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094 - Morphogenic Family Fields (Part 2)

May 29, 2007, 55 min read

Program Notes

Guest speakers: Rupert Sheldrake, Ralph Abraham, and Terence McKenna

(Minutes : Seconds into program)
04:38 Rupert Sheldrake: quot;The primary metaphor is the magnetic field, that’s what gives you the sense of a field. But if you look at the type of physics that would be appropriate for describing these fields it would not be magnitism, it’s quantum field theory.

07:23 Ralph Abraham:“I’m extremely suspicious of the application of quantum mechanical concepts in the arena of psychology, consciousness, sociology, and so on. To me that’s much fuzzier than the face on Mars.”

12:28 Terence McKenna: “Part of the problem is that physical models break down when prosecuted to quantum mechanical levels.”

21:15 Ralph begins his explanation of the physics of the nimbus, otherwise known as a halo.

30:47 Terence: “The more successful psychoanalytic theories, it seems to me, are the least mathmatically driven, and depend really on this mysterious business that we call the gifted therapist.”

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Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Greetings from cyberdelic space.

00:00:19 ►

This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the psychedelic salon.

00:00:23 ►

This is Lorenzo, and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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So, what’s my excuse this week, you ask, for being late at getting this podcast out?

00:00:35 ►

Well, in the Navy I learned that the only proper answer to a question like that is,

00:00:36 ►

No excuse, sir.

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Now, I’d like to be able to tell you that I’ve got chronic fatigue syndrome or something like that.

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Although you astrologers out there might also be interested in knowing that for the next year or so, Saturn will continue conjuncting my natal sun in the 12th house.

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And if you know what that means, you know that I’m in for a long haul of the blahs.

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However, my guess is that I’m just overly tired from staying up late and talking for several days in a row.

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And from that perspective, it’s been a good week around the old psychedelic salon.

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On Sunday, our musician-artist friend Jarrett stopped by,

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and so I called Matt Palomary, who’s also a friend of his,

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and Matt came over for what turned out to be a long day and night of interesting conversation.

00:01:20 ►

And that vibe just continued on Monday and Tuesday,

00:01:22 ►

when Charlie Grobe spent some time here during appearances at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association,

00:01:29 ►

where he and Francisco Moreno and one of the doctors involved in the Johns Hopkins psilocybin study

00:01:35 ►

gave a presentation about their collective work using psilocybin,

00:01:39 ►

one of the active ingredients in magic mushrooms,

00:01:42 ►

in their research in new treatment methods for various illnesses.

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I think it’s interesting that a mainstream group like the American Psychiatric Association

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would put a topic like that on their agenda.

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Maybe the evidence of the effectiveness of psychedelic medicines is becoming so obvious

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that even the mainstream now has to take notice.

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Charlie is going to send me a copy of their presentation,

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and if it has some new information that we haven’t already heard in a podcast,

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well, then I’ll pass it along to you.

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But right now, I don’t know much about what was said,

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because Charlie and I had all kinds of other things to talk about,

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and then Mateo came back by to see Charlie, and it turned into another late night.

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And while I didn’t turn on my recorder and record any of our conversations,

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I did arrange with Charlie to do a couple of interviews in the next few weeks,

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and I’ll do my best to make that happen.

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But right now, I’d better get back to today’s program,

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which is the continuation of a trialogue that was recorded on June 8, 1998 in Santa Cruz, California,

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where Rupert Sheldrake, Ralph Abraham, and Terence McKenna were talking about Rupert’s

00:02:53 ►

hypothesis about morphogenic family fields.

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When we left off last week, Terence McKenna was just saying that he thought perhaps the

00:03:01 ►

concept of a family field was only a metaphor and not an actual energy field.

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So we’ll pick up where Terrence had just floated that idea and see where they take it.

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It’s a conceptual metaphor.

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The field.

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Yes, it doesn’t have any dynamics of its own.

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But maybe fields…

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But the model that you make would have the dynamics.

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Yes.

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A magnetic field…

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There’s nothing there to measure.

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There’s nothing there to interfere with.

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This is a way of describing a situation.

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Or modeling it.

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Yes.

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Like a magnetic field is a way of modelling magnetic fields

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magnetic fields

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field in this sense

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means an extended

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wavy thing that

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an object

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would have like a sphere of it around it

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or something

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but I’m not sure when you

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originally started speaking about

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morphic fields and so on,

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were you thinking of something like the magnetic field

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or were you thinking of more abstractly as Hellinger uses it in the context of the family field?

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Well, I was thinking of something more abstractly,

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but I think that these fields have a kind of ontological reality

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comparable to that of electromagnetic fields

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I see, I always thought of it

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more as the electromagnetic field

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kind of, that kind of field

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when I first

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read your works

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many years ago

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the primary metaphor is the magnetic field

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that’s what gives you a sense of the field

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but if you look at the kind of physics

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that would be most appropriate for describing these fields,

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it’s not electromagnetism, it’s quantum field theory.

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Oh, it’s not that either.

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It’s the field concept, the extended thing,

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that’s represented by a continuous real number variable

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defined on a coordinate system

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well no I had a discussion

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with David Peat and Basil Hiley

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recently in London

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we had a whole day discussing this question

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Hiley is Bohm’s

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principal follower

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he worked with Bohm for many years

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and

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we were discussing

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we went at great lengths about this nature of fields

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and one distinction they made

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for me which was very helpful was that

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these quantum fields, say you’ve got

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two photons whizzing apart from the same

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atom and you measure the polarisation

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of one and the others immediately

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instantaneously by entanglement

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or non-locality or non-separability

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or Bell’s theorem or the

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EPR paradox,

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the other immediately has the opposite polarization.

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That the model you have for the connection of those,

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the quantum function that describes them,

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is, until the moment we measure it, is a kind of private field.

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There is a connection between the two, one here and one here.

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But it’s not like the connection between a magnet and another magnet

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or between a source of light, the sun, and a sink, the earth

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where the light goes in

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or the gravitational field between the earth and the moon

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it’s not that at any point in between you can go and measure the strength of that field

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because that field only affects those two protons

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it’s a kind of private field that links them

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that’s not determinable by measurements in between

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but isn’t the very notion of field,

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can I get an idea of inclusivity of space and time?

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In other words, why call it a field at all?

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Why not just call it a connection?

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Well, you could just call it a connection,

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but I think quantum field theory does have a notion of fields underlying this,

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but they’re not in normal space and time.

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Ralph would know that.

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It’s a completely different use of the word field,

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and it is private in that particles have a field.

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I mean, there only exist fields,

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and their interpretation as particles is just a kind of interpretation,

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but that the universe consists of so many of these fields of interaction, as it were,

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and their variables are not spatial.

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It’s a completely different model.

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It couldn’t be anything more different than the use of this word field in the quantum domain,

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the use of the word field in classical physics, for example.

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So I’m extremely suspicious of the

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application of quantum mechanical concepts in the arena of psychology

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consciousness sociology and so on yes but you see that we’ve got to feel

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much funnier than the face on Mars alright

00:07:46 ►

you see we’ve got two field models

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in physics, we’ve got the sort of classical

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electromagnetic field models

00:07:52 ►

with continuous fields

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and measurements can be carried out

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at any point in the field

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and it can be discovered to be there

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but you see now David Bone’s

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model of quantum theory

00:08:04 ►

which you referred to

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earlier, the one that involves

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if you can get rid of

00:08:09 ►

the non-causal

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indeterminism, but what he

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substitutes for indeterminism is what he

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calls a quantum potential

00:08:17 ►

which is a field, an invisible

00:08:20 ►

field of quantum potentials

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that shapes what happens to different particles

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and which has as a part of its very nature non-locality this quantum potential

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means something that happened here or it can happen there but the field itself is

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in some kind of higher dimension which he calls the implicate order and it’s

00:08:37 ►

the realm of possibilities which quantum fields are defined in terms of fields of

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multi-dimensional fields of possibility which are not the same kinds of things.

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Now, morphic resonance involves

00:08:48 ►

what one might call non-local effects.

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That makes me interested in the only branch of science

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which has non-locality as part of its normal structure.

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And so the question is,

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is there anything in this quantum stuff

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with its non-locality?

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It relates to all these other instances yet a child mother knowing about a child of pigeon separated from its flock many

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miles away and being able to come home to a father separated from a son and having a telepathic link

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between them these are kinds of non-locality they’re parts of the same system still remaining connected at a distance

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is this a mere analogy

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or does it show us that there’s something

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deep being revealed by quantum physics

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not that you can explain all things in terms

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of existing quantum theory of particles

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but that this

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they’ve stumbled on something in quantum theory

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which is common to systems of

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organisation of many levels of complexity

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and that there is therefore more

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similarity between the quantum

00:09:50 ►

models of fields and these phenomena

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than classical Maxwell type

00:09:54 ►

electromagnetic models of fields

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but these are two quite different sorts of fields

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and the gravitational field is different

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again

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so which field model

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we maybe need a quite different field

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model and we don’t necessarily have to have any of those

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but it would have to include

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what quantum field theory has.

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I think the model, what it

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has in common with that that’s interesting is

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the private field, the fact that

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if you have a tremendous emotional

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link, as Finn would say, and if you

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could pick up telepathically

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messages from Finn, that’s a kind of private

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field. It affects you and Finn

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but I wouldn’t expect in a linear

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line between you and Finn to go along with a meter

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and measure it.

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No, so the private

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field aspect is interesting, the non-locality

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aspect of it is interesting

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and therefore it may be a better model or at least

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it frees us up from thinking we’ve got

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to have a model that’s only based on the electromagnetic pattern.

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It seems to me that a great deal is lost that way because, for example,

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there’s no natural model for communication.

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In the case of a mechanical field, like two billiard balls are connected by a spring. If one billiard ball

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shakes then the vibration travels down the spring to the other one. This is

00:11:13 ►

electromagnetic photons. They are all kind of communication in the world and that is more or less the same way.

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Through a vibration like disturbance of a sort of mechanical vibrating field, and

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that’s convenient because we’re thinking of communications, actually we’re trying to model

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communications in the family field, it’s the communications between different members of

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the family that make it happen, that’s where the activity is.

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But in a quantum field, like in the Einstein, Rosen, Podolsky thing

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like if you measure the polarisation

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of this photon here

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and immediately the other one has the opposite

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polarisation, although it’s not

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communication through photons because it’s twice

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the speed of light, if they’re moving partly

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it’s considered to be instantaneous

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although the word communication is

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denied to this and

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the correct usage is instantaneous correlation

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if a member of the family dies

00:12:09 ►

and another member of the family immediately feels some kind of perturbation

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maybe it is more like that quantum effect

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than like a series of wobbling springs

00:12:19 ►

moving through the intervening space

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seems like a long shot to me moving through the encaming space.

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Seems like a long shot to me.

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Part of the problem is that physical models break down when prosecuted to quantum mechanical levels.

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For example, when you stand on a hillside at night

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and look at the stars

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you see all the stars in the sky

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well if you move three feet and look again

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you still see all the stars in the sky

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the implication of this is that

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wherever you stand in the universe

00:12:59 ►

you can see all the stars

00:13:01 ►

that can be seen, a great many stars

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well what you’re seeing are photons You can see all the stars that can be seen, a great many stars.

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Well, what you’re seeing are photons.

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Well, do photons from all the stars fill every cubic volume of space,

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no matter how small?

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Or are we asked to believe that if you were shrinking, you would finally reach dimensions where the stars begin going out

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because there isn’t room in the space you’re in

00:13:27 ►

for the photons to occupy that space.

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Quantum physicists tell us,

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no, there is no size so small that it causes the stars to go out.

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But this seems to imply then that life photons,

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which are real things from every star in the universe

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can crowd themselves into another real thing a physical volume no matter how

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small and this generates contradictions which point out that even trying to use

00:14:00 ►

language about these things somehow betrays them what we think they’re saying they aren’t

00:14:06 ►

saying because if they’re really saying what we think they’re saying they generate absurdities

00:14:12 ►

such as that and think how many photons there must be in the universe if you can see every star

00:14:19 ►

from every point and what is a photon that an object a hundred million light years away can fill all space right down to the nanometer and below volumes with

00:14:34 ►

photons this is really so keen on this one this is Orthodox physics as I

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understand well that’s the corpuscular view.

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I think many metaphors we’ve shared over the years,

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like the owner and the pet are separated in space.

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There’s kind of an elastic dough in between them that gets stretched out.

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stretched out and the vibrating rounds more paper the resonance okay like resonance is good doesn’t make regular sense of in quantum mechanics resonance

00:15:16 ►

is metaphor that comes from the acoustic ground I like the acoustic ground we are

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connected by air and elastic medium we snap our fingers here sound wave

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goes down another sound wave goes down they can amplify or or they can interact additively or

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destructively depending on their frequencies and so on these metaphors we’ve used over and over

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again that i i thought i thought we were in love and now i find out that it seemed to me that we were using this particular metaphoric language

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to cover a lot of ground in the embryogenesis and in the social sphere

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and the emergence of behavior and the evolution of the mind and so on. It was more or less based in this kind of mechanical meaning,

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concept associated with the word field, field, resonance, and so on.

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It had to be extended.

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And quantum mechanics is nothing like this.

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It has a very, very complicated model.

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I mean, it’s good in its fears.

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It has completely different concepts, and that’s good.

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And there are realms in classical physics

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where you have two different models,

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the quantum mechanical one and another one,

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and they’re complementary or supplementary models,

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and that’s useful.

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But if it’s already such a complicated

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model for a single particle

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then what are we talking about with

00:16:49 ►

the state

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of consciousness and extended mind

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or

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the communication

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between animals

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of the same species and communication

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between animals of different species

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and so on. We

00:17:06 ►

don’t have a rich enough vocabulary of metaphors for quantum mechanics to deal with any of

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the things we conventionally deal with, communication, resonance. Telepathy is the sharing of an

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idea, whatever an idea is. We think that it’s kind of a space-time pattern and an extended

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thing. this is a

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cognitive strategy basically

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or a feeling, telepathy is literally a distant

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feeling to telepathy

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yeah, and I don’t really see quantum

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mechanics being very useful

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no, but you see then

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we can’t have a situation where either we have

00:17:40 ►

to pick existing quantum mechanics

00:17:42 ►

or we have to have traditional

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mechanical models.

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And the ideal situation would be a field model that can pick and mix these different metaphors

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in a new way.

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Well, maybe the best thing is to just give up trying to anchor it to the vocabulary of

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quantum physics and invent a vocabulary of macro physical fields.

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Yes.

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We think of a probability wave associated to a bird,

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another probability wave associated to another bird,

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and then collapsing the wave functions with an integration operator

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and the Dirac delta of the two. I don’t know.

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I think it’s… Well then, I mean, the idea of

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morphic fields, as I see it, you see it’s more

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it’s

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it’s not a fully articulated

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model, it’s a kind of

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word or phrase that can cover

00:18:38 ►

a host of possible models

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it’s like a hope for a field

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Yes, so success

00:18:43 ►

metaphorically speaking depends on a certain amount of f hope for a field. Yes, success, metaphorically speaking,

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depends on a certain amount of fuzzing that’s done.

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Yes.

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Now, if someone can come along and say,

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OK, we’ve got the perfect model for these things,

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we call it super-connectionism or whatever,

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that’s fine by me.

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I mean, it just doesn’t have to be called a field,

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but unless you have the idea there’s something there…

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Why not call it something like the vocabulary

00:19:03 ►

that associates with the bell field or the bell phenomenon?

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Call it a dimension of coextensive connectivity.

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Well, that’s not the term they use.

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I mean, that would be introducing sort of rather white-hedion type language.

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And for most people, the hypothesis of coextensive connectivity is rather too much.

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It would be called CC or something.

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It would soon be abbreviated because it’s too much of a mouthful.

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You could call it anything.

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I mean, it may be good to have a completely new name for it,

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but that new name would have to…

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I think I quite often use the word connectivity now or interconnection

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because that’s what it’s about

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but it’s not just an interconnection

00:19:50 ►

in space but in time

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so a connectionist model

00:19:54 ►

is sort of the simplest

00:19:55 ►

doesn’t capture all the

00:19:58 ►

phenomena that are very easy to think about

00:20:00 ►

and

00:20:01 ►

it’s the rubber band approach

00:20:04 ►

it’s the

00:20:04 ►

nodes connected by the rubber bands

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you can flip one and a message

00:20:09 ►

will go down

00:20:10 ►

I use the rubber band method

00:20:12 ►

and then there’s another level up

00:20:14 ►

where each individual has

00:20:17 ►

a vibrating halo or something

00:20:19 ►

which may extend to infinity

00:20:20 ►

because thinner as it goes out

00:20:22 ►

and then the different halos move around

00:20:24 ►

and their communication has to do

00:20:26 ►

with the morphic resonance as it were

00:20:28 ►

in the overlap of these

00:20:30 ►

halos and that

00:20:31 ►

is a more complicated

00:20:34 ►

and higher level model

00:20:36 ►

and from a halo model

00:20:38 ►

with this vibrating

00:20:40 ►

nimbus around each head

00:20:42 ►

you could

00:20:44 ►

then collapse

00:20:46 ►

down to a connectionist

00:20:48 ►

model that would be like a simpler

00:20:49 ►

representation of some of the

00:20:52 ►

information in the nimbic

00:20:54 ►

model.

00:20:55 ►

I like that, the nimbic model.

00:21:00 ►

Well, I have the whole nimbic

00:21:02 ►

theory in my

00:21:03 ►

paper on angels, on the physics of angels, but I didn’t call it that.

00:21:10 ►

There’s a Catholic orgy called the Knights of St. Nimbus.

00:21:14 ►

Is there?

00:21:16 ►

And in the representation of angels of the Renaissance painters, you see that’s where the word nimbus is used, that this golden circle around the head,

00:21:31 ►

no matter from what angle you look,

00:21:33 ►

you always see the entire globe behind the head,

00:21:38 ►

so that the halo cannot possibly be a disk,

00:21:43 ►

like a graduation hat. It’s not like a disk. It disc like a graduation hat.

00:21:45 ►

It’s not like a disc.

00:21:47 ►

It looks like a disc.

00:21:48 ►

Sometimes it’s a elliptical thing,

00:21:52 ►

but the only physical object

00:21:54 ►

that you could imagine

00:21:55 ►

that would appear

00:21:56 ►

as it appears in the paintings

00:21:59 ►

of Renaissance painters

00:22:00 ►

would be a spherical globe

00:22:04 ►

around the head

00:22:05 ►

which appears gold only when seen

00:22:08 ►

from the inside

00:22:09 ►

and therefore any angle you look

00:22:11 ►

you would see the front

00:22:13 ►

hemisphere of the nimbus as

00:22:15 ►

transparent and the back

00:22:18 ►

hemisphere of it as golden

00:22:19 ►

I see, so you’ve worked

00:22:22 ►

out the physics of the nimbus

00:22:23 ►

yes

00:22:23 ►

this is quite an advance yes, well you’ve worked out the physics of the nimbus? Yes.

00:22:27 ►

This is quite an advance, yes.

00:22:31 ►

Yes, well, you look at these things and you don’t think.

00:22:32 ►

It’s quite forgivable because we don’t spend too much time looking at angels.

00:22:37 ►

But the wings, I noticed that the sections are elliptical

00:22:40 ►

and that means when they flap them they’re making circles.

00:22:44 ►

Well, it’s not the physics

00:22:46 ►

honestly it’s the geometry of angels i see but i’d still i wish i knew this earlier

00:22:51 ►

because we in the next edition of the physics of angels maybe we should have a geometrical appendix

00:22:57 ►

yes the geometry of the members the the the uh flapping of the circular motion of the wings

00:23:05 ►

and the mechanics of the seraphim

00:23:08 ►

was it six wings

00:23:09 ►

I don’t know whether that features in your

00:23:12 ►

no, well I have a

00:23:13 ►

unpublished extrapolation

00:23:16 ►

to, what’s it called?

00:23:17 ►

the tetramorph

00:23:18 ►

the ones with four wings

00:23:21 ►

oh I see, I was thinking of the four

00:23:24 ►

angels facing in the four directions,

00:23:26 ►

and their wings are hitched, and Ezekiel saw the wheel.

00:23:29 ►

That may actually be the real meaning of the text.

00:23:32 ►

I think so.

00:23:34 ►

I think so, yes.

00:23:35 ►

We do have, yes, it generates six dimensions.

00:23:38 ►

Well, this is another story.

00:23:40 ►

I stopped sending my papers around, published on paper,

00:23:43 ►

when the papers actually became NIMBY,

00:23:46 ►

and what you call it, pages on the World Wide Web.

00:23:49 ►

But you don’t read papers on the World Wide Web,

00:23:52 ►

so therefore you’re never received.

00:23:54 ►

Maybe I should send you a copy of the Geometry of Angles.

00:23:57 ►

Yes, maybe a physical hard copy would be a good thing to have.

00:24:00 ►

Yes, case.

00:24:02 ►

Well, Terence doesn’t, although he’s constantly on the web.

00:24:05 ►

He doesn’t give signs of instant recognition of his geometrical model.

00:24:10 ►

True. Well, we only write.

00:24:13 ►

We do not read.

00:24:14 ►

We do not have time to read other people’s pages

00:24:16 ►

because we’re so busy writing our own.

00:24:20 ►

It’s an occupational hazard being an author.

00:24:22 ►

There’s no time to read.

00:24:26 ►

So in terms of field theories,

00:24:28 ►

there’s another kind that you haven’t mentioned so far,

00:24:31 ►

which is the hydrodynamical fields.

00:24:34 ►

Yes.

00:24:35 ►

Now, how do they compare with all these other kinds of fields?

00:24:38 ►

Well, the hydrodynamic field is very similar to the electromagnetic field,

00:24:42 ►

but because fluids move and the electromagnetic field doesn’t

00:24:46 ►

move then uh you have your choice with with say shallow water waves and standing on the bank

00:24:54 ►

of the cliff i’m looking down at the beach and i see these waves are coming along so i can think either of the, the water is standing still,

00:25:06 ►

which it is actually, molecules of water moving up and down vertically only,

00:25:11 ►

and then they’re coordinating in such a way as if pulling and pushing

00:25:15 ►

on nearest neighbors so that a wave goes along.

00:25:19 ►

So that’s a Earth-centered coordinate system, as it were.

00:25:24 ►

Or you could ride along the wave,

00:25:27 ►

then the mathematical description is somehow simpler

00:25:31 ►

because three feet ahead of you is lower

00:25:34 ►

and three feet behind you is lower

00:25:36 ►

and you’re at the top of the wave.

00:25:38 ►

So you move along, like surfers do on the crest of the wave.

00:25:41 ►

Geometry is fixed.

00:25:43 ►

It’s not moving along and so your framework moves with

00:25:47 ►

it that’s the code the code will be framed so coordinates are this the most basic thing in

00:25:53 ►

mathematical modeling is coordinates you know there was an extensive geometry of conic sections

00:25:59 ►

along with apollonius very good complete all we know conic sections was known to apollonius, very complete. All we know of conic sections was known to Apollonius,

00:26:05 ►

but it was very difficult and became simple

00:26:08 ►

when the idea of coordinate systems

00:26:11 ►

was abstracted from Renaissance painters by Descartes

00:26:18 ►

and turned into a cognitive strategy

00:26:21 ►

based on rulers and so on.

00:26:25 ►

So the coordinate frame is the basis of everything,

00:26:28 ►

and even if you don’t think of a material field,

00:26:30 ►

quantum mechanics has the coordinate frame anyway.

00:26:35 ►

I think that this hydrodynamics is good

00:26:38 ►

because it forces you to have two different coordinate frames,

00:26:42 ►

one moving relative to the other.

00:26:44 ►

In the tree body problem, for example, you have the Earth, the Sun, and the Moon.

00:26:49 ►

The Moon is considered sort of half of what is called the restricted tree body problem.

00:26:54 ►

The Moon is infinitesimally light compared to the Earth and the Sun.

00:26:58 ►

So the convenient coordinate system is like this.

00:27:01 ►

You draw a line between the Earth and the Sun,

00:27:04 ►

and you measure along it until you get to the place where it balances the

00:27:08 ►

center of mass this might be actually inside the Sun and then you have to take

00:27:15 ►

the coordinate grid and you attach it to that line with the origin of the center

00:27:21 ►

at that point and make it rotate around. So in that coordinate system,

00:27:26 ►

there is no rotation of the Earth and the Sun.

00:27:28 ►

The Sun is fixed a little bit away from the origin.

00:27:31 ►

The Earth is fixed way out there.

00:27:33 ►

In this coordinate plane, you then let the Moon move.

00:27:37 ►

And then that’s the simplest model.

00:27:40 ►

It’s the one that William of Auckland liked,

00:27:42 ►

and the one in which Newton proved Kepler’s laws

00:27:46 ►

so a coordinate is the

00:27:50 ►

most basic thing when mathematics is

00:27:52 ►

going to be used for anything, it’s not a symbol or form

00:27:54 ►

of logic and so on

00:27:56 ►

it’s the coordinate grid in which

00:27:58 ►

you measure something which you measure

00:28:00 ►

well, the aggressiveness of

00:28:02 ►

the gander or the submissiveness

00:28:04 ►

of the goose or

00:28:05 ►

whatever you’re measuring things in a coordinate grid where the members of the

00:28:10 ►

family are placed in a family field there the word field is sort of referring

00:28:16 ►

to the coordinate grid which is the stage in which the actors are placed

00:28:20 ►

together with perhaps some attributes at different places like the temperature

00:28:27 ►

varies from place to place in case you took the temperature only of the

00:28:32 ►

individual birds or the actors in the family or something then temperature

00:28:36 ►

would only be measurable in certain places in the coordinate grid and there

00:28:40 ►

would be no measurements elsewhere and then that’s when you get into

00:28:45 ►

more or less quantum mechanics

00:28:46 ►

tries to deal with this

00:28:48 ►

that you don’t have continuous functions

00:28:50 ►

representing particles

00:28:51 ►

and just continuity

00:28:53 ►

so you think of them as a point

00:28:55 ►

with attributes

00:28:57 ►

the probability wave is sort of the attribute of a point

00:29:00 ►

they have different questions

00:29:02 ►

they have different waves

00:29:03 ►

relative to each other and maybe

00:29:05 ►

even ignorant of each other.

00:29:08 ►

Nothing is more basic

00:29:09 ►

than the coordinate grid.

00:29:15 ►

So does he have a rap on this?

00:29:19 ►

Yes.

00:29:21 ►

What do we have?

00:29:27 ►

So do we conclude that it’s possible to build models

00:29:29 ►

of fields starting from this

00:29:30 ►

hydrodynamic, is the best starting

00:29:33 ►

point in your opinion than this

00:29:35 ►

hydrodynamical system

00:29:36 ►

well if

00:29:37 ►

if mathematics

00:29:41 ►

is going to be at all helpful

00:29:42 ►

in this area of the family field,

00:29:47 ►

and thus if it’s to be at all helpful in the context of psychic pets or any of the other experiments,

00:29:56 ►

we have a mathematical model for the observations of any experiment,

00:30:00 ►

then it’s necessary to choose a simplest case

00:30:06 ►

because it’s already complicated enough.

00:30:09 ►

And then it’s essential to have data.

00:30:12 ►

When Bob Lane, the psychiatrist,

00:30:14 ►

came to be wanted by chaos theory in his practice,

00:30:17 ►

you have to get some numerical data.

00:30:21 ►

I don’t know if ufologists and anthropologists

00:30:23 ►

have very much numerical

00:30:25 ►

data but that would be the start the wish to mathematicize psychology

00:30:29 ►

generally is not a wish to make people healthier or happier it’s a wish to make

00:30:35 ►

psychology more respectable as a science it’s not clear it’s a healthy trend at all though it’s been pursued furiously for nearly a

00:30:46 ►

century the more successful psychoanalytic theories seems to me

00:30:54 ►

something could offer counter data are the least mathematically driven and

00:31:00 ►

depend really on this mysterious business that we call the gifted therapist.

00:31:07 ►

The gifted therapist is not a mathematically defined entity.

00:31:12 ►

Psychology would love to be a science,

00:31:15 ►

but perhaps at the expense of the client base it’s supposed to serve,

00:31:20 ►

which are pathological and robotic human being well the adult psychologist came up with

00:31:29 ►

extensive field theories in the 1930s and 40s but little mathematics what

00:31:36 ►

we’re talking about the family feed no well they have a growing mathematical

00:31:41 ►

model which I think personally is quite promising for the

00:31:45 ►

future of psychology in terms of its potential usefulness in dealing with world problems

00:31:52 ►

and so on. I think it’s very important developments like models for the arms race and for family

00:31:58 ►

conflicts and specific strategies for conflict resolution. These actually might be effective strategies

00:32:06 ►

evolved for the first time

00:32:08 ►

thanks to mathematical modeling

00:32:09 ►

is a possibility that can’t be ruled out.

00:32:11 ►

So I think it’s a valuable exercise

00:32:13 ►

that we should try to develop

00:32:15 ►

a mathematical modeling for family fields

00:32:18 ►

and particularly in families of birds

00:32:20 ►

where there’s extensive data.

00:32:24 ►

It would be great to find a synthetic, up-to-date modern ethologist

00:32:29 ►

who knew of the existence in the literature of actual numerical data

00:32:35 ►

from experiments measured comparable to your experiments

00:32:39 ►

with videotapes where we count how many times in an hour the dog goes to the window

00:32:45 ►

yes

00:32:47 ►

so data, we need more data

00:32:50 ►

but we won’t get more data unless people

00:32:52 ►

have the idea that it’s worth trying to model

00:32:54 ►

that’s the hermeneutics of science

00:32:56 ►

and we need more data in several areas

00:32:58 ►

one, anthropology

00:32:59 ►

where in fact a lot of classical anthropology

00:33:02 ►

involves those kinship structures

00:33:04 ►

of circles and triangles and those kind of family trees, a lot of classical anthropology involves those kinship structures of circles and triangles

00:33:05 ►

and those kind of family trees.

00:33:06 ►

A lot of it actually does have models of the social structure.

00:33:10 ►

That’s what they’ve concentrated on in social anthropology,

00:33:13 ►

classical but with social anthropologies of that kind.

00:33:16 ►

So there’s that data.

00:33:17 ►

Then there’s data from ethology and there could be more.

00:33:21 ►

Quantitative ethology could be done if people had a model to guide them in what they do

00:33:25 ►

Helling’s work

00:33:27 ►

could be extended to classify

00:33:29 ►

different kinds of fields

00:33:31 ►

and look at those of different cultural groups

00:33:33 ►

if you ask lots of Indians and Chinese

00:33:35 ►

you could do that, so these are all

00:33:37 ►

empirical ways of

00:33:39 ►

approaching it

00:33:41 ►

yes, and that seems to be

00:33:43 ►

the only way forward.

00:33:46 ►

Well, mathematical modeling is one question

00:33:48 ►

and the efficacy of it

00:33:50 ►

and then the other is

00:33:51 ►

specifically

00:33:54 ►

field modeling.

00:33:58 ►

You’re going to have to go.

00:33:59 ►

I’m going to have to go.

00:34:00 ►

But I think this was very…

00:34:03 ►

No, I didn’t cut it off, right?

00:34:07 ►

As Terrence seemed to be saying that he thought it was very something or other.

00:34:11 ►

That’s actually where the tape cut off.

00:34:13 ►

So I’m going to assume that Terrence was about to say that he thought their conversation was either very interesting or helpful in some way.

00:34:21 ►

But I’ve got to be honest with you.

00:34:23 ►

The family fields trialogue has been my least favorite so far.

00:34:28 ►

Not that I didn’t get a few nuggets out of it, but it just didn’t seem loaded with golden

00:34:32 ►

ore like some of their earlier conversations.

00:34:35 ►

As far as the tapes that Ralph Abraham loaned Bruce Dahmer and me to digitize, the talk

00:34:40 ►

you just heard was the last one we have a recording of, at least chronologically.

00:34:44 ►

The talk you just heard was the last one we have a recording of, at least chronologically.

00:34:48 ►

And for me, at least, it seemed as if they were running out of steam,

00:34:52 ►

particularly Terrence, who we hardly heard from in this discussion.

00:34:57 ►

And it was less than a year after this trialogue that he was stricken with terminal cancer.

00:35:01 ►

But maybe I’m just imagining a decrease in their energy levels in this podcast.

00:35:08 ►

To test my theory, however, I think that the next series of trilogues I’ll podcast will be the ones that were held at Hazelwood in Devon, England sometime in 1993, and then

00:35:14 ►

you can decide along with me whether you think the early trilogues were more energy and idea

00:35:19 ►

packed than their later conversations were.

00:35:22 ►

On a little different subject, a few weeks ago I mentioned an article that a friend sent me

00:35:27 ►

about a plant whose folk name is Fairy Dreamflower.

00:35:31 ►

And one of the more remarkable things about it

00:35:34 ►

was the fact that apparently you can just sniff it and get high.

00:35:38 ►

Well, that little comment has touched off a flurry of email,

00:35:42 ►

two of which I’ll read right now.

00:35:44 ►

One comes from Nat Bletter, who said,

00:35:46 ►

I’m an ethnobotanist,

00:35:48 ►

the one recently interviewed by KMO on Sea Realm

00:35:50 ►

and Psychonautica about salvia,

00:35:53 ►

and I was really interested in your little note

00:35:55 ►

about Gigi Bong at the end of your last podcast.

00:35:58 ►

My friend studies this genus of plants,

00:36:00 ►

but I can’t find a reference to this species

00:36:03 ►

or the common name fairy dreamflower.

00:36:05 ►

Where was the Is There Sex After Death article published that you mentioned? I have access to

00:36:10 ►

a huge amount of botanical literature at the New York Botanical Garden where I work,

00:36:15 ►

so if I had a reference I could track it down for you. It would kind of make sense if this

00:36:19 ►

genus was psychoactive since cloves, its sister species in the same genus, has some reports of psychoactivity.

00:36:26 ►

But there are no other plants I know of in this family that are psychoactive.

00:36:31 ►

And another email came from Eric who said, any luck on finding some info on the Australian

00:36:37 ►

fairy flower whose fragrance is reportedly intoxicating? The one you mentioned at the

00:36:42 ►

end of podcast 89, I believe. What was the spelling of

00:36:45 ►

the official name? I would like to research it a little. Well, Nat was correct in his guess that I

00:36:51 ►

misspelled the botanical name of this plant a few podcasts back. So here’s the full quote on the

00:36:57 ►

article and the spelling of the name. The article itself was a reprint from the Encyclopedia of Entheogens, published in 2005 by Zoskin Books.

00:37:07 ►

That’s X-A-S, new word, K-I-N, Zoskin’s Books.

00:37:12 ►

And if I’m not mistaken, Zoskin is a town in Australia.

00:37:15 ►

But Google doesn’t seem to be of much help in finding this publication.

00:37:20 ►

The copy of the story that I received was published in RFD number 129, autumn 2007,

00:37:27 ►

which also suggests that this story has an Australian origin,

00:37:32 ►

unless the time warp has already moved me into autumn

00:37:35 ►

without first having had a spring and summer here in sunny Southern California.

00:37:40 ►

Now the full botanical name is spelled, and I’ll go slowly here because I got it wrong the last time.

00:37:46 ►

It’s S as in Sam, S-Y-Z-G-I-U-M.

00:37:52 ►

And the second name is G-I-D-J-I-B-A-N-G.

00:37:59 ►

And the common name is Jijibong.

00:38:01 ►

I think I’m saying that’s right, but it’s G-E-J-E-B-O-N-G. And the folk

00:38:08 ►

name is Fairy Dreamflower, with the old time spelling of fairy as F-A-E-R-I-E. As for distribution

00:38:16 ►

of this plant, the article that I have says, and I quote, at the present early stage of

00:38:22 ►

research into Jijibong, it appears to be restricted to a remote and relatively inaccessible rock ledges on the slopes of certain mountains close to the east coast of Australia.

00:38:33 ►

And in regards to cultivation, the article goes on to say, Jijibong grows so profusely in its natural habitat that it is difficult to understand why it has proved so hard to cultivate.

00:38:45 ►

Research continues.

00:38:47 ►

I’m glad to hear that.

00:38:49 ►

In appearance, Jijibong is a small shrub up to 60 centimeters tall with upright, fluffy,

00:38:56 ►

violet, magenta colored flowers and stiff, narrow, crisp leaves to 25 centimeters by

00:39:03 ►

5 centimeters.

00:39:16 ►

The flower has a characteristic fragrance resembling a blend of gangl, juniper, and clove.

00:39:22 ►

And that hint of clove seems to me to be a confirmation of Nat’s hunch about this plant.

00:39:26 ►

I think the thing about that article that has generated the most interest is the line that says,

00:39:29 ►

the flower acts as a mild hypnotic when sniffed, independent of the dosage.

00:39:34 ►

Similarly, quite small quantities of Jijibong leaves will produce an entheogenic effect,

00:39:39 ►

which is not increased by larger doses.

00:39:42 ►

So now we’re going to have to wait and see if any of our intrepid researchers

00:39:46 ►

can come up with some more information for us about this interesting little plant.

00:39:51 ►

Another thing that Eric said in his email was,

00:39:54 ►

I’ve been interested in ethnobotany, more specifically those within theogenic properties,

00:40:00 ►

since the early 90s.

00:40:01 ►

I was an occasional BPC student back then,

00:40:05 ►

went to a few conferences, classes, workshops,

00:40:07 ►

and other similar events.

00:40:09 ►

I just began converting my old tapes to MP3.

00:40:11 ►

We should trade some recordings someday.

00:40:15 ►

As you probably know, his reference to BPC,

00:40:18 ►

at least I believe, is to the Botanical Preservation Corps,

00:40:23 ►

which I think is still being operated by Rob Montgomery.

00:40:26 ►

And you can find their website at www.botanicalpreservationcorps.com

00:40:34 ►

where Rob has quite a few books and tapes he’s selling.

00:40:38 ►

About a year ago, Rob gave me a call to say that he was thinking about

00:40:41 ►

releasing some of his cassette recordings for me to play here in the salon, but I haven’t had a chance to follow up on that one yet either. Thank you. our other listeners have that you’ve recorded yourself at some of these conferences, well, I’d be happy to consider

00:41:06 ►

them for inclusion in some of our podcasts.

00:41:08 ►

And I’m mentioning this because

00:41:10 ►

each week I get a few offers like this,

00:41:12 ►

and I’m always excited to hear these talks,

00:41:14 ►

and hopefully we’ll be able to play some of

00:41:16 ►

them here in the salon.

00:41:18 ►

Another email came in from someone I’ll just

00:41:20 ►

call Mr. S., who said,

00:41:22 ►

I just wanted to thank you for

00:41:24 ►

all of your hard work and

00:41:25 ►

effort in posting all the McKenna podcasts. I’ve had many hours of enjoyment listening

00:41:30 ►

to them. I often listen to them in bed and hear the bard talking about elf machines in

00:41:35 ►

my sleep. P.S. As I’m a little paranoid, please do not publish my email address or

00:41:42 ►

full name on your website. The reason I’m reading this right now is to assure you that any and all communications I receive,

00:41:48 ►

I keep very confidential.

00:41:50 ►

As much as I’d like to use the full names or even screen names to thank people who write,

00:41:56 ►

and particularly those kind listeners who have sent in donations,

00:42:00 ►

well, I’ve made a point of only using first names or pseudonyms so as to keep your private lives private.

00:42:06 ►

And don’t feel bad about being a bit paranoid.

00:42:09 ►

I can certainly understand that emotion.

00:42:11 ►

And I even live with it myself from time to time.

00:42:15 ►

Because you know what they say.

00:42:16 ►

Just because you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean that no one is after you.

00:42:21 ►

Another email comes from Pio, who says,

00:42:24 ►

I’ve really been enriched by the show, and even if it’s under today’s shadow of oppression,

00:42:29 ►

it really brings the whole salon concept back from the 1800s in Paris.

00:42:34 ►

First world folks seem to become increasingly more insular with technology putting us in front of computer screens

00:42:40 ►

more often than other like-minded humans.

00:42:43 ►

But your show really puts us all in a spot where we can feel like we’re keeping a finger

00:42:47 ►

on the erratic, thrilled pulse of what goes on for the greater psychedelic work today.

00:42:52 ►

Well, thank you for your kind words, Pio.

00:42:54 ►

I really do appreciate them.

00:42:56 ►

And along those lines, I’d like to point out that, yes, it is difficult to overcome all

00:43:02 ►

this tech that now seems to get in the way of person-to-person meetings.

00:43:06 ►

And, of course, that’s one of the reasons I like the salon concept myself.

00:43:11 ►

And if you’re like a significant number of our other fellow salonners,

00:43:14 ►

you’re probably feeling a little bit isolated,

00:43:17 ►

particularly if you don’t have anyone to talk with about these interesting topics.

00:43:21 ►

But I’ve found that one of the things that helps me feel less alone

00:43:25 ►

is to tune into some of the programs

00:43:27 ►

coming out of the UK

00:43:28 ►

on the Cannabis Podcast Network.

00:43:31 ►

In fact, they’ve got a new program over there now

00:43:32 ►

called Lefty’s Lounge

00:43:34 ►

that actually makes me feel like

00:43:36 ►

I’m sitting in my living room

00:43:37 ►

listening to Lefty and his friends

00:43:39 ►

carry on about all kinds of interesting topics.

00:43:42 ►

And the same goes for the other programs

00:43:44 ►

on that network,

00:43:45 ►

which you can find at dopefiend.co.uk.

00:43:51 ►

After you listen to some of these programs for several weeks,

00:43:54 ►

it’s just like getting a phone call from some friends

00:43:56 ►

who are having a party and gave you a call.

00:43:59 ►

It’s not as good as sitting around sharing a pipe or two,

00:44:02 ►

but in my humble opinion, it’s the next best thing.

00:44:05 ►

And if you do join Lefty, well, tell him I said hello.

00:44:08 ►

Continuing with Pio’s email, he said,

00:44:12 ►

As a fellow recovering Catholic, and by the way, Pio, I feel I’m fully recovered now, but I was a recovering Catholic.

00:44:21 ►

I’ve sort of painted myself into a corner surrounded by empiricism and the need to

00:44:26 ►

prove out every idea outside the realm of concrete experience. And at the same time, wishing to crawl

00:44:32 ►

the beckoning walls of the unprovable and the unexplained. I’ve some experience with mushrooms

00:44:38 ►

and I was really interested in attending the shamanic conference in Iquitos in July. I felt

00:44:44 ►

from your talks with Matt Palomary

00:44:45 ►

that there is a sort of in-club mentality

00:44:47 ►

that surrounds contacts in South America.

00:44:50 ►

I’ve noticed this in my readings online as well.

00:44:53 ►

I don’t begrudge anyone not wanting to let others in on their secret,

00:44:57 ►

sort of like the way my relatives treat fishing spots.

00:45:00 ►

I was curious if you could offer any recommendations

00:45:03 ►

or hints of a trail beyond the general advice to look out on the web and ask around to people who have been there.

00:45:09 ►

I’m balkanized not so much by the lack of other psychedelic seekers locally, but by time factors of working in the belly of the corporate beast.

00:45:17 ►

And I feel more compelled each day to find a breakout experience.

00:45:21 ►

And he finished by saying, P.S. My dad was on the Haberfield DDG. Maybe you

00:45:26 ►

two cross wakes at a time or two. Well, I did steam with the Haberfield a time or two, and so I’m going

00:45:32 ►

to assume that your dad and I covered a lot of ocean together, so please tell him hello for me.

00:45:38 ►

And as for the appearance of an in-club mentality surrounding South American contacts, well,

00:45:44 ►

I’m sorry about coming across that way,

00:45:46 ►

and I certainly understand how people can get that opinion.

00:45:50 ►

I can remember that it was only about ten years ago

00:45:53 ►

that I was sitting in the swamps of Florida

00:45:55 ►

and wondering why it was so difficult to find out about reputable Iowa scaros.

00:46:00 ►

And I wish there was an easy answer here,

00:46:02 ►

but the truth is that it’s that old paranoia thing that’s causing this reticence on our part about publishing the names and locations of healers we know to be sincere and true to the spirit of Lady Ayahuasca.

00:46:14 ►

For example, if I gave the contact information for the group of healers that I work with, well, there’s a possibility that they might receive thousands of emails if only a small percentage of our fellow slaughters contacted them.

00:46:27 ►

And if that happened, who could blame them if they told me to not come around anymore?

00:46:32 ►

You know, there isn’t an easy solution to this problem that I know of.

00:46:36 ►

But Pio does mention the conference that Alan Shoemaker has organized for this summer in Iquitos.

00:46:42 ►

Granted, few people are going to be able to take advantage of that due to the expense,

00:46:47 ►

and I know that I would truly love to attend myself,

00:46:49 ►

but my one trip this year is going to be to Burning Man,

00:46:52 ►

and so I won’t be able to make it either.

00:46:55 ►

However, if you’re drawn to ayahuasca like a moth to a flame,

00:47:00 ►

well, then this is the first place I’d probably go if I were you,

00:47:03 ►

because I doubt if there will be a larger assembly of reputable healers

00:47:07 ►

than you’re going to find anywhere else other than at that conference this year.

00:47:13 ►

And I’m sorry that I don’t feel comfortable giving out more information,

00:47:16 ►

but the Ahuascaros who do this work often do it at great personal risk for their own freedom,

00:47:21 ►

and I certainly don’t want to do anything to harm them or their important work.

00:47:27 ►

Another common thread in the email lately has been to ask if we’re sponsoring a theme

00:47:32 ►

camp at Burning Man this year.

00:47:34 ►

Well, after organizing the Planque Norte camp in 2003, I decided that the theme camp organization

00:47:41 ►

was best left to younger people.

00:47:44 ►

It’s an incredibly difficult thing to plan and organize,

00:47:48 ►

and my hat goes off to all of you who are actively engaged in putting together camps

00:47:52 ►

for this year’s burn. For my part, I organized and produced

00:47:56 ►

the Planque Norte lectures there, but not the camp that they’re held in.

00:48:00 ►

This year, we’re going to be with the good folks at Eco Village,

00:48:04 ►

and I’ve been told that we’ll have that gigantic tent again for our lecture series this year.

00:48:09 ►

As the summer progresses I’ll be passing along more information about the lectures but as far as a place to actually camp I’m not the one who can help you on that I’m afraid.

00:48:20 ►

But maybe some of our fellow salonners are looking for help with their camps and will let me know so I can pass the information along.

00:48:26 ►

On a slightly different note, Alicia, who is working with Charlie Grobe and Preet Chopra on the psilocybin study at Harbor UCLA, has posed the following question.

00:48:37 ►

If you were a DJ for a therapeutic psilocybin session in a clinical setting, what would you play?

00:48:46 ►

assignment session in a clinical setting, what would you play? After posting that question on some tribe.net forums, Alicia tells me that she was surprised at how many suggestions she received.

00:48:52 ►

So I thought I’d pass her request along here and see if any of our fellow salonners have some

00:48:56 ►

suggestions along those lines. And if you do, just send them to lorenzo at matrixmasters.com

00:49:02 ►

and I’ll eventually post the list on our psychedelicsalon.org

00:49:06 ►

blog. Well, there’s more mail to read, but there’s no more energy on my part, so I’m going to close

00:49:13 ►

for today. But next week I’ll be playing an interview I recorded the day before yesterday

00:49:18 ►

with John Hanna, who does far more than his share of the heavy lifting for the psychedelic community.

00:49:24 ►

John and I talked about several information resources that are available to you,

00:49:28 ►

including his MindStates conferences.

00:49:30 ►

And I think you’ll enjoy hearing about what he’s been up to lately,

00:49:33 ►

including his latest research into energy drinks,

00:49:37 ►

which is something I could use right now.

00:49:41 ►

Now, before I go, as always, I want to mention that this

00:49:44 ►

and all of the podcasts from the

00:49:45 ►

Psychedelic Salon are protected under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial

00:49:50 ►

Share Alike 2.5 license.

00:49:52 ►

And if you have any questions about that, just click on the Creative Commons link at

00:49:55 ►

the bottom of the Psychedelic Salon webpage, which may be found at www.psychedelicsalon.org.

00:50:03 ►

And if you have any questions, comments, complaints, or suggestions about these podcasts,

00:50:06 ►

well, just send them to lorenzo at matrixmasters.com

00:50:10 ►

My thanks again go out to Chateau Hayouk for the use of your music here in the salon.

00:50:16 ►

And thank you.

00:50:17 ►

Thank you for joining me here in the salon today.

00:50:19 ►

It’s really nice of you to stop by.

00:50:22 ►

For now, this is Lorenzo, signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

00:50:26 ►

Be well, my friends,

00:50:28 ►

and especially you, Queer Ninja.

00:50:30 ►

I know you’re going to be alright.

00:50:31 ►

Take care, my friend.

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