Program Notes
Guest speaker: Rio Hahn
Rio Hahn
Date this lecture was recorded: August 13, 2020
Today’s program features a recent conversation in the live salon with Rio Hahn. He is an explorer, photographer/filmmaker, and author. Popularly known by the sobriquet “Rio,” given to him during his Amazon River explorations. He is a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society; a founding and life member of the Rainforest Club; a Fellow, two-term Director, and past Ombudsman of The Explorers Club, as well as serving three terms as Chairman of the San Diego Chapter. He is the recipient of five Explorers Club Flags, a licensed sea captain, an open water diver, and a founding member of the International Society for Ethnopharmacology. And I should add that he is a friend of mine.
I invited Rio to the salon to tell his stories about the time in the Amazon when Terence and Dennis McKenna joined Wade Davis on the RV Heraclitus for their now-legendary meeting in the jungle. However, the high (no pun intended) point of our conversation was his in-depth discussion of datura. This is the first time that datura has been discussed in the salon.
Sawmi’s Sacred PlantA Report of Unprecedented Datura Use in Nepalby Robert “Rio” Hahn, FRGS, FN’86
RV HeraclitusOwned and Operated by the Institute of Ecotechnics
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic
00:00:22 ►
Salon.
00:00:23 ►
And before we get into today’s program, I first want to give a shout-out to Black Beauty, or Bebe as we know her here in the salon.
00:00:32 ►
It’s Bebe’s silken voice that you hear after I play a recorded lecture here in the salon.
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And as you may know, Bebe lives down under, near Melbourne in fact.
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And I’ve been receiving emails asking if I know how she’s doing with that major lockdown they are now under.
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Well, she’s doing fine.
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We’ve exchanged several emails recently, and just like you and me, she’s doing as best as she can, but her spirits are good.
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I also would like to give a shout out to Rendy and Jake,
00:01:03 ►
two friends who have been listening to my stories for a long time before I started these podcasts.
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And I want to thank you guys for sticking with me all these years, and hopefully we’ll be able to meet in person again one day.
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Now, for today’s program, I’m going to play a recording of this past Thursday’s live salon.
00:01:23 ►
As you know, the Thursday salons are held at 6.30 p.m. London time.
00:01:28 ►
That’s 10.30 in the morning out here on the West Coast.
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And we do that so that our European salonners can more easily join us.
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I guess that I’d probably better come up with a few salons catering to the Australian time zone,
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New Zealand time zones as well, so that Bebe and her friends can also join us sometime.
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Anyway, last Thursday I invited Rio Han to the live salon to tell his stories about the time in the Amazon
00:01:54 ►
when Terrence and Dennis McKenna joined Wade Davis on Rio’s boat and their now legendary meeting in the jungle took place.
00:02:02 ►
and their now legendary meeting in the jungle took place.
00:02:06 ►
However, the high point, no pun intended,
00:02:11 ►
the high point of our conversation was his in-depth discussion of Datura.
00:02:14 ►
And in case you hadn’t noticed it,
00:02:17 ►
this is the first time that Datura has been discussed in the salon.
00:02:23 ►
And since our travel opportunities are somewhat restricted right now, maybe real stories about taking the tour in Kathmandu can at least give us a virtual feeling of having exotic experiences in exotic places.
00:02:34 ►
And as you listen to this conversation, you might even get the bug to begin finding a way to satisfy your own adventurous spirit.
00:02:46 ►
your own adventurous spirit. As you’re going to hear in this podcast, the research vessel Heraclitus is going to be looking for a new crew around the same time that this pandemic is expected to come
00:02:52 ►
to an end. At least the pandemic coming to an end is what us starry-eyed optimists dream of,
00:02:58 ►
so why not at least dream a little? I’ve discovered that every once in a while a
00:03:03 ►
dream can actually come true. So now without any further ado, here is the conversation that transpired in the most recent
00:03:11 ►
live salon. Oh look who’s here. We have a guest here. I didn’t know if he’d show up. Here he is.
00:03:20 ►
Let me see if we can get you unmuted. I didn’t know if Rio would be here.
00:03:25 ►
I invited him, and actually I’ve talked to him a few times via email in March,
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or sometime when the pandemic started, as I understand the story.
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Now we’ll get it straight.
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But as I understand it, Rio, you were on your way to England to visit your grandson,
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and now you’re stuck in Morocco.
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Is that right?
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And now, yes. Just a few days before the flight was supposed to go, they locked down the borders, canceled all the flights, and we’ve been here ever since in a town called Esserwara,
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Esserera, and it’s on the Atlantic coast, and a very, very beautiful
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place to be. Lots of wind, so we’ve been pretty good.
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That helps. And kind of isolated, which is fine.
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A lot of them here, especially now it’s
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the tourist season, and so there are a lot of Moroccan
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tourists around who have come in.
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So what’s your prognosis on getting out of there and getting to England?
00:04:32 ►
Well, going to England is a whole different question.
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And I mean, it’s become rather complicated
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because once we leave,
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unless we’re residents, we can’t come back in being right now.
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No one can come in except residents and citizens.
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And once we leave because of the restriction on Americans, there isn’t many places to go, actually.
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Americans, there isn’t many places to go, actually.
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As the great Gildersleeve used to say, what a revolt and development this is.
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Yes. Well, for now, I’m okay, because we’re doing fine here. Everything’s pretty good.
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And, you know, at some point, yeah, it would be good to be able to come back to the States.
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I guess we’ve got to wait to see what happens here.
00:05:34 ►
Yeah, now they’re talking about not letting Americans back in if they’ve been tested positive.
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So you’ve got another hurdle to get over.
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But I’ve been telling the people here about you for quite a while,
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and that eventually I’d like to talk a little bit about Biosphere 2,
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but let’s just jump into the Amazon, because you were on a boat with Terence McKenna and Wade Davis, as I recall, and I’d like to hear some of those stories. Okay, well, in,
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what, we took the research vessel Heraclitus, which is a ship that I participated in building, which we launched in 75.
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And then in 80, I organized a two-year ethnopharmacological expedition.
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We ended up going 2,000 miles up the Amazon into the Peruvian Amazon
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and I put on board a phytochemical laboratory which allowed me to do extractions from
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fresh plant material and work with shaman there for about two years.
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That’s kind of the big overview of that.
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Terrence and Dennis and Wade Davis all came on to part of the expedition.
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And some work came out of that,
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especially some work that Dennis used in his doctoral thesis.
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And so that was a very interesting early intersection.
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Dr. Richard Evans Schultes, who was head of the Harvard Botanical Museum and pretty much known as the father of modern ethnobotany,
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introduced Wade and I when Wade was there at
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Harvard as still as a graduate student. And how did Terrence get hooked into that whole thing?
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You know, I’m trying to remember, but I have a feeling that, a recollection, that maybe wade contacted them i it’s it’s foggy in my memory what i did
00:07:50 ►
can you repeat that you’re kind of breaking up um from dennis’s book i recall that i think wade and
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uh dennis had a connection with the same university in van? That’s, yes, yeah, because Wade’s from that area.
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He’s still living there, I think.
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Well, he moved back there now, and actually Dennis moved up there.
00:08:18 ►
Yeah.
00:08:18 ►
In fact, we were just talking a week or so ago here in the salon
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about the article that Wade Davis just published
00:08:25 ►
about the end of America. And it’s a dynamite article. I can’t remember what magazine it was in,
00:08:32 ►
but it’s really worth reading. Was it Rolling Stone? That’s what I thought. Yeah. It’s really
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worth reading. It’s a long article, but it’s, you know, he’s got the perspective of distance from the United States that really I think helps a lot.
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So that’s really worth reading.
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Isn’t that the time, though, that Wade, when you were together,
00:08:54 ►
when Wade and Terrence kind of got into it a little bit?
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Yeah, there was some stuff that went on there.
00:09:12 ►
that went on there. I think that Wade was not so happy with Terrence especially and then I think Dennis as well just indulging in a lot of different substances during the
00:09:20 ►
time they were supposed to be doing you know collecting and field work and in that sense you know that wasn’t
00:09:27 ►
really Terence’s thing either
00:09:29 ►
you know he was not
00:09:34 ►
the type of field scientist
00:09:35 ►
that Wade Davis is or probably
00:09:37 ►
even Dennis who was more
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Dennis was more laboratory oriented
00:09:42 ►
ultimately
00:09:42 ►
yeah Wade really picked up on Schulte’s, you know, trail, I think,
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and is sort of the premier of the in-the-jungle kind of ethnobotanist now, isn’t he?
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Yes.
00:09:56 ►
Yeah.
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Though he did move off into more dealing in anthropology,
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into more dealing in anthropology,
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and then also really got into his writing,
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which he said at one point to me, that he had really found his voice
00:10:15 ►
and found that to be tremendously satisfying.
00:10:20 ►
Yeah, he built himself as an anthropologist in this article,
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and I think you’re right. That’s where he built himself as an anthropologist in this article, and I think you’re right.
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That’s where he sees himself primarily.
00:10:29 ►
But as a little side note, I know that he and Terrence had some issues.
00:10:34 ►
And in, I think it was January 99 at the Entheobotany Conference in Palenque,
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Wade Davis was one of the scheduled speakers. And we all got down there
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and found out he’d canceled because he didn’t want to spend two weeks in the jungle with Terrence
00:10:51 ►
again, is what he said. But here a couple months ago, I think it was the Symposia live streams,
00:11:02 ►
where Wade and Dennis McKenna were both there together talking.
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I don’t know if you saw that, but Wade really mellowed out and allowed us how,
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well, there was a lot of tension back then,
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but it really wasn’t all that necessary, it seems like.
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So it seems like they reconciled the whole thing pretty well.
00:11:20 ►
There was, you know, kind of around with a number of of people a lot of tension as people were finishing
00:11:28 ►
their phds and you know that you know did somehow bring about a lot of tension at the time
00:11:37 ►
and also i think they were coming from very different perspectives right but um way did say at a talk i think this was the talk he gave in
00:11:49 ►
gerona uh where let’s see was that last year yeah last year a year ago uh end of
00:11:56 ►
may beginning of june we had the world third world ayahuasca Conference in Girona, Spain.
00:12:06 ►
And he said that he really credited Terrence and Dennis with keeping things going,
00:12:12 ►
you know, through the period when everything was shut down.
00:12:18 ►
Yeah, that’s what he said in his conversation with Dennis, too,
00:12:21 ►
that he said that in retrospective retrospectively he
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looked back and saw that without what mainly what Terrence was doing and spreading the word the
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whole thing could have died on the vine and that Terrence kept the talk of it alive which is you
00:12:35 ►
know pretty obvious now but it wasn’t back then I don’t think right I think a lot of people you
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know who’ve told me that they were really inspired by Terrence.
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Yeah.
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And, of course, Terrence was that type of charismatic figure.
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And in his strange way of speaking, he sent in to mesmerize people.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, we’ve listened to a lot of Terrence here in the salon.
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And he’s been the first person to say, hey, you know, I don’t believe everything I say.
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You know, I’m an entertainer, first of all.
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And he kind of got stuck on his 2012 thing, time wave, because, you know, he was making his living going around talking about it.
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But he kind of painted himself into the corner with the end of the world in 2012.
00:13:18 ►
And, of course, he bowed out 12 years before that.
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So predicting the future is not really a good thing for
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profits to do i don’t think at least the future or closer than 150 years or so
00:13:32 ►
i i wonder if you know when i recall when terence originally it con and maybe he contacted me that’s
00:13:42 ►
what i’m saying so maybe he contacted me after wayne what I’m saying. So maybe he contacted me after Wade made the connection.
00:13:47 ►
In any case, we were talking about he presented himself as an ornithologist.
00:13:52 ►
Oh, really?
00:13:53 ►
Yeah.
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But like you say, field work was not his long suit after he quit being a butterfly collector, I guess.
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Right.
00:14:04 ►
Tell us a little more about the Heraclitus, because
00:14:07 ►
Raphael has been here a few times, and Raphael spent a year or so on the Heraclitus a couple
00:14:12 ►
years ago, right? He did, he did. So the Heraclitus is an 82-foot ferrocement Chinese junk, which incorporates an ancient design and modern materials.
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For example, we have aluminum mass uses the modern material of ferrocement.
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And at the moment, it is in Roses, Spain, which is about an hour north of Barcelona.
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And it’s going through a complete rebuild.
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It’s actually, at the moment, we’re stopped until probably September.
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Hopefully we can get going again next month.
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They were doing better than they re-locked down, you know,
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and we’ll just have to see what’s out if people can get back to work
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but we’ve got a crew there who is doing the work and then we’ve brought in some professional
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people to help with the cementing because that’s a very very difficult labor intensive
00:15:19 ►
work and we’re using now a new polymer type of cement so we’re hoping we can get a lot longer
00:15:27 ►
life out of it but still you know launched in 75 and what been several years since we put it up
00:15:35 ►
into dry dock because there needed a lot more work than we had originally thought but the ship is uniquely designed for a group of people it’s designed to be
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sailed by a minimum of seven people and about a maximum of 14 let’s say we like to keep it around
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12 and everybody does everything to some extent obviously some people get much more involved in the say, sailing
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than they might in whatever the scientific
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project is at the time.
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We also do theater
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as a way of
00:16:13 ►
group dynamics.
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And so, again, some people
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get more into that. Others just,
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okay, I’ll do it. It’s happening.
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And
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it’s usually a mixed crew, men and women.
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Very often, you know, young people are predominant,
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probably of young people, but still older people come on board, no problem.
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And the ship’s pretty much self-sufficient.
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It’s got a low draft, so it’s able to go into coastal areas.
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It’s got a low draft, so it’s able to go into coastal areas.
00:16:52 ►
That’s one of the design features was that we could go into shallow draft areas.
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Now, what’s the mission going to be when it’s refitted?
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What’s the mission, the next mission going to be?
00:17:04 ►
The next mission that we’re discussing is to, and of course,
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all of this now is subject to what happens with the coronavirus,
00:17:09 ►
but to go down the West Coast of Africa
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and then across and go back into the Amazon
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and then come back out and do sort of a circular thing
00:17:21 ►
around the Atlantic Ocean following the you know, the trade winds.
00:17:26 ►
So when we’re finished, I think we’ve got, because of the delays now,
00:17:32 ►
and we don’t know, I’m going to say two years, maybe sooner.
00:17:38 ►
But I think, you know, with everything kind of going up and going down, that that’s not impossible.
00:17:43 ►
with everything kind of going up and going down,
00:17:44 ►
that that’s not impossible.
00:17:49 ►
I’ll type into the chat here the website where you can look for more information about it
00:17:54 ►
and what’s going on and also see photographs.
00:17:59 ►
And I think there might be some pictures there from the Amazon
00:18:04 ►
and then the Around the Tropic World expedition, which I did following that expedition.
00:18:11 ►
Let me just make sure I’ve got this right.
00:18:15 ►
Okay, there it is.
00:18:18 ►
RVHeraclitus.org
00:18:20 ►
Right, RVHeraclitus.org
00:18:23 ►
RV for Research Vessel, I assume. Absolutely. Good. right rvheraclitus.org rv for research vessel i assume absolutely good and what type of research
00:18:30 ►
on the next leg will they be focusing on uh oceanographic or or the coast we’ve been doing
00:18:39 ►
a lot of work on oral histories for several years now, mainly concentrating in the Mediterranean.
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But now we will extend that project. There was also the possibility of doing a project,
00:18:56 ►
and we’ll see again where it’s at, because we discussed this before the virus took off.
00:19:03 ►
In association with an artist who’s exhibiting at the Smithsonian on tracing the black history,
00:19:14 ►
the history of the black people’s coming out of Africa.
00:19:17 ►
And so we may be able to get involved in that, again, depending on what’s happening at the time and then in the amazon
00:19:25 ►
i would like to see it go back into an ethnopharmacological research program
00:19:32 ►
we’ve done over the years a lot of work with coral reefs that went on for quite a while
00:19:40 ►
we’ve done you know drilling of course samples and studying climate change so there’s been just
00:19:49 ►
a whole array of projects over the years but i think the and the other one that we want to do
00:19:54 ►
is something with plastics um looking into something where we can help maybe coastal
00:20:03 ►
communities small coastal communities that usually have a lot of plastics, you know,
00:20:08 ►
washing ashore to find ways to deal with that problem.
00:20:15 ►
So I’ve been doing some research into that area of repurposing,
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how you can repurpose plastics, especially, you know,
00:20:22 ►
plastic water bottles and the like.
00:20:25 ►
Well, real, as you, as you interview some of these people,
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I hope they’re audio interviews too.
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And if you have some interviews that you think would be interesting to a wide
00:20:36 ►
variety of people, I’d be happy to, you know,
00:20:39 ►
look into podcasting some of them and spreading them out a little bit more and
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giving you some publicity for your work.
00:20:45 ►
Okay.
00:20:46 ►
A lot of them are because we were studying the coastal areas and the disappearance of the fishing,
00:20:53 ►
the traditional fishing cultures.
00:20:56 ►
I don’t know, you know, it doesn’t quite fit right in, but if, you know, you think they’re appropriate, certainly.
00:21:03 ►
Well, you know, I’m’m a sailor and anything to do
00:21:06 ►
with the ocean i’m interested in and before you got here we were just talking to mary she just
00:21:11 ►
had an exciting uh ride through the straits of san juan on a 30-foot uh sailboat so we have
00:21:17 ►
sailors among us and uh okay you know i don’t think we have to be strictly into psychedelics
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here in the salon because uh psychedelics you, you know, is thinking outside the box.
00:21:28 ►
And when we’re thinking about the environment and immigration and history, I think we can get out of the box and it’ll fit into the salon quite well.
00:21:38 ►
So, you know, it doesn’t have to be about drugs.
00:21:41 ►
Okay.
00:21:48 ►
about drugs. Okay. You know, I’ve been on interviews in the past where they said,
00:21:54 ►
no, we can’t talk about drugs. Now I have to say, you don’t have to talk about drugs.
00:22:01 ►
You know, what a world. But speaking of drugs, there’s something that you talked about when we first met years ago, and I’ve never followed up on it yet, and I’ve probably
00:22:06 ►
got this completely wrong, and so I want to get it straightened out before I repeat lies about it,
00:22:11 ►
but as I recall, you did detour in the Himalayas and almost had an OD. Is that true?
00:22:20 ►
Well, I was initiated into the use of detourura by a Hindu Swami, Swami Dharamjyoti.
00:22:29 ►
And I guess it depends on the definition of an OD.
00:22:38 ►
And I’m much more adept at using it.
00:22:41 ►
And so that hasn’t happened since but when Swami
00:22:46 ►
dosed me one night in Kathmandu
00:22:48 ►
we were
00:22:50 ►
getting ready to go to a
00:22:51 ►
Hindu ceremony that
00:22:53 ►
only he
00:22:55 ►
you know he
00:22:57 ►
had the ability to bring me as
00:22:59 ►
a Westerner into it
00:23:01 ►
and so he gave
00:23:04 ►
me some Dettura and i took in his room we were
00:23:08 ►
talking before we went out and i was walking to the taxi we had uh waiting for us and the next
00:23:16 ►
thing i knew i was picking myself up off the ground so something had you know basically i completely blacked out and i’ve heard some others who have
00:23:30 ►
had a similar experience and uh but i recovered myself uh he got quite concerned but i was i mean i was having quite
00:23:49 ►
a ride but i was fine and so i gave uh since that time i wrote an article about it called
00:23:58 ►
swami’s sacred plant and i can refer to that. It’s downloadable off my website.
00:24:08 ►
And,
00:24:08 ►
um,
00:24:10 ►
it’s okay with you.
00:24:12 ►
I would like to,
00:24:13 ►
uh,
00:24:13 ►
podcast our conversation we’re having right now.
00:24:16 ►
And I’ll put the links in there to,
00:24:18 ►
uh,
00:24:18 ►
send them to your website.
00:24:19 ►
I think people would be really fascinated to read that.
00:24:21 ►
Uh,
00:24:22 ►
do you have any idea what the dose was that you had?
00:24:24 ►
What’s What amount?
00:24:27 ►
No, I don’t.
00:24:29 ►
Because he made it, at least in my mind right now,
00:24:33 ►
maybe there’s something in the article,
00:24:34 ►
but it wasn’t a situation where I could say, hey, stop, let me weigh that.
00:24:41 ►
It already made it into a paste.
00:24:44 ►
That was the way he prepared it. And then he made it into a paste. That was the way he prepared it.
00:24:46 ►
And then he put it inside a beetle.
00:24:50 ►
And that was the way he took it in the traditional manner.
00:24:58 ►
I think that on two different occasions in our ayahuasca circle,
00:25:03 ►
the ayahuasquero had included some datura in his brew,
00:25:07 ►
which actually did cause a problem for one man.
00:25:10 ►
But I can’t really say I ever took datura, except one time at dinner at your house,
00:25:16 ►
you had these beautiful trees just loaded with blossoms.
00:25:20 ►
And after dinner, when you serve tea, we all have a detour blossom in our tea and that’s
00:25:25 ►
the closest i ever came to taking it the way i recommend if anyone’s interested and i will say
00:25:34 ►
that it’s a very dangerous and deadly drug though it has obviously very good uses, is that the way I work with it now is that I dry usually
00:25:50 ►
the flower and then break it up into small, not terribly small, but into small pieces and maybe in a pipe with a bit of marijuana base put some and then smoke it
00:26:10 ►
and I tell people to start out with just a pinch really and see how the effect is
00:26:19 ►
usually the effect does not last for very long so you’ll be able to see where you’re at and how to gauge it.
00:26:27 ►
But you do want to be careful because one of the things about detour is what
00:26:32 ►
happened to me, for example,
00:26:34 ►
where I just totally blacked out and the next thing I knew, you know,
00:26:38 ►
I was picking myself up.
00:26:41 ►
So you want to give it a little time to take effect before you take any more
00:26:45 ►
than just say, oh, nothing happened.
00:26:48 ►
You know, hit it again.
00:26:51 ►
Do you have any memories of a Datura trip?
00:26:57 ►
Because I understand it’s a powerful dissociative.
00:27:00 ►
And I’m just wondering, can you bring anything back?
00:27:04 ►
Yeah, on a light dose
00:27:07 ►
I mean datura technically is called a delirium and that I have found that on light doses
00:27:14 ►
and that’s why I encourage the smoking approach because you can control it quite accurately. I’m fine. My memory is there. I remember what happened. And I’ve never smoked
00:27:29 ►
enough to have one of those blackouts. When I had that blackout in Kathmandu, it was I took it orally.
00:27:37 ►
And I don’t recommend that at all, because it’s very unpredictable. Some of the stories you hear, somebody
00:27:47 ►
makes a tea out of it, drinks a whole bunch, no effect,
00:27:52 ►
drinks some more, and then the next thing, they wake up
00:27:55 ►
three days later and their friends tell them, you were doing this and you were doing
00:28:00 ►
that. To me, that’s not
00:28:01 ►
effective and you’re not going to bring anything
00:28:05 ►
back from it, Ian.
00:28:07 ►
Yeah, that’s somebody’s overdosed.
00:28:09 ►
Do you mind, can you share a specific
00:28:11 ►
memory?
00:28:14 ►
Can you share a specific memory?
00:28:15 ►
One of the things that I notice
00:28:17 ►
usually
00:28:18 ►
as it’s beginning to affect me
00:28:21 ►
is that my vision becomes
00:28:23 ►
much more acute and my hearing becomes more acute.
00:28:28 ►
I also found that it encourages conversation.
00:28:33 ►
And again, this is all in lower doses.
00:28:36 ►
In fact, at the International Transpersonal Conference 2017 in Prague,
00:28:43 ►
I made a presentation on the potential of Datura as a therapeutic
00:28:49 ►
aid because of its ability to get you into an altered state. I think in some cases the
00:28:59 ►
delirium quality is actually useful and helpful and because it only lasts maybe for an hour
00:29:07 ►
when you’re again when you’re smoking it once you figure out how much do i want to smoke
00:29:13 ►
and when you get comfortable and you can remember what happened so i think that it has great
00:29:20 ►
potential in that way and you know i’d encourage people to try it if you’re so inclined.
00:29:27 ►
Again, with the caveat that it is very dangerous, can be very dangerous, can lead to death, and overdose.
00:29:36 ►
You’re completely out of control.
00:29:39 ►
It’s definitely not for the faint of heart or for the inexperienced.
00:29:42 ►
It should only be a really experienced.
00:29:44 ►
You’re not selling it to me.
00:29:47 ►
It needs to be a very experienced
00:29:49 ►
psychonaut like somebody who knew Terence
00:29:52 ►
at Esalen back in the 90s
00:29:53 ►
like Ian.
00:29:58 ►
It’s not something
00:29:59 ►
to play around with for sure.
00:30:01 ►
Do you have the ability to make any kind
00:30:04 ►
of experiential comparison of
00:30:06 ►
the experience of smoking detour and smoking salvia divinorum just because that’s something
00:30:11 ►
that is more broadly on people’s experience menu these days i to be honest with you i’ve not done
00:30:18 ►
much with salvia i didn’t find that i had much of an effect from it.
00:30:29 ►
And either that could have been the dose, the strain, or just myself.
00:30:31 ►
So, no, I can’t really compare them.
00:30:40 ►
Well, Rio, I’ve learned that approximately 25% of adults don’t have enough receptors to have a true salvia experience.
00:30:43 ►
I’m one of them. I’ve tried all kinds of, you know,
00:30:47 ►
six times, 20 times and all like that. And I only get the sweats. I never really have an experience
00:30:53 ►
of any kind. And you probably have a similar sort of biology that just doesn’t let it, you know,
00:31:02 ►
bind like that. And yet, I know some people with one
00:31:05 ►
hit of salvia and they’re gone for
00:31:06 ►
an hour.
00:31:07 ►
So it’s
00:31:09 ►
definitely not one size fits
00:31:11 ►
all.
00:31:13 ►
Interesting.
00:31:14 ►
Is there any substance that
00:31:17 ►
you would say your experiences were similar
00:31:19 ►
to on Datura?
00:31:24 ►
Maybe a little bit sometimes, you know,
00:31:28 ►
on certain cannabis strains, you know, in a high, high dose.
00:31:34 ►
So get kind of disoriented,
00:31:37 ►
but it’s probably more disorientation than delirium effect.
00:31:43 ►
So I think Datura is quite unique in its properties.
00:31:49 ►
And that and your hesitation in trying to find something comparable is enough to get people
00:31:54 ►
like me saying, okay, now that’s something totally new. I got to give it a try. Fortunately,
00:31:59 ►
I’m old enough that I don’t do that anymore. But I have to admit, that’s tempting.
00:32:07 ►
old enough that I don’t do that anymore but I have to admit that’s tempting apparently uh Carlos Castanedas for all of his whole canon um was he could handle his detour and that was something
00:32:15 ►
that that was a that he was apparently it’s the uh it’s the drug of choice for one in 50 shamans
00:32:22 ►
and if you can pilot it and you know,
00:32:25 ►
you’re done,
00:32:26 ►
then it,
00:32:26 ►
you know,
00:32:27 ►
you can transform into a crow or whatever it is and get visions from,
00:32:32 ►
from afar or whatever.
00:32:33 ►
And that a lot of his based on his experience with,
00:32:37 ►
uh,
00:32:38 ►
with day Tura and from where I grew up in Los Angeles,
00:32:42 ►
that was the,
00:32:43 ►
um,
00:32:44 ►
uh,
00:32:44 ►
we had it growing everywhere.
00:32:46 ►
And the Chumash would use it for their coming-of-age rituals.
00:32:51 ►
And I worked on Catalina, as Lorenzo will know.
00:32:57 ►
And the Pimu out there, they would have it as their coming-of-age ritual.
00:33:02 ►
And probably in a higher strength than
00:33:05 ►
on the mainland because they about one out of ten from what I read would die from the from the ritual
00:33:11 ►
and uh you know good way to regulate population especially among young you know young men on an
00:33:17 ►
island so that was how they you know possibly how they kept their their down haven’t heard
00:33:22 ►
and by the way it has written an interesting book about some of these experiences is it has how they kept their terms down. I haven’t heard anything about detour.
00:33:27 ►
Ian has written an interesting book about some of these experiences.
00:33:29 ►
Has it published yet,
00:33:30 ►
or is it still a pre-publication?
00:33:34 ►
I finished it,
00:33:37 ►
and I’ve got an agent,
00:33:38 ►
I’ve got a new agent,
00:33:40 ►
and she’s going to take it out
00:33:41 ►
and hopefully we’ll bring McKenna to the masses.
00:33:45 ►
Once it’s out there, I’ll really promote it here
00:33:48 ►
because there’s some really good trip stories in there.
00:33:50 ►
It’s a coming-of-age book, actually.
00:33:55 ►
Rio, can you give me one image,
00:33:58 ►
something that you brought back, one memorable experience from De Tura,
00:34:05 ►
just for curiosity’s sake?
00:34:10 ►
Well, I think
00:34:11 ►
the biggest
00:34:14 ►
thing is
00:34:15 ►
well, the two things
00:34:18 ►
which kind of go together. One is
00:34:20 ►
the delirium.
00:34:22 ►
So, I mean, things do kind of
00:34:24 ►
change in that sense. And then the other is the delirium so i mean things do kind of change in in that sense and then the other is the visual
00:34:31 ►
and audio acuity like that particular night in katmandu just going to that hindu ceremony
00:34:39 ►
was mind-blowing i mean and maybe it would have been mind-blowing in another state as well but the
00:34:45 ►
datura certainly brought me there now i will say um that swami and you read about his practice
00:34:53 ►
in my article which is a unique oral practice and i go into that um did tell me that he was a Sanskrit scholar. And he said that a lot of his studies,
00:35:08 ►
especially with Sanskrit,
00:35:09 ►
that he had been under the influence of Dattura,
00:35:13 ►
that if he wasn’t under Dattura,
00:35:16 ►
he could not remember.
00:35:18 ►
So that gives you an example,
00:35:22 ►
maybe of, you know of that type of effect.
00:35:26 ►
But we call that state-specific knowledge usually.
00:35:33 ►
Sorry, Ian, go ahead.
00:35:35 ►
I was just wondering if it grew out there.
00:35:38 ►
Is it endemic to the Himalayan foothills?
00:35:43 ►
In India and Nepal, yes.
00:35:46 ►
Huh, interesting.
00:35:48 ►
Yeah.
00:35:49 ►
And like you say, in Southern California,
00:35:52 ►
in L.A. and Southern California,
00:35:54 ►
it grows all over the place here.
00:35:56 ►
Right.
00:35:56 ►
Now, usually in Southern California,
00:35:59 ►
I’ve found in any way is the Brugmansia tree.
00:36:03 ►
So that’s different than Datura, the Datura bush.
00:36:09 ►
But the effect is very good.
00:36:12 ►
And I find, I have a collection now of I don’t know how many strains of it.
00:36:17 ►
Some of them, you know, are a little sweeter than others.
00:36:21 ►
But, you know, the variation can be tremendous
00:36:27 ►
in the chemical constituents
00:36:29 ►
so that’s why you need to be very careful
00:36:32 ►
and probably
00:36:34 ►
even though eventually I would like to work out
00:36:37 ►
this is an okay dose
00:36:39 ►
for the moment just start with a pinch
00:36:42 ►
and I’d like to point out that not everybody peaks in their 20s,
00:36:49 ►
because I don’t know that Rio has peaked yet.
00:36:54 ►
Well, I hope not.
00:36:57 ►
And for what it’s worth, I think it’s more of a 20 to 25-year period,
00:37:03 ►
because I didn’t start psychedelics until i was in my 40s
00:37:07 ►
and i really peaked in my mid 50s and you know i’m in my late 70s now and i you know i’m a cannabis
00:37:14 ►
user and occasional little acid now and then mushrooms once in a while but uh i i definitely
00:37:20 ►
peaked in my usage uh 10 years ago do Do you feel like that stood you in good stead because your mind was sort of, you had a greater sort of rational mind and experience so that when you put the psychedelic lens on that, you had more of an, or was it harder to break you apart to have the full psychedelic experience?
00:37:46 ►
Like how did it hit you when you first started?
00:37:48 ►
It first hit me in that I sure wasted my life during the 60s by not doing this.
00:37:54 ►
I started too late.
00:37:57 ►
You know, I think that it was good for me.
00:38:01 ►
I’m not saying it’s good for everybody to wait so late in life.
00:38:04 ►
I’m too impulsive and I would have to wait so late in life. I’m too
00:38:05 ►
impulsive and I would have killed myself by now, you know, earlier. So I was 42 when I had my first
00:38:10 ►
experience. But here’s the thing is I read all of the, the, uh, Casaneda books before I’d had my
00:38:19 ►
first acid trip and before I’d had my first mushroom or ayahuasca trip, I just had cannabis
00:38:23 ►
and MDMA. And so I read all those books and I didn’t even realize he talked about the tour until just now
00:38:29 ►
when you said it you know I read them so far back that I don’t remember that much of them
00:38:33 ►
uh so I think that uh uh it doesn’t really matter the age you are as long as you’re you’re cautious
00:38:41 ►
however that said uh my friend over in England, the dope fiend,
00:38:46 ►
he’s in his early 30s now, but he was in his early 20s when I first met him.
00:38:51 ►
And he was really advocating for people to not smoke pot until they’re 21, make sure all the
00:38:56 ►
neurons were, you know, connected and everything. So that came from somebody who is a real pothead.
00:39:03 ►
And, you know, I think that young people, the later you wait, the better off you’ll be because you’ll be a little more cautious and like that.
00:39:12 ►
In my case, it was important because I even in my 40s, I did things that were just too dangerous to do and I should never have done them.
00:39:20 ►
But I didn’t know I didn’t have any peers.
00:39:22 ►
I didn’t have anybody to talk to.
00:39:23 ►
You know, I was out there by myself. And so anything that came down the pike I’d swallow it
00:39:28 ►
but before we get off the tour I’ve got another question I want to ask
00:39:32 ►
Rio but does anybody have other questions they’d like to get into
00:39:36 ►
yes I do um and you mentioned the swami that he needed Dakturas to remember,
00:39:50 ►
and I’m thinking remember what?
00:39:52 ►
And then you mentioned state system knowledge.
00:39:56 ►
What does that mean, that you remember things in a certain state?
00:40:02 ►
Yeah, so Swami was, amongst other things a sanskrit scholar and he told me that
00:40:10 ►
because his normal state was he was taking datura all through the day
00:40:17 ►
and so he was constantly on it in a certain state of consciousness. And in his case, he had started as a young boy.
00:40:28 ►
So he had a tremendous, you know, ability to take a lot without having a problem.
00:40:34 ►
But there is something which is called state-specific knowledge,
00:40:41 ►
meaning that you can only access that knowledge, that information or understanding
00:40:46 ►
when you’re in a certain state of consciousness similar to the one in which you originally had the insights or that experience.
00:40:58 ►
So that’s what he was describing. And I don’t know your own personal, you know,
00:41:06 ►
history and use of different substances,
00:41:10 ►
but I think that I know I’ve experienced a similar thing where,
00:41:19 ►
you know, it’s not sort of in my waking consciousness,
00:41:22 ►
maybe some insight that I had at a particular time and I
00:41:28 ►
get back in that state of consciousness and I say oh okay I can see that and so on and so forth
00:41:35 ►
that I may have quote-unquote forgotten when I’m in a lower state of consciousness yeah this remembering what we’ve forgotten is really interesting
00:41:47 ►
um one time i was uh by accident uh took some windowpane acid i i didn’t mean to it like got
00:41:59 ►
into my tea somehow and um and i haven’t tripped very much at all so i truly did not know what was going on
00:42:09 ►
um i i was reading a book on zen and i thought well maybe this is satori and then i didn’t want
00:42:16 ►
satori anymore it was it was baffling what was happening um but i went down to a lake and I watched by like the crescent moon,
00:42:26 ►
the reflection on the lake.
00:42:28 ►
And it was all these Sanskrit symbols.
00:42:33 ►
As far as I know, I mean, I was, I’m from Wisconsin, you know,
00:42:37 ►
I didn’t know much about Sanskrit and I knew I,
00:42:43 ►
by reading it, I knew I, by reading it, I, I saw the, I knew the secrets of the universe, but then when it wore off, I forgot it all.
00:42:58 ►
Probably has happened to a few other people, but that, when you said that state induced you know memory that’s what i’ve always been
00:43:10 ►
baffled by that like how did i know that what was i reading what was i on to so this is such
00:43:16 ►
interesting stuff thank you you know that that experience you know what i learned in that state
00:43:24 ►
i i one morning was uh coming down coming down around seven in the morning.
00:43:28 ►
I was coming down from an all night acid trip. I was over in Daytona Beach working.
00:43:32 ►
And I had breakfast in the Volusa Diner and I saw a biker guy and the waitress interacting and they were at the table next to me.
00:43:43 ►
And I had the biggest aha moment I’ve
00:43:47 ►
ever had in my life I I understood the meaning of life and I rushed back to my office and I wrote
00:43:54 ►
I found the meaning of life in the Belusa diner and I couldn’t get any farther
00:43:59 ►
I had no memory of what the meaning of life is, so I’ve still been searching for it.
00:44:09 ►
But, Rio, I’d like to kind of turn the corner a little bit,
00:44:13 ►
because you were involved in one of the most fascinating projects in the United States in many years.
00:44:17 ►
It’s the Biosphere 2 project.
00:44:19 ►
And the first time I went to a party at your house, Tango and John Allen was there,
00:44:24 ►
and a number of the Biospherians.
00:44:26 ►
Could you tell us a little bit about that project?
00:44:28 ►
Because weren’t you the communications director for that project?
00:44:31 ►
I was both responsible for bringing in contributions and also then the communications director. And I pretty much, with my team, designed and built the communication system
00:44:49 ►
that allowed the biospherians, the people who were inside the biosphere,
00:44:55 ►
to communicate between Biosphere 2 and Biosphere 1,
00:44:59 ►
which is what we call where we live.
00:45:02 ►
So Biosphere 2 was a 3.14 acre,
00:45:08 ►
had a footprint of 3.14 acres,
00:45:11 ►
closed system that was materially closed,
00:45:17 ►
but energetically and informationally open.
00:45:20 ►
With a dome over it.
00:45:23 ►
Not a formal dome, but using the structure, Bucky Fuller’s structure,
00:45:28 ►
which was then one of his students, Peter Pierce, designed for the biosphere. So it allowed for
00:45:37 ►
long expanses of glass to be held without any internal supports. And the first major closure, which is the one that I was communications director for,
00:45:51 ►
communications systems director, was a two-year closure in 91-93.
00:46:01 ►
And we were able to recycle all of their air and water and food
00:46:08 ►
and they produced about 80% of their food.
00:46:11 ►
They grew it inside.
00:46:13 ►
The other 20% had been grown before the closure actually occurred.
00:46:19 ►
And it got a lot of worldwide press, you know, some positive, some negative.
00:46:24 ►
it got a lot of worldwide press, you know, some positive, some negative.
00:46:27 ►
There were, you know,
00:46:31 ►
I could go on for quite a long time about all the different things, but basically a lot of good research came out of it.
00:46:36 ►
And we did show that people could live in a closed system.
00:46:41 ►
If you look at it at all, you may hear comments about, oh, well, they injected oxygen.
00:46:47 ►
Well, so, you know, the media, first the media raised it up, and then they put it down,
00:46:54 ►
because that’s how you sell more media. So what happened was that the oxygen became sequestered in the cement.
00:47:09 ►
And it weakened, actually, the cement,
00:47:13 ►
which is something useful to know when you’re building bridges and the like.
00:47:18 ►
But nobody knew in advance that that was going to happen because of the high CO2 levels.
00:47:20 ►
So the oxygen became sequestered, and then it wasn’t available for breathing.
00:47:26 ►
So eventually we did have to inject some oxygen, but we knew how much we were injecting.
00:47:32 ►
And the biosphere was about a hundred times more sealed than the space station.
00:47:40 ►
So we really understood what was going on inside. We knew, you know, our partial pressures of gas,
00:47:48 ►
you know, how many moles we had of every different gaseous compound in there.
00:47:56 ►
So it was all known.
00:47:58 ►
It was what you could call a critical experiment,
00:48:01 ►
but in any experiment you’re interested in what you’re going to learn.
00:48:13 ►
So we did learn quite a bit and i believe that the the project was a tremendous success then other things happened there was a film that just recently was released and it’s available
00:48:22 ►
on itunes i know there may be other places you can see it but it is
00:48:28 ►
available on itunes and again i’ll put the name in here uh the film itself has a tremendous amount
00:48:34 ►
of my footage in it both from the projects leading up to the biosphere and to the biosphere itself plus a lot of the footage which really made the film possible
00:48:49 ►
from Dr. Roy Walford who’s now deceased but was one of the biospherians he was the medical doctor
00:48:57 ►
inside and he shot a tremendous amount of video footage of life inside. And that really gave them the thread to put the film together.
00:49:09 ►
Here is the name.
00:49:11 ►
It’s very simple.
00:49:13 ►
Spaceship Earth.
00:49:14 ►
And it’s available on iTunes.
00:49:19 ►
And I’ll put all these links in the program notes when I podcast this.
00:49:24 ►
And I’ll put all these links in the program notes when I podcast this.
00:49:30 ►
And also, Rio, I want to put in links to your work, too.
00:49:36 ►
What all do you want to – how do we find more about you?
00:49:41 ►
Well, good question.
00:50:01 ►
Of course, you can go to my website if you Google me, Rio Hahn. I’ll put that here. You find a lot of stuff. I put my website in earlier, but that doesn’t have so much on it. It has been updated in quite a while.
00:50:07 ►
But that will give you some, and maybe you and i can you know go over that off yeah we’ll go over some stuff and and i i didn’t uh i put your plan k
00:50:13 ►
narte talk from this past uh last august uh a year ago up on the patreon site because i couldn’t
00:50:19 ►
clean it up it was uh they had a bad cord for the mic and uh there’s so much static it’s very hard to listen
00:50:25 ►
to i put it there and and there’s been about 100 or so people listen to it so uh you at least have
00:50:30 ►
a little bigger audience than you had on the playa uh i appreciate your time doing that so uh
00:50:37 ►
well we’re about at the end of an hour here which is about as long as i like to hold people because
00:50:44 ►
everybody has things
00:50:45 ►
going on.
00:50:45 ►
And there are several people here who are at work right now.
00:50:48 ►
I happen to know,
00:50:48 ►
and I don’t want them to get busted.
00:50:52 ►
what,
00:50:52 ►
what,
00:50:53 ►
uh,
00:50:53 ►
would you like to,
00:50:54 ►
uh,
00:50:55 ►
what,
00:50:55 ►
what haven’t we asked you that you’d like to,
00:50:57 ►
uh,
00:50:57 ►
maybe talk about?
00:50:59 ►
Hmm.
00:51:00 ►
Well,
00:51:01 ►
uh,
00:51:01 ►
I guess the,
00:51:02 ►
the new thing I’m working on is a book,
00:51:04 ►
uh, titled sailing the new thing I’m working on is a book titled Sailing the Psychedelic Seas.
00:51:08 ►
And so I’ll just say a word about that in closing.
00:51:12 ►
And that’s being a sailor, sea captain, I use that analogy.
00:51:19 ►
And I think there is a lot of, you know, value to that analogy.
00:51:24 ►
I mean, people call it trips they call it journeys
00:51:27 ►
and sailing so that idea really struck me as being a good way to develop that and where that started
00:51:35 ►
was at the conference in berlin oh the altered conference in 2017 and i did a led a panel at the end of the conference
00:51:48 ►
called sailing the psychedelic seas and we had a number of psychonauts there on the stage
00:51:55 ►
and invited after we introduced ourselves we invited the audience to ask questions
00:52:02 ►
and that’s how the whole panel went. And I did the same thing
00:52:06 ►
now at Burning Man. And so that led me to the idea of putting together a book that would have a lot
00:52:16 ►
of experiential information in it and to share experience and knowledge, but mainly from the experience side.
00:52:26 ►
Because, you know, there are many, many great books available
00:52:30 ►
that go into a lot of detail.
00:52:32 ►
You get deeply into the science and the chemistry and everything.
00:52:38 ►
But I don’t think there is kind of a book that focuses
00:52:42 ►
on the experiential side necessarily.
00:52:47 ►
And taking it from that perspective.
00:52:49 ►
The other aspect of that is a different talk that I’ve done, which is called The Importance of Set, or Mindset more properly,
00:53:05 ►
but it was always called Set, in Altered States Exploration.
00:53:10 ►
And I kind of came upon this after hearing stories of people
00:53:17 ►
who more and more today seem to be running into problems
00:53:21 ►
when they take substances.
00:53:23 ►
They don’t have the background that we had in the early days somehow you know some
00:53:31 ►
of the basic texts like that Leary and Alpert did the either the dead yeah look
00:53:43 ►
at the dead yeah but it was based on that it’s called the
00:53:46 ►
psychedelic experience that’s it right and you know there’s some very i’m not going to talk
00:53:52 ►
about the whole book but at the beginning there’s some very basic good solid beginning information
00:53:58 ►
in there and things that you can actually work with when you’re on a journey. But the big thing that struck me, and this was more from personal experience and the
00:54:10 ►
personal experience of working with a lot of people over the years and something else
00:54:15 ►
we could talk about at another time, is that we all approach the field and the subject
00:54:23 ►
as explorers.
00:54:25 ►
Now, I am an explorer.
00:54:26 ►
I’m in a fellow,
00:54:27 ►
the Royal geographical society,
00:54:29 ►
a fellow of the explorers club.
00:54:32 ►
But that mindset of the explorer seemed to me to be a very valuable mindset to
00:54:41 ►
take on.
00:54:42 ►
If you don’t have it already to take it on.
00:54:48 ►
mindset to take on if you don’t have it already to take it on and my hope is that that would keep a lot of people out of trouble who say have been taken advantage of by uh unscrupulous shaman
00:54:56 ►
and this happens a lot now evidently i mean there’s even a network, a couple of women at the Girona Conference from the Kitos have developed a network there where you can find out who are safe shaman to go and work with.
00:55:15 ►
I mean, the exploitation that occurs a great deal today.
00:55:20 ►
So this book will kind of address that.
00:55:24 ►
And that’s where my concept came out of.
00:55:27 ►
And then melding that with the questions that we did at the Berlin and then now we’re doing it Burning Man.
00:55:38 ►
So that’s something that’s coming in the future.
00:55:41 ►
Well, I tell you what, I’m really fascinated about the book. I
00:55:45 ►
can’t wait to read it myself, and you can’t wait to finish it, I’m sure. What I’d like to offer
00:55:51 ►
is if you want to come back here anytime, like even next Thursday. Okay, that sounds great.
00:55:59 ►
I’ll check in with you. We’ll see what’s happening next Thursday, and if that doesn’t work,
00:56:04 ►
we’ll plan it for
00:56:05 ►
another one. It sounds great. And you and I will get together offline. I’ve got a couple other
00:56:10 ►
things I want to talk to you about and also we’ll hook up there. But I think that’d be great. And
00:56:14 ►
I’m sure that by next week or whenever you come, they will come back, that people will have even
00:56:20 ►
more questions because we’ve put a lot of things out here. I’ll put this out in the podcast and we’ll see if we can troll for a few more
00:56:27 ►
questions. But I think that could be a fascinating conversation.
00:56:30 ►
That’s kind of a directed conversation and maybe it’ll provide a little
00:56:35 ►
insight for your book. Who knows?
00:56:37 ►
Oh, great. And thank you, Lorenzo.
00:56:40 ►
It’s so good to hook up again after so long.
00:56:43 ►
Yeah.
00:56:49 ►
We can’t say I’ll get together next week now because we’re all stuck,
00:56:52 ►
but we will see one another in person again.
00:56:52 ►
I know that.
00:56:54 ►
I know that too.
00:56:59 ►
And I really appreciate your time being here and everybody else’s time too.
00:57:00 ►
Thank you all very much.
00:57:04 ►
And until next week, y’all, keep the old faith and stay high take care of day station
00:57:07 ►
you’re listening to the psychedelic salon where people are changing their lives one thought at a
00:57:13 ►
time and for now this is lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space nam, my friends.