005 - Psychedelics_ Therapy, Recreation & Politics

Program Notes

Guest speaker: Rick Doblin

A talk by Dr. Rick Doblin at Burning Man 2004.

Transcript

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Greetings from cyberdelic space. I’m Lorenzo and I’m your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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Our theme song, by the way, is El Alien from Chateau Hayouk’s CD titled Nature Loves Courage.

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A big thank you to all you guys at Chateau Hayouk for letting us use some of your music here in the Psychedelic Salon.

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We really, really appreciate it.

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Well, today we’ve got a real treat for you, I think.

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We’re going to hear from Rick Doblin, who, as most of you already know,

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is the founder and president of MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies,

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which has been supporting psychedelic research and medical marijuana research since 1986.

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I’m going to keep my introduction as brief as I can today because

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this program is going to run a little bit long, I’m afraid. It’s actually going to run, I guess,

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about an hour and 15 minutes or so, in case you’re wondering. But I believe that Rick’s message is

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not only very important, it’s also one of the best articulated statements of a vision for a

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psychedelic society that I’ve come across since the first time I read Terence McKenna’s fantastic essay titled Psychedelic Society.

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If you haven’t read that, by the way, I think you owe it to yourself to check it out.

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You can find it in several books, like Robert Forte’s great anthology in Theogens and the Future of Religion is a good place to find it.

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A lot of other good stuff in that book, too, by the way.

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The Nature of Religion is a good place to find it.

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A lot of other good stuff in that book, too, by the way.

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Now, in today’s program, while I’m sure you’re going to find Rick’s survey of the current state of psychedelic research really fascinating,

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it’s the first part of this talk that I hope you’ll pay the closest attention to.

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That’s where Rick explains why we should care about psychedelics.

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Okay, I know you think you know why you use these sacred medicines,

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but I suspect that after hearing Rick’s take

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on this important topic,

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you’re going to come away with

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probably a much greater dedication

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to our sacred medicines

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than you’ve ever had before.

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When it comes to caring about these substances,

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Rick is definitely in the vanguard.

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For example, how many other people do you know

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who was instrumental in hiring a lawyer to represent a drug?

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Not a person.

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This lawyer represented a drug, and it had never been done before.

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That’s just the kind of challenge that Rick loves.

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In this presentation, he’s going to tell that story and several others that are not only entertaining,

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but have strong points to make as well,

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not only entertaining but have strong points to make as well,

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such as how MAPS had helped Peter Jennings break the story on an ABC special that MTV and Oprah and a whole host of others were actually lying

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when they tried to convince parents that MDMA burned holes in their kids’ brains.

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In case you’re not into the chemical soup names, MDMA is what ecstasy is supposed to be if it’s pure.

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And it does not cause holes to form in your brain. Get over it. Get the truth. Go to

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arrowid.org, E-R-O-W-I-D.org. Or go to maps.org, M-A-P-S.org. And find out the real facts, you know,

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if you’re still living in the fantasy world that the government’s trying to brainwash you with.

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But hey, Rick can tell this story a lot better than I can,

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so let’s listen to the talk that Rick Doblin gave as one of the Palenque Nortri lectures at Burning Man in 2004.

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His talk is titled, Psychedelics and Marijuana, Therapy, Recreation, and Politics.

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Now here’s Rick

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and without that

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I think there’s a really good chance

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that the human species won’t make it

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the planet will get destroyed

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but there is a tremendous amount of hope

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and we do have these technologies

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and for many of us

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they have worked in our individual lives

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so what

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what has

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motivated me

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has in large part been

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this psychedelic vision

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this in some sense

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the response to the holocaust

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I grew up Jewish

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distant relatives who were killed

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this idea of scapegoating

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this idea that wepegoating,

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this idea that we can exterminate some group and somehow that will purify the world,

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that these kind of cultural insanities

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can persist and can spread,

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that there has to be some powerful force

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that gets down into the psyche

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that works as somehow releasing

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these prejudices and helping people

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to accept their shadows

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and work further. And I think

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it can come from art,

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it can come from meditation, it can come

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from all sorts of different ways, but

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I think psychedelics is the royal road to

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the unconscious. Freud said that about dreams.

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I think that about psychedelics.

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And so for me personally, I think psychedelics

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is one of the crucial leverage points

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to work on

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to bring about a better world.

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And I think one of the reasons

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that our culture has so

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suppressed the psychedelics is

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because there’s a recognition that these psychedelics

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have potential.

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So when we talk about culture wars,

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it’s going right now with the election,

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with refighting the Vietnam War,

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a lot of the culture wars

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have to do with

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this sort of hippie generation

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motivated by psychedelics

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that had this vision

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and that was able to use it

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to promote

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opposition to the Vietnam War,

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the environmental movement,

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feminism.

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So it’s when psychedelics went right

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that caused the problems.

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The drug warriors will tell you

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it’s when psychedelics went wrong

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and people jumped out of windows,

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that’s what we got to stop.

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But it’s really, I think,

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the major threat is from when psychedelics went right

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and people transcended the kind of education

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that they got when they were young

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and started asking other questions.

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So that’s my prelude, why we should care.

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Now, that’s the global big vision,

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and it’s sort of important to keep that

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because then we’re going to now descend into minute details.

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So the opportunities to try to bring back psychedelics

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are starting an incredibly small

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and in some senses trivial project

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with very limited patient populations,

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single drugs,

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given under highly restricted circumstances.

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So what I’d like to do now

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is give you a sense of where we are

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in this historical moment

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with bringing psychedelics back.

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The psychedelic renaissance is just beginning.

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It has already started.

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We have a situation where

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from the 40s, 50s, 60s,

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with the rise initially of LSD in 43,

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and development of psilocybin later in the 50s,

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we had this flourishing of research.

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Most of it was focused on

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how these drugs can affect consciousness

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affect the mind, how they affect psychotherapy

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the whole undercurrent was the CIA and the mind control

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research funded studies using the same tools

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for weapons

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so what that right now gets us to say

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is that these are just tools

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and the important thing is the relationship that we establish

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with them. There’s nothing intrinsically

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healing about a psychedelic

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drug. Certain

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cultures want to call peyote

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a sacrament or they want to call ayahuasca

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the drink of the gods or

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various of these things and I think that

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that’s in some sense a

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misunderstanding. The word entheogen

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has been created to develop to replace psychedelics or hallucinogens.

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Entheogen meaning the God within.

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And I think that that’s also a word

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that I prefer not to use

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because it implies,

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just as hallucinogen implies

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these drugs take you away from reality,

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entheogen implies these drugs

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take you to a religious understanding.

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And it’s more complex than that.

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These are simply tools.

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And how we use them is really the crucial thing.

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There’s no inherent superiority in my view if it grows from a plant or if it’s invented in a laboratory.

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Others have different views on this.

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But I think that that dichotomy really doesn’t hold up.

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And so it’s really how we use these things.

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And once the psychedelic drugs were really flourishing

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in the 50s and 60s,

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comes the culture war,

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comes the changes people try to put into place,

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comes the counter-reaction.

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We have Nixon saying that Timothy Leary

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is the most dangerous person in America.

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And the reason is because of the tools of consciousness.

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But I also think that Timothy Leary made one fundamental mistake, which was this whole understanding

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of counterculture. And it’s easy here at Bergman to think of ourselves as part of a

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counterculture, that we have a different way of life, a different openness to sexuality,

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a different openness to drugs. And I think that self-defining ourselves

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as a counterculture

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generates us and them, generates

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repression, and our task is

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really to integrate into the

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mainstream culture that we

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have to really become

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part of. We never

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were alienated from. There is

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no away. You can’t find an

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island. That was the theme of all Huxley’s Book Islands. You can’t find an island. That was the theme of Alts Huxley’s book, Island.

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You can’t build your island paradise somewhere

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and assume that you’ll stay there

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unimpeded by the rest of the world.

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The world has gotten too small.

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So I think it’s really incumbent upon us

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not to self-identify as the counterculture,

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but to really think of it as maybe

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an advanced scout for the main culture.

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And that our mission as an advanced scout

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is to bring back the information,

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the things that we’ve experimented with,

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and then try to bring the culture along.

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And so for us, for psychedelics,

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it’s trying to get government permission

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to do various psychedelic studies

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that will bring these states of consciousness

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back into general

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accessibility.

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We’re rare in cultures where historical anomaly and that we don’t really value highly or even

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at all this altered states of consciousness, very Western, very rational, very anti-mystical,

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and I think that that’s really unbalanced.

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So part of bringing psychedelics back is an attempt to address that balance.

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Where we are at is from the late 60s, early 70s, the FDA in the United States and the

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United States through the international drug control treaties has managed to impose a global

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system of drug control that has completely, from 1970-71 to 1990,

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almost entirely shut down

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all human experimentational psychedelics.

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As we’re in city here today,

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2004,

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there’s not one single study

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anywhere in the world

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in which LSD is being given legally to humans.

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It’s absolutely…

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When they take humans to apply, do they. It’s absolutely… Well, yes, there is some testing going on

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with animals with LSD

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looking at which receptor sites are activated.

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So there are some animal studies.

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And just to not avoid controversy,

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I’d like to say that I think that animal studies

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can be completely justified,

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and that the movement against animal research

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is really misguided,

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and that we need to approach animal research

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respectfully,

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honor the animals that we’re killing,

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accept the fact that there are divergences

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between animals and humans,

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and so MAPS has in the past

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funded animal research.

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We try to avoid it wherever possible.

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Only when it’s necessary by government regulation will we do it.

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But I think that there is some validity to animal studies.

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But what we really need is human studies into benefits.

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If we look at MDMA, which is a good example,

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right now, if you go to Medline,

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which lists scientific journals all over the world, the top ones that are peer-reviewed, if you put in MDMA, which lists scientific journals all over the world,

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the top ones that are peer-reviewed, put in MDMA, you’ll get over 1,800 papers.

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There’s not a single paper in there about a controlled study of the therapeutic use of MDMA.

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There’s over $100 million has been spent on all of these studies.

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NASA’s spent so far about $130,000 reviewing all of these studies.

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And so by spending that money reviewing this,

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and our reviews are off of the MAPS website, we’ve submitted them to the FDA,

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we have captured over $100 million worth of research that we don’t need to spend

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into the risks of these drugs.

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So it’s incumbent upon us then to focus on trying to do the benefits

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and look at benefit risks in the patient populations that we’re

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looking at. So from

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1984, when I first

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heard about IndiumA in 1982,

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and it seemed to me like

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such a tremendous discovery, because

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I knew the history of LSD. I sort of

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woke up to LSD in the early

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70s when the research was being shut down.

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I early on

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believed that if you took LSD,

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that somehow or other you were permanently crazy

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after just one dose.

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And a friend of mine,

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and there is some truth to it,

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a friend of mine in my high school Russian class,

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the rumor was that he had taken LSD.

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And so I would be always looking at him

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out of the corner of my eye like,

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when was he going to betray this fundamental insanity

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that was going to doom him for the rest of his life?

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And I never really thought,

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but I did notice that he was reading

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One Floor Over the Cuckoo’s Nest by Ken Kesey.

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And I love to read,

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and he suggested that I read that book.

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And after I read it,

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I told him how wonderful it was,

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and he told me that some portions of it had been written while the author was under the influence of LSD. I said,

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I couldn’t believe it. That told me that I had been fed a bunch of lies, that there is

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something beyond just one dose equals insanity in LSD. And so once that started percolating

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in my mind and I started waking up to it, I noticed the research

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was being shut down.

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So I felt like I missed this golden era.

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And I approached my early OSD experiences with this high dose psychedelic-discal experience.

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I was going to purify myself.

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I also saw that the counterculture had carried within it certain strains that were self-destructive,

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counterproductive, sexist, hierarchical,

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various things that were

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we were trying to

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put a new world into practice, but we were using

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old world psyches to do it, and it wasn’t

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completely working. So that meant

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to me the inner exploration,

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the inner purification, and so

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I tried to do a fair amount of high-dose

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LSD work

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with the fundamental misconception there

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that you could do all the work in the altered state.

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And so I would continually try to do higher and higher doses

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and trying to go deeper and deeper

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and it would get me more and more scared

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and more and more frozen and unable to really go up.

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And then I had this recognition

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that you really have to integrate.

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And that’s where we’re at now.

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These drugs don’t do it by themselves.

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Leary used to say that if you

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take LSD, you become enlightened, and then you’re

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part of this whole group that knows more than

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everybody else. And that’s, of course,

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not actually true. And it’s the integration work

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that’s harder and more difficult than

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the actual experience itself. And whether

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we heard the other day about Houston

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Smith, difference between a religious experience

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and a religious life.

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That’s the integration piece.

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So for me it led to dropping out of college for

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10 years and working on

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getting grounded, working on tripping,

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studying with Stan Croft, getting into

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the literature, and trying to really

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dedicate myself to this.

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And then I found MDMA

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in 1982. And there

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was a situation that it was still legal.

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So we had this opportunity

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to do what I thought

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had been done in the 60s

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but a little bit smarter.

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So with the recognition

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that the government crackdown

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was inevitably going to come.

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So I also,

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as soon as I discovered MDMA,

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I also realized,

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unbeknownst to me,

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that there was this psychedelic underground

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of therapists

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who had continued

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to work with psychedelics, continued to risk

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their freedom, continued to work with

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patients because they thought that really offered

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opportunities to heal that they didn’t have otherwise.

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And that the psychedelic

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underground had continued

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and at that point was hundreds and

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thousands of people working with

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MDMA all over the country, all over the world.

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And so I was able to, in my idealistic way, there was a book by the Assistant Secretary

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General of the United Nations that was called New Genesis, Shaping the Global Spirituality.

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And so I decided that I would write a letter to the Assistant Secretary General of the

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United Nations and say, in your book, you really talk about this global spirituality,

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how it’s really necessary,

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and yet, you don’t mention psychedelics at all in the book,

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and every new way of killing the military

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gets virtually unlimited money to develop,

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but psychedelics, at least in theory,

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can produce these consciousness changes

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that can lead towards peace,

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so would you help?

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So Robert Mueller, who was the Assistant Secretary General, actually wrote me

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back and said, yes, I will help.

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I do agree with what you said.

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And here’s a list of people who are bunks and rabbis

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that I would like to have you

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speak with. And I read between the lines

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and said, send them MDMA.

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Which I did.

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Because it was legal. We had all these opportunities.

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We were sending MDMA into Russia

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working with Gorbachev’s people

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in Glastonbury

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we sent into Capitol Hill

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right into the Senate office building

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we blanketed the place

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as much as we could

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Harvard, leaders of psychiatry

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and so we were prepared

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once the crackdown came

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so we actually did a secret

00:17:26 ►

safety study with MDMA in 84, decided not to release it because the information would

00:17:31 ►

be a clue to the government that they should crack down. And so we waited until the government

00:17:36 ►

acted first, which they did just a few months later. Then we surfaced. I went to Washington

00:17:41 ►

and asked for a DEA administrative law judge hearing, which the judge granted.

00:17:50 ►

That started the first lawsuit that I was ever involved with against the government,

00:17:52 ►

which on the factual level, we won.

00:17:56 ►

The judge actually said MDMA should be in Schedule 3.

00:17:58 ►

Doctors should still be able to prescribe it.

00:18:01 ►

It should be illegal for recreational use, but it should be widely available in therapeutic use.

00:18:04 ►

The head of the DEA said, forget this.

00:18:06 ►

This is just a recommendation.

00:18:08 ►

I don’t have to take it.

00:18:09 ►

And fuck you.

00:18:11 ►

And so he put it in Schedule 1.

00:18:13 ►

We sued him because his rationale wasn’t right.

00:18:15 ►

We won in the Court of Appeals.

00:18:17 ►

Then he found another way to put it back in.

00:18:19 ►

So it became clear then that our only route through was the work of the FDA.

00:18:26 ►

And when we think about the government, it’s easy to think about the government as not us, monolithic, single opinion, opposition.

00:18:36 ►

And it’s not that way.

00:18:37 ►

So we know that we’ve got three branches of power.

00:18:39 ►

The U.S. government is multiple sources of power competing against each other, fighting against each other.

00:18:43 ►

US government is multiple sources of power competing against each other, fighting against each other.

00:18:44 ►

And so it’s important, again, as not identifying as counterculture, thinking about which parts

00:18:49 ►

of the government can we work with.

00:18:52 ►

One part was the IRS.

00:18:54 ►

Ironically, the IRS lets people create non-profit organizations where you can give people tax

00:18:59 ►

deductions for giving you money to do stuff that the government would rather you not do.

00:19:03 ►

for giving you money to do stuff that the government would rather you not do.

00:19:09 ►

And so, to be able to think that that was a possibility,

00:19:12 ►

so I thought, yes, so I was able to create a non-profit.

00:19:19 ►

And then, also, from that, we started recognizing that the Food and Drug Administration is likely to be our key ally.

00:19:22 ►

Not because they’re interested in psychedelics, not because they’re interested in marijuana,

00:19:26 ►

but because they’re interested in science,

00:19:28 ►

more so than ideology.

00:19:30 ►

And that is still true today.

00:19:32 ►

The naturalists on drug abuse,

00:19:34 ►

the drug czars, officer, DEA,

00:19:36 ►

science is not their highest priority.

00:19:38 ►

Repression is their highest priority.

00:19:41 ►

And they will twist science in the service of repression.

00:19:44 ►

The FDA, however, is

00:19:46 ►

comfortable with

00:19:47 ►

drugs that have dual

00:19:49 ►

uses. That they can be

00:19:52 ►

recreational drugs, drugs of abuse, but also

00:19:54 ►

in certain circumstances, how they’re used

00:19:56 ►

have medical uses. And so

00:19:57 ►

our strategy is fundamentally based

00:20:00 ►

on working with the FDA

00:20:01 ►

and assuming that they will still

00:20:04 ►

prioritize science over politics.

00:20:06 ►

And there’s been one worrisome sign,

00:20:09 ►

which is in female reproductive rights.

00:20:11 ►

That’s where the religious right and the Bush administration

00:20:13 ►

are really trying to clamp down as much as they can on the FDA.

00:20:17 ►

So there was a drug, Plan B, it was for a contraceptive drug.

00:20:22 ►

The day after, woman has had sex,

00:20:25 ►

you take the pill and you won’t get pregnant.

00:20:29 ►

And the advisory committee recommended that be approved.

00:20:31 ►

The FDA said no.

00:20:33 ►

So that’s a little bit of a worrisome sign

00:20:36 ►

that politics is now really getting down,

00:20:39 ►

reaching down into the FDA.

00:20:40 ►

But it hasn’t reached all the way down.

00:20:42 ►

They operate under precedent.

00:20:43 ►

So still at the moment,

00:20:44 ►

the FDA. But it hasn’t reached all the way down the operating percentage. So still at the moment, the FDA strategy

00:20:45 ►

makes sense and is worth

00:20:47 ►

investing time, energy, and millions of dollars

00:20:50 ►

as a wedge to open the door.

00:20:53 ►

Now,

00:20:54 ►

a few people can make a difference

00:20:56 ►

also. So in

00:20:57 ►

1989

00:20:59 ►

and 1990,

00:21:01 ►

the staff at the FDA that

00:21:03 ►

controlled the regulation of Schedule I drugs,

00:21:06 ►

psychedelics and marijuana, shift over.

00:21:08 ►

And it was a new group

00:21:10 ►

of people who

00:21:12 ►

were given the responsibility.

00:21:14 ►

And part of my PhD dissertation

00:21:16 ►

at the Kennedy School of Government was on how this happened

00:21:18 ►

and who these people were.

00:21:20 ►

And so I interviewed them up and down the FDA

00:21:22 ►

hierarchy, and it turns out that they were looking

00:21:24 ►

to try to expedite new ways to speed drugs through the FDA system without hiring new people.

00:21:30 ►

They had to have some actual drugs to work with to demonstrate as models.

00:21:36 ►

Nobody was really doing much with Schedule 1 drugs and the group that was reviewing them

00:21:40 ►

didn’t really like them that much so they gave them up as well as some other drug categories

00:21:44 ►

to this new division.

00:21:46 ►

And that was, so they didn’t

00:21:48 ►

really want to open the door

00:21:50 ►

explicitly to psychedelics, but they

00:21:52 ►

somehow gave control over psychedelics

00:21:54 ►

and marijuana to this group of people.

00:21:56 ►

And starting in 1990,

00:21:58 ►

Rick Strosten got permission

00:22:00 ►

for a study with DMT.

00:22:02 ►

That was the first psychedelic research in over 20 years,

00:22:04 ►

where psychedelics were given to humans.

00:22:07 ►

Then in 92, we got permission

00:22:08 ►

for the first MDMA study,

00:22:10 ►

which was a safety study

00:22:11 ►

that Charlie Grove did at UCLA.

00:22:14 ►

And that was a bargain with the FDA

00:22:16 ►

because we really didn’t want to

00:22:18 ►

work with safety studies

00:22:20 ►

because millions of people

00:22:21 ►

had taken MDMA.

00:22:22 ►

Hundreds of thousands of therapists

00:22:23 ►

had used it.

00:22:24 ►

We knew how to work with it, we knew

00:22:25 ►

it was safe, but what the FDA said

00:22:27 ►

is that we don’t care about the fact

00:22:29 ►

that this drug is upside down

00:22:31 ►

the way drugs are normally developed. They’re normally developed

00:22:33 ►

first in animals, well first

00:22:35 ►

in laboratories, then you get them in animals, then you get

00:22:37 ►

a few thousand people

00:22:39 ►

and you get data and then they release it and then millions

00:22:41 ►

of people get it and then you discover that

00:22:43 ►

one in a hundred thousand died from this or that

00:22:45 ►

and that’s how drugs get developed and that’s how we learn

00:22:48 ►

about their risks. But with marijuana

00:22:50 ►

with drugs like MDMA, millions

00:22:52 ►

of people are using them. We already know

00:22:53 ►

the one in a million risk of somebody

00:22:56 ►

overheating at a rate and dying

00:22:57 ►

from hyperthermia or the two in a

00:23:00 ►

million risk, these are just estimates,

00:23:02 ►

but from hyponatremia, drinking

00:23:04 ►

too much water. So we already know that,

00:23:06 ►

but the FDA said, here’s the deal,

00:23:08 ►

you’ve got to, we’ll let you take

00:23:10 ►

this drug through the FDA, but you have to look at it

00:23:12 ►

like any other drug, which means

00:23:13 ►

you have to assume you know nothing,

00:23:16 ►

you have to prove everything to us,

00:23:18 ►

and you have to start from the very beginning.

00:23:20 ►

So, I said, sure,

00:23:22 ►

we’ll do that, that’s our ticket,

00:23:24 ►

and they said, in principle, we will let you do what you want to do,

00:23:26 ►

which is a study in end-stage cancer patients with 12 months or less to live with pain and anxiety.

00:23:34 ►

So I said, do your safety studies first, and then we’ll let you do that study.

00:23:38 ►

So a whole series of safety studies were done through the 90s.

00:23:42 ►

And after 20 years of work, starting in 84, in 2004,

00:23:47 ►

Michael Minhofer and Annie Minhofer over there were able to get permission

00:23:52 ►

for a MAP-sponsored study of the therapeutic use of MDMA

00:23:56 ►

in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder.

00:24:07 ►

And when Michael first started talking to me about it,

00:24:08 ►

his first thing was,

00:24:10 ►

I want to do work with psychedelics.

00:24:12 ►

What country do you think it would be good to do it in?

00:24:14 ►

Where can we set up an offshore clinic?

00:24:16 ►

How can we do it? And my response was,

00:24:17 ►

we’ve got to do it here in the United States.

00:24:19 ►

Let’s try here.

00:24:20 ►

And I think it can be done.

00:24:21 ►

So it turned out to be way harder than we thought,

00:24:24 ►

way slower, but

00:24:25 ►

we now have one study

00:24:27 ►

in the world where MDMA is

00:24:29 ►

being used in a patient population.

00:24:32 ►

We have initially a study in

00:24:33 ►

Spain, which was approved a few years before

00:24:35 ►

that, with women survivors of

00:24:37 ►

sexual assault with MDMA.

00:24:39 ►

And that study was going really pretty well

00:24:42 ►

and we had a series of articles

00:24:43 ►

in the media and the Spanish anti-drug authority intimidated the hospital to shut the study down.

00:24:50 ►

So in Spain, where they have socialized medicine, the anti-drug people and the medical people are more under the same organization.

00:24:57 ►

So they have more levers, the anti-drug people.

00:24:59 ►

They couldn’t do that in the United States.

00:25:01 ►

We’ve had a series of other developments.

00:25:05 ►

Now, just about six months ago

00:25:07 ►

at UCLA, Charlie Grove has gotten

00:25:09 ►

permission for a study of

00:25:11 ►

psilocybin in the treatment of

00:25:13 ►

advanced cancer patients with

00:25:15 ►

pain and anxiety.

00:25:17 ►

And then about five

00:25:19 ►

years ago, the first therapy

00:25:21 ►

study was with psilocybin

00:25:23 ►

in the treatment of obsessive compulsive disorder.

00:25:26 ►

And that’s at the University of Arizona, Tucson.

00:25:28 ►

So in a way, we talked

00:25:29 ►

Thursday about Ibogaine and how Ibogaine

00:25:31 ►

is an addiction interrupter.

00:25:34 ►

Certain kind of compulsive behavior patterns,

00:25:36 ►

psilocybin can help interrupt.

00:25:39 ►

And

00:25:39 ►

it was being promoted by

00:25:42 ►

the doctors as

00:25:43 ►

pharmacological treatment.

00:25:46 ►

They weren’t really talking about psilocybin therapy.

00:25:48 ►

They were just saying there are certain receptor sites.

00:25:50 ►

You hit them with psilocybin, it breaks these obsessive patterns.

00:25:53 ►

And the government saw that as less threatening than the altered state.

00:25:56 ►

That’s what we’re really going for.

00:25:58 ►

That’s where the healing comes from.

00:25:59 ►

So that was our first therapy study.

00:26:01 ►

So now we have three studies.

00:26:04 ►

And we’re on the verge with John Halpern,

00:26:07 ►

who’s right there, who’s at Harvard Medical School.

00:26:10 ►

The ultimate symbol, I think, of transformation,

00:26:14 ►

of really the Renaissance being back,

00:26:16 ►

is we look back at Harvard.

00:26:19 ►

Many people think of the whole psychedelic revolution

00:26:22 ►

as going off the track with Timothy Lear.

00:26:25 ►

And he got kicked out of Harvard in 1963.

00:26:28 ►

A student of his, Walter Pankey,

00:26:30 ►

who did the famous Good Friday experiment,

00:26:32 ►

looking at the use of psilocybin versus placebo

00:26:35 ►

to produce religious experience,

00:26:37 ►

whether psychedelic could produce genuine mystical experience,

00:26:40 ►

proved that it did.

00:26:41 ►

Walter Pankey stayed at Harvard until 1965.

00:26:44 ►

So like the proverbial Jews in the desert wandering for 40 years,

00:26:48 ►

we have been locked out of the labs at Harvard for 39 years.

00:26:53 ►

And we have got a project that’s been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board at McLean Hospital at Harvard twice,

00:26:59 ►

and they’re waiting for a report from an oncologist, but they’ve given us provisional approval for this study.

00:27:02 ►

They’re waiting for a report from an oncologist,

00:27:04 ►

but they’ve given us provisional approval for this study.

00:27:07 ►

So I think that in 2005,

00:27:11 ►

we will be able to start a study looking at advanced cancer patients,

00:27:13 ►

12 months or less,

00:27:13 ►

who live with MDMA.

00:27:15 ►

And that is really going to be the mark

00:27:17 ►

of the new era being here.

00:27:20 ►

And we can screw it up,

00:27:22 ►

but I don’t think that we will.

00:27:24 ►

And that is the

00:27:25 ►

sort of grand slam home run to get this

00:27:28 ►

study started at Harvard.

00:27:30 ►

Now, around the world,

00:27:31 ►

there are

00:27:32 ►

projects that are not,

00:27:36 ►

they’re somewhat similar.

00:27:37 ►

So we have, you know, ayahuasca is being

00:27:39 ►

studied in Peru for the treatment of addiction.

00:27:42 ►

We have ayahuasca being studied

00:27:44 ►

also in the Netherlands. Other psychedelics are being studied. Ibog the treatment of addiction. We have ayahuasca being studied also in the Netherlands.

00:27:46 ►

Other psychedelics are being studied.

00:27:48 ►

Ibogaine is being used.

00:27:50 ►

Ayahuasca is being used for religious experiences.

00:27:53 ►

There’s actually a study looking at psilocybin now

00:27:56 ►

for religious experience

00:27:57 ►

at a prestigious university in the United States

00:28:01 ►

where a study has been approved

00:28:02 ►

looking at spiritual use of psilocybin.

00:28:07 ►

But there’s not that much happening around the world. For a long time, when we were blocked from the US, really we had an international strategy

00:28:12 ►

to try to start research.

00:28:13 ►

We were working with the ex-chief psychiatrist of the Israeli Defense Forces to try to start

00:28:19 ►

a study in Israel with MDMA for post-traumatic stress. The idea there is to eventually lead to Palestinian Jewish raves and

00:28:28 ►

sound good.

00:28:29 ►

Get the culture of life. I think

00:28:32 ►

really it’s not for me a joke. It’s this

00:28:34 ►

idea that the culture of death, which is what

00:28:36 ►

they enshrined there,

00:28:37 ►

what’s more powerful than the culture of death?

00:28:40 ►

The culture of life and celebration.

00:28:42 ►

The dance we see out here on the

00:28:43 ►

flight. Those things have the power

00:28:46 ►

for the young people to

00:28:48 ►

make them really

00:28:49 ►

move through barriers.

00:28:52 ►

And we also know that in northern England,

00:28:54 ►

when MDMA was first starting hitting

00:28:56 ►

in England, that the rapes

00:28:58 ►

were the only places where the Catholic and Protestant

00:29:00 ►

kids got together.

00:29:02 ►

And across those boundaries,

00:29:03 ►

the rape movements are pretty much interracial, sexually open.

00:29:08 ►

In the U.S., there’s just a lot of evidence that MDMA,

00:29:13 ►

in these celebratory contexts,

00:29:15 ►

can really bring about certain kinds of crossing boundaries

00:29:21 ►

and peace that wasn’t there before.

00:29:22 ►

So, again, I want to say that focusing MAPS’s work politically

00:29:27 ►

mostly on medical research,

00:29:30 ►

but that there are these larger implications

00:29:33 ►

and that’s where we’re headed in a way.

00:29:36 ►

So we have this toehold into therapeutic use.

00:29:40 ►

Now, pharmaceutical companies will tell you

00:29:43 ►

that it costs $800 million per drug to get

00:29:47 ►

it approved through the FDA.

00:29:49 ►

So how can we possibly think that we will be able to get MDMA through the FDA?

00:29:54 ►

Where are we going to come up with $800 million?

00:29:57 ►

Well, another part of my dissertation was looking at where this number comes from.

00:30:02 ►

So the first thing to know is that more than half of this number comes from

00:30:06 ►

money that the pharmaceutical companies would have made

00:30:09 ►

if they would have put the money and the research into the bank

00:30:11 ►

and earned 11% interest per year annualized.

00:30:16 ►

That’s their opportunity cost.

00:30:19 ►

So they want the drugs to cost,

00:30:21 ►

they want people to think the drugs cost $800 million

00:30:24 ►

so they can charge a lot of money

00:30:25 ►

for these drugs.

00:30:26 ►

But they don’t.

00:30:27 ►

Now the other thing is that they investigate hundreds of drugs to get one or two approved

00:30:33 ►

by the FDA.

00:30:35 ►

So they amortize the cost of all the failures into the costs, the ones that make it through.

00:30:42 ►

So then you get back down, you get back down, and then they do all this work into the risks.

00:30:46 ►

So I’ve already mentioned that we have over $100 million

00:30:49 ►

that’s been spent by governments over the world

00:30:51 ►

about what’s wrong with MDMA.

00:30:54 ►

So here, again, it’s taking the demonization of MDMA,

00:30:57 ►

turning it to our advantage,

00:30:58 ►

studying everything about the risks,

00:31:00 ►

and we’ve now captured over $100 million.

00:31:02 ►

So it comes down to the fact that if we do clinical

00:31:06 ►

trials looking at patient

00:31:07 ►

populations that would have

00:31:10 ►

roughly 600 patients

00:31:12 ►

in total, which other

00:31:14 ►

drugs have been approved for that, that

00:31:16 ►

we’re somewhere like $5-7 million

00:31:17 ►

to get MDMA

00:31:19 ►

through the system in 5-7

00:31:22 ►

years.

00:31:24 ►

So I think it’s within our grasp.

00:31:26 ►

We want to talk about medical marijuana.

00:31:28 ►

The people who have spent money on medical marijuana initiatives,

00:31:32 ►

Peter Lewis, George Soros, and others,

00:31:34 ►

have spent about $12 million so far since 1996

00:31:38 ►

when California passed Prop 215.

00:31:41 ►

That’s a vast waste of social resources.

00:31:44 ►

If we could have put that money into

00:31:45 ►

medical marijuana research,

00:31:47 ►

we’d have marijuana approved today as medicine.

00:31:50 ►

So the money is out there.

00:31:52 ►

This year, Peter Lewis is

00:31:53 ►

investing $7 million into

00:31:55 ►

Marijuana Policy Project and

00:31:57 ►

various initiative campaigns.

00:31:59 ►

He gave us $250,000 for

00:32:01 ►

MDMA. George Soros

00:32:03 ►

doesn’t like psychedelics.

00:32:05 ►

He’s comfortable with marijuana, so he’s not a source.

00:32:07 ►

But there are resources in this community among us.

00:32:11 ►

We can make it.

00:32:13 ►

The money is not the obstacle.

00:32:15 ►

It’s not easy to raise, but the money is not the obstacle.

00:32:18 ►

The other thing is that once a drug is approved,

00:32:23 ►

the FDA protects what’s called off-label prescription,

00:32:28 ►

which means that the drug is approved for one thing,

00:32:30 ►

but the practice of medicine requires physicians

00:32:34 ►

to be able to prescribe the drug for anything else that they want.

00:32:38 ►

The government bylaw cannot say,

00:32:41 ►

MDMA approved for post-traumatic stress disorder

00:32:43 ►

cannot be used in treating anxiety associated

00:32:46 ►

with depression

00:32:46 ►

and about 40-50%

00:32:50 ►

of drugs currently prescribed today are

00:32:51 ►

prescribed off label

00:32:53 ►

most of that is in different doses, different

00:32:55 ►

schedules, but a lot of that

00:32:57 ►

is for different indications

00:32:58 ►

so that the FDA does have

00:33:01 ►

lots of different regulatory mechanisms

00:33:03 ►

so in order to sort of think like the FDA,

00:33:08 ►

and it was actually a pleasure

00:33:09 ►

since I’m so used to trying to get out from under rules,

00:33:12 ►

I’m so used to trying to find loopholes,

00:33:14 ►

to try to break the law and not get to jail,

00:33:17 ►

to try to figure out how to do what mass needs to do.

00:33:21 ►

I’m so good at sort of looking for loopholes

00:33:23 ►

that I put on the other side and I try to

00:33:26 ►

become an authoritarian trying to

00:33:28 ►

clamp down on psychedelic research

00:33:30 ►

and psychedelic medical use and become

00:33:32 ►

better than the DEA because I know

00:33:34 ►

psychedelics better than they do. How can we

00:33:35 ►

limit psychedelics to

00:33:38 ►

very specific circumstances

00:33:40 ►

so that the government is not scared that

00:33:42 ►

medical use is the same as

00:33:44 ►

legalization? And that is their concern that medical use is the same as legalization.

00:33:47 ►

And that is their concern about medical marijuana.

00:33:49 ►

And it’s not an inappropriate concern.

00:33:53 ►

When you look at California, you look at the kind of reasons people can get marijuana for.

00:33:56 ►

Practically anybody can get marijuana for practically anything.

00:33:59 ►

And medical use is pretty similar to legalization.

00:34:04 ►

So I wanted to make it so that that wasn’t the case with psychedelics.

00:34:05 ►

And one advantage, the one crucial difference with psychedelics is that the model that we

00:34:10 ►

talk about is that psychedelics are administered under supervision by people who know about

00:34:15 ►

psychedelics.

00:34:16 ►

They’re not take home drugs.

00:34:17 ►

Marijuana is a take home drug.

00:34:19 ►

You get it, you use it at home, you don’t have to have the doctor there for six hours

00:34:24 ►

helping you the whole time you’re stoned

00:34:26 ►

and waiting until you’re done.

00:34:28 ►

It’s not necessary.

00:34:29 ►

So that’s the clue right there.

00:34:32 ►

It’s the difference between a take-home drug

00:34:33 ►

and a drug that needs to be given under supervision.

00:34:35 ►

And what that then leads to is the psychedelic clinic model

00:34:40 ►

where psychedelics are to be prescribed

00:34:43 ►

only in certain facilities

00:34:45 ►

that meet certain requirements

00:34:47 ►

for staffing, for

00:34:49 ►

a bathroom next to each treatment room,

00:34:51 ►

where you don’t have to go out in the open to get to the bathroom.

00:34:54 ►

There are

00:34:54 ►

all sorts of regulations on

00:34:57 ►

the facility itself,

00:34:59 ►

and then regulations on

00:35:01 ►

who can prescribe it.

00:35:04 ►

Doctors, maybe any doctor. Right now, most

00:35:08 ►

of the, I think it’s most of the prescriptions for Zoloft and Hassa are not coming from psychiatrists.

00:35:16 ►

They’re coming from interns, former practitioners who have heard about people having depression

00:35:21 ►

using these drugs. So I think with the psychedelics,

00:35:25 ►

that their use should be limited,

00:35:27 ►

not just to psychiatrists,

00:35:29 ►

but even to a more narrow class of psychiatrists

00:35:32 ►

who’ve been through special psychedelic psychotherapy training,

00:35:36 ►

which it’s then incumbent upon us to,

00:35:40 ►

as the researchers, develop these training programs

00:35:42 ►

to certify who’s going to be able to do it

00:35:45 ►

and to do it in a certain way.

00:35:47 ►

So that when you do that,

00:35:48 ►

you can have your psychiatrist with special training

00:35:50 ►

run the clinic,

00:35:52 ►

but the clinic can be run by psychologists

00:35:55 ►

and others to actually do the therapy.

00:35:58 ►

It doesn’t need to be the psychiatrist

00:35:59 ►

that only does the therapy.

00:36:00 ►

The people who do the therapy

00:36:01 ►

who directly interact with the patients

00:36:02 ►

also need to have their special training.

00:36:06 ►

But we don’t want to give this to the doctors to monopolize.

00:36:08 ►

That’s a disaster

00:36:09 ►

and every little specialty does want to

00:36:12 ►

try to monopolize

00:36:12 ►

its ability to pursue its

00:36:16 ►

profit making service.

00:36:18 ►

So we want to cut that

00:36:19 ►

and recognize that a lot of people can be

00:36:22 ►

good sitters.

00:36:23 ►

So that’s the psychedelic clinic model.

00:36:26 ►

Now, what makes that so valuable is that that also leads to a view towards general legalization,

00:36:33 ►

which is that, and I’d like to attribute this back to Timothy Leary.

00:36:39 ►

And he had something, I think it was like 1965 that he said this.

00:36:43 ►

And he talked about how we all are familiar with

00:36:45 ►

you have to get a driver’s license to drive a car.

00:36:49 ►

And if you want to drive an airplane,

00:36:50 ►

you have to get a different license.

00:36:52 ►

And so psychedelics should be like that.

00:36:55 ►

That getting a

00:36:56 ►

license for marijuana should be pretty simple.

00:36:58 ►

It’s like your driver’s license.

00:37:00 ►

But getting a license for psychedelics should be

00:37:02 ►

more difficult. And that

00:37:04 ►

you should have, just like you have to have a driver as Ed,

00:37:08 ►

where you have to demonstrate that you can drive with somebody who’s in the car with you and watching you drive,

00:37:13 ►

that your first session should be under supervision in a psychedelic clinic.

00:37:17 ►

That you don’t need to be a patient.

00:37:19 ►

You don’t need to be a family member of a patient.

00:37:21 ►

You just need to want to use psychedelics for personal growth.

00:37:24 ►

You go to a psychedelic clinic.

00:37:26 ►

You have your first session.

00:37:28 ►

This is a problem because it costs money.

00:37:30 ►

It’s expensive. There’s a barrier to entry.

00:37:32 ►

It’s not a right. It’s a privilege.

00:37:34 ►

But you can do that.

00:37:36 ►

And then, if you have

00:37:37 ►

not flipped out, not had an allergic reaction,

00:37:40 ►

the doctor says, yes, you can now buy

00:37:41 ►

these drugs at the pharmacy

00:37:43 ►

for use on the client or yes you can now buy these drugs at the pharmacy for use on the plie at Burning Man

00:37:46 ►

or wherever you like

00:37:48 ►

you can use them in your church

00:37:50 ►

in your temple, however you want

00:37:51 ►

group settings, individual settings

00:37:53 ►

but the psychedelic clinic model

00:37:55 ►

leads to a kind of responsible

00:37:58 ►

slow step by step approach

00:37:59 ►

towards general legalization

00:38:01 ►

so this psychedelic clinic model

00:38:03 ►

is one that I think

00:38:05 ►

makes sense. We know that there have been

00:38:07 ►

methadone treatment centers.

00:38:09 ►

I have a couple little kids

00:38:11 ►

and I was looking at the regulations for nursery

00:38:14 ►

schools, for preschools

00:38:15 ►

and it’s not like anybody can open up a

00:38:18 ►

preschool. There are a lot

00:38:20 ►

of regulations for preschools.

00:38:22 ►

We also know about hospice centers.

00:38:24 ►

We’ve had the rise of the birthing centers. We’ve had the rise of the birthing centers.

00:38:26 ►

We’ve had the rise

00:38:26 ►

of the hospice movement.

00:38:28 ►

And these birthing centers,

00:38:29 ►

hospice centers,

00:38:29 ►

are highly regulated.

00:38:30 ►

So the psychedelic model

00:38:32 ►

for clinics

00:38:33 ►

is not something

00:38:34 ►

that regulators

00:38:34 ►

are totally foreign to.

00:38:36 ►

It’s just a different kind

00:38:37 ►

of an altered states experience

00:38:39 ►

will take place within it.

00:38:40 ►

And I think

00:38:41 ►

what’s different

00:38:42 ►

now in the 60s

00:38:43 ►

is that we didn’t have

00:38:44 ►

birthing centers. Birth was not what’s different now in the 60s is that we didn’t have birth incentives. Birth was

00:38:45 ►

not something that took place in

00:38:47 ►

polite society. Women were knocked

00:38:49 ►

out. My dad’s a pediatrician. He wasn’t

00:38:52 ►

even allowed in the delivery room when I was born.

00:38:54 ►

And death was something that you didn’t

00:38:56 ►

talk about. My aunt died

00:38:58 ►

when she was 21 of cancer and she didn’t even know

00:39:00 ►

she had cancer. We weren’t supposed to talk about

00:39:02 ►

it. So we’ve sort of

00:39:03 ►

humanized birth and death. And the big part

00:39:05 ►

in the middle

00:39:06 ►

is life. It’s rites of passage.

00:39:11 ►

And psychedelics fit

00:39:12 ►

within that. So that’s really where we’re

00:39:13 ►

at to try to make that happen.

00:39:16 ►

Now with this model,

00:39:18 ►

I think that there’s

00:39:20 ►

00:39:21 ►

sequence

00:39:24 ►

of steps

00:39:25 ►

that are going to have to be

00:39:27 ►

taken to reach that.

00:39:29 ►

So to give you just a sense,

00:39:30 ►

what is the drug development process?

00:39:33 ►

What you first need to do is

00:39:34 ►

small pilot studies

00:39:36 ►

in about 20 to 50 people

00:39:39 ►

in your therapeutic group

00:39:40 ►

to just say,

00:39:41 ►

proof of principle,

00:39:42 ►

can you really help people?

00:39:44 ►

How many non-drug therapy hours does it take? What kind of principle. Can you really help people? How many non-drug therapy

00:39:46 ►

hours does it take? What kind

00:39:48 ►

of outcome measures are you going to use?

00:39:49 ►

What kind of outcome measures will the FDA consider to be

00:39:51 ►

valid? So you do these pilot studies

00:39:54 ►

and that’s the stage

00:39:55 ►

that we’re at with the PTSD

00:39:58 ►

study. Mike Lennon will tell you

00:39:59 ►

more about that study, so I’m not going to really go

00:40:02 ►

into that. But from the pilot studies,

00:40:04 ►

then you move up to the next step,

00:40:06 ►

which is called developing a treatment manual.

00:40:08 ►

Because psychedelic

00:40:10 ►

psychotherapy is exactly that.

00:40:11 ►

It’s not the psychedelic only,

00:40:14 ►

it’s not psychotherapy only,

00:40:15 ►

and so to do this in a scientific way,

00:40:18 ►

and I’d like to say that when you

00:40:19 ►

work with the irrational, when you work with

00:40:21 ►

the unconscious, I think it’s

00:40:23 ►

especially incumbent upon us to layer in scientific.

00:40:28 ►

And that science really is something holy about it, even though science excludes a lot,

00:40:33 ►

there’s something very deeply spiritual about science.

00:40:36 ►

And so it’s the marriage of science and spirituality, science and the unconscious that will move

00:40:42 ►

us through the system and bring us more into wholeness.

00:40:53 ►

What that means practically is the FDA,

00:40:56 ►

they don’t think about psychotherapy.

00:40:58 ►

You have to standardize the drug.

00:40:59 ►

How much drug are you giving to each of your patients

00:41:02 ►

and each of the subjects?

00:41:05 ►

The National Institute of Mental Health, which other than the Army and the CIA, have funded

00:41:08 ►

the early research with psychedelics, they have what’s called a whole technology to develop

00:41:15 ►

what’s called treatment manuals.

00:41:17 ►

And they standardize the treatment.

00:41:19 ►

Because there’s many different ways to work with psychedelics.

00:41:22 ►

And so what we’re going to try to do is develop a particular way that we like,

00:41:26 ►

that we think is most effective, and then

00:41:28 ►

in our research, everybody has to follow that

00:41:30 ►

model. And not only do they have to follow

00:41:32 ►

it, but they have to be videotaped

00:41:33 ►

doing the therapy, and there has to be

00:41:36 ►

blinded independent raters that has a checklist.

00:41:39 ►

You know, did they say,

00:41:39 ►

close your eyes and go inside at the right time?

00:41:42 ►

You know, or it’s going to be so hard

00:41:44 ►

to develop this.

00:41:45 ►

How do you standardize an intuitive emotional process?

00:41:49 ►

But that is our challenge.

00:41:50 ►

We have to standardize through the treatment manual

00:41:52 ►

what the treatment is

00:41:54 ►

and standardize the drug dosage.

00:41:57 ►

So again, this idea is

00:41:59 ►

National Institute of Mental Health, FDA,

00:42:01 ►

we’re trying to move into the government systems,

00:42:04 ►

move into places

00:42:06 ►

that have banished psychedelics but have worked

00:42:07 ►

with them in the past.

00:42:09 ►

Once you’ve developed the treatment manual, that’s our

00:42:11 ►

step two for our next set of pilot studies.

00:42:14 ►

Then you go into the

00:42:15 ►

large-scale phase three trials.

00:42:18 ►

And those are the studies in

00:42:19 ►

200 or 300 people

00:42:21 ►

where you really prove safety

00:42:24 ►

and efficacy.

00:42:26 ►

And the way the FDA says it,

00:42:28 ►

you have to do two of those independently.

00:42:30 ►

And our strategy is going to try to do one in the United States

00:42:31 ►

and one somewhere in Europe or Israel

00:42:33 ►

so that we can then submit

00:42:35 ►

to the European medical agencies

00:42:37 ►

the data from Europe and also from the U.S.

00:42:40 ►

because they all want at least one done

00:42:42 ►

in their general region.

00:42:44 ►

Now, those studies,

00:42:46 ►

the problem with psychedelics

00:42:47 ►

from a scientific point of view is that

00:42:49 ►

it’s very difficult to give somebody a psychedelic

00:42:52 ►

and have them not know it.

00:42:54 ►

How do you do a double-blind

00:42:58 ►

study with a psychedelic drug?

00:43:02 ►

It’s really…

00:43:03 ►

How do you do it

00:43:05 ►

well I mean Michael and I will tell you

00:43:06 ►

that in the MDMA study there’s one person

00:43:09 ►

that doesn’t know for sure

00:43:10 ►

if they’ve got the MDMA or placebo

00:43:12 ►

the therapy a lot, listening to music

00:43:15 ►

taking time out of your busy life

00:43:17 ►

lying down and resting

00:43:18 ►

having therapists that you trust

00:43:20 ►

that’s powerful in itself

00:43:22 ►

but the best way that we’ve come up with, and negotiations

00:43:26 ►

are already with FDA, so this is pretty well something

00:43:28 ►

that’s called the dose response study

00:43:29 ►

where instead of an inactive

00:43:32 ►

placebo, you prepare

00:43:33 ►

MDMA versus

00:43:35 ►

some tranquilizer or something.

00:43:38 ►

The therapist will know, the people

00:43:40 ►

will know. You have a duty

00:43:42 ►

to, in the informed consent

00:43:44 ►

form, prepare people for what experience they’re going to have.

00:43:47 ►

You can’t completely keep them in the dark.

00:43:49 ►

So that people read the informed consent form.

00:43:51 ►

They’re going to be able to tell the difference.

00:43:53 ►

But it’s harder to tell the difference

00:43:54 ►

between 25 milligrams of MDMA, 75 milligrams of MDMA,

00:43:58 ►

or 125 milligrams of MDMA.

00:44:01 ►

That’s called a dose response study.

00:44:03 ►

And when you do that, what makes it

00:44:05 ►

difficult for us is we have to show that the people that got the 125 milligrams do better

00:44:11 ►

than the people that got the 75 milligrams do better than the people that got the 25

00:44:16 ►

milligrams. But I think we can do that. And so that’s the basic design. But because these

00:44:21 ►

things are so politically controversial, we have to add yet a fourth group, which

00:44:26 ►

is the best legally available alternative

00:44:28 ►

treatment. And what’s administered

00:44:30 ►

is what’s called open label.

00:44:31 ►

Which means that the patients and the doctors

00:44:34 ►

know what they’re getting. There’s really no way to say

00:44:36 ►

here’s your Prozac, take it every

00:44:38 ►

day for the next three months

00:44:39 ►

and there’s no

00:44:42 ►

doctors meeting with you, there’s no therapy session

00:44:44 ►

but, you know, is is that MDMA or not?

00:44:46 ►

People will know.

00:44:47 ►

But it’s okay.

00:44:48 ►

So we are preparing to do this design,

00:44:50 ►

the best available alternative

00:44:51 ►

with the three dose levels of MDMA,

00:44:54 ►

and that’s the design.

00:44:56 ►

It makes it more expensive,

00:44:57 ►

it makes it larger,

00:44:58 ►

but we’re dealing with a panicked,

00:45:00 ►

frightened, misinformed culture

00:45:02 ►

that has a lot of resistances.

00:45:05 ►

And so we have to go

00:45:06 ►

more than the extra mile

00:45:07 ►

to satisfy their concerns.

00:45:09 ►

And over time,

00:45:10 ►

as we build trust,

00:45:12 ►

we may be able to shed

00:45:13 ►

some of these extra steps.

00:45:14 ►

But right now,

00:45:15 ►

we can’t shed any of them.

00:45:17 ►

So that’s the general design.

00:45:19 ►

And that’s why it will take

00:45:20 ►

roughly five to seven million dollars

00:45:21 ►

in roughly five to seven years. And that’s for each, maybe five to seven million dollars in roughly five to seven years.

00:45:26 ►

And that’s for each,

00:45:27 ►

maybe five to seven billion years,

00:45:29 ►

that’s possible.

00:45:31 ►

If so, it’s still worth the effort.

00:45:33 ►

That’s the fundamental thing,

00:45:35 ►

which is that disconnecting success

00:45:37 ►

from happiness

00:45:39 ►

and linking it to just giving it a good try.

00:45:44 ►

I think that’s what’s been helpful for me personally

00:45:46 ►

for working over these 20 years

00:45:47 ►

and only failing for 19 years

00:45:50 ►

and finally getting a study approved in the 20th

00:45:52 ►

is that the failures really I didn’t perceive as failures.

00:45:55 ►

They were successes in pissing off the government,

00:45:58 ►

making them respond to what we were doing,

00:46:00 ►

engaging them, giving me something to do, the next step.

00:46:07 ►

That was all that could be done and then that was a success in another step

00:46:09 ►

so I think that that’s the key here

00:46:11 ►

and with this model

00:46:13 ►

we have to do this for each individual

00:46:15 ►

drug as well

00:46:17 ►

so sometimes people come out

00:46:19 ►

of the woodwork that you didn’t expect

00:46:21 ►

we have allies out there

00:46:23 ►

that we don’t even realize

00:46:24 ►

just as much as we have enemies

00:46:27 ►

that are lurking,

00:46:28 ►

waiting for us to make any mistake.

00:46:30 ►

So, for instance,

00:46:31 ►

there are a group of people

00:46:32 ►

that have cluster headaches.

00:46:34 ►

And these are very severe.

00:46:35 ►

A lot of the medications don’t work for them.

00:46:37 ►

And independently,

00:46:38 ►

they’ve discovered that psilocybin

00:46:40 ►

breaks, and LSD even more so than psilocybin,

00:46:44 ►

breaks the cycle of cluster headaches.

00:46:47 ►

And they have about 100 testimonials for this.

00:46:50 ►

And so I was contacted by a representative of this patient group,

00:46:53 ►

and he said, can you help us do any research?

00:46:56 ►

And it turns out that one of the women who was treated successfully

00:46:59 ►

is married to the number 28 employee of Microsoft,

00:47:02 ►

and so we got a $50,000 grant for the LSD study,

00:47:07 ►

the LSD psilocybin study.

00:47:09 ►

We’re going to use both.

00:47:11 ►

LSD does work better, but it’s harder to get.

00:47:13 ►

So they want to do the study to show psilocybin works

00:47:15 ►

because people can also get mushrooms.

00:47:17 ►

So our effort at Harvard is,

00:47:19 ►

once we get the MDMA cancer patient study approved,

00:47:22 ►

we’re following it on with an attempt to restart LSD research.

00:47:27 ►

Also where LSD was so notorious at Harvard.

00:47:31 ►

And Andrew Sewell, who’s, I don’t know if he’s here right now,

00:47:34 ►

but he’s here at Burning Man.

00:47:37 ►

Okay, he’s going to be the doctor to lead the project

00:47:40 ►

with LSD and psilocybin.

00:47:43 ►

So we’ve got these plans

00:47:45 ►

to move forward in that way.

00:47:49 ►

And what I’d like to then do

00:47:50 ►

is just leave you with a few basic

00:47:53 ►

overview concepts

00:47:55 ►

about how I think we need to do this.

00:47:58 ►

Then we can have questions

00:47:59 ►

and then we’ll hear Michael and Annie.

00:48:01 ►

But the fundamental concept here for me

00:48:03 ►

is drug development in the open.

00:48:05 ►

This is fundamentally different

00:48:06 ►

than the way the pharmaceutical companies do it.

00:48:08 ►

Pharmaceutical companies compete with each other

00:48:11 ►

to get a drug to market

00:48:13 ►

so that they can be the first to patent it,

00:48:16 ►

they can have an exclusive monopoly on it,

00:48:18 ►

and then they can get all these monopoly rents

00:48:20 ►

and make all this money.

00:48:22 ►

Psychedelics, MDMA in particular,

00:48:26 ►

it’s non-patentable,

00:48:27 ►

invented in 1912, patents expired. We’ve talked so much

00:48:30 ►

in the public about the potential uses

00:48:31 ►

that I hired a patent attorney

00:48:33 ►

to examine, could

00:48:35 ►

somebody get a use patent?

00:48:37 ►

That’s what happened with Ibogaine. First person

00:48:40 ►

Howard Lasso used Ibogaine

00:48:42 ►

to treat addiction and learned that

00:48:43 ►

it worked for him and so nobody ever talked about it like that.

00:48:46 ►

He got a use patent for that.

00:48:48 ►

There has been so much cross lawsuits among people in the Ibogaine movement

00:48:52 ►

that it’s almost destroyed their research effort.

00:48:54 ►

They have set them back 15 years.

00:48:56 ►

They’re just now getting momentum again.

00:48:58 ►

So I think it’s kind of difficult.

00:49:01 ►

I’m really nervous about trying to get patent protection for this.

00:49:04 ►

And I want to make sure if MAPS does this all in the public domain, could somebody else

00:49:08 ►

just say, well, we’re going to get MAPS.

00:49:10 ►

The patent attorney has told me, no, that can’t be done because it’s all in the public

00:49:14 ►

domain.

00:49:15 ►

So, drug development in the open.

00:49:17 ►

What that also means is that we put our protocols up on the internet so that we’re sharing our

00:49:23 ►

basic analysis of the data so that other scientists can use it, pharmaceutical companies.

00:49:27 ►

If they want to come in with their resources and feed us to the market, you know, I’ll

00:49:31 ►

go to the beach more often.

00:49:33 ►

That would be great, you know, if they take it.

00:49:36 ►

So not only does it mean drug development in the open, putting the protocols out there,

00:49:41 ►

but this is also something that, for me, it’s been necessary and imperative

00:49:45 ►

to talk to the media about it. Pharmaceutical companies don’t like to do that. We have run

00:49:50 ►

into a lot of problems where you get mischaracterized when you talk to the media. Something that’s

00:49:55 ►

difficult for me personally is that I do believe in the recreational use of drugs as something

00:50:01 ►

that I grew up on, that I think is therapeutic.

00:50:05 ►

I think we have these artificial distinctions.

00:50:07 ►

This is therapy, this is religion, this is recreational, and this is good, and this is

00:50:11 ►

good, and recreation is bad.

00:50:12 ►

That’s not actually the case.

00:50:14 ►

Dancing all night can be incredibly therapeutic.

00:50:17 ►

It can be spiritual.

00:50:18 ►

So, I think that trying to talk about that in public with a skeptical media has made me brand the

00:50:26 ►

Timothy Leary of the 80s, the different kind of it’s been difficult and so any

00:50:32 ►

social movement needs multiple agencies multiple groups taking different

00:50:38 ►

approaches and so there’s the Hefter Research Institute which is the other

00:50:42 ►

major organizations not a membership organization.

00:50:47 ►

So all of you should consider joining MAPS.

00:50:50 ►

It goes through larger funders to do their studies.

00:50:52 ►

And they stay away from medical marijuana. They stay away

00:50:54 ►

from talking about the drug war. They stay

00:50:56 ►

away from controversy.

00:50:58 ►

They stay away from media.

00:51:00 ►

But they are doing some very important studies.

00:51:02 ►

So I see MAPS as like

00:51:04 ►

the Marines landing on the beachhead.

00:51:06 ►

We take the flag and then if we got a bullet, then they come on and continue.

00:51:11 ►

And so far, it’s been really fortunate that we’re still around.

00:51:15 ►

We’re still working.

00:51:17 ►

And yet, I think there’s this really important recognition.

00:51:20 ►

Again, we’re part of a movement.

00:51:22 ►

We’re all working together.

00:51:23 ►

And so maps have to collaborate as much as we can on protocol design in every way possible.

00:51:28 ►

But it’s MAPS that mostly tries to speak out in the media.

00:51:32 ►

So I think drug development in the open has the other advantage in that the government

00:51:36 ►

and the DEA, one time I took MDMA to try to figure out how the DEA looks at me.

00:51:41 ►

And to try to go to the enemy, go into them and see how can I be safe.

00:51:46 ►

And the main thing I

00:51:48 ►

realize is that the DEA

00:51:49 ►

by their habit, their whole training

00:51:52 ►

is they’re interested in what’s under the rock.

00:51:55 ►

What is being hidden from them?

00:51:56 ►

What is being done in secret?

00:51:58 ►

If you come out in the open and tell them

00:52:00 ►

what you’re doing and engage them in that way,

00:52:03 ►

a lot of times

00:52:03 ►

you’re safe. You’re

00:52:05 ►

actually safer. So that I’ve not been harassed. I speak out in public how I’ve done MDMA and

00:52:11 ►

I will continue to do MDMA and I hope my children will do MDMA. I speak, at least not, excuse

00:52:17 ►

me, for my stache yet. But I’ve taken some pretty clear statements about my personal use and I’ve not seen this

00:52:29 ►

negative reaction because I think I’m engaging the government in a public way about the research.

00:52:36 ►

Now I want to make one other major distinction here between psychedelics and marijuana.

00:52:42 ►

The key thing here is that with psychedelics,

00:52:45 ►

there are multiple points of manufacturing.

00:52:47 ►

So that MAPS has our own independent supply of MDMA.

00:52:51 ►

And in fact, the two safety studies funded by the government,

00:52:54 ►

funded by the National Institute of Drug Abuse,

00:52:56 ►

we donated the MDMA to.

00:52:58 ►

And they use our own MDMA because we have the best MDMA.

00:53:01 ►

And also that means we can use their data to submit directly to FDA.

00:53:04 ►

FDA isn’t going to worry. It’s a different drug. We have our own MDMA. And also that means we can use their data to submit directly to FDA. FDA isn’t going to worry.

00:53:05 ►

It’s a different drug.

00:53:06 ►

We have our own psilocybin.

00:53:08 ►

We have the world’s most expensive gram of psilocybin.

00:53:10 ►

It costs $12,250 for one gram.

00:53:15 ►

That was after all sorts of negotiations with FDA

00:53:18 ►

and the pharmaceutical company that manufactured it for us.

00:53:21 ►

The MDMA, we actually made 1,000 grams back in 1985 for $4 a gram.

00:53:27 ►

And we have almost all of it left

00:53:28 ►

sitting in a safe.

00:53:29 ►

I’ve never seen it.

00:53:31 ►

I would never be able to touch it.

00:53:33 ►

We can’t say where it is.

00:53:36 ►

LSD, we have…

00:53:38 ►

Richard Jensen was able to import LSD

00:53:39 ►

from Switzerland.

00:53:41 ►

And so marijuana is the only drug

00:53:43 ►

that the government has a monopoly on the supply of

00:53:46 ►

marijuana, which they

00:53:47 ►

restrict to only kind of

00:53:50 ►

studies that they want. So we’ve

00:53:52 ►

just recently launched a lawsuit against the

00:53:53 ►

DEA for blocking our efforts for medical

00:53:56 ►

marijuana. We’ve tried for three years

00:53:57 ►

to start our own marijuana farm at

00:53:59 ►

UMass Amherst. We’ve tried

00:54:02 ►

for a year to import pot

00:54:04 ►

from the Dutch Office of Magical Cannabis.

00:54:06 ►

And the government has not said yes or no

00:54:08 ►

to either the UMass Amherst or the importation.

00:54:10 ►

And we’ve tried for

00:54:12 ►

over a year to buy $70

00:54:13 ►

worth of marijuana.

00:54:16 ►

$10 grams

00:54:17 ►

$7 a gram is what they would charge us

00:54:20 ►

for vaporizer research.

00:54:21 ►

Vaporizers eat marijuana up and they don’t burn it.

00:54:24 ►

That’s the key to getting marijuana through the FDA.

00:54:27 ►

Vaporizers are a non-smoking delivery system.

00:54:30 ►

The pot doesn’t get burned.

00:54:31 ►

You don’t have the particulate matter.

00:54:33 ►

You don’t have the combustion products.

00:54:35 ►

We can deal with the safety issues with vaporized marijuana

00:54:38 ►

and people can still grow the plants in their backyard

00:54:40 ►

and use it that way.

00:54:42 ►

They don’t have to buy it from a pharmaceutical company.

00:54:44 ►

And we’ve been able to do

00:54:45 ►

circuitous and run. We have a human

00:54:47 ►

study with vaporizers starting

00:54:49 ►

next month in October.

00:54:51 ►

UC San Francisco, Donald Abrams,

00:54:53 ►

is starting the first human vaporizer study ever.

00:54:56 ►

Once we get our own independent

00:54:57 ►

sources of supply of marijuana,

00:55:00 ►

then we’re going to be ready to launch this $5 million

00:55:02 ►

five-year plan with marijuana as well.

00:55:04 ►

But right now, we’ve got the lawsuits against the DEA and the lawsuits against NIDA,

00:55:08 ►

National Institutes of Health, and Health and Human Services.

00:55:11 ►

And the governor’s doing his best job to resist the lawsuits.

00:55:14 ►

So it’s not clear to me when we’ll break the government monopoly.

00:55:16 ►

But it’s very difficult for a Republican administration to say,

00:55:20 ►

we like monopolies.

00:55:22 ►

We want to keep our marijuana.

00:55:24 ►

We do not want private industry to get in there

00:55:26 ►

and pay for research paper.

00:55:27 ►

So it puts them in a difficult circumstance.

00:55:29 ►

There’s a U.S. Supreme Court case coming up

00:55:32 ►

that they’re going to be hearing

00:55:34 ►

as the Rachel versus Ashton Nashcroft,

00:55:35 ►

where the Controlled Substances Act

00:55:38 ►

was declared unconstitutional

00:55:39 ►

when it applied to medical marijuana patients

00:55:41 ►

growing their own marijuana,

00:55:43 ►

and states that had approved it,

00:55:44 ►

they said there was no interstate commerce

00:55:45 ►

and therefore patients had the right

00:55:47 ►

and the DEA didn’t have the right to go in.

00:55:49 ►

So what we’re doing is

00:55:50 ►

our track record of failure

00:55:52 ►

to do medical marijuana research

00:55:53 ►

is part of an amicus Supreme Court brief

00:55:55 ►

that we’re submitting to the Supreme Court

00:55:57 ►

to say you can’t justifiably say

00:55:59 ►

that the state system

00:56:01 ►

the state initiatives isn’t right

00:56:03 ►

because we have to go through the FDA

00:56:05 ►

when the FDA is being actively blocked by other branches of the government.

00:56:09 ►

So that’s where we’re at with marijuana.

00:56:10 ►

That’s why we’ve made so much more success with psychedelics.

00:56:14 ►

So the key is drug development in the open.

00:56:17 ►

And once that we’ve been able to do that,

00:56:20 ►

the next step, and I think this is very crucial,

00:56:23 ►

is that we have to be the leaders about what is the risks,

00:56:27 ►

as well as the benefits.

00:56:29 ►

We have to prove the benefits, but we have to become the trusted source by government, by parents,

00:56:36 ►

by the media, to the risks of MDMA.

00:56:39 ►

So, I was, MAPS has consistently tried to understand what’s the story about the neurotoxicity of MDMA.

00:56:46 ►

We funded the first monkey study ever with MDMA,

00:56:51 ►

looking at what’s going on with serotonin in monkeys.

00:56:54 ►

We did the first human study which involved spinal taps.

00:56:58 ►

And so I figured two things.

00:57:00 ►

And I was the first volunteer to get a spinal tap

00:57:02 ►

to see how my serotonin was.

00:57:04 ►

So I took strength from the war on drugs.

00:57:06 ►

And I figured, all right, well, I’m a soldier for drugs.

00:57:09 ►

And so I can take a little pain and donate it.

00:57:13 ►

And then I thought, I’m a man.

00:57:15 ►

I don’t have to give birth to a child.

00:57:16 ►

Women have to do that.

00:57:17 ►

It hurts them a lot.

00:57:19 ►

And so I can take a little bit of pain, give birth to some of my spinal fluid,

00:57:22 ►

and give it to the scientists.

00:57:24 ►

So with that kind of mental thought,

00:57:26 ►

I was able to recruit about 30

00:57:27 ►

people, and we started the first spinal cap

00:57:29 ►

studies. Then we started the

00:57:32 ►

first PET scan studies,

00:57:33 ►

where we got radioactively tagged dots.

00:57:35 ►

So what I do believe is the

00:57:37 ►

case is that MDMA research is more

00:57:39 ►

dangerous than MDMA.

00:57:43 ►

And

00:57:43 ►

the final proof of that is I was in a sleep study at UCLA

00:57:46 ►

looking at whether my sleep architecture

00:57:49 ►

had changed because of my use of MDMA.

00:57:51 ►

This was at UCLA.

00:57:53 ►

And I was wired to all of these electrodes,

00:57:56 ►

electrodes in my body,

00:57:57 ►

scent waves,

00:57:58 ►

as I was sleeping

00:57:59 ►

and then as the earthquake starts.

00:58:02 ►

And that was really,

00:58:02 ►

it was kind of scary.

00:58:04 ►

So there have been so many risks from this MDMA research. And it was really kind of scary. So there have been so many

00:58:06 ►

risks from this MDMA research.

00:58:08 ►

And it is sort of proving true that

00:58:10 ►

the risks of MDMA are pretty trivial

00:58:12 ►

in terms of neurotoxicity.

00:58:14 ►

And in clinical research

00:58:16 ►

we can control so there’s not going to be

00:58:18 ►

overheating, not going to be hyperthermia. The risks

00:58:19 ►

are really pretty minimal. But we have

00:58:21 ►

to be the ones that look at risks.

00:58:24 ►

And so that…

00:58:26 ►

Okay.

00:58:28 ►

So the key thing at Harvard

00:58:30 ►

was to show them

00:58:31 ►

that the risks of MDMA

00:58:33 ►

right now come down to

00:58:34 ►

neurocognitive consequences.

00:58:36 ►

What does MDMA do

00:58:37 ►

to memory long term?

00:58:38 ►

That’s the issue.

00:58:39 ►

The government is not

00:58:40 ►

believable about risks.

00:58:41 ►

Kids don’t believe them.

00:58:43 ►

We have to be the ones

00:58:44 ►

that are experts in risks.

00:58:45 ►

And I think that’s the balance point

00:58:47 ►

that we really need to keep.

00:58:48 ►

And then the other point

00:58:50 ►

is that we need to really be strategic

00:58:53 ►

about patients that we work with.

00:58:55 ►

So marijuana for age patients,

00:58:57 ►

that’s how it first came out.

00:58:58 ►

But age patients are not us,

00:59:00 ►

they’re them.

00:59:01 ►

But MDMA for PTSD,

00:59:03 ►

that’s a lot better.

00:59:04 ►

Any of us could be traumatized

00:59:06 ►

in some way or other, but that’s still not very

00:59:08 ►

many people. But MDMA

00:59:10 ►

for cancer, psilocybin for cancer,

00:59:12 ►

for fear of death, that’s

00:59:14 ►

striking right at me, at everybody’s

00:59:16 ►

fears. How are we going to handle our own

00:59:18 ►

personal death? And even the drug

00:59:19 ►

lawyers are scared more of dying

00:59:21 ►

than they are of drugs. So that

00:59:24 ►

by strategically choosing this particular patient population to move forward with, with

00:59:28 ►

the PTSD study, I think we have a chance of winning public support for this research.

00:59:34 ►

And we also have to be strategic in leveraging funds.

00:59:37 ►

So where as much as possible we need to get government to start paying for stuff.

00:59:41 ►

So that’s why we want to do the treatment manual, get the National Institute of Mental

00:59:44 ►

Health to pay for stuff. So that’s why we want to do the treatment manual, get the National Institute of Mental Health to pay for research.

00:59:45 ►

We have to have an international strategy,

00:59:48 ►

which, because of the U.S. government control

00:59:51 ►

clamped on all over the world,

00:59:53 ►

it’s really been difficult for us

00:59:54 ►

to develop an international strategy.

00:59:56 ►

We are the center of the octopus here,

00:59:59 ►

and so I think strategically

01:00:00 ►

we really need to focus mostly on the United States.

01:00:03 ►

And then the other thing is the focus on children

01:00:08 ►

and the way the drug war is supposed to protect the kids.

01:00:12 ►

And that’s where I think we need to develop,

01:00:13 ►

talk about rites of passage, rituals,

01:00:16 ►

that cultures traditionally have used to educate children

01:00:20 ►

about psychedelics, about all states, about their culture.

01:00:23 ►

And so rather than say,

01:00:26 ►

we want to legalize psychedelics for people who are 21 or over,

01:00:28 ►

what we want to use, and I bet you most

01:00:30 ►

of you won’t know this, but in 23 states

01:00:32 ►

parents can legally

01:00:34 ►

give alcohol to their

01:00:36 ►

children. It’s

01:00:38 ►

the exception to the age limit.

01:00:41 ►

Children can’t go to a bar if you’re

01:00:42 ►

under 21, you can’t get it. But your parents

01:00:44 ►

in 23 states can’t give you

01:00:46 ►

alcohol in order

01:00:48 ►

to teach you about how to use it

01:00:50 ►

responsibly. That’s why those laws were created.

01:00:52 ►

You can have wine at home,

01:00:54 ►

your parents aren’t going to go to jail.

01:00:55 ►

So we need to adopt that model with marijuana

01:00:58 ►

and with psychedelics and talk

01:01:00 ►

about how rites of passage rituals

01:01:02 ►

that are lacking in our culture

01:01:04 ►

need to be created. We’ll have rites of passage rituals that are lacking in our culture need to be created.

01:01:06 ►

We’ll have rites of passage rituals for terminal illness and also for young people.

01:01:09 ►

So we have to take that head on.

01:01:11 ►

And then finally, I think we can’t just talk about research in the abstract.

01:01:14 ►

We have to talk about how the drug war impacts our ability to do research.

01:01:18 ►

So that’s, I think my bottom line is that I can’t just say I want to do this one study for this one patient population.

01:01:26 ►

So that’s the overall general strategy.

01:01:28 ►

It’s only possible because donations to MAPS from large donors and small donors.

01:01:33 ►

I’d like to encourage all of you, if you believe in the vision, to consider becoming MAPS members.

01:01:38 ►

We have a bulletin.

01:01:39 ►

We have all sorts of events that we’re starting to do.

01:01:44 ►

Well, the question is really,

01:01:45 ►

we can’t hear it,

01:01:46 ►

is are we scared that

01:01:47 ►

as we start developing these technologies

01:01:49 ►

that the powers of coercion and control,

01:01:51 ►

military and industrial complexes,

01:01:53 ►

they will take advantage of what we want to do

01:01:55 ►

and twist it?

01:01:56 ►

And the answer is,

01:01:58 ►

no, I’m not scared of that

01:01:58 ►

because they already tried that.

01:01:59 ►

That was the whole story

01:02:00 ►

of the mind control experiments.

01:02:02 ►

And what they found is that you can disorient people with LSD.

01:02:07 ►

You can make army people march in crooked lines with other weapons

01:02:12 ►

when you spray them with BZ and other drugs.

01:02:15 ►

But then, really, these drugs, you cannot…

01:02:19 ►

Instead of the torture that we did to the Iraqi prisoners,

01:02:22 ►

if we would have given them all MDMA,

01:02:25 ►

would we have gotten more information?

01:02:28 ►

Probably.

01:02:29 ►

But I’m not scared if the government does that.

01:02:31 ►

I would like them to.

01:02:32 ►

So I’m not really scared that we’ll get subliminal amnesia.

01:02:36 ►

So I think that that’s something we need to be aware of,

01:02:38 ►

that that’s really been the secret history of the 40s, 50s, and 60s,

01:02:41 ►

as in that underground kind of military secret research.

01:02:45 ►

I think we have more to fear from not going forward than from going forward and worrying

01:02:51 ►

maybe they’re going to co-opt us somehow.

01:02:53 ►

What about the pharmaceutical companies?

01:02:56 ►

If the pharmaceutical companies want to take it over, all the better.

01:03:00 ►

They will market it, they will make it faster they have the resources but basically

01:03:05 ►

they’re not going to do it

01:03:06 ►

because Prozac

01:03:07 ►

Zoloft

01:03:08 ►

Paxil

01:03:08 ►

it’s a daily drug

01:03:09 ►

these drugs are designed

01:03:10 ►

not to treat depression

01:03:11 ►

these drugs are designed

01:03:13 ►

to make money

01:03:13 ►

for the pharmaceutical companies

01:03:15 ►

what is the best drug

01:03:16 ►

to make money

01:03:17 ►

for the pharmaceutical companies

01:03:18 ►

a drug that you have to take

01:03:19 ►

every day

01:03:19 ►

for a long period of time

01:03:20 ►

and then when you stop

01:03:21 ►

taking it

01:03:22 ►

a big percentage of people

01:03:23 ►

the problems come back

01:03:24 ►

so that’s what they’ve got when you stop taking it, a big percentage of people have problems come back.

01:03:27 ►

That’s what they’ve got. When you give psychedelic psychotherapy,

01:03:29 ►

you give a lot of non-drug psychotherapy,

01:03:31 ►

and you give one or two or three MDMA or LSD

01:03:33 ►

sessions, and people

01:03:35 ►

are sometimes significantly better.

01:03:37 ►

It competes with the financial

01:03:39 ►

interests of the pharmaceutical industry.

01:03:41 ►

I’m not scared of the pharmaceutical industry.

01:03:43 ►

I would like them to invest money.

01:03:45 ►

They can tweak the MDMA molecule

01:03:47 ►

and patent some new thing,

01:03:49 ►

and they can say it’s ten times better,

01:03:50 ►

but we know MDMA works.

01:03:52 ►

I don’t think they’ll have one that’s a little bit better,

01:03:54 ►

but let them go.

01:03:57 ►

That’s why drug development in the open

01:03:58 ►

is not something that I’m cautious about.

01:04:01 ►

It’s something that we actively try to work toward.

01:04:04 ►

I think that the idea is that we actively try to work toward. I think that

01:04:06 ►

the idea is that people

01:04:08 ►

have a basic right

01:04:09 ►

to worship God

01:04:14 ►

in their own fashion

01:04:15 ►

or to be more loving

01:04:17 ►

with the help of

01:04:19 ►

exogenous agents and so on.

01:04:22 ►

So, you know, are we going to come together

01:04:24 ►

drugs for medicines

01:04:25 ►

with drugs as basic human rights

01:04:27 ►

to explore your own nature?

01:04:29 ►

And I think that those will develop,

01:04:32 ►

but I think that our culture

01:04:33 ►

will do better at resisting

01:04:35 ►

everybody’s basic human right

01:04:38 ►

to alter their consciousness

01:04:39 ►

than they will drugs for medicine.

01:04:41 ►

They’ll also do,

01:04:43 ►

and in the middle is,

01:04:44 ►

drugs for religious purposes They’ll also do, and in the middle is drugs for religious purposes

01:04:45 ►

by organized religion.

01:04:48 ►

So we have the Native American church

01:04:50 ►

used with peyote, but that doesn’t mean that I can

01:04:52 ►

go get

01:04:54 ►

mescaline or grow peyote

01:04:55 ►

and I want to worship in my own particular way.

01:04:58 ►

That’s really threatening to the government

01:05:00 ►

is to have everybody their own religion

01:05:01 ►

having the basic core

01:05:04 ►

freedom. So I think that we will

01:05:06 ►

come together. We have

01:05:07 ►

massive amounts of fear and misinformation

01:05:09 ►

that we have to erode. And people

01:05:11 ►

really have put science as their religion

01:05:13 ►

more than any other things. If we can use

01:05:15 ►

science to chip away at the fears,

01:05:17 ►

the cognitive literary articles will become

01:05:19 ►

more and more

01:05:21 ►

appreciated by people. They’ll be less fearful

01:05:23 ►

of them. So I think that we need to make those arguments now

01:05:27 ►

as loudly as we can,

01:05:28 ►

but look forward mostly to the successes being made

01:05:32 ►

with the medical use.

01:05:34 ►

And that’s been the case with marijuana so far,

01:05:37 ►

if we look at it.

01:05:40 ►

Well, that’s a really good question.

01:05:41 ►

Will the pharmaceutical company actively work against us?

01:05:46 ►

And so it just so happens that a friend of mine that I went to college with,

01:05:49 ►

his dad is the number three person in five world’s largest pharmaceutical companies.

01:05:54 ►

And another friend of mine, one of my wife’s college friends,

01:05:57 ►

married a senior research scientist also at Pfizer.

01:06:00 ►

Pfizer developed Zoloft for PTSD.

01:06:03 ►

So when we started doing the MDMA study,

01:06:06 ►

we went over to their office for dinner,

01:06:07 ►

and I said, it’s kind of funny how I feel like

01:06:08 ►

I’m working against your interest now.

01:06:10 ►

We’re competitors.

01:06:11 ►

And he just laughed.

01:06:13 ►

He said, we do not take you seriously.

01:06:15 ►

You are not going to hurt us.

01:06:16 ►

You are getting nowhere.

01:06:18 ►

There’s so much opposition.

01:06:19 ►

We’re going to make so many billions of dollars.

01:06:22 ►

You know, you’re like insignificant.

01:06:24 ►

So I don’t think that they’re actively

01:06:26 ►

going to try to

01:06:27 ►

suppress what we’re doing. At some point,

01:06:29 ►

when it starts looking like it might work,

01:06:33 ►

then there will be.

01:06:34 ►

And so the early partnership for

01:06:35 ►

Drug Free America to keep certain drugs

01:06:38 ►

illegal was funded by alcohol, tobacco,

01:06:40 ►

and pharmaceutical industry. Until that became

01:06:42 ►

public, and that was too embarrassing.

01:06:43 ►

So there will be a certain kind of opposition,

01:06:45 ►

but at this stage,

01:06:47 ►

I mean,

01:06:47 ►

we might think,

01:06:48 ►

yeah,

01:06:49 ►

psychedelics,

01:06:49 ►

MDMA really works

01:06:50 ►

and we’ll be able to do it.

01:06:51 ►

And they think,

01:06:52 ►

first off,

01:06:53 ►

it doesn’t work,

01:06:53 ►

it makes you crazy,

01:06:54 ►

it gets your brain damaged,

01:06:55 ►

FDA will never approve of it.

01:06:57 ►

So right now,

01:06:59 ►

pharmaceutical money

01:06:59 ►

is not really accurate

01:07:00 ►

and we don’t do anything.

01:07:02 ►

But maybe at some point.

01:07:03 ►

But then,

01:07:03 ►

if we get to the integrity

01:07:04 ►

of the FDA, what kind of pressure will we get to the integrity of the FDA,

01:07:06 ►

what kind of pressure will we be able to put on the FDA

01:07:09 ►

and on Congress in other ways?

01:07:12 ►

I don’t know.

01:07:14 ►

But again, we have to really go for people wanting medicines

01:07:17 ►

for things that they are really scared about.

01:07:19 ►

So if we can say, you can have a more peaceful death,

01:07:23 ►

you can enjoy the last years of your life,

01:07:25 ►

you can get your life back after PTSD,

01:07:28 ►

I think that we’ll be able to win the public relations battle.

01:07:31 ►

Oh, yeah.

01:07:32 ►

Well, actually, the Ecstasy Rising show from Peter Jennings

01:07:35 ►

was this watershed event because it was actually

01:07:37 ►

honest analysis put on major network TV about ecstasy.

01:07:42 ►

And we worked with them for about two years on that show

01:07:47 ►

before they did it.

01:07:48 ►

And a lot of people wondered,

01:07:49 ►

did Peter Jennings ever do that with EMA?

01:07:52 ►

And I don’t know that he ever did.

01:07:54 ►

But I do know that other people working on the show

01:07:57 ►

had experience with it, knew what was going on.

01:07:59 ►

But more importantly, the research that we were able to show them

01:08:03 ►

convinced them.

01:08:04 ►

And so after that show came out, the drug czar filed a formal protest against ABC.

01:08:08 ►

After that, Congressman Mark Souter, who is mostly known as the rabid right-wing anti-drug guy,

01:08:14 ►

who made it so that if you have a drug conviction, you can’t get a student loan.

01:08:18 ►

You can be a rapist, a murderer, or any kind of criminal.

01:08:20 ►

You can go to college. The government will help you.

01:08:22 ►

But if you smoked a joint and got busted in high school, no money for you.

01:08:26 ►

So they formally protested ABC, but ABC actually worked with us on their response back to the

01:08:32 ►

drugstore’s office.

01:08:33 ►

They thought it was a controversial topic that had been mostly covered in one way.

01:08:40 ►

MTV and Oprah put out brain scans that were manipulated, graphically manipulated

01:08:46 ►

to show holes in the brain. MTV does not cause holes in your brain, but they showed pictures

01:08:50 ►

that were really scary. So Peter Jennings said, they viewed every other documentary

01:08:54 ►

on MTV and they said these are all more or less degrees of propaganda. And they were

01:09:00 ►

going to do the honest show. So that was for them, this idea that there was something that they could do that would be new

01:09:05 ►

and they took a lot of heat from it

01:09:07 ►

but as the show developed

01:09:09 ►

the ABC network got more and more confident

01:09:12 ►

so it kept being moved when it was

01:09:13 ►

going to be aired to more and more promising

01:09:16 ►

time slots

01:09:17 ►

and then, because we helped them so much

01:09:19 ►

they agreed that at the 6 o’clock news

01:09:22 ►

the world news tonight by Peter Jennings, they put a

01:09:23 ►

two minute special just about the PTSD study and interviewed Michael about it and put that at the 6 o’clock news, the World News Tonight by Peter Jennings, they put a two-minute special just about the PTSD study

01:09:27 ►

and interviewed Michael about it and put that on the news.

01:09:30 ►

And then earlier in that same day,

01:09:31 ►

and the day before, Peter Jennings was on Larry King

01:09:34 ►

talking about the show,

01:09:35 ►

and talking about how the main thing he learned

01:09:37 ►

was how willing the government was to use propaganda

01:09:40 ►

and how shocked he was by that.

01:09:42 ►

So there’s occasional breakthroughs through the media.

01:09:47 ►

It’s been fantastic.

01:09:49 ►

Absolutely fantastic.

01:09:49 ►

That was major for us

01:09:52 ►

in a lot of ways.

01:09:53 ►

And in fact,

01:09:53 ►

that’s what convinced Peter Lewis

01:09:56 ►

to give us a quarter million dollars

01:09:58 ►

to do MDMA research.

01:09:59 ►

Because he, again,

01:10:01 ►

is not that interested in MDMA for PTSD.

01:10:03 ►

He’s interested in ending the drug war.

01:10:05 ►

And one way to do that is

01:10:06 ►

to take the credibility of the government

01:10:08 ►

which has been used to scare parents

01:10:10 ►

and show parents

01:10:12 ►

that their credibility is not really what they thought it was.

01:10:15 ►

So that’s where the research

01:10:16 ►

has this link to the drug war.

01:10:18 ►

We show honest information

01:10:20 ►

that takes these exaggerated things

01:10:22 ►

and criticizes them from a scientific base.

01:10:26 ►

So I think we’re in a really good shape. We have

01:10:28 ►

the potential that has not existed in

01:10:30 ►

30 or 40 years to take psychedelics

01:10:32 ►

through the system.

01:10:34 ►

And I think actually if we blow it,

01:10:36 ►

it’s because of our own arrogance

01:10:37 ►

or impatience or

01:10:39 ►

who knows what other thing. I don’t know when I’m doing

01:10:42 ►

that. Actually,

01:10:43 ►

persistence will win the day.

01:10:46 ►

So I think we have a tremendous opportunity.

01:11:00 ►

Well, for those of you who are still with us,

01:11:03 ►

I’m sure you found Rick’s thoughts as provocative as I do.

01:11:07 ►

And I firmly believe that when my grandchildren pass their tests and get their psychedelic driver’s licenses someday,

01:11:13 ►

that they’re going to have Rick Doblin to thank for that.

01:11:16 ►

Personally, I think Rick’s contribution to the tribe is beyond measure.

01:11:21 ►

And if you’d like to show your own appreciation to Rick Rick why don’t you become a member of MAPS

01:11:25 ►

that is if you aren’t already a part of that important effort

01:11:29 ►

just go to www.maps.org

01:11:33 ►

and check out some of the ways you can get involved in their online community

01:11:36 ►

be sure to send them a little contribution

01:11:39 ►

they can use the money quite wisely I’m sure

01:11:41 ►

and I guess I should also mention our own website

01:11:44 ►

or to be more

01:11:45 ►

precise, I guess, our family of websites.

01:11:48 ►

If you go to our main homepage

01:11:50 ►

at matrixmasters.com, you’re going to

01:11:52 ►

find links to our alternative news

01:11:54 ►

summaries, our.netter

01:11:55 ►

experiment, and Planque Norte,

01:11:58 ►

which is the section of the site where our

01:11:59 ►

MP3s are located.

01:12:01 ►

If you’re only interested in the audio section, you can

01:12:03 ►

go there directly. That address is palenquenorte.org.

01:12:07 ►

P-A-L-E-N-Q-U-E-N-O-R-T-E dot org.

01:12:13 ►

At both of those sites, you’re also going to be able to find a link to our podcast page.

01:12:18 ►

That’s where we’ve got the RSS feed for this program and the others here in the Psychedelic Salon.

01:12:24 ►

Well, I guess that’s about it for today.

01:12:27 ►

I hope you’ll join us in our next salon when we’ll be hearing from John Hanna, the producer

01:12:32 ►

of the famous Mind States conferences.

01:12:35 ►

In John’s presentation for us, he’ll be talking about drug-inspired metaphysical concepts.

01:12:41 ►

Unless I miss my guess, you’re going to want to be with us for that one, too.

01:12:45 ►

So thanks again for joining us here in the psychedelic salon. And for now,

01:12:50 ►

this is Lorenzo signing off from cyberdelic space. Be well, my friends.

⚗️ alembic

Explorer

005 - Psychedelics_ Therapy, Recreation & Politics

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Program Notes

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