Program Notes
Guest speaker: Terence McKenna & Ralph Abraham
This is part two of the conversation between Terence McKenna and Ralph Abraham, which is featured in program #019 of the Psychedelic Salon.
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019 - The World Wide Web and the Millennium
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021 - Psychedelic Psychotherapy and the Shadow
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Transcript
00:00:00 ►
Greetings from cyberdelic space. I’m Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:00:21 ►
Well, as promised, today’s program is a continuation of a conversation between Terrence McKenna and Ralph Abraham that took place on August 1st in 1998.
00:00:33 ►
And in the previous podcast, Terrence and Ralph each gave their views about the World Wide Web and the Millennium, and then they opened it up for questions.
00:00:43 ►
a millennium, and then they open it up for questions.
00:00:50 ►
Now, before I pick up on where we left off, I first want to replay a short soundbite from that program.
00:00:52 ►
It’s one of, I think, one of Terrence McKenna’s more poetic riffs about the Internet.
00:00:58 ►
And the reason I really want to play it right now, besides the fact that I just love listening
00:01:03 ►
to it, is that for those of
00:01:05 ►
you who never really had an opportunity to experience Terence McKenna in person, this
00:01:10 ►
should give you a little better appreciation for his ability to use the English language
00:01:16 ►
as if it was a fine musical instrument of some kind. This is clearly a bard at the top
00:01:22 ►
of his game.
00:01:23 ►
This is clearly a bard at the top of his game.
00:01:33 ►
The occult dreams of Gnosticism and alchemy and hermetic thought, the idea that man, rather than being a fallen creature,
00:01:37 ►
could be some kind of co-partner in the enterprise of creation,
00:01:43 ►
that particular strain of fantasy gets an enormous shot in the arm
00:01:49 ►
from the rise of cyberspace, the informational technologies and the power to manipulate them,
00:01:57 ►
the power to steer human history toward a world of ever greater art and artifice with all the contradictions and ambiguities
00:02:10 ►
that that necessarily would entail.
00:02:15 ►
So that’s my take on where we are at the millennium with the Internet.
00:02:21 ►
And now for a counterpoint of just plain talk.
00:02:31 ►
tune in. And now for a counterpoint of just plain talk. I wish I had a picture of the bemused grin on Ralph Abraham’s face as he watched Terrence do his thing just then. What was truly amazing to me
00:02:38 ►
is that during that same day, it was a Saturday, Terrence had gone on like that for probably six or seven hours, you know, and all without notes.
00:02:49 ►
Now here he was at nine or ten o’clock at night, still rhapsodizing poetic.
00:02:54 ►
What a trip he was.
00:02:56 ►
So, when we left them in the previous podcast, they were taking questions from the audience.
00:03:01 ►
So we’ll pick up right now with someone from the audience asking another question.
00:03:08 ►
Back again to the idea of technology.
00:03:14 ►
Excuse me if I use the Q word here.
00:03:18 ►
As a result of transportation and communication,
00:03:21 ►
we’ve made a huge quantum leap in the last 40, 50 years. I grew up,
00:03:27 ►
the telephone was there. It was always there. It would always be there. And I pick it up.
00:03:31 ►
It’s just like an extension of my hand. The TV. When I grew up, the people who used computers
00:03:38 ►
had glasses three feet thick in the plastic pen pouch. You know, as we’re talking about being right on the
00:03:47 ►
threshold of the year 2000, you know, and the end of the chicken little-ism of, you
00:03:56 ►
know, this summer it’s the asteroid that’s going to hit us or whatever is in vogue, I can’t help but have a feeling like being aware of what we’ve seen in the last
00:04:10 ►
50 years, and knowing that I’m going to be alive for the next 50 years, and being aware
00:04:19 ►
of what the curve looks like, to an extent. I mean, I don’t spend 100% of my waking time
00:04:24 ►
thinking about disaster, but I can’t help but think whatever is going to happen
00:04:29 ►
whatever the fate is of us as humans that I’ll see it in my lifetime so I
00:04:36 ►
guess what my quote I’d like to ask you is could you paint a picture of what the year 2000 looks like, what the year 2010, 2020…
00:04:49 ►
Is it possible to…
00:04:54 ►
Well, 2000 is pretty easy
00:04:57 ►
because it’s only 18 months away
00:05:00 ►
unless there’s some enormous breakthrough.
00:05:03 ►
You know, it will not be great.
00:05:05 ►
Some of us are there already.
00:05:09 ►
More of us will catch up in the next 18 months.
00:05:13 ►
But when you start talking about, you know,
00:05:15 ►
Ralph thought the idea of downloading people into circuitry
00:05:21 ►
was out there a long way.
00:05:24 ►
Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t.
00:05:26 ►
A few months ago you may have followed this stuff out of Vienna
00:05:30 ►
where this guy Anton Zellinger and his research team
00:05:34 ►
achieved a quantum teleportation of a photon.
00:05:39 ►
Well, this is a technology that I would have thought
00:05:43 ►
was a thousand years away.
00:05:46 ►
In other words, I try to be the most radical and permissive thinker on the block,
00:05:51 ►
and I can’t stay up with nature and science news.
00:05:56 ►
The people who did the quantum teleportation of this photon
00:05:59 ►
said that their analysis of the mathematics which permitted it
00:06:04 ►
made no distinction between a photon and an electron
00:06:07 ►
and that it was simply a matter of ramping up the input energy.
00:06:12 ►
Well, imagine if we’re five years, ten years away from a technology
00:06:18 ►
where you flicker in and out of existence
00:06:20 ►
as you routinely move from your job in Amherst to your apartment in Shinjuku
00:06:27 ►
and back and forth on a daily basis.
00:06:36 ►
There’s a significant portion of the physics community that is now talking about time travel,
00:06:44 ►
something that you were just laughed off the block 15 years ago
00:06:48 ►
if you talked about this.
00:06:49 ►
Now there are numerous approaches, schemes, possibilities.
00:06:54 ►
Well, what if one of these things kicked in and arrived?
00:06:59 ►
Artificial programs for evolving software through Darwinian mechanisms
00:07:06 ►
could produce software with capacities that none of us would have ever designed toward or anticipated.
00:07:14 ►
In other words, there are many ways in which the process could surprise us
00:07:20 ►
and something could jump out.
00:07:22 ►
So I think once we get that, in a way,
00:07:25 ►
the millennium is holding the process back
00:07:28 ►
because the millennium is being squat on
00:07:32 ►
by Christian fundamentalism to some degree.
00:07:36 ►
It’s their holiday.
00:07:37 ►
It’s the millenary celebration of what?
00:07:43 ►
Of Western European values and Christian civilization.
00:07:48 ►
And once we get past it at year two, three,
00:07:51 ►
and that sinks in that there isn’t going to be any Trump of judgment
00:07:56 ►
and that there is no return of the second person of the Trinity and so forth,
00:08:02 ►
and that we’re staring another thousand years in the face,
00:08:07 ►
the enthusiasm for the Christian right-wing agenda
00:08:13 ►
and some of its more repressive and homophobic and racist tendencies
00:08:20 ►
will just seem old hat.
00:08:23 ►
It will seem 20th century.
00:08:26 ►
And no one will want to be associated with something like that.
00:08:31 ►
And you know, Max Planck said of the history of physics,
00:08:35 ►
he said it proceeds funeral by funeral.
00:08:39 ►
And so will human progress.
00:08:41 ►
But I think once we get past the millennium,
00:08:44 ►
there’ll be a sense of
00:08:45 ►
speed, connectivity. We’ve got to get everybody T1 connections. We’ve got to get everybody
00:08:53 ►
wired in. Basic problems have to be addressed. Build down our nuclear arsenals. Clean up
00:09:02 ►
the obvious agenda.
00:09:05 ►
I don’t have to tell you what it is.
00:09:06 ►
This all will come.
00:09:07 ►
We have no choice.
00:09:09 ►
We can delay these tasks, but we can’t avoid them entirely.
00:09:14 ►
It’s our bed we’ve fouled.
00:09:17 ►
It’s our nest that we’re called upon to clean up.
00:09:22 ►
So that’s what I see.
00:09:23 ►
I see a little bit past the turn of the century. When you
00:09:26 ►
start talking 2010, 2012, the technological acceleration and the unexpected factor makes
00:09:38 ►
it impossible to predict. I mean, there could be an alien artifact. There could be a quasar
00:09:44 ►
ignition at the galactic core.
00:09:46 ►
There could be all kinds of things.
00:09:49 ►
And the person best qualified to foresee the year 2012 actually says he can’t see it, so that’s that.
00:09:57 ►
Meanwhile, well, you hesitated, Terrence, Time and Newsweek magazines had no inhibition in laying down exactly what was coming in 2010,
00:10:07 ►
20, and 30,
00:10:08 ►
particularly 2030, their favorite year.
00:10:11 ►
Paperclothes and hovercraft?
00:10:13 ►
I think
00:10:14 ►
their predictions,
00:10:17 ►
as I read them,
00:10:19 ►
seem quite plausible
00:10:20 ►
and they live in the world
00:10:22 ►
of the information they represent
00:10:24 ►
in their pages.
00:10:26 ►
And I think that, okay, while you’re watching, while your eye is on Monica’s dress, somebody’s
00:10:33 ►
like turning the switch on Y2K under the table or something, that all of their current news
00:10:41 ►
and the stuff, all that they’re watching and the predictions they’re making for the next 10 or 20 or 30 years
00:10:49 ►
is all correct and all equally irrelevant
00:10:54 ►
because that’s nothing to do with what’s really going on that we’re talking about.
00:10:59 ►
And it’s quite possible that the chicken little scenarios
00:11:04 ►
or something equivalent are actually coming along,
00:11:07 ►
that there will be an increase in the rate of catastrophes.
00:11:12 ►
And that’s what all the indications are.
00:11:14 ►
You say, well, we have no choice but to look after this.
00:11:17 ►
Well, unfortunately, there is a choice in the function of denial as such,
00:11:21 ►
that a lot of people may just sit out the moment when you’re supposed
00:11:28 ►
to choose your chair, and the result will be irreversible damage to the environment,
00:11:34 ►
that there will be no fixing. Not all of them, the collapse of the world economy and so on,
00:11:40 ►
but some bad things are going to happen faster than before. That’s my only prediction.
00:11:46 ►
And I am opposed
00:11:47 ►
to any predictions about the future due to
00:11:50 ►
the fact of my belief, and this is our whole
00:11:51 ►
subject here, I want to repeat this,
00:11:54 ►
our belief is that we are
00:11:55 ►
at a millennium, a special
00:11:57 ►
hinge of history which is more
00:11:59 ►
than a speed bump, and therefore
00:12:01 ►
what we do and say matters, and
00:12:03 ►
more than other times,
00:12:05 ►
the future is up to grabs. And when you say that you have a vision of it, if that means
00:12:11 ►
that you’re going to sit down and not work to create that vision, then you’re in big
00:12:14 ►
trouble, because things are very much in a meltdown. We are between the caterpillar and
00:12:20 ►
the butterfly. And the butterfly could be an angel or a devil, suppose,
00:12:25 ►
that it actually mattered.
00:12:26 ►
What we thought, what we did,
00:12:28 ►
what we created,
00:12:29 ►
the stocks that we bought,
00:12:31 ►
the detergent that we bought,
00:12:32 ►
and every single thing that we did
00:12:34 ►
mattered a thousand-fold more
00:12:36 ►
than any other times.
00:12:38 ►
Then, it’s important that we do not
00:12:40 ►
predict the future.
00:12:42 ►
We work to create the future.
00:12:44 ►
That is our responsibility in a millennial moment
00:12:47 ►
more than other moments.
00:12:49 ►
That’s what has to happen.
00:12:50 ►
So don’t ask about 2010.
00:12:53 ►
Build it.
00:12:53 ►
That’s what we say.
00:12:55 ►
Right?
00:12:56 ►
Yeah.
00:12:56 ►
Yeah.
00:13:04 ►
So, more. I see one way back there.
00:13:09 ►
Yes.
00:13:11 ►
You talked about Terence’s idea on the AI and the emergence of that through the World Wide Web
00:13:20 ►
as a possible function of reaching a higher intelligence.
00:13:27 ►
I think it was Alan Turing who created the concept of the Turing test,
00:13:30 ►
and you can no longer tell the difference between a person sitting on a keyboard somewhere else
00:13:36 ►
writing to you or a computer program than you truly achieved artificial intelligence.
00:13:41 ►
And if that’s the case, it seems as though once that initial step has been made,
00:13:49 ►
that it’s going to be, that the pace of change that we see now is going to seem like a snail’s pace,
00:13:55 ►
because as you mentioned, the speed with which we function and our attention span
00:13:59 ►
to focus on any given problem is so brief compared to that which an artificial intelligence could apply
00:14:06 ►
and be creating new solutions and new applications for itself
00:14:10 ►
and replicating and creating new programs that once that occurs,
00:14:16 ►
it seems as though we’ll shed all these initial problems
00:14:23 ►
and things that are seeming to be pressing immediately on us very, very rapidly.
00:14:28 ►
Is that sort of mirroring what you’re seeing?
00:14:32 ►
Yeah, I mean, Hans Moravec, who’s written a lot about this
00:14:37 ►
and who runs the Carnegie Mellon Institute for Artificial Intelligence,
00:14:41 ►
he says we may not ever know what hit us, that if the net were
00:14:47 ►
to become sentient, even as sentient as a flatworm, in a matter of hours it could cover
00:14:55 ►
the distance from flatworm to prime, that it took us several hundred million years to cover because it evolves so rapidly
00:15:06 ►
and it can call down so much connectivity upon itself.
00:15:11 ►
You know, and talk about millennial change,
00:15:15 ►
what’s gone on in the past ten years
00:15:17 ►
while we’ve been quietly debating the internet
00:15:20 ►
and whether we should or shouldn’t get email,
00:15:23 ►
if you’re standing off from another planet looking at what’s going on,
00:15:28 ►
the machines have become telepathic.
00:15:32 ►
Ten years ago, the machines were as connected to each other as paperweights
00:15:38 ►
and silverware around the world is connected to each other.
00:15:43 ►
But we turned on the juice during the 90s
00:15:48 ►
and now vast amounts of information moves undetected by human minds,
00:15:54 ►
never seen by human minds.
00:15:57 ►
Decisions like how much oil should be pumped out of the pumping stations at Abu Dhabi into the waiting freighters
00:16:06 ►
so that the arrival of petroleum byproducts in the Los Angeles market
00:16:11 ►
is such that there is neither too much or too little.
00:16:15 ►
The setting of the world price of gold,
00:16:17 ►
the world rate at which we extract bauxite and potassium,
00:16:21 ►
these are decisions all made now by computers
00:16:26 ►
when engineers want to design new computer chips
00:16:30 ►
they give the design
00:16:32 ►
the performance specifications
00:16:34 ►
that the contract calls for
00:16:36 ►
is explained to a computer
00:16:38 ►
and the computer architects the circuit
00:16:42 ►
no human input into the actual geometry of the circuit is now necessary. So, you know, in a way, this process is happening very slowly. McLuhan, clear back in the 60s, said, we have become the genitals of our machines. We exist only to improve next year’s model.
00:17:02 ►
only to improve next year’s model.
00:17:05 ►
And, you know, when you think about that,
00:17:09 ►
there’s a lot of that going on.
00:17:11 ►
Every year we improve the machines.
00:17:15 ►
More evolutionarily efficient machines appear on the market.
00:17:19 ►
And, you know, you’ve got to wonder what’s going on here.
00:17:25 ►
You’ve been waiting since the beginning.
00:17:32 ►
For me, the connection with the Internet and the whole computer scene has satisfied a strong human need for community.
00:17:38 ►
And that’s the aspect of it that’s made a difference in my life.
00:17:41 ►
And I think more important for all of us than the information to which we have access
00:17:46 ►
and the way in which we can satisfy our curiosity
00:17:48 ►
and the tools that we can bring to bear on something.
00:17:52 ►
I wondered if you wanted to talk anything
00:17:53 ►
about the human connection
00:17:56 ►
that’s fostered by this whole thing.
00:18:02 ►
Well, I like the story of the two 12-year-olds who connected across continents.
00:18:09 ►
And this is, I’m guessing, that the community aspect, building new social worlds on the Internet,
00:18:19 ►
is of particular interest to people who are sort of fringing in the communities they live in,
00:18:26 ►
and then they seek company of fringe people elsewhere.
00:18:29 ►
For them, it’s more value than somebody who really fits in and gets on very well with all the neighbors.
00:18:35 ►
This might be everyone, I don’t know,
00:18:37 ►
but I think that there is special categories of senior citizens,
00:18:46 ►
12-year-olds, and people
00:18:48 ►
with a special interest, like a special kind
00:18:50 ►
of fish, and all this, that suddenly
00:18:52 ►
these communities form
00:18:54 ►
on a very large scale
00:18:55 ►
of people that would otherwise
00:18:58 ►
never even meet.
00:19:00 ►
And that’s because there is a way to find
00:19:02 ►
those people who have a better fit.
00:19:04 ►
And again, there’s a, I’m not a very social person, so I’m not good to answer this question,
00:19:10 ►
but it could be, and I think many people have suggested,
00:19:14 ►
people who are more socialized than I am,
00:19:17 ►
that the primary function of the Internet was a social one.
00:19:23 ►
So that’s a possibility.
00:19:26 ►
And maybe we have been very cold-hearted here
00:19:30 ►
in looking primarily at the information stored on the disk
00:19:34 ►
as opposed to the human contact.
00:19:36 ►
On the other hand, this aspect of the World Wide Web,
00:19:41 ►
let’s say communication between two friends
00:19:45 ►
is maintained by email, for example.
00:19:47 ►
That’s what I do.
00:19:48 ►
I’ve heard from, just in the past year,
00:19:50 ►
from old friends that I hadn’t seen for 30 years
00:19:52 ►
because they just got email
00:19:53 ►
and they were able to find me.
00:19:55 ►
And I really like this aspect,
00:19:59 ►
but it’s only slightly different
00:20:00 ►
from the telephone.
00:20:02 ►
I’ve made contact with old friends by email
00:20:04 ►
that I could have called, but I didn’t.
00:20:06 ►
But basically, it’s similar.
00:20:08 ►
This aspect, the social aspect of the World Wide Web,
00:20:12 ►
I would compare with the telephone network
00:20:14 ►
and the telegraph network
00:20:16 ►
and the ordinary postal network
00:20:18 ►
that you can send a postcard
00:20:20 ►
from the top of a mountain in Nepal
00:20:22 ►
and two weeks later it’s delivered in Los Angeles.
00:20:24 ►
To me, this is amazing. And yet, it goes back to the beginning of a mountain in Nepal, and two weeks later it’s delivered in Los Angeles. To me, this is amazing. And yet it goes back, the beginning of a postal service
00:20:29 ►
I think is around 4,000 years ago. So while it is very important, it’s heartwarming. It
00:20:35 ►
may be for such reasons, human reasons, that it’s preserved when threatened by, you know,
00:20:42 ►
to be killed by commerce or child pornography or something.
00:20:46 ►
And that’s good.
00:20:47 ►
But somehow the real revolutionary aspect is connecting people in a wider web
00:20:53 ►
than one that depends on two-person interaction, that kind of conversation.
00:21:02 ►
That’s just a guess.
00:21:08 ►
But see, the Internet and the World Wide Web have all these aspects. A lot of people have told me that the World Wide Web is of secondary
00:21:12 ►
importance. It’s email that really matters. The Internet is the Internet. It’s a matrix
00:21:18 ►
of computer networks, and it has these totally orthogonal functions, complementary functions, like email,
00:21:28 ►
listserv, newsgroups. The World Wide Web is just one among many. So you could make an
00:21:34 ►
argument that email is more important, is vastly more important, or newsgroups are more
00:21:38 ►
important than the World Wide Web. And for me, it’s the World Wide Web.
00:21:46 ►
I don’t know why I just see that
00:21:47 ►
as the most futuristic difference
00:21:49 ►
characterized by this altruism.
00:21:51 ►
It’s really the harbinger
00:21:55 ►
of a completely new society,
00:21:56 ►
a society made based on different principles.
00:22:00 ►
And that’s what’s really exciting
00:22:01 ►
because the society we’ve got
00:22:02 ►
based on the present principles
00:22:04 ►
is really too competitive, selfish, ignorant, destructive, and it’s going downhill fast.
00:22:11 ►
So we want a miracle. We want a millennium.
00:22:14 ►
Whether one is really happening or not, we’re dreaming.
00:22:17 ►
We’re engaging here in utopian fantasies, where we’re painting pictures of what could be,
00:22:23 ►
and so on, in the hopes that it is.
00:22:24 ►
fantasies where we’re painting pictures of what could be and so on in the hopes that it is.
00:22:30 ►
And we’re hoping for something just a step beyond a telephone revolution because we’ve had the telephone, well, it’s not all that long, 140 years. Thank you. space, it’s at least practicing what it would be like without gender. And I think that it’s very likely that as a feedback, as a side effect of even a temporary experiment with
00:23:11 ►
the World Wide Web, would be an enormous increase further in support of the partnership
00:23:18 ►
transformation or galactic resurgence, as Rian Eisler calls it, that we have been hoping for.
00:23:26 ►
I mean, that’s one.
00:23:31 ►
Just one of the things we want from a major social transformation is the equality of the genders.
00:23:37 ►
And there’s other things about competition and commercial and a million other things,
00:23:39 ►
and they’re all still possible.
00:23:45 ►
And one thing that might be the case in the year 2002 or 3 is that some of them are no longer possible
00:23:48 ►
because at the crucial instant
00:23:51 ►
we were watching Monica’s dress
00:23:54 ►
sounds good to me
00:23:57 ►
I think maybe we should quit soon
00:23:59 ►
I have a feeling of no
00:24:01 ►
well ok
00:24:02 ►
you then
00:24:04 ►
you have a feeling of, no, well, okay. You then. You.
00:24:09 ►
Vegging out.
00:24:11 ►
You know, the idea of vegging out over mash,
00:24:15 ►
at two o’clock in the morning I can turn on mash
00:24:17 ►
and kind of, and that’s almost a psychological pacifier, say.
00:24:24 ►
All of a sudden sudden go into the warehouse of ten years of MASH,
00:24:30 ►
at three o’clock in the morning I come home,
00:24:32 ►
I click on my digital device,
00:24:35 ►
and now I’m confronted with an index.
00:24:38 ►
What year do you want?
00:24:40 ►
What segment do you want?
00:24:42 ►
And I’ve got to go through all these choices.
00:24:45 ►
I don’t want those choices
00:24:47 ►
I want to veg out
00:24:48 ►
I don’t want to look at 10 years
00:24:49 ►
I just want to sit there and do that
00:24:51 ►
that seems to represent
00:24:53 ►
what I look at as a backlash
00:24:55 ►
and that Stefan and I was talking about
00:24:58 ►
how wonderful maybe things like Omega will be
00:25:01 ►
because they are a physical reality
00:25:03 ►
that I see kind of a backlash coming.
00:25:07 ►
I don’t know how it will shape itself,
00:25:09 ►
but things like MASH is an example of me of a frustration that a lot of people represent.
00:25:15 ►
What are your thoughts on how that might unfold?
00:25:20 ►
You mean how to deal with those who want to veg out?
00:25:23 ►
Yeah.
00:25:24 ►
If there’s going to be a war between intelligence and stupidity,
00:25:28 ►
I know where I’ll put my money.
00:25:32 ►
I mean, it doesn’t seem like a fair contest.
00:25:37 ►
The couch potatoes of the world will surge forward to vanquish creativity?
00:25:44 ►
Not.
00:25:40 ►
world will surge forward
00:25:41 ►
to vanquish
00:25:42 ►
creativity?
00:25:44 ►
Not.
00:25:47 ►
It could be
00:25:49 ►
that all
00:25:49 ►
that’s required
00:25:51 ►
for the
00:25:52 ►
couch potatoes
00:25:52 ►
is a different
00:25:53 ►
index than
00:25:54 ►
the date or
00:25:55 ►
the number of
00:25:56 ►
the, you know,
00:25:56 ►
you could search
00:25:57 ►
for the one
00:25:59 ►
where he drops
00:25:59 ►
the scalpel
00:26:01 ►
in the wound
00:26:02 ►
or something.
00:26:04 ►
A woman with a black shirt in the next room.
00:26:07 ►
Exactly.
00:26:07 ►
I had a question, but I wasn’t going to ask it
00:26:11 ►
because I thought I was the only one in here wondering it.
00:26:14 ►
And then I asked my sister.
00:26:15 ►
She said, no, she was wondering it too.
00:26:16 ►
So who really gives a shit about the year 2000?
00:26:19 ►
I mean, I feel like the main effect of the year 2000
00:26:22 ►
is that people get very, very tense or very, very excited or something.
00:26:25 ►
You know, they write their checks and it says 1998.
00:26:29 ►
They say, oh, those numbers are getting so big.
00:26:30 ►
Oh, my God, it’s going to turn two soon.
00:26:32 ►
But that’s only half the world to begin with.
00:26:35 ►
And a lot of people aren’t hooked into the web and aren’t going to be.
00:26:37 ►
And I’ve just come back or aren’t going to be for 40 years, 50 years.
00:26:41 ►
Maybe the main effect of the millennium will happen in, not within 18 months, but in 2078. And by the time 4,372 of the Christian era rolls around,
00:26:51 ►
they’ll say, yes, the third millennium actually kind of took off around, you know, the second
00:26:56 ►
century. I’m just not convinced that the year makes a difference.
00:27:01 ►
Well, I think we never made a case for the year,
00:27:08 ►
and we find the millennium or the subject that we’re talking about is a big change that’s happening around now
00:27:10 ►
that might have been going on for a hundred years,
00:27:12 ►
and it’s got nothing to do with the year 2000,
00:27:17 ►
except the idea is not happening in the year 2078.
00:27:21 ►
Something is happening now.
00:27:22 ►
It has nothing to do with the year 2000.
00:27:23 ►
We are in the midst.
00:27:26 ►
Are we or aren’t we in the midst of a big change? I say
00:27:28 ►
we are. I cannot prove it.
00:27:29 ►
That’s what we’re talking about.
00:27:32 ►
And the World Wide Web
00:27:34 ►
is either part of the evidence or it has to do
00:27:36 ►
with or it doesn’t.
00:27:38 ►
But isn’t it also part of,
00:27:40 ►
I mean, isn’t it always a big
00:27:42 ►
change? Isn’t 1,200 years before
00:27:44 ►
also a big change? Isn’t 3,000? I mean, this is our always a big change? Isn’t 1,200 years before also a big change?
00:27:45 ►
Isn’t 3,000?
00:27:46 ►
And this is our current big change in society that we’re trying to talk about,
00:27:51 ►
but it’s not a bigger change than other changes.
00:27:53 ►
Well, I think you put your finger on it when you said it’s fun and exciting and fun to talk about.
00:28:00 ►
Notice that if your view were to triumph,
00:28:04 ►
there would be no raison d’etre for having this meeting tonight.
00:28:09 ►
This is a form of entertainment, not to be taken overly seriously.
00:28:16 ►
And like all entertainment, you know, it’s hung on a thin peg indeed.
00:28:21 ►
So, yes, arguably the millennium is no more important than any other date, but
00:28:28 ►
it’s sort of like, I’ve heard people say of the L.A. earthquake some years ago, I didn’t
00:28:36 ►
care, I would live in Paris. Well, I think you misunderstand. The reason that earthquake
00:28:43 ►
was more important than an earthquake happening in Turkmenistan was because so many important people were thrown out of bed.
00:28:52 ►
And that experience was very enriching for them.
00:28:57 ►
So a lot of important people may be thrown out of bed by going over this entirely artificial and synthetic speed bump called the year 2000,
00:29:09 ►
but the fact that it’s artificial and synthetic
00:29:11 ►
won’t make the bruises they get by being thrown out of bed any less real.
00:29:17 ►
So it’ll shake up the right people.
00:29:21 ►
That’s what’s good about the year 2000.
00:29:23 ►
And the people who are innocent won’t even
00:29:25 ►
know it’s happening.
00:29:27 ►
You see, we have both
00:29:28 ►
devoted a book,
00:29:31 ►
at least, to the idea
00:29:34 ►
that the amount of novelty
00:29:35 ►
in a given year varies from
00:29:37 ►
year to year enormously, and we’ve tried to make
00:29:40 ►
maps of these, and it’s on
00:29:41 ►
our maps are completely
00:29:44 ►
different, but nevertheless there are
00:29:45 ►
these maps which
00:29:47 ►
claim the opposite of what you
00:29:49 ►
suggest, that there are
00:29:51 ►
yes, there are catastrophes and
00:29:54 ►
big changes every year,
00:29:56 ►
but considering the number of the magnitude
00:29:57 ►
and trying to add them up
00:29:59 ►
on the basis of any
00:30:01 ►
casual look through
00:30:03 ►
the Columbia Encyclopedia of Medieval History or whatever,
00:30:07 ►
you come up with your own view of the variation of the amount of novelty per year or per century.
00:30:15 ►
And it seems to me that there’s really a lot of it now.
00:30:18 ►
And Terence, I think he’s the only one who’s published a graph of novelty as a function of time on his website.
00:30:24 ►
And it’s the least
00:30:25 ►
flat graph I’ve ever seen in my life
00:30:28 ►
there’s not a flat
00:30:29 ►
spot to be found and
00:30:31 ►
we’re in the midst of a gigantic tumble
00:30:33 ►
according to him into the
00:30:35 ►
valley of novelty which is what he’s talking
00:30:37 ►
about here so we’re not going to
00:30:39 ►
agree with you about that but we can’t
00:30:41 ►
we can’t agree on the map of
00:30:43 ►
novelty in world cultural history as a function of time and we can’t agree on the map of novelty in
00:30:45 ►
world cultural history as a function of time,
00:30:48 ►
and we can’t prove to each other,
00:30:49 ►
we can’t prove to you, we can’t prove that we’re
00:30:51 ►
right and you’re wrong or anything like that.
00:30:53 ►
It’s more or less a personal impression,
00:30:56 ►
and it seems perhaps
00:30:58 ►
that there is a kind of
00:30:59 ►
a minor consensus
00:31:01 ►
emerging. I mean, how many
00:31:03 ►
books have been devoted to the idea
00:31:06 ►
that this is a time of big change,
00:31:08 ►
at least comparable to the Renaissance
00:31:09 ►
or the time of early Christianity
00:31:12 ►
or something like that?
00:31:14 ►
There’s a lot of books.
00:31:15 ►
The World Future Society,
00:31:18 ►
the Futurists of America,
00:31:21 ►
Urban Laszlo’s book,
00:31:23 ►
The Bifurcation Age.
00:31:24 ►
I mean, there are a lot of books. There’s a flood of books, and none of America, Urban Laszlo’s book, The Bifurcation Age. I mean, there are a lot of books.
00:31:25 ►
There’s a flood of books, and none of them, except one I can think of by that Stephen Jay Gould,
00:31:31 ►
none has anything to do with the year 2000.
00:31:34 ►
It’s just this is a time of big change with technology, with world population,
00:31:39 ►
with the environmental problem, with the nuclear, with pesticides, the ozone, with, you know, that they’re
00:31:46 ►
just count them up. It’s such an enormous number. And the World Wide Web, among them,
00:31:52 ►
the computer revolution, the euro dollar. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff going on, an
00:32:00 ►
extraordinary amount for a given time. One explanation or interpretation of this,
00:32:06 ►
a subjective reason for this,
00:32:08 ►
it was suggested in one question,
00:32:11 ►
that time somehow is speeding up.
00:32:13 ►
None of us can resist this impression.
00:32:16 ►
And why do you think?
00:32:18 ►
I don’t remember my father talking about this.
00:32:20 ►
For him, time was not speeding up.
00:32:27 ►
My grandfather, I don’t think time was speeding up for him, in spite of the fact that technology was on a roll, definitely, in terms of airplanes
00:32:34 ►
and steam engines and trains and electricity and telegraph and telephone. There was all
00:32:38 ►
that. Still, there was not anywhere near the feeling of revolution that we have now.
00:32:43 ►
anywhere near the feeling of revolution that we have now.
00:32:46 ►
We could be wrong.
00:32:54 ►
And if we are wrong, then I would say that’s real bad news for you young folks because you’re going to have a really bad time.
00:32:56 ►
What we need is to get the train off the death track by some kind of major change.
00:33:01 ►
And if it’s not happening by itself, we have to make it.
00:33:01 ►
by some kind of major change,
00:33:03 ►
and if it’s not happening by itself,
00:33:04 ►
we have to make it.
00:33:06 ►
And one way or another,
00:33:07 ►
it will be a millennium,
00:33:10 ►
or it will go down from stupidity,
00:33:12 ►
which is inherent, implicit,
00:33:14 ►
and unavoidable in the human species.
00:33:16 ►
Just too dumb to survive.
00:33:19 ►
This train is bound for glory.
00:33:29 ►
I think we should… Well, a couple more.
00:33:30 ►
Okay, a couple more.
00:33:32 ►
It’s you, a black dress.
00:33:35 ►
Where’s the microphone, Dave?
00:33:44 ►
When I first started coming to Omega about 20 years ago, I felt that I was at the dawning of a new age.
00:33:50 ►
I was excited. I felt filled with spirit.
00:33:57 ►
I don’t feel that now.
00:34:00 ►
As I hear you people talking about all these technological marvels and its effect,
00:34:05 ►
I feel it’s arid somehow, and I’m not excited by it.
00:34:13 ►
I feel that we’ve somehow passed the millennium that didn’t happen 20 years ago.
00:34:25 ►
1978?
00:34:27 ►
Yeah.
00:34:28 ►
It’s possible that
00:34:30 ►
it’s already over, that we
00:34:32 ►
missed it.
00:34:35 ►
But we should
00:34:37 ►
keep trying, just
00:34:40 ►
in case it’s not dead.
00:34:43 ►
Are you cyber-literate,
00:34:46 ►
or are you looking at it from the outside or the inside?
00:34:54 ►
Let’s talk next summer.
00:34:57 ►
That’s what I would say.
00:35:01 ►
The train hasn’t left the station yet.
00:35:05 ►
That same train.
00:35:07 ►
I wanted to say something based on, from a business point of view,
00:35:13 ►
maybe not so philosophical.
00:35:15 ►
I work in this industry for a living,
00:35:17 ►
and this is purely by chance that I fell upon this.
00:35:21 ►
And I find this very fascinating.
00:35:23 ►
I produce websites for very high-profile clients.
00:35:27 ►
And what’s most fascinating from my point of view is in business,
00:35:34 ►
it’s fascinating how companies like Procter & Gamble and Ford and GM
00:35:38 ►
and Continental Airlines and MetLife Insurance,
00:35:42 ►
their CEOs and the executives are all of a sudden looking to pre-30-year-olds for guidance.
00:35:51 ►
And the gap has gone from, you know, the stodgy Wall Street, you know,
00:35:57 ►
you have to be 60 to make this amount of money and be respected,
00:36:01 ►
to me who’s 28, got in this business three, four years ago, being
00:36:07 ►
incredibly respected. And these companies don’t really know why they’re doing it. Procter
00:36:15 ►
and Gamble, a visionary company since 1837, possibly, doesn’t know why they’re making
00:36:23 ►
a website and is spending millions and millions of dollars.
00:36:27 ►
MetLife Insurance, Continental Airlines, same thing.
00:36:30 ►
They don’t know why they’re doing it.
00:36:32 ►
And it’s not based on any sort of historical data.
00:36:34 ►
It’s not based on the advertising model.
00:36:37 ►
None of it makes sense to them, so they’re just kind of going with the flow,
00:36:42 ►
which is amazing.
00:36:46 ►
Based on eyeballs. kind of going with the flow, which is amazing. Well, we’re all going with the flow. I mean, hardly anybody is resisting. Who can resist
00:36:52 ►
it? I think there’s really a flow into this thing, and for a lot of businesses it might
00:36:58 ►
be for no reason. I think it’s great they’re spending money like that. Terrence, we’re in the wrong business. Obviously.
00:37:05 ►
Yes.
00:37:10 ►
But could it be, I mean, let me ask you,
00:37:12 ►
you talk to these people,
00:37:16 ►
do you think that possibly when they look into the screen,
00:37:18 ►
they ask your advice, they made a website,
00:37:19 ►
and they’re looking in to see what you did,
00:37:24 ►
that there’s actually a backflow of altruism and spirituality which is coming into them,
00:37:25 ►
which was unexpected.
00:37:28 ►
Well, I had never heard that…
00:37:32 ►
You should know.
00:37:34 ►
No, I never heard that word, internet and spirituality, in the same sentence until I came here.
00:37:40 ►
And this has been…
00:37:42 ►
It’ll be great for me to go back to the office on Monday and say,
00:37:44 ►
Hey, I met these great guys and I saw this great thing. It’s going to be wild
00:37:48 ►
for me to even say one thing that came out of your mouth in a meeting.
00:37:51 ►
But I don’t, like I said before, I don’t, I think
00:37:56 ►
I’m very naive in this industry and maybe everyone in this room is
00:38:00 ►
naive to what the internet can and will be, but it’s
00:38:04 ►
just, it’s going to be amazing.
00:38:06 ►
And I can’t really answer your question, unfortunately.
00:38:10 ►
Well, we’ll be on the lookout, and we’re going to talk next summer.
00:38:13 ►
Okay, I’ll be back.
00:38:14 ►
Because it’s a possibility.
00:38:17 ►
I’m glad that just by suggesting it, as a matter of fact, might make it true,
00:38:20 ►
even though it wasn’t going to be true.
00:38:22 ►
But now that we’ve discussed it, that’s it.
00:38:25 ►
They’re done for. We’ve discussed it, that’s it. They’re done for.
00:38:26 ►
Yeah.
00:38:28 ►
It could be.
00:38:30 ►
Yeah.
00:38:31 ►
I mean, why do placebos work so well?
00:38:35 ►
Just think that over.
00:38:37 ►
Is this paranormal or what?
00:38:39 ►
I mean, placebos are…
00:38:41 ►
Give me the placebo.
00:38:44 ►
You’re more diseased than any other drug in history.
00:38:47 ►
Placebo.com.
00:38:49 ►
Have you got that yet?
00:38:51 ►
You try that out.
00:38:57 ►
Okay, and I’m scanning around.
00:39:00 ►
There in the back row in a red shirt.
00:39:03 ►
Thank you.
00:39:02 ►
there in the back row in a red shirt.
00:39:04 ►
Thank you.
00:39:11 ►
Just about the fact that we are going through a major, major, major change,
00:39:14 ►
that it’s not one that happens every day or anything,
00:39:16 ►
or any century, or any millennium.
00:39:19 ►
No, we are going through a major, major shift that is like a major cycle of 26,000 years.
00:39:23 ►
And so it’s the night.
00:39:25 ►
So yes, time is precipitating.
00:39:27 ►
And we’re going through the photon
00:39:28 ►
and through darkness and through cleansing.
00:39:31 ►
And it is a major, major cleansing
00:39:33 ►
for planetary, for the earth,
00:39:36 ►
and ourselves, the consciousness, the awareness.
00:39:39 ►
And the self-destruction that patriarchy
00:39:41 ►
is accountable for,
00:39:43 ►
and the shakiness still about it, the lack of project and vision.
00:39:48 ►
And we are, you know, Omega, we are Pluto in Leo.
00:39:53 ►
We were the ones that wanted self-growth and self-development for everybody.
00:39:57 ►
And now we have Pluto in Sag.
00:40:00 ►
And we have to visualize, you know, we have to build the vision.
00:40:04 ►
That’s the opportunity of the major cleansing for the planet that it’s going through.
00:40:09 ►
And we are killing everything.
00:40:11 ►
I mean, it can’t be more absurd.
00:40:14 ►
So the vision has to be worldwide web-lized.
00:40:20 ►
You know, it has to be updated to this technology.
00:40:23 ►
But with all the knowledge of the 26,000 years,
00:40:27 ►
all the wide perspective,
00:40:30 ►
all the re-covering of history and power,
00:40:35 ►
self-empowerment,
00:40:38 ►
I think that’s what’s going on.
00:40:43 ►
Well, that’s great.
00:40:45 ►
I forgot about it, but that should have come up at some point,
00:40:51 ►
that besides everything else, the stars are very much in favor of this interpretation of this moment as special.
00:40:59 ►
And many people I know in the scientific religion don’t believe in astrology and consider it a humbug,
00:41:08 ►
but according to the magazines, when they take polls,
00:41:12 ►
there’s something like 80% of people who do take their natal chart seriously.
00:41:18 ►
So if you can give any credence to astrology just for example among the indicators
00:41:27 ►
then it’s a huge argument
00:41:32 ►
in favor of time having structure
00:41:35 ►
of world cultural evolution
00:41:39 ►
being more or less in resonance with overarching
00:41:43 ►
space-time pattern and so on.
00:41:47 ►
And if there is such a thing as a space-time pattern to events,
00:41:53 ►
then it’s greatly in our interest to know what it is,
00:41:56 ►
or to have at least a vague idea of what it is,
00:42:00 ►
in order to choose our best strategy in dealing with the chicken little demons which are real.
00:42:09 ►
So if, I mean, harmonic convergence was another thing of this sort where people were very skeptical.
00:42:16 ►
On the other hand, an amazing number of people did turn out.
00:42:19 ►
There was, I think quite recently, there was a call by an email to meditate at a certain time
00:42:25 ►
on a certain day that was maybe astrologically chosen. Do you remember? It was just a month
00:42:31 ►
or two ago. Well?
00:42:37 ►
But how long ago was that? It was pretty recently.
00:42:40 ►
A month or two.
00:42:41 ►
Just a month or two ago. So could it be that a lot of people thinking the same thing
00:42:46 ►
at the same time
00:42:48 ►
let us say
00:42:48 ►
a responsible vision for the future
00:42:51 ►
then the fact that they were sort of in tune
00:42:53 ►
that there was convergence of the dream
00:42:56 ►
give more power for the realization
00:42:57 ►
as the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi says
00:43:01 ►
in the so-called Maharishi effect
00:43:03 ►
the 10,000 people saying
00:43:04 ►
well if 10,000 people can reduce the crime rate in Providence, Rhode Island,
00:43:10 ►
I guess 30 million web browsing individuals worldwide sharing the same vision
00:43:19 ►
could probably pacify the whole of the Middle East.
00:43:23 ►
So it is important what fantasies for the future you have
00:43:29 ►
and in what way and how much you communicate with other people about them,
00:43:35 ►
and that’s, I think, kind of what we’re doing here.
00:43:38 ►
And I think that what we’ve seen here is a larger consensus, as it were,
00:43:44 ►
that what we’ve seen here is a larger consensus, as it were,
00:43:46 ►
than I had expected,
00:43:51 ►
feeling, as I do, an alien in a strange land coming from California to New York State
00:43:53 ►
and not knowing exactly what worldview to expect.
00:43:59 ►
I think that we have an amazing consensus here about the speciality of the moment
00:44:09 ►
and the challenge to us and the necessity to dream up a good future
00:44:14 ►
and do something at least to communicate with people in the hopes of materializing such a thing.
00:44:22 ►
Sounds good to me.
00:44:24 ►
sounds good to me and
00:44:24 ►
so that’s what we’ve evolved
00:44:28 ►
toward in an hour and a half
00:44:30 ►
or so of discussion
00:44:32 ►
all together in this
00:44:34 ►
town meeting
00:44:35 ►
on the world wide web
00:44:38 ►
and the millennium
00:44:39 ►
we have more
00:44:42 ►
I think
00:44:43 ►
is this right that we have kind of more of a consensus about the millennium
00:44:48 ►
than we do about the World Wide Web.
00:44:52 ►
I have a question.
00:44:54 ►
I had a question.
00:44:54 ►
This whole thing with the Asian-American movement,
00:44:57 ►
it’s kind of horrible,
00:44:58 ►
but it’s so nice that it happens in person.
00:45:02 ►
And how do we keep that going
00:45:04 ►
when everybody’s kind of off doing their own thing at their own computers in the flesh, in person, and how do we keep that going when everybody’s kind of off doing their own thing
00:45:06 ►
at their own computers, in the isolation?
00:45:10 ►
How do we keep that community in the flesh going
00:45:15 ►
at the same time?
00:45:20 ►
I found that email conversations
00:45:24 ►
work much better after you’ve met once,
00:45:27 ►
or maybe more than once.
00:45:29 ►
It just works better.
00:45:31 ►
And it never works as well as talking together,
00:45:33 ►
but there’s so many people we’re going to talk to that we can never meet.
00:45:36 ►
And the challenge is how well can you get into relationship with someone that you haven’t met
00:45:45 ►
through
00:45:46 ►
the internet alone.
00:45:52 ►
So
00:45:52 ►
00:45:55 ►
is
00:45:57 ►
very text oriented
00:45:59 ►
not of necessity but just that’s
00:46:02 ►
the habit that’s built around email
00:46:04 ►
whereas worldwide websites have a tendency to go multimedia right away at the start.
00:46:10 ►
And my hope is that the video telephone, video conferencing,
00:46:17 ►
or just the video telephone for two friends to have contact over long distance,
00:46:22 ►
maintaining a relationship over a long time,
00:46:25 ►
that the video telephone is much better than the telephone.
00:46:28 ►
The telephone is much better than email.
00:46:30 ►
The video telephone is much better than the telephone.
00:46:33 ►
And making some kind of compromise between video telephone and a worldwide website is a possibility.
00:46:44 ►
I mean, there is a convergence of all these communications means.
00:46:49 ►
And I think that this is something that we very much want from the Internet in the future,
00:46:56 ►
is improvement in the quality of the actual communication,
00:47:02 ►
which is sort of the bandwidth of the channel with colors, with smells, with video, and so on,
00:47:09 ►
so that the contact is more effective.
00:47:11 ►
It will never replace meeting in person,
00:47:14 ►
but meeting in person has become less and less frequent as you grow older
00:47:19 ►
and you don’t want to fly or your budget is restricted or something.
00:47:27 ►
want to fly or your budget is restricted or something. And I think we have to improve the telephone, essentially. We have to improve one-to-one contact on the Internet until it
00:47:34 ►
gets as close as it can be, 10% or whatever, of face-to-face contact or hot tub immersion
00:47:44 ►
or something.
00:47:47 ►
We should not go there.
00:47:49 ►
I think, personally, I’m fading fast to the point that I’m not sure there’s a consensus on this or not.
00:47:56 ►
You show no sign of fading fast.
00:48:01 ►
So, personally, I think we should close on the basis of lack of energy
00:48:06 ►
and with respect to
00:48:09 ►
tomorrow’s complicated agenda
00:48:11 ►
and I want to thank you so much for your
00:48:13 ►
excellent show
00:48:14 ►
thank you
00:48:17 ►
lots of fun
00:48:18 ►
I hope you were able to pick up on what Ralph was saying there
00:48:29 ►
about not trying to predict the future but to create it instead.
00:48:35 ►
And what an image she created of our species being at a point
00:48:39 ►
somewhere between the caterpillar and the butterfly.
00:48:43 ►
If you’ve got a few minutes right now,
00:48:45 ►
it really might be worth your time to go back and re-listen to that part
00:48:50 ►
where Ralph is urging us all to just sort of imagine,
00:48:55 ►
just imagine what if everything we do right now
00:48:59 ►
matters a thousand times more than it would matter in ordinary times.
00:49:05 ►
Just imagine that.
00:49:06 ►
What if every single action you and I take each day
00:49:09 ►
has a thousand times more import than would be the case in normal times?
00:49:16 ►
And actually, I think probably most of you already know
00:49:19 ►
that these are no ordinary times.
00:49:23 ►
And once you really grok that fact, my bet is that your life is going to become more impeccable each day.
00:49:29 ►
And before you know it, the way forward for you is probably going to be quite clear.
00:49:34 ►
So press on.
00:49:36 ►
As we just heard Terrence say, you know, this train is bound for glory.
00:49:42 ►
Or maybe not, you know.
00:49:49 ►
I think it’s really important for us all to keep in mind that, you know,
00:49:52 ►
we could also be completely wrong about all this stuff, you know.
00:49:55 ►
In the end, the joke could really be on us.
00:49:57 ►
But, hey, does that really matter? You know, the bottom line, I think, is that you’ve either got to make your own plan
00:50:03 ►
or follow someone else’s plan.
00:50:05 ►
Personally, I prefer to take chances with my own plan.
00:50:09 ►
My plan, of course, is based on a view of the world, how I see it works,
00:50:13 ►
that I think probably is most likely similar to the way you see the world work.
00:50:18 ►
I’ll tell you this for sure.
00:50:20 ►
You’ll probably have a lot more fun in this life as part of the tribe
00:50:24 ►
than you will as another cog in the big corporate machine.
00:50:28 ►
But, hey, it’s your life, you know.
00:50:30 ►
Take charge. Live it consciously.
00:50:33 ►
What have you got better to do, huh?
00:50:36 ►
Well, once again, it’s time to go.
00:50:39 ►
I want to thank Ralph and Terrence for all they’ve done for the tribe
00:50:44 ►
and all they really continue to do through their books and tapes like these.
00:50:48 ►
Thank you, too, to Jacques Cordell and Wells of Chateau Hayouk
00:50:52 ►
for the use of their music here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:50:56 ►
And a big thank you to all of you out there in cyberspace
00:51:00 ►
who are joining us here in the Psychedelic Salon.
00:51:04 ►
It’s nice to know you’re there.
00:51:06 ►
For now, this is Lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space.
00:51:11 ►
Be well, my friends.