caught in a tremendous historical crisis

00:32:59

and what we lack in this crisis is consciousness, whatever that means, the ability to integrate data about the situation that we are in.

00:33:15

You know, Whitehead said, understanding is the apperception of pattern as such.

00:33:21

I mean, if you see a pattern and how people are seated in this room you

00:33:25

understand something if you see another pattern you understand yet more a

00:33:30

perception of pattern is what understanding is these how the

00:33:37

synaginic in dull plants that were integrated into the human diet as human populations developed on the grasslands of Africa

00:33:51

actually acted as catalysts for the language-forming ability in human beings.

00:34:00

Small mouth noises linked to a rapid fire ability

00:34:05

to control and exchange syntax

00:34:08

becomes a kind of telepathy

00:34:11

you know

00:34:12

and people say wow what is this

00:34:15

and what can we do with it

00:34:17

and then you’re just off and running

00:34:19

a possible transformation of language

00:34:23

that the psychedelic research in the 1960s hinted at before it was all closed down

00:34:31

is the idea of some kind of visualized synesthesia.

00:34:39

This isn’t a new idea.

00:34:41

This isn’t a new idea.

00:34:46

Philo-Judeus, who was a second century Alexandrian Jew,

00:34:50

wrote about what he called the more perfect logos.

00:34:53

The logos was an informing voice that Hellenistic spiritualism took very seriously

00:35:00

and Plato had a demon

00:35:03

and it was an informing voice

00:35:06

but Philo-Judeus said

00:35:08

what would be the more perfect logos

00:35:11

and then he answered his own question

00:35:14

and said a more perfect logos would be

00:35:17

a language that passed from being heard

00:35:21

to being beheld

00:35:23

without ever passing over a moment of transition.

00:35:29

Well, this kind of thing is part of the human psychedelic legacy.

00:35:38

This is the kind of stuff which shamans have been manipulating for each other’s amusement and mental health care for a long, long time.

00:35:50

And it’s what technology will inevitably seek to mimic and create.

00:35:58

If the molecular pharmacologists, the true reductionists of pharmacology are to be believed

00:36:06

then it should be possible to make

00:36:09

a psychoactive compound

00:36:12

that causes you to whistle the first eight

00:36:15

bars of Dixie and that’s it

00:36:17

you know, I mean their claim

00:36:21

is that the atom to the thought is

00:36:24

linked that closely.

00:36:26

Well, we’ll see.

00:36:28

But culture is moving off planet and into this era of very dense compression of effects

00:36:40

so that everything that happens is linked to everything else.

00:36:44

And we are literally almost becoming our data.

00:36:48

I mean, we speak of environments that are completely machine-created.

00:36:55

We occupy these environments some of as many hours a day,

00:36:59

interfacing with word processors and data-searching computers

00:37:04

and this sort of thing.

00:37:05

Consciousness and the drive to self-reflect may,

00:37:10

you know, the monkey body is now almost ancillary.

00:37:15

I mean, we are like coral animals in a vast reef

00:37:19

of excreted technological material

00:37:22

that is wired for solid state data transfer.

00:37:28

And within that we scurry around

00:37:31

doing our little tasks.

00:37:33

But we come and go.

00:37:35

The instrumentality remains

00:37:38

and replicates and grows.

00:37:43

And since we don’t know what this process is about

00:37:46

we hardly know what kind of a stance

00:37:48

to take

00:37:50

I believe, again because I choose to be an optimist

00:37:55

that we could not

00:37:57

be experiencing these kinds of

00:38:01

tidal forces on the structure

00:38:04

of our historical matrix

00:38:06

if it weren’t so that we must be very close to some kind of cusp

00:38:12

or some kind of phase transition

00:38:16

where it all becomes something else rather suddenly.

00:38:21

And, you know, anticipating this is the great joy of futurists.

00:38:27

I think that it may spell, it may really blow our minds.

00:38:36

It may spell the breakup of the entire male-dominated,

00:38:50

entire male-dominated, rational, linear, phonetic alphabet shell game that’s been going on for a while.

00:38:52

The major motif that characterizes the dawn-age shamanic stance is partnership as opposed to dominator styles of culture and a greatly enhanced

00:39:13

role for women. And in fact, the whole thing can be seen as a struggle over, in the broadest sense, the feminine.

00:39:29

In other words, the boundary-dissolving archetype versus the square-it-off-and-hold-it archetype,

00:39:33

which, as human populations moved out of the African cradle

00:39:41

15,000 to 20,000 years ago,

00:39:43

these being the first pastoral populations, they

00:39:50

fell away from this partnership model, probably for climatological reasons, perhaps because

00:39:57

psychoactive plants that they had grown dependent on were no longer available in the new zones.

00:40:02

we’re no longer available in the new zones notice that the whole story of Eden

00:40:05

is the story of the struggle

00:40:08

over a woman’s relationship

00:40:11

to a psychoactive plant

00:40:13

because you know

00:40:16

and it specifically says they will become

00:40:20

Yahweh says they will become as we are

00:40:24

if they get into this.

00:40:27

So, you see, this is a lot on my mind at the moment

00:40:32

because I’m doing a book on the history of the impact of plants over the millennia.

00:40:39

And it seems to me that what happened and what our story is,

00:40:42

it seems to me that what happened and what our story

00:40:44

is, is

00:40:45

that we

00:40:48

had something very

00:40:49

close to a

00:40:51

symbiotic relationship

00:40:53

with a goddess

00:40:55

of some sort.

00:40:58

I mean, it’s hard from our

00:41:00

position to try and understand

00:41:01

this too much, too clearly,

00:41:03

but it lies but it lays through the plants,

00:41:09

and a religion of ecstasy and probably orgy, and it’s the religion of the great horned goddess at

00:41:18

the dawn of prehistory, but that we don’t take seriously enough or we don’t realize how important this symbiosis was

00:41:28

that it was actually regulating psychological tendencies in us

00:41:36

which unregulated become detrimental.

00:41:42

And what I mean by that is

00:41:44

if you have a situation where every Saturday night

00:41:48

or every new moon, your whole group

00:41:52

just goes totally bananas on some kind of

00:41:56

very powerful, visionary plant

00:42:00

hallucinogen, the characteristic of this from the point of view

00:42:06

of an anthropologist is

00:42:08

all boundaries are

00:42:10

dissolved

00:42:11

boundaries are dissolved

00:42:13

and this dissolving of boundaries

00:42:16

is a

00:42:17

psycholitic function

00:42:19

that keeps ego

00:42:21

from forming

00:42:23

almost like a gallstone in the social body.

00:42:28

People are not egotistical in a situation

00:42:32

where that kind of orgiastic psychedelic religion

00:42:36

is being practiced

00:42:37

because they know the relativity of self.

00:42:41

They see it completely come apart.

00:42:44

They know that they are their kin and the animals and the

00:42:49

earth and the land. There’s identification, not this retreat and the beginning of strategies based

00:42:56

on gain for the center of this body. That kind of thing doesn’t happen. And when these populations in Africa,

00:43:07

where this kind of thing I am hypothesizing went on,

00:43:14

when those populations moved away,

00:43:17

there then became a frantic search for substitutes.

00:43:23

And our inner restlessness over the centuries

00:43:26

and our tendency to addict frantically to everything,

00:43:32

to each other, to all kinds of things,

00:43:34

it’s because we are the inheritors of an abused childhood, essentially.

00:43:43

That an extremely traumatic thing happened to us.

00:43:47

We were parted from this governing relationship

00:43:51

with a kind of planetary mind.

00:43:54

And anybody who takes these hallucinogens will tell you

00:43:59

calling it a planetary mind, calling it X, Y, or Z

00:44:02

doesn’t do justice to the ineffable, mysterious depth of it.

00:44:10

It’s still there, this thing, whatever it is.

00:44:14

And when you voyage into it, you discover, you know,

00:44:17

my God, the cosmos is alive.

00:44:19

It’s not only alive, it’s intelligent.

00:44:22

It’s not only intelligent, it’s now looking at me.

00:44:22

It’s not only alive, it’s intelligent.

00:44:24

It’s not only intelligent, it’s now looking at me. And, you know, you have a whole series of assumption-dissolving realizations.

00:44:34

So the archaic revival, again, I think will seek,

00:44:41

when it finally gets its options sorted out,

00:44:44

will seek, when it finally gets its options sorted out, to kind of center-piecing this relationship

00:44:48

to this female planetary thing.

00:44:52

I thought it was just off the wall

00:44:54

that these people in Tiananmen Square

00:44:57

built a statue to a goddess,

00:45:00

to a goddess of democracy

00:45:02

that they literally just raised out of the rubble i mean

00:45:06

if you don’t think we live in an age of myths and symbols uh this was uh this was powerful stuff

00:45:14

so um it’s coming to the end of my hour the only other thing i want to say before we take a break and then maybe have questions

00:45:26

is I think that the kind of things that I’m saying to you this evening have more

00:45:35

cogency than ever before as a kind of a developing point of view among a number of people

00:45:44

as a kind of a developing point of view among a number of people simply because there is more data on the table.

00:45:49

We’re finding out more and more about the situation in which we’re in

00:45:54

to be specific, stuff like the ozone hole

00:45:58

and the depletion of the rainforest,

00:46:02

the spread of epidemic disease

00:46:05

the clear breakdown

00:46:07

of centralized

00:46:10

myth-making

00:46:13

authority

00:46:14

at all levels

00:46:15

in China and the Soviet Union

00:46:18

here we do it through cynicism

00:46:20

there they do it through idealism

00:46:22

but it comes to the same

00:46:24

thing, everybody’s just sick of their governments There they do it through idealism, but it comes to the same thing.

00:46:25

Everybody’s just sick of their governments.

00:46:29

So what I want to say about this is that for the first time since the Greeks advanced the four, Aristotle used the five basic solids to explain

00:46:49

the structure of the universe, there are new mathematical cards on the table which seem

00:46:56

to hold promise that the most complex kinds of natural phenomena are going to yield to mathematical analysis,

00:47:06

which means linguistic analysis,

00:47:08

which means, and I’m referring here to fractal mathematics,

00:47:15

which uses very simple codes,

00:47:19

very short equations to produce coastlines,

00:47:26

thousands and thousands of ferns,

00:47:28

millions and millions of orchids,

00:47:32

natural form of great complexity and beauty,

00:47:36

but that’s only a small class of what it produces.

00:47:40

It also produces an infinity of worlds of alien beauty like nothing that we have ever seen before. the amplified power of mind and imagination, we are discovering infinitudes of sensory delight

00:48:09

and food for thought

00:48:13

in these electronically generated places.

00:48:16

Well, I don’t know if this is where the culture is pointing,

00:48:20

but I said in this talk

00:48:22

doors were being closed

00:48:24

by the onrushing momentum

00:48:26

into concrescence

00:48:27

this is true

00:48:29

but other doors are being flung open

00:48:32

doors, some of them into bizarre realms

00:48:35

of alien beauty

00:48:37

that may yet become real estate

00:48:40

well, so that’s just sort of an overview

00:48:44

of my take on the situation. So

00:48:47

then are there questions? Usually that’s more interesting.

00:48:50

Can you, is it appropriate to speak some about the work that you’re doing in the computer?

00:49:08

Part of what I do involves a particular kind of modeling of time that involves the I Ching.

00:49:12

And looking at historical data,

00:49:16

the I Ching is as good a barometer of historical change

00:49:23

as any other of these tools

00:49:27

that depend on synchronicity

00:49:29

for the way they work

00:49:30

but that’s not really how I use it

00:49:33

I’m more interested in structure

00:49:35

in the King Wen sequence

00:49:37

and have construed out of that

00:49:41

a kind of a time wave

00:49:43

a map of novelty

00:49:46

much of what I said this evening

00:49:48

presupposed this idea

00:49:50

but you don’t have to know this

00:49:52

to listen to me

00:49:55

but there is the idea

00:49:57

that part of what’s wrong

00:50:01

with how we see the world

00:50:02

or why there’s a certain problem

00:50:05

and it doesn’t always work for us the way we want it to

00:50:08

is because there is a factor left out

00:50:12

that we have failed to take account of.

00:50:16

It’s that science has taught us

00:50:21

to pay a great deal of attention

00:50:23

to the kinds of phenomena

00:50:26

such that when you recreate the initial conditions,

00:50:32

the process happens the same way again.

00:50:36

You know, they’re very big on that.

00:50:39

But all the more interesting phenomenon

00:50:42

in our lives,

00:50:55

falling in love, making a career, having children, living, dying, are non-repeatable and unique events.

00:51:00

They’re not amenable to this kind of intellectual game what I tried to do was

00:51:06

take the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching

00:51:10

and the notion of Tao

00:51:13

which is always presented as the most

00:51:16

slippery of concepts

00:51:18

that’s the major thing you come away with

00:51:21

when you deal with Tao

00:51:22

boy is this hard to understand

00:51:24

but I just thought well there are all these statements about Tao

00:51:29

in the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching

00:51:31

statements such as in the Weili translation

00:51:35

the way that can be told of

00:51:38

is not an unvarying way

00:51:40

well in spite of the double negative you can tell

00:51:44

that what it’s saying is that it’s a variable

00:51:46

way well if it’s a variable way it can be pictured on a Cartesian coordinate it can be treated as a

00:51:54

graph well when you begin to look at the Taoism and the intellectual preconceptions of the I Ching

00:52:02

from this point of view you begin to see that what you’re dealing with

00:52:06

is not the quaint aphorisms of primitive proto-Han so-and-sos,

00:52:14

but actually an extremely sophisticated understanding of time

00:52:20

as experienced,

00:52:23

an understanding that actually exceeds

00:52:27

anything up to the present day

00:52:29

that we’ve been able to come up with

00:52:31

and why is this?

00:52:33

it’s because we took a wrong turn

00:52:37

in our modeling of time

00:52:39

and this happened with Newton

00:52:44

it is treated as what is called pure duration We, and this happened with Newton,

00:52:51

it is treated as what is called pure duration in Western philosophy.

00:52:56

It simply means that you have to have this stuff in order to have processes because they need it.

00:53:03

It’s like a dimension into which you make available

00:53:08

for then these things to manifest.

00:53:11

But the conception which lies behind the I Ching is

00:53:15

that time is composed of elements

00:53:20

in the same way that Western science understands matter

00:53:28

to be composed of 108, 110, whatever it is, elements.

00:53:34

And that these temporal elements are like gestalts or archetypes. They somehow enclose and configure

00:53:48

the space-time matrix in which they reside.

00:53:52

They have quality, in other words.

00:53:54

That’s what I’m trying to say.

00:53:55

They impart a quality

00:53:57

so that not all time is alike.

00:54:01

Some times have the quality of openness.

00:54:04

Some times have the quality of openness.

00:54:07

Sometimes have the quality of closure.

00:54:10

And so forth. They had the perspicacity to pay sufficient attention to their own experience that they noted this.

00:54:21

this and what I’ve tried to do with the computer

00:54:24

is carry forward

00:54:25

this notion

00:54:27

that time

00:54:29

is not simply something which is

00:54:31

either running down or

00:54:33

getting harder, some people think of time

00:54:36

as a hill that gets steeper

00:54:38

and steeper, but that

00:54:39

it actually is a complex topological

00:54:42

manifold over

00:54:44

which

00:54:44

events flow.

00:54:48

And that this quality that I’ve referred to several times in the talk tonight called novelty is conserved in the, let’s call it the low points of the manifold.

00:55:01

points of the manifold and that habit

00:55:03

or recidivist tendencies

00:55:06

tend to

00:55:07

probabilistically cluster

00:55:09

at high points in this manifold

00:55:12

well then this is

00:55:13

sort of like a

00:55:15

feng shui of time

00:55:17

what we’re saying

00:55:19

and it’s like astrology

00:55:21

except astrology says

00:55:23

in my opinion too much because it has so

00:55:28

many concepts or idea actual occasions

00:55:38

of ideational intention which it brings

00:55:41

together in clusters to create its

00:55:43

interpretation well what this

00:55:46

simply says is there is a quality to being. Sometimes that quality is retrogressive and

00:55:54

takes apart, and sometimes that quality is progressive and integrative and connects and

00:56:01

moves forward. And the essence of Tao is knowing when it is one

00:56:07

and when it is the other and where the changeover points are.

00:56:10

Well, small computers are very useful for modeling

00:56:14

these kinds of flow processes.

00:56:17

I’ve been reading this guy talking about agriculture and ecology

00:56:21

and that sort of stuff.

00:56:23

And his thought was that more at this point

00:56:26

will come from discovery of what is

00:56:30

rather than invention of something new.

00:56:34

And I just wondered what you thought.

00:56:36

Well, I don’t know if you can really distinguish

00:56:38

between discovery and invention

00:56:40

with what we’re involved in.

00:56:44

I agree that more now is known

00:56:47

see we have now actually what has changed

00:56:54

is that we have the power to remake the

00:56:59

world and we have the information and we

00:57:05

have the contending strategies the

00:57:07

contending design strategies what we

00:57:10

lack is the will we have a heart problem

00:57:18

all else has been given unto us all

00:57:23

other ages in history

00:57:25

stood by helplessly

00:57:27

and watched disease

00:57:28

pogrom, madness

00:57:31

whatever was current

00:57:33

overtake them

00:57:34

helplessly

00:57:35

we actually

00:57:38

could form a response

00:57:40

but we are paralyzed

00:57:42

by the momentum of our past

00:57:45

or are we?

00:57:47

and that then becomes the

00:57:49

question

00:57:50

because we’re in a sinking submarine

00:57:53

does anybody know how to

00:57:56

start this thing for the surface

00:57:57

or are we just all going to

00:57:59

go down Captain Nemo

00:58:01

style? It’s not at all

00:58:04

clear. The reason I am so passionately committed

00:58:08

to the psychedelic thing

00:58:11

is because I see it as radical

00:58:14

and if this is not the moment

00:58:18

for radical solutions, what is?

00:58:21

I mean, you can preach

00:58:23

a new paradigm and cultural reformation and caring society till

00:58:29

you’re blue in the face, but the only time in this century that we have seen massive social change

00:58:38

in the industrial democracies was under the onslaught of psychedelics in the 1960s.

00:58:45

And granted, there was a war and this, that, and the other,

00:58:47

and a baby boom, but nevertheless,

00:58:49

that’s the only case we’ve seen.

00:58:52

What we need to change is our minds.

00:58:56

That’s the part that’s doing us dirt

00:58:59

and dragging us under.

00:59:01

How can we change our minds?

00:59:03

And, of course, here at Esalen,

00:59:05

we indulge ourselves because everyone is extremely enlightened

00:59:09

and they’ve been flown in

00:59:10

and they’re part of problem-solving task forces anyway,

00:59:14

and like that.

00:59:16

But, you know, my God, I toured,

00:59:19

I did some magazine work

00:59:21

and went to Thailand and India fairly recently,

00:59:25

and the feeling that you get on the Asian continent

00:59:29

is just that planet three is approaching the omega point.

00:59:34

I mean, the rate at which metals are being ripped from the ground,

00:59:38

forests cut down, people displaced, propaganda manufactured,

00:59:44

machines produced, it’s a pretty furious scene and no one

00:59:50

is in control. These are all integrated processes. There has to come at some point a deeper dialogue.

01:00:00

We have not been slammed to the wall I mean we talk crisis

01:00:05

but even the people in this room who come from Europe

01:00:09

know what a soft scene this is

01:00:13

because twice or three times

01:00:16

depending on how you’re counting

01:00:18

in this century Europe has been smashed to bits

01:00:21

and they’re not little brown people

01:00:24

off on the other side of the world.

01:00:26

They are the same civilization as we are

01:00:30

and smashed to bits

01:00:32

by the forces unleashed by the Enlightenment.

01:00:36

So it’s all about changing our minds,

01:00:40

getting hold of ourselves.

01:00:42

The first thing is an abandonment of cultural pretension.

01:00:46

We have nothing to teach anybody.

01:00:48

My God, if there’s anybody out there

01:00:50

who has any ideas on how to steer us out of this,

01:00:54

this is why we’re importing every shaman from the Amazon,

01:00:59

every Tibetan lama, every Mongolian goat herder

01:01:03

is being brought here and

01:01:06

shaken by the lapels and said

01:01:08

you know for God’s sake man do you have

01:01:10

answers? We have answers.

01:01:16

I would like to hear you

01:01:19

make a case for

01:01:22

in what way

01:01:24

the psychedelics could

01:01:26

help us, in what way are they a radical

01:01:28

solution, you cite the 60s

01:01:30

and still that was put down

01:01:32

and generally speaking

01:01:34

drugs are not held to in very

01:01:36

high regard. I think

01:01:38

that the drug issue

01:01:40

which is not

01:01:42

which until

01:01:44

fairly recently I, like maybe many of you assumed was this kind of

01:01:49

side issue on the social agenda of what was happening it now appears that actually this is

01:01:57

directly in front of us as a civilization that we’re going to go through some kind of convulsion

01:02:06

over this issue.

01:02:08

And I don’t mean that there are going to be a lot of people addicted

01:02:11

or a lot of people not addicted.

01:02:13

I mean that it will be a financial convulsion.

01:02:17

What has happened is that international criminal syndicates

01:02:21

largely put in place by intelligence agencies in the 40s and 50s,

01:02:31

and more recently in the case of cocaine, that these criminal syndicates have grown

01:02:39

more powerful in many cases than entire nations, such nations as Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru. These

01:02:50

nations are bought and sold by an industry that measures its profits in fractions of a trillion These drug cartels were put in place out of historical bad habit.

01:03:09

I mean, I don’t know how many of you are aware of it,

01:03:12

but in the 1840s a war was fought along the coast of China

01:03:18

that was called the Opium War.

01:03:21

And the issue that the opium war was fought over

01:03:25

was the British government’s desire to sell opium

01:03:30

freely in the ports of China

01:03:32

and the government of China telling them to forget it

01:03:37

and so they sent naval gunpower

01:03:40

and forcibly offloaded tonnage of opium. See, we think, or I thought until I looked into it,

01:03:49

that opium was grown in China. Well, it was a part of the Chinese Materia Medica for thousands

01:03:57

of years, but it was a very minor part. But the opium that addicted China was grown in Goa under British mandate. Now why were

01:04:07

the British insisting that they be

01:04:09

allowed to sell opium in the ports of

01:04:12

China? Because another drug market that

01:04:16

they had created, tea, had undergone a

01:04:21

financial collapse and they were stuck

01:04:24

with 200 ships

01:04:27

and port facilities that stretched from Liverpool to Macau,

01:04:32

and they were taking a bath financially.

01:04:36

And then somebody had the brilliant idea,

01:04:38

we’ll plant Goa into opium,

01:04:41

and China is weak,

01:04:43

we can force our way into Chinese ports and addict the Chinese

01:04:47

population. And this was done. So as recently as the 1840s, so-called civilized governments

01:04:55

were using military power to push opiates on populations that wanted none of it.

01:05:01

So understand that the holy sanctimoniousness

01:05:07

of the government’s attitude on drugs

01:05:09

is entirely situational

01:05:12

and tailored for very short-term consumption.

01:05:18

You don’t have to be a wild-eyed radical

01:05:21

to know that opium heroin production in Southeast Asia soared during the

01:05:29

Vietnam War as a CIA strategy to pacify the black ghetto in the United States. I mean, that’s how

01:05:40

you do it. I mean, you flood the ghetto with junk and then nobody’s interested in fomenting for civil rights at that point.

01:05:51

Now, the problem is that the cocaine thing got completely out of hand.

01:05:58

Cocaine was originally imaged as a relatively harmless stimulant

01:06:05

that you could sell for big bucks

01:06:07

to the white middle class

01:06:09

and support all kinds of dirty little covert operations

01:06:14

with the rake-off

01:06:15

but have virtually no social consequences.

01:06:22

The problem was they didn’t reckon with the perverseness of human

01:06:27

nature that could take a hundred and

01:06:30

twenty dollar gram of fluffed flake

01:06:32

cocaine and turn it into five hundred

01:06:35

dollars worth of super addictive crack.

01:06:39

Well you know the major addiction

01:06:42

wherever there are poor people

01:06:45

is money

01:06:46

and the notion then of

01:06:49

overturning the relationship of the ghetto

01:06:51

to crack is impossible

01:06:53

so the government

01:06:55

is grappling now

01:06:57

with demons which it unleashed

01:06:59

throughout the 20th century

01:07:01

and

01:07:02

I firmly believe that, you know,

01:07:07

if cocaine cost, if a gram of cocaine cost

01:07:12

what a tube of airplane glue costs,

01:07:16

then you wouldn’t see fashionable and chic gentlemen

01:07:20

driving Porsches with airplane glue in their beards.

01:07:24

It just wouldn’t happen, you know.

01:07:28

It’s the cost.

01:07:31

It’s the cost and the illicitness.

01:07:34

The belief that everyone will become a dope fiend if drugs are legalized

01:07:40

is once again the dominator culture stepping in and acting as the enforcing arm

01:07:49

for religious fundamentalism.

01:07:52

I mean, eventually the drug issue will take its place

01:07:56

along with the right to own property,

01:08:00

the right of women to equal role in society

01:08:06

the abolition of slavery

01:08:08

it’s part of

01:08:12

a mature definition

01:08:15

of human beings

01:08:17

it’s preposterous to set yourself at war

01:08:21

with nature like that

01:08:23

now where the psychedelic thing comes into this

01:08:26

is not yet defined.

01:08:29

There’s a very interesting book

01:08:30

called The Great Drug War by Trebek.

01:08:34

And it’s a 500-page book,

01:08:36

has multiple appendices and indices

01:08:38

and this and that,

01:08:40

and he’s a policymaker.

01:08:42

And he’s a good guy.

01:08:44

He advocates legalization and so forth and so on

01:08:47

yet you look in the index of this book

01:08:50

and you look up LSD and there’s nothing

01:08:53

you look up psychedelics, nothing

01:08:56

MDMA, nothing, psilocybin, nothing

01:08:58

well you realize that

01:09:00

that’s not even an issue to these people.

01:09:05

They are so fixated on these multibillion-dollar industries

01:09:12

that even the advocates of legalization treat it like an unwanted guest.

01:09:21

But what is really, I I think behind all this is that

01:09:27

this restless search through

01:09:29

nature for stimulants

01:09:33

aphrodisiacs, uppers, downers, sideways

01:09:36

trips is a legacy

01:09:39

of this

01:09:40

symbiosis of the origin period

01:09:44

and that when we finally find our way this symbiosis of the origin period and

01:09:45

that when we finally find our way back

01:09:48

to those substances then there will be a

01:09:52

measure of peace of mind you have to

01:09:55

realize that even in the West which is

01:09:58

the most anti-psychedelic of all

01:10:00

societies even in the West the

01:10:04

connection has only been broken

01:10:06

since Alaric the Visigoth

01:10:08

burned Eleusis sometime

01:10:10

in the 4th century

01:10:11

so it’s been less than 2000

01:10:14

years that even the

01:10:16

wellsprings of Western

01:10:17

spirituality were

01:10:20

refreshed by

01:10:22

this particular tradition

01:10:24

and the shamanism then

01:10:26

is an effort to recapture it

01:10:28

to no

01:10:30

less a degree than

01:10:32

Eleusis was also

01:10:34

an archaic revival they were looking

01:10:36

back to the great

01:10:38

mother religion of Minoan

01:10:40

Crete I mean it was always

01:10:42

said in the classical

01:10:44

text that what was done in secret at Eleusis was Minoan Crete I mean it was always said in the classical text

01:10:45

that what was done in secret

01:10:47

at Eleusis was done

01:10:49

openly

01:10:49

at Gnosis

01:10:53

on Crete

01:10:54

so it’s

01:10:57

even in our tradition

01:10:59

not that long ago

01:11:01

but it is thoroughly

01:11:03

suppressed by the confluence of dominator styles that emerged

01:11:11

with the triumph of Christianity and the emergence of that patriarchal and then the the real nail in

01:11:20

the coffin was the the phonetic alphabet evolving in Greece and then printing.

01:11:27

And by then the walls were so high and the forces propelling us towards scientific industrialism

01:11:35

so undeniable that we had to undergo this.

01:11:40

But we are like a prodigal child I mean we made a descent into historical time

01:11:48

to learn the secrets of matter apparently a kind of Faustian obsession

01:11:55

that we played out to the end the end meaning until that moment when we could

01:12:00

bring the light of the stars to the surface of the earth to exterminate our

01:12:04

enemies and then the contradictions and the consequences of the stars to the surface of the earth to exterminate our enemies.

01:12:14

And then the contradictions and the consequences of that kind of madness made us either extinct or unrecognizable to ourselves.

01:12:17

I mean, that’s really the choice.

01:12:21

The change that must come has to be radical.

01:12:26

We are well set up for radical change

01:12:30

at the physiological level,

01:12:34

but at the cultural level,

01:12:36

we have a terrific kind of constipation

01:12:39

that threatens to become fatal.

01:12:42

These boundary-dissolving techniques

01:12:46

are what we need.

01:12:48

And, you know, all of them are

01:12:50

but a mere gesture at the problem

01:12:54

except these very powerful

01:12:58

visionary hallucinogens.

01:13:00

So, you know, it’s an emergency situation.

01:13:03

Do you see geomancy as part of the

01:13:06

radical solution?

01:13:08

well I think that

01:13:09

what we’re becoming aware of

01:13:12

is

01:13:13

that boundary dissolution

01:13:18

that the

01:13:20

vanishing of the difference

01:13:22

between self and world

01:13:24

means that we’re catching up to the changes that went on in physics

01:13:32

in the early 20th century.

01:13:36

Everything is being replaced by fields.

01:13:38

Everything is seen now as a transient interference pattern rather than something with an integrity that

01:13:48

persists in time to the degree that geomancy accentuates and stresses this field phenomenon,

01:13:59

the wave mechanical nature of Gaia. I think so.

01:14:05

I don’t know what is to become of us.

01:14:08

The really odd thing about all this

01:14:11

is that apparently we are

01:14:13

unable to continue to live here.

01:14:18

Whether we want to or not.

01:14:20

It’s almost gotten to the place

01:14:22

that it’s just become too much.

01:14:27

The place is bursting at the seams. the whole thing should be turned into a park

01:14:29

but where are you going to put all the people

01:14:32

and so the new age can

01:14:36

dissolve I think

01:14:39

most dichotomies

01:14:41

but what are you going to do about the question of whether or not we are strangers in this universe

01:14:47

or whether this is our only and native home

01:14:51

to which we must devote great care and attention.

01:14:57

I mean, we have both tendencies.

01:14:59

If you look at what culture is doing,

01:15:02

it appears to be giving us no choice.

01:15:07

We have to leave the planet if we love it if you love it leave it because to stay is to toxify so you know there we it cannot be

01:15:21

denied that the earth is the cradle of humanity the question is simply can we remain

01:15:27

in the cradle forever and I am ambivalent about this I I no longer have my youthful enthusiasm

01:15:37

for an unambiguous migration to Alpha Centauri. I entertain it still,

01:15:45

but, you know,

01:15:47

that was pre-Challenger.

01:15:49

Now we know too much

01:15:51

about the worms

01:15:52

who run these things

01:15:53

and what it’s really all about

01:15:56

and how slow it’s moving.

01:15:59

I mean, it’s moving slowly.

01:16:01

It’s moving so slowly.

01:16:03

Even the Russians.

01:16:07

I mean, I felt like I should write a letter to gorbachev in the interests of perestroika they’re cutting back on the space program

01:16:13

said my god this is the one thing you have which nobody else has why don’t you just go for it

01:16:19

but there is you know ambivalence And I don’t think you conquer the universe

01:16:26

with an attitude of ambivalence.

01:16:29

So we’re on hold.

01:16:32

Nobody knows what’s going on.

01:16:34

And do you have to just surrender to the irrational

01:16:37

and put your faith in that friendly flying saucers are on the way?

01:16:42

I mean, this is a response of many people.

01:16:42

flying saucers are on the way.

01:16:44

I mean, this is the response of many people.

01:16:51

Or is it within the power that we have within ourselves to change our minds?

01:16:53

Well, to the best of my knowledge,

01:16:56

having toured the world and met a lot of strange people

01:16:59

and spent a lot of time on this and read a lot of books,

01:17:03

the only thing which looks like it holds a chance in hell

01:17:06

is some configuration of the psychedelic experience.

01:17:11

Because it alone sufficiently perturbs assumptions

01:17:15

that you can begin to see how there might be a possible dialogue.

01:17:22

So our relationship

01:17:25

to matter

01:17:26

to plutonium

01:17:28

to heroin

01:17:31

to cocaine

01:17:32

to psychedelics

01:17:34

to consumer goods

01:17:36

all of these things

01:17:38

you see we are an addictive animal

01:17:40

we are

01:17:41

bereft

01:17:43

and on the bounce

01:17:45

and willing to settle

01:17:48

for almost anything

01:17:49

and half crazy

01:17:51

in the process

01:17:52

and the notion

01:17:56

is and it

01:17:57

emerges comes from the unconscious

01:18:00

I think as I look at the

01:18:01

20th century that the only

01:18:03

thing which can steady us in this situation

01:18:06

Is that long long backward reach to the campfires of the Magdalenian?

01:18:12

when

01:18:14

Religion was an experience

01:18:17

You see that’s what they’ve taken from us

01:18:20

We are entirely disempowered in our own self experience of the immediacy of being we are always

01:18:29

we want to wait and see what the New York Times says about it or the evening news and it’s not

01:18:36

true until it comes that way validated that way and we have no vocabulary for our emotions we have thousands of words for the

01:18:49

chemical structure of the soil of Mars or you know the interior processes of the Sun but we

01:18:58

have a very impoverished emotional vocabulary and this is culturally accumulated over thousands of years one of

01:19:07

the great boons of psychedelics is that they are catalysts for language permission to send the mind

01:19:16

where it’s never gone before and leave a linguistic map that others can use so we’re trying to stretch the envelope shed the monkey abandon the cultural

01:19:32

the thanatoptic drive to ruin really that has characterized this Faustian relationship to the world. It’s been all wrong.

01:19:45

It’s not working.

01:19:46

I mean, you don’t have to be very bright to see this.

01:19:51

So now we need to talk about ways out.

01:19:55

I do not think of myself as an expert or a teacher.

01:20:01

I think of myself as a wayfarer who happened upon these extremely intense experiences that are the legacy of this kind of shamanism worldwide. be something which they are saving for us and keeping for us

01:20:25

if we are willing to come in out of the rain.

01:20:31

Anybody else?

01:20:32

Yeah.

01:20:34

And I think the critical mass of consciousness

01:20:40

will bring it like that when it happens.

01:20:44

It’s a filter and a control, but it will emerge,

01:20:47

and I agree with you.

01:20:49

It could be instantly.

01:20:52

I mean, this thing in China crystallized with appalling speed.

01:20:58

I mean, the CIA, nobody understood what was going on.

01:21:01

They still don’t understand what’s going on.

01:21:04

It just, there comes a time and the switch is turned

01:21:08

and the morphogenetic field comes on and people begin to act.

01:21:13

And, you know, the things that we are seeing,

01:21:17

we have a great deal of difficulty getting in perspective

01:21:21

because it’s moving so quickly.

01:21:23

And I venture to say you ain’t seen

01:21:26

nothing yet I mean it’s just beginning to pull and tear and reconfigure itself and it has a mind

01:21:35

of its own it has a will of its own it is we are atoms within the organizational plan of this thing.

01:21:46

And so then the task becomes, really, to witness this,

01:21:52

to be with it, to see it, to replicate the means associated with it

01:21:58

and pass them around linguistically,

01:22:01

and to empower people to believe in their intuition empower them to go with the

01:22:11

the whole yeah well he worked basically in the realm of one class of these things

01:22:28

because he was fascinated with certain shapes,

01:22:30

but the qualities that he was able to get out of his structures

01:22:36

reside in the fact that they were taking advantage

01:22:40

of these kinds of natural principles.

01:22:45

Nature, modeling nature.

01:22:49

This is what we haven’t done.

01:22:51

See, we’ve always gone for the big flash,

01:22:55

the high heat release,

01:22:56

and nature does her most interesting tricks

01:23:03

with voltages below that of a

01:23:06

flashlight battery I mean that’s where it’s

01:23:09

happening like in your head for instance

01:23:11

I mean our

01:23:15

method was to start with the

01:23:18

grossest phenomena and work downward

01:23:21

and we’ve been doing it for 500 years

01:23:24

now we think we understand how two billiard

01:23:28

balls theoretically relate to each other but not three this is called the three body problem and

01:23:36

there are similar problems i mean our biology is a fiction we do not understand how you can think i will close my hand into a fist

01:23:46

and it happened mind over matter a miracle still totally beyond the can of science because you see

01:23:56

what’s happening is intentionality is somehow affecting gross matter. And you can talk about quantum mechanical junctions

01:24:07

and this and that and the other thing,

01:24:09

but it’s all guesswork.

01:24:10

Well, then when you turn to psychology,

01:24:13

it’s smoke signals plus guesswork.

01:24:17

You know?

01:24:18

So since abstraction has served us so ill,

01:24:24

why not return to feeling? Since abstraction has served us so ill,

01:24:27

why not return to feeling?

01:24:30

Why not return to symbols?

01:24:36

Why not return to rituals, gestalts, archetypes, analogy?

01:24:41

Analogical reasoning is extremely powerful, has worked very well in the past for sophisticated societies

01:24:46

we we have fatal styles of thought that we are fatally addicted to and

01:24:53

unless we break out of

01:24:56

That kind of unexamined

01:24:59

Eco, which is what it is. Then we have a pretty much

01:25:07

appointment in Samara, I’m afraid.

01:25:15

But if we’re willing to examine that, then the human horizon is endlessly bright.

01:25:23

I mean, we represent some kind of ontological experiment on the part of something that is either calling us home or going toward its deepest self

01:25:29

or I mean there’s love here there’s some kind of love there’s some kind of other there’s some kind

01:25:37

of caring across the project of being and this is know, the grand task of philosophy to witness and to unravel

01:25:48

and to make immediate in people’s lives. Well, that’s it for this evening. Thank you very much.

01:26:02

You’re listening to The Psychedelic Salon, where people are changing their lives one thought at a time.

01:26:08

Now, before I forget it, since I’m still just kind of a little kid

01:26:13

who, when he learns something new, he wants to tell you all about it

01:26:16

before he actually understands what he’s talking about,

01:26:19

and, well, that’s me.

01:26:22

But close to the end of this talk that we just heard,

01:26:25

Terence was saying something about modern physics

01:26:27

and that he thought everything arises out of fields,

01:26:31

which I’m sure was probably the current thought at the time.

01:26:34

But I’m sure you probably noticed the recent announcement of the amplithedron.

01:26:39

I think I’m saying that about right.

01:26:42

But physicists have recently postulated this thing as a jewel-like geometric object

01:26:48

that dramatically simplifies the calculations of particle interactions

01:26:53

and challenges the notion that space and time are fundamental components of reality.

01:27:00

So now, even though I’ve read the article about it, and I’ll link to it in the program notes, well, even though I’ve read that article, now you know as much about it as I do.

01:27:10

But, hey, I’m just the carnival barker, remember?

01:27:13

And did you catch Terrence’s comment that we are becoming our data?

01:27:19

Well, I guess that at least as far as the government spies are concerned, that’s probably how they think of us.

01:27:25

Just big blobs of data that continue to grow in their memory vats.

01:27:30

And by the way, if you are interested in the current story about all of the spying that the U.S. government has been doing on us,

01:27:37

well, you won’t want to miss my next podcast because it features a talk by John Gilmore,

01:27:41

who is one of the co-founders of EFF, the Electronic Frontier

01:27:46

Foundation, which is one of the primary organizations that’s begun suing the federal

01:27:51

government over all this. You know, it’s really too bad that we’re never going to learn what

01:27:56

Terrence’s views would have been about the unbelievable extent that we’re all now being

01:28:03

spied upon.

01:28:06

Ghosts in the machine, I think.

01:28:10

That’s what we’re probably all morphing into, ghosts in the machine. So, hey, let’s go haunt somebody, huh?

01:28:13

Anyway, Terrence certainly wasn’t very far off way back over 20 years ago

01:28:19

when he said, we are like coral animals in a vast reef of excreted technological material that is wired for solid state transfer.

01:28:29

Don’t you just love it when he comes out with a riff like that?

01:28:34

Well, since in my previous podcast I already mentioned the fact that I have some issues with this concept of a transcendental object at the end of time,

01:29:08

Transcendental Objects in my opinion, I should say, Terrence was, at heart, a poet. And that by considering some of these raps from the perspective of poetic license, well, to me, it makes them even more enjoyable.

01:29:12

Of course, you shouldn’t go by what I say about all this, because

01:29:15

I am in no way qualified to hold forth about the nature of things

01:29:20

transcendental. One last thing that I’d like to

01:29:24

mention before I leave you for today is that

01:29:26

recently one of our fellow salonners named Mark posted a question in our program notes,

01:29:31

which as you know, you can get to via psychedelicsalon.us. And his question caused me to

01:29:37

remember that, well, it’s been too long, quite a while since I mentioned this. And the question is,

01:29:42

what is the track at the beginning of the podcast?

01:29:47

And, of course, it’s the track that’s being played in the background right now.

01:29:50

Well, you know, I really feel bad

01:29:51

for not mentioning this more often

01:29:53

because, well, it’s from a friend of mine.

01:29:56

The theme song that you hear each week

01:29:57

here in the salon is El Alien

01:29:59

by Shatul Hayuk.

01:30:01

And if you go to their website,

01:30:03

which is shatulhayuk.org,

01:30:05

and you better get the spelling on that one.

01:30:07

I have to look it up every time myself.

01:30:09

It’s C-A-T-A-L-H-U-Y-U-K.

01:30:15

Chetulhayuk.org.

01:30:17

And you can listen to the transmix of it there.

01:30:20

Anyway, the group is led by my friend Jacques,

01:30:22

who is backed up by Cordell and Wells,

01:30:24

who are also really great guys.

01:30:27

And Jacques, by the way, makes a cameo appearance as Paloka in my novel, The Genesis Generation.

01:30:34

So, Jacques, Cordell, and Wells, I thank you once again for what has now become a very recognizable theme song for the salon.

01:30:46

theme song for the salon. And finally I want to give a shout out to all of our fellow saloners who participated in the recent Symbiosis Festival. My friend Jade sent me some pictures of the event

01:30:53

and well I was really blown away. It’s been a couple of years since I was last able to make

01:30:59

a Symbiosis event and wow I’m really impressed at the quality of the art and the scale of what everybody pulled off this year.

01:31:06

So bravo to you all.

01:31:09

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

01:31:13

Be well, my friends.