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618 - Rick Strassman’s Groundbreaking Research

Aug 12, 2019, 52 min read

Program Notes

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Guest speaker: Rick Strassman

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Levy-Escapes-Death-Strassman/dp/1587904721Joseph Levy Escapes Death

Date this lecture was recorded: August 5, 2019.
Today’s podcast features a conversation with Dr. Rick Strassman, author of DMT The Spirit Molecule that took place last Monday evening in the Live Salon. During this wide-ranging interview Dr. Strassman discussed DMT, psilocybin, Gary Fisher, science, medicine, psychedelic research, mysticism, and the Bible.

Joseph Levy Escapes Death by Rick Strassman
Rick Strassman MD, author of DMT: The Spirit Molecule
Interviewed by Graham Hancock

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Transcript

00:00:00 ►

Greetings from cyberdelic space, this is Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic

00:00:22 ►

Salon.

00:00:23 ►

And today I’m going to play a recording of last Monday’s live salon,

00:00:28 ►

whose featured guest was Dr. Rick Strassman,

00:00:31 ►

who’s a psychedelic researcher and the author of DMT, the Spirit Molecule,

00:00:37 ►

and several other books as well.

00:00:39 ►

Now, one of the things that I hope you pick up on when you listen to this recording

00:00:43 ►

is that these live salons are very informal.

00:00:47 ►

Sometimes there are interruptions, jokes, and off-track tangents.

00:00:51 ►

And that’s how salons are supposed to be, at least in my humble opinion.

00:00:56 ►

In fact, in my novel, The Genesis Generation, which you can download for free, by the way,

00:01:02 ►

which you can download for free, by the way,

00:01:05 ►

there’s a chapter titled Caitlin’s Salon,

00:01:09 ►

and it’s based on the salon that Kathleen Wirt hosted in Venice Beach for many years here in Southern California.

00:01:12 ►

And I hope that over the next decade or so,

00:01:15 ►

these live sessions of the Psychedelic Salon

00:01:18 ►

will become as meaningful for you and our fellow salonners

00:01:21 ►

as Kathleen’s Salon was for me.

00:01:24 ►

So now please join me in another live session of the Psychedelic Salon.

00:01:31 ►

Rick, I really appreciate you spending some time to join us here tonight.

00:01:35 ►

Rick, you may, you know, I realize you’ve been kind of taking a backseat in the mainstream of the psychedelic thoroughfare here lately,

00:01:48 ►

but you’re one of the big heroes of the psychedelic community,

00:01:52 ►

and we’re all really honored to have you here.

00:01:55 ►

I appreciate you taking the time to be here.

00:01:58 ►

Well, yeah, so it is true. I have been kind of residing on the sidelines of the upsurge of psychedelic research.

00:02:12 ►

But that’s okay. I spent so much time in front and so far ahead in front that I’m glad to not be, you know, taking those arrows anymore.

00:02:27 ►

Yeah, you know, it was such a dearth of research for so many years until you made the breakthrough.

00:02:34 ►

And so, of course, you know, you would become the main poster boy and target for people.

00:02:41 ►

And I don’t know if you know it, but when Charlie Grove started his psilocybin end of life research for the

00:02:49 ►

beginning of that research, my, my wife was his research assistant.

00:02:53 ►

So I really got to hear a lot about the early days of research.

00:02:57 ►

And by the way, I talked to Charlie just last week.

00:02:59 ►

He said to say hi to you when I talked to you tonight.

00:03:02 ►

Oh, well, great. Yeah., next time you talk to Charlie,

00:03:07 ►

if there’s an opportunity, you know, tell him hello too. It’s been a while since I’ve seen him.

00:03:13 ►

I will, I will. He and I actually, because of my wife’s involvement in this study,

00:03:18 ►

we’ve all become friends, and so we talk pretty regularly and all, and Charlie actually helped me

00:03:23 ►

with some of my interviews with Gary Fisher back when Gary was still alive.

00:03:28 ►

So we’ve had a long relationship and I’ll be sure to pass your pillow on to him.

00:03:34 ►

So before before I know that the people here and everybody has a lot of questions about a lot of your DMT, the spirit molecule and all.

00:03:45 ►

But I want to begin tonight talking about your new book, which I just finished reading,

00:03:54 ►

Joseph Levy Escapes Death.

00:03:56 ►

And I don’t want to give any spoiler alerts or anything, but I have a question that it

00:04:02 ►

didn’t dawn on me until I read your book.

00:04:05 ►

But you must have been in your mid-60s when you started writing this novel.

00:04:10 ►

I was in my mid-60s when I started writing a novel.

00:04:14 ►

But lately, I’ve been working with Leonard Picard, who, of course, you know, is in prison and wrote The Rose of Paracletus.

00:04:23 ►

But he started that in his mid-60s.

00:04:26 ►

So what my question is, what’s up with us old psychedelic guys that start writing novels for the first time when we’re in our 60s?

00:04:33 ►

How did that come about?

00:04:36 ►

Well, I think we started wanting, you know, to tell our stories, you know, for, I guess, the future. Like, you know, for myself, I’ve always kept my

00:04:49 ►

personal cards pretty close to my chest. But that story in Joseph Levy Escapes Death is an account

00:04:57 ►

of a year of being quite sick and recuperating out here in the middle of nowhere in Gallup, New Mexico.

00:05:06 ►

And, yeah, I was thinking, well, I have all these great experiences,

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which I really have not talked about that much.

00:05:16 ►

And in my case, you know, not being dependent on any outside grants or permits or university affiliations,

00:05:30 ►

I’m relatively free to speak my mind and tell stories that may have raised some eyebrows

00:05:41 ►

if I were still in the ivory tower academia, you know, doing research with

00:05:47 ►

scheduled drugs. A couple of months ago, I spoke with, well, a couple of months ago, I was in

00:05:58 ►

Sedona with Graham Hancock. And we had a conversation on stage. And, you know, that was the first,

00:06:10 ►

you know, time that I actually had spoken about my first experience with smoking DMT with Terrence

00:06:17 ►

McKenna. I had told, you know, a small number of people in previously, but it was the first time that I had talked about that in a public venue.

00:06:31 ►

And I think it boils down to as you get older, you have that much less to lose.

00:06:39 ►

You just don’t care as much as you did before what people might think about things that you’ve done or you’ve said or you’ve thought.

00:06:48 ►

You know, I totally agree with you.

00:06:51 ►

And also, like you just said, it helps us kind of, it’s a time when we want to get our story out.

00:06:58 ►

And you dropped a few nice little kernels along the way.

00:07:03 ►

You dropped a few nice little kernels along the way.

00:07:12 ►

For example, one of the things that made me smile that your younger readers would never pick up on is your mention of the Hardy Boys books.

00:07:14 ►

You obviously read the Hardy Boys series.

00:07:17 ►

Well, my brother did.

00:07:19 ►

You know, my older brother.

00:07:24 ►

You know, the Hardy Boys were slightly a bit too old for me, but my brother collected them.

00:07:26 ►

And, yeah, you know, one of the stories in that book is me dreaming about auctioning off those books.

00:07:34 ►

You know, that’s fascinating because, you know, you’re a little younger than my younger brother would be if he was still alive.

00:07:40 ►

And so I was the one that read the Hardy Boys books, and he heard about them from me.

00:07:46 ►

So I guess indirectly we have that in common, Rick.

00:07:51 ►

Yes, an older brother,

00:07:52 ►

or you can be my older brother that used to read the Hardy Boys books.

00:07:58 ►

I read the Hardy Boys books, but I also read Tom Swift Jr.,

00:08:03 ►

which is very fondly remembered by cartoonists my age.

00:08:08 ►

But I don’t know.

00:08:10 ►

Rick doesn’t have – Rick, can you see in video who is talking?

00:08:15 ►

Can you see who’s here?

00:08:16 ►

Yeah, that’s Larry Marder.

00:08:19 ►

Yeah, Larry is a famous cartoonist that does Mean World,

00:08:24 ►

so he’s been around a long time.

00:08:26 ►

And, Larry, for what it’s worth, I read the Tom Swift Jr. books myself,

00:08:30 ►

and I also had a part-time job at our grade school cleaning out the library attic,

00:08:37 ►

and I found the Tom Swift Sr. books.

00:08:40 ►

And if you haven’t read those yet, you need to go out and look.

00:08:43 ►

So, Rick, we’ve kind of gotten off track with me

00:08:46 ►

asking you about the hardy boys what direction would you like to go in now well you know speaking

00:08:53 ►

of things kids used to read i mean when i was growing up and did a lot of reading like that

00:08:59 ►

well as a small kid i read the books about uh mr bass and the Mushroom Planet. It’s a very, you know, trippy,

00:09:08 ►

you know, like an alien guy with a big head. And he, you know, lived on this, you know,

00:09:12 ►

mushroom planet. And it’s a really weird place. You know, so I’m, you know, wondering if those,

00:09:19 ►

you know, books may have influenced me starting at, you know, six years old or so.

00:09:24 ►

You know, when I was older, I read all the James Bond books.

00:09:28 ►

So that might have contributed to some swashbuckling.

00:09:34 ►

But I’d say, oh, you know, one of the things I was interested in commenting on,

00:09:43 ►

you had spoken about, you know, Gary Fisher.

00:09:46 ►

And, you know, Gary, you know, gave the largest, you know, dose of oral psilocybin in recorded

00:09:52 ►

history, 120 milligrams. And if you compare that with the high, you know, doses that are being,

00:10:00 ►

you know, given, you know, nowadays, let’s see, see you know 0.4 milligrams per kilogram yeah you know

00:10:08 ►

you know 30 milligrams you know 40 milligrams is you know considered a high dose now and when Gary

00:10:16 ►

was doing human research he gave 120 milligrams you know he didn’t really discuss that trip that much,

00:10:27 ►

but I still used his publication as a reason or as a support

00:10:34 ►

for some of the dose-finding work with psilocybin that we did in New Mexico

00:10:42 ►

before I wrapped up my study.

00:10:51 ►

We gave 1.1 milligrams per kilogram of pure oral psilocybin.

00:11:01 ►

And in an average weight person, that would be, let’s see, 1.1 times 75.

00:11:08 ►

It would be like 80, 90 milligrams of oral psilocybin, which is still maybe three times what’s considered a high dose now. Yeah, Gary really broke a lot of ground, and it’s a shame

00:11:16 ►

his work kind of got pushed to the background, because he was really on the leading edge,

00:11:22 ►

although, of course, he pushed the edge.

00:11:27 ►

But there was no edge at the time.

00:11:29 ►

There were no IRBs or anything like that when he was doing his work.

00:11:34 ►

Yeah.

00:11:35 ►

And with the studies that I was doing in Albuquerque, I had pretty much free reign once we established a track record of safety.

00:11:48 ►

We could increase the dose.

00:11:51 ►

We could give it in different ways.

00:11:55 ►

We were able to combine DMT with other drugs.

00:12:00 ►

And it was also helpful with respect to the DEA.

00:12:03 ►

And it was also helpful with respect to the DEA.

00:12:27 ►

It took a long time to work out a system where the DEA would allow us to possess in psilocybin for our study,

00:12:30 ►

which only took maybe three months. And then after that, we obtained an import permit to bring in LSD from Switzerland.

00:12:37 ►

And obtaining that permit only took about a month.

00:12:41 ►

It only took about a month. So we were able to do things, give doses that were pretty much up to our discretion.

00:12:56 ►

And so you weren’t as bound by a protocol then, right?

00:13:04 ►

Well, our study is all required, you know, protocols, you know, reviewed, you know, by, you know, local, state, you know,

00:13:09 ►

federal scientific advisors, you know, plus the DEA.

00:13:13 ►

You know, but the content of those protocols, if we were able, you know,

00:13:18 ►

to justify our requests for, you know, this or that, you know,

00:13:23 ►

they were, you know were pretty lenient.

00:13:26 ►

Well, let’s rewind just a bit, Rick.

00:13:29 ►

We have a lot of people that’ll be hearing this podcast are high school,

00:13:34 ►

college age, 30 and under, trying to get their careers in line.

00:13:39 ►

And just kind of take us through from being a six-year-old reading really fascinating comic books to getting the idea for your study and then having the courage to go through and, I assume, kind of push a wet noodle uphill against your colleagues.

00:13:56 ►

How did all this come about?

00:13:57 ►

How did you evolve into breaking the logjam of psychedelic studies in the United States?

00:14:03 ►

breaking the logjam of psychedelic studies in the United States?

00:14:11 ►

Well, I think it started off with my interest in fireworks.

00:14:20 ►

When I was a high school student, I used to get chemicals from the drugstore down the block and make gunpowder and bombs and fireworks.

00:14:24 ►

and make gunpowder and bombs and fireworks.

00:14:28 ►

And I started college actually as a chemistry major,

00:14:32 ►

thinking I would become a fireworks magnate of some sort.

00:14:36 ►

But I was discouraged and they said, well, you’re a smart guy.

00:14:37 ►

You should go to medical school.

00:14:50 ►

But still, my fascination with things that were bright and colorful and exciting began even in my teen years.

00:14:58 ►

And when I was in college, I heard about the effects of psychedelics, which were colorful and exciting.

00:15:05 ►

And also meditation was coming into California at that time. And some of the descriptions of the state seemed quite similar.

00:15:10 ►

And I thought perhaps there was some common biological denominator that was mediating the effects of psychedelics and of meditation.

00:15:23 ►

So I started to think about the biological bases of spiritual experience.

00:15:30 ►

I started off looking at the pineal gland, which has a long, you know,

00:15:35 ►

venerated history in esoteric and physiologies.

00:15:41 ►

You know, but, and, you know, this was in the early 1980s,

00:15:44 ►

and there wasn’t that much, you that much known about melatonin.

00:15:48 ►

So we mostly discovered it was primarily sedating. So by then, I had learned about DMT,

00:15:58 ►

changed career paths, so to speak. But I also through the melatonin work had established myself as

00:16:08 ►

an independent clinical researcher.

00:16:13 ►

So the DMT

00:16:16 ►

study was designed to be as simple

00:16:20 ►

as possible. So we

00:16:24 ►

studied normal volunteers without any therapeutic agenda or spiritual

00:16:33 ►

agenda. We were only going to measure things without actually intruding on people. You know, so, you know, we drew blood.

00:16:47 ►

We looked at heart rate and blood pressure.

00:16:51 ►

We, you know, developed a new questionnaire to quantify the subjective effects.

00:16:57 ►

And I also spent, you know, much time interviewing, you know, people,

00:17:03 ►

you know, just to hear their descriptions of what was going on in there.

00:17:06 ►

So it was a dose-response psychopharmacology study, pretty non-threatening in a lot of ways,

00:17:15 ►

and it possessed a lot of good science, which the government and academia were interested in applying to the psychedelic state

00:17:28 ►

because it had been so long that human studies were in hibernation.

00:17:35 ►

So we kept our goals quite modest, stayed out of the media, didn’t do any interviews.

00:17:44 ►

Albuquerque is, well, especially back then, it was off the beaten track.

00:17:49 ►

You know, so we weren’t going to be getting a lot of attention.

00:17:53 ►

Yeah, and it was just a step-by-step, you know, process interacting with, you know, all the panels and the councils and the boards and whatnot.

00:18:03 ►

You know, first at the university, you know, first at the university,

00:18:06 ►

you know, then at the state level, you know, then the federal level, FDA and the DEA.

00:18:12 ►

And what about your colleagues at the time?

00:18:15 ►

Did they think you were crazy or what?

00:18:19 ►

Oh, man.

00:18:21 ►

You know, within the psychopharmacology community community it was kind of a big shrug you know we’ve we’ve

00:18:30 ►

you know we’ve been there done that uh you know these old timers you know who uh you know cut

00:18:36 ►

their teeth on your psychedelic research in the 60s you know so um um you know, when I was standing in front of one of my posters at a meeting, you know, one of those old timers came up to me and said, it’s deja vu all over again.

00:18:55 ►

And but still, you know, I was the only guy in a huge auditorium that was standing in front of a poster describing the effects of DMT.

00:19:05 ►

You know, everybody else was, you know, looking at depression and schizophrenia and, you know,

00:19:10 ►

the latest antidepressant or antipsychotic medication.

00:19:21 ►

You know, so it was a shrug. It was some bemusement, kind of like a lone voice in the wilderness. And what’s the point? Aren’t these drugs useless and dangerous and those kinds of beliefs.

00:19:46 ►

So in a way, it was positive that people mostly left me alone.

00:19:54 ►

But at the same time, one of the fatal flaws of my study was that I didn’t really have colleagues to work with

00:20:02 ►

because nobody else was, you know,

00:20:06 ►

doing this kind of work in the U.S. You know, nobody in my department was familiar with what

00:20:14 ►

I was doing. You know, they just wanted me to, you know, get grants and write papers and

00:20:19 ►

stay out of trouble. But, you know, being able able to actually be you know colleagues uh in the

00:20:27 ►

trenches and you know afterwards you know processing you know people’s trips uh you know

00:20:34 ►

that would have been uh really quite helpful and and if unless i’m mistaken yours was the first uh

00:20:41 ►

federally approved uh psychedelic research after the the dearth of the 60s, right?

00:20:50 ►

Yeah.

00:20:50 ►

Yeah.

00:20:51 ►

We began the paperwork in around 1988, and we gave our first dose of DMT in November 1990.

00:21:09 ►

You know, it’s interesting.

00:21:12 ►

And it isn’t purely sour grapes.

00:21:16 ►

But if you look at the current interest in these drugs, it’s as if our study never happened.

00:21:24 ►

It’s a very strange thing.

00:21:27 ►

If you read, you know, Bill Richard’s book, you know, Sacred Knowledge,

00:21:31 ►

and you read the forward, you know, the guy that wrote the forward,

00:21:36 ►

you know, claims that the Hopkins studies were the first new studies,

00:21:40 ►

you know, since, you know, 1970.

00:21:43 ►

Our study, you know, was before that. You know, there was, you know, one study was before that.

00:21:45 ►

There was one in Tucson before that,

00:21:48 ►

in Florida before that.

00:21:51 ►

And if you read Michael Pollan’s book,

00:21:53 ►

there’s one mention of our work,

00:21:56 ►

just one single mention, almost as a footnote.

00:21:59 ►

And there aren’t any references to the DMT book,

00:22:03 ►

to any of our scientific papers.

00:22:08 ►

So first, well, there’s a few reasons for that revisionism, which is kind of what I would call it.

00:22:20 ►

One is just purely self-serving.

00:22:24 ►

Like, oh, i was there first

00:22:26 ►

i’m the coolest guy you know but uh it also i think uh you know relates you know to dmt

00:22:32 ►

you know dmt is not another prozac and uh you know lots of the you know medicalization of psychedelics is being contextualized as one more tool in the pharmacopeia for what ails you.

00:22:58 ►

So DMT isn’t that way.

00:23:00 ►

I mean, DMT is very strange, and that’s the hallmark of it.

00:23:04 ►

It isn’t something that you’re depressed and is very strange and you know that’s the hallmark of it it isn’t you know

00:23:05 ►

something you know that you’re depressed and you take and then you’re happy you know this like

00:23:09 ►

blows your mind um and uh it’s also endogenous it’s made in the human body uh and i think you

00:23:18 ►

know those two qualities or those two you know properties i’m a dmt you know two, you know, properties of DMT, you know, makes it, you know, not quite as,

00:23:28 ►

you know, not quite as, you know, like amenable to, you know, being, you know, massaged by the

00:23:36 ►

media. You know, so it’s about, you know, end of life care. It’s about depression. It’s about end-of-life care. It’s about depression. It’s about creativity.

00:23:55 ►

But it isn’t about encountering these strange beings in a discarnate world of light.

00:24:01 ►

That’s a bit of a larger bite to take.

00:24:06 ►

You know, Rick, I’ve got a whole bunch of things that you’ve raised a bunch of questions but before i forget this one uh you you uh you you got me thinking when you said you

00:24:13 ►

you as a young child your first interest was in fireworks uh in in some of his talks here

00:24:19 ►

terence mckenna has said his first uh interest that led to psychedelics were in the, I don’t know the exact biological term, but in the, you know,

00:24:29 ►

the beautiful butterfly wings and the seafood wings of various insects.

00:24:34 ►

Again, it was the fireworks.

00:24:36 ►

And of course, when I talk about going into the mushroom state or ayahuasca

00:24:42 ►

or whatever the beginning part part I always describe as fireworks

00:24:45 ►

so you’re on on target with many of us there the other thing I want to mention is that here in the

00:24:51 ►

salon everybody is really aware of your pioneering work in fact on on more than one occasion yeah

00:25:00 ►

there’s there’s a one of your books right there. And on more than one occasion, Charlie Grove has mentioned that you were the one that broke the log jam and everything. He said he couldn’t have gotten his protocols passed without the pioneering work that you did.

00:25:25 ►

Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, to me, a more scary idea is the guy that ate the first mushroom.

00:25:27 ►

So bravo to you, Rick.

00:25:31 ►

You really, really stepped out there and did a lot for all of us.

00:25:32 ►

Well, thanks.

00:25:55 ►

Yeah, well, you know, I don’t take it all that personally. is it refers to what it is saying about the current state of interest in the psychedelics,

00:25:58 ►

especially from the research community.

00:26:02 ►

There’s a normalization, which is important. I mean, there wouldn’t be anywhere near the kind of

00:26:06 ►

increase in good clinical studies, you know, without, you know, normalizing, you know,

00:26:11 ►

but you don’t want to strip, you know, psychedelics of their, of their strangeness of their,

00:26:18 ►

you know, making you look at things in a way that you really weren’t sure of before, but you had an inkling about.

00:26:29 ►

Well, that’s not putting it as well as I’d like. Psychedelics are strange. They make you feel

00:26:37 ►

strange. They change the way you look at the world and what might be seen as a strange way.

00:26:46 ►

You know, so, you know, there aren’t, you know, they aren’t only medicines.

00:26:51 ►

I think they’re, you know, tools which can be used medicinally,

00:26:56 ►

but they can be used for a lot more.

00:26:59 ►

You know, Rick, that’s a perfect example of what Bruce Dahmer said just last week,

00:27:04 ►

where he said he prefers not to call them medicines because that sort of implies an illness.

00:27:10 ►

He calls them elixirs.

00:27:13 ►

Well, you could.

00:27:16 ►

Yeah.

00:27:16 ►

Yeah.

00:27:16 ►

Well, you know, what you call these drugs is, you know, quite interesting.

00:27:24 ►

You know, psychedelic is still my favorite.

00:27:26 ►

You know, hallucinogen is a little strange because it, you know, doesn’t really,

00:27:31 ►

you know, cover, you know, much of what’s going on. And, you know, the more pejorative

00:27:38 ►

expressions, you know, for example, you know, things like schizotoxins or, you know, psychotomimetics,

00:27:48 ►

you know, obviously you’re not going to want to take one of those, you know, but, you know,

00:27:53 ►

the more, you know, flowery terms, I think also, you know, limit what the drugs do, you know,

00:28:01 ►

like entheogen, you know, what if you’re, you know, what if you’re an atheist, you know, like entheogen. You know, what if you’re an atheist?

00:28:05 ►

You know, should you take an entheogen?

00:28:08 ►

And it kind of places an expectation as well

00:28:13 ►

on what kind of experience you’re going to have.

00:28:17 ►

You know, so if you don’t see God or have a mystical experience,

00:28:20 ►

you may feel that you failed somehow in your encounter with an entheogenic drug.

00:28:34 ►

And, you know, mystical, mimetic, it’s the same kind of thing.

00:28:39 ►

You know, Stan Grof likes to describe psychedelics as nonspecific mental amplifiers.

00:28:44 ►

Groff likes to describe psychedelics as nonspecific mental amplifiers.

00:28:51 ►

They just are disclosing what’s there either more or less consciously.

00:29:02 ►

With regard to Stan’s comment about psychedelics being nonspecific mental amplifiers, you know, that’s one of the ideas that’s been stimulating

00:29:07 ►

my thinking about the psychedelics as, you know, super placebos. You know, if you read the

00:29:15 ►

literature, you know, psychedelics improve depression. They help with end-of-life care.

00:29:30 ►

of life care. They are helpful for OCD, alcoholism, substance abuse, eating disorders, you know, prisoner, you know, prison or recidivism, you know, nature, appreciation,

00:29:37 ►

openness, you know, so how can one, you know, drug exert, you drug exert such incredibly widespread effects?

00:29:47 ►

And the expression for a substance like that is a panacea.

00:29:54 ►

It heals everything.

00:29:56 ►

So if you look at the psychedelics in a way as a panacea,

00:30:01 ►

because they are proving to be useful in this incredible

00:30:06 ►

variety of conditions. You know, how does panacea work? And I think it works through

00:30:12 ►

the recruitment of the body’s own innate healing mechanisms, you know, which is, you know, the way

00:30:20 ►

that placebo works. It stimulates immune function, endocrine function. You know, so if

00:30:28 ►

you, you know, look at, you know, psychedelics as in that way, like, you know, to consider them as,

00:30:38 ►

you know, super placebos, I think it would go a long way to understanding their incredible range of effects.

00:30:48 ►

You know, but I think also that they may, you know, turn out to be incredibly useful tools, you know, for understanding the placebo effect, which can be turned to all kinds of conditions.

00:31:08 ►

Like if you’ve got cancer, you’re getting chemotherapy,

00:31:19 ►

you want to apply as much placebo power as you can to help with tolerating side effects and to increase the, and, you know, to in, in, well, you know, to, you know,

00:31:30 ►

make the outcome, you know, turn out better.

00:31:33 ►

So if, you know, for example, you gave a small amount of LSD to, you know, somebody getting,

00:31:40 ►

you know, cancer chemotherapy, you know, and obviously in a supportive, you know, psychotherapeutic

00:31:46 ►

environment, you know, would, you know, would their outcomes, you know, be better, you know,

00:31:50 ►

than if they weren’t, you know, primed to improve or to increase their placebo response.

00:31:59 ►

Yeah, and circling back to how you began talking about this is the use of the word psychedelic.

00:32:07 ►

And I totally agree with you, Rick.

00:32:09 ►

I looked at calling this program a lot of things.

00:32:12 ►

You know, it’s been 15 years ago I started it.

00:32:15 ►

And back then, you know, the word psychedelic was a little more toxic than it is today.

00:32:19 ►

But I totally agree with you.

00:32:21 ►

There’s really no better word than Humphrey Osmond came up with in Mind Manifesting Psychedelic.

00:32:28 ►

So I totally agree with you.

00:32:31 ►

Rick, I want to let you know that I invited him.

00:32:35 ►

And he is here with us from Okinawa.

00:32:38 ►

Andrew Gallimore is here.

00:32:41 ►

And also, I invited Danny McQueen.

00:32:48 ►

is here. And also, I invited Danny McQueen. He sends his apologies and says that his wife is doing a presentation tonight, and he’s babysitting the girls. So he gives his apologies for not being

00:32:54 ►

here tonight. But Andrew, can we unmute your mic? Do you want to say hello? I unmuted you and you didn’t. Here we go. Hi, Rick.

00:33:06 ►

How are you doing?

00:33:09 ►

I’m good.

00:33:10 ►

Let me switch on the video for a minute or two so you can see it’s me.

00:33:14 ►

There we are.

00:33:15 ►

How’s it going?

00:33:17 ►

I’m not sure if everybody knows, but whilst me and Rick have worked together

00:33:21 ►

and have extensive contact over the last few years,

00:33:24 ►

we’ve never actually physically met yet.

00:33:29 ►

Hopefully in the not too distant future, we’ll be able to work it out.

00:33:33 ►

One day.

00:33:34 ►

One day, yeah.

00:33:35 ►

And Rick, I want to introduce one other man here to you is Kevin Thorbane.

00:33:40 ►

And Kevin is right, as you see him right now is driving down central Ohio he joins us every

00:33:46 ►

Monday night from the road but Kevin is one that introduced us to Andrew and we’ve done a podcast

00:33:51 ►

with Andrew and with Danny McQueen and so the whole thing circles back to you and that’s where

00:33:58 ►

it all started with well I mean I was you know like at a certain weigh station at that time, but yeah, I mean, I stand in line with a lot of other people, including Andrew.

00:34:14 ►

Andrew is a few years younger than I am and will carry the torch.

00:34:21 ►

Hi, Rick. Just wanted to introduce myself. To put a face to the name, I’m the one that actually sent you the DMTX patch in the mail a few months back.

00:34:31 ►

Oh, okay.

00:34:34 ►

Well, so the patch isn’t quite within arm’s reach, but I have a DMT necklace, which has a common…

00:34:45 ►

Yeah, so… A whole different kind of Cub Scout. necklace, which has a common name. Yeah.

00:34:46 ►

So.

00:34:47 ►

Whole different kind of Cub Scout.

00:34:50 ►

So, Rick, this is an impertinent question because I really don’t know you.

00:34:56 ►

I was close friends with Myron Soleroff, and I’m a good friend of Charlie.

00:35:01 ►

And, of course, you know, Myron started a lot of this psychedelic research back in the 50s. And then after you broke the ice, Charlie has picked up and he’s done an awful lot

00:35:11 ►

of psychedelic research. And then there’s you. And I’m trying to say this as politically correct

00:35:17 ►

as I can, but I find it fascinating that all three of you are of Jewish descent. Do you think there’s any connection to Jewish scientists and

00:35:25 ►

psychedelics? Well, I think so. You know, that is a, you know, hot button or, you know,

00:35:34 ►

hot button kind of topic. The, you know, the Jews and, you know, the psychedelic state.

00:35:43 ►

You know, but it is true. You know, the Jews are, you know, the psychedelic state. You know, but it is true.

00:35:49 ►

You know, the Jews are interested in those kinds of things.

00:35:52 ►

You know, Freud was interested in working with the unconscious.

00:35:58 ►

You know, one of the main Canadian scientists, you know, doing LSD work in the 1950s and the 1960s was a guy named Abram Hoffer.

00:36:09 ►

Sure, oh yeah, he was very popular.

00:36:12 ►

Yeah, you know, so I think it’s just the Jewish edginess,

00:36:18 ►

kind of exploring things that might be taboo or might be too complicated

00:36:24 ►

for most people most of the time.

00:36:28 ►

But then you start to get into lots of politically complicated things.

00:36:35 ►

But speaking of that, I mean, in my book that came out in 2014 called DMT and the Soul of Prophecy.

00:36:45 ►

I take the DMT story into the world of the Hebrew Bible and the prophetic experience,

00:36:52 ►

which for a number of readers was a hard nut to crack because of all of the negative associations that most people experience

00:37:08 ►

when they think about that text, the Old Testament.

00:37:12 ►

But the first quarter of the book, I take the reader by the hand

00:37:18 ►

and explain how I got from Zen Buddhism to DMT

00:37:22 ►

and how the DMT work didn’t quite you know fit in with a zen model but

00:37:27 ►

it did better with a you know model which is articulated extensively in the hebrew bible

00:37:34 ►

you know the prophetic experience you know but you know when you start to you know point at the bible

00:37:39 ►

you know you um you need to you know raise uh or you need to address certain extremely controversial topics like God and Israel.

00:37:52 ►

So it’s a lot more complicated than approaching things from the New Age point of view

00:38:01 ►

or the diluted Buddhism point of view.

00:38:03 ►

you know, new age point of view or the, you know, diluted Buddhism point of view.

00:38:12 ►

But still, if you’re going to be considering, you know, psychedelics as potentially spiritual, you know, to enhance your spiritual evolution, you want to look into, you know, models which

00:38:21 ►

have proven useful and, you know, resemble the psychedelic experience.

00:38:27 ►

You know, if you look at, you know, descriptions of visions in the Hebrew Bible, especially Ezekiel,

00:38:35 ►

it’s incredibly psychedelic.

00:38:37 ►

You know, so, you know, one of the strengths of, you know, the Bible is it describes, you know,

00:38:44 ►

how to be a good prophet, how to ask questions

00:38:48 ►

in that state, how to understand the answers you’re given, how to negotiate in that DMT-like

00:38:58 ►

state. So I wouldn’t say it’s the best or the only way to understand the psychedelic experience.

00:39:09 ►

But if you’re more interested in the content of the psychedelic state,

00:39:17 ►

as opposed to the content-free, white-light, mystical union state,

00:39:23 ►

content-free, white light, mystical union state.

00:39:26 ►

You know, the Bible is a good alternative.

00:39:31 ►

You know, it’s a good option if you want to, you know, learn about DMT-like spiritual experience from the ground up.

00:39:37 ►

Yeah, and, of course, the name I left out of there was Rick Doblin

00:39:41 ►

and all the research that he’s gotten established in Israel, you know,

00:39:44 ►

besides MDMA and cannabis and psychedelic research, he and MAPS have done a great deal there. So,

00:39:52 ►

you know, that perhaps it also is medicine. There are a lot of Jewish doctors, but I think it’s

00:39:58 ►

important to realize that psychedelics are, you class-free and race-free,

00:40:05 ►

and they attack us all.

00:40:07 ►

You know, we’ve all had, or many of us,

00:40:10 ►

experiences with Iowa’s caros,

00:40:13 ►

who really come from a totally different culture than ours,

00:40:17 ►

and yet we wind up having interesting experiences

00:40:21 ►

that are cohesive with both of our cultures.

00:40:24 ►

So it’s just something that I’m curious about,

00:40:27 ►

and I hope more people kind of explore a little bit.

00:40:31 ►

So let me open it up here to see if there’s other people with questions.

00:40:35 ►

Go ahead, Mark.

00:40:36 ►

Are you raising your hand?

00:40:38 ►

Go ahead.

00:40:38 ►

So, Rick, you’ve been such a huge influence on my life.

00:40:42 ►

Oh, my gosh.

00:40:42 ►

So I’ve got your signature on my books.

00:40:44 ►

Long story short, it’s all about the soul process.

00:40:47 ►

So long story short, about four or five years ago, I thought my son was going to die.

00:40:52 ►

And I started looking at this stuff as if some other way to get across.

00:40:56 ►

Look at that.

00:40:57 ►

So I started looking at out-of-body experiences and near-death experiences and came up with DMT.

00:41:01 ►

Then all of a sudden ran to the DMT, the spirit molecule, Joe Rogan and you. And then finally the soul of prophecy. And that really dug into that.

00:41:10 ►

So I’ve met things and I felt like I’ve been told that everything’s going to be okay in the end.

00:41:15 ►

But now I’m into philosophy and psychology just to understand if any of that stuff’s actually real.

00:41:20 ►

So my question to you is, since the book has come out, is there anything that you can fill

00:41:25 ►

us in on that may be very interesting or things that you may have found? One of the things I’m

00:41:30 ►

trying to do now is compare experience reports with AI. So therefore, I can try and see if these

00:41:35 ►

10 or 20,000 experience reports I see across the web, if there’s any commonalities between them.

00:41:40 ►

And I’ll shut up now. Sorry. Thank you so much. Sure. Yeah. Well, thanks for tuning in.

00:41:48 ►

Well, let’s see.

00:41:51 ►

Yeah.

00:41:52 ►

I mean, can you encapsulate that question into like one question?

00:41:59 ►

So it’s okay.

00:41:59 ►

So since you did this whole prophecy,

00:42:01 ►

is there anything interesting or bizarre that you found that would kind of lead

00:42:05 ►

you to still believe that it’s something else over there besides just yourself oh oh i see um well so

00:42:11 ►

you’re asking if i’m convinced that the dmt state let’s say is objectively real as opposed to just

00:42:18 ►

a product of our mind yes sir or if there’s anything else that you’ve found since your book. Well, you know, with in terms of the prophetic states work, no, you know, I get quite a bit of email.

00:42:35 ►

And I’ve heard from just a small number of Jewish people, you know, that they’re interested in the implications.

00:42:44 ►

There’s, you know, one guy I just, you know, heard from a few weeks ago

00:42:47 ►

who smoked some DMT, you know, former, you know, super orthodox guy,

00:42:52 ►

you know, black hat and side curls and black seats and things.

00:42:56 ►

And he, you know, kind of went off, you know, to Tibet and or, you know,

00:43:01 ►

Nepal and smoked DMT.

00:43:03 ►

And it confirmed all of his studies of Kabbalah so

00:43:07 ►

you know he’s been uh you know going around uh I guess you would say you know like initiating

00:43:15 ►

you know former or currently you know super orthodox you know Jews to experience DMT you

00:43:22 ►

know so I I think it would be you you know, interesting, you know, to interview

00:43:27 ►

those guys, you know, carefully and ask them what is going on, what the commonalities are,

00:43:32 ►

you know, like you’re wondering about. You know, but, you know, whether or not there’s

00:43:38 ►

any new, you know, data about the reality of the DMT world still remains to be worked out.

00:43:48 ►

That’s one of the things that’s going on at Imperial College now,

00:43:52 ►

where Andrew’s paper with me on the continuous infusion study is being worked on, planned.

00:44:01 ►

So I think if you can keep people in the DMT state for a number of hours, you’d be able to start

00:44:08 ►

doing experiments to determine if it’s a purely

00:44:12 ►

internally generated world or

00:44:15 ►

possesses some inherent

00:44:18 ►

external objective reality too.

00:44:23 ►

Can I jump in and offer some?

00:44:26 ►

Go ahead, Andrew.

00:44:29 ►

Yeah, I mean, it’s a really interesting question

00:44:31 ►

because this idea of the ontology

00:44:34 ►

or the reality of the DMT world

00:44:36 ►

comes up again and again.

00:44:39 ►

People say, oh, it’s amazing, it’s incredible,

00:44:41 ►

it’s astonishing, but is it real, right?

00:44:43 ►

And Rick mentioned this this

00:44:45 ►

continuous intravenous infusion technique and the idea i think there’s two there’s two ways you can

00:44:52 ►

approach that question you can one approach kind of the the standard approach is to kind of try and

00:44:58 ►

get into that world and test it in some way or to test the intelligences, give them mathematical problems or things like that.

00:45:08 ►

But there’s another way that you can do,

00:45:10 ►

which people haven’t really spoken about,

00:45:12 ►

which I’m actually going to talk about at Breaking Convention,

00:45:14 ►

which is actually to look at the, basically,

00:45:17 ►

the worlds are always constructed, as I always say,

00:45:20 ►

they’re always constructed by the brain.

00:45:22 ►

But the properties of the world depends upon how

00:45:26 ►

it’s constructed um so for example a sensed world has a number of properties so when i say a sensed

00:45:34 ►

world i mean like the normal world that you are experiencing has a number of properties that are

00:45:39 ►

a direct consequence of the way that your brain constructs it and the way that your brain basically builds a model and then is testing it against sensory data on a continuous basis now that that differs from

00:45:51 ►

something like a dream world where the brain doesn’t have access to sensory data so it’s my

00:45:56 ►

opinion that you can actually start to look at the way the brain is constructing the dmt world

00:46:02 ►

does this look more like a world that it’s simply kind of making up

00:46:07 ►

or does it look like a world that it is testing against sensory data? In other words, does it

00:46:13 ►

look like it’s a world that’s being constructed under the modulation of sensory information?

00:46:18 ►

So there’s two completely complementary approaches there. But I think looking at the world

00:46:23 ►

and the way it’s constructed by the brain is actually much more amenable and certainly using a combination of extended state dmt together

00:46:31 ►

with you know neuroimaging and actually performing tests on on the subject might actually be a way to

00:46:38 ►

get at that question without having to try and get into the dmt world if that makes sense yeah and i

00:46:44 ►

was there with ayahuasca so like for me now it’s all about,

00:46:47 ►

well now can I trust it?

00:46:48 ►

And is it all in my head and going back to philosophy because that’s the only

00:46:52 ►

way that you can test any of this stuff because there is no science to it.

00:46:55 ►

Sorry. Thank you so much. Both of you. I appreciate it.

00:46:58 ►

And I’m really fascinated by all of this,

00:47:02 ►

these potential studies. My question to you, Rick, because you’re

00:47:07 ►

someone that actually has hands-on experience with someone that’s having a more extended DMT

00:47:13 ►

experience in a medical setting. What do you think all of the, like an MRI and all is going to do to,

00:47:20 ►

how’s it going to affect the DMT trip? Well, it’s going to.

00:47:28 ►

You know, but, you know, when you’re in a big, you know, like after you’ve been given a large dose of DMT, you know, to a large extent, you know, the outside world just, you know, falls away.

00:47:40 ►

Okay.

00:47:40 ►

Okay.

00:47:48 ►

You know, when we gave our large doses of DMT, we checked the blood pressure at the two-minute point,

00:47:53 ►

you know, two minutes after the injection, and five minutes, and also ten minutes.

00:48:02 ►

And most of the volunteers, almost all of them, were unable to feel or had no recollection of feeling this incredibly tight cuff inflate over their arm.

00:48:07 ►

At the two-minute point, it was almost uniformly the case, and usually at five minutes too.

00:48:14 ►

So I think if you’re on a big enough dose of DMT, you could be anywhere.

00:48:23 ►

And you’re functionally deaf too, I think. I don’t think you can hear things

00:48:28 ►

in the outside world. At least not to the same

00:48:33 ►

or in the same manner as you do normally.

00:48:39 ►

But the main thing is

00:48:41 ►

that you’re not that involved with

00:48:44 ►

the outside world.

00:48:47 ►

You’re out of your body.

00:48:49 ►

You’re occupied otherwise with the contents of the state.

00:48:54 ►

When you did your initial DMT work, and the first, I’m revisiting a little bit of your spirit molecule book.

00:49:05 ►

How surprised were you when some of these stories started coming back about other world entities, et cetera?

00:49:14 ►

Well, let me finish about the MRI because I was thinking back to those days.

00:49:30 ►

You know, back to those days, you know, we gave DMT to maybe three people, you know, being scanned in an MRI.

00:49:35 ►

And it’s a really loud, claustrophobic experience.

00:49:40 ►

But I think the three people that we studied really didn’t complain.

00:49:48 ►

You know, they had to stay in there as the you know drug wore off and once you know they were straight you know so that was hard you know but in the in the middle of the

00:49:53 ►

experience itself uh they were pretty oblivious to all you know the racket going on um well you

00:50:02 ►

know the entities you know the beings uh it was strange because I spoke with about 20 informants about what to expect when I was going to begin giving DMT to people.

00:50:18 ►

I spoke to Terrence.

00:50:20 ►

I spoke to his wife.

00:50:21 ►

I spoke to Dennis and 15 or 16 other people, you know, I asked them,

00:50:27 ►

you know, what should I expect once I start this study? And the vast majority said the beings,

00:50:37 ►

you know, there are these aliens, these elves, these tykes, these things. You know, so I included that question or, you know,

00:50:47 ►

those items on the rating scale that we developed to quantify the state.

00:50:53 ►

But, you know, still, well, and, you know, from my own personal experience,

00:50:59 ►

which I described with a Graham Hancock interview from Sedona a few months back.

00:51:06 ►

My first DMT experience was full of aliens, full of these little beings who emerged from

00:51:13 ►

a waterfall and started speaking to me.

00:51:17 ►

You know, so, you know, I ought to have been expecting the frequency of reports of beings.

00:51:26 ►

But I wasn’t really quite prepared.

00:51:31 ►

And I think even more troubling at the time was not simply their encounters with the beings,

00:51:39 ►

but their conviction of their reality, that, you know, they were convinced that these things

00:51:47 ►

were real, and they were powerful and intelligent in a way that was just incomprehensible. And it

00:51:54 ►

was, you know, happening in real time. So, you know, that was perhaps, you know, the harder, you know, concept to, you know, wrap my head around,

00:52:07 ►

the idea of, you know, the reality, you know, bases of, or, you know, the reality experience that people were coming back with.

00:52:21 ►

You know, Rick, you talked about something I’d never heard anybody say before.

00:52:26 ►

I’m wondering if anybody else reported to you. You said the little tykes were coming out of a

00:52:30 ►

waterfall, and that’s the first time I’ve ever heard that. Well, I’m sure, you know, somebody

00:52:37 ►

else, you know, has experienced that. But, you know, we’ve had probably a hundred of these

00:52:43 ►

experiences here on this show.

00:52:45 ►

Oh, Larry’s holding up his hand.

00:52:46 ►

No, I’m just, I’m really curious.

00:52:49 ►

Are they always little?

00:52:53 ►

I’ll let you answer that, Ray.

00:52:55 ►

No, I don’t think so.

00:52:57 ►

I don’t think so.

00:52:59 ►

But still.

00:53:01 ►

That’s just curious.

00:53:02 ►

You know, if, yeah, yeah, well, they’re usually small, you know, but if you think about it, I mean, you know, what, you know, what would it be like to encounter a 90-foot high entity or being?

00:53:19 ►

It’s hard enough with them being small. I think if they were much bigger, it might not be that easy to deal with.

00:53:31 ►

Maybe not.

00:53:32 ►

That’s the first thought that came to mind.

00:53:36 ►

Or it could be our grandiosity as a species.

00:53:40 ►

We think of the other as somehow smaller than we are.

00:53:44 ►

She’s, you know, we think of the other as somehow smaller than we are.

00:53:51 ►

I appreciate your open mindedness about that, which, of course, a scientist has to have you in the very beginning. You said something. I don’t know if I heard it right.

00:53:53 ►

But did you say you actually had an experience where Terrence McKenna was around?

00:53:59 ►

Yeah. Yeah. I spoke about that a few months ago at an interview that I did with Graham Hancock.

00:54:07 ►

Yeah, it was, you know, part of, you know, what we were speaking about earlier in the show about you get older, you want to write your stories out.

00:54:15 ►

So, you know, people can, you know, learn from your own experience, you know, rather than simply what you’ve written about scientific matters.

00:54:24 ►

rather than simply what you’ve written about scientific matters.

00:54:25 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:54:30 ►

So the first time I smoked in a DMT, Terrence gave it to me. It was on the West Coast in an incredibly supportive environment.

00:54:36 ►

And, yeah, these little beings, you know, four feet tall,

00:54:41 ►

emerged from a blazing, colorful waterfall.

00:54:47 ►

And how did you meet Terrence for the first time?

00:54:51 ►

I met Terrence at Esalen.

00:54:54 ►

Ah, okay.

00:54:55 ►

So when he was speaking there?

00:54:57 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:54:58 ►

There were some psychedelic conferences as well, and we attended at least, you know, one of those together.

00:55:07 ►

So listen, we’re running out of time here. So do any of our other people here want to ask a

00:55:13 ►

question while we have Rick available? I’ve got a real question for Rick. Go ahead, Kevin.

00:55:19 ►

Yeah, so kind of speaking of Terrence and your first experience, and so many of us were exposed to DMT by DMT,

00:55:29 ►

the Spiro Malcolm book or the documentary or maybe Alex Gray’s work.

00:55:37 ►

But I’m interested how we were first exposed to DMT.

00:55:42 ►

Yeah.

00:55:44 ►

Well, do you mean as a concept or the topic of DMT?

00:55:48 ►

So, yeah.

00:55:49 ►

I mean, the concept of it or just your first ever encounter with what DMT was and what

00:55:56 ►

it could do and how it sparked interest to lead you to do the research.

00:56:11 ►

research? I came across DMT in the scientific literature, but I can’t quite remember when or where. It must have been while I was doing my melatonin work in the early 1980s, the mid-1980s.

00:56:21 ►

And my first contact with the experience that it can produce,

00:56:27 ►

you know, was in the 80s, maybe, you know, five years within that time or a couple of years.

00:56:33 ►

Yeah, you know, so I was a marked man after that, you know, DMT experience. It was

00:56:38 ►

an epiphany. And I decided that was going to be my career path, you know, from there on out,

00:56:45 ►

you know, my career path, my philosophical path, one of the tools of a spiritual path.

00:56:52 ►

Yeah, you know, so yeah, there was no turning back at that point.

00:56:57 ►

And Rick, your story is identical to the story of Myron Stoleroff, who had LSD for the first

00:57:03 ►

time in the 50s. He said there was, and literally, I think he said there was no turning back after that first time.

00:57:09 ►

Yeah, it’s a strange thing.

00:57:11 ►

You wonder, you know, how that works.

00:57:13 ►

And I think that, you know, ties in with the idea of psychedelics as, you know, super placebos.

00:57:19 ►

I think they make real something that was just theoretical before or unconscious before.

00:57:30 ►

You know, Myron was a changed man.

00:57:33 ►

I was a changed man.

00:57:34 ►

But it wasn’t like we were different people. More like the things within us, which in our cases were for scientific inquiry and personal growth.

00:57:53 ►

Those kinds of concepts were made so clear and so convincingly true.

00:58:02 ►

But if those concepts weren’t there in the first place,

00:58:06 ►

then the outcome would have been completely different.

00:58:09 ►

I agree.

00:58:10 ►

I agree.

00:58:11 ►

Well, listen, Rick, I promise you we wouldn’t keep you over an hour.

00:58:14 ►

So I sincerely appreciate your time.

00:58:17 ►

And on that, I think it’s a good place to end.

00:58:20 ►

I hope that sometime we’ll have a chance to come back and do this again.

00:58:24 ►

And particularly as Andrew and Danny and Kevin and some of these guys get a I hope that sometime we’ll have a chance to come back and do this again.

00:58:31 ►

Particularly as Andrew and Danny and Kevin and some of these guys get a little farther along in their research,

00:58:36 ►

I’d like to maybe have you come back and comment on what they’ve been able to discover, if you like.

00:58:38 ►

Yeah, yeah.

00:58:41 ►

So that would be fun.

00:58:43 ►

I always like to make comments.

00:58:50 ►

Well, again, we appreciate your time. And for the rest of you, I sincerely appreciate you being here again tonight.

00:58:56 ►

And I look forward to seeing you next Monday. Until then, keep the old faith and stay high.

00:59:05 ►

If you are interested in Graham Hancock’s interview with Dr. Strassman that was just mentioned,

00:59:08 ►

I’ve added the link to that YouTube talk in today’s program notes,

00:59:12 ►

which you will find at psychedelicsalon.com.

00:59:16 ►

And for now, this is Lorenzo signing off from Cyberdelic Space.

00:00:00 ►

Be well, my friends. Thank you.

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